.jpeg)
Roots to Revenue
Welcome to the monthly podcast, where small business owners from across the UK and Ireland discuss the challenges of running their businesses and what they have overcome to become successful.
Running a small business can be challenging, with many ups and downs; this podcast is jam-packed with tips and tricks for growing your business today.
Whether you're just planting the seeds of your startup or looking to branch out, 'Roots to Revenue.'
Tune in, SMASH that like button and let's grow together.
Roots to Revenue
How One Man Grew a Multi-Million Pound Scaffolding from his living room
Scaling a Scaffolding Business to New Heights – The Robert Andrews Story
In this episode, Robert Andrews from Advance NI Scaffolding shares how he grew his business from a small team in 2012 to a £5 million+ operation with over 76 staff. We get into the real behind-the-scenes: safety, systems, staff training, and the game-changing Layer scaffolding system. Robert also opens up about handling pressure, mental health, and what people often get wrong about the industry.
A proper look at what it really takes to build something big.
Try out Jobber for FREE with a 14-day trial with your exclusive discount Root to Revenue https://go.getjobber.com/premierlawns
The problem is that it's always been that price always felt like it was always English companies that were coming in and, and getting to work because they were always told that people in Northern Ireland couldn't do it. Or why should you have to go away to, to work away from your family to earn decent money? You're still doing the same job. No job should be beneath you that you don't want to do it. If you're in the company, then everyone's trying to get to the same end goal. If we all pull together, then we'll create something that's pretty decent with our trade. There is a lot of people that do come behind and try and alter and adapt things that they shouldn't and to, for us to help cut that out a little bit. You could go back in two days time and something could be moved. Or you get a report to say, something's been moved or it's not been finished. Right? And we can say, no, it has been finished. Right? Because there's the evidence there that we have used. You know,
Robbie:what about the end of the day's video? We're gonna talk about how to scale your business to 5 million pound plus turnover. I've got Robert from Advance NI scaffolding, and he's gonna talk about the highs and lows and the challenges that he's had to overcome to grow his business to that size. We're also gonna focus on what he's planning to do for trainees to bring people into. The industry. Now, before we get into that, let me tell you about the sponsor. This channel is sponsored by Jobber. Jobber is software that I use within my own business, gets me paid faster. My customers like it the best of all. It frees up time within my business. If you're a busy business owner and you don't have any time, then I suggest that you have a look at Jobber. Now, there's a free trial if you want to try it out. There's so many things within your business that can be automated, and that's where Jobber comes in. There's an exclusive link down in the video
Jason:description to get your exclusive Premier Loans discount. It's Premier Loans Link slash Java. Robert, would you like to introduce yourself?
Robert:Hi, I'm Robert Andrews from Advanced and Ice Scaffolding. I'm a director and owner of the company. We've started business in 2012 and still ongoing now as we speak, hopefully for another. 12, 13 years after this, we've grew from a small team of probably six up to roughly 76, 78 guys now at the minute. And hopefully we can continue to grow, especially over the next sort of five to six years with, with a lot of things in place that we're looking to do now to try and keep the steady progression going. As we are, say, we're, we're probably one of the, I think we're the best. Scaffold company in Northern Ireland. Others might dis dispute that. But I think for what we do, the way we take safety as a massive part of the company. And But
Robbie:just to interrupt, is safety the biggest part? Yeah.
Robert:It, it has to be, it was always the focus from day one. It, it was not necessarily being the biggest. You didn't really necessarily wanna be the biggest, just want to be the best at what we've done. And I say like. Things that we've done and processes we brought in, like those companies in England aren't even doing some of the stuff that we're doing. Do
Robbie:you wanna talk about some of the, what those processes are?
Robert:Yeah. But, um, for starters, when we first started, we had, everything was done. All done. Like you are saying about the job, obviously the sponsor For, for the podcast, we've an app called Footprint. It basically digitalizes everything that we do from handovers, inspections, toolbox talks, weekly, weekly inspections, harness certificates. It covers a range of everything. It's great'cause it's on a handheld device, so the lads never use, never lose the phone. They might crack a screen now and again, but it, it, it was hard, I'm sure to the garden and trade that like when the lads are going out with Day Works books, they get soggy, they get, you lose pages and stuff like that, and then the clients don't get what they want. So for us it was,
Robbie:take it, everything's tracked within the app as well then?
Robert:Yeah, it's, it's all, uh, geotagged. So it's good for, if we have a job and we hand the job over, we can take photographs of the job. So you know what way it's been left.'cause obviously with our trade there is a lot of people that do come behind and try and alter and adapt things that they shouldn't. It should only be a trained scaffolder that does that. And so for us, help cut that out a little bit. I. We, we've obviously gone digitalized. Should we take photographs of it, get a handover so we get signed, send it to the client, client, and then accept it. And then you could go back in two days time and something could be moved or you get a report to say, something's been moved or it's not been finished. Right. And we can say, no, it has been finished. Right. Because there's the evidence there that we have used, you know, for the handover sheet. So it's been, it's been good in that way. And there's been a couple of incident where there has been issues. And then you've gone through your paperwork and you've found out then that this actually wast our issue. It was down to the main client or down to, to a other moving.
Robbie:And what sort of cost would it be a, a system like that?
Robert:The set up cost cost is about about two and a half grand for set up costs. Now that was for like a, a basic sort of package. I. We've been very good at our health and safety advisors helped develop the whole thing, break the way through before we actually got footprint in. I did try and do something with apple forms or forms, I think it was, and I used the guy, but it was very clunky and it would
Robbie:be hard to make it seamless across the entire team.
Robert:Yeah, it wasn't even that. It was like you were putting under your phone and the phones are crashing'cause the like the file was too big and then you were losing data and stuff and then that's not good either, because if you don't have the data there that you've just produced, then. Your double job, but it footprint's a great thing for us. It works really well. Karen Boyd, I'm sure you're not mind me mentioning his name. He's grown a really good business. Again, be Belfast based as well, so we like to support local companies if we can. I.
Robbie:So footprint, obviously. So footprints here in Northern Ireland is footprint in Northern
Robert:Ireland. Yeah. When I say local companies, obviously I'm not a local, I'm a blow in as people
Robbie:have called me. But, uh, I'm the same. I'm from
Robert:Kinad originally, so obviously very close to Belfast anyway.
Robbie:What brought you to North Ireland?
Robert:My wife. She, I met my wife in 10, in two th uh, 2000, and then she moved to lip pill for about six months and then. Wanted her to come home, missed home a be Shelby said, we'll give it a go over here. And we moved in. We've got two lovely kids now, twin girls, Grayson Abby, 16, just getting ready for GCSEs.
Jason:Very good. Can you talk us through Advance and I today, like team sizes, projects and the types of clients you have?
Robert:Team sizes say is about about 76, 78. Guys. And then we also have external sort of subbies as well that we do. So if you, if you account all'em, you're probably up to over a hundred sort of guys. And yeah, every sort of week does fluctuate up and down, depending on what contracts you've got on and stuff. Say we've got work in Northern Ireland, we've sort of work in the uk, mainland uk, and we've got bits and pieces in Europe as well. I've been lucky enough to do stuff, stuff over there too. So it's a challenge day to day because you never know what you're gonna get on a day to day thing. Things always change. So whether you've somebody sick or a relative's not well, or someone's not turning in, and it's a juggling session for the guys. Like we've got two contracts managers, we've got a health and safety advisor, a Qs, and a yard manager, and then obviously then all the guys then all filter in below supervisors and then operatives down, down below. But you can send a team of six guys to a site and maybe two of'em don't turn up. But then the two that don't turn up, maybe one of them drives, so then that means then that you, maybe four or five, you've gotta try and run around and get picked up and dropped off and stuff like that. So it is a challenging job for the contracts managers. Not so much for me now'cause I don't really sort of do that, but you still hear the stresses and the hassles that that go on and, and sometimes, probably most of the time they probably don't get enough credit for what they do because, uh, someone's always complaining at them, whether it be. The lads on site, or whether it be clients, maybe not happy'cause something's not being done quick enough, or they may want something done in unrealistic timeframes, which is normally the case. So managing
Jason:expectations.
Robert:Yeah, it's, I suppose, same with every job really, but we do manage it the best we possibly can. We, and I say the process we have in place, like from the phone rings to the end sort of user. It's all repetitive. So you're just following a system all the time.
Robbie:I'd imagine as well, if you're using a lot of subcontractors. Yeah. Would they tend to be less reliable than normal days or No,
Robert:not necessarily. No, because in, in our industry, lads like to work like as hard as it is. Lads do like to work and they like to do the hours. So we've got some lads that are doing, banging out a hundred hours a week. You know what I mean? Like, like, so it can go up to like 120, but that's what they get paid. But they might work maybe 70 or 75 hours out of that and get paid for a hundred or 120, whatever. But, but it's a hard thing. Exactly.
Robbie:Would that, would that people like working away and whatnot. It's like, like
Robert:working away. And even at home, we're doing stuff at home. And
Robbie:what projects have you got on at the minute? What projects?
Robert:So in industrial, we do quite a few industrial projects all over in Den Island. And it's only really become more recent in the last. The three, four years that we've been getting them types of jobs because it was always, always felt like it was always English companies that were coming in and, and getting the work because they were always told that people in Northern Ireland couldn't do it or never had the capabilities or whatever. But it's, it's a lot of nonsense,
Robbie:you know? How have you managed to change that perception?
Robert:Just knocking doors. Just keep knocking doors and just keep saying, listen, where are you? This is what we can do, and this is the lads we've got on the ground. Why? Why pay? Like we said before, we're keeping the money in the country. Why pay somebody else that's traveling away to, to come and work here when you've perfectly, you got perfectly good lad here to do the job and the wages have always been terrible. And they're still not, I don't believe where they should be.
Robbie:I think that's for most industries across the board for a tradesman, I'd say tradesman in general in Northern Ireland are paid a lot less than their counterparts across the rest of the uk.
Robert:Yeah. But, but I think that, I think that's where we, with a massive problem because we're sending every, everyone's going to England or everyone's going down south, like, like down to Dublin or Cork or Limerick or whatever. So it shouldn't have to be like that. Why should you have to go away to. Away, away from your family to earn decent money, you're still doing the same job. The problem is that it's always been that price. That's what you get. It's always been that price, like cha changes in prices.
Robbie:As a business. How do you overcome that so you can pay your staff more?
Robert:I think it's a case of managing your outcomes. We run very lean, like we've, we've a small team compared to some. Some companies wouldn't even probably have as many men as what we've got maybe, but they'd have a lot more people like in the office and things like that. But that's more people to pay. So. If it means that me, and like I said, Carolyn, my wife, obviously she does all the, all the paperwork side of stuff for tax and VA and whatever else and all that sort of type of stuff, but, and incomings and outgoings that, so we, we would sit on the sun nights there. We wouldn't finish till stupid o'clock at night. But it's easier. It's not that it's easier to do that. It's cheaper to do that because obviously it, it's me and Karen's doing it, but if we bring somebody else in, then that's money then that we're spending on somebody else that we can maybe use that money. To give to the, the guys actually doing the stuff on the ground. So we're not scared of hard work. So
Robbie:the other thing is, but it sounds like you don't have very many layers between the guy that that's working down on the shop floor and, and yourself who's
Robert:No, Carolyn probably tell you that I'm too accessible because I do, I I speak to everybody. I, I try and I don't get round all the sites all the time. I don't see everybody all the time.'cause it, you just, it's physically impossible. But if I know someone's got a problem. I would like to think that they would say, I can ring Robbie. He'll listen to me or see if he can help me in any way. Would
Robbie:you think then you have a, an open door policy as opposed to Yeah,
Robert:I, I think you have to. I think that's what sets us apart from everywhere else. You can go somewhere else and maybe get an extra 50 p or a pound an hour more, but at the end of the day, you'll maybe just be treated as just another work. Like if, if you have an issue, does anybody else wanna know? Probably not. We see it all the time. People come and people go, and we've had a few lads that have left. They've always come back or they've always asked to come back,
Robbie:they go somewhere else and they're treated totally different.
Robert:And it, it's nice. It's nice to get that as well.'cause like
Robbie:you need to, as an employee, you need to be getting a certain amount of pay.
Robert:Yeah.
Robbie:But a high amount of pay doesn't always make up for being treated the like I. Crop.
Robert:No, definitely not. I've worked in plenty of places where you've done things and then like you would never got rewarded for it, or you would never have got, remember even like a pat on the back. You know what I mean? It's like
Robbie:I remember working for a golf course and you have to say we were paid from the neck down.
Robert:I know that, but that's so degrading, like that's if you don't want your team to work well or be productive, then that's how you speak to them. Everybody is as important as each other younger lad that we've had now coming in more recent, more recently, that I, I've now, now actually left the business. They've come in and said that, oh, I've not much on for you this week, so we're gonna bring it into the yard. I'm not working in the yard. I'm not thick, I'm not stupid. And you're going, hang on a second. Like, we've guys working in the yard and without them guys in the yard, the whole company doesn't operate. Do you know what I mean? So them lads in the yard, yes, they might get things wrong, going out on wagons and stuff like that, but. If it wasn't for them, then the work wouldn't be getting done on site.
Robbie:Do you know what I mean as well? You're keeping them gainfully employed. Yeah. Keeping them, yeah, keeping them busy. So, but
Robert:no, no job should be beneath you that you don't want to do it. If you're in the company, then everyone's trying to get to the same end goal. So to me that if we all pull together and, and we all go in the same direction. Then we'll create something that's pretty decent. Do you know what I mean? That's
Robbie:a nice company culture to have. Yeah,
Robert:it's alright. Me saying that. Yeah. Like I hope it comes across like our
lad, but a few of the lads might tell
Robert:you differently. I do think that we do things different and there is that thing of like, if it wasn't for them, if it wasn't for all the lads doing what to do, then we, we wouldn't have a company. And a lot of companies think that it's all because of like, uh, the officer going to get all this work and. That's great. It's, it's easy winning the work. It's just down to pricing, down to what you tell'em you can deliver, but you can only do that and deliver what you are delivering with the lads on the ground. So
Robbie:don't ask. As you've grown, how have you maintained your standards? How have you kept the same quality as you've grown, or do you think it's actually improved as you've grown?
Robert:I, I definitely think it's improved as we've grown. The, the biggest one was bringing a safety advisor in. Like I was doing that myself and, and, and you were, you were going out and you're doing the work. What you've seen like as a company owner, and let's be honest, if you're a company owner, sometimes you won't pick up on everything because you might have, you've always got that other thing in the background of like, oh, this has to be done this amount of time or that has to be done. And not that you would've a cut corners, but you would always try and deliver the best possible way. But now it's actually good now because, because we've got the open door sort of policy, if you like. No one's scared to voice and opinion. So our safety advisor come to me and say, I'm not happy with the way you're proposing to do that. I think we should do X, Y, and Z. And you go, okay, explain to me why. And sometimes we'll have a, a bit of back and forward. Sometimes you'll go, no, maybe I'm seeing it from a, a different side than you. And, and Ebert maybe conce on some things where, and then I would co concede in some things. But ultimately the goal is the same. We're still trying to be the safest we can possibly be and do the job. The best we can possibly do it.
Robbie:When was your last accident on tape?
Robert:It
Robbie:was
Robert:October. Could you call it an accident? Probably not. A guy actually kicked the stillage, um, like messing about and he hurt his knee. So then he was off for like three or four weeks
Robbie:was you allowed? Accident you caught, but you can't allow
Robert:for that. Do you know what I mean? It's like there's accidents all the time, whether you get a scratch on your finger or a scratch on your face. I've had plenty myself where I. It's not really been your fault, but you've been involved in one. But people see it as like, oh, it's, it's, it's a massive problem. Like we've gone into clients before, like into pre-start meetings and they've said, what accidents have you had in the last, what issues you've had? And you'll round them off and they'll go, I. Okay, so you're telling us all that? I was like, yeah, we've remedied them. We've put things in place now so that doesn't happen again. Or it can limit the time it happens again. And they go, oh yeah, the last competitor that was in, I've said that they haven't had no accidents. And you're going, that's just a lie. You know, because it, it's physically impossible to go like, yeah. Especially with, especially done once where we've gone throughout the year where there's been no accident at all. So whether it's somebody that's. There's an accident with one of our guys or a third party, whether it be somebody on site or the member of the public. It could be something silly as kicking something or walking into something, but it's still classed as an accident.
Jason:Right. Somebody not watching where they're going and, yeah. Yeah.
Robert:The way the worst one is in town, you'll put all the barriers up that you have and they'll still walk through the barriers to get to where I need to go.
Robbie:You brought in a safety advisor. At what stage were you, what size was the business? When were you brought in the safety advisor?
Robert:We were only go about. I think it was about three years. Three come into four years maybe, and we were looking for one, and then we got a guy, we got a guy, he's actually actually from England as well, Paul Dix. So he come over and was like a trial basis as he come in. He'd only just done his knee boush, so like it was all fresh to him as well. But he was a scaffolder, which was a massive draw for me because it's okay having a safety advisor, but if you don't know how it all goes together, it sometimes can be disjointed and doesn't really work. Having somebody who had the background of scaffolding, plus he's ex-military as well, so it, you knew that he was regimented and everything he does, all methodically done. And so it's, it was peace of mind for me, knowing that he was gonna follow everything through to the end the way he does and things. He's been, he's brought in over the last sort of five, six years has been great.
Robbie:And that must be a real good selling point as well for customers whenever you can say that you've got your own.
Robert:Yeah.'cause I, I think they, they see then that you're taking safety serious.
Robbie:I think a lot of things have moved on the last 10, 20 years.
Robert:Oh. When I first come here.
Robbie:Can you tell us any funny stories about past times? I'll not tell you
Robert:who I was working for, but I, I first come here in 2001. I went to her site and I come back and I said, said to Karen, my wife, I says, oh. I said, I don't know if I can do this. I said, I said, it's really bad. And she said, why? What's up? And I said, with painters and stuff today, I says, and joiners. And it was just like any random guy got a job as a scaffolder, but to me it wasn't scaffolding because it was all system. Whereas we all used tubing, fentanyl in England, and I'd never really used system except for one type, which was couple lock before. So we come in and seen, it was called yellow jelly, we called it back then, which is quick stage, was what you would know as in Northern Ireland as scaffolding. Most of it was quick stage. The place is saturated with it, so it comes over and where away you going? What am I doing here? Like, you're going from getting a job of 13 pound an hour as an advanced scaffold at, in England at the time was decent money. And then you come in, you're getting told you're getting paid seven pound or seven pound, 50 an hour. It was a massive difference. You're in a different country. You don't really know anybody. You have to try and prove yourself again. So then you just keep doing what you're doing and keep moving through. Moving through. But glad you're working. But no harnesses, no PPE, no nothing. You're going like, wow, this is like, this is crazy. Like it was like 10 years behind that. That's what it felt like.
Robbie:Northern Ireland town really is, but 10 years, most things it fills behind. I think it was, but I think.
Robert:I, I don't know whether now it's'cause of like social media and stuff, or whether it's companies from here going to England and working in England and then bringing, like, adopting more processes from over there and then bringing them back home. I don't know. I'm not saying that everything done in mainland, uh, GB is better than anywhere else, but to me it was a lot more robust as to what was going on over there
Robbie:from an insurance stand. Point their insurance is probably a bit keener or a bit sharper. Yeah. Would you think
Robert:I, I think a lot of places still won't quo for Northland even. I, I dunno whether that's'cause obviously historical stuff or what, I don't know. But I think standards now are starting to catch up. I still think we're a little bit behind in certain things that are done, but I definitely do think we're catching up.
Jason:From when you started the business to now, your role's obviously changed. Yeah. And how has that changed and is there anything that you prefer from the old days to now?
Robert:Ooh, good question. The old days was sitting in a front, a little small front room, uh, on my own with, we started off leaving up with an iPad, which is really bad, like especially when you're not used to doing. Like sort of documentation, stuff like that and saving it and this, that and the other. And the, the real funny thing that we as a, a thing we watch now on, on the tv, it's Jess, it's called, it's like a, a series, but there's a clip in it where it's a guy's going for a job and he says like, oh yeah, is it, I can do, yeah, I can do computers. What can you do? I can do Save As, and, and that, that's, that's all I, and it was like. And it was like a run joke in all house. Was lucky enough, Caroline was like in a decent enough job where she'd work computers all the time and stuff like that. So she, Carolyn was massive in helping me get through what I have to learn not to do. But as I did, make a lot of mess. It, it, you just don't, you just can't get your head around the amount of stuff that you have to do and you have to know like. I remember the first time our accountant come in to see us and we were like, what do I have to do? And he'd come in and, and he'd talked for like 20 minutes off an hour. And then he talked for another 20 minutes off an hour. And I was like, wow, I'm not gonna know all this. I'm never gonna be able to do this. We just got thrown into it and I could, I knew I could always, I. From an early age, I've always been able to make money. I've always been able to buy stuff and sell stuff and, and that, that's the way we grew up. We grew up with no money and my fella died when I, when we were young and we left, my mom was left to do everything. So you just knew you had the work ethic.'cause she was always out working, doing whatever she had to do. And that was me and my, me and my brother, uh, my middle brother at, at the time. So you were, you can't do stuff. But when you go from that, like the start of it, and then you're in the front box room and you were getting laughed at for being, oh, you're a scaffold company with no scaffold. And like I.
Like,
Robert:oh, we are. Yeah, but we're just trying to make a way. We're just trying to get a little bit better and a little bit better. And we sort of went from being in the front room, going out to site, coming home in the evening, and then you were like, go through all your safety stuff and then Carolyn was helping you go through all that. And we were sitting up till maybe one, two in the morning some nights when you, and he was killing yourself. Like, but you didn't see it like that'cause it was all new and you were, and you were wanting to get started. But now fast forward, make sure it's to today like I. I would get up in the morning luxury now taking one of the kids to school, drop my kids off and then come back to the house and then work with Carlin for an hour on bits and pieces, and then go to the office. The lads may be laugh and say that, oh, we don't see him till nine or 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock, but I am actually working in between that. But they don't see that like, but, but now it's a lot. It's a lot easier now, like you're not doing everything yourself. So like having all them people in place. Is massive and I, and I think probably maybe still need to add a couple of bits and pieces, like management sort of style and another office person. I think maybe to the team just to help the other lads in the office.'cause they've got a lot more to do now as well. So from then to now would've go back. I don't know if I could go back now. I think I'd be off
Robbie:if you're younger. Somebody's listening to this now.
Robert:Yeah.
Robbie:What would you tell'em? If somebody's really struggling and they're looking to start and there where you were 10, 15 years ago, what would you tell'em? I actually had had this conversation
Robert:last week with a, with a guy, a good mate of mine. He started a business over in Manchester, a scaffolding business, but he's 50 odd, and he said to me, like, he said, like, I feel like I'm drowning. He said, Robbie, I, I just. I don't know what I'm doing. He said, I don't know how to get out of it. And I said, listen, that's normal. I said, that'll keep happening.
Robbie:Glad to hear that because No, but it, but it is because like
Robert:it's, although you've got all these people around you, you're on your own like. The, the thing I would like to go back to like if it was anything, is being on the tools of lads and I, and I still would do that from time to time, not that often. Maybe once, twice a year. Maybe I would do that just to help out or to, if I think the lads need an extra hand, if you're there, you'll jump in and do bits and pieces, but probably get in the way more now to be honest than help them, you know, if anything like, but
Robbie:gonna go slightly off piece. How's your mindset changed from early days to now? Have you like
Robert:As in what? As in, so like
Robbie:as in like how you have drove the business forward. Did you have anything that sort of really shifted you, like a light bulb moment that got you outta the office and more, or was that just as a business, the business grew, you were able to employ?
Robert:I think as it grew, you've got a little bit more money and we would be, I'd say tight, but miserable is probably the word like, but we wouldn't really like to overstretch ourselves too much. Like we've done all what we've done, but like with no help from the bank really. You know what I mean? Everything that's come in. We've reinvested everything and reinvested and reinvested and reinvested. And
Robbie:you haven't taken out really any loans, you just
Robert:No. No. We, we'd only, only the last like really, vans would,
Robbie:would really just be Vans. You would Van Dirt? No, not
Robert:even, not even because like, we saved up and then we, we bought a van and then we and the vans you are buying the start. Like even still now, we'll probably still buying some rubbish bands. Like, but you buy what you can afford and then you, you try and improve on that year, on year, if you can.
Robbie:I'd imagine your game would be quite tough on a, on a van or a life. The scaffold.
Robert:If you buy a pickup truck and a van, we went out and bought pickup truck and three vans one year. We were lucky enough that we had it there to, and we said, we need to do something. We need to get it. Went out and got it. And after six months, if you'd seen them, like honestly, you just have to, you switch off because no matter how many times you say, oh, you need to do this and do that, and do the, you'd be constantly shouting. You'd be constantly in your own head. You just. You'd explode your had to explode'cause of the, the mess that they left in. Mm-hmm.
Jason:I suppose PCP wouldn't work in your trade because of the, the abuse the vans would get.
Robert:No, definitely not. And see, to be honest, like it's a van for the scaffolder is it's your van. It's some sites you go to, they end up being your canteen. Some lads are just go and sit in the, in the, the van rather than sit in the canteen and you, you're driving maybe an hour to work and an hour home in the evenings. So you have two hours there in the van. Then you're maybe another hour, then it breaks in your van. So you're in in quite a bit and. Suppose the last thing the lads wanna really be doing is tidying the vans at the end of the day. But as much as you'd want that to happen, would I done that when I was doing it? Probably not. Do you know what I mean? But it's nice to try and get the lads to try and get the vans washed at least once a week. You know what I mean? To try and keep, to keep it fresh and keep it looking decent. Keep the image right.'cause if you, I think if your yard's tidy, your office is tidy, your vans look tidy. Then that portrays out onto the site then, so it all does fall into a regime then, if you like.
Robbie:In terms of Brandon then, how important has Brandon been since your early days to where you are now?
Robert:Oh, massive. I. The massive, the, the things we'd done to start, I just kept driving home. Like we needed Instagram post. Oh, not Instagram post, sorry. Yeah, yeah. LinkedIn post. We need to put a post on LinkedIn. LinkedIn. LinkedIn. LinkedIn. LinkedIn. And we hammered LinkedIn. Like the guys in the place said Post on LinkedIn. Post. On LinkedIn. And it was coming to a point where people were saying, oh the lads. Thanks to the lads.'cause you were always saying, oh thanks. You don't realize you just go like repetitive all the time. But because people are then talking about it. Good publicity. And then we were lucky enough that we had a couple of boxes that we knew local boxes was needing a bit of help with different bits and pieces. So we done stuff with the local boxes, then got really big and, and done, done. Well explain what the local
Robbie:boxes are.
Robert:So there was uh, Conrad Cummings, Stevie Ward, Steven Donnelley. We done stuff with Steven Donnelley as well. And there was a couple of young kids. That don't of'em had to mentioned the names, like, but probably young, young kids that were going like the Olympics and stuff like that, that we'd done bits and pieces with them, but your logo was everywhere. But sometimes it wasn't even about giving them money, it was just about giving them time and trying to help them source sponsorship. So sometimes we weren't giving nothing, but we were helping them get sponsorship and then not knowing to us, they were going, oh, send us your logo. You're like, okay, so you send the logo next thing, like they'd be in the ring and they'd have your logo on the shorts. And then we were lucky in the sense that we'd done, we'd look, we'd done stuff Conrad with Stevie. Stevie Ward. Um,
Robbie:you must be a big boxing fan then.
Robert:Oh, I, I love the boxing. My wife loves the boxing, whole family love the boxing, so it's good that way. But Carl Frampton done like a documentary on, or they'd done documentary on Carl, I think for something. And Carl Frampton had the, like a, a shirt on and it had our logo on and like lads in England were texting me going, yeah, Carl Frampton's got a share with your logo on it. And then from all that, become quite friendly with sort of car over the last load of years. It, it definitely helped raise a profile. I. And I think the more you can get out and even like kids teams and like some of the lads and work will come to you and say, oh Rob need rugby team needs a sponsor. Would you, would we be able to do it? And you go, yeah, it's fine. And then when you actually add it up over the year, what you've actually for, it's not a whole lots, it's more so now really like,'cause we, because you are able to give back. Like my granddad always done that. Like he, he used to take on the privileged kids away. Every year he's taken me ala man from B and Ed and he'd do a load of fundraising and stuff like that on his own. And, and he, you've see the enjoyment he got out of it and he loved it. And there's only like a small team of them that would've done that and took maybe 20 kids, 25, 30 kids away.
Robbie:That's brilliant.
Robert:And it's always been something then that's been within me that you've always gone do you know what? If you can do something then try and give, like, try and give back so. If we posted about every time that we'd done something like he would never done posting. Do you know what I mean? Like the only one that really knows, like what gets done is probably me and Carlin. Some of the lads would know if it's their charity or it's something that they're doing, but Wonder Lads is actually doing a white collar boxing event. It's supposed at Christmas, and then he got pulled off the bill. I don't think it was anybody ready to fight him or something, or there was nobody in the right way catchment or whatever. But all the ads all got behind him. And then we'll sponsor him for going doing that and then he's doing for Lighthouse, for the suicide awareness.
Robbie:It's a great charity.
Robert:It is. You know what? And especially in construction as well, it's the worst killing in construction. Like and I, I don't think it's enough publicity about what and the stresses that everyone's under.'cause no matter what company you work for, they'll all have these policies in place. But do they really adhere them? I would say not
Robbie:before we get too much into mental health and stuff, you were, you touched on LinkedIn. Has that been your best, is that your best source for business?
Robert:That's the best for promotion for even seeing what other people are doing as well. Like there's companies there that we were for like massive companies in, in the UK that you'd love to be 2% of. Like for what they do, like GKR, Mr. Scaffolding, like big, big companies in the UK and doing some crack and stuff. And you look at it and you go, wow, that them jobs are amazing. You're like center to London, maybe a hundred meters in the air, 200 meters in the air. Some of them you're going, this is like, this is different level.
Robbie:And do you employ someone to do the LinkedIn for you or did you do that yourself? No,
Robert:I've done it myself. I've done it myself. Then we asked the contracts managers post as well. We played off it a bit for the last probably couple of years just because we were just so busy. It was just like, don't really wanna post like post stuff all the time because you're all so busy. But then people then start like not forgetting about you'cause they see you about like, but because you're not posting these, think, oh, there's something going wrong. And then why are they not posting as much and why are they not doing this and why not doing that? But it's just down the time and I think a lot of companies now do have media people working for them. I don't know, we're there to, for a full-time media sort of person, but I think. There's probably an element of it you could maybe say, right? Yeah. Can maybe get somebody in one, two days a week to do something. Maybe. But I would, again, I would like to do like a graduate like. Sort of a kid coming through like from left school or maybe somebody who's not maybe done so well in school, which we spoke before about and different things with councils and stuff. And would you like, that's a whole other rant. Yep.
Robbie:That's a whole
Robert:other ramp.
Robbie:We're gonna talk. We're gonna talk about, we're gonna talk about that soon as you've scaled your business up to 5 million pound plus. What's the one thing you'd say that is really just. Turbocharged it in the last five to 10 years. Is there, I
Robert:think, uh, I think that's the, probably the, one of the easiest questions that, that I've, that I've had today. It has to be le using Leia LE's a, a system made in Germany. I. So robust, the testing regime is phenomenal. What's Layer?
Robbie:Talk us through what that is.
Robert:So it's basically a system scaffold, as you would see, quick stage and cup lock and various other types around the place. Layer is, to me, in, in my opinion, is the, the strongest, safest, fastest, the best material out there. The testing regime of it is phenomenal. Got massive plants in Germany.
Robbie:Does that just mean you can put it up really quick, really safe?
Robert:You can put it up quick. It's safe. There's a lot less limitations with it. You see all your grandstands and stuff with all your seating, seating arrangements on stages for concerts, tv, cameras, stations, construction, you know, you can use it for absolutely everything and, and everything. So interchangeable, yes, there's a lot of parts to it, but if you have all the right parts, the jobs look amazing. But like. I still get excited now going and looking at a job and going, right. Wow. That looks. The balls just going, everything's in. That it, it is the way it should be. All straight lines, everything's done. And, and the lads get a sense of pride of it as well. The, the lads now working with Layer don't wanna go and work with anything else because of the way it is. And we used it on one job. There's a job in River House in the town. I don't really know it do you?
Robbie:No.
Robert:River house. It's um, I think it's Bridge Street. It's on.
Robbie:You've done some pretty big Tex Wanna give us Yeah, give us a. We've done gives any rundown of some of the stuff you've done.'cause I know you've done some really interesting buildings around Blatt and whatnot. Iconic buildings,
Robert:like we've done stuff at the arpa, done stuff at the Opera House, Fitz William Hotel. There's a place next to Robinson's, great Victoria Street it was called, but it was the building next door to Robinson's. Got all the brick wire taken down and redone
Robbie:and was it the other side? Just,
Robert:it was like between the Crown and Robinson went in, up, up just the middle of that. I think it was the old CSA building, I think. We've done stuff in the city hall, all Royal Avenue, we've all stuff in Royal Avenue, Victoria Square. Done stuff in the, in the SSE.
Robbie:And about what, bit further? A failed
Robert:further field. Yeah. We've done stuff in British embassies across Europe from Paris.
Robbie:It's been a nice contract to get.
Robert:Yeah, well it was, yeah, it was interesting'cause you go over and you don't know what to expect and then you get, I always laugh'cause you go right like this lad from back and out is just. Turned up with a suitcase outside the embassy and every, everyone's standing with guns and they're shouting at you, like, get over the other side of the road. And you're like, no, we suppose you're going in there. And it's like, and then you show your ID and you go in and you and do what you need to do. And it's like, but it's like you go in and you get the history of the place. Like it's, I was never want history, but I dunno whether it's moving here. And then you hear so many different things and stuff and you just do take an interest in it and like, but it's, it's definitely good to get. To get around, done stuff in Brussels as well. Uh, stuff in Brussels. We've got stuff coming up in Germany, Denmark, there's bits and pieces all over.
Jason:Would you send your own guys out to those? Yeah. Yeah. Or is it always, always send you your own lads?
Robert:Always send your own lads. Yeah, because it, I suppose you get a lot of hat going up saying thing me everyone wants to go to. It helps when you're giving them a credit card and you say, just get your food and get your drink and whatever you need off that thing. So it, it definitely does help and not spend their own money.
Jason:How do you price yourself competitive without undercutting the value of your business?
Robert:That, that's a hard one.'cause you're always competing with people and people will always do the the job cheaper than you'll do it. You just have to, it's trying to stick to that.
Robbie:I'd imagine what
Robert:you can add value to what you are doing. Sometimes it, it's really hard when you go, we've priced it for this and we've allowed for this, that we, you've allowed for everything. And then somebody else has maybe priced against you, but they've only allowed for maybe 70% of what you've allowed for, but it doesn't come across in the same way to the QS who's looking at it. We had a job recently that we priced a job and you said, oh, you're a hundred grand year, and everybody else like, no, we couldn't be. And then. When you actually spoke and the job was given out and then we, we spoke about afterwards, you're like, ah, we worked it out. So the way we'd sent our document in, we put one element where we'd said, this is gonna be the cost if it's fully erected all of the time. I. But it'll be charged out Prorata. They missed that section of thing to say that it'll be charged prorata for the job, which then meant that we didn't get the job, which was a bit of a kick in the teeth.'cause you're going, nah, there's no way that we were that expensive. But you, you always get inflated figures thrown back at you to say, oh you, you're more expensive than this and more expensive that, and you, and sometimes you can. Maneuver things around a little bit to try and, but there's never a hundred grand on a job. Do you know what I mean? It's, it's like, that's a
Robbie:lot,
Robert:you know, it's just not possible.
Robbie:Do you think in your game every job is, it'll always go for the cheapest code? Do think? No,
Robert:I think probably five, six years ago, yes. A hundred percent. I think now with safety records and stuff and, and sort of accreditations like we're we, we become the first members of the NASC, like we were the first members of the Scaffold Association originally.'cause we couldn't get into the NASC to start off to meet the criteria. But then as the time went on, we then were able to get into the NASC, which is National Access Scaffolding Confederation. It basically writes all the rules and regulations for scaffolding. So we're now in that, our first year was two. We got into it in 2023 and in our first year we put a project in for small project of the year for the Royal. Hospital in Belfast, A, a job ran the Helleck, it was shortlisted for small project of the year, which is massive for us. Out of all them companies that are in like a, a, like I, I see us as a small company from Northern Ireland has managed to break into that to say, you know what, we're the here, like we're running in, but we're flying a flag from Northern Ireland here. So it, it's nice to get a better recognition that way.
Jason:You saying about. The contracts, could you use the system that you use, the scaffolding system you use, can you use that as a selling point? Yeah. To other businesses. We, and we, and we
Robert:have done, because there's a, some jobs that you go to and you'll see a different system on one building, and then you'll see our system on the the next building and. All the time. I would say a hundred percent of the time, probably 99% of the time, people will go, yeah, we want to use that instead of using that because of the way it looks, because it images everything now, isn't it? You know what I mean? Like there's, there's so many photographs being taken all over the world and there's so many things happening everywhere, video clips and what have you. So if you have a, a job up. It looks terrible. You will get someone take, look at the state of this or, and it'll, it's bad publicity straightaway. Do you know what I mean? Whereas if you're putting nice, tidy jobs up and people do see it, people do recognize it. And then, and we'll post it. Like we've, we've done one for great Victoria Street, put a job up, took photographs of it for layer. And that ended up in like Columbia and Pardon places like that. They actually shared the photograph like Columbia, South Africa, New Zealand, all share an image of a company from Northern Ireland. And, and it's mind blowing like some of the, the sort of innovative, innovative things that they bring out that layer have brought out. We've been the first to use them in Northern Ireland and we're such a small sort of fish in a big pond if you like, and which is which. Nice too there, there's nobody in Northern Ireland uses it. They all use copies. But it's not the same as le. They, they'll tell you it's the same as le but it's not
Robbie:price. Imagine the price is a lot different as well.
Robert:It's probably a, a fifth of the price maybe of what we're paying, but we, we still try and keep the rates competitive because we've bought like steadily over a certain amount of time. We were the first to make the move out of everybody to be a scaffold company, go from no scaffold to like the best system on the market. To me, it is massive. That's what we wanted to do. We wanted to be the best one, the best material and stuff like that. Everybody else that comes to work with you, they'll work with other systems. The same sort of style is what we've got, but they'll all tell you it's not the same as what Layer is. Layer layer is phenomenal. Just, just, well, yeah. Ah, it's just, it's just everything about it is just phenomenal.
Robbie:Having a lot of staff, I'd imagine that's your most challenging thing in the business. What are you currently trying to do about that?
Robert:Trying to keep lads that you've got and trying to, trying to keep improving what they're doing. Like upskilling, if you like, like always putting'em on training courses and stuff like that. You can't train everybody all the time, so you have to do it in stages. Some people get annoyed because they haven't been on one and, and someone else got in before them and they think they should get a fair. So it's managing the expectations there. But for new people coming in. Is, it's tough. It's really hard because let's be honest, like it's not a job that everyone wants to go into scaffolding. Is it really? It's hard physical. Yeah.
Robbie:You have to be a certain type of person who wants to, yeah.
Robert:You have to have a mentality that you, you don't mind working outside. You don't mind being cold. You don't mind heavy lifting. You'd enjoy that type of stuff. But we, we are finding it increasingly difficult because every kid that would come to and say, you're doing an apprenticeship scheme, we go, no, we don't have one. They said we don't have one for scaffold in Northern Ireland, but they've got them in England. Yeah, but they, they don't have one in Northern Ireland for them. We were at CITB last week and they were going on about apprenticeship week coming up and levy training and all the rest of it. Barry Nielsen from CITB had A-C-I-T-B in Northern Ireland gave me a bit of assurance that there will be a change, um, that there will be courses offered. There was a gray Graham Wilkinson, or Graham Wilkinson, I think it was somewhere in the council. I can't remember what position he held, but he was in the council and he says, oh no, you can get an apprenticeship scheme. We'll not stop any apprenticeship schemes. I was like, there's not one for scaffolding. And he went, no, there is. And I was like, there's not. I said, because most of the lads or girls that wanna commit scaffolding, you have to have seen above. Kids who are getting seen above, don't wanna nine outta 10, don't want to be doing a manual job. They wanna be behind a desk somewhere doing that type of work. In this politically correct world that we're live in, that everyone is like, oh, you can't call him that. You can't call her that. You can't. We have to be, include everybody, but massively excluding kids who are getting below a C like so. DA, f. If you don't complete energy, CSEs. They're not getting a job. So like how are we gonna fix the problem of getting these kids into work that sense? Don't wanna work anyway.
Robbie:And then especially they hit their twenties and all of a sudden they're into their minimum wage. Yeah. And the minimum wage these days is quite high. Especially if you're un trained and then you really become unemployable.
Robert:Yeah.
Robbie:It's talking to a lad the day who's, who's wanting to do ton for cars.
Robert:Yeah.
Robbie:And he's like, I lost my job as a vendor and he can't get an apprenticeship anywhere else'cause he is 21. The minimum wage is that much, much higher now.
Robert:Yeah.
Robbie:And nobody can take him on. Nobody wants to take him on'cause he's not trained. But that lad really wants to work. But what does he do? He's between a rock and a hard place and employers are between a rock and a hard place as well.
Robert:But then that sort of brings in like the mental health sort of side of it. You know, you know what, these lads wanna work but they physically can't find anything. And it's not that, it's not that employers don't want to employ them, it's just the, the problems is that, as you say, the minimum wage is so high. And you have to get a return on what they're doing. We've got LA that will come into the yard and you go, okay, come in at 16. I wanna work, but no one will take me on. You go, come into the yard paint fittings, and we all pay them to come in and paint fittings and see. To be honest, it probably costs us money to do that. That's where I started a fell, gave me a chance at home and says, right, come in and pay fittings. I went and paint fittings and tube that got me on the road to, to doing what I'm doing now. I'd have skill with nothing, but then all, there's all these other lads that work for us. I, I wouldn't even know what the ratio is, but there's, I would say if you said it's probably 70, 30, 70% of that maybe left with nothing.
Robbie:Gonna I up and say that I left school with new T six. They don't have any quality do now, but. Left school didn't have any qualifications. So yeah, I'd have been on, on You. Enjoy your
Robert:job, don't you? And if you, I think if you'd enjoy, if you've come into something, you enjoy it, you'll excel in it. That doesn't mean that if you don't have a bit of paper, you can't do that job. Some of the lads we have can't read and write. It took one of, one of the lads that we've got, it took'em, something like 16 goes to pass as touchscreen test. And he was actually told by a different company that he was thick and he was stupid.
Robbie:But he's probably a really good grafter.
Robert:The kid now is, is going for as As level two as part two and scaffolding. Alls you gotta do is be assessed and then we'll put'em onto his advanced. Alls you needed was a bit of help, bring him in, spend a bit of time with him. You're not think, you're not stupid, but the first thing that comes in is, oh, there's a paper run a mile. And with CITB we up last week, Dave said the same thing. They said they'll get kids on the course, come in and do a course, they'll get to the final day and they say, oh, there's written an exam at the end of it. And they'll just leave and they'll do it.'cause the scared of getting it wrong or not being able to read or write, it's so bad. It's like I haven't been banging on about it for years now and, and we haven't really gone anywhere. But
Robbie:I know you were talking about trying to get a training, some sort of training program in place. Is that something, love a training, is that something you can talk about?
Robert:Yeah. That we've made No, no. Sort of secret of it. Especially with the, the powers of being like CATB and the council and stuff. The council, new naby and answering. But council are. I've been brilliant, to be honest. They've, we've told them what we think should happen, like just entice people into the industry. Like there's 60, 70,000 carded scaffolds in the UK and you're probably gonna get maybe 30% of them. It's gonna probably retire in the next three to five years. There's a bit of a scaffold. There's gonna be a massive void there where the scaffold used to be probably one of the worst paid. It's probably on the best paid now'cause
Robbie:order scaffold they expected on without doing overtime or without doing overtime and without doing overtime, you could probably
Robert:comfortably get. 30, 40 grand a year now, I would say. But again, if you're willing to, the overtime, some guys could come up with a hell of a lot more than that.
Robbie:That's a good word. Especially for somebody that maybe doesn't, isn't highly skilled in all things. That's like we, when we have,
Robert:when we have shutdowns on there, there'd be some guys there coming home with maybe 15, 7, 16, 1700 pound a week. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's not to be laughed at. It's a lot of money goodly. That's not, that's not
if you able body get fit, you're looking to change your career.
Jason:Unfortunately, I'm broken.
Robert:No, but I think'cause we've been moving the, the sort of right sort of people now with like the councils and the CITB and stuff and they, they've now finally realized there's a problem. Whereas the problem has been there for the past five, eight years, maybe more. We've been banging on about this for probably at least five years now with, with different industries. We actually went to Westminster with the NASC just to say about how poor it was and not being supported and stuff like that. I think ours is one of the, the safest trade you can be in. And I know it's risky working at height, but if you do it correctly, it's not, then it's not. You've always got an element, but complacency, unless you
Robbie:catch confluence to it.
Robert:Yeah, but no, but I, I think my ideal goal is to give a bit back and, and to try and these kids that are leaving school, see, to be honest, see the kids that leave school that are probably the most challenging and unbe behaved, if you like, are the best ones for us to get. And that sounds strange. You're thinking, why do you wanna take a problem on. But you're actually not taking a problem on. They're probably, they're misbehaved and awkward and hard to work with because they're probably frustrated in the work that they're doing. And we find that lads come in, I know whenever And they, they just, you just take off. Honestly, they do.
Robbie:I know whenever I was at school, so I had no interest in being there.'cause I find it really frustrating. I dyslexic with numbers. Yeah. And at the time I didn't know, I didn't even, didn't know that was a thing and I just really struggled in school. And then whenever I got into the workplace, I, like you say, you, you totally find yourself. Yeah. There's, you don't have that hassle of writing things down and all of a sudden lifes a lot is, makes a lot easier
Robert:because let's be honest, how much stuff did you take from school that you've actually took onto a building site? Alright. Alright. Maths and English and stuff like that. Talking and writing down and, and doing numbers and whatever. That's fair enough, but. Within our industries, a lot of it is repetitiveness. So you can teach someone we we a lad in the yard and I kept him for I think three months and I was like, oh, I don't think this is gonna work. Lad's got a D, HD, I think it is, he's DHD. And I was like, if I can get 1% out of him, if I can just see one thing that he's doing different and know he can be taught. That took nine months to get to that. Right. And it was like a light bulb moment. And for them nine months I was paying him, I was going, what am I doing? I'm just throwing money away. And I thought, just give it another week. Give it another week. Give it another week. It might change. All of a sudden something happened and he, he come up with an idea for something and I was like, that's a great idea. And see from then the kid now can run the yard like. Like he's from 16, he's now just turned 19. I think he's just turned 19 and he's going like anywhere else. If he was working anywhere else, he probably would've been let go after about a month to two months.
Robbie:Very rewarding. Not, I would say
Robert:it is because you know what? It just proves that if you stick by people and you can try and help or try and just keep digging it. I know it's costing you money, but. It will come good in the end. You, you just have to follow it through. Everyone doesn't know everything goal at the time.
Robbie:Is there anything else you'd like to touch on with staff and or, yeah,
Robert:so the, the 12, uh, I said to the counselor, I'd love to do a, a 12 week program for kids coming outta school into scaffolding, like in a controlled environment where you bring them into like our yard or a, a training sort of center if you like, and say, this is how scaffolding works. And set something up where. They're able to come in, see how it's, see what happens, how the, the gear gets loaded, how you're doing material list, how you do this down the other, there's only gonna be so much you can do in 12 weeks, but it'll just give them a flavor of like how interesting it can be. You know, take them out to sites, let show them the guys working, show them what to do, show them some of the jobs, like interesting jobs. You can be involved in this. Any scaffold that I know. As, as sad as what I am, when you go away, you go, oh, look, that's like we go away in holiday and your photographs are scaffold. And, and then like Carolyn's going, like, what are you doing? And then the kids are going, that's not too safe, dad does it. No,
no.
Robert:Like, so everyone picks up on it and it's within the household, like, you know what I mean? So you, you just consumed by it and. To me it's because we enjoy it. We, we liked, we, we loved, I love my job. I've always loved my job. But
Robbie:do you think the kids will follow you into the job? Do you think your kids will, or do you think they'll go off and do something different?
Robert:Honestly, I don't think so. I think they're a lot smarter than I was. Not saying that, that it's a bad thing. Like we've got people think scaffolding's, just scaffolding, like scaffold's, not just scaffolding. You can come in, you can work in the yard, you can like pick materials and send gear out. You don't have to go work at height to do that. You can drive a forklift in the yard. You can load lorries, you can drive a lorry. You can go upstairs with the sort of the brains of the operation is like the Qs who like prices all the jobs and sends all your quotations and you're invoicing it all out. You can go into Hilton Safety, you can go into scaffold design where again, there's not rarely a scaffold designer in Northern Ireland until two years ago.
Robbie:And do you have that? Yes,
Robert:that's, we set up, we set up with a, tell
Robbie:us a little bit that.
Robert:Set up with Shane Higgins. We put him through his courses, sent him back to college again. We done that. It's, it took us three years to get him through college to do that. So I was commit information. Did you, did
Robbie:you have any contract in place with him that is going to
Robert:A gentleman's agreement? A gentleman's
Robbie:agreement? Yep.
Robert:To be honest. He's a man of his word. And we talking at that, we didn't do no formalized contracting, nothing. But he's come on and he's still learning now, like that's probably five years in now. And we've actually just enrolled him on another course now with, uh, Ben Mont, who's one of the industry's best, like, for design, scaffold design, like, and he's now took him under his wing and now mentoring him and teaching'em as well. So would
Robbie:that be for like big projects? Talk us through what you would need that for.
Robert:No, it, it can be something as simple as a, as a small hop up. People think scaffold design is just for massive projects, but it's not, it, it can be for anything. It just, it just depends what your, what your job is and if it falls within that remit. So there's, there's loads of, we, obviously loads of rules and regulations that if, if you put, if you have a scaffold, that height and it's to, to take pedestrians or people. It's to be designed, so it could be like a two step scaffold over a, over a trench or something, but you, you have to get it designed, make sure it takes the load of people going over it and all the rest of it. Make sure it's signed off, probably built correctly and all the rest. Then you can have your, your monster projects like a loft lines down the new building down next to Titanic. That's on the news quite a bit at the minute, then for blocking the bureau. But, but
Robbie:is that the one that, is that the one that they're building? The No parking. Yeah, there's, there's apartment block going up and there's no parking. Is that there? Yeah, there's no parking.
Robert:Yeah. But you know what, like, I think we need to move at the times, like every city in the world is probably the same, do you know what I mean? And Belfast no different. Like to me there's a lot more of a buzz around Belfast now than what there's ever been, especially some of the areas where they've built dollar student accommodation up and stuff like that. Yeah. So it's
Robbie:really the lf, it's, it's good for a moment.
Robert:It's changed massively in all the time I've been here like since 2001 to now. Like it's a massive difference. I'm sure you've seen, yeah, a lot more of a change, but I think it's for the better. I do you and there's a lot more different sort of types of people here. Now
Robbie:tell me this here, just to finish off the podcast. You touched earlier in mental health.
Robert:Yeah.
Robbie:And mental health, obviously it's a massive subject.
Robert:Yeah.
Robbie:Can you talk about how. It's impacted your business and is there any put in place to help?
Robert:Yeah, we would do the usual, like toolbox talks and stuff like that, but I think it's more a case of we've access to a, a counselor if the guys need it. And you'd be surprised how many, how many have used it. We would give so many sessions for free and it, it definitely helps. We've had some guys that have gone and then they've maybe taken some of their own family too. The same counselor for different reasons. If you're helping just that one or 2%, sometimes that's all it needs. It's all it needs to be, but
Robbie:as well,'cause that will travel through.
Robert:Oh, definitely. I'll travel
Robbie:through there. I think
Robert:the biggest thing is just to, to listen to people because everyone's got their own stresses and worries. Like I come in sometimes and I would sort of be talking to one the lads and before you know it, you're talking about stuff that you're not happy with and this, that, and the other. But you, you're offloading, you're dumping, you know what I mean? Like. Carolyn, like my wife is like my counselor in the house. I go in the house and she's sick sometimes.
Robbie:Sometimes deals my counselor. She'll be the only way around, but, but
Robert:it's hard as well.'cause like for yourself, you're a business owner. You're going in, you listen to everyone's problems and you can only fix so many of them. You can try and you can do all you can, but you can't fix everything. I think that's the hardest part. Just get. Then once you get out of that sort of cycle and you fix all their issues, then I find that I would go in there and then dump everything on. On Carlin. It's always like the wrong time because you're going in when you should be probably switching off and relaxing. I'm talking to her like out with the dogs, like it could be seven o'clock at night and I'm dumping all this stuff on Carlin. But then you're not thinking about like the consequences that has on like even on on like Carla, where she's. She'll start then thinking about it, and then it's a whole process then that you to both use her back and forward. And then I need to give a, a big thanks to her for, for everything that she puts up with.'cause it without her, like we wouldn't, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be possible. I, every
Robbie:good man's a good woman. Definitely.
Robert:Honestly, I, and people do say that, and I, I think sometimes it may be sick, as have say, but no, like. Even to sport, the kids as well. The, the kids are phenomenal too. Like you understand that you have to take phone calls at nighttime and weekends and sometimes you wearing holiday, you're taking calls or, or you're answering emails. I
Robbie:lost the podcast for a bit. Eyes away. Is that right? Eyes away. The wife wasn't too impressed, but yeah, eyes away, lying on a beach and, and the podcast was going live on this channel on YouTube, Spotify. Don't forget if you're watching the smash Link button. But yeah, I went live on YouTube. Spotify Linked or LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook. Every word once. Yeah. I was a bit mad, so I was landing a beach looking on my phone. But there's not too many corners can say that. No, definitely not. Definitely not that they can work on a beach, so, yeah.
Robert:But it is, it is a, it is a hassle. It, it does. It comes with its own stress. I.
Robbie:What do you do for, how do you un unwind?
Robert:Go to match, go and watch Liverpool and at the minute that it's, it is pretty handy to unwind. You go watch Liverpool'cause they're winning quite a bit. The minute, but just getting away, just going to match or going on like little small trips or little small holidays or days out with the family. It, it's massive and like being able to switch off. Best thing about the matches, everyone's the same. No one cares what you do. No one cares who you are. You're all there for the same reason. And that's what I enjoy the most. Best thing out of everything.
Robbie:Listen, thank you very much for coming very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.