Ernest Holmes and Science of Mind

Transcript

Jim: 0:00

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Decide on Joy, a podcast coming to you from Harmony Spiritual Center in Fort Worth, Texas. My name is Jim Koval and my name is Reverend Dr. PJ Stanley. And thank you so much for being here. Today's episode is, is more seriously new thought. The podcast generally is about. New thought, spirituality, and related things. This one is more basically that than some of them because we're talking about Earnest Holmes and the science of mind. Mm. Earnest Holmes, sort of the founder of New Thought and Science of Mind was his initial book on the topic published in 1926, I believe. Oh, yeah. And. It's it's not a foundation text in the way, the same way that the Bible is, right? It's not, or the Koran or, or the Book of Mormon. It's not, does not claim divine inspiration not have been dictated by God? No. And it's not, he doesn't use the sort of format that. Do those things do, I mean, it's pretty much straight up philosophy and advice on living. It's not there. There's, there's not stories, there's not parables, there's none, none of that. No, there's no stories. Technically a very kind of a scientific look at what, what, what it means to be a, be a, a spiritual scientist, essentially. Yes. Yeah. And, and interestingly, we don't. Like on the website and things, we don't use the science of mind term. Very much anyway. No, because to me anyway, it immediately triggers thoughts of Scientology, which is right where we Right. It's not that at all. And there's no connection, no zero connection at, so we'll say that off the top. Zero connection. Yeah. Earnest. And I don't really know his, his work background or anything like that, but when I read the book, it feels very much like a person, a person of science and logic, trying to make sense of of his spirituality and how. Things work and, and how in his mind, spirit works how in his mind and a lot minds of a lot of people that came before him. So he wasn't the first, but he was the first to write this kind of book. That kind of made it easier for us to understand what our role as human beings are in our own spirituality and our own practices, in our own success stories and in our saying specifically. What it is we want to have happen in our lives and what our role in is in getting that to happen. So that's, to me, that's what, that's the reason why I like the book. And I like, I like reading what he has to say, although it's a little stiff. Yeah, we'll talk about that in a minute. Yeah, we'll come back to that. It's a little stiff, but but it, it, it makes, it makes sense and it's old English, so, well, not old, old English, not Shakespearean English. No, it's not ser it's, it's, but it's, it was written in 1926 and on as well. We could talk about that now, right? I, I. I don't, I did not know him, obviously. Yes. And I don't, but it feels like he felt the need to write in a tone that made it seem serious and consequential and Yes. And thought out and, you know, just, and sometimes it makes it a tad opaque is what it does. I'll give you an example here in a minute. Yes. Okay. Actually there's some quite. Startling things in there given what we've been saying about it. I mean, I just randomly hit on this one yesterday.. This, this is in a section about, I think maybe psychic phenomena or something. Okay. Alright. But it's called Obsession of Discarnate spirits. Okay. Now, okay, well that's immediately, that's immediately. What are we speaking of? An outlier of? Yes. It says, if. We are surrounded by discarnate spirits. They also might control us through suggestion for is if we are allowed, if we allowed them to do so. And this, he goes on to say, this of course is hypnotic influence, but all. Discarnate spirits are if or discarnate spirits are around us, and it appears to be true. Okay? We should carefully guard against the possibility of any mental influence from them. Okay? Now that is an outlier thing. Okay? We don't talk about that, but there it is. Yeah. I mean this is also true, certainly of the Bible or Exactly. And there and there, when we were talking about it, you and I are talking about talking about this subject and I immediately thought about the differences between the two, I wanna say main new thought arenas, which is science of mind, which is CSL and Unity which was the fillmores and. The fillmores were all about healing. It was all about healing. Right. And, and, and earnest just, it seems to be, when what I read, it feels like he's just a scientist trying to make sense of mm-hmm. What the words are and where, where we go with this thing. But that's really interesting to try to make scientific sense out of. Pretty much paranormal things. So how do you do that? And I think that that attempt, it just, it just asks for more, it just makes more questions come up. I don't know that it necessarily answers those questions. I don't know that it can, because the question becomes is how do we even know that there are discarnate objects, if you wanna call'em that meaning, you know, unbodied, you know, ghosts, or, you know, whatever they are those spiritual phenomenon. And so that's, that's one. Or several, whoever, groups of people who believe that's possible and don't believe that's possible. I am open to all possibilities because I didn't create things I don't know, and I can't say what someone else knows. I know that I don't know it. I know that I can't, I don't believe and don't know about other spirits around me, although I talk a lot about people that have gone before me. My mom, right? My sister. Other people that I love being with me and I'm using my, my hands in quotes, being with me, but that is simply a remembrance of them. That's not that I actually physically feel them around me. Yes. It's that if I was talking with them from what I know about them, this is what they would say to, would say to me. That doesn't mean they are actually saying that. Yes. You know? And so I'm clear about what I'm experiencing. Yes. And he seemed to be talking about a different thing about. Somewhat hostile spirits, but uhha. But we don't need to dig into that. I wasn't meaning to say. No, it's okay. This is what the central topic here, but it was just an example of something that's a sort of deviation from what you would expect from what we've been saying exactly about the book. And it's also an example of as, I mean for some people the Bible or. The Quran or whatever are, every word of them is you have to take the whole thing, you know, and for other people it's not, it's I, and there are many things in there that are open to interpretation. Absolutely. And likewise in science of mind. And he doesn't. At any point say you have to, you have to buy this whole package. You have to do anything. Correct. Which I like. I like that about that to get to heaven. Right. You know, if we even think about getting to heaven. Yes. He, he is not talking about that at all, at all. Uhuh. Yeah, it's, to me it's, it's very much like any other. Philosophers, scientists or anything like it, they don't all agree on all the things that they're saying. It's up to us, I think, individually to say what resonates. I think the resonation in you when you read something says whether something's true for you or not. Right. You know, and so if it's, so, I think it's, I'm not sure if it's AA or I'm not sure which group it is, but I love this thing where just take what you need and leave the rest. If they're saying something that resonates, use it. Yeah. Well, lot, lots of okay. Like spiritual things on YouTube or tarot readers. Yes. Always say that. Yeah. And I, yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't have personally, so this is. To me, this conversation or this program is really about what you think, what I think it's not, we're not putting out any particular way to be, but we're making some thought, giving you some comments about how you can approach whatever it is that you're trying to approach, and to say what works for you and what doesn't work for you, and what seems reasonable to you from your background and what you know to be true and what does not. And I might be wrong about this, but it seems like Ernest Holmes was attempting a sort of synthesis of all, all sorts of spiritual traditions. I think he was, I I, I in fact have never read that part about the Incarnate thing. I don't necessarily get through his book'cause it's quite, you know, it is, it's quite, it's it's, it's not easy and I think it needn't have been, I, it it, I. I kind of wish it had been dictated by God. He might have been a better ghost writer, but that's funny. And it is, it is not, it's not easy. It's not, but NN neither is the Bible, you know? Parts of it are more so than others. Certainly. Exactly. Exactly. So. A lot of the New Testament stuff is relatively straightforward language. Of course, we're dealing with a translation there. Yeah. And, and in the case of at least the King James translation of the Bible and the, the Koran, certainly there are also major pieces of literature. Yes. Not true of science of mind. He has some poetry in there, but I wouldn't. Say it's actually major. Yeah. And I, I just, I just for me, the reason why the book in earnest works for me and it's like anything else, not all of his stuff works for me. Some of it just gets, so he just seems to go down a rabbit hole and I just think, okay, I can't, I don't know what you're doing there, but this part makes sense to me and I agree with that and I don't necessarily agree with this, and so, okay. I'm not gonna bother with that. I'm gonna use what works. For me and move on. Excuse me. I'm sorry. And I don't, I don't know any education that we have that, that you don't do that. That you say, Hey, this is something that works for me and it's gonna help my life. And this is not something that works for me and helps my life, so I'm not gonna be aggravated about it or. Or, you know, get, could take too deep of a dive into it. Trying to figure out why I do or don't resonate. I simply don't. And I trust that intuitive side of me that says, this is for me and this is not for me. I think that's pretty much what we're saying as far as harmony is concerned. Right. But is it resonating? I can't. I can tell you what things I've done, experiences I've had, readings that I've done that have just made me jump for joy. And then I'll have people go, oh my gosh, that was awful. Did that just took me down a path. Okay, well get off the path. Get off of it. It's okay. Yeah, there's, there's another thing that I'd ran across just today that I was startled by. Okay. So I'm gonna put it in here just because, please. It's particularly current. Okay. Oh, very good. That's a piece called male and female. Oh, all right man. Coming from Unity is both male and female and has within himself both attributes of reality. In some the male predominates in others, the female, we have two distinct types in man and woman, but they're types of one fundamental principle. There is also an intermediate sex that is one in which the two attributes seem almost equally distributed. The greatest men and women of the ages have belonged to this type for it as a more complete balance between the two, which are really one. Okay. Well, all right then. Well, there you have it. Yeah. And immediately when you read that, I, I just simply see the yin yang. Yes. And, and that feels right to me that there is there. I don't, you know, I, I don't know if you look in the animal kingdom, there's a lot of examples of that. Oh yeah. So I don't, that doesn't, I don't have a problem with that. Yes. And certainly in Native American cultures particularly and well others. But an interesting thing that occurred to me about this. Hmm. Well first of all, I, I know that, that you have told this story in, in talks and things, but what was it that first brought you to Science of Mind? Yeah, it, yeah. And I think like, and I'm not gonna, I was gonna say something that's, I'm, that doesn't make any sense. I can't claim that'cause I haven't talked to that many people. But for me, there was a dissonance between what I was being told God was in, in my religion of growing up. And then how the, the church was saying I was supposed to relate to this being this great, I don't know, person, thing, entity in heaven. And it was just a dissonance for me. And it was a dissonance between how men were treated and women were treated and what marriage was about. Just a lot of things that didn't relate to what I saw as a god of love. That was my whole thing, was that if it's a God of love, I'm a human being. And I can't imagine my child doing something so much that I would just damn the hell and hell fires. It just didn't make any sense. So I was always looking, I was always looking for something and just actually saw something in the Yellow Pages thats said Center for Spiritual Living, and I thought, well, what's the difference between spiritual living and religious living? So I just wanted to go and take a look and what I found when I stepped into. The arena, there were every so many things that went against what I was raised and taught with, but what resonated with my heart to be truth for me. And that was just all kinds of people were there. Men, women, women in the pulpit white, black. It was so, it was just so much a human experience that I just fell in love with it and. Started going to all the classes to say, okay, what is this about? What are you really teaching? And the bottom line for that center, and I think that's what most of them try to do, is to say that it's really love. It's really the bottom line is just to look at everyone as if they were children of God and love them, love yourself and love them. That's the bottom line. And of course, there's a whole lot of other things that go with that, but that's what I felt, I felt completely admitted into the place. Wanted to be there. People wanted me to be there, wanted to share things with me. And so it, it was, it was a kind of spirituality that I always dreamed about. And have, have been there since, since the first time I stepped in, which is in 2009. Right. And another interesting thing coming back to the book itself. I know you've been using it in the classes before this, well, not as much because Well, but some, yes. Some as part of on and off. Yes. Alternating with a different, with another. Easier that part. Easier to understand. Yes, correct. But I assume like. Like I, I, I believe happens in Jewish communities with the Torah that you can debate Yes. What those things mean. Right? Correct. And, and always be questioning. But it's interesting to me sometimes you, but, we will sometimes quote the Bible in. Yeah. In, in in your talks. Yes. And guest speakers. Sometimes as in conventional Christian churches used a Bible verse as the basis of their sermon. Mm-hmm. Yes. I can't recall a time when anyone has ever quoted Ernest Holmes. Is that just because he's difficult or I I think it is. I think it's because he's difficult and because the Bible and other spiritual books speak in parables. They speak a lot. Not, of course, not the beginning, but I mean, they speak in a lot of parables, so there's stories for you to understand. And he speaks of no stories. He gives no examples. I've never noticed of how what he's talking about would work. In your life. This is how this particular thought I'm talking about plays out. Mm-hmm. He, he doesn't do that. He just, it's like reading a scientific book. There's no scientists that I know of. You know, unless they show their their what do you their experiments mm-hmm. If they show their experiments, those are like telling stories.'cause you can see a story in the experiment. And I think that's what he does. He meaning Ernest Holmes is that he's giving you the scientific. Information as far as he's concerned. And then it's up to you to go out and experiment with what that means. But the Bible and other books will give you parables, will give you stories that help you understand. And I just think that we, we, we live and, and breathe and think about and our history and all this sort of thing in story. That's the best way for people to understand. We're very attached to stories. Yeah. We're very attached to story. Yeah. So I think that's the reason why he's not as well loved. Because he doesn't do any stories. Yeah. He just leads it to you to create your own story. And so I wouldn't want, however, to create the impression that everything he says is incredibly difficult to wade through. Yes. I mean, that thing that I just quoted about men and women, that's pretty straightforward. It was straightforward. I think anyone could have a. Example or a story about something like that? Yeah. Not, that's not, it's not an issue, but yes. But a lot of times he'll go down a rabbit hole and you're like, what in, what in the world are we talking about right now? Yeah. And, and certainly he could be modeling on, I'm, I'm not a, a scholar of philosophy certainly, but, sometimes the, the major philosophies, philosophers, whose names we would know are, are, can be equally dance. Exactly. I like that word. Not all. Not all. No, I get you. Mm-hmm. Because it's, to me it's like something you're trying to take air and Yeah. And, and, and see it. With words. Yeah. And I'm sorry, you have to breathe it in to understand what go, what it does. Mm. That's it. That's all there, all there is. So you can try to talk about it, but to me, I feel like the more you try to talk about it, the further away it goes from you understanding Wow. Just Mm, okay. Oh, no, let's go. Yeah. I, I, I'm just saying for me, yeah. For me, the more talking, which is what Ernest does, the further down I don't get, and I have to come back and say, okay, how would that, I'm always looking for an example, what exactly you're trying to tell me, and how would that play out in my life? Mm-hmm. What, what, what does that look like? What's the story that I can, I can, I can myself experience? And maybe it's not even story, it's experience. So it's interesting that this book, mm-hmm. Which in fact you find pretty off-putting I can is actually the basis for the spiritual path. Exactly. That immediately appealed to you e Exactly. And, and not all of his stuff mean not all of his stuff, but you don't have to necessarily read this particular book, which is like the bible, his science of mind. But there's other books that he's written that are easier to understand and other authors of science of mind. Sure interests that, that are easier to understand, that do tell stories. So fortunately, he wasn't the only author to talk about it. Right. So I was able to grasp that. And of course talking with the, the members, the ministers all of the, the leadership and, and taking classes, that's number one. I mean, I, I don't know that I would have been in this if all I did was read Ernest Holmes' book. Oh, sure. Yeah. I, I just don't see how that would've been impossible for me. It was definitely about being in the classes, talking to other people about their experiences, and I thought, oh, yeah, okay, that's, I, I understand that that I felt that. And so it's the human face of it, which of course, you know, Ernest is a human person, but I'm reading his book, so I don't, I don't see his faith. I just see his words and he, I read a bit about him before this'cause I, I knew next to nothing about him. He, he did start as a minister, a preacher, whatever yes. On initially on a small scale, but in Venice, California, I believe. Yeah. Yes, yes. That's where it started. And spoke to. Rapidly increasing audiences. Yes. To where they keep having to keep moving to bigger spaces and everything. That's exactly our story. So you would think that maybe when he was speaking it was a different tone from book? I'd rather imagine the book. I'd rather imagine. It's like, I mean, I think about books that I'm writing if, if I'm writing a nonfiction book. It takes me a longer time because I wanna make sure that what I'm saying is what I'm meaning. Whereas if I'm writing a fiction book, I'm just telling a story. So the characters go where the characters go, and it's more dialogue and that kind of thing. But when I'm trying to instruct, be instructive, that's a, that's a more difficult book to write. Because the, the minds of the people that you're trying to talk to and what you mean, they're going to grasp in whatever way their mind gets into, grasp it. So they may see something that you didn't intend to say. Right. Wasn't your intention. And I put that a lot in my, in my in, in books that I write. I put a lot of things in like, if this doesn't resonate with you, it's not yours and move on. Right. Yeah. And, and I suspect he was genuinely trying to be, I believe it was be clear. I believe it was so, so that you would get what he meant. Yeah. Is, but I think now he perhaps relies more on interpreters than, than, yeah, that original, I believe. So. Text. Yeah. And it would've been interesting to be around him to see, what did he say? Live. Yeah. I, I can't imagine he spoke this way. Live. No, I don't see how you would attract people. I know. It's an interesting question, and when I say this way, I'm pointing to the book. Yes. And, and what he was. Yeah. I mean, you look at pictures of him, he looks like just a guy, an early 20th century businessman. Yes. You know? Yes, exactly. So. Yeah. Again. Yep. It would be very interesting. Go back in time and see what that was like. I've seen some, I've seen some some speakers that I really like and I've read their books and I see them live and it's very different. Mm-hmm. It's very different because they're, they, their personality shows through when they're live as opposed to. Just the facts showing up pretty much in their books, which we want. Right? And so I actually like a combination of, let me, I'm, I'm drawn to you to what you're talking about because what I see you say when you're up on stage and how you talk about your lives and you tell us stories and things like that, but then I get the actual how to book from you that it makes it easy for me to translate what you said on stage and the life you're living and how I can do it, right? So I don't think that Ernest did a good job of that, but. There you go. Or maybe he did. Maybe it was just the language at that time. That's harder for me to understand. No, no, that's not the case. Okay. There you think of other things that were written in 1926 that are nothing like that. Okay. So no, I don't think that's it. I don't think we can say, oh, that's what everyone sounded like in 1926. No, they didn't. But nevertheless, at he in his. Live efforts and in the book provided a basis for a whole spiritual movement, whatever you Yeah, it's a movement. I'll say it's a movement and it's lasting and we're still talking about in 2025. Yes. A hundred years later. Exactly. So I think it had something to say. Yes. That everyone is, not everyone, but many people are still discussing even now. Right. And we'll continue to go on. So I think that's the mark of a great book. Yes. Okay. We will end this episode there. Thanks for being with us and we will see you next time. All right.