From Woodworking Hobby to Profitable Business

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Chapters

• 0:00 From Woodworking Hobby to Profitable Business
• 0:17 Discovering a Passion for Woodworking
• 1:17 Transitioning from IT to Woodworking
• 3:28 Mental Health Challenges and Coping
• 5:19 Starting a Woodworking Business
• 6:58 Balancing Passion and Business
• 22:24 Setting Clear Boundaries in Business
• 23:19 Involving Customers in the Design Process
• 23:40 The Power of Saying No
• 24:46 Marketing and Advertising Strategies
• 26:07 Etsy and Online Sales
• 27:44 Balancing Craftsmanship and Business
• 34:08 Scaling Up with Technology
• 34:51 High-Profile Projects and Collaborations
• 37:38 Offering Courses and Workshops
• 40:52 Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
• 43:21 Mindset and Overcoming Challenges
• 45:06 Conclusion and Contact Information

Transcript

Justin: Pretty early on in my career, I started getting these things, which I later found out were like panic attacks and I was just so stressed. I felt sick. It was awful like, and I wasn't seeing my family. You have two lives, one life, and then another life.

When you work out, you've only one life. I just had this like complete moment of I was not made to do this. I cannot do this. This is not for me. 

My grande was a real old skill joiner, so since I was three or four, I was always in his workshop. I always had a passion for making and stuff I a guitar when I was really young.

That was always there and I started doing that more as a hobby. I was losing money into it. I was telling my wife, this is investment, all these tools, and it doesn't go down well, but it afforded me the ability to do that. 

Robbie: imagine your wife's face whenever you says yes to spend this much.

Would you ever say no to a project, even if it's gonna be a big payday for yourself? 

Justin: I definitely would, and I have. When you say no, I feels bad at the time and you're sitting thinking going, oh, that is a lot of money. But you forget you're gonna have a batch, 200, 300, 400 things out, which is crazy. And it is.

It's like trying to be true to yourself and go, no, you know what? I said this for a reason. I wasn't overpricing it just for the sake of it. 

Robbie: Nos often one of the [00:01:00] most important words that can say, as a self-employed person, would you believe? 

I'm welcome to the risk of the Revenue podcast.

Today's podcast is slightly different from other ones we've done as my guest today isn't typically a man with a van and he works from home. However, he has a really interesting story to share. 

So walking away from a high stress corporate job to build a Facebook with working business isn't your typical career path.

But for Mark Justin here, it was the right one. In this episode, we're going to unpack how turn passion into profit. Without losing sight of what matters most. We'll talk about setting prices with confidence, attracting the right clients, managing your mental health as a business owner, and staying true to your craft.

If you're looking for real actionable strategies, the refine your business. This one's packed with takeaways that you can use today. Jobber is my go-to software. It does all my scheduling, my invoicing, my quoting.

Best of all, it gets me paid faster. [00:02:00] However, if you're a busy business owner and you're really struggling with things in your business and you don't have time for anything, then you need to have a look at Jobber. 

Now, if you want to check it out, there's a link down in the video description. The link is www dot premier loans link slash jobber. There's a 14 day free trial and there's an exclusive discount, so make sure to check that out. Now. Mark, would you like to introduce yourself? 

Justin: My name's Mark Justin and I run the company Justin Wood. I make custom furniture. I do like big branded stuff for companies. I run classes teaching people how to do beginner and then more intermediate woodworking, wood turning. And I also would do some sort of like restorations and stuff sometimes on antiques, older furniture.

Robbie: So let's scroll back to how you started. What happened whenever you left school? 

Justin: Yeah, that's right. I was gonna be a rock star when I was growing up, so I was always played in bands and stuff, so I didn't think I'd ever have to worry about actually getting a job, but I just fell down the path, get a good job going into it.

I eventually worked up and I was an IT [00:03:00] consultant. I did computer forensics and I was an ethical hacker. 

Robbie: What exactly is an ethical hacker? 

Justin: Yeah an ethical hacker is supposed to be one of the good guys that comes into your computer system.

It just runs penetration tests, security tests, and finds all the vulnerabilities and your network are on your systems or even how people are and then comes back to you and says, you need to sort these out or patch these things, and all that sort of stuff. 

Robbie: did you go from that to where you are now?

And I know you had a bit of trouble with mental health. Would you like to give the viewers a bit of background? How that came about? 

Justin: Pretty early on in my career in it, I just started getting, I didn't know what was wrong with me. I started getting these things, which I later found out were like panic attacks, and I was just so stressed out.

I was shaken, I was gonna faint. I felt sick. Like I actually felt like I was dying. And I eventually got diagnosed with a panic disorder. And in the worst parts of that, I couldn't even leave the house. I couldn't get in the car, I couldn't go to the shopping center. I was just in a really bad place.

I think it was just the stress. I'm a perfectionist. I wanna fix everything I want, so there's, 10 calls and to fix things and [00:04:00] somebody else is complaining about this next thing and this service down. And I take it all on board. I was up all night worried, thinking about how to troubleshoot these things, what I was gonna do.

All of that kind added up. I was, ended up flying a bike, doing training courses or working things and I wasn't seeing my family. I don't know if you've heard about the expression. You have two lives, one life and then another life. When you work out, you've only one life. I was sitting in the office one day and I think I'd worked out.

I did not work a another 35 years of, which would've been longer than I had been living for and I just had this like complete moment of I, like I was not made to do this. I cannot do this. This is not for me. 

Eventually I got a really good it job fixing supercomputers. It just went round all the north of Ireland, but I only had to do that whenever I was.

When something was wrong, whenever everything hit the fan and then it really needed to work any time of the day or night, whatever day it was. 

Robbie: there a lot of space in between where you maybe weren't working or, 

Justin: so there was loads of time. I maybe only did like maybe one or two calls a week.

Sometimes I didn't even do that and I got paid loads of money to be on call and my boss was even [00:05:00] okay with me being in the workshop. So I started doing more and more a hobby and then worked out. It didn't all come from nothing. I did my grande, it was like a real old school joiner.

So since I was three or four, I was always in his workshop. I always had a passion for making stuff, always took things apart. I was always like fiddling, making, like I made a guitar when I was really young. Just that was always there. And I started doing that more as a hobby. And then I seeing like this therapy and it almost, and I was like, hold on.

This is what I was made to do. During that job when I got money that this was a real business and I was like pretending I was running a business and I was investing all losing money into it. I was telling my wife, this is investment, all these tools, and it doesn't go down well, it afforded me the ability to do that.

I can imagine your 

Robbie: wife's face whenever he says yes to spend this. I started growing the garage 

Justin: I was making bigger pieces and there just wasn't enough room. And in the meantime, like the world of hardware and servers had changed so much that the lifespan of the machines was getting longer with less service.

Or people would just throw out things instead of replacing them. I ended up getting made redundant. [00:06:00] I wasn't allowed to work in it for six months. 

Robbie: it can be one of the best things for you, but you maybe don't appreciate it at a time. 

Justin: That's right. Ideally I would've loved to have had the business.

But sometimes you can't choose this in life. And it was the kind of push that I needed. And if it wasn't for that, I maybe would never have had that.

Could get up and go. I would never have left a real, really well, paid job to do that, but I was forced into it, and that was in 2018. 

Robbie: I was forced into working for myself as well. I fully appreciate that. I wasn't on a high paid job, but I don't think I'd ever made the switch myself. But then whenever you get made a redundance, like sometimes it could be like lifting the, I'm sure you probably feel the same.

Definitely somebody just lifts a massive weight off you. 

Justin: Yeah. I was fortunate with that job that I managed my own time and stuff, but I had experienced crippling like stress of management, wanting to do things and so managing my own time, doing something that I loved, working for things that I wanted to do was just such an amazing blessing.

That was great. 

Robbie: Really good. 

Looking back at [00:07:00] the transition, what advice would you give someone who feels stuck in their job? 

Justin: Okay. I think it's very. I have two answers to this. When I first left, I said, everybody should quit their job. See, if you don't love it and you're not passionate about it, leave the next day.

Life's too short. It's too long, and it's too short to be miserable, if there's serious health concerns, I had lots of money and supposedly successful titles and career path, and it meant nothing. my life was not worth living in that state.

So at the start, I would've said for sure leave. But now knowing what it's like running a business, and it depends on your personality or a business acumen. It's so difficult 

Robbie: that a lot of small business owners I talk to, they love what they do, but They're not business. 

Justin: That's me. But now I have this thing that if you can work a job, and you might not be really passionate about it and love it, but if it affords you the lifestyle that you want. With not a lot of stress. That's really successful in my, if you can be happy ish, I'm not saying you're gonna love going to work, but if it affords [00:08:00] you that lifestyle, that's okay.

And then you can have those hobbies or those things in the background and then really appreciate them without the, that pressure of them having to perform in a business way 

Robbie: a hundred percent. That a lot of times I feel really lucky to do what I do. Over the last 10 years, I've morphed the business in all different directions.

But it gives me a lot of freedom to do exactly whatever I want to do. And there's lots of times I say, Jason, that doesn't feel like work. And that's really, yeah. That's it. It's just really fortunate to be in that position. And a lot of people would just carry on grinding that out for years.

And being a hundred percent miserable and then all the stresses and strains that came to that. Was it after you left the corporate world and you made redundant this whenever your health, your mental health started to improve? 

Justin: I'm really conscious. I've done this nearly 18 years, the whole mental health thing, and I'm so conscious sometimes of saying it's done because I went through, two good years, three bad years.

One, one, and it just went on and off. at the minute, I have had a really good run, six, seven years, maybe more, but. [00:09:00] It's just something you just need to be managed and just be conscious of the whole time. And I think even that thing, and this is why I like speaking about it, because 18 years ago in the corporate world, it was a man up.

There is nothing wrong to you. It's all in your head, would've been a totally 

Robbie: different thing than 

Justin: what it's now. It was, and and there was no support and there's no talk and there's no coping things. So I would like to bring that out just to. Normalized it to a certain extent, but to show that you can get through it as well, 

Robbie: so let's talk about now. 

Justin: My biggest challenge is running a business. I am so passionate about what I do. I love making stuff. Anybody knows me would know that if I didn't need to make any money, I would still be on my workshop every day making beautiful stuff for nothing.

And sometimes they still do make stuff for nothing, but, the business part of it and the weight that you should have on like monetizing things and being aware of profit or time wasting or. Pricing things or bad work. There's such a thing as bad work. You could lose money by getting money and it's just that mindset and I find that [00:10:00] very difficult. I just want to make the craft. So it's, that is definitely for me, the hardest thing. 

Robbie: I can a hundred percent identify, but that's, so the videos are much in the same thing.

Really enjoy making the videos, really love researching the stuff that we're gonna talk about. They can take up that two or three days to make, but they might not make an awful lot of money. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Robbie: So it can be really challenging. I didn't get into doing what I do to make money and I still don't

But if you're good at something. Then you'll end up getting paid for it. 

Justin: Exactly. Yeah. You just hope that the work speaks for itself. 

Robbie: But don't you, there's different times you'll end up making I make content. 

That's just unfortunately that seems to be the way it is, really. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Robbie: So on the Tar in Beer, mark. 

H

ow do you balance towards them for your time and materials, but balance out with your cri real value for bespoke pieces? 

Justin: Yeah, it's a real minefield.

There's so many, I feel like I've tried nearly all of the formulas and I've 

even got an 

Justin: Excel spreadsheet that I can put in how many minutes I think. [00:11:00] And I think when you're doing this, you plan it. You think, oh, that'll only take me half an hour.

I'll only do that for an hour. And then when you look at it, you would realize. Like you were, took you all day instead of one hour. So I think the thing is you need to try and do as much as you can always factor in the fact that you should have some sort of profit on this.

Otherwise you could be working anywhere. And then the biggest thing for me is that you just learn so much for that job. And from that you base the next one. That's why I always joke that you're my work now, is it the cheapest it's ever gonna be? Because if you come to me for this one-off piece, I'm going to sit and go I think it'll take that.

I'm gonna design this factor in all this, whatever. There's moving parts and all have to prototype stuff, all of that. And you don't get paid for any of that. And then you learn for the next one to add on X amount just to make it worthwhile. So that's probably not a good way, but it's the real world way and at least you learn from your mistakes and move on from there.

Robbie: Would you track how long. Spaces take you then and use that for benchmarks? 

Justin: yes. I try to as best as I can. 

Robbie: Have you ever [00:12:00] underpriced something and regretted it? And how have you handled that? 

Justin: Yeah, I think this is a good thing to talk about because I feel like there's two different ways of looking it.

When I've underpriced something, I've just beat myself up about it. it's a stupid thing, but at the same time, you're learning, you know that you're not gonna do this again. But I am the sort of person that I will stick through with the price. Unless they make a change to the thing. But I've always, I've never upped a price unless they've made a change.

And I know people that come in and that their go-to always is, oh, I thought it was gonna be this, but it's extra. And that's all, that's the norm. It's just the way they behave. But for me, I've never done that, but just carry, I do the work, do the best, don't like half as the work. It's good work, but it's, follow through with it and then just try and learn from it.

Robbie: Yeah. Take it in the chin. no, you have to, 

Justin: business and your brand and who you are, your work. I think 

you have to as well. I 

Robbie: love, we've talked about this, that you'd see a lot of your work being personal.

And just how do you price that? 

Justin: Yeah. That's [00:13:00] a big thing for me is I want to give the person value. And I have started saying now that what is your budget? And I think sometimes people see that as a red flag and say, if I say X thousand pounds, he's gonna say X thousand pounds.

And it doesn't work like that. It's just to manage expectations. And I think it just gets you in the ballpark of what they're thinking that something's worth. And I think a big thing is. At the start I was so offended by somebody who said, oh, that's gonna be 2000 pounds. I was only gonna, I thought it was 500 pounds, but.

I was so offended, and in the past I might have made really horrendous mistakes and made the 2000 pound thing for 500 pounds, and just because I was so offended. I wanted it, wanted to do it, and wanted to prove it. But it's just, you just can't. You can't do that. You just can't. And I think you have to have the expectations and know you're worth and know your materials, and know your ethic and know that you will [00:14:00] put in so much work into this piece.

That it's gonna be worth, you're gonna give more value and it's worth, you always do. 

Robbie: And would that be one of your opening questions, Thelan, whenever somebody comes and contacts you for work, what sort of processes do you go through to pre-qualify them to make sure that they fit?

Justin: yeah, that's it. I think there's such thing as a good client and a bad client. There definitely is. I think I have a submission form on my website and it has a budget to tab in. Some people just put nothing in there, which is not helpful. But that is a big factor because that manages the expectations and the, like a red flag.

I don't know if you get this, but it's I can buy this and. I, Ikea or somewhere else I found it for this. What price can you do it for? And we're talking handmade, we're talking like hardware, materials, high end stuff. Like it just doesn't work. So usually that's red flag if you see things like that.

But yeah, very much get their budget and get the amount of creativity and the value they place in you. I've had guys come to me before and say, look, just, you're the man. You just do this. And it's so good for me. 'cause it's just like this guy [00:15:00] trusts me. This is a piece that's gonna be an early piece for their family.

The brothers and sisters were fighting over it who's gonna get it? And I was like, there's something so lovely about them trusting me that I can do what I wanna do. I do put so much effort and like thought and design into the things and that like it really goes a long way.

Robbie: And how do you handle whenever somebody says, Hey, that's the expensive words. 

Justin: yeah, 

Robbie: or the hundred, the a hundred questions that go with that. Yeah. What do you say? 

Justin: It's a good one. Again, I've been on a journey from this, and now I know in my heart that I can't afford it for anything less and that, so it's if they can't afford the price that it should be, I can't afford that.

it comes down to worth, because what they're saying in some roundabout way is, I don't think it's worth that. So I feel totally fine by saying I can't afford that for any less because it's true. 

Robbie: I think so. My own business my own business now, 'cause due to the videos, I don't have a lot of spare time.

And we pre-qualify clients beforehand and one of the things we do is we post [00:16:00] pictures. We'll ask them to send pictures. If they can't be bothered to send a picture, or if they can't put in their full address, or if somebody doesn't gimme their full name and their address and their phone number, then I know right away that they're not really properly invested in getting a code from me.

Yeah. And if they can't post a picture of the lawn, then that's another thing, 'cause we do launch treatments and more often than not, people will phone me up and say, I'm with a franchise with X franchise, can you come and gimme a quote? And I'd say straight from the off if you're looking for a cheaper quote.

That's a big thing that's not us. 

Justin: Yeah. 

Robbie: I think my videos on my other channel show that we do a good job, but if you're looking for the tip as quote, I can't, you're probably not the right client for me. 

Justin: Exactly. And that is a big thing. And I've learned that the hard way as well, that if you're, 'cause I get those as well, you feel like the same emails going to multiple people and you just don't wanna be there because you will never be, if you wanna strive to be the best, you'll never be the cheapest.

You just can't. 

Robbie: So another question that will often comes up Where do your jobs align? would you say if you present a job, the [00:17:00] customer, and they ask for additional work to do, is that a case by case basis or it is?

How do you 

Justin: handle that there? It is a case by case basis. There's some people that you've worked for and I've worked for bigger firms and they've been worse for this, making bigger changes with this expectation that nothing price-wise will change. It depends. If I'm making a custom piece and they go, they want it to be extra, whatever, a few inches long, wide, whatever, and the piece is all like that, I'm all about giving them the value.

If I've glued up a big, massive table and I can afford to give them extra, that's fine. I don't mind that. 

Robbie: at some prices there. For typically, what something would cost, if you 

Justin: a table, starting from about 1,001 and a half. Know upwards and it just, and that's the thing as well, 'cause I think it just goes up depending on what sort of legs you want, what sort of wood you want, what sort of design does it extend, what sort of shape do you want?

All of those things. There's so many questions that people need to be able to answer and sometimes. If you get a, this is the dimensions, 

Do you know what I mean? If, 'cause I've had people say to me, oh this, I can get this for 800 pound and they can't, 'cause I know. [00:18:00] So yeah, it'll all come back on you like that,

and so how would you push back I push back, I learned the hard way kinda getting screwed over a bit by a bigger firm that like if there's a major change, there needs to be a price, not a, oh, I know this is gonna be extra, there needs to be a no.

This is how much extra is gonna be. And I happened to be one time, and from that then I learned that I usually take 50% deposit upfront before I start working. That gets you in my queue of stuff to do. But with bigger corporate firms, I now take a hundred percent upfront, which sounds crazy, but I have really missed out big time.

And if they can't put the trust in me, I unfortunately have put the trust in them and I've lost out before. So now I take all the money up front with the bigger things. And to define 

Robbie: what to push by pushback on that whenever you started then? Just that. 

Justin: No, because I think if they want to work with you and they know your skillset.

They don't really have a choice because [00:19:00] they're coming to you for a reason. They know that you're gonna do what you say you do, you're gonna do a good job, you're gonna try and design it as best. And I'm quite good at taking their branding and taking their ethos, taking anything I can for the business and incorporating it into the piece, whether it's colors, shape, sizes, dimensions, proportions, all this stuff.

So like you get all of that, and they may know that 

Robbie: and what will be the width term on. Typical bit time to get an ACU to, 

Justin: yeah. Current commissions, like bigger commissions are usually about four to six weeks, but just totally depends on what they are. But yeah, around four to six weeks. And 

Robbie: how long would the average take the average pace take to, I know different projects are gonna be different.

Justin: I seem to tend to work on things over the time. if I have small online. Etsy things getting sold. If I have classes in, it's gonna extend the time. So like a tabletop might be glued up for a week while I'm sorting out other stuff. I never really compress it into that time. But it does take, 

Robbie: Yeah. All the time. 

Justin: Yeah. And even I like to get the word and then dimension it a bit and then leave it. 'cause it can move. I like stickering that up [00:20:00] so that it can. So even those timeframes, I always try and incorporate all that in.

Robbie: And how much. 

Reclaim material versus normal material or where would you source most of your material? 

Justin: Yeah, it totally depends. A lot of the times I would use just hardwoods and I just buy them rough song and I just dimension them all myself in the workshop. But I go through periods of using a lot of reclaimed stuff.

There's a reclaim yard to go to just outside banger, and I get a lot of the hardwoods in Belfast. 

Robbie: Would many clients ask you for. 

Justin: Yeah, I think sometimes that can be a danger as well, because there's this thing that if something's rustic or reclaimed, it's gonna be really cheap.

And sometimes there's a link between rustic and rough, and I can't be, I can't part of that. I'm also trying to source it. Yeah, exactly. So even if I get stuff that's for free, I'm really fortunate, like the more you're in business, you get phone calls or you get there's this going, would you like it?

So I'm really fussy about the reclaim stuff that I use. 'cause I want it to be safe. I wanna know where it's come from and I wanted to look like it's safe before even [00:21:00] touching it. But. The process of going, picking up and it's gonna need Dene. It doesn't need you're gonna be putting it through your planer or like sand or whatever.

It eats all those things. Like there could be dust on it, there could be stones on it, there'd be nails in it, you name it. And it's work. 

Robbie: it's a bit like a two swords telling logs. 

It's all the logs, all the wood sitting there, but it needs processed down into the logs.

Exactly. 

Justin: Yeah, very much 

Robbie: So have you ever had a project go sideways? And how did you fix it? 

Justin: I didn't have, I didn't really have one. I've never had one go really bad. I've had ones that were changed and then they didn't want to pay the extra.

But there was one that comes to mind where I made this desk. I was so proud of it. I thought it was lovely. Real high level finish. I even, it was back in the day, I took it home, set it up, and did photo shoot set up. Lovely. Beautiful. I was really proud of it and I made the mistake of sending.

Picture to the customer and they expected it much more rustic. And they wanted it rougher. They wanted it dinged up. They wanted it like lines on it and stuff. And [00:22:00] I had to take that thing, beat it up and do a bad job of the finish. 

And by the end of it, I was so disappointed in the way it looked. I thought it looked paty, I thought it looked rough, and I sent them new pictures and they thought, this is the best thing. Love it. Absolutely love it. So it is, it's just a perspective thing. And maybe the customer is always right, so 

Robbie: if they're not, a customer isn't always right, but you just need to bend them around your way thinking 

Justin: That's it. 

Robbie: On that note, how do you set clear boundaries 

Losing plans. 

Justin: Yeah. I think it's a funny one, and I'm maybe not as good as this, but it's that whole thing that you're supposed to under promise and over deliver. That's a good mentality. I'm maybe not always good at that, but I think the boundaries should be expectations of size and price and all of that upfront.

And, an estimated time. I do take 50% deposits off people. 

Robbie: customer says? 

Is it ready yet? 

Justin: Yeah, mark. 

Yeah, sometimes. Is it ready yet? I don't, to be fair, I don't get that a lot. I think it would be worse if you were able to knock things out and you didn't [00:23:00] have to wait.

I feel like, because there's a wait for a reason, if 'cause they're, I'm doing all stuff, so it's kinda a good sign. But yeah, I think the boundaries are like, you try and keep them as up to date as possible and that, and if there is a delay going, like your isn't gonna be ready. And nobody said it might be, but I'm facing this and all the time. Everybody's okay with it. 

Robbie: ever send pictures halfway through or let customers know halfway through where going? 

Justin: Sometimes I think I like to involve them in the build of the table or whatever. And if I am gonna make a design change I can say, look, this is table like here.

I think it looks good with this sort of overlay or this sort of profile, what one do you prefer? Like I think people appreciate that 'cause they're getting a table that they're helping design 

Robbie: Would you ever say no to a project, even if it's gonna be a big payday for yourself?

Justin: Yeah, I think I definitely would. And I have, when you say no, it feels bad at the time, but when you think about it and you look back or like in the future, you think, oh, I'm so glad. But yeah, definitely. Sometimes people have. Like it's a bigger business, have done this going, oh, go on, [00:24:00] we've got X amount of money.

You can make that work when you've given the higher quote and you're sitting thinking going, oh, that is a lot of money, but you forget you're gonna have a batch, 200, 300, 400 things out, which is crazy, and it is, it's like trying to be true to yourself and going, no, you know what?

I said this for a reason. I wasn't, overpricing it just for the sake of it. 

Robbie: It knows often the, one of the most important words you can say, as a self-employed person, would you believe? 

Justin: Yeah. Oh yes, a hundred percent. And if you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else as well.

So if I say yes to that big project where I have to bat say 400 things. I might really regret my life decisions, a hundred of those into it, thinking that's probably all of the budget used up now. And then I have to go and do another 300. So it definitely, there's a lot to be said about saying no. And you said no at the start for a reason and not to try and wave on that if you can.

Robbie: I came to find you was on your Instagram. And you also came through a recommendation. How do you usually recommend. Or advertise yourself and your business, and how has that changed over the years? 

Justin: When I first started off, I was very heavy on Instagram. It seemed to work really [00:25:00] well, and it seemed to get a lot of traction on that.

I think you just need to go across all of them. For my following, I felt like Instagram has been better than Facebook. Maybe other people are different, but certainly for me, I focus more on Instagram and my website's always been a big thing.

I'm really fortunate in that the SEO seems decent enough that if you search for custom furniture in Northern Ireland. Or woodworking classes in Northern AR Ireland. I'm pretty much up there in the top. 

Robbie: Who does the website 

Justin: I do all that my own. So at least I got something outta it. So all the SEO and like website stuff and all of that stuff is all me.

I did pay a friend to do Brandon for me, but even that, the start, I did own brand mind you, but scale of one 

Robbie: how important your brand and I and how important was it whenever we first started? 

Justin: Yeah, I think I was quite fortunate in that I always knew my brand was very important. So I've always tried to go this is good, this is high end.

This is like part of me, like I want the business. I want my business to be of who I am, and that's strive for the best and all of that authenticity and all. So yes, I always thought it was very [00:26:00] important. Etsy's been a good thing and that it's all that multiple streams of revenue, so it's good having an Etsy site.

It's good having my own website. 

Robbie: tell us a bit about your Etsy and how you use that and how you advertised yourself on there. 

Justin: Yeah. Etsy can be good and it's very oversaturated, but it's all about just like anything, you just need to be good at your niche. So you have to have your good pictures, you have to give good descriptions.

You can pay for advertising and it's all about being smart about it. Good product is obviously the most important thing.

Robbie: do you typically sell on 

Justin: Etsy's, all small sort of thing. So anything from shells, I make bottle winners, T stands cooking things, so like salt and pepper, pinch pots, all those sort of things. 

Robbie: Would you tend to find Etsy would be lower value items? Lower ticket items? Yeah, very much 

Justin: I have never went on Etsy with higher items, higher price items, just because packaging and transport. Big pieces is a real nightmare for us in Northern Ireland. For me, I find, so that's why heavier, bigger things, they only do local pickup for in my [00:27:00] house or in Northern Ireland.

Robbie: And you talked about advertising on Etsy.

Is that something you do or you don't do? 

Justin: I do. Etsy works on you. Assign a value per day, a per a dollar amount per day. And so I do, I go on and off things like you need to do it long term to see if it's working for you. And it doesn't, with ETS doesn't always equate the seals.

So sometimes if you're promoting a product, you might not be getting a return value sales wise, but you're getting thousands of people going to your shop. So it's you need to weigh up that yourself, that sometimes that's worth it, even though. 'cause they can be buying all their stuff.

They can be learn about you, they can come back. It's putting you up higher up in the algorithm as well. So you want the search on an oversaturated place. You wanna be as close to that top as you can. 

Robbie: how much of your time then would you devote to Megan? Spaces for ets say opposed to like clam work?

Is that just more of a side hustle that feeds into the business? 

Justin: It's all at once and it, wherever it comes from at the time is the place that I focus. I tend to not try and take any [00:28:00] commissions from the 1st of November because Christmas can be mental and it can be then I can be doing loads of ET and loads of online.

Robbie: a really good time as well. 

Justin: So I'll focus really highly on then, and then other times it just, if it's coming that way, that's what I'll concentrate on and that's what I'll batch out. 

Robbie: And what are other methods used to advertise yourself?

Justin: Yeah, only social media at the very start and it pulled enough in. But looking back, it probably wasn't a business it was a hobby like you think if you get a hundred pounds, I've made a hundred pounds, and you don't factor in any materials, costs, overheads.

Any of that sort of stuff. 

Robbie: Looking back, if you were to tell your younger self, what would you do differently? 

Justin: Goodness. I think I would just be like, have more faith in yourself and I think there's a struggle in a sense that I'm not formally trained and carpentry work and whatever.

I don't even know what to tell people. When people say what do you do? I'm still like, oh, I make custom furniture. So there is that. 

Robbie: I still tell people I'm a gardener. 

Justin: Yeah. [00:29:00] And nobody likes YouTubers. 

Robbie: They say you're a YouTuber, that's it's like a dirty word. 

Justin: new, my kids wanna be YouTubers.

I think it's a new profession. Yeah. I definitely, like you need to focus. I have learned the hard way in that I could be the best cross person in the world, in Northern Ireland, whatever. I'm a terrible business person and be that starving artist and not be able to pay my mortgage and pay my bills.

And the flip side, if I was a good businessman then I'm a terrible crafts person. I could be a millionaire. So it's like somebody once said to me, your work's great, but nobody knows. Not enough people know. 

I spent years of my life trying to. Focus on this.

Robbie: Is there any networking, I know that you don't want to get back into the corporate world, but networking might be really good for you to sell your pieces. 

Justin: Yes. I might, we talk recently about LinkedIn and something I'm gonna try and put more effort into.

I'm gonna try and start doing more blogs and more mailing lists just to try and get that word out. is it seven touches you're supposed to have before people get a seal? [00:30:00]

Robbie: Generally? So they say that. Somebody needs to see an ad seven times.

Justin: Yeah. 

Robbie: Before they'll act on it. 

Justin: Yeah. So I feel like in my head, oh, not Mark Ghen talking about this thing, Whereas it's necessary and it's changing that mindset that I need to be aware of you know what, you just need to keep showing up and people can think what they want of you, whatever. So you just need to keep doing that.

Robbie: Yeah. 'cause we had another girl Louise Nan, and she's a LinkedIn expert and. She helped a Liddy who was very similar to yourself and we talked about this over the phone. She helped a Liddy who sold a art and she was putting it on the Instagram when she was working, her working her way out and put it on the Instagram, and that is a good place for it.

But Louise said to her, look, you should put it on the LinkedIn. And then what you found was corporate people were banned and it really totally skyrocketed for, so people were putting news. Bits of art and of their corporate buildings. 

Justin: Yeah, definitely something to think about and I think that's another thing in [00:31:00] business as well, that there's just always something and you need to be on top of it.

You do. Yeah. With the new whatever it is. I'm not saying LinkedIn is new, but it's like you're never, one thing is never enough,

Robbie: do you focus more on local clients or have you found through your website and social media that you're now getting.

People from further request work from you. 

Justin: The dream is to make lovely furniture pieces to be able to ship all around the world, but just logistics for me it's more difficult now. But yes, I've been so shocked by the likes of, whether it's Instagram or Facebook or Etsy, all of these things.

But Etsy wise, I sell all over the world. I make we DIY robot kits for kids to make. And there's more of them in America than anywhere else in the world, which blows my mind that all these V robots are getting sent over. So it's a great way of opening up and expanding my brand and my stuff and the ethos of that, like I am like a product of making and who you're made to be and the kids that were designed to do this in an undervalued [00:32:00] world, you could probably get grunt for that. I probably could. 

Robbie: You definitely should. You might find that your local counsel will be able to give you grants and help and advice that. Excel that or Yeah, it's definitely something to work 

Justin: into, but that mentality of like, all kids are different. Not all kids are gonna be mad into English and math or just be good at English and math and this is a great expression for your kids and you to spend time with 'em and learn and us to learn how to lead.

Where'd you come up with the idea for that? It was, I used to run workshops for kids and my kids, I've got three kids. And so they love coming the workshop and the go-to thing was building robots. And I suppose like most things you make, it's like people ask you for something and then somebody else ask you and think, oh, there might be something here.

And so we, they always came to make all sorts of crazy robots. And I ran classes and then I came up with this idea of making your own robot and a love of that, a love of that like adult, like child led. Teaching you, it's so difficult to stand back and go where are we putting the eyes?

And that's the challenge. And there's a weed document [00:33:00] to talk you through. It's try and take a step back, try and get your kid to go. This is what my robot is because it's mine. So it's just that creativity should be nurtured and you could see that in your kids with that.

And you could learn a lot about your kid with way they're leading you,

Robbie: and have you tried to take that anywhere else? Is that, sounds like something that it worked well in a lot of with kids grips and Emory schools and sounds like you could really grow that. Have you tried to push that anywhere else?

Apart from Etsy and the sale online? 

Justin: No just on my own website. But no, it's something that probably would be really good for parties and stuff like that. We've done, like our own kids have had robot parties and dog robot parties and all sorts. But yeah, it's definitely got potential, but it's just trying to time getting the value, the time marketing it, and yeah, all of that.

Robbie: Have you explored different ways that skill. 

Your business without compromising on the quality? 

Justin: Yeah, it's something that you always wanna try and do. I want that handmade that ethos and that quality through it all. But [00:34:00] then at the same time, if you're batching out hundreds of things, you can't necessarily do that.

Or if you do, the budget would be crazy for it. And so recently I've invested in A CNC. And I use laser engravers and they're a good way of using my designs. And obviously that's not gonna do the finished piece, but it's gonna do some of the work for me. 

Robbie: it up your workflow?

Justin: It can be two times as the amount, because it can be working in the corner while I am going having a cup of tea or doing something more productive So it can be like a person, which is incredible, but. I'm all about sometimes the precision I love like if a whiskey company comes to me and says we need like 82 millimeter pole for this thing.

Like in the past I used to have to get out and do this all by hand. Whereas now I can have a set like real super precision so I can almost do higher things, in that and batch it out as well. 

Robbie: What gig companies have you worked for? 

Justin: I'll tell you about ps. PS have been great. I got a random phone call one time from this guy, and do you know what it's like? There's so many scams nowadays. I've [00:35:00] been scammed. I know how many times people send, they're gonna give you the world and all, and he, it just sounded too good to be true. He's a whiskey company and they want to do like a writeup, like a.

We spell about handcrafted heroes of Northern Ireland. And I was taken back, I was like, this is gonna hurt me so much if this is fake. But it turned out to be they came around and they had film crew and they did a we short biography type thing. Like it'd be documentary on my ethos and what, who I am and what the handmade thing is.

And they were great brand to work for I ended up doing work for them. they appreciated the fact that. with their logos, it was, I think they have a 19 page document on their branding guidelines of all where the colors, shapes, sizes, everything. And I geeked out about all that.

I was cutting out and at that stage I was hand cutting out on the bandsaw, all these intricate letters and they all had to be precise and they appreciated that. And I just loved, it was like, I like whiskey. So it was great. I was like, this is honest this. I'm not like promoting something that, you know.

So it was just, it was a nice thing and I was honored to be [00:36:00] picked to be that and to get that limelight. So it was great. 

Robbie: Brilliant. And have you done any, what other high profile? Jobs, have you done our contracts? Can you name any? 

Justin: just done some like restaurants and coffee shops and stuff like that.

And I'm working at the minute I'm in talks with a big company. It's gonna resell something for me. So yeah, you're talking about scaling up and I'm just, going into it. Like still going, is this a scam? Or, I gonna make money at this. How is this gonna work? How is this, 'cause it's not really for my brand, but it's work and it's scaling.

So yeah, it's just a learning curve. It really is. 

Robbie: And being able to mention 'em in the future. 

Justin: Yeah. And they, they're massive, big companies, but I have been stung by big company before. 

Robbie: Is that something that's on the outlook? 

Justin: Yeah, staff's a really funny thing. I have like my design, my ethos, my level that I want to be putting out stuff at. So I find it really tough to think that somebody's gonna curve enough about my business and like the bottom of my dining tables. I'll probably look as nice as the [00:37:00] top and like I can't, they shouldn't, but I can't not do that.

And is somebody gonna go, I'll sand this for an extra two hours because Mark would do that? I don't know. I have a friend, David that is a fantastic to me. Like he's, he helps me out and he helps me out running courses and moving machinery or if I really stuck and eat I pe and coffee for goodness sake.

But that is excellent and I suppose. he's like the go-to trust person because you just know that not only you can trust him around people in a professional, helpful, friendly, knowledgeable way. It's really hard as a business owner it's

Robbie: especially to find their first employee.

Justin: Yeah. Dennis, 

Robbie: and you mentioned courses, so talk us through. When did you decide to start doing courses and how does that 

Justin: Part of my from the very start, I liked the idea of having an open course where maybe 6, 7, 8 people could come in and make a small project.

I think nowadays everybody's stuck in an office. They don't get to be creative. They were told they weren't creative. There's no value [00:38:00] in it, all of that. And I think there's a bit of an emerging thing that people are seeing some sort of value or a therapy in creativity or even a usage around your house of like reclaim stuff, repurposing stuff, all of that.

And I used to run those maybe once a month, but they just died of death in COVID that the corporate kind of lots of people in one place. And then I just started doing it one-to-one. And I think people feel so much more secure. I feel like they can't ask silly questions 'cause there's only one there.

Not that there is such a thing as silly question, but the values there and the, there's nobody watching them. They can't make a mistake, in front of everybody. So now I only really do the one-to-one sessions with people. 

Robbie: And how does that even come about?

You like doing courses? Was that just a way that you could see that you could make more money? 

Justin: Yeah. A bit of that, but I am passionate about what I do. I love that I can give that to other people and if you go on and look at my business, Google reviews, like people get so much out of it.

people come up to me and say, since I left that I [00:39:00] had this confidence I could do this. People who had never, who had a lathe sitting for two years that weren't brave enough to open the box now using it. I'm good. I'm all great and it's brilliant.

I had a phone call from my wife once saying. her husband and her were there and she had said, I have not seen my husband that happy in years. And part of that's really great, and part of that's so sad. But in that moment, in those hours, you cannot think about anything else. You're in the moment and the achievement and the self-worth that you get when you have that piece and you're going home going, I made that, that looked like nothing.

Some people can't even see it at the time until we get the finish and the wax and all, but. That feeling and that, for me, seeing that and getting that feeling is brilliant. I love it. I really do. 

Robbie: Would you ever think about a way to skill your business? Would you ever think about putting that online as in getting somebody to do put out for it and making a course?

Yeah, I think that's something, is that burden, 

Justin: yeah, it's something that could work and be beneficial. But for me, I haven't done anything in my business that I really want to get to, and it's like another thing on the list. So I probably [00:40:00] should work on that because if I put the effort in, it would always be there for me.

But it's just getting to it. 

Robbie: And how often, how many courses would you tend to run? A week and month? A year if, do you have a block time whenever you take courses 

Justin: yeah. 

Robbie: Do you try and schedule 'em and maybe quiet times, How does that work?

Justin: At the minute, I'm doing a lot of the Christmas ones. So before Christmas people have got, it's good Christmas for people to buy for some people. So I'm doing quite a lot. I'm maybe doing three, four. In a week. I did four last week. And I'm, I've maybe only one this week and maybe two next week. So it just completely depends.

I try and schedule it during the day if I can on their time. But it's something that I might look into that may maybe make more sense if I had certain days. That I could schedule in and then know in advance that maybe not to do work around that. 'cause it can be a bit frustrating if you have half days here and half days there to try and to get it into a project.

Robbie: For anyone wanting to turn their craft into their business, what advice would you give them? 

Justin: This is a great one. Again, it's completely changed. You [00:41:00] need to love it so much. You need to have, you need to be passionate for it. I would do this if I wasn't making any money or if I didn't need to make any money.

And that is, but we all 

Robbie: do need to make money. 

Justin: But the journey is not worth it. making money or not making money for those things, it's not worth it to a certain point. If you can and you've got a job, I would say get good at your craft or your skill.

Learn about it. Be a student of it. You can never know enough. Try and friends and family things is a good thing in that you can use those skills to try out and learn on the job. before you try and make any big decisions because you don't wanna jump out too soon. But definitely go easy.

be careful about friends and family as well. 

They don't necessarily 

Robbie: give you good advice either, especially if you're a mom when you're aunt or whatever, and he's never been self-employed and you say they're only during two or 300 pounds a day, and she's

Justin: oh, that sounds free, 

Robbie: expensive.

Yeah. And that's it. And I think. Half the time, or most of the time they're projecting their own fears on you. Like not a lot of people do self-employed, and I know why. And you know [00:42:00] why? 'cause it's not for everybody. And it is, it's just a different mindset.

Justin: It's a different life. It is a life, like I'm fortunate in that like I love my work. So it's, it doesn't really, even though it's hard work, it doesn't necessarily feel like hard work. 

Robbie: especially in Northern Ireland, small businesses are. They're the, they feel like they're nearly three and four between the Northern Ireland.

Justin: Yeah, and I think we have a bad outlook in that. We wanna be safe, we wanna you've got a good job there. If you're sick, they'll pay you if you don't turn up or whatever. If anything happens. and as I said, like I looked at my life going, I might have 35 years left at this.

I had two kids at time with three kids now. I wanna tell those guys they, they want. To be like me in the sense that one of my kids said to me, oh, this isn't fair. You're dropping me off skill. I have to go and sit in school all day. You're gonna go to the workshop and play all day. And I was like, that's true, Sean.

That's it. But you need to pick that life for you. 

Robbie: like the kids to come into the business with you? 

Justin: I think it would, but again, I don't wanna push 'em into their mold that's not suited for them. I like, I can see things about them that would be great for my business. I do not wanna like force 'em into that [00:43:00] mode.

What I wanna do is for my kids is have all of the opportunities and go let's go well today or let's go and grind some, their cuts on their layers and grave, CN, c, all these things like, use them and then they can see whether they have safe the skills set for it. 

Potential that can have as opposed to just numbers on a skill thing. 

Robbie: Tell me this here, did you think you were a creative person back then? 

Justin: No, because I were. You weren't allowed to be. But somebody said to me recently that maybe like the whole anxiety thing you talk about everything happened for a reason or lot and they had said about have you ever thought that it's made you who you are?

And I was just like, whoa. And. Like that constant worry cycle of like troubleshooting, what are this? It like lead to this complete creativity of what other way can I do? Or what way can I join these two things? Or what other idea can we blend together and all this. So that made me good at my job because I was always troubleshooting if that doesn't work, what we do to this or what will affect of that?

Having that, so I was, but I didn't allow myself to be and it wasn't valued [00:44:00] as that. 

Robbie: quite only about leaving school with no qualifications. And we're interviewing people from all over the UK that are run a small business and a lot of things have been mindset. I suppose as well, how much has mindset affected your business and where you've come from and where you are now?

Justin: Yeah, I to see, to be perfectly honest, it is actually quite difficult. I bumped into something that I worked with at one stage and they kinda looked at me like, like you're doing trades thing, and I said to him, I'll go back in it. And there is this, a lot of kids are 

Robbie: led to believe the university's the only way.

Justin: Yeah. Yeah. And it just that you need to know that for your kid and I think you can just do what's good for you. Like that corporate world can be for everybody, but I just hate that the value placed on skillset of the corporate world is up here. And the value on stuff that you and I do down here without.

Ever having put in decades of time and hard work and knowledge and learning and trial and error, that is so undervalued and so underappreciated on the job training. and I think that is [00:45:00] definitely a different mindset to get into. 'cause I've been in both camps. And I know how much skill

Robbie: You're in a very fortunate position 

Justin: Hope so 

Robbie: I'll see. 

So tell me this here, that's been a fantastic interview. Where can people get in touch with you and how can they find you? 

Justin: if you Google Justin with ni, everything should be there on social media.

It's Justin Wood and I. And my website address is Justin Wood ni.co uk but more memorable, I've recently purchased sexy furniture.co uk. I love that more memorable. 

Robbie: Thanks very much. 

Justin: pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Robbie: Thank you.