The BA Times
A podcast talking about the role of a business analyst in the UK IT sector
The BA Times
Rory Wood from Investigo - recruiting contract Business Analysts
Unlock the secrets to thriving in the evolving UK business analyst contract market with our insightful conversation featuring experts Pete Bagnall, Neil Murphy, and recruitment specialist Rory Wood from Investigo.
We chat about how networking and personal connections are key in modern recruitment. Rory gives his insights on how keeping active on LinkedIn can boost your visibility and why personal recommendations often beat job site applications. We'll dive into the recruiter-business analyst relationship, focusing on empathy, specialisation, and strong client connections for consistent contract work and how the IR35 legislation is reshaping the role of interim contracts.
Finally, we examine the future of recruitment through the lens of AI and remote work. Understand the balance between digital tools and in-person interactions, and ponder the intriguing possibilities AI presents in the hiring process. Whether you're a seasoned professional or new to the field, our discussion offers a view of the current trends and future directions in the recruitment world,
Rory Wood: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rory-wood-268171134/
Investigo: https://www.linkedin.com/company/investigo/
Presenters
Neil Murphy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-murphy-1613601/
Pete Bagnall: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petebagnall/
I think we're recording so good stuff, yeah hi everybody.
Speaker 2:Uh, my name is pete bagnell. Um, I'm a business analyst been a business for about 18, 19 years now, I think, um predominantly financial services sector, working with a whole range of sort of clients in the now in the contract market. Uh, today, joined by neil Murphy, my co-host, Hi, yeah, so my name's Neil Murphy.
Speaker 1:I've been at BA a bit longer than Pete, probably heading towards, kind of scarily, probably about 25 years now. I've worked across many sectors not insurance or finance, because we know that those are very niche and that's why Pete specializes in the finance side of things.
Speaker 2:Thanks, neil. Yeah, so just to set the scene for our podcast. The intention of the podcast is just to have just a fairly open conversation about the BA role, the BA community specifically in the UK market, where Neil and I are based, and just to hopefully provide just some insights, tips about the BA role, how we work and just how to sort of be a good BA.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and one of the things that we've always talked about is our kind of 360 approach to the role of the BA, and we've talked about the fact that we are going to interview program managers, transformation directors, product owners and recruitment agents, and I'm really pleased to say today that we're joined by Rory Wood from Investigo. Rory has placed me twice over the last four years and he's one of my go-to recruitment connections when I'm looking for a contract. So welcome to the show, rory.
Speaker 3:Thanks very much guys. Thanks for having me on, appreciate it and honoured to be the recruitment guest, so hopefully I can add some value to listeners about that sort of world and Open Door which might be useful for them.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So how long have you been in recruitment, Rory?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been doing this for, I think, eight years now. So, yeah, coming up to eight years within recruitment, Coming up to seven years at Investigo, which is a fairly long stint there. So I've been a partner in their change and transformation practice now for a couple of years but work my way up from a consultant level and I've always sort of done that, started in IT and in public sector at my previous company and then moved into the transformation team here. So most of my experience has been around that transformation market, always in the interim contract space, and I've worked on a lot of BA engagements. Over my time. I've done sort of program management, PMO portfolio, so, yeah, covering sort of the full gamut within that program team really.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Okay, so it's October 2024.
Speaker 3:So just pick up a timestamp on this, because we're going to talk about how is the current contract market rory from your perspective I know, but it's always a funny one because I I know you and I have this conversation all the time and um other you know as, as I'd love to say, I work with every client that's hiring bas in the uk, but I don't, so I can always just give you a snapshot of what I'm finding across my client base and what I'm finding just generally talking across the people that I know within this industry. I think we all know that 2024 has been a bit of a tough market on the interim side. It's been especially tough at the senior end of the market, sort of program director type level roles, the BA market specifically. We found it to be fairly steady, so it's not been a candidate driven market where candidates have three or four things on the go and people are fighting for their services and that can be driving up day rates and that sort of thing, but it's not been a complete desert where there's been nothing going on. I think I work just for some context. I just work in the private sector, in commerce and industry, so not financial services and not insurance, so I can't really speak to that or the public sector side. But I've certainly found that there's been enough work within the BAE market, especially looking at what's being driven to cost optimizations, efficiencies, continuous improvements. If you're thinking that actually, most clients are looking at trying to cut their costs, that's actually a really interesting place for BAs to be working and looking at process efficiencies, target operating models.
Speaker 3:What we're probably seeing less of this year was that big investment in big tech implementations where they're spending a lot of money on sort of stuff that will add value. I do think that will come back around because I think if you're looking at, you know that boom we saw post-COVID, where the market went crazy and it was. There was a real war for talent and transformation. A lot of that was driven by the fact that nothing happened in terms of transformation for about a year or so and there was all this sort of built up demand. People had to do things. It's not quite been that bad in 2024, 23, but there is still a buildup and demand where people are going to have to start investing again, whether that be in tech or operational efficiency. So I do think it will continue to tick up. So, yeah, that's my basic overview.
Speaker 2:I'd say and how do you see the interim market in terms of, obviously we've got outside ir35 roles, inside you've got full-time contracts. Obviously the changes to ir35, I guess, in more recent times, how do you see the sort of different types of contracts and interim roles that you're dealing with and how do you see that impact on ir35 has affected those roles and the number of roles that you get? Because I mean, when I started as a contractor, pretty much 90% of the roles were outside IR35 and I guess, specifically from a financial services perspective, it's sort of flipped the other way now. But how do you see the sort of type of contracts you deal with and the impact that IR35 has?
Speaker 3:It's interesting when IR35 is in it. So I first started recruitment like two weeks in when IR35, isn't it? So I first started recruitment like two weeks in when IR35 came into the public sector and I was told two weeks into my recruitment career to ring all our contractors and ask them if they knew what was going on with IR35. And I thought it was aisle 35. So I was ringing people going aisle 35. I think I got three calls in before someone corrected me. So I've got a lot of experience with it. My general view within transformation and business analysis is if clients are willing to engage with properly assessing roles and also working with interims in the right way. So you know IR35 has always been around. All that's changed is who assesses it. So when you're like 90% of roles were outside, you know the limited company contractor was the one saying yeah, I'm outside. You know there was always that risk there, but because that shifted to some clients and financial services was a classic example, they just decided we're not going to take on any of that risk. We're not comfortable doing these assessments. We've got too many interims. It sounds scary. We don't want a tax bill. We're just not engaging with outside well, not engaging with limited companies or pscs, because what they can't really do is say this role is inside. What they can say is we will not consider working with limited companies unless they've done an assessment.
Speaker 3:So look, the clients I tend to work with, I I'd say, if I look at my current contractors out and these are all bas, these are said program managers, portfol I'd say 80%, 85% of it's outside. I find the roles that are inside are the occasional backfill roles. So necessarily, if you're replacing a permanent person, it's probably going to be inside. Or if they are going to eventually recruit that role permanently, you need to make sure there's a certain project and an end date to your contract to make it outside. Um, but that's because of the clients I engage with. If you look at bigger clients banking, insurance, telco, so your bts of the world they went down that risk averse route as well. So it just does depend. I wouldn't be able to give you a quote like look, this is how many inside this is. Yeah, that's the way I look at it.
Speaker 3:Um, fdc is its own kettle of fish, isn't it? I think fdc I don't. I won't recruit ftc roles. I think they're really difficult to recruit for, especially if they're under a year. You can't really get interim contractors to zoom on daily rates. You can't get permanent people to do them, so you're fishing in a relatively small pool. Um again, ftcs are usually used by clients who, uh, don't have the the money to hire a contractor necessarily, and it will go down that route. I've seen a push towards if a program's a very long program, they've got a three-year roadmap and they want to tie down a program director or something, then offering an FTC on that basis sometimes works, because then they'll tie it in with a very high salary bonus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, other things you get makes a lot more sense, doesn't it exactly that sense?
Speaker 3:FTCs for BAs are very hard and I've got a colleague that recruits the equivalent for permanent BAs and again he won't really touch FTCs. They're just very difficult to find. If it's right for your personal circumstance then I completely understand it. Go for it. But it's not a great market to be looking in. But you know it's not a great market to be looking in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's got to be a tough one, especially that FTC. It's not really the best of either, is it? It's the worst of both.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if the client comes to you and says, yeah, the pool you're fishing in is really small of probably like people being made redundant or immediately available perm people, or you know people who, for whatever reason, it works for them, but you know people who, for whatever reason it works for them, um, but you know the day rate is a sort of separate market.
Speaker 2:I'd say, yeah, and how much experience you sort of typically look for, um and I guess it may be different for you and your colleague who mentioned the recruits on the permissive, but I mean for you looking at interim, when you're looking at candidates, how much experience or what sort of experience are you looking for from a BA to sort of be considered for that interim role?
Speaker 3:I'd say you need to build up a bit of experience just to to got some battle scars for some different programs.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah, we've all got those yeah.
Speaker 3:Exactly. But I think you know, if I was looking at someone who'd done two years in a in a BA role in one company, I would say to them they need to get experience either in another company or build it up where they've done more things, because you're in danger of going into an interim role there where you potentially only touched on a couple of different projects and you haven't really built up that breadth of experience, ability to work in different environments. So you know, unless you've been in a consultancy and therefore maybe you've worked with loads of different clients and had that exposure, I'd say that move to interim is maybe your second earliest, maybe third move. You know. Well, I'd like to see, you know, build up a bit of a career at one place, maybe go somewhere else, build up a bit more of a career, and then it's about that breadth of experience across. Different projects gave me different stakeholders, different ways of working. That's what I would tend to look for and if I think about the bas that I place and continue to place, most of them have been very experienced contractors for a while.
Speaker 3:I have had success placing people in their first interim role and that's always great, you know, and and you know, if you're good, you're good. I think that is the. That is the thing you know. You don't necessarily need 10 years experience to be good if you're impressive, you know, if you're good, you're good. I think that is the. That is the thing you know. You don't necessarily need 10 years experience to be good If you're impressive. You know what you're doing. You've worked on some relevant things. You will get hired for the role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that experience goes a long way, doesn't it, I think? Like you said, I think battle scars is the perfect term in those projects where it's not necessarily gone too well.
Speaker 1:and then when you get placed somewhere else, you think oh, I've seen this before, you've kind of got an idea of how to navigate that a little bit, you know yeah, but also I I'm rory, I'm not going to put words into your mouth, but I'm guessing also that you know if you are a permy, at the moment, more than likely you're on a minimum of a month's notice or three months notice and probably for most contract roles, unless it, unless it was really niche or you know the projects, you know they're not going to wait around for that notice period.
Speaker 3:The client's not going to wait around for that notice period to be served no, and I think I I give this advice because I get asked this quite a lot um, you know how do I make that leap to interim one? I always push back and go is this what you want? Or you know, have you just sort out the day rates? Good, I'll go for that because it is a and you guys will know this it's a completely different way of working. It's a different way of being treated when you're at work. It's a different way of looking at your work situation. You know you are in a uh, a more precarious position. You know you're you might have a year long contract, but you you're effectively got a two-week notice. So you know that is as long as your contract could be and it could be nothing to do with performance. I'm sure you've all been in a position where a program budget's been pulled. Yeah, thank you very much. Nothing we can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I always push back on that and go, look, have you thought about this? You know, I sell the worst case scenario to someone to make sure they're really thought about it and I'm like, look, it lends itself to being interim. I think business analysis, because it's a good interim market, work on specific work, because it's skill set lots of people like to bring in on the interim market, so it's a great place to be just need to have thought about that. You know, make sure that that works for you in your situation. Um, and then you're right, notice period. That leads on to you probably need to hand your notice in before securing a contract. If you're on a three-month notice, you have to. There's. It's just not even worth a conversation because there is no one who will get your day with three months to spare. Um and the whole, I can negotiate down. You can't not not to something that's relevant I'd say a month that might be on the outside, workable.
Speaker 3:I do have some clients. What's good in a month is if you can offer some flexibility. So say I can commit to you two days a week for the for the next two weeks, something to offer them a bit of ramp up so they're not having to wait a full four weeks. You will be up against people who are more available than you. So it's just how much that client values the. Your quality cost, time number right. They might actually really care about the quality more than the time and therefore you'd be all all right. But yeah, three-month notice. You have to hand in and make that leap and just be willing to do it really.
Speaker 1:So the million-dollar question, rory, when you're looking at CVs for BAs. I know we all depend on the client et cetera, but what are the key standouts for you when you're looking at essentially BAs and then making a phone call to speak to them and introduce yourself?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I'll do my basics of what I think a CV should look like and then I think I'll speak a little bit more about you know what in particular will make people stand out. So I think the number one thing I always get asked is how long should a CV be? And always get asked is how long should a cv be, um? And people say there's no wrong answer. There is, there are wrong answers and there is a right answer in my opinion. I think bacvs most cvs you should try and get in four pages. I don't subscribe to two pages. I don't think it's long enough for a project-based professional to fit your skill set and all the different things that you've you've worked on in two pages. If you give me me a 10-page CV, I'm going to hate it. I'm not necessarily going to not call you if it's niche and I like the look of it, but part of a BA skillset, I think, is showing information in a succinct way to people to read. If it's a 10-page CV, I would question whether that is something that you should be able to do better than that. Now I think I've said this to you, neil I expect to see all of the normal things that a BA would be able to do. So BPMN video, all these sort of keywords. I expect to see that, so I'm not like too worried about that or anything. Make that information as easy as possible for someone to read, because you are going to get if you don't know the person, you don't know the recruitment consultant they're looking at your CV you're going to get a very small amount of time that they're going to give to reading that CV. I don't know what the stats are, but it's something stupid like six seconds or it is really really small amount of time you get. So I quite like, personally, types of industries. I've worked at types of projects. I've worked at key successes and achievements and what I really like is seeing this is what I contributed to this project.
Speaker 3:These were the outcomes. What cost efficiencies were made, what did we deliver? How did we deliver it? What was the situation that I came into? Rather than, you could make that per role so you don't have to then just repeat yourself every role, being like I process mapped, I did the as is, I did the tv and then it's the same on every role. Yes, I expect you to have done all of that in all of the roles.
Speaker 3:What I'm looking for is actually what were you working on? How did you do it? What was the situation? Those are the key things, because you've got to think. The recruiter is given a brief by a client, hopefully a detailed one, and hopefully the recruiter is sort of spoken down into the depths of the key things for the client and that's what they're searching for if they don't know you now, as I said to you before, neil, like CVs are a great way to introduce blah blah, but you know you should be.
Speaker 3:The other string to bow is to work on your network as well. So make sure that ideally, you know you're not going to probably get a role from just sending a CV to someone you've never spoken to before. You know, I certainly find that my first port of call is people that I've worked with before, I've spoken to before, not even necessarily placed before, but I've spoken to before, not even necessarily placed before, but I've spoken to before and I've built that relationship up. So it's worth investing in speaking to people in recruitment as one, but also too, if you're asking me, you know where do I find most of my DA's recommendations? I ask program managers, I ask program directors. I ask IT directors, whoever you work with anyone and I'm speaking to at that sort of level or any level I always ask and I've asked you, neil as well like who do you know who is good in this space?
Speaker 2:and that goes both ways.
Speaker 3:I'll ask neil who is a great program manager you work with. You know that recommendation, so leaving a good taste and giving that out is a great way. You know your network is really powerful.
Speaker 1:Um, it is something that should be working for you, but it does need to be maintained like yeah, and I think I said in a previous podcast is what I do as well, and we're going to move on to linkedin and in a second. But when I, when I'm on linkedin, I see recruiters that aren't rory, because there are other recruiters out there, you know. You know, if I see they are recruiting for bas, I'll send them a linkedin request because you know, potentially maybe in six months' time, you know, and I was speaking to a friend the other day and they've got a friend that's jumped from a big four consultancy and you know he said can you have a look at his LinkedIn? Et cetera. And there was probably about 250, 300 connections on his LinkedIn and I'm probably way over 2,500, you know, and it's kind of. So that kind of moves us on actually now to in the old world.
Speaker 1:Probably when me and Pete were working together looking for a new role, I would have uploaded the CV, updated it, uploaded it to job sites CW jobs wait for that to propagate, and then the phone calls would come in cw jobs wait for that to propagate and then the phone calls will come in. Um, so from your perspective, recruitment sites, do they still work or is it very much? As you touched upon your network but and underneath that is linkedin, really important for that kind of finding those, those quality people.
Speaker 3:Yeah absolutely look. Job sites still do still do serve a purpose, for sure, and people do still look on them and still actively search on them. If I look at my colleagues, that is still definitely something that people do. I do think it needs to be paired up with other prongs of your attack. If you're looking at going to market, linkedin is crucial. Linkedin just invest in it's really simple. You don't need huge amounts in LinkedIn A professional picture. You do need your face on there, like this again, there's, I remember, the stats around it, but the data around people clicking on your profile. If you've got a picture and you don't need to be as beautiful as I am to to get people to do it just boy bands look exactly like it's helpful.
Speaker 3:I'm not gonna lie, but obviously it's. It's not. You know necessarily that, but make sure it's there and then it should just be your cb in short. So make sure it's up to date your roles, your dates, you were there, because that's that will optimize you in linkedin searches. And make sure that it's not just ba app, blah, blah. But if you did a target operating model program, just make sure one, one or two lines of what the project was, because if you think that if our recruiter might look on on job job site, which is, then he'll type in a boolean search and all the keywords of everything he's looking for and that will be, he or she will, you know, will come up on the cv on everything. Your linkedin doesn't need to be that detailed, but it does need to still have those keywords, because they do the same thing on linkedin search and they're looking for someone specifically who's done warehouse management solutions or something and you've done that, but it's not on your LinkedIn. You won't appear in those in those searches. So it doesn't need to be as in-depth as your CV. Don't type your CV out again on LinkedIn, but just make sure the key things in terms of what projects, what systems etc are listed under under the roles. So that's key there. So it's got to be all of them and I think especially recruiters, you know, who maybe have been doing a little less last long.
Speaker 3:I've naturally got quite a big network because I've been doing it for so long. So I think I probably and this is something I'm more guilty about, I I spend less time on the job sites because I don't necessarily need to. You know, we are all. One, I can know people that I know will do a good job. So there's less risk because I've spoken to them or referenced them etc. Before.
Speaker 3:And two, I think people are naturally looking for the easiest solution, which is I'll go to my network of people that I trust. Then I will go out further. So it can be difficult growing that network at first, you know, because you are starting out and people won't know you. But just have those conversations, you'll soon find out. I'm sure you guys know when you speak to recruiters you can probably tell pretty quickly if they understand what a ba does or understands that, and that's probably a good sign for you to know. Okay, this person probably does actively recruit by a lot in that space, or maybe they've. He or she has got one role in this space but don't doesn't do a lot in it, so maybe isn't as relevant to you and I think that's what I've.
Speaker 2:I've seen change, probably over the years as well, as I think I guess in the earlier days you would, as you said, sort of put something on a job site and you would get a call from a fairly generic recruitment agent who sort of they've got a ba role. They don't really know what it is, they've got it does, but they've got the job description and they're kind of just reading it back to you, whereas now I think there's people that just just recruit for bas and they just and they actually know the role really well, which from our side is a massive help because actually you can talk in the BA lingo and it's not sort of falling on deaf ears, you know, and I think that's a real positive from the recruitment industry. I know obviously you guys seem to get bashed all the time. Every time you see LinkedIn you see at least one a week of recruiter didn't do this and that. But I think that the level of competency has just risen so much, I think with the help of LinkedIn, because actually you guys know our roles now a lot better than there was before when you would just get a generic call.
Speaker 2:So I think that's been a massive help, and I think that the one thing that has always wondered for me, though, is like you get some clients that say, oh, I need a BA that's got x amount of experience in this certain system or this certain industry. And I think I guess, for me as a BA, when I very first started as a BA, you would go into a company and you wouldn't really know anything about their, their systems, their processes or anything, and that was part of your role as in. You've got that skill set and mindset to be able to chat with the clients, chat about whoever it is that you're doing, and understand those systems from a fresh perspective, and then help with the projects. But I mean, what's your experience, and why is it? You think some clients sort of say, well, actually, I will only touch somebody that's worked in insurance, or I've only touched someone that's worked on Salesforce, for example. What is the reason for that?
Speaker 3:Well, those are actually two really salient examples of actually what the ones that you do tend to find. I think there are some projects where they are very open to that skill set. I think there's a couple of reasons. Number one and I think this is a relatively basic one is they need to be able worried or the recruiter will be worried. Well, okay, well, what, how on earth do I narrow that down? There's I don't know how many other bas out there. It's great, like I love that brief, because if they just tell me right, actually this is the project, but I really just need a really solid ba who's good, all right, we've got some difficult stakeholders, or it's a sensitive information like if you know, etc. There's some sensitivities around it and then there's some personality bit and then it's about how well do you know your, your ba market.
Speaker 3:But insurance has just always been like that. I've certainly since I've been recruiting it. They were like we need insurance experience, like yeah, I, I don't, I can't be fs, it's just something they always say. I don't think they're special unicorns. That means that. But it's interesting like going the other way as well. You know, seeing commerce and industry clients quite often if they're look at somebody who's just done insurance, they'll go. Oh, I'm not sure about that. They've just done insurance. I don't know why, but that seems to work. I'd say retail is the other one as well, neil. Retail like retail as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I've been quite lucky by getting into retail, so I've probably had what three clients now in that kind of retail retail space.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting one, I think. Sales as well, system specific stuff. Right, they want people to hit the ground running their contractors. They may be like that skill set, I guess, is what they're after. Is they go right? I actually want to know somebody who's done this implementation so they don't have to do any of the catching up on. Yeah, xyz, I kind of get it. A good va should be able to just pick that up relatively quickly anyway. But that is the reasoning behind it is, you know, if they and I would always say, for instance, like a salesforce thing if you've got a va without it and a va with it and they're just looking at the cvs, they're probably going for that one and it proves at the end of that, knowing that, then that's where you focus your your search on, unless you're like I actually know this is a slam dunk and this is going to really work. So that's probably.
Speaker 3:I get the feedback and it can be a bit frustrating. You've got to listen to the recruiter. If the recruiter tells you like there isn't a point, they're going to reject you because the recruiter, there's no reason the recruiter won't send you if they think that you can get the job and I get the frustration because and I get the recruit frustration with recruiters because we're the person that you can speak to about it. And job hunting can be really frustrating, especially in the bear market, and it's it feels really personal when you've applied, you know you could do a job and then you're not sent or you don't get. You know you do it. It feels really personal and I think sometimes recruiters, because we do it so much, could forget that it is actually a personal experience.
Speaker 3:I think permanent people are a bit better at that, permanent recruiters because they do it sort of less volume, but you know it is frustrating, especially when it's that feedback. We're like I don't think that makes sense, but that's what the recruiter's been told and the client pays us at the end of the day. So we've got to give the client what they want. We can educate them as much as we can around. Actually I think this is what you want, but at the end of the day if they say I want apples and you give oranges, they're going to be upset with you yeah, it's like you're the ba of the recruitment world, as in, you're the people that sit right in the middle of everyone else.
Speaker 2:Just get all the flack maybe it's going wrong.
Speaker 3:It's a lot of scoping requirements, not my decision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the requirement is this, and I have exactly got a scope, so I've got to stick to it. I'm really sorry to upset you, yeah much like a good ba.
Speaker 3:I suppose it's up to us to scope that requirement exactly, yeah, you can relate to that it's pain points like that is what, especially interim transformation.
Speaker 3:They're coming to fix a problem or a pain point. They're not hiring a ba because they need a bum on the seat to be a BA. They're not part of an org chart that needs filling out. There's a specific problem that needs solving and I think good recruiters and in any market, not just BA but any market will get to the core of what that problem is and therefore the solution becomes more obvious because actually that's, you know, does your elbow hurt because your shoulder's screwed? You know that sort of thing. I think that is kind of where you know good recruiters should try and get to and that does down. You know it comes down to clients engaging properly and seeing the value in that service as well and giving the time to have those conversations as well, because you know, I think over the years I used to maybe work with any client that would shake my hand, but nowadays you want to try and get that a bit more partnership, where they can give you a bit more time to to really understand what they do their business, like you say.
Speaker 2:So we can give you a proper brief which is better for everyone involved really yeah, and I guess, just extending on that, just on the sort of ba like a certain experience, how do you find that?
Speaker 2:I guess the people that come and say I've been a ba, a project manager, a product owner, a tester, and that that sort of multi-role, uh person that's sort of done a bit of everything like do they, is it easier to place those because they've got so much experience, or is there a bit of caution there because you think, well, actually, who are you, where do you fit in?
Speaker 3:the puzzle type thing I say, unfortunately, it's kind of the latter a lot of the time, and this will also be what clients are looking at when they look at the cv. The the flip, the flip side of that is when they want someone like that. They're rarer to find and hard to get, and I have recruited for those types of roles. Actually, it's like you know what we need someone who can do a bit of this but actually do some of the product work and maybe lead some pm stand-ups and have they got some scrum as well, like it does happen, I'd say, in the interim market. You do kind of want to build out your niche a bit more than that to get guaranteed repeat sort of contract work. That's what would be.
Speaker 3:My advice is you want to try and specialise as much as you can, certainly within sort of smaller verticals than that. But that being said, when they do go to market, I have had that request from clients that I do need a bit of a jack of all trades. I think you find it a little bit more in the project management, program management space than you do in the ba space is what I've found um like if I look at that, have I placed many pmbas?
Speaker 1:not really, um, yeah, I think what we saw when we were kind of locking down in that COVID period and I did see I know of a few people that basically thought they could drop down from being a project manager or being a project manager eight years ago and then reposition themselves as a BA but unfortunately didn't have much success in landing roles Because again people were looking at them going well, actually, as soon as you get a new contract offer that's a pm role, that's playing a bit more than the ba role you're going to jump yeah, dropping down is always really, uh, difficult and I've had this conversation with loads of senior people.
Speaker 3:Um, it's, it's it's really frustrating position. I completely understand it, you know. Oh, I just need work at this stage and it's, it's trouble because you won't really be able to do the roles that they're going for or get them, because you are going to be competing against people who do this day in, day out. Clients will think or maybe they'll jump, but also the clients will think they could probably do it, but they haven't been doing that for a while. You know, they've been more at x level, where they've it is a different skill set. You do different things. Um, so it is hard to to do and I understand why people, certainly when the market was tougher, was we're looking at it, but, um, and it's really hard. Advice for me to just be like hold fire and wait for the right thing that will come along, especially when it doesn't feel like that. But that is kind of where it will end up. Um, yeah, it depends on the size of business as well. They call things, things, different things, et cetera et cetera.
Speaker 3:But yeah, that's my general thought on that. I think.
Speaker 1:And then, what are your thoughts on training courses, business analyst certifications et cetera? I know in the perm world there is some importance, you know, being a level two certified BA et cetera, to certified BA et cetera. But when you're looking at CVs and you're looking to get a BA into a client, is there any relevance in having extended training courses that you get officially certified or you've done exams et cetera?
Speaker 3:In generally the interim market. It's not something I really look at that much. It probably is on every if I get sent a job spec which I rarely do in the interim market, but if I get sent a job spec it's not something I really look at that much. It probably is on every if I get sent a job spec which I rarely do in the intro market, but if I get sent a job spec it's probably always on there. But I've never really had a client push back because a contractor hasn't been certified.
Speaker 3:If you've got enough experience, I think if you're starting out and actually the most relevant thing is if it's going to give you some extra skillset and upskill you and how good you are at your job, then to give you some extra skill set and upskill you and how good you are at your job, then I think you should definitely go for it. Do you need it as long as you, as long as you're good at your job? I don't think so. I haven't had many clients ever push back.
Speaker 3:The only one caveat I would say on that is it's sort of linked to be a that lean six and and that qualification will, will be I'll often, I'll often if I'm recruiting for that, they'll be like all right, I want a green belt or I want a black belt, or they have to be x, y and z, but that's kind of its own sort of role in a way, actually, so it's kind of going down that route, whereas I say sort of ba certifications, I think, as I said, if they're going to upskill you and add something to how good you are at your job, then definitely go for it. But I wouldn't just be like, oh, this is going to unlock a whole new range of roles, certainly not in the interim world, in permanent, maybe a bit different, but in interim, yeah, I don't think it's massively important. As I say, it's more important to have the right projects on there and you've worked on the right things, rather than the educational certs.
Speaker 1:Excellent. And then in relation to, obviously, when we lock down remote working, everyone go work from home and et cetera, where are you seeing your clients' expectations currently in 2024 around that hybrid model? I have seen some roles five days a week on site, et cetera.
Speaker 3:It's pushing back towards the office. I think the fully remote roles are a few still out there, but there's at least some office time. It's interesting going back to outside IR35, they really shouldn't be dictating when you're in the office if it's outside IR35.
Speaker 3:It should be dictated by where the work is. But I do get clients will, and the attitude that most of my clients will have is like, look, we don't need people in the office to, you know, do documentation, but they're holding more in in-person workshops or more in-person sort of things like that and running those. So they will say usually the expectation is to be in the office when required and then they'll give an estimate on how many days that is likely to be. The reality might be actually that, okay, they'll say two days a week, but reality is that's actually four days one week because they've got loads of workshops happening and then you won't go in for three weeks and then, etc, etc. So candidates, I think need to be a bit more flexible to go, okay, I will do as the project demands. Um, rather than being like, okay, I will only do it if it's one day a week, it will be right maybe it'll end up like that, but it will probably average out across different areas.
Speaker 3:That being said, like I've had clients recently come to me with with four days a week, which is the most I've seen um since since covid, the reasoning behind that was incredibly tight deadlines with the team all in the all in the office where they're like right, this is just the culture that we're going to do. It did make recruiting for those roles tricky, though I do think there is still that pushback on it and I think that's the outside um. That's the exception. I haven't seen five days yet, so most of my clients are probably as the project requires.
Speaker 3:I think, especially on international programs, there just is a realization that there's not much point coming to the office. If you're going to be doing calls to france, germany, italy, yeah, there's no point in doing it. But I think if you're going to be doing calls to France, germany, italy, there's no point in doing it. But I think if you're a contractor, you just need to be able to have a bit of flexibility around it. And again I'd say clients will pay for travel if it's to a different site, but if it's at the contractor site, you always have a site in your contract. If your contract is based at X, clients in general won't pay expenses to to that location as well. So that's certainly something I've seen um that there's been some pushback when it comes to expenses as well. Um, but yeah, it's the general I think I've seen that.
Speaker 2:To be honest, I think, and I think that's fairly reasonable, as, in, you need to be in the office as and when. Um, I've worked for a client that was sort of london-based, but they're national companies, so they've got offices all over the uk and there's times that I needed to be in edinburgh and, exactly as you've just said, rory, my office was london, so they would obviously uh, pay for my travel up to edinburgh and up to scotland. Um, and yeah, in order to, if I needed to be there for a workshop, as you said, do a a three-day workshop in Edinburgh need to be in the office, but then I might not go in for like two or three weeks. And I think it's just that balancing out, and I think that's what I'm sort of seeing more is sort of come in as and when you need to come in, and if that is three days a week, that's three days a week, but then the following week you might not come in at all. And I think it does differ in terms of the size of the company where there's when they're sort of located throughout the country.
Speaker 2:I think the pushback from a lot of people, I see, is what's the point in going into an office and just sitting on a Teams call or sitting on a Zoom call or sitting on a, which I totally get.
Speaker 2:But at the same time, especially from a BA perspective, there is huge value in actually being face-to-face with people. But I think one of the I guess, moves forward from COVID is just the technology that was sort of put in place. Now, for me, actually being remote when doing process analysis is fantastic, because now I can screen record. So, whereas before I'd find somebody in the office, sit down next to them and be vigorously writing notes and, oh, can you send me a screenshot of this, that and the other, and you'd you'd go back a few days later and think, oh, what was that? Whereas now you can say, right, show me what you do, screen record and it's and it's great, so I can. I can definitely see there's pros and cons of both and I think absolutely as you, as as everyone sort of slowly moves back to the office, I think you just have that flexibility. I think it's important, isn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, that's interesting actually because I was going to ask you guys you know a lot of people I I speak to maybe more at the senior program director type level like actually the beginning of the project program or engagement. I want to be in the office and build that, build that um connection and that equity in the business. People trust you and build that sort of relationship, um. So what do you guys find? Do you think actually at the beginning of a project it's probably a bit more important than when actually you're a bit established and, like you say, you can use the technology from home better yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:I mean for me I think I think always found that for a good ba, a strength is just to be able to sort of lean on favor based on the relationships that you build. You are very much that focal, central point to everybody else. Like you, you're in between the business people, the, the exco, the, the c-suite people, your project managers and and you're sort of that link between them all. So naturally as a ba you will build up that sort of relationship with stakeholders and project stakeholders and I think pre-COVID it would be one of those. If you've got something really important, you would have that relationship just to be able to appear at someone's desk.
Speaker 2:I need five minutes, I just need five minutes and I need to get this question answered. And that is golden in a way, whereas people can ignore you and hide behind sort of teams and notifications and oh, I didn't see it. So there's definite benefits there from sort of being in the office and I think, early stages, I think it is important that people know your face, know who you are, and you've sort of met them and sort of built those relationships. Because I think it does go similar to what you were just saying, rory, earlier on recruitment you will reach out to your network when you, when you've got a and I think from a BA, you sort of do the same thing.
Speaker 2:If you've got an urgent thing that's come across your desk and it's a new bit of scope, you think, right, who can I reach out to? And if you've built those relationships, you're more likely to then sort of add value. But I do think that from a remote side, the way the tech's gone, there's huge benefits now to actually being able to do some aspects of your role remotely, because it's just a lot you, I, I find that things like workshops. Now it was great being in a workshop with a dozen people, it was like face to face, but you come out with just post-it notes and notes and everything everywhere whereas now you can just sit there, record that meeting.
Speaker 2:Um, you've got ai that's going to transcript it all for you, you're going to get everything out and you just think right, I can now sit and process this and you end up with less questions going back and forth and you can get the clarity that you need. So, um, I don't know, neil, how you found it, but I mean, from my experience, it's definitely better I think, I think, I think you're right.
Speaker 1:I know I think there are days of having to scroll on post-it notes for other people's handwriting, trying to work out what it was, and you take the photo of the process flow and then Post-it notes will fall off and stuff. The other thing I've kind of seen is clients are quite practical now. It's not about having a bum on the seat nine to five. Essentially you come in for a few workshops on Monday, tuesday, wednesday, but when the workshop's backed up at 3 o'clock you jump on the train to get yourself home. But also, what I've done is I've used the same tools that we would use remotely for workshops, now face-to-face Again. Because of that you get a lucid chart out or something like that and you can share it and people can post it onto the same Lucidcharts and that's, I think, again a legacy of COVID, that people are more comfortable around using that technology.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and I think I touched on, I guess, AI earlier about just transcripts and calls and stuff. Have you seen that come into your world, Rory in, I guess people writing CVs using that? I mean, the AI world is obviously booming in the last however long, and there's some challenges on that. There's some positives of that, but how has it, I guess, affected your world and how has it affected, I guess, the people like the people you're trying to recruit? Have you seen any sort of AI-generated CVs or people answering interviews with sort of AI responses and stuff? Have you seen much of that come?
Speaker 3:in. Yeah, I'm not sure if I have or haven't.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe. Yeah, that's a scary thing.
Speaker 3:It's funny with AI as an industry. I think we're jumping on it a little bit, probably a little bit later than some. I think there's huge implications for it on some sort of the volume hiring, probably less specific roles. But you know, I think the way that recruitment certainly the businesses I've seen have been using it has been probably more business development focused. So it's actually, if you think of that, half of recruitment's job is is reaching out to clients who might need our services and I think the ai spend and ai focus and recruitment has mainly been on that so far.
Speaker 3:Um, rather than maybe some of the talent generation, um stuff that you can do. So it's about right, mass outreach or getting those lists of people who might be relevant to you, sort of better writing the copy. I mean, all jds and adverts are pretty much written by ai nowadays at least. Like that's pretty much yeah, but that's not really revolutionary, it's just a bit of a time saver. I don't think that's really changed anything much. So I think we're probably at the early days of it.
Speaker 3:It will be interesting, especially when it comes to more technical roles, on how you know the interview process is used to try and weed people out from using you know tools to do that, because I'm not quite sure how one does that. You know if someone can have an AI. Just I'm not quite sure how one does that. You know if someone can have an AI, just like you know recording what the question is and then spitting the answer out. Um, if you're good enough at reading and seeming natural with it, then I guess you could fool someone right. So it'll be interesting to see how it goes.
Speaker 3:My question probably is how long could you survive in an interim gig? We actually asked this question in the office quite a lot. How long do we reckon as recruiters, how long do you think I could last as a ba if I got hired? Is did I? Do I know enough about a ba to sit down and get a ba job? And we were arguing whether it'd be easier to last longer as a ba or longer as like a program director and like if I could just maybe buy a bit more time saying I just need to get around everything I'd like to be on.
Speaker 2:Probably the 1500 a day maybe and see if I can last that out, yeah, something, um.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's an interesting question and we, like with everyone, I think we're still getting our head around what's what's going to, what things it's going to produce into our, into our industry. I think there's lots of scope for it to be used um at initial stages of interviews. I know some of the bigger companies have invested in sort of you know ai to analyze video interviews of the first stages, to weed people down and stuff like that. So it'll definitely keep coming. I think my am I worried that recruitment will cease to exist because of ai, like everyone is for every other job? Probably not. I think it's too.
Speaker 3:People hire people at the end of the day, and I think there's always your personal touch to recruitment. Certainly the sort of stuff that we, we do um, it's a people business and I do think that kind of means that it will stay and remain that way. Um, but ai will be interesting and see how, what the new products that pop up are. Um, and some businesses I think some smaller recruitment businesses are really going heavy in it and investing in loads of tools and there are lots of companies that do ai specific recruitment tools as well. Let's say, a lot of it's focused around that business development, sales stuff, because I think ai is naturally sort of focused a bit more on that side of the side of the world as well already.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just another. It's another tool, isn't it the other day? I mean there was times before linkedin when people just said, oh, linkedin's gonna, it's just another tool to use, isn't it? And I think that, whatever that ai tool looks like, it would just be another tool for you guys to be able to do similar to like a keyword search or whatever it.
Speaker 2:Who knows what it might be it'll be something though, though, won't it, and it'll just allow hopefully, the likes of Neil and I and everyone else out there another opportunity to be seen if we can game the system somehow by making sure that when the AI asks the question that Neil Murphy is pre-programmed to be top of the result list for looking for a BA that's got retail experience.
Speaker 3:So that's the way to do it. My director's always telling me that when he started you know they'd all scramble around the fax machine for when cvs came in. So like, yeah, the game changes. But well, the tools change but the game doesn't. I think is is my overall answer to it.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, my advice to anyone when building that recruitment network is the same. It's it's people. It's you need to have conversations with with people. They don't necessarily need to speak to 100 recruiters because that would be exhausting and horrible and no one's will speak to 100 recruiters. But, you know, try and find out through your network who you know, who you've worked with.
Speaker 3:Recommendations is key for everyone. You know it's. It's it's how I work is recommendations and it's how I think most people should work. Ask other contractors, you know. Ask other people you've worked with. If you're perm looking to go into him, ask the people that you know who are in terms that you've worked with. You know people are much happier to help you out than you think, especially if you know them. People like adding value to people that they know makes them feel good about themselves. You know, not everyone will do it, but more people than you think will do it if you ask the question. So that would be my. If anyone's going to take away anything from from my advice is people will. Your network is more powerful than you think, but you do need to ask the question and that will be a great help.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Last thing, Sorry I know I'm just going to close out.
Speaker 2:Last thing when do you stand with things like putting articles out Because I see this all the time where sometimes I cringe and sometimes I'm like, oh, that's useful, you'll get like a BA or PM or somebody, any role, tech, whatever and they put out an article on LinkedIn and say, hey, this is my view on this. Is that from a recruiter perspective? Because some of it sometimes is maybe a little bit of nonsense and sometimes you read something that's quite insightful From a recruiter perspective. Do you ever sort of look through LinkedIn and sort of think, oh, what is the activity that this person's done and this is the? Or are you just looking at mainly that sort of experience, connections and that sort of level?
Speaker 3:I don't think. My answer is I don't think it can hurt at all, especially if it's relevant and interesting and you've enjoyed doing it. I don't think it can hurt at all, especially if it's relevant and interesting and you've enjoyed doing it Like it might. It's not going to guarantee you a role, but it could open up an opportunity that you wouldn't get otherwise, and it's just another thing that would potentially, with the LinkedIn algorithm, bump you up when people are looking through and recruiters spend most of our time just blankly staring at LinkedIn and refreshing and getting their hands up anyway. So you know like I think that is helpful. It's something that we, or I and my team, are trying to do more of is actually drive activities and and posts which aren't just I have a job, you know it's actually adding a little bit more interest and people like to read around and certainly if you've posted an article about something I'm looking at, that's you know really good.
Speaker 3:Um, so it's not a magic bullet. You want want to make sure it's targeted, don't just put out the. You know what my five year old taught me about business analysis Make it relevant, don't flood it. But you know every now and again if it's relevant to what you're looking at. Absolutely. I think it's definitely worthwhile doing. It raises your profile on LinkedIn at the very least. It just gets you up on the algorithm as well. On that, if you do post something, message your mates and say comments on it. It needs comments within the first. I think something like five minutes to actually get it up onto feeds. So the first engagement is really crucial. So don't post it at midnight on wednesday, like me. Tuesday morning, apparently, is the best time to place it. Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, so do that. Make sure there's early engagement, and then you should see some more engagement on the posts as well.
Speaker 1:So, based on that, Pete, we should start a podcast. You know that might be a good idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what we should do.
Speaker 3:I don't know when podcast downloads are best. I imagine podcast downloads are probably best monday morning. That's when I download most of my podcasts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so some. I would go sunday night because if I know I'm getting the train on monday or something, I'm sitting there sunday, thinking right, I'm going to download whatever I'm going to download, sunday night, monday morning. So if I lose.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're more carefully on that. I'm a monday morning. You're a monday morning person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no it sounds like we need like a ba times whatsapp group or something like that, where we can just say listen, I'm posting, can everyone just go in and like and share and all the rest of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, well, rory's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you, so thank you for your time, um, and yeah, anything else from you, pete?
Speaker 2:nothing for me, rory, great to great to meet you. Thanks so much for your time and your insights. Hopefully it'll be for everyone that listens as insightful as it has been for me. It's been really great to hear, obviously from the recruiter side, who we have very sort of intermittent contact typically. It's obviously normally when we're after something and vice versa. So it's been nice to sort of get a bit of your insight on the industry and how it works and what you guys get up to as well. So, yeah, it's been great. So thank you very much.
Speaker 3:No, thanks so much for having me on. Guys Really appreciate it. Yeah, we'll speak soon. It's been a pleasure. Cheers, Thanks.
Speaker 2:Thanks everybody, cheers, cheers.
