People at the Core
From The Greenpoint Palace bar in Brooklyn, New York writers and bartenders, Rita and Marisa, have intimate conversations with an eclectic mix of people from all walks of life about their passions, paranoia and perspectives. Featured guests could be artists or authors, exterminators or private investigators, or the person sitting next to you at the bar.
People at the Core
From Bartender to MFA Student to Teacher: Krystal Marie Orwig on Rewriting Her Story Arc
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What drives someone to uproot their life and move across the country with no safety net? For Krystal Marie Orwig, it was a childhood dream that refused to die.
"I was 12 years old when I said I was gonna live in New York," Krystal shares, reflecting on how she made that declaration long before understanding what it would mean. After moving from Southern California at 26, Krystal built a life in NYC starting as a bartender—a career that introduced her to friends, her fiancé, and a sense of community, but never felt like her final destination.
Krystal takes us through her transformation from practical communications major to creative writing MFA graduate, and now teacher at City College of New York. With remarkable candor, she reveals the challenges of pursuing creative dreams when you've been self-supporting since your teens. "I worked full-time throughout college... I was never able to fully dedicate myself to school because I put myself through my undergraduate degree," she explains, making her later decision to commit to writing all the more significant.
As founder of Must Love Memoir, a NYC reading series dedicated to non-fiction writers, Krystal has created the literary community she needed while elevating a genre often dismissed as mere "navel-gazing." Her insights into teaching today's college students—navigating attention spans, technology shifts, and the AI revolution—offer a fascinating glimpse into higher education's changing landscape.
Through conversations about true crime obsessions, complicated parental relationships, and finding your voice as a writer, this episode explores how we build lives of meaning on our own terms. Whether you're contemplating a career change, struggling with imposter syndrome, or simply curious about the realities of pursuing creative work in your 30s, Krystal's journey reminds us it's never too late to follow your passion.
MUST LOVE MEMOIR Reading Series
Mentions:
Goodbye to All That by Joan Didion
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Email us! peopleatthecorepodcast@gmail.com
Meeting Crystal Marie Orwig
Speaker 1From the Greenpoint Palace Bar in Brooklyn , New York , writers and bartenders Rita and Marissa have intimate conversations with an eclectic mix of people from all walks of life about their passions , paranoia and perspectives . Featured guests could be artists or authors , exterminators or private investigators , or the person sitting next to you at the bar . This is People at the Core , the core Bum , bum , bum , bum .
Speaker 2All right I think looks like we're recording . Let's just hope so .
Speaker 3Well , I would like to hope that we are , it looks like it's got the countdown .
Speaker 2It's just been a minute . Why are you whispering ?
Speaker 3You're freaking me out . Sweaty balls .
Speaker 2I'm sorry , okay , normal speaking voice . Yeah , sorry , I'm sorry , okay , normal speaking voice .
Speaker 3Yeah , sorry , I'm feeling weird .
Speaker 2I know you are bud , but I'm happy we're doing this . We had a couple week break for planned and unplanned reasons , but we're back at it .
Speaker 3Yeah . Back in the back room of the palace , back in the back room of the palace , talking about horror movies with our lovely , lovely guest .
Speaker 2Our guest . Yeah , she's here .
Speaker 3Yeah , I know .
Speaker 2Should we bring her into the convo ? Yes , okay , our guest today is Crystal Marie Orwig , and while I have her professional bio , I actually met Crystal maybe 10 years ago . How long have you been dating , ryan ? 10 ?
Speaker 4years .
Speaker 3Yeah , oh , wow .
Speaker 2She was a friend of a friend of my couple friend and we were hanging out at their house and , yeah , I met Crystal as Ryan's girlfriend . And then fast forward 10 years , or eight years actually , and she's a writer . She has a reading series must love memoir . Our mutual friend contacted me and she said I have a friend who started a reading series and I think you would be great for it . Should I put you two in contact , melissa ? Yes , and she did , and I'm like wait a minute , I know this . She did and I'm like wait a minute , I know this girl , I know Crystal . I was like , oh , what the fuck ? She's got an MFA . She started this reading series . She's a teacher Whole different life . So welcome Crystal , thank you . Technically , she is the founder and co-host of Must Love Memoir , a New York City reading series dedicated to non-fiction writers . She holds an MFA in creative writing from the City College of New York , where she also teaches English , composition and undergraduate creative writing . Yeah , so hey .
Speaker 4Hi Hi Hi , I'm here .
Speaker 3This is amazing .
Speaker 4I'm like trying so hard not to make noises outside of like just speaking and I'm like it's yeah , you're good . No , you're doing great , you're good we're low key on production .
Speaker 2Alright , if anything , I'm the worst offender , like Rita makes me . Not all pens have to be away from me .
Speaker 1I can't wear rings , I can't have clicky things um , because that's my like fidgeter .
Speaker 2Yeah , uh , default yeah , it happens , it happens yeah , so welcome , and yeah , so I want to kind of backtrack .
Speaker 3So I'm sorry I have to interrupt . I love're like so doing this NPR .
Speaker 1Listen . So on today's program we have Crystal .
Speaker 3It's cute , but it's weirding me out , Maybe .
Speaker 2I don't know , have I been watching too many docs and listening to podcasts ?
Speaker 3I think you have Shake it off baby . Yeah , All right . First off , where are you from ?
Speaker 2Where am I from ? I am from Southern California , socal , socal girl .
Speaker 4Yeah , so you've been here at least 10 years . I've been here for , oh , almost 11 . Did . I miss it , june 11th no .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's .
Speaker 4August .
Speaker 3It's August . Yeah , 11 years it's .
Speaker 4August .
Speaker 1I'm like what month are we in ? What year is it ?
Speaker 4That's how it feels when the summers come to an end and we're getting ready for the semester , I feel like I'm like what day is it ? What month is it ? Yeah , so 11 years . 11 years since I moved from Southern California , so Orange County area , not LA .
Speaker 3Gotcha , yeah , okay , and what made you come ? I mean , we always have to ask , because that's our deal Is what made you move here ?
Speaker 4You know , I get asked that question so much and I really have tried to figure it out and I don't think I have an answer . I always think of the Joan Didion essay Goodbye to All that , and that line that she says you , you know , if it had been some other , if I had been some other person or some other girl , maybe it would have been some other city , you know , maybe Chicago or Paris , because it's me it was New York and .
Speaker 4I feel like that's like the best way I can describe it like it was just I don't know . There was something I don't know . It was far away yeah exciting was it escape ?
Speaker 2was it escape ? Was it adventure ? Was it the movies , the stories , the idea of New York ? It ?
Speaker 4always felt because I wasn't like I wanted to be an actress , it wasn't like I moved for like there was something in New York I was looking for specifically . You know there wasn't at that time , I wasn't even like so engrossed in like writing or the writing world that I knew that like New York would be a hub for that like I would I wouldn't even have known , but because I was like I was 12 years old when I said I was gonna live in New York .
Speaker 4I didn't even know what that meant yeah , I wouldn't even have like I was . I like I have friends who are like you were , like in junior high school . You're like I'm gonna live in New York one day , like I think I just said it I don't even know if I believed it or or I don't know , but it was just . I think I saw it on TV , probably Dawson's Creek , you know the one that Joey goes to New York with , with , uh .
Speaker 4Jen and she gets you know , like Jen's like going all her old stomping grounds and stuff and and I'm just like I don't know . I just felt like it was . It was exciting , I think it far away and I think honestly it was just I didn't want to be where I was .
Speaker 3Yeah , for sure . And .
Speaker 4New York felt like I don't know . It was in enough things that I think it was just I saw it enough and it was like I don't know . I think it was just like it's kind of when I decided .
Speaker 2I didn't want to be where I was . That was like the next thing I saw on TV . Probably you know my default and I got fixated .
Speaker 4Yeah , it was like the thing that came by and I was like that's gonna , I'm gonna get on
Moving to New York with No Safety Net
Speaker 4that one , and I , just I became fixated on it and it never went away . And it was there for from 12 till when I finally did it at 26 yeah , yeah and so .
Speaker 4I could never get to the like . Why New York ? And I don't know . I've got that question workshop and you know my writing workshops . Like my memoir talks about moving to New York and there's a whole couple chapters of getting here and having nothing and not having a place to live and figuring it out and they're like why did you want to be here ? And I'm like I don't know , why is that Like ?
Speaker 3yeah . Why does that have to be a question Like ?
Speaker 2I don't know , I don't know . Yeah , so I always love especially when it's not a fixed reason the starter stories of like how you acclimated to New York life Because it is a specific skill set and you know I did it as an adult skill set and you know I did it as an adult and I can't imagine like being younger or like you know , yeah , how that goes through .
Speaker 226 isn't super young , but you're still like figuring shit out and like what neighborhood do you pick ? Like what , where do you live ? How do you , where do you get a job ?
Speaker 4and like so that's actually . It's funny , I didn't do a lot of research on those kinds of things before I came . Um so and I'll I mean I was young , but I've , in my opinion , never been young um my that I , I was living taking care of myself before I even realized I was taking care of myself , and so there was really never a sort of safety net , even in California .
Speaker 4Like so it wasn't like I was leaving , like I left like my family home and like you know , like it wasn't like I was oh , mom and dad are right there . And like you know , like I've got this , like I mean , I have my friends who are incredible and I do have a very close knit group of people that I love and that are still in California , that I , your chosen family , yes , and that I don't know what I would do without . And I know that if it ever came down to it , like I've got a place , you know , in the house that I left . You know , like , if I really was ever in dire need .
Speaker 4you know like Diva would let me crash there in a heartbeat . You know , but it's not . You know , it's not the same thing . And like having like just sort of that , like you know parents , you know family home , kind of thing . So I never had that . So it was like I don't know . I was like I could I don't know I could figure out how to pay right in California , which isn't cheap , by the way .
Speaker 1Southern .
Speaker 4California is not cheap , so it wasn't like coming to expensive city like New York was like a culture shock or something . Um , or I can come to New York and figure out how to do it Like so it was just kind of one of those things . So I don't know , I got here and it was like , I don't know , find a job , find a place to live . I've been doing that since I was 16 .
Speaker 3So like it wasn't that you know it .
Speaker 4just I don't know it was like so I was young . I don't know if I would have had the same like grit to do it at 21 . I don't know . I mean I don't know if that five years made a difference , or even 18 , if that you know , I don't know math seven years , don't make me do math .
Speaker 4But you know , I don't know if that five to seven , eight years made a difference , but by 26 , I don't know , know , I felt like I was . I was just like I don't know this is I gotta do .
Speaker 3I'm doing it regardless of where I am . So yeah , which makes total sense . I mean I I was very similar in that . I mean I just had a dream and I was like , oh okay , I'm gonna move to New York because I don't know where else to go and I just don't want to be here , you know , and not necessarily running away , but just a new experience , a new environment , right , and to be around what I assumed were like-minded people , you know yeah which I think makes huge difference .
Speaker 3So when you you talk about so you knew , since you're 12 or you started saying that you want to move to New York , did you know that you wanted to be a writer at the same time ?
Speaker 4I knew I loved reading . Um , it probably wasn't until high school that I knew that you wanted to be a writer . At the same time , I knew I loved reading . It probably wasn't until high school that I knew that I loved to write . So I did at some point know I wanted to write . I didn't know what that would look like or how that would manifest itself . I played with writing poetry Really , really bad poetry .
Speaker 2I'm so glad Like rhyming . Only I don't even know . I pray that it it doesn't .
Speaker 4I don't . I pray that it just doesn't exist somewhere . I think it's just lost to the world . I hope that's true . I just I hope it doesn't like just like like disappear somewhere .
Speaker 2I want a big notebook somewhere , yeah , to be unearthed .
Speaker 4I left a lot of things behind there and I assume most of that stuff is just gone Because my grandma , when she passed that house , got cleaned out and I just don't know where any of it went .
Speaker 2Some weird yard sale . Somebody's going to hear this podcast .
Speaker 4Yeah , reach out , they're going to find my poetry and my fan fiction and be like there it is . I hope not . I just hope not . But really I love to read and I , I there are diaries out there that I would be horrified .
Speaker 4Uh , I , sometimes I get sad that I don't have them , but then I'm also like maybe I'm being shielded from just yeah , right I don't know , sometimes I'm like it would be nice to , especially as a non-fiction writer , to have some of that , especially because a lot of that stuff is just blocked out . So for some reason I mean probably for reasons between me and- my Future therapy sesh .
Speaker 4Yeah , me and my therapist will get to the bottom of that one day . But I think , yeah , it just it was . I knew I liked writing . I didn't know what that would look like and I've always sort of had that imposter syndrome kind of thing . So when I got into college , a typical millennial experience , just you know , do the practical , you know degree . So I did communications instead of English , and .
Speaker 4I minored in English thinking . You know this will minored in English thinking . This will be like oh , I can still read and analyze literature and all that . But the communications degree kind of took over my writing and I started doing more news style writing and PR style writing and stuff and that just kind of took the creative juice away . You know , juice away for a long time and I didn't really start it up again until I moved to New York . Right yeah , so that was , and that was kind of just like happened accidentally .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 2No , yeah , so you're in New York , but you did an MFA program , like how far from the time that you moved here that you decided to pursue how was ?
Speaker 4it I mean . So I moved here in 2014 , and I started my MFA program in 2021 .
Speaker 2Oh wow , Substantial .
Speaker 4Yeah , I had been thinking about it on and off for a couple years . I was really . I was afraid , I was apprehensive I don't know if afraid , but apprehensive to go back to school , put myself more in debt and , like you know , do that sort of like commit to something that was , as you all know , not super guaranteed .
Speaker 4Yeah , you're not getting a doctorate . You know a lawyer degree , you know it's not something that you can , it's not something that's tangible or practical , um , but I kept going back and forth between um being a career bartender for the rest of my life , which was just looking more and more like I was going to end up on the news if I , if I went that route for sure um , because I was just done .
Speaker 4Um , plus COVID really just did a lot of eye opening in that regard . I just was , I was done with people and they're just bullshit Um and um I , and then I was dealing with a lot of physical stuff , with health issues , that were unanswered at that time .
Speaker 4have answers now . But at the time was what didn't have it ? And I was like physically I just didn't know if I could do it for any any more time . Um , so that just all those things kind of started and I was like you know what this is a kind of if I don't do this now , I'm never going to do it . Um , and I think COVID was the catalyst for like you know what ?
Speaker 4let's just it's I just , I only knew other bartenders . I'm not , um , I'm really actually not a social extroverted person by nature . It's really hard for me , um , most of the time . So , uh , I fake it pretty well and I think bartending has a lot to do with it , but it also has a lot to do with draining my social battery really quickly for sure you're preaching to the choir .
Speaker 3Yeah , I mean , you know we , the three of us , have talked about a lot of this before and , like you know not to insert myself into the conversation but I , I totally get that at 46 years old , I think about it all the time , like I'm fortunate that I own a bar . But I think when you move to New York you really do have a couple scenarios you fall into , and one of the main ones is the restaurant world , right , or the bartending world , and you can become a career one , and but it happens so quickly and next thing you know , you're 40 something years old , or 30 something years old , bartending and going what the fuck ? My body can't take this anymore . I mentally can't take this anymore . I , I , you know it's .
Speaker 2It's wild , right , they do one shift a week and maybe till like two or three , and it takes all of me to arrive , starting at 9 , 10 pm , and I'm like okay , but this bangs out a whole bunch of money and I just have to show up . I don't really have to like give myself other than my , my sleep , um , but also the introvert , extrovert part , it's where I get to be social without having to actually be social .
Speaker 2Like I don't have to really give myself . And late nights it's a lot of kids , so it's me observing and as an anthropologist , I'm like taking notes . How do they talk , how do they dress ?
Speaker 1How do they dance ? What is their ?
Speaker 2music . What are they drinking ? They're still drinking Long Island iced teas . Oh God , it's insane .
Speaker 2It's crazy , but that's also fucking draining , but also like it's draining and people think that . I think people think all of us are extroverted people because we're hosts of reading series , we put ourselves out there , we're bartenders , we're always engaging with different types of people . But I was just telling Ken . I was like I need a purpose , there's a thing . Later I was like I show up . I was like but I don't have an activity , I don't have a reason to be there and I'm just floating by myself . Chit-chatting with people Like that gives me such anxiety . Chit-chatting with people like that gives me such anxiety . And people are like wait a minute . You like command a room and like you do all this .
Speaker 1I was like no , but that's not me .
Speaker 2Yeah , I have a purpose , it's not me just being myself opening up to the world and that level of vulnerability , and I think we play with that with our writing . We get to hide a little bit behind the pen while working through some of that . Yeah , absolutely Especially you know , as you're focusing , you say , on nonfiction and memoiric writing and like .
Speaker 3Rita does fiction , but a lot of it is auto fiction . Yeah , yeah , yeah , no , no , I mean it is . It's intense , but I'm just so , I guess , to go back , I , I'm just so impressed that you were able to make that transition . I mean , I honestly think about it all the time , like I lay in bed at night watching TV , going should I go back to school and be a nurse ? No , I don't like dealing with poop . Should I go back to school and be a ? You know what I mean , but I do .
Speaker 3I think , about it all the time because I'm aging out of this lifestyle , I'm aging out of this career . So where do we go next ? And you know , am I a good enough writer to try and accomplish something like an MFA , or you know what I mean . And so I guess , for you , was it just kind of a situation where you were like , fuck it , I'm just going to try anyway . Or I'm just going to try . I mean , you're writing a spectacular and it really is like I was drawn to it immediately , immediately , and did you just kind of know ? Or was it a situation of fuck it , I got to do something else .
Speaker 4I mean I always . I never intended to be a bartender for forever .
Speaker 4Like that was never . I was never like I think it was the perfect industry to get into . Moving to New York alone without knowing a single person here , like building a whole new life , like that was something that I absolutely needed . I met , I met my best friends . I met my now fiance through that lifestyle . So I will forever be grateful to it and as much as I will like . I was just hanging out when I was my friend for her birthday . I was talking to one of her friends last night and I do not hold back when I talk about the bar industry and one of these days when I know I don't ever need another job in the bar industry , I will write my , my , my , ex , my manifesto about it . But , um , I , just I , I don't , I like I for all the , the , the shit I talk about it like pretty freely most of the time . Um , I , I was really grateful for it . It has a really lovely . It's brought great things in my life . I mean , it built my life in
Pursuing Writing and the MFA Path
Speaker 4New York .
Speaker 4The bar industry is the reason , I mean , I was able to start a life here and so I'm always grateful to it . And I kind of lost my train of thought . But I never thought . I never thought I was going to . I knew I didn't want to do it forever , but I just I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do and I was so afraid to make the wrong choice again .
Speaker 4And that's what kept me the fear of of doing the MFA , just like if I go down this route again and it's not the right choice , then I'm like doing I'm just getting to that age where it's it's not cute anymore to keep doing , to keep starting over and keep starting over , you know and . I did this . I went to college , I did that route 26 , you know , did the brand new thing , did nothing with the college degree that I got .
Speaker 1And then now Not on paper .
Speaker 2Not on paper . Not on paper Fair enough . All the soft skills that you learn organization , time management , communications , cohesive thoughts Fair enough ?
Speaker 4Thank you very much , that is true . So , because I am and I do say if I didn't get that degree , I wouldn't have been able to get a master's degree , so it did help me in that regard . I couldn't have done that . So it just became a part where I was like you know what I can try to do , the next practical thing , or I can finally just do this . And I will say , a lot of it had to do with the fact that I do have a super supportive partner who was like able to not only willing but able to let me step back from work financially to like like pursue that . And I had never had that before . Like I worked full-time throughout . I've been working since I was pretty much 14 years old . Yeah , I worked in high school . I worked full-time throughout college .
Speaker 4Like I was never able to fully ever like just dedicate dedicate myself to school because when I was , I put myself through my undergraduate degree , yeah , um . So that was a big like help and motivating factor to be able to like say , okay , I can do this because I have the support to do it . And so that was sort of the like and I knew I needed to find a writing community .
Speaker 3And .
Speaker 4I did like Gotham Writers classes which were great .
Speaker 3I did too , which we all have .
Speaker 2I love them .
Speaker 4They're great for like to generate material . It is so hard to find and I like it's so hard to find people in those for me at least , and at the time , and granted , we've established that I'm not the most extroverted person in the world , so maybe it was just hard to find people committed to like ongoing , sustainable writing community .
Speaker 3Yeah , I agree .
Speaker 4And what I find in an MFA program is that those , the people that are there , are very serious . I mean , they're very serious about that type of thing .
Speaker 2So do you think I don't have an MFA ? I don't either , neither does Rita . Most of our writing has been on our own and we've done things now with the reading series and stuff . But I'm curious do you think that the MFA program was necessary for refining your craft , or was it more about networking and creating community ? And do you think there was an alternative way outside of the system ?
Speaker 4That's a good question and I think I can answer for myself . I really think an MFA experience is very different for everybody and for what you go for , you have to kind of figure out what you want out of it there . I think it . I don't . I personally do not think , unless you're doing like a super low residency MFA , I don't . I don't think it did a ton for craft for me . Okay , I think that can be done .
Speaker 4I , the writing workshop structure for me is not doesn't always work . Um , I just I feel like it and I feel like those are the places you go to find your , your , your people , you hand pit , you just you go and you say I'm going to take you and I'm going to take you and you take them and you build your own group where you , you find the people that get what you're doing and that understand your writing and that you that you resonate with what they're saying and you resonate with with the people that get what you're doing and that understand your writing , and that you , that you resonate with what they're saying and you resonate with with the feedback that they're giving .
Speaker 4Um , so that you know that , like , you can actually like use the feedback to make the right that they understand , your right , you know like yeah , totally so much and I even had a professor in one of my um craft classes say you can usually throw out 70% of what you hear in a workshop .
Speaker 3Yeah .
Speaker 4Which to me so for workshops . For me it was really great in like deadlines , generating material like okay , this is pressure , I have to submit something . This is great . And then getting the professor's feedback , getting into those classes , finding those mentors , getting their feedback , that's great . But you're talking about spending at least in New York City , if you're not going to Hunter , which is impossible to get into . And I still don't think they even I think that their covered program doesn't even cover non-fiction yet , because they do have a .
Speaker 4They do have a . I think I , I don't know I , when I , when I was applying it , did not um , did not cover non-fiction , it was only poetry and fiction which is a whole nother . Thing yeah , but um , so , like you're paying a lot of money to you know , at that point I don't know , like , if you've got that , if you're willing to go in that kind of debt or you have that kind of money like I don't know , get a writing coach or get a ?
Speaker 3what get a writing coach ?
Speaker 4or , yeah , an editorial like pay a writer like you admire to do editorial feedback on your , on your manuscript , if you have it in you and you have the ability to like , hold yourself accountable and get writing done for sure yeah , right you need like there .
Speaker 4But , like I , personally , I do not regret my MFA . I am so grateful for the community I found there . It helped me generate material and helped me find out like , help me find my voice , I like . There's a lot of things that I I don't think I would be the writer and I would have the community that I I have right now if I didn't go there so you know , that's my experience .
Speaker 4I think if you're already writing and you already have that , then you know . I don't know if it's gonna , I don't know if it's worth it .
Speaker 3Yeah , I don't know , I think about it all the time .
Speaker 2I mean yeah , we ask so many people and everyone's opinion is yeah , and it to me it's a fact .
Speaker 3I mean , again , it's a dream when I lay in bed and go , shit , should I do this or like ? But it's so interesting to hear your take on it and and everyone's take . You know , there's uh , people feel very strongly about one or the other yeah um , but .
Speaker 3But I think that was a very beautiful response in the sense of to every person it's different . We're always trying to get something and I don't know why . I just had this flash of when I was in that writing program in Paris and I was kind of the darling right . All the professors loved me and they loved my writing , except for one , this woman , and she is like , oh , when I finally got to her class . I'm sorry , I just am thinking about this right now I'm remembering it .
Speaker 3But she was like I fucking hated it . And she was like I've heard so much good things about you and how great you write . I remember her saying this in the class and all the students were like once again Rita writes another great piece , blah , blah , blah . And she was like , oh , once again Rita writes another great piece blah , blah , blah . And she was like I fucking hate it . And she ended up being the head of Rutgers creative writing program and she loved me as a person or tried to befriend me , but I still think about , I still hear her voice you know what I mean . And that kind of makes me think about MFA programs in the sense of like , and I remember reading all her books .
Speaker 2Rather than creating your tribe of everyone who's supportive and loves your things like . You need a dissident . You need the critic . You need the heckler in the background saying why ? What are you picking out ? You're picking out some truth .
Speaker 3I agree with you or not , but you're picking up something and I got that and it scared the shit out of me and I just went oh , I'm not a writer , you're right , I'm fucking terrible and I shouldn't be doing this , and it just like sent me down the spiral , but but I mean also kind of a beautiful thing right in the sense of either I can rise above and prove yeah , cower or be defiant , but yeah so mean , it was really mean .
Speaker 3I mean she would like smoke cigarettes with me , because I was closer to her age and I'm sorry , I was closer to her age and we would like hang out in paris and drink and and she was my last professor and at the very end and I I distinctly remember people in the class going we love it . It was amazing . All the other professors loved it and she was like it's fucking trash .
Speaker 4Yeah , it's very , very bizarre constructive feedback everybody , come on , learn how to be . Yeah , you always say things .
Speaker 3Constructive feedback yes , it was not my favorite , because yeah xyz exactly have you considered but I mean I don't know , I mean I grew from it , I guess . I mean , I guess if it worked for you you're still writing , so yeah and drinking a lot and owning a bar I mean , but you stopped smoking cigarettes . I did stop smoking cigarettes .
Speaker 4You take the wins where you can take them , I guess Fuck .
Speaker 2But so to transition here , you actually are now teaching at the same school . Yes , so not only was this a launchpad for your networking and building up your own work and tribe , but now you are teaching . And so how does that feel to like ? Know the other side of that and two parts Is that something that you wanted to do and is that something you enjoy doing ?
Speaker 4Absolutely not , are you allowed ?
Speaker 3to say that I don't know um , but I said it , she's visual
The Challenges of Teaching College Students
Speaker 3.
Speaker 2She got real quiet , she got real close to the mic so absolutely never thought I would teach like .
Speaker 3I .
Speaker 4I , I like I . It's honestly way too close to bartending , like managing a classroom . I'm just like , I'm like , dude like and it's , I mean it's like . So I , to say I don't like it is as strong is strong . I will not say I don't like it . There are things I really do not like about it and I and I think it's not because I don't like teaching I don't like the circumstances that are our education system , especially in public education and just everything that it's and this does not need to go on a rant about , like the state of public education , um , and but I'm interested , I don't know if I want to .
Speaker 4I'm like . I'm like , will I lose my job ? Probably not , I don't know . Maybe , um , she signed a release for you , I , but I don't know if I want to . I'm like , will I lose my job ? Probably not , I don't know , maybe she signed a release for you . I don't , I'm not , like I'm not here , Like I don't think I'm saying anything . That's not like like , I mean literally , there's a union .
Speaker 2You're teaching , you're teaching some . You're teaching English comp , which is a requisite , and you're teaching an elective , a choice . So you're teaching an elective a choice . So I imagine that those two groups of students are different breed .
Speaker 4So the funny thing about the creative writing class is that it is a it does . It is an elective , but it is it does fill a requirement , okay . So it's not all like it's . It's different in that it's not all creative writing students in that class .
Speaker 2Gotcha .
Speaker 4So you get the student that's taking it because it know they're a you know , engineering major it fits their schedule . It , it hits that you know pathway . I forget what the passionate schedule fix it's a pathways to something is the . It's like you know , you remember and yeah you know , it's like you have those , like you know , you've got like , oh , you have to do a life science so you can pick . You know , I don't remember the life sciences . I'm going to say one People are going to be like that girl is real stupid .
Speaker 2I chose geology over earth science . I don't know . I don't know .
Speaker 4It's life science , physical science . I did , I looked at rocks . I just I forget which one's the life I did . I did astronomy and I did anthropology . Nice um . And then for my lab , I did astronomy lab , which was so much fun because we got to like go out and like look in telescopes and like look at the moon and then we did a . Uh , this is such a side track .
Speaker 4I'm sorry we're going on side that's great , we got to go on a we got to go on a optional field trip because you know you had to drive yourself um , because this was , you know , a community college and yeah , um . So fullerton , california , uh , fullerton junior college , which is a great college , um , but it was not funded , so we did a optional field trip and we drove out . I drove out to joshua tree to do .
Speaker 4But it was , like you know , because I , because I lived in Southern California , orange County , but like it's not , like it's a very populated area . So , like you don't see the star . Like it is a very dense area . Like it's very funny . Like I remember our astronomy teacher saying something about like seeing the Milky Way and like nobody in our class had ever seen the Milky Way and she was just like a bunch of city kids and I'm like we're not city kids , we're suburb kids , but like you know , I mean like 25 miles away from downtown Los Angeles you're like okay yeah , you're kind of close enough .
Speaker 4Um , but we drove I drove out to to Joshua Tree and there was just like so much cloud coverage that we couldn't see anything oh no , I was like okay , I don't get to see nothing , yeah , and so we got the credit for no , I got the extra credit , didn't have to write the paper and then just drove back , no gas reimbursement right .
Speaker 3Oh , that's funny .
Speaker 4So that was my , but , yeah , so my class , my creative writing class , is one of those where , like , they can take it even if they're not a creative writing class . So it is a different . I do kind of take a more lax approach to it . It's like it's , I want it to be fun , I want it to not feel like stringent . Um , the composition class is a little different because there are much more quote-unquote , rigid , uh course learning outcomes that I'm supposed to teach them , um , but I too , but I'm just I'm . So the first semester I taught it was just such a I was . I was like I almost like I can't explain how unprepared I was for how not prepared they were for college and how not like I was , just like I like they didn't know how to format a format a document .
Speaker 4I was like right and then I started really learning , because it's been 10 years since I graduated from the sorry . I graduated from college in 2011 , my undergraduate in 2011 , yeah , and high school in 2005 . Yeah , so like , and so that's I mean , and I graduated from my master's in 2023 . So you're 12 years from like me being like .
Speaker 2On your level . Yeah , so I'm like .
Speaker 4And also technology and everything has fucking changed too , yeah , and so I'm like I really had no , and I don't have , like you know , like younger siblings that are that much younger than me , like like all my siblings are about the same age as me , like you know , or just a couple of years . So , like all of this , to say that , like I had nothing in my periphery to prepare me for , like , what high school is like now ? What ?
Speaker 3anything .
Speaker 4So like I was just like completely blindsided by , like , what the rules are and what all , like I just I had just not kept up on education news , I guess , and even social cues .
Speaker 2You know of how they're communicating and how they want their information given to them .
Speaker 4And like they're , how the length of text they can handle . Um , like , like these kinds of things are just were like really shocking to me . Um just not doing homework , not coming to class , like these things felt so optional to them . And then um , and , and so I've done a lot more reading now and I'm a lot more , like , prepared for it , and but like . So these are the challenges that made me really be like . I don't even get to decide if I like to teach , because I have to combat all of these .
Speaker 2Learning curves for yourself to be able to even approach your job .
Speaker 4To know how to best to best like help or like to prepare these kids , because my class is , like it's designed to be a foundational class for them to learn how to like do research , to like synthesize information , to write , to cite sources , to assess . That sounds terrible to me .
Speaker 2That sounds like kind of a nightmare for me , and then we put in .
Speaker 4AI , and then I just want to , and then I just want to go walk directly into the East River , because then you have to combat that .
Speaker 2So it's like something kids turn in papers . Do you put it through a program to see if it flags ?
Speaker 4Or do you like that ? I've tried and I do . Oh God , this can get into a whole other conversation .
Speaker 2Yeah , but I didn't even think of these things Of just like the generational gap , of the learning gap , the technology gap of , you know , having been in this system 10 , 15 years ago , not just like as a person generation shift , but like literally the technology and the way that , yeah , the attention span , like how many thousands of pages were we required to read , like in high school , like yeah , right like oh , there's a bunch of synopses , like I'm finally just incorporating it into my reading list and stuff like this semester we're reading we're just reading about ai , we're reading about it .
Speaker 4I'm like we're gonna talk about it . I've got a new yorker , a couple new yorker articles , atlantic articles , about what happens when AI like just ruins college writing , like yeah the , the great language , flattening like what is what is doing the language , like it's just all I've got .
Speaker 4I'm just at this point gonna try to incorporate it because I , I do like my problem not my problem , but my like the the . The thing that brings me the most grief in all of my jobs is that I just I this is going to sound so like I don't know , not full of myself , but some version of that is that I just I can't not care so much about it , so like I don't know how to just like . I know so many adjuncts who just like shut off and are just like whatever .
Speaker 4Just you know , just don't . Don't Just phone it in like you're underpaid , you're overworked , you're just like what you know , because that's another thing . I'm like sure I'll handle all of this if you pay me like a livable salary yeah but ,
Speaker 4like it's also like all of this , like on top of the fact that , oh gosh , this is like I , oh , we got a transition . I'm like this is turning into one of my just rants about , uh , my , my teaching job . But , yeah , it's , it's one of those things that I just I , I want to . I , I , just I , I can't like , I just I'm like I get in my head about AI and I'm like I can't let it go like you know , I just like , like I can't dedicate a whole episode of like bringing on a conversation about that , because I would like to understand more .
Speaker 2Well , yeah , I don't understand .
Speaker 3We should dedicate a whole episode of like bringing on a conversation about that , because I would like to understand more . Well , yeah , I don't understand at all . I mean , I understand you can cheat on your papers and you know , but like can anyway side , we're going on a tangent . Well , we can talk about it's question time . Anyways , it's question time , yeah .
Speaker 2Well , I did want to ask one more thing about uh crystal , creating the community and , like outside of the program that you started , this reading series called must love memoir that both rita and I have it's a beautiful reading series .
Speaker 3It's one of my favorites .
Speaker 2Yeah , fantastic you have this focus . It's mostly non-fiction or it is non-fiction it's all non-fiction and not all memoir , but it is non-fiction and you've been quite successful with that and it's awesome you have all of these writers so like does that scratch the itch ?
Speaker 3oh , I get where you're going with this . You know of like almost even everything out in the sense of you know . Obviously it's a very complex situation that you're in with teaching and whatnot , and so does this sort of even yeah , scratch the itch , even out .
Speaker 4That makes sense you mean like when you say like , does it like scratch , like the creative , it like , does it like balance ?
Speaker 2yeah , because you , you , are in charge of this . You're curating the lineup so you get to read cool shit , not just kids fulfilling an assignment . You do your research of that and you build these lineups and you get to be in conversation with your peers or people that you aspire to have a career like .
Speaker 4Oh , absolutely . I think that the reading series it keeps my foot in the nonfiction memoir world , which I think is the most important thing to me . It allows me to we've kind of touched on this earlier a little bit but , being the the non-fiction writer and lover that I
Creating the Must Love Memoir Series
Speaker 4am , being this , like you know , just kind of like forgotten stepchild of the literary genres , I feel like it's very important to just keep highlighting non-fiction writers and it and I do feel that can be challenging to be a genre-specific reading series , because memoir does have that sort of like I don't know , I don't want to get too like preachy about you know , defending memoir here , but but like it just it can get that bad reputation of being for navel gazing or whatever . So I like , I think that it gives me that like platform to to highlight nonfiction as a genre , as an important genre , and introduce me to to writers , so that you know to writers that I would never know that I would never find .
Speaker 2We watch your lineups . Like yeah , I use you as a tool for myself .
Speaker 4People find me , which is amazing and I love that . So that makes me like you know people that I would never find , so definitely keeps me grounded in the memoir , like writing community , and I love that , and just reminds me that I still want to do this . Cool and that is that . Because there are times , especially during the semester and especially like now , it's like prep for the new . You know the syllabus and the my course materials and and I am teaching a prose workshop this semester which I'm really oh , that's exciting very , very excited about that because I actually get to do .
Speaker 4Can we sit in ? I don't actually know what the official policy is .
Speaker 2I mean , like I went to Berkeley at Cal there were , like most classes because some of them were very large we're talking upwards of like 700 people and you could write the professor and you're like can ?
Speaker 3I sit in . Yeah , I forget audit . Can I audit ?
Speaker 4um , I don't know , in an undergraduate workshop how that would work I know and I know in mfa workshops you can't . I know in mfa workshops you can't audit because workshops are very yeah , particular like . It's like lecture classes or craft classes .
Speaker 4You can yeah um , try to audit . But I know workshops can be weird , but I mean I don't know what the official policy is , but I'm very excited to teach prose workshop . But it is nice because there are times where my writing does have to take a backseat because it just gets so crazy . And the reading series as much as I love it , it is work and it is like , and so that can also take up time , um , and so it's , but , but so , but when I'm like , when I'm there and the event's happening , especially after , I always leave feeling so fulfilled yeah , I'm like oh , this is like .
Speaker 4This is why I do this , and it reminds me like I . This is why I keep doing this , you know to stay connected to these amazing people , to these amazing writers , and to remind myself that I still want to keep writing .
Speaker 3Yeah , that I am also a writer as well , because you read every time . Yeah , no .
Speaker 4I actually hope . So I got to say hi to my co-host . Hope we take turns every other . Oh , that's nice , Just out of sheer , like I it's running out of shit to read ? Yeah , and I just I'm like , just I just don't want to um , and we're actually like the rest of the year because we had so many submissions .
Speaker 4We're we're just taking ourselves off the lineup we may throw ourselves back on as like an added um , we're gonna turn our , turn our fucking marathon , just to be marathon reading events after like with how many we just we really like we had to say no to people in this last round and I just didn't . I hated that yeah um . So we added a seventh person to every lineup and took ourselves off wow just to like . Try to say yes to as many people as possible very cool um and uh , and then .
Speaker 4So we might just for the last two of the year , add ourselves back on and read something small , just because , like you know , we do . Like , obviously , part of the reason you do this kind of work and you put yourself out there and you don't get paid is to put your work out there too , because , at the end of the day , like that's writers I mean , it's unfortunate and fortunate at the same time that you do have to put all of that work in to build a platform and to put yourself out there and to do that , especially as a non-fiction writer , it's so much even more important . Yeah , um , and so this is , I mean , you know , shameless self-promotion and in some ways , um , and if you're going to do all the work to create the space you should be able to .
Speaker 2We will 100% put links to the series in the show notes , for sure . Did you want to do a question ? My love . Okay , I have to pee .
Speaker 3I'm going to be honest .
Speaker 2You have to pee .
Speaker 3I do . Do you want to wait ? Do you want to talk to us ? No , let's do a question , let's do a question . I can hold it . I'm a grown-ass woman .
Speaker 2Okay , this is like very easy . Okay , describe a simple pleasure .
True Crime, Parents, and Simple Pleasures
Speaker 3Murder TV shows and my dog .
Speaker 4Oh , don't say murder TV shows , because I am like on a true crime kick right now .
Speaker 3Me too . I'm always because .
Speaker 4I am like on a true crime kick right now . Me too , I'm always I am like . But is true crime ? Is it always murder ?
Speaker 3Yeah , for me it's pretty much always murder , murder is the murder . She wrote I don't want to murder . It's very calming and soothing to me .
Speaker 2for some reason , there are multiple articles about how like psychopathic yeah .
Speaker 4Mine is definitely all true crime , but my top one is cult documentaries .
Speaker 3Oh True crime .
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 4But cult documentaries .
Speaker 2Do you have a new one or a recent one ? The last one was another one of the Ted ones .
Speaker 3Ted .
Speaker 2Bunny , no , I was thinking David , david Koresh , so the last one was Koresh um the Waco stuff yeah that was the last one that I watched .
Speaker 4I just re-watched um . I love NXIVM oh , that the vow was , so I know someone who worked on that .
Speaker 2she's fucking , and I met her here in Greenpoint .
Speaker 3I'm like man girl this is so embarrassing .
Speaker 4No , I just rewatched the Way Down on HBO which . I think is just one of the most . I just I am like , oh gosh , now I'm doing that thing where my mind just like like when you're in an interview , you know , and you're like you can't think of anything and you're like name like or ping pongs . Yeah , you're just like it's like you know name one time that you were challenged in a work and overcame it , and I'm just like what's work .
Speaker 3You're like I don't know . I don't even know , what that means .
Speaker 4Yeah , exactly I can count to 10 and smash , oh no I literally am having that moment right now because I'm just like , I just I just went through , I'm like , what other cult ones ?
Speaker 2are there crystal's ? A cat person ? Yeah so we don't judge her for that I'm an animal person .
Speaker 4I'm not a dog .
Speaker 3I love you haven't seen her with wilbur , they were like I know , but she has a cat , I do , I am a cat mom , I love and I also um , I was never a cat person , if you want to call it that before .
Speaker 4I had my cat before I adopted my beautiful baby kitty cat , my baby boy , my younger baby , boy who brings me so much joy .
Speaker 1I'm an animal person .
Speaker 3I had cats all through my 20s and 30s . Wilbur is my first dog .
Speaker 2I have other people's cats , just like I don't have children .
Speaker 3I have other people's cats what's your personal pleasure dissing cat people ? I'm just kidding . I'm just kidding alright who's had a tequila .
Speaker 2No , yeah , I didn't dislocate , but I pulled my right trap by trying to have the perfect snuggle where I was propping my head snuggling my dog , and then angled just so to watch netflix . And I watch things that are about complicated relationships and mother-daughter things and I just like make myself feel like worse about myself but also .
Speaker 2I know , I know . But then I like snuggle my dog and then I watch Love Island UK and then I feel stupid for it and then I still like it , but then I want to watch it and then I think of it as an anthropologist , where I'm picking up , you know , lingo and social cues that would make me be able to date as a 22-year-old in the UK .
Speaker 3Yeah , I know right , it's pretty wild .
Speaker 2Anywho , all right , one more , one more .
Speaker 3Okay , randy , one more , one more Okay .
Speaker 2R . Okay , we're going to do one more , one more Rando Pick . Oh God , this is a big one .
Speaker 1It says fuck oh boy it says fuck in it .
Speaker 2I told you , I got to pee though . Oh .
Speaker 3What'd you do ?
Speaker 2You should have ended it on the last one , I know , but I Do . You think there's any truth in the lines ? They fuck you up , your mom and dad ? They may not mean to , but they do , yes yes , yes . I can't do something , but I think we all do . And also I've chosen not to have children , not because of that , but like a little bit .
Speaker 3I don't know .
Speaker 2I don't know .
Speaker 3I don't know , I'm gonna walk away from this one .
Speaker 4I mean that question that question is like it feels like a trick question Because even when you I'm going to get in so much trouble for saying this Because I have such strong opinions , especially about like overbearing and helicopter parents , like I have like really strong parents , like I'm just like , like , like I don't know I , even when you have like a quote-unquote healthy relationship with your , like like it seems healthy , I I always am like I don't know if it's because of my relationship with my , my lack of relationship with my parents I'm always like , but like they were anti helicopter .
Speaker 4Yeah , that we're just like , like , like , not there .
Speaker 2Um literally just not here .
Speaker 4But I'm just like what if you didn't pay your daughter's cell phone bill this month ? You know like kind of thing like those kind of like cause like cause , like she's 36 and like she should maybe pay it herself you know , kind of thing Like . I get that kind of like and I know that that's like a me thing and not like a , so I just I feel like I get so like . I feel like it's a trick question , because the answer is always yes .
Speaker 2Yeah , relationship with anyone . They're going to influence you , but especially when they're teaching you everything for better , for worse you're going to learn things that worked or didn't work for them , or things that they're still processing and still working out , and it's a lifelong process , like we're never finished . We're always works in progress and it changes . And it changes with every relationship and it changes with every year and it changes with pandemics and it changes with , like , our health and like all this shit . Give you perhaps neuroses that wouldn't be yours if you had different parents , but then you wouldn't have the skill set and the joys if they were different , and so I just yeah , no comment you're like I'm not even gonna go there , I should have probably not gone there , but I did , I know , I know no , I guess I just for me .
Speaker 4I think it's like you just gotta stop parenting at some point , and I don't know yeah .
Speaker 2Do you think , though , for you , crystal , that now you just revealed that they were not helicopter parents , that maybe you feel now , as an adult , a sense of pride of being independent and having gotten yourself to where you are , that there's maybe one level of judgment jealousy that other people have what you didn't experience , and while you are proud of where you are and what you have , that there's a level of well fuck there's absolutely resentment , for sure , there is a level of like .
Speaker 4I think there's a level of what there's definitely like , I , I have the most , I , I , I straddled this probably my whole life because , like I , even like in high school , I'm like oh yeah , just please give your daughter a brand new car . Um , that's , that makes perfect sense .
Speaker 4Um you know , uh , uh , those kinds of things definitely . Uh , I , I , I that that that definitely messes with your head , especially as a young , young , young person . But I've had those like oh well , I don't , I can just move to New York , because I've had that Like people literally were like your parents , let you do that . And I'm like what are you talking ?
Speaker 3about they didn't have a choice . I'm like what do you mean ? Like what ?
Speaker 4parents are you referring to ? And ? I have a lot of resentment about that too . Like stop putting this like weight on . Like the fact that like parents mean something , the same thing to everybody , because they just don't . So like I think there's like this , like sort of like I have to . Like they get the benefit of the doubt as parents , which is like Because the default norm is as a default norm kind of thing , yeah , which is a little bit .
Speaker 4It's like a as a sort of like . That's just like a kind of yeah , um , so there is that . But I and I have had that sort of moment of like okay , this is , I'm grateful that like I didn't have to like have any grief of that sort of like , I'm gonna just do what I want to do . But then there is that like , okay , well , if I did want to , if I did need help with you , you know , rent or whatever you know and I could have , it would have been nice to have that like fallback or that person you know , and like maybe , but be and then .
Speaker 4But then I also have that like , and this is such a me thing , but like , I also have that kind of like , if you didn't do that for your kid all the time they would , they might figure it out you know what I mean like exactly , and it's like so , that's sort of like it's like it's like there's like a three-part system to this kind of like situation where it's like , yes , it would have been nice to have it , but because I didn't have it I had to figure it out , um and , and then it's like I don't know like I would have . I've had friends complain about , like you know , oh , like I , you know my , my family used all our data . You know my brother used all my date , our family data this month and I'm like , well , just go get off your family yeah .
Speaker 4Cell phone , get a fucking phone , yeah , so like those kinds of where I'm like I don't have like I like , so it's just like those kinds of things . They all come to a head in a weird way where I'm like this doesn't , this doesn't add up in my brain anymore so I'm like there .
Speaker 4So it's like they're like I feel like so , like when questions like that come up , I'm like I don't know , like they're like parenting , like I don't know my parents didn't do it right , like I am totally not okay in a lot of ways , but , um , there's like , you know , I mean I'm also , you know , spent probably too much time drinking , but like there's definitely something to be said about like the , the quote-unquote , like parents that took care , that did it right , that yeah , that were good parents that are like I'm just like , if you .
Speaker 4Anyways , now I'm gonna stop , because now I'm rambling .
Speaker 2I think you're doing great so I think that you should be . Yeah , I think I look at you as a place of pride . It was like that you didn't necessarily have these other cushions or guidance that quote unquote , like traditional is , and you know , I think that we all have complicated relationships no matter what , oh for sure .
Speaker 2Like there's the storybook version and then there's reality . So I think that you're doing a great job towing the line of of being independent , proud and having created things for yourself , whether it is in spite of or in response to , or because of your upbringing and I should clarify , because I feel like I'm coming off as like completely arrogant in some ways- and I should I should say I do empathize and I do understand that the that it is the complicated relationship and that it's not easy to not if you can do like I would never pretend to understand that what it feels like to be a parent and give your not like if you can give your kid what they need , right .
Speaker 1Why wouldn't you ? Yeah , right , and because I didn't have that .
Speaker 4I understand like I . I can't , you know , I , I can't pretend to know what that would feel like or what that looks like , or you know , so I , I , I can empathize for that . I think , just from my perspective . I'm like they'll figure it out if you let them like or if you did your job , they'll figure it out , or they will need to figure it out one day , because you won't be here forever right , exactly , exactly um , anyways but I don't want to .
Speaker 4I don't want to pretend that I understand what it's like to be a parent because I have a cat yeah same , I have a dog , the cat does not listen to me at all have .
Speaker 3I I can't remember on this podcast how I told my favorite antidote , though , of the , the mother night one did I ever tell that wait too much ?
Speaker 3Vonnegut um , yeah , yeah , okay I don't know why , but just that question just reminded me of that moment of sitting at my parents house and my , my father , who's like obsessed with collecting books , completely off the subject , it just the parent thing just brought it up but my mother coming down and I'm drinking tea with my father and my mother comes down . She's like chuck , chuck , there's four copies of mother night upstairs , four copies . And he just puts his tea down calmly and goes susan , it's vonnegut you just buy vonnegut .
Speaker 3And that was my upbringing to a T and I love it . Fuck me up , but fucking Vonnegut's pretty good that's not wrong . I wanted to end it on that person .
Speaker 2I think it's appropriate a little nod to Chuck . I gotta pee . I have to pee as well . I also should pee .
Speaker 3I should always pee to chuck . Yeah , a little hug to chuck . I gotta pee . I have to pee as well . I also should pee . Yeah , I should always pee .
Speaker 1Do you ever have ?
Speaker 4that feeling even like if you see a toilet anytime you see a toilet even if you're on TV , you have to not be able to pee .
Speaker 2Yeah , if I know I'm going somewhere , I'm like let me squeeze one out just before . You should always go to the bathroom before you leave .
Speaker 4That's our PSA . Take care of your bladders pee after
Speaker 3sex pee when you have to pee , don't hold it if you don't need to , unless you're recording a podcast and then you're like , okay , with no reason .
Speaker 2Thanks , crystal thank you guys for having me bye .
