Unschooling Series with Paige Carter and Sarah Lovett : Week 7 - Rethinking Education When Safety Comes First

This week on The Empowered Parent Podcast I sat down with Sarah Lovett from Our PDA Kids and Paige Carter from Inclusive Oak. Both Sarah and Paige are parents of children with Pathological Demand Avoidance, or Persistent Demand for Autonomy, and both run successful services supporting families just like yours.

Sarah talked about burnout, why it happens, and how we can support children who find school overwhelming. She also shared gentle reminders about parent self care and why looking after yourself helps your child feel safe.

Paige shared her own real life stories with her children, Oaklan and Lacey. She spoke honestly about the hard moments, the small wins, and what has helped her family at home, in the community, and at school.

This episode is full of practical ideas and hope for parents who are struggling with everyday challenges like getting up, eating, brushing teeth, showering, going out, or returning to school.

Join us for a conversation that reminds you that you are not alone, and that small steps can make a big difference.

https://www.ourpdakids.com.au/

https://inclusiveoak.com.au/

https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/assistance-for-isolated-children-scheme

danabaltutis.com,  mytherapyhouse.com.au, https://mytherapyhouse.com.au/your-childs-therapy-journey/ https://www.danabaltutis.com/services

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Intros

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Hello everybody and welcome to the Empowered Parent Podcast. And I am delighted in welcoming back Paige Carter of the Inclusive Oak Again. And we've been talking over the last few weeks about deschooling, not unschooling, as well as the amazing Sarah Lovett from our PDA Kids. And Sarah is joining us today because Sarah and Paige work closely together. And I've had the pleasure to talk to Sarah on one of my previous podcasts before and actually meet her face to face in person. And I think Sarah is delivering an amazing one-to-one service for parents who are living with PDA in their homes. So welcome Sarah and welcome Paige.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Good evening.

What Autistic And PDA Burnout Looks Like

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Thank you so much for your time. And I always want to talk to people that experts in the field and both of you live with children who have PDA, as well as you support people with children and also adults who have PDA. So the first thing I'm going to talk about is, and I want to talk about because it's the end of the year and I'm seeing this a lot. Can we talk about, and maybe Sarah, I'll ask you first, is can what is there such a thing as uh autistic burnout and what does it mean?

Three Stages Of Burnout Explained

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Absolutely. So welcome everybody, and coming from Ghana Country today, so acknowledging all of the First Nations people who are joining us tonight. So autistic burnout or PDA burnout is when the nervous system of an individual stays in the heightened trauma state for a period of time that eventually the nervous system gives up and goes into a bit of hibernation as like, that's it, I'm exhausted, I can't run anymore at that heightened level, and it will go for its stipend at sleep time. So this looks differently, and we'll just talk about children, I guess. This looks differently in all children, and it can look like those trauma responses we've spoken about before being that fight, flight, freeze, fawn, and flop responses. But a lot of kids look like in the schooling space that they'll be pulling back from school, they'll start to revert to safe locations, which is nearly always going to be their home with their parents. They will remove themselves from friends, they may remove themselves from self-care tasks, eating, sleeping, toileting, definitely anything social. And they will revert to something they know that's safe, which for a lot of our children is gaming. So a safe activity, because then they can regain that full choice and control over their activity. And this, as I said, removing themselves from school where they lose some of that choice and control to try and regain it. Now, parents get very worried, obviously, when the signs and traits of autistic burnout and PDA burnout occur, because parents, so closely linked to their children, follow their children into burnout. Because if we're the co-regulators of our kiddos, then we will follow their nervous systems as well. So it can be very worrying. And yes, term four, we see a lot of it. We have to be careful though that we don't misdiagnose burnout, that people think when our kids get tired and overwhelmed, they must be in burnout. That's not what you're looking at. You're looking at a nervous system that needs a day off or needs, you know, two days off to reset and go again. Children in burnout don't have a go again. There is nothing left and they are going into a full regression of time. Paige and I have both experienced it with our own children. And depending on the age of the child when they go into burnout, it can last months, if not years. The younger the child, when they go into burnout, it might last three, six, nine, twelve months. If the children are much older in high school years, I've seen it last two years before they come out. There are stages of burnout. The first stage, like I said, look, let's call it, and Amanda Deacon speaks beautifully about this, the sort of three stages. Um, the first stage is gaming all day. So it's the stage where you've got nothing to give, you've got a no emotional capacity, there's zero window of tolerance. So you are sitting in a, I'm gonna do what I need 24-7, and I've got nothing to verbalize, don't want to shower, I barely eat. So they're in their rooms on their beds all day long. And you, as parents, are gonna provide safety above all else and give that to your child. The second stage, people think the first stage is the hardest, and it is because you don't know what's happening. But the second stage is the hardest, which we call curious with no capacity, which means the child will say to you, like, we should go swimming, and you're like, This is a great idea. Let's go. And they get two and a half minutes later and they're like, No, you picked the wrong towel and they're angry at you, and they've got nothing to give because they still have no capacity or limited capacity, but they want more. This is a good sign because it means they're coming out of that deep burnout, they're re-entering the world, but it's a very hard stage because you are gonna get hit really physically and emotionally trying to please your child when they can't please themselves because they still don't have the capacity. This lasts a bit longer. So let's assume that the deep burnout lasted three months. The curious with no capacity might last five to six months in a young primary school child. And then we're gonna come into the I'm gonna re-enter the world stage, where they want to do things again. This is the stage where the child may come to you and say, I want to go back to school because I miss PE class or I miss my friends. And which is why a lot of children who come into burnout and come out of the school system will re-enter it within 12 to 18 months if they are in the primary school age. If you have high school students, it's very different. It will depend on how long they've been in burnout. They potentially could have been in burnout for years and they've been masking it. That is a very different situation of children who do not want to re-enter the system because they are broken by it, and they also will need to learn to unmask. A lot of those children are females and they're undiagnosed. So then they have to understand their diagnosis, accept it, understand what it means for them. And there's a lot more to that. Plus, throw puberty on top of it. That's a lot more to that than teaching a six or seven-year-old about burnout, have some choice, move to low-demand parenting, parents make improvements, child starts to improve, child comes out of burnout, let's re-enter the school system with some greater understanding of what our needs are. For example, maybe we attend three or four days a week and we understand what our needs are now, opposed to what we did the first time around. So, yes, autistic burnout, PDA burnout is a thing, but it looks very different per families, which we discuss in sessions within my business about how that presents in your child and what that looks like, because it does look like something different for everyone. And parents have a significant effect on their children in the burnout space. Those who push their children when they are in burnout, hoping for more, their child will remain in burnout for longer. We have all made this mistake because we don't know what true low demand looks like until you are in it with your child. And then at what point do you re-engage some boundary only when the child has the capacity to engage that boundary with you, which is in phase two, the curious with no capacity.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

I love that, Sarah. And Paige, you were you were agreeing there that the the second stage is the hardest. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yes, absolutely. I really believe that's where we are with Oakland now. Um, which I learned from Sarah because I messaged her like, what is going on? Like he wants to do this, but it's just not working. When she and that's when she explained all of this to me, but about the curi curiosity about capacity. Yeah, it's really hard because he is still spending, you know, most of his days gaming, but we are having more of the I'm bored. I w like I want to go do this, but then I can't take him to do it on my own because then I take him and it is not successful. Um then you then you know then the mum guilt sits with that as well because you're like, I tried really hard and he finally wanted to and it's it still wasn't enough. Do you know what I mean? Like it it's it's it's a really hard thing as a mum as well to because you you just want to give your kid what they want, right? Especially when you know that they've struggled so hard for so long. You just want to make them happy and you try to do what they want to do and it doesn't work. It's really like heartbreaking space to be in.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

And those who are in that stage, which people whose kids are in burnout will mostly be in phase two, it's about scaffolding the activity and maybe doing a section of it. So if they're like, we should go get ice creams, you're like, that's a great idea. Let's have a look on Google Maps first and figure out what shop we should go to to make sure it's one, to make sure it's open. And like, should we ring them and check they have the flavor? Or like, how do we drive there opposed to ride our bikes there? So then we're tired and we can refuse to ride back. And how do we manage that? Or do we do it on a Saturday when maybe a second parent might be available so that we can pick us up if it goes badly, or we try and scaffold as best we can, or maybe we make cupcakes in the house so we get a treat that's dopamine-seeking, but we don't get the ice cream. So it can be very hit and miss, but it is very hard on parents. And parents make a lot of mistakes in this stage because you see some capacity, you're like, yes, they must be ready to go back to school. And we push a little bit too hard sometimes, or we think like maybe they could do a little bit of homeschooling because I applied, but I haven't done anything yet because they couldn't do it. So maybe I'll give them a bit of a push now and see if they want to go to the library and do some reading with me. And it drives the child back away from us into potentially deep burnout, or that they're still not ready for re-engagement in the learning space. Coming into Curies with no capacity is not about learning yet. It's still about fun and what fun looked like before and what might look like now.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

That's great, Sarah. And I was just thinking when you were talking, and then Paige was also reinforcing this. I was thinking about the parents and the mindset, right? So, because our society is driven by production and results, and you know, our whole schooling system is based on that. We're all raised on that. How do you work with parents to sit with that angst and also, you know, sometimes that guilt, sometimes the shame from their parents or their family members comes in. How do you support families in that?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

We have a very, I guess that we talked about that a lot in sessions, and it helps that a lot of my staff and myself have all homeschooled. So we are very much used to neighbors and friends and grandparents having very strong opinions on what it's like to homeschool a child and why it would be, especially because we know 70 to 80% of PDA children are twice exceptional. So you're choosing to homeschool a very intelligent child and what's perceived as ruining their academic future. So I guess I very clearly explain that there's a mental health concern going on when a child goes into burnout, and there's some very real traits that are coming out of our kids, such as full withdrawal from the world, zero self-care. Depending on the age of the child, there can be self-harm, there can be suicidal ideation, significant mental health concern. If someone was sitting there and cutting their wrists, everyone would think that removing the child from school and focusing on their mental health was really important. But because our children are in a visible disability, no one can see the anxiety inside their body, no one wants to talk about the realities of withdrawing this child. So I try and make the comparison very clearly about what the child's going through, just even though you can't see it. And that we can leave them in school and we're going to experience those significantly negative traits when they're a teenager. I've seen that over and over again. Or we can withdraw them, give them some space, do some homeschooling, and we're going to see a child most likely re-enter the school system because that's what the stats tell me, at least from my families that I support, that a very large percentage of kids that come out go back in. Like Paige said, the kids get bored. They're like, oh, I sort of don't need to do this gaming anymore. That was my safety blanket. I'm sort of a bit over that now. I want to do this or I want to do this. That continues to like, I want to have friends again. I want to do this. I wanted to run away from them to start with, but I want to re-engage. You'd be like, okay. And we can have those conversations. What does that look like for you? Not just like, excellent, let's go back to school so we can all go back to work and earn money again. It's not that simple. We have to go slow because it's not about jamming them back into school. And the my favorite line in the business is this is the long journey. This is the longevity of the academic journey. I don't care if your child's in reception or kindergarten or in year 11, your child will learn when they're ready to learn. They are all smart kids. They will get there when they're ready. We have to get our minds out of this social model of children in year four, learn year four work. And in year five, they learn year five work because children will learn when they're up to it. And if your child is struggling in a multitude of different ways, you're not going to make them learn if you just push them harder. If you support them and provide safety, especially in the PDA space, your child will thrive. But if you don't do the hard work and ignore the misunderstanding and community about when children should thrive, then they will absolutely fail. So we need to really advocate for our children in the right way, which is the needs of the child, not the needs of the system, which is other people telling us that our children are not going to be able to go to university or get jobs if they don't go to school. I have two very intelligent young twins and I have three stepkids who are all doing fine, as all PDA is, and all have very different journeys within the school system, all of them, including homeschooling, at one point within their journey. It's fine. It's a positive. I see it as a significant positive, especially for my two twins, having been home, the homeschooling primary parent for them, that it did nothing but benefits their understanding of their own neurodivergence and what school looks like for them in the safe space.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Paige, you were agreeing. Yeah, I I just I guess I come from a and I worked with Sarah on a side that's different, and Sarah explained to me it's less common. So Oakland doesn't quite have an intellectual disability from what we can tell, but he's very close to being able to being being diagnosed with an intellectual disability. And Sarah explained to me that that's actually kind of not the norm. Like she said, a lot of PDAs are twice exceptional. I wondered if you could talk a bit about that, Sarah, because I imagine there are still like lots of families out there experiencing what I'm experiencing with Oakland and probably unable to find a lot of information on it because it isn't, you know, the norm.

Parenting Phase Two: Curious, No Capacity

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Yeah, I think we'll we'll talk about that in two sides. So not the one Paige is talking about. Firstly, that a lot of kids we will know get the diagnosis of GDG standing for global developmental delay. So a lot of kids come to me with a diagnosis meaning this is the new term for an intellectual disability meaning an IQ below 70. A lot of kids come in at that and their parents say, like, I don't really know why they've got that, because they're really smart kids, because that is standardized testing. So the test at whatever age it was done, because a lot of PDAs will refuse to do bits and pieces of the test, came back showing an intellectual disability. The kid's actually gifted, but they've been diagnosed with intellectual disability. So I think it's important that parents don't just take that. If you see something different in your child, that you don't just be like, oh, well, I guess they're struggling. And then you think socially they struggle, so they must. I don't, I see that a lot. That I'm like, uh, that's actually a gifted kid. They may not be able to sit the math test in class, but you ask them the question in English at home, and they're an extremely bright, well-read child off their own bat. They've taught themselves in that PDA control and choice space. So that's the first thing that people shouldn't just assume their child has a global developmental delay because a piece of paperwork says that it does. In Paige's case, yes, I don't have that many families at all that sit in this space. I am seeing more and more given that our business is expanding, that I'm seeing a few more come in. I think it's about, especially like we talk about Oakland as the example, that there's multi-layers to the disability there. So PDA is absolutely part of the diagnosis, but there's other things going on. So when we work with families that have a child like Oakland, we have to engage the other therapy team, which is what we've done with Paige and her family, because it's not as simple as me coming in and saying, well, this is the PDA space. You just need to focus on this and everything's going to be fine if you just do low demand, because there are other things going on for children when they are sitting in an intellectual space like Oakland is. So we need to make sure that the, especially from speech around the communication of what that is like for Oakland, very important space. So I think I was lucky enough to get to work very closely with his speechy to make sure that the PDA information and strategies aligned to the speech strategy so that we didn't come to parents and make them do all these different things and break the parents, that they have to align and one inclusive moment of how we work with the child.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

And looking at the whole profile of the child, right? And not just in segments. The other thing I'm thinking of as you are talking, Sarah, and I'm thinking of a couple of families that I have that their children do present with PDA, is that I can hear the parents going homeschooling. I don't have energy for that. How am I going to cope with that? Is that a forever thing? I I'm I'm at burnout myself. What do I do? How what could you say to parents who are thinking these thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 20:55

I will say that I was I was them. I was the exact parent that they were in burnout saying, I don't want to be a teacher, I didn't choose to be one, I don't, I don't want to do this. But the realities of the situation is a lot of us don't choose it, it chooses us. So there was no other choice. I had a child that refused to leave the house, that would scream when I tried to get him in the car, that wouldn't get dressed. And eventually I had no other choice because I couldn't get him to go to school, that it chose me. And in retrospect, the signs were there, and I wasn't willing to open my eyes to them because I didn't want to do it. And everyone I knew went to school. So that was what he was. And he's a smart kid. He was in one of the best schools in Adelaide. This is what was going to happen. And I wasn't willing at that stage to give my career away, which I had to in the end anyway. But it bred this business. So I think parents get very stuck, and I've supported many mums, especially as the ones who a lot of the time have to give their careers away. There's a lot of grief with that. And that's okay. It's okay to grieve that and to talk through that in our sessions as well, because that's part of the battle here is not just about we're willing to do whatever we need for our children, but what about us? What is that gonna look like? And everyone's question is how long is this gonna last? It's an important question if parents ask it, because how you thrive in this space is to not ask that question, to understand that radical acceptance in the PDA space is understanding that I don't know how long it's gonna last and no one can predict what that's gonna be. But if you do the work and understand low demand and truly live in a low demand space with your child, they will do well. You I can't tell you how long that will take because everyone is different. But so many of the kids, I thought, wow, these kids are like some very hard families we've worked with, and like this kid's never gonna go back to school. They're all back in school. Like, even I get surprised, and I love that I do, because the parents have gone and done what they needed to do. And yes, none of us are ignoring the financial aspect that it takes to homeschool a child, or like you say, when you're being either physically attacked by your child or you're having real trauma from your child, why would you choose to homeschool that child? It's because a lot of the behaviors or the expressions of PDA we see, it will disappear or lessen significantly when you homeschool. Because if we know that PDA kids, the number one demand for them is school. So if you remove the number one demand out of their life, you're going to see a change of behavior in your child. That we see time and time again. I saw it with my own son. It was a it was immediate, like within weeks of me taking him out of school. What do you know? All of a sudden, exactly. And we're talking about like both our boys can be highly violent in that very, very heightened state. Naturally, they are not those kids, but being in the system at those young ages drove them to their trauma response consistently. And we as parents who kept them in that system kept them in that heightened state. So the kindness to take them out and say, like, you know what, this is not working. We know it's not working. Your actions tell us that's not working. Why don't we try something else? Nothing is permanent. If homeschooling didn't work, I could have put him back in. When he wanted to go back in, he put himself back in. A lot of kids will do that. They're like, I think I'm going to go to school. Not what you choose, but I'm going to choose my own school. And they go and do it themselves. These are smart kids. So we don't need to be so scared. And there is our service and other services there to help you and to support writing applications. And what does that mean in multiple states? And how do you actually logistically homeschool a kid that you perceive doesn't want to learn or talk to you? That's not actually what's happening. It just means they're in deep burnout and you need to be patient. And as someone who is not patient at all, I get it. It's incredibly hard to be patient. But forcing your child to do something is not a kindness. Being patient and stepping back is the kindness that it's it's a skill that we have to learn, but we are better parents for it. I'm a better parent for homeschooling my kids 20 times over than I was when they were both in full-time school.

Mindset Shifts And Family Pressure

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, same. And and I guess that comes too, that really leads nicely into homeschooling, unschooling, deschooling. So it's not like you go out of school and you go, right, I've got to go onto the homeschool group, I've got to get download the curriculum. Let's go, let's do maths now, let's do. Is that what it's like?

SPEAKER_02 25:13

You don't think that's what it's like. It's not like that. And we all make those same mistakes and be like, I'm the best parent ever. I'm gonna go download everything. I'm gonna make this kid so well educated, I'm gonna prove the system is broken. And then we have a nice reality check that all of the efforts, all we've done is replicate what school did. We tried to force the child to educate in the traditional form of education, and no, it didn't work. And what do you know? But that's all learning for parents, and that's okay. I made the same mistakes too. Paige made them too, and that's okay. It's not a fault of ours. It means that we care for our children. We're trying to do the right thing, and some of the learning that they are doing, we have to learn too. Unless you are a teacher, you may, or if you are, you're in a hard basket because you've got to unlearn everything. But if you're not a teacher already, you have to learn how to be one. But you actually don't need to learn how to be a teacher. You just need to learn how to be kind to your child and respect them at a level and understand what they need. So it's not like you have to go and learn how to be a teacher. We should also make sure we say that it's not like you go from, oh, they're struggling in the school system a bit. I'm gonna completely go to homeschooling. There are like 10 steps between those two points. So when your child starts to struggle at school, you might do some PDA training in the school with the classroom teacher and hopefully the larger cohort. Then we might look at more flexible accommodations. What does that look like? A lot of parents will change schools because it might be the specific school or it might be the system of school, and it doesn't matter what school you go to, that the dash is done. Then you might go to a reduced timetable. A lot of PDA children on reduced timetables, like three to four days a week or half days, it's different for every child. Then you might move to online schooling if the child is seeking that, something like inventorium or open access if you're in South Australia. Then the last sort of the last resort is homeschooling. Some parents will jump to homeschooling. I didn't try any of that stuff. I'm like, nope, he's out, I'm taking it, and I'm going homeschooling. But there are steps. So parents don't have to think if you come and see us, we're gonna be like, well, your child needs to homeschool, you have to take them out. When you do start homeschooling, yes, there is a process. To get some of the wording correct, de-schooling is what you do when you take your child out of school. Deschooling helps your child um heal from the trauma of the system of what they were not prepared or ready to do. So if a teacher would make them sit down at certain times and they have to do subjects at certain times, we're trying to help them understand that that is done for their life at the moment. And we're going to de-school them to try and provide some safety around learning because school is what they link to learning, which is why they don't want to learn with you. But we're trying to pull those two things apart and say school might have had a bad experience, but learning is awesome. The way you do this is by having fun because children don't realize that learning is fun when it's done in a way that suits the child. So deschooling is about showing a child that without verbalizing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Sarah, will that be like a gaming all day? Could that look like gaming all day?

SPEAKER_02 28:02

To start with, it probably will because that's those two things are different in regards to the burnout space. So gaming all day is what a lot of children do. Then it's like they're holding their safety blanket over their head and they don't have any capacity for anything else. So you do not remove a child from school who's in burnout and assume you're going to do any schooling immediately because all you're doing is replicating the trauma they've already experienced with a teacher and trying to push it into your home environment. So that's actually going to traumatize the child further. You will know when the child is ready to learn. They will tell you. And I don't mean learn like sit at a table. So now we move from, we understand what de schooling is. Homeschooling is the official term of what you do when you remove a child from school. And you, as the parent, take responsibility to educate the child. You sign forms in every state to say you are now a homeschooling parent. But that's the generic term for everybody who educates at home. PDA parents most likely will not homeschool whilst you are doing homeschooling. The type of education you do is not going to be homeschooling. It's going to be unschooling, which is child-led modality of learning. As in, the child chooses an activity like I love cupcakes. And you're like, this is a great idea. Let's make cupcakes together. And we read the box to back of the ingredients together and we tick the English box and we help them measure out ingredients and we tick the math box and we do some cooking and we talk about the ovens hot and why sometimes is it hot and cold and we talk about Celsius and Fahrenheit and we've ticked the science box all within a 30-minute activity. And we put that information into our homeschooling notes and we keep going forward. And those activities, when you start to become a homeschooling parent in the unschooling modality, you take your child's interests and you let it flourish and they drive what we learn. And it expands as the child comes out of burnout, because the two things are very closely linked, it starts to expand. So it might look like Lego or it looks like Minecraft or movies or ice cream. My kids are all about ice cream and donuts. I can do a million things with ice cream and donuts because I had no choice but to do that. And then we would cut the donuts up and we would talk about fractions and it was cool. And then we'd buy more 20 more donuts and cut those ones up and make towers and you know, engineering tasks. It can be anything because learning is supposed to be fun. And it used to be fun when they were not in burnout, and we're trying to show them that it can be fun again.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

And if someone's listening, so they're listening and they're going, Wow, Sarah and Paige, you guys know how to do it so well. How would you even think of fractions with a donor? I don't even know what a fraction is. I can't remember what a fraction is. You know, how I guess like I keep thinking, just go with the flow and trust the process. Is that right? And just follow your child's lead and it will come. Your child will lead you to where they need to be.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

For Oakland, we so he is a big gamer. We're very much still in that gaming space, but I've noticed as he comes kind of out of that severe burnout and into the oh my goodness, it's gone out of my head. Curiosity without capacity. Curiosity without capacity, he is starting to show interest in learning in his own way. So a lot of the time with his games, he might need us to type something or to read something. I think we did speak about this um on the podcast. He he would say to me, Oh, I know that letter, that's uh whatever, P. All right, like and it he would just point them out himself and be interested in doing that, or would be interested in me just kind of showing him the letters and him pressing them, or you know, so it's just little ways that was really cool for him to just bring in that little bit of learning in his own way.

Twice Exceptionality And Misdiagnosis

SPEAKER_02 31:40

And obviously, as parents, we gain some capacity when our children start to do well. So then the burnout wear-in starts to improve. So, like in that exact example, I'd be like, Oh, where's the O? And I'd pretend I couldn't find it and try and get my kid to find it first. And I'd be like, We should put these letters on the fridge, and I would buy some magnets and I'd jam them on the fridge, and we'd be like, when I'm trying to cook dinner, I'd be like, Let's make some silly words, and they'd write poo and you know, all this. Who cares? Because it's teaching, like, I'm like, oh, this diagraph, this is a silly, these are two O's, they look like glasses, and I just try and make fun of learning. And then they remember that. These are smart kids, they will make connotation between what I teach and what they learn. And then, like you say, gaming and typing in Minecraft is a really common one. But I think you just try and go with the flow and try to forget that you're trying to educate your child. Every time I would try and be like, oh, this is a great suggestion. Elijah would see it in my eyes and be like, I don't want to learn today. And I'd be like, No, we're not learning. And it would be too obvious that I was trying to educate. When I just relaxed and had fun with my child, it went much better. So some days he loved leaving the house, the rare time it happened, like, let's go to the museum. And we go the same three exhibits all the time. And I'm like, you know what? It's a starting point. It's not supposed to be like a science. My kid's a genius, so therefore he has to go and learn everything. It's about re-engaging the world because this is not just about the educational aspect, this is about the living aspect where my son has to learn that if he wants to go out in the world, that I am a safe person. And then when he gets scared, I'm right there. And that when someone comes near, stands near him at the red light, it's okay. And if they bother you with noise, then you can step away from them. So it's also about like, how do you regulate in the community and what does that look like? And how do you ask the person at Kohl's to pay for something? And that sort of stuff he started to love. So he wanted to food shop and he'd be like, Mom, give me$20. I'm gonna go pick a meet pick meals for myself. I'm like, this is a great idea. Mate, take that piece of paper and write down all the amounts. And he just picks six bags of lollies. And I'm like, this is great. Like, I don't care because he's choosing his activity, opposed to me being like, right, why don't you go and choose three vegetables and two meats? Like, no, that's how I want to do it. He's made his own direction. I need to. To follow that direction, it makes him safe. He fully regulates. And then he asks me again tomorrow, can we do the same thing and again and again? And here we come out of burnout. Because now learning's the best fun ever. Mum's awesome, and we're going to keep going forward. Now, parents will hear me and be like, that's not happening. I've tried. If you've tried and it hasn't happened, it means your child's not ready. And that's okay. I have kids, and my own son space set six months in the house before he would leave anywhere outside, even the backyard. You need to be patient and do things in the house with the children that can be anything. We played Monopoly. My son loves Monopoly because he likes money. So we just play with the money and it doesn't matter. Who cares? We just stack it up and throw it in the air. It doesn't matter. You don't have not everything has to have a purpose. When my daughter was in burnout, we did a significant amount of art and music because that's what drove her. And it led to her understanding her neurodivergence and to following neurodivergent artists on YouTube and things that I would never have thought to encourage her to do. But it's what she wanted in very small sections. We should also mention that we don't sit between nine and three and homeschool. To start with, it was like a 30-second off-handed conversation Did you know that the dinosaurs did this? And like, wow, I didn't know that. Should we look it up in the encyclopedia? I hate you, Mum, get away from me. Okay, cool. And it expanded and got more and more. Before my daughter returned to school, she was doing one hour a day, four days a week. And I thought, this is going great. And then she's like, I think I'm going to go back to school. And I'm like, wow, that's six hours a day, five days a week. This is going to be tricky. But children will choose their own path and we scaffold a support around that.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

And I love that. And as I'm listening to you guys, I'm thinking, yes, the children are learning, but the parents are learning just as much, if not more.

unknown 35:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Right? I mean, it is.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

It's okay not to know. I meant to come back to your question when you said, like, I don't know how to do that. It's okay if you don't know. Like, there's plenty of stuff that my son taught me in learning. He became a bit of a geography nut and taught himself all the flags of the world and the countries of the world. I don't know that. And we built a game, I built, bought him a game on it. So I followed his interest and I bought a card game that has all the flags, and we would play against each other. And I know apparently like 60 flags of the world, which I think is very good. He knows 200. And that's okay because there were other things I did know. I'd be like, this is cool. I didn't realize, but he couldn't tell me the continence of where the countries were. So I was able to teach him and he could teach me. So there's always something new to learn. My daughter decided to like Greek mythology. I'm like, I don't know anything about that. Can't you be interested in netball? Because that's easy. I got that one down. But it doesn't work like that. So if you are truly letting your child lead you, then if we talk about equalizing behavior in the PDA space, let them lead. Let them lead you and see where it goes. Even if their topics are boring. Plenty of our kids like stuff that we don't like. That's okay. It doesn't mean they're going to like it forever. We know what monotropic kids go like, and then they change direction and they change direction. So let them lead, and you will have a much easier time in the homeschooling space.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Thanks. Thanks for that, Sarah. Paige, just want to go to you. How long did it take for you to learn that skill? I'm still learning. But do you feel like you're more flexible, adaptable? You can go with the flow.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

I I've definitely gotten a lot better with it, but still every day I I have to be really conscious of it. It's a very conscious decision now. Like I really like it's something that I'm just letting myself learn every day. And I I still make mistakes, right? Like I still do things I think, why did I do that? Like that was that was not what I should have done. And I often think of the the conversations that Sarah and I have had and the things that she's taught me and thought, how could I do that next time or whatever? I think it's important not to put the pressure on yourself to be perfect. And Sarah spoke a lot about this with me. Like you're gonna make mistakes, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

And I think that's where the coaching, I mean, NDIS doesn't like that word, but this is what it is it's training, learning, and having a champion on your side to just cue into. So, like for you, Paige, it's Sarah, that you can just go, oh, I just felt really weird doing that, and how could I do it? It's just nice to have someone on the other side reinforcing what you're doing or giving you some ideas. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yeah, yeah. I I really looked, especially when we were really kind of in the thick of it, I just really looked forward to my appointments with Sarah every month because I knew that I could just blur everything that happened and kind of talk through them. And the more that I did that, the more I became more confident in in what I was doing. And now the more conscious I am each time I make a decision and each time something happens, I'm like, yep, okay, so I'll do this. And it's just about moment by moment. And I think taking a second to actually think before reacting has been really important as well. But then also something that uh I spoke a lot about with Sarah, and I still feel that it's quite tricky in this space is Oakland has a sister who is still in school and uh she's autistic, PDA, ADHD as well. But and I know a lot of my members in my membership and staff struggle with this as well is uh trying to do the right thing by both children. It can be so tricky because something that's really important, and this was the example that I spoke to Sarah about a lot, is Lacey is really important for Lacey to be at school on time. For her, that's really important. She hates being late. But getting Oakland to leave the house to get there on time. I mean, it was awful. It was awful for all of us. Lacey and I would be panicking coming the time that we knew we had to tell him it was time to go because we knew that what was coming. And it it was just so hard to keep both kids happy, and that's still an everyday struggle in our house. But I think it's just uh accepting in your mind that sometimes Oakland is going to become dysregulated, but and uh we just do our best to manage that. But you I've got two kids to uh to work with here, um, and it can't always be Oakland's way. Yeah, as much as we do try our best, and we you know we we do the low demand, we we've got him home from school, all of that unfortunately, as much as we do try, and we really do, it can't always be his way.

Homeschool Fears, Realities, And Steps

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Can you talk to that, Sarah? Absolutely, because I have two kids myself, but it was exactly the same when we did it. Um, I should also say when Paige said of what benefits it has to talk to someone, also I make constant mistakes myself. Like this is parenting, right? Parenting is incredibly hard. It's the hardest job any of us ever do. And we're always learning. You never stop learning. If you've stopped learning, you are absolutely going to make mistakes because you've decided that what you already know is the answers when we know that PDA has constantly changed on us to make it nice and interesting. So it's important to validate the experiences of parents when they make mistakes, it's like, yeah, I've made the exact same mistake. That's cool, so that people have a safe space to talk because only when parents are truly open enough to really see where the floors are sitting, then they will start to make the actual change and awareness they need to, especially when parents are discovering their own neurodivergence. Yes, it was difficult to get Elijah out of the house when Matilda was still going to school as well. And it's not that we all have massive support networks where we can just invite grandparents and neighbors over to help us all the time. When you're talking about a daily activity, we would try different things. But like Paige said, it was about understanding that sometimes Elijah got what he needed and other times Matilda got what she needed. And we tried to navigate that the best we could. If you are in a two-parent family, we do what's called divide and conquer as much as we can, which means one parent, one child, and we go in different directions. There's a lot of two-car activities, but we're all going to the same place to try and give both children the needs met as needed. We have to be aware that we're not traumatizing the non-focal point of the burnout child, especially if you have, like both Paige and I have, a second autistic PDA child who is the female who is masking heavily, that the male child is getting the attention because they're extroverted, and then the female child is introverted so they can cope better. That's not actually what's going on. And we're both very aware of that. So to try and explain that to children and to be honest, to be like, mate, I know we just need to drop Lacey and then we're going to come back and do this. Here's your blanket, here's your iPad, here's your snacks, this is what you need. Lace, we're five minutes late, but I'm doing the best I can. And we try and get children to understand each other's needs. We're talking about sibling interaction. The more we can help them understand each other's needs, they will understand what's going on. But yes, it's very hard in some moments. But like Paige said, we do the best that we can and we don't fault ourselves with that because we don't want to be ourselves traumatized every morning because then we've still got to turn around and homeschool little ones. So it can be very difficult, but it is what it is. If that's the reality of the situation you're living, then we find our ways. And Paige and I have spoken about different ways that she could try it, and we try different things and we see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

And sometimes it sticks one day, but not another day. And I guess I really, really love, Sarah, you know, as a speechy, I'm listening and I'm going, I love the way that you're naming for each other because sometimes kids can't see the other's perspective, and that is the the the way the game's played, right? So it's up to us as adults to support children to see each other's perspective. And they may not want to, but it's great to name what's happening in that moment for each of them.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

So just sorry, but if I may, just on that point, even a lot of people come to us and say the kids don't like each other. They don't know how to get along anymore. And when children of either a maturity age or chronological age that they're able to, like I've taught my daughter low-demand strategies to engage her brother so that when he escalates, instead of being mad at him and yelling at him, which is going to only end one way, I'll say to her, why don't you say, if you don't want to play anymore, say like, I just need to quickly go to the toilet. And then you come to me and say, Mom, I need some help navigating this. And I will be like, hey, mate, why don't we do this and distract, go him this direction? She can go to her room. And then she'll come to me and be like, oh my gosh, it worked. And I'm like, it did work. And it also now has helped her when she's at school with her friends that she might be able to navigate a different situation because she's actually learning helpful social skills from an autistic PA's point of view when she may not get her way or someone else isn't getting theirs, and she's got this strong social justice push. So some of this stuff can be taught, and Lacey can be taught about how to navigate around oak, but then we can't over-pressure our children. So there is always more we can do in little bits and pieces when children are ready, and that's also something we discuss.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

I love that. I love that. Paige, is there anything you'd like to say?

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Uh no, I just yeah, I just have learned so all of that stuff I've learned from watching me, Sarah, it's just been so helpful. Sarah, I just want to I was very guilty of I don't know how to word it about that. Lacey always because was always the one that was missing out or giving things up for Oakland because it was just so hard to make sure things were you know not so he right, so he didn't have a meltdown often that meant that Lacey missed out. I think it was just really hard to navigate that, but learning, you know, these small ways around it has been really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

So, Sarah, for you, do you talk to someone? Like you all these families talk to you, and you are navigating your own life, your own business, your own family. Do you have someone that you talk to?

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Yes, the the staff and I actually have a group survision that we all sit because we are all PDA parents, um, we started um groups of vision where we can talk about our client base of learnings for each other that help in some of the more complicated cases we might have, but also about we all talk about how our own kids are going. And it's also like Paige said, like, you know, oak may dysregulate, but it's okay when our kids dysregulate. We'll I'll come on and be like, Tills just had a shocker. High fives, everyone. Like it's the reality of this, and that's okay. We're not gonna be like, oh, I must have done something wrong because I've done she's had had a struggle this morning. She's gone back to school and she's just killing it. So I'm like, good, good job, Tills. And if you're struggling this morning, that's okay. Let's own our feelings and we talk about that as staff. So I guess I'm very lucky that all of my staff are autistic PDAers themselves with PDA children. So we have a very good lived experience base, and we can talk very openly with each other about how our own children are doing and help each other, given that all of the staff saw me at one time. That's how I've hired stuff from within my own client base. And that, you know, we can talk about what it looks like, given that some of us have older children, that what it may look like and the similarities and differences between our kids and the and the likely trajectory of what's going to happen. So I think I know my own partner is obviously a PDA, so I talked to them. But here I think it's okay. Like I will talk openly in sessions with lots of my families about my own children and about when they're doing well. Like a lot of parents of mine knew that Matilda was homeschooling, and I was very excited when she went back to school in term four, like five or six weeks ago, because she drove that herself and that's what she wanted. And but I was very open, like if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

But no, this is what she drove. And yeah, no, I'm hearing it more and more because Paige, I heard it from you when we've been talking over the weeks that the community is so important. Sarah, you're you've got community. I know my therapy house, I've hired the people that I need from my community, and we we're all together. And and I think, you know, if someone's listening right now, just to reach out, right, to someone who understands, which I guess takes me to one of my last questions. I could talk here all night. Self-care, self-care for you guys, and also self-care for other people that are listening who are already really, really struggling with their time. They're thinking about this homeschooling, unschooling, deschooling. They've got maybe they've got to go to work because of financials. Like, how do you fit it in? How do you how are you authentic to yourself? And what happens when you just cannot get out of bed?

Deschooling And Unschooling In Practice

SPEAKER_02 48:31

There is multiple services that are required here. It's not uncommon that I will encourage parents to see their own psychologist if they're in a depressive state. Like I said, there is a lot of parents who are undiagnosed neurodivergence because from the era that I have come from, none of us were diagnosed. We were all diagnosed late because that wasn't around for women, especially when we were children. So there's a lot of that as a starting point to people to understand who you are, which will really help with that journey for yourself. There's a community of people who are willing to help you and want to help you. The homeschooling network is getting larger and larger. There are some excellent resources. You can see any of our services that will help you with the like webinars to understand what homeschooling is to start with and some links on where you might look. The home education office themselves in South Australia, I know, can be very helpful with links to where to start as well, of ideas. There is an exorbitant amount of information online because homeschooling all across the world has gotten larger and larger since COVID, let alone the sadly the school system is failing many of our neurodivergent families. So there are a lot of neurodivergent families who homeschool their children for a period of time, if not longer. So I think the information is there. Plus, we're adding to it. So whilst some of the stuff I did with Elijah, I didn't read anywhere. I just did what Elijah liked doing. And now I help other parents give examples of that. And parents tell me what they do with their own kids. Like I have a little one who only likes AFL. The only thing he likes is the Geelong football team. And we've built an entire homeschooling project just around the Geelong AFL team. Like it's not impossible to do it off anything. We just need to do it calmly and slowly. So I think there are resources there. Things like the Home Education Network, H-E-N, is based in Victoria. There is an excellent website with so many good ideas on there. Facebook has some excellent groups. There is like homeschooling resources, PDA Australia Homeschooling. There is so many things you can jump on to get ideas. I didn't do it because I wanted to make people on it. There are social groups, but my kids wouldn't do that. But it was just to get ideas and to encourage me to think outside the box. And because so many of us are going to go exactly to what we know when we went to school and what our kids do at school. And that's not what you need to be doing. You need to do the opposite of that. So when you think, oh, let's sit together and read a book, and a child hates reading, how do you do that differently? My son would just read backwards just to annoy me. And it did annoy me, but it's what he wanted to do, so I learned to go with it. So I guess there are options like that. In regards to self-care, as much as self-care is so important.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

So Sarah, before we go to self-care, what about funding available for homeschooling?

SPEAKER_02 51:08

Yes, so there is a funding packet. So homeschooling is state-based, so you will apply through your states, but funding for homeschooling is federal-based. So it's called AIC, Assistance for Isolated Children. You apply through it through Centerlink. You qualify for AIC funding if your child is remote and regional or has a diagnosed disability. So you have to have an autism diagnosis to be qualified to get the funding that's associated to homeschooling. You don't just get it because you're a homeschooling student, which is an important point. The funding is based on per term. It's currently sitting at about$1,300 a term. It's not means tested. You get it regardless. And you do not have to use it for homeschooling. You can choose to, or you can pay your mortgage with it. You can do anything. So you don't have to prove what you do with it. You have to apply annually for it. And at the end of each year, you get a form that says, Are you going to continue homeschooling? And they're trying to streamline that process, which is going very well. But the first time, it's a two-form step. There's the AIC form, and because our children have disability, there is a second medical form that you will also need a GP or pediatrician to sign a section of it. I can provide.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

So you have to be registered for homeschooling first. Is that a good idea?

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Yes, thank you, Pai. So you must have a, you have to attach your I've been approved for homeschooling. But in saying that, it is backdated to the day that you applied. So if you apply for homeschooling at the beginning of a school year, but you don't get around to AIC till June, they will backpay you to the beginning of the year. So don't stress about AIC is not the focus. As long as you apply within 18 months of when you started homeschooling, you are backdated. Getting into the if you're going to homeschool, getting the paperwork done and getting approved is the focus point to start with, which one more point I'll make. If you are in South Australia, do not unenroll your child from school because we are the only state that you remain as a line item on a school. You must be registered as part of a schooling system. And you just go onto a line item that says this student homeschools. You don't have to pay fees or anything, but you don't unenroll your child and apply for homeschooling. That's every other state. But in South Australia, we say in we sign a nice email to the school saying, thanks, I'm going to homeschool, leave me on your register as a homeschooling student, and you apply for homeschooling.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

And is it easy to apply for homeschooling, Sarah?

SPEAKER_02 53:21

Depending on your capacity, it is easy to apply. It's an easy-stepped process in regards to you go on the website, click the green button, you put three or four details in. Three days later, they're going to send you an email with a link and you're going to fill in a bunch of boxes. It can be tricky if you can become overwhelmed by online forms and what to write, and people get very scared they're going to write the wrong thing. I can support them to do that. And there are other organizations I know that do support people to write applications, more about understanding how you're going to explain that your PDA child is never going to sit and read a book. So what are you going to do in the English space? And we can have those conversations. I will support South Australian families to write the application for you, but we'll I will have a pre-session like I did with Paige to get the dot points of what I need from parents in order to write based on what their child's needs are.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

I love that. I love that. So how, you know, I really believe that, you know, I've always said parent health first and then child health because we put the mask on ourselves before we put it on the child. And, you know, I always say to the families that I work with, your child will be okay. Let's work on you first, and then your child will be okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:50

I think I completely agree with you, but we're all predestined that when our children struggle, we forget ourselves and go straight to our kids. And it is the main thing that people do wrong. I do it wrong myself all the time, including today. But it's important that we understand that we are their co-regulators. So if we are not okay, they will never be okay. So we have to focus on ourselves first. I think what we need to do in the PDA space, what I've learned to do myself is redefine what self-care means. Because what it used to mean is me going traveling across the world and then going to take photos and playing sport on weekends and hanging out with friends. And that's not the reality. I live as a PDA mum. And that's okay. So I found what I truly cared about, which ended up being this business. I liked work. I wanted to work. And we should also say, as we mentioned before, just because you're a homeschooling parent doesn't mean you can't work. There are flexible ways to work if you want to work and if you have flexible ideas. There are lots of skills we have as mums that we might change our careers or we might start our own businesses, and all of that can be discussed within sessions as well. But I redefined, especially in that deep burnout space, what self-care meant. I couldn't leave the house and exercise anymore because Elijah wouldn't leave the house. So I built my own fitness programs in my house. And it was silly things like, I'm going to run up and down the stairs 20 times. And EJ was in his room and he wouldn't come out. So that's something I could do.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

I do 15 burpees a day.

Siblings, Masking, And Daily Logistics

SPEAKER_02 56:07

There you go. Good for you. I hate burpees. I would never do that. But I would do hand weights on the back deck because I want to do it, but I can't get to a gym and I can't see my friends at the gym anymore. And I can't have brunch after the gym. So all of that disappeared and I was losing my own identity of what I was. All I became was a PDA mum. And as much as I love being one, I needed more. And the more I didn't focus on that, the worse my mental health got. The more I went into burnout with Elijah and got into that space where I couldn't get out of bed and I didn't know what to do. And there was no one who understood back then to talk to. So luckily there are services like ours who exist now that we can talk to parents about what that looks like. And parents have to be willing to understand that it may not look like it did before, and that's okay. But it's also okay to grieve it until they're ready to look at what it looks like. Because as we talked about, that radical acceptance is so important. So I for myself would be like, I'm going to cook a new meal every fortnight and try and do something healthy for myself. Or I'm going to, you know, give myself a pedicure because I used to go to the do get that done, but I can't do that anymore. So maybe I'm going to do that. Or maybe I'm going to call a friend from when I used to live in Sydney. I'm going to call one friend once a fortnight and try and have a 20-minute conversation and try and stick to that, like programming into my day. I'm a super organized person. So it goes into the calendar. This is what I'm doing for myself today. Or maybe I'm going to try and watch a movie at night that's not a movie about Minecraft because I can't watch any more Minecraft stuff. I'm going to watch something that's just for me. I'm going to be next to my son because that's how I put him to sleep for three hours every night. But when he was in burnout, I should say, but I'm going to watch something for me. Or I ended up designing a business because I was like, I just lost my paramedic career. I now no longer can do that anymore. I've just graduated from my social work, but I can't go and work in the field that I wanted to. That's not okay. I'm going to build a business and help three or four mums, and maybe they're going to understand and we're going, I'm going to make some friends. And it turned into this. Like I didn't know it was going to turn into that. But I was better building a business and coming up with fresh ideas to use my brain. My brain needed to be used. And when I wasn't using it, I was really sad. So I tried to find what that was for me. For other people, it's just talking to friends or sitting in the sun and having a cup of tea for five minutes by themselves. I liked doing the folding because the folding gave me dopamine completion. That made me happy. So it's something different every day and not to be too hard on ourselves. Even last term with Matilda, when I was doing great, there were days I was like, this is ridiculous. Like I'm so miserable because I thought it was going to look like this today, and now apparently it's not. And it's hard. But there are other days when it is such a gift to homeschool your child, to see them truly thrive, which you know they were not doing when they were in school. And then when you see them re-enter and the ownership they have over their bodies and their minds and their friendships and their learning, it's it's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

It is a gift.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Yeah, it is a gift. It is a gift. And I think, you know, like the big thing is that I always say to families, especially when you're in that negative spiral, is to look for one little good thing. One little good thing. Gratitude is a dopamine hit when you start looking more and more at the at the things that are good, you know, like, wow, I've got a computer. Wow, my internet's working. Wow, I've got a drink here of water, you know, that I can have. So I think the other, it does get, especially when people are very in a negative state of mind that they find it extremely hard to get back on track. It's like being on a because I've just been four-wheel driving over the weekend and you're in that track, in that track, and all of a sudden you hit a little bump, and then you're out of that track and you can't get back in, right? And sometimes we need support to be pulled out, recovered. And that's where I think, you know, organisations like yourself, Sarah, like yours, Pai, and I'll have to say my therapy house, like we really care about the families that we work with, right? And why else would we be on here at 9.15 at night talking everything PDA and leaving our personal lives behind? Nobody does that, you know. So I am really, really grateful that you joined us today, Sarah. That was Paige's idea. Thank you so much, Paige, for that idea. And you guys are just so inspiring as mums, as business owners, as leaders in the field. And I really I wish you all the best in the future. And I really love, like I always say to Paige, I want more of this, I want more of this, because this is the thing that really gets my juices up. And I think this is what life's about connecting with like-minded people and you know, brainstorming, talking about all these different ideas and how we can help more people, how we can reach more people, because I think you know, life is sometimes not easy, and people do feel very, very alone within their four walls.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:05

Yeah, I can agree more. Perspective is a powerful thing. Perspective. Let us help you find it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you so much, Paige. And join us next week for another installation of the Oak and Page journey. So thank you, and bye for now.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

Good night, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

See ya.