Roots to Revenue

Award Winning Landscaper Reveals Secrets to Pricing and Getting Clients

• Robbie Lynn • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Navigating the Landscaping Industry: Insights and Networking with Paul Baker  from Tapestry Design Studios

In this episode of the Roots to Revenue podcast,  Paul Baker from Holland Landscapes discuss the intricacies of the landscaping industry. 

Paul shares his extensive experience in landscaping and garden design, highlighting the importance of detailed quotations, managing client expectations, and the benefits of joining professional organizations like the Association of Professional Landscapers (APL). 

The conversation also covers effective networking strategies, the challenges of client involvement in design changes, and the necessity of having robust paperwork to protect both client and business. 

Additionally, the impact of a strong online presence and the role of blogs in generating business leads. 

The episode underscores the value of networking and collaboration within the industry to raise standards and ensure satisfaction in garden projects.


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Paul:

Some people will get a quote and it will just say estimate to build patio 5, 000, but our price is maybe 15, but there's no detail in that and they don't know what they're getting. And they'll often get a 10 patio built like a 5 patio. The worst clients are when they get involved too much. They've employed a designer. employed a landscaper and they're then changing stuff all the time and they're often the ones that end up not being very pleased with their garden because you've got to be sure. I don't want to raise the standard of the industry. We're not trying to sort of stab each other in the back. I want to see all the companies do well and making good money and building great gardens.

Robbie:

What about you and welcome to the Roots to Revenue podcast. In the studio today we've got Paul and Paul's going to tell us about how to network properly. But before we get to that I have to tell you about the sponsor. This show is in association with Jobber. Jobber is scheduling and invoicing and quoting software that I've used for the last 10 years to run my business. Not only does it get me paid faster, but my customers also love it. There's going to be links down in the show description where you can get a 14 day free trial. Paul, how are we? Yeah, good.

Jason:

Thank you.

Paul:

Do you want

Robbie:

to

Jason:

tell us a little bit about your history?

Paul:

I've been landscaping now for 25, 26 years. We started up a garden design company called Tapestry Design Studios back in 2016. This was on the basis that we wanted to encompass design within our business and employ a proper designer. We've been designing our own gardens for years, but we wanted to do it properly. So we found a really good designer to work with. She came on board with us. She's now left, but we've got an even better one, Katie. She helps us run tapestry. She's very on the ball with it. Great designer, the clients love her. And then in, I think it was in lockdown, actually, a lockdown project, I started a website called My Garden Design. And that is a website for landscapers who, like us, didn't have the time to design gardens, but struggled to find local designers. So we guide them with our website. We ask for the photos and the measurements, which they do already. There's a questionnaire to fill out, which is multiple choice. It's really quite simple. They can give it to their client or fill it out with them, and they can do it online or print it off. And once we've got all the information together, it forms a brief. We've got a network of 22 designers who then can basically pitch for this job. And then we'll produce that plan within four weeks in the landscaper's name. So it gives them an in house design service.

Robbie:

And tell me this here, because you're the first proper landscaper we've had. How do you think landscaping compares to the garden makeover programs that we have?

Paul:

Yeah, they're good for drumming up interest. in the industry and but budgets are very often unrealistic. They're working on lots of favors, lots of work that's been done for free. There's one program on the BBC that's really good. They do, they actually talk proper budgets and, and proper construction. Because you really, you

Robbie:

really want to educate people because a lot of people, a lot of people are very green and I'm sure you get it yourself and I know your website has it, you have a lot of really helpful blogs and you detail the true cost of things, so I suppose whenever somebody's inquiring a bit of court you can nearly send them that information and say look

Paul:

yeah we have a pricing page or two pricing pages one to explain stuff there's another one with example projects so this project costs between this amount of money just to give people an idea every garden has been spoken it's very hard to say that garden is going to cost you 30 000 pounds but it will give people an idea That we're not talking thousands, we're in the tens of thousands for sure. What's a too small a job for you? In all honesty, we do all sorts of, I'll hang a gate for 500 pounds or, you know, do a quick simple fence. You can't be fussy, because that, that hanging that gate might turn into a driveway. And if it doesn't, it's a job. So yeah, some people will say, they'll put on their website, we won't work under 20, 000 pounds. That's up to them. I personally don't think it's a good idea. I'd rather speak to someone first and qualify them myself.

Robbie:

Especially if investing in investing 20 or 30, 000 pounds into a project that's it's a considerable sum of money. Getting you around to do a small job is a good way to find out how you operate. Absolutely. So at the minute, just completely off base. I'm currently looking for a virtual assistant. It's something that's come up in another podcast I did and the fellow was talking about it. I phoned somebody local and I was hoping to find out how they manage themselves. They've never got back to me.

Paul:

Oh, wow. That's not good, is it? Yeah, and it's quite surprising. I'll go to see a client and they'll say, thanks for turning up. I'll go, that's fine. And they'll say, we've called five people and you're the only one that's actually called us back or turned up. Even if we're busy, I'll email them or call them back and say, happy to see you, but you're going to have to wait three or four weeks. Is that okay? And if they don't want us, that's fine.

Robbie:

What would you find your lead time for? Um,

Paul:

it can vary, I mean in the real busy times you could have a lead time of two weeks sometimes. At the moment our lead time is getting on for May and I'm looking at booking inquiries in at the moment for about three weeks time. So, relatively quickly.

Robbie:

And when would you say, would you ever say, would you ever say to a customer, because I operate just as a two man team, most of the time we're fully booked out, these days you just have to say to people, I'm sorry, I'm fully booked. Would you ever say to a customer, look, it's going to be six months, or would you say, look, we're just too busy at the

Paul:

minute? Honesty is the best policy. Just say, look, I'm busy for six months, if you're willing to wait, you're We can work along there. The process, including design can take up to six months sometimes anyway. So it gives them time to think about what they've got. So if we have a design, the client can look at it, digest it, think about it. And I can guarantee you in three months time, they'll start making changes because they've thought about it. They might've even sprayed it out in their garden roughly to get an idea what it's going to look like. Materials might change as well. And sometimes they're the better gardens because they've had time to digest it, think about it, and then really get what they want. Have

Robbie:

you ever, without naming names, had, can you tell us any stories that you've had, like bad customers, or bad people, slow to pay, or?

Paul:

You don't sometimes get the slow payers, but it's all in, you know, paperwork's essential, as you know. Make sure you've got your terms and conditions watertight, and you explain to people, right at the very beginning, if you accept us, This is our terms, these are our conditions, this is when we want pay in, this is how much it's going to be. I'd say sometimes the worst clients are when they get involved too much. They've employed a designer, employed a landscaper, and they're then changing stuff all the time. And they're often the ones that end up not being very pleased with their garden because they've got their garden, not what the designer has done, or what we've done.

Robbie:

That's whenever you start, maybe, getting into a problem with pricing. Because if they're coming along and they're asking for constant changes, then you really need to re quote to keep yourself right. And if they're making constant changes and then all of a sudden you say, well, your bill was 20, 000 but now it's 30, 000.

Paul:

Yeah, I had that relatively recently where a client had changed their mind. Lovely people. quite indecisive. And then once we'd agreed a quote, agreed to specifications, the guys turned up, cleared the site, and then it changed their views on how they wanted the garden. And it was major changes. And I did say to them at the time, we can pull off, I can give you a quote, but then we're not gonna be able to come back for three months. So you can do that. Or we'll go on a day rate and material costs. And I'll invoice you weekly, show you the bill of quantities that we've used. And yes, it went like that. But then that job ended up. being double what they originally were expecting to pay, but it was double the work, double the materials, but yeah, it led to a real nasty situation, which I don't want to get into again.

Robbie:

All the work that you do is quoted for, it's not on a day rate then, typically.

Paul:

That's it, yeah. Ultimately, we've got a design, we can specify from that, we can quote from that. It will change. Most jobs do. The client might want to extend the patio, make it bigger, make it smaller, change the materials. They've actually seen a big sample of it and they don't like it, but that's okay because it gives you the time to re quote for that part of the job or bring in a variation order for that.

Jason:

Do you get many clients, as soon as they see, like, everywhere clear, do they look at the land again and be like, hold on a minute? And it really like they think there's more room than they thought sort of thing to change stuff?

Paul:

Yeah, it happens a lot. You clear a site and that happens very quickly. It's one of the quickest things that happens on the job. And they go, wow, we've got all this land. And then they start questioning things. Start saying, actually, I want to get some height in the garden, but the height's going to be there with the finished design. It's already been taken into a good designer. We're not only thinking about the layout of the ground, but what the heights are as well within the garden. It's sometimes nurturing the clients. Calm their nerves. So don't worry. It's going to be alright. You can see everything at the moment, but once the plants are in and they mature, it's going to be fine.

Jason:

Right, so it gives it depth to the Absolutely,

Paul:

yeah. And it'll give them the privacy, because sometimes you open up a garden and all of a sudden there's windows they can see from neighbours houses that they haven't been able to see before, but that's already been considered in the design and a new tree will go in its place and hide that again.

Robbie:

If you give a customer a quote, because a lot of trades will work off estimates, what happens if there's unforeseen Is there a quote given, but on foreseen circumstances?

Paul:

We work on quotations and we do, in our quotations, have very detailed specifications. We'll say how many skips or grab lorries are going to come out of the job, what depth base we put down. Now, say for example, we get some real soft ground and we need to put in a different type of base or more depth of it. Then we'll have that chat with a client and say, look, we've got to dig down another 100mm to make sure it's on sound ground. And we'll say, we reckon it's going to be this much, and we'll give them an estimated price at that time. So, yeah, you've got to be sure, because some people will get a quote, and it will just say, estimate, to build patio, 5, 000, but our price is maybe 15, 000. But there's no detail in that, and they don't know what they're getting. And they'll often get a 10, 000 patio built like a 5, 000 patio. Laughter.

Robbie:

Are

Paul:

you a member, I

Robbie:

know you're a member of an

Paul:

association, do you want to talk a wee bit about Yeah sure, I'm a member of the Association of Professional Landscapers. They're part of the Horticultural Trades Association and they established in I think it was 1995 perhaps. And they are aimed at mainly domestic landscapers of all shapes and sizes. A good 50 percent of them are companies with up to 250, 000 turnover. So the perception of these companies, organizations of big companies is completely wrong. There are members that are all big companies, but they are, they, they give more to the smaller companies rather than take out of it.

Robbie:

You can, you can, you can learn a lot from networking with other people. Absolutely. You tend to find as well. I know from just a member of the bigger guys would help a lot of the smaller people because they're not. They're not a threat to them. No, they're not a threat. You know, sometimes looking up you go, Oh, I'm better than their hills, but you're not really. No, no, you're not. You're not really. And a lot of people will give you.

Paul:

Yeah.

Robbie:

It's amazing. It's the

Paul:

same for me as well. I will look at newer companies or, you know, and even companies have been well established and we always talk. I might phone up a mate who's been going similar time to me and we'll pick each other's brains over something. We've all got our strong points or weak points and we can help each other out. And it was networking that actually got me onto the APL probably about 15 years ago. It was around doing the APL events, being there and on social media really promoting it because I felt so strongly. Because it helped me as a, as a 18 year old going to these meetings with companies that had, they were building million pound gardens back in early 2000s. And I learned so much from them and it wasn't a look at us, we're great, you're small. It was look at us, this is what we're doing and this is how we can help you. We want to help you get to this if you want to do that. Networking, it's a bit of free time you need to have, but it costs nothing.

Robbie:

You need to spend the time on it then. Even the grips that come with it, so these days all those grips come with it. Facebook communities as well. Yes. A lot of people would sit back and not really get involved. If you don't really get involved, you get out what you put in.

Paul:

Agreed. Yeah. We will get sometimes people join the APL and after about a year or two, they'll quit. And sometimes they go, look, I didn't have the time to put into it. I know that. But some people just think, you that you become a member of an association and all of a sudden work's going to come in. You've got to go to these events, you've got to put, put your time out of your day and go and go to seminars, go to the awards and meet people. That's where you learn the best.

Robbie:

I think as well then, if you have a problem and if you've been to a couple of events and you've met somebody, then it's easier to message them or pick up the phone and say like, do you remember meeting me at such and such a do? I'm having a bit of a problem. I'm hoping you can help me. There's more chance that you'll get

Paul:

Oh, absolutely. That you'll get

Robbie:

really good advice.

Paul:

Yeah. It's quite interesting because I was chatting to a guy a few weeks ago and he was one of the guys that used to help me as an 18 year old and he phoned me up the other day asking for my advice. And that's the sort of circle it turns. And it's really nice. We actually talked about it and had a bit of a laugh about that because it's just nice that, you know, you're helping out. And the landscaping industry is small. We know a lot of people and all we want to do, it's quite weird. I think it's quite unique where we're trying to help out our competitors because we just want to raise the standard of the industry. We're not trying to sort of stab each other in the back and whatnot. I want to see all the companies do well and making good money and building great gardens.

Robbie:

A lot of lawn care companies would. We all network together and you might have a company that's 30 miles down the road and their target is slightly different than yours. So you're not, although you're quite close to each other, you're not really, sometimes you overlap, but if a company is 50 or 100 miles down the road, you're never really going to overlap with them.

Paul:

Yeah, it's nice and I would rather quote against someone that I would network with because I know they're going to be delivering a similar service for a similar price and they're comparable. Cool. We're not going to be up against your man in a van who's just going to do it really cheaply with no specifications. They then get to actually pick you as your business, not the

Robbie:

price, which is important. A man in a van would have a different target market than you guys. I think everyone says I was at the bottom, or I was, I definitely was at the bottom. We all started at the bottom, working our way up. I'm definitely not at the top yet.

Paul:

No, there is a, there's a place for everyone and it's nice to compete against the people that are in the same place as you because it makes it an equal playing field for everyone. The client will get the best garden that way as well.

Robbie:

What are those sort of benefits for any landscapers watching this? Yep. If they join the APL, you guys have a regular meetups, you have the awards?

Paul:

Yes. Yeah. We have the awards every March in London, the brewery in London. It's normally at, it's fantastic. There's over 400 people there. You get to network with lots of landscapers, designers, there's suppliers there. Get to see some fantastic gardens. You get to listen to some speeches. And then if you're in the awards, you get an award. That's great. You know, you can use that for your marketing. I think we've won, About 12, 13, including the Supreme Award, which is the top award, it's like the best in show, if you like. We won that a few years ago now, and It's a nice little plug for yourself. Oh, yeah! I've got to. But it was, it's a great thing, you know, you take the guys out for the day, and if they win an award, it's such a boost for them. And then afterwards, we all go down to the pub and have a few beers. Put the wells to the right, it's good. The other, other benefits would be a member's toolbox. So that includes documents like terms and conditions, contracts, templates, all kinds of different things that you might not think you need. Risk assessment templates, for example, all that sort of stuff. You get advice lines for free health and safety advice, free HR advice, tax advice, lots of other things there as well. You get obviously a name and a website. So that does generate a little bit of work.

Robbie:

I think then that's, uh, do you guys police who joins or not?

Paul:

Yeah, it's probably one of the stricter ones in our industry. So what

Robbie:

happens there if somebody, if somebody wants to come and join APL? That just talked me through that process.

Paul:

They'll apply and the inquiries sent over to the team and then Phil Tremaine, who's the APL national manager, will speak to the people, come and visit them, and he'll just do a quick assessment of what their business looks like now, and he'll tell them where he needs to improve. What he does is as well, he'll give you the templates to prove it's not an elitist club where if you don't make the cut, that's it, you're out. It's all about improving people. And then what happens is, is you need to fill out the templates. You need to show that you know what you're doing with it. You have your inspection, your pass, you're in, and then you are in checked every year for your, your legal side of things. So your, your van insurance, your professional, not professional demency so much, but your, um, public liability and employee liability. Health and safety. There are some things that aren't legal, but they are mandatory for the APL. So you must do your risk assessments must have method statements, health and safety policy. All that sort of stuff has to be done annually. And then on a rolling on a rolling sort of three year thing, we have a site visit for quality of workmanship. a health and safety checkup and then an office side of stuff as well.

Robbie:

That must all cost quite a bit and I take it that's where the majority of the membership cost goes to. Much, much does it cost to join your association? Oh, that's

Paul:

a good question. I think for the band, I pay about 86 a month and I'm band three So it's getting on for about a thousand pound a month, uh, sorry, a year, but we get more than our money's worth out of that for sure. We pay it monthly. So

Robbie:

even for, if you're watching this and you're starting up and you're wondering what the heck it is, somebody's going to come out. But like you say, it keeps you. Even the health and safety stuff, it really improves. Whenever I start making videos, whenever, whenever I start making videos, the internet tells you what, the internet tells what you're doing wrong.

Jason:

Being part of that organisation though, especially for like potential customers, it, it probably reassures them that there's a set standard of what you're doing. A

Paul:

lot of people haven't heard of the APL. It's just the way, there's so many people that don't even know you should be, you should be gas safe registered. But what it is, is it's up to us to promote it. Did you know we're an APL member? No, what's that? You explain it to them, and then they go, Oh, okay, that's good. We're also endorsed by the government, so there's a Trustmark scheme, and we're the only landscape association within that. So again, it's given our clients an extra layer of security. We have a independent complaints process through Trustmark as well. So if they do have a complaint and they're not getting anywhere with the landscape, it unfortunately does happen. They can then go to the APL and then they can make a complaint and it's done through a third party. To make sure that something can be arranged, you know, we don't want it to go to court or nothing like that. And most of the time a complaint is resolved before it gets that far. But there is a place for that, where if you went with someone who isn't a part of an association, you don't have a formal complaints process, which is quite

Robbie:

important to have. Being a member of it then, it's another, it's another trust thing to get a complaint. Customer to

Paul:

absolutely trust is so important. Yeah, you will hear people all the time saying I'm trying to find a trades person, but I don't know who to go for. I can't trust no one. That helps. That helps for sure. A long way.

Robbie:

If you're enjoying this video, don't forget to smash the like button. And if you're finding it useful, and if you think one of your friends or family member would enjoy this podcast, send them a text or an email of the link to it. How do you find

Paul:

Websites is so important. You've got to have a good optimized website. That's key. That's your shop and you're using social media. We do blogs, all everything, trying to get into that shop basically. So you need to be, uh, A huge online presence, you need to be active on your social media, posting stories on Instagram and doing reels on Instagram as well to show the, the, the, the construction of a garden. Because a lot of people see a picture of a finished garden and don't understand what goes into that garden. There's so much more underground that you don't see.

Robbie:

It can be very satisfying as well, especially in Jurgen, watching reels of things. Getting stuff built because you can see it happening before your eyes. There's a lot of people are doing really well on Instagram with surveys.

Paul:

People will follow a project because the project is not normally shorter than three weeks over the course of a period of time, maybe six to eight, 12 weeks. Even sometimes they're watching it grow.

Robbie:

And do you do any paid advertising? No,

Paul:

I don't. We Google AdWords is a big no for us. Some people say yes, some people say no. But. I think you have to spend so much money on it. Then I don't think it's worth it.

Robbie:

I tried, um, for the, the lawn treatments, I've, I've tried the Google AdWords myself in the past and it's just a money pit. And then if you, I was working with somebody who was then charging me a fee and then they were saying your website wasn't good enough. So I got a new website rebuilt and that obviously comes with a cost. And then it still doesn't work. And he says, Oh, well it must be something else. And you're like, this is just one big massive money. But, and you might So we were advertising for lawn treatments, but He was trying to narrow down the pool so he was putting ad words on there for grass cutting when somebody's phoning me up saying can you come and cut my lawn and it was a wee small there's a wee small garden at 15 quid and and it's cost you 50 and you're just like

Paul:

no no it's not worth it we've done paid advertising on facebook quite a few times and it never gets you anything you might get a few more followers on there but It's just not worth it. I think regular content, good SEO, good blogs. Blogs are very important. Google likes new content that's relevant to your business. So

Robbie:

I've seen some of your blogs, a lot of your blogs are really good.

Paul:

Big diary, a big backlog now. Loads of them. Yeah. So there's some really good information in there. Some of it's informative. Some of it is, this is what we've been up to. We get a lot of readership on our blogs. People come up to me and say, I love your blogs.

Robbie:

They find the blogs, they find the blogs as a slow burner. But I know you guys have been doing the blogs for a long time. So yeah, because they tend to take a while for them to feed through into Google.

Paul:

Yeah, they do. Yeah, you can't just do it for a year and go, well, that didn't work. You need to carry on and just do it. And it's the more content you have in a website, the more domain authority you'll get. And the more people see it and it does show when I, whenever I go to a networking event, people will say to me, I read your blogs. I love them. I think they're brilliant. It's so interesting. And it's the same story. The same person writes our blogs and does our social media. And that whole sort of tone just across the whole world and it just works really well. Yeah. Paul, thank you very much for coming over. Where have you come from today? Come from Colchester today. So about an hour drive, hour on the plane and then an hour here. So thanks very much. It's been good. No, thank you for inviting me. Good man. very much. Cheers.