Divorce Rich with Jacki Roessler, CDFA

Divorce, Decoded: Collaborative Divorce Explored with Siedah Spencer-Ardis, MA, LMFT & Alisa Peskin-Shepherd, Esq.

• Season 2 • Episode 19

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In this episode of the Divorce Rich Podcast, part of our Divorce, Decoded mini-series, we take a strategic look at collaborative divorce — a private, team-based alternative to traditional litigation. Joined by Siedah Spencer-Ardis and Alisa Peskin-Shepherd, Esq., we explore how the collaborative law process works, who it may be appropriate for, and how it compares to other divorce options.

Designed for individuals seeking informed decision-making, this conversation highlights key considerations for privacy, team support, and long-term co-parenting outcomes. Whether you’re exploring alternatives to court or simply want clarity on your options, this episode provides expert insights on Collaborative Divorce as a strong option for your case. 

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Welcome & Defining “Rich”

SPEAKER_04

Welcome to the Divorce Rich Podcast. I'm your host, Jackie Ressler. I've been a certified divorce financial analyst for 28 years, helping clients and their attorneys navigate the often complex and confusing financial issues in divorce. If you're in the process of or considering divorce, now is the time for you to take a deep breath and give yourself permission to find clarity on the financial issues you're facing. Rich means many things to many people. I believe the best definition of being rich is someone who has access to many resources. Along with my guests on this podcast, I will be bringing you a wide variety of information so that you can make sound and informed financial decisions for your financial future. That's why I want to tell you about the independent wealth management team at the Center for Financial Planning. Their team of certified financial planners specializes in helping people just like you navigate life changes with confidence. Whether it's assessing your new financial circumstances, creating or updating your retirement plan, or helping you adjust to the new normal, they'll work with you to get a clear, customized plan to feel in control and move forward with confidence. So if you're interested in working with a financial planner you can trust to have your best interest in mind, and you're ready to take the next step, visit centerfinplan.com at centerfinplan.com and schedule a conversation. Center for Financial Planning.

SPEAKER_00

Live your plan. Disclosure. Securities offered through Raymond James Financial Services Inc., member FENRA, SIPC. Investment Advisory Services offered through Center for Financial Planning, Inc. Center for Financial Planning, Inc. is not a registered broker dealer and is independent of Raymond James Financial Services. The Center for Financial Planning and Raymond James are not affiliated with or endorsed by the Divorce Rich Podcast.

Meet The Collaborative Team

SPEAKER_04

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Divorce Rich Podcast. This is Jackie Ressler, and our topic today is really exciting to me personally, professionally. We are going to be talking about collaborative law and how different that process is than a traditional litigated case. I have as my guest today, we have a panel conversation today, which is always fun. I have Elisa Peskin Shepherd, who is a collaborative divorce attorney and also a mediator. And I have Saida Spencer Artist, who is a collaborative divorce coach and a therapist.

SPEAKER_02

So welcome to both of you. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_04

I've had the good fortune to be on a collaborative team with both of you. And I am so excited to have both of your knowledge on this episode because it's always really fun to work with a team. So I'm excited to just jump in. Let's just dive right in and start big picture. How is collaborative law different from traditional litigation? Elisa, do you want to give us the lawyer's opinion on that? Since you've done both. Absolutely.

How Collaboration Differs From Litigation

SPEAKER_01

Yes. So the biggest difference to me between a collaborative divorce and a litigated divorce case is the couple's commitment to resolution. In a collaborative divorce case, the parties work together with their professional team to come up with a solution to whatever conflict they're having. They have to reach a resolution together. They can't just run to their attorneys who will then file a motion and run to court and have a judge make a decision for them and tell them what they have to do. In the collaborative divorce process, they come to the conference room table and they sit in the room, as uncomfortable as it might be, to try to come up with a resolution, which is why it's important actually to have a full team in place, your financial neutral and your divorce coach, because so much of that conflict and so much of the problem in coming to resolution can be based on the emotions that are flowing, which are always high during a divorce.

SPEAKER_04

Okay. This is a question for both of you. How do you think that the team model with attorneys, mental health professionals, and a financial neutral, how does that model change the tone of the process?

The Team Model Changes The Tone

SPEAKER_02

I think that the model changes the process because it gives people a new way of looking at how to manage this very impactful piece that is changing their lives, right? Uh I think when you think about divorce, you are either worst case scenario on a lifetime movie, somewhere playing in your own brain, or you are thinking about your coworker or your sister or brother's horrific experience, right? Or just the fears of the reality that things are going to be changing for your life, your home, your family, your children, your money. So being able to come into something with a team at the forefront and knowing that, hey, we're in this thing because we have an agreement for everyone to try to work together with the best interests and best outcome, that changes the game from the start. I agree.

SPEAKER_04

I think it turns it from an inherently adversarial process to one where, like you said, you've got a team of people that are all working for everyone.

SPEAKER_01

Alisa, how is it different? I mean, also say that every divorce case has a legal side, an emotional side, and a financial side. So having a full team in place, you're able to have experts who address each of those areas of your divorce.

SPEAKER_04

Do either of you feel like there are certain couples that are more suited towards collaborative divorce than towards a traditional litigated case? Or do you feel like everyone could be well suited to collaborative?

SPEAKER_01

Everyone could be well suited to the collaborative process. What I look out for when I'm evaluating a case and determining whether it's appropriate for collaborative or not is one domestic violence. And that's the probably one of the most important things. And whether the couple are going to be comfortable sitting in the room together, people who are getting divorced usually don't trust each other anyway, but there are different levels of trust. And is it a trust that can be worked with in terms of full disclosure and transparency? If my client tells me that they're not going to be fully transparent, I know they're not appropriate for me as a client, first of all, but for the collaborative process. But sometimes you don't know when you start a case how your client is necessarily going to behave. So that's why also having the team, like if somebody's not disclosing something financially, usually we can get to that through our financial neutral, who's looking at the basic financial information that is produced by most people.

Legal, Emotional, Financial Lanes

SPEAKER_04

I think that that is an excellent point. There have been a few cases that I've been involved with that are where it's not clear at the beginning that someone is going to be withholding information. Then when it does become clear, that is very challenging for the collaborative team. What do both of you like about being part of a collaborative team like that? If you could think of an example in your mind of an experience that each of you had with a collaborative team and how it worked out so much better for the clients. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Who Is A Fit For Collaboration

SPEAKER_02

I would say for me, I think what I really enjoy about it, just I mean, being a therapist by nature, but stepping into this space as the coach, right? I I think it gives me the opportunity to make sure that in a sense everybody's voice is heard, but they are also seen at the table, right? Um, I would say that the goal is to never have a family torn into shreds. And especially from an emotional standpoint, um, because then no matter what, they would probably be coming to see me anyway. So whether they're coming to see me because we have other professionals in place, because parents can't get along with kids and who's bringing, you know, the carrots to soccer practice, or, you know, you didn't pick them up on time. Like some of those elements start in the divorce process. And if there can be a process that is not as adversarial as what you just alluded to earlier, Jackie, and we can have a different outlook sometimes that changes the process looking ahead. So for me, that's probably the piece that I like about it the most is because I'm able to see the outcome when you don't have a collaborative process, when you don't have a team, when you feel like everyone is fighting for their thoughts and feelings to be heard. Um, the other thing that I would add too is when you are sitting in this space as a team, everyone at that table pretty much knows whether we forget it sometimes or not, as professionals, is that it's bigger than just getting a divorce. It's bigger than just our finances, and it's bigger than just our children. It is a true vision or dream that is ending. Nobody gets married to get divorced, right? And so I say that to my clients often, regardless of what space I'm sitting in. But that is the reality. Like nobody gets married to get divorced. So when you come to this space to get divorced, this is a whole new process. It's a grieving process, and the whole team is a part of your grieving process. We we all in your business. Different opportunity for a family. I love that.

SPEAKER_04

That is perfect explanation.

SPEAKER_01

What about you, Elisa? I think going along with what Saida said, it's the ability to look to the future that I really like. So to anticipate for this family what their circumstances are and what needs they might need, not just this year, but looking toward the future. We can we can help our clients, especially with children and especially with young children, have that kind of an act, that kind of an outlook. And like Saida said, we're helping people through their grieving process, their broken dreams, and having a family at the end have an outcome where there's they're talking, they're good going to their children's or their grandchildren's graduations and birthday parties and being in the same room and sharing those things without resentment or without having to prepare themselves to be able to go, because a lot of the problems that they that they have, they've been able to work out in the room supported by the professionals. They're not on their own. They're supported by their professionals.

Transparency, Trust, And Financial Neutral

SPEAKER_04

I feel that from a financial planner's perspective, working in the divorce space, I love the transparency. I love that I don't have to collect information from the other side and try to do the digging and find out, okay, well, we didn't ask the perfect question about what kind of benefits that person has with their employment. We need to send another subpoena out and ask it in a different way. Everyone's turning over all the information. And it is a that to me is a dream. Working in a case that we have all the information at our fingertips and all the professionals and both parties, both clients can see it everything. There's always going to be one person that's more financially astute, whether that's the person that is the billpayer or the person making financial decisions. There's always going to be one. It's an opportunity for us to educate the other person and get them to the point where they can advocate for themselves. And we don't always, you know, I do a lot of that behind the scenes in a traditional litigated case, but I love doing it in the context of the collaborative case. We might have a side meeting one-on-one where I'm coaching that person on the financial issues. And maybe it's even basic, like this is a stock, this is a bond, this is a money market, and they don't need to feel embarrassed about that because it's just the two of us. But I love seeing them in the next meeting then, really kind of participating and understanding and becoming a participant in their own financial future. And that process to me is fantastic. I that's my favorite part of collaborative.

SPEAKER_01

That's great. Yeah. As an as an attorney who's done litigation, I have to say that one of the best parts of the collaborative process is having a financial neutral who's collecting all of that financial information for both clients. And you don't have to worry that you didn't ask the right question. They're going to provide all the information that you are asking for as the fine, as the and the expert working on their case for them. It's a huge money saver, too. Let's just really, when I talk to clients, discovery and litigation is very expensive. It's very labor intensive. And like you said, if you didn't ask the question in the right way or missed something, you have to send out another subpoena or another discovery request. Both attorneys are doing that in the collaborative divorce process. The financial neutral Jackie, you're doing all you're doing that work for both clients. And so everybody's benefiting.

SPEAKER_04

I I agree. I've been thinking about what kinds of questions to ask. And these are questions that I want to know from both of you. I want to know the answers. Um what do you what do both of you do um in a collaborative situation when someone says it's not about the money, but it clearly is? And that's a sort of a situation where I'm always really grateful that if there's a financial, if there's a mental health professional on the team, how do um, you know, what do you think are some good ways to handle that when as a group, we all know that it's about the money. And even you know, also from an attorney's perspective, Elisa, when one client is saying, well, it's not about the money, but it seems like it is.

Educating The Less Financially Savvy

SPEAKER_02

It's a tech one. My biggest, I mean, my next question, as soon as that is the response, is then tell me what is it about, right? Because I think it's also about what do we categorize money as, right? Like, do I feel like you owe me something? Do I feel like you're entitled to you're supposed to take care of me? Do I feel like, you know, I've been raising these kids or watching these kids or doing all of this and you've been out working and, you know, living your other life? It could be a thousand different reasons. And sometimes is money the only way for me to gut punch you, especially if I'm pissed at you. You know, so for me, it is about figuring out, then if it's not about the money, then what is it about? And then if it is about the money, right? And you're able to get to a point of admitting that it is, then what kind of conversation do we need to have with the financial or Jackie or your attorney so that everybody can be on the same page of finding a space where we can compromise and move forward?

SPEAKER_04

I think that another what you what you bring up is something that does come up in a collaborative case, and it could be any topic. Is it okay for us to bring up something uncomfortable for people to talk about? You know, in a collaborative setting, there's, you know, if the right professionals are involved, a lot of times there are there are things that come up that are uncomfortable for people to discuss. What do you think about that, Alisa? Do you think that it's it's a good thing to bring up those uncomfortable topics?

Naming The Hard Stuff: “It’s Not About Money”

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I think it's a very good thing. I think part of our training is learning how to sit in the room when it does become uncomfortable. Um, as as the professionals, we have to learn how to do that. If something uncomfortable comes up in the meeting, in the collaborative meeting, we can always take a break to help our client to give them the support and the guidance they might need to deal with the uncomfortable issue that's just been put on the table, whether it's, you know, the desire for more money because the I don't I hate your guts and I want to hurt you, um, which can be a very uncomfortable discussion to have, like once it's acknowledged that that's the feeling in the room, because that has to be worked out to cases that I've had where somebody's had an affair and hasn't really wanted to talk about it, but it's going to affect the case and the outcome. So it needs to be disclosed up is one thing that that we as collaborative professionals can prepare clients for that conversation. And because working with a team who talks to each other, the other attorney and the divorce coach can also help prepare the other person for what they might be hearing or what they hear. Again, the the support of the team is so important in the collaborative divorce process. And it's not like these are issues that are only happening in the collaborative cases, these are issues that are going on in in highly litigate litigious cases too. But they don't have people, they don't have professionals to support them to get them through it to a satisfactory outcome.

SPEAKER_04

I agree. And I think also that what I've learned in in my collaborative work is that I'm watching the attorneys model how to communicate with each other that in a way that the clients can follow suit. So when the attorneys are modeling, well, this is how I'm gonna talk to the, you know, the other attorney about this issue, it's a very helpful to set the stage for people later on to have that communication continue in a civil way. Um, even I hear clients sometimes pick up the language that's being used to discuss a matter without the emotion that they might have heard from one of the attorneys or the the mental health coach from the previous meeting. So I think it really does set a good tone. Those are really good points. What do you think, Saida? What do you think in terms of high conflict personalities? Sometimes uh we have high conflict personalities in a collaborative case. And the process is designed to be cooperative. How do you, as the mental health coach, handle that?

Handling Uncomfortable Topics As A Team

SPEAKER_02

Smiling, because those are just my favorite people. Seriously. I don't know why I like high conflict or high conflex. That's the word. That's that might be the new word I start using. But I would say one way to handle them is knowing from the beginning that they may need a little bit more, right? So some people need an hour to an hour and a half to process. Some people don't. It's being aware of what the triggers are. That's the important piece for the mental health professional of having that meeting prior to everyone meeting is knowing what the triggers are, knowing what the goals are, you know, knowing if someone shuts down in the meeting that that's received as a trigger, or, you know, because that might be something that happened at home on a regular basis, or vice versa, raising your voice, saying things under your breath, any of that, right? Knowing as the clinician, and then even putting whatever our ground rules are, maybe as we go into these meetings so that we can stay focused and aligned, letting the team know ahead of time, maybe we can only get out two to three hours. After that, we might have to pause. You know, we may have to do a two to three hour sessions maybe every other week or every week because this might be too much, or if we give them too much space, that gives room for more problems to arise. I would just say being transparent with the team, but also being aware that you may have to give a little bit more as the coach in these spaces.

SPEAKER_04

Very helpful. Thank you. When we talk about collaborative cases, there is no court involved. What is no what does no court really mean in practical terms?

Managing High-Conflict Personalities

SPEAKER_01

That's a great question, Jackie. So, what it means is that we don't, in what most people know, in a litigated case, the divorce is initiated by filing a complaint with the court in your jurisdiction against the other person. And what we're doing is resolving all of the issues before filing that complaint. And the other big difference is that once we've resolved all the issues for that that happen in a divorce, resolve the property division and support issues and parenting time if there are children, we write up a settlement agreement and a judgment of divorce in the collaborative divorce process. And then we're able to file in Michigan what we call a joint complaint for divorce. So it's party A and party B in the matter of, instead of party A again. Against party B. That makes a big difference also. So eventually, yes, you have to go to court to have the judge divorce you, you know, put the final signature on the judgment to make sure that you are legally and officially divorced, but not until everything is resolved. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

So it keeps the court out for the most of the case, and then you just have the court involved at the very end.

What “No Court” Practically Means

SPEAKER_01

Just at the very end. And really to go um to appear in in front of the judge and say, Your Honor, we've we've been resolved everything through the collaborative divorce process. Our clients have reached an agreement, and you see the judge just smile because that's how the judges really want us to be able to resolve things outside of court. And right and what that means is the clients have way more control and are making decisions that are good for their specific family. Right. You're right. Dad does not want to try cases. And judges acknowledge that they don't know the family, they don't know the specifics. And the people who know that family best and what's going to be best for mom, dad, husband, wife are people who are involved, are the people in that relationship.

SPEAKER_04

So let's let's finish up with just talking a little divorce with respect week is coming up. And that is a test. March first through eighth.

Control, Judges, And Family-Specific Solutions

SPEAKER_01

March first through eighth. Okay, so Okay, so Divorce with Respect Week is a national movement to raise awareness about the collaborative divorce. It started in California by the collaborative group California, and it's moved across the nation. This is Michigan's second year um honoring and bringing awareness about the collaborative divorce process. This is our second year participating in divorce with respect week. It is um by raising the awareness. One of the ways we do that is not just through our social media and talking about it, talking about it on today's um podcast. People can sign up for a 30-minute consultation at no charge to learn about their options for going through divorce if they're thinking about it. There's no obligation. There, you know, there there is no fee again, and people can just learn about these non-adversarial approaches to ending your marriage. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, well, that information will be in the show notes for this episode. And again, I want to thank you, Elisa and Saida. Thank you so much for taking your time out today to talk with us about collaborative divorce. And I hope that and people that are listening really got some insights into what makes it so special and unique as a way to move forward with their life.

Divorce With Respect Week Details

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. We appreciate you. I hope so too. Thank you, Jackie. Yeah. Thank you. And can I just add that the um the link for Divorce with Respect Week that you'll put in the show notes, when people click on that link, they go to the general page. They then have to look for Michigan. And when they click on Michigan, they'll see all of the collaborative professionals who have signed up to participate in Divorce with Respect Week. And the person can choose the professional, whether it's an attorney they want to speak with, a divorce coach they want to speak with first, or a financial expert that they want to speak with first, and to have that 30-minute consultation.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, awesome. And so you brought up a good point. A lot of our listeners are not in Michigan. So there are other states that are participating in Divorce with Respect Week. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know all the states right now, but um, or even how many right now. But yeah, there are quite a few. Okay, because like I said, it's a national movement spreading across from California to New York. Okay, great.

Sponsor: DAWN Divorce Attorneys For Women

SPEAKER_03

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Apps, Joint Cards, And Prevention

How To Send Questions & Follow

SPEAKER_04

Today's question comes from Lisa, who is in the middle of a divorce. And Lisa wrote to us that she is wondering how to handle extracurricular expenses for her minor children once the divorce is over. So that sounds to me like she's still in the process of divorce, which is great because that gives us an opportunity to talk a little bit about what, how to set expectations and how to set Lisa up for success with her co-parent after the divorce is over. So just for some basics, child support in most states does not cover the actual expenses of your children. So, generally speaking, child support is meant to turn on the lights in the house, to buy food for the family, to pay for general living expenses. It's not specifically meant to pay for clothing or sports and all different kinds of hobbies and allowances and college savings. Child support isn't meant for any of those things. So it's really smart that Lisa is starting to think now about how to handle those kinds of expenses for her children once the divorce is over. Because she's correct, in my experience, in many cases, if you don't have anything specifically in the judgment, it's going to be difficult to negotiate how to work that out in a peaceful way when the divorce is done. So there are a lot of different methods. For many people, what they do is they negotiate during the divorce process that any agreed upon extracurricular expenses will be shared in a percentage between the two parties. Sometimes they might agree to a 50-50 split. Sometimes, if there is a big income differential, they might agree to something that's closer to the proportional percentages of their income. So for example, if wife makes 80% of the income and husband makes 20%, extracurricular expenses would be paid 80-20 with the wife paying more. Now, you might have heard me slip in a little word in there. I said agreed upon extracurricular expenses. And this is where it can get tricky because one parent might think, hey, those dance lessons, that is a key component of our child's well-being. Or the other one might feel like, you know what? I think that's a waste of money that we don't have. So it would be great while you're negotiating your case to try to put together a list of your children's anticipated expenses. And if they're little, it's difficult because now you have to budget things in that they don't currently spend money on. So little people, little expenses, bigger people, bigger kids. Now you have car payments, car insurance, um, cell phones. Even a lot of little kids have cell phones nowadays, uh, so that we can keep track of them when they're with the other parent or at school. So it could be a situation where you've got um all kinds of expenses. I highly recommend that you sit down with your spouse before the settlement is signed and you talk about what are the expenses that we agree on. What do we think they're gonna it's going to cost us to pay for these expenses? Now, for some couples, it might be worthwhile to look into if they have significant assets available to them to set aside a certain amount of money while you're negotiating the divorce. This is gonna be the money that will be used for our kids for agreed upon expenses. And maybe both people have access to an account, or maybe just one person is going to be the billpayer. That is another way to circumvent potential problems down the road if you already have the money set aside. Now, a lot of people can't afford to do that, but if you can afford to do it, it's worth considering. Another great option is to consider using one of the fantastic apps that are out there that you can use to track this. There are specific apps where you can upload and any receipt that you've spend and you can request payment for a portion of that expense from your former spouse. And a lot of parents use that. I know that our Family Wizard has a component that does that. Um, there are other apps out there that you can explore that would be able to provide that kind of record keeping for you where it eliminates the contention between the parties about, you know, who spent what on what. Um, I do think another idea that I have seen other couples do is they have a joint credit card that they continue to use together to fund agreed-upon extra expenses for the children. And those every month that credit card is paid by both parties in the percentage that they agree to. And again, it could be 50-50, and it could be in relation to their relative incomes, and it could be something else completely that they decide. What I would encourage Lisa and other parents that they do in the process of the divorce is that they make sure to think about how those expenses are going to be paid when the divorce is done. Don't wait for that to come up, you know, with your attorney. Your attorney is dealing with a lot of high-level items for you, I'm sure. Um, spousal support, parenting time, all of those things that are really going to make a large difference in your case. You want to make sure that some of these little things are addressed so that you don't end up back in court in front of a judge arguing about who's going to pay for your children's extracurricular expenses or their car insurance or their car payments. Those are things that it would be good for you to advocate for yourself to anticipate that there's going to be an issue and try to figure out how I can mitigate that right now. Thanks for tuning in. And again, we would love to get your questions answered on air. If you want to send us your questions to divorcerichpod at gmail.com, we would love to answer them. Thanks for listening. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen to Divorce Rich Podcast. If you like this podcast, please follow us on Apple or anywhere that you download podcasts and share this link with any friends or family that you think might benefit from this information.

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Jacki Roessler, CDFA

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