How To Renovate

Interview Episode With Laura Jane Clark - The Importance Of Exploring Your Own Home Layout

• Tash South • Season 1

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Warning! This episode contains a few instances of swearing!

In this, our very first interview episode on the podcast, I sit down with TV’s Laura Jane Clark, Architect, Author and presenter on TV shows like Ugly House to Lovely House, George Clarke's Amazing Spaces, Shed of the Year, and of course – the popular Your Home Made Perfect.

I was honoured to have Laura on as my first guest, she is so personable and was great fun to interview. In this episode, we chat about how Laura found architecture, the importance of exploring your own home layout before starting a reno, our shared mission to democratise great home design, and what to do if you’re a woman suddenly in charge on a building site!

Laura also talks about what it was like being on the popular home renovation show, Your Home Made Perfect, one of my favourite home reno shows (and I’ve seen MANY! 😂 )

Follow Laura:
Website: lamparchitects.co.uk
Instagram: laurajaneclark_
Book: The Handbook Of Home Design
YouTube: The Home Architect Laura Jane Clark

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Hi I'm your host, Tash South I'm an Interior Designer and Renovation Consultant.
Each episode of How To Renovate is short, but brimming with practical advice to help you manage your renovation project with confidence and success.

Grab some more renovation advice & free resources and become part of the South Place Studio Renovation Community at
https://www.southplacestudio.com/freebies

Everything I teach about renovation falls within my Five Pillar Process for A Successful Renovation, to learn more about the process, head to
https://www.southplacestudio.com/pillars


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Speaker 1:

Hello, hello, and welcome back to how to Renovate. In this episode I will be interviewing TV's Laura Jane Clark. Laura has kindly agreed to come on and talk to us about so many important things when you're renovating. Laura Jane Clark is an architect. She is the founder of Lamp Architects. She is an author of the Handbook of Home Design a brilliant book. Go check it out. She is the presenter on TV shows like Ugly House to Lovely House, george Clark's Amazing Spaces and Shed of the Year and, of course, my favourite, your Home Made Perfect.

Speaker 1:

I remember watching the show once with my daughter and Laura was wearing an amazing yellow outfit and my daughter said, oh my gosh, she looks just like sunshine. And Laura is really like sunshine. She's a pleasure to interview funny, personable and down to earth and in this interview we chat about how Laura found architecture, the importance of exploring your own home layout yourself, our shared mission to democratize home design and what to do if you're a woman suddenly in charge on a building site once you started to do a renovation. Now we will be having other guests come on to the podcast from now on, so do follow us on the socials, especially on Instagram at South Place Studio, and I will be showing who will be coming on next. So go and give us a follow. If you have any questions for our upcoming guests, pop them in the comments or send me a DM, or even send us an email, and we will try to include your questions into our upcoming interviews. You can find more information in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

Let's dive in. Welcome welcome, laura Jane Clark, to the how to Renovate podcast. I am so honoured to have you as our very, very first guest on the podcast. So welcome, thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute pleasure. Okay, so I think we have this kind of shared mission to democratise design and kind of bring um, bring good home design to all and to inspire people to kind of approach their own renovations with um, with kind of knowledge and confidence, um, for that best result. So, um, I'm so happy to have you on the podcast so we can talk a bit more about that. But first, I think let's if you can tell us a bit about you, a bit more about you, about your family, about, um, your childhood, how you found architecture.

Speaker 2:

I think that'd be a really great place to start but yeah, of course, no, it's a huge passion of mine and I think, um, I kind of fell into architecture in a way. Um, I wanted to be a doctor, um, I wanted to be a surgeon, like my dad and, um, I grew up in North Wales. Um, I was born in Scotland but grew up in North Wales, um, so I'm kind of a mix of both, even though I sound English, which is very depressing no offense, um to all the English people out there um, I, so I always wanted to be a surgeon and, um, my, I did my A-levels to be a surgeon and my work experience I did in the hospital that my dad worked in and it was kind of full on. But I kind of realised I went to Glasgow for my 16th birthday I think 15th or 16th birthday and I went to see a Macintosh Charles Ray Macintosh exhibition 15th or 16th birthday and I went to see a Macintosh Charles Ray Macintosh exhibition and I remember looking over these sketchbooks, sketch books and seeing the way he kind of drew the sky over some of his drawings for a house of an art lover and it was the sky and I was like, oh my god, this is what I want to do. This is, this is this is me. It was just the weirdest thing and so obviously quite a lot of inspiration to go from a kind of yeah, sensible job in inverted commas to a kind of more art-based job.

Speaker 2:

We didn't know any architects, didn't have any architects in the family, but I didn't actually get the a-levels to do medicine anyway, so it was quite lucky I changed um, but I so yeah. So it was this kind of huge shift, um, and I thought, right, well, how am I gonna do this? So I went to real library and got the yellow pages out, um for for London architect practices and I wrote to 10 architects practices, including Zara Hadid, um, and said, can I have some work experience please? So, um, two of them wrote back. Zara was not one of them, um, and so I went down for a week and I spent a couple of days with Guy Greenfield and a couple of days, um, in another practice. And then I went back over the summer to Crawford and Gray. This other practice lived in their house in Notting Hill.

Speaker 2:

When you know war. It was just like mind-blowing for a kind of 17 year old yeah, to be in, like Holland Park and everything. It was absolutely fantastic, yeah. And then they lent me his wife's clothes so I looked like a proper office worker and it was. I was just like I am living the dream, um, and and then went to university.

Speaker 2:

To start, I mean, I literally got in by the skin of my teeth to Glasgow University, so that was very interesting. So, yeah, it was a kind of baptism of fire really, because it was literally a change from medicine to architecture in a matter of kind of months and I just was so out of my depth. So I got to uni surrounded by people who either parents were architects or they had lots of kind of money behind them, so kind of making models and doing pinups and things. I was, you know, not necessarily doing that on kind of scraps of paper, but it was very kind of different. My models were very different to a lot of you know. We had a kind of a group of us and we would like you know that typical going into bins and getting all bits of material and stuff to make these, um, to make these models, um.

Speaker 2:

So and I just didn't get it, I just didn't understand, and the best report I had in three years in the Glasgow School of Architecture was she's not without ideas. It was the most, and I was like, oh, that's good, isn't it? Honestly, it was awful, I just didn't get it. I spent most of my time crying, um, but yeah, it was. I you know what it was really.

Speaker 2:

And then I went to Liverpool to finish my uh, last few years, but I used to do tours of the Macintosh building, so I was a tour guide there and I totally fell in love with Macintosh, not because of his, you know, kind of typical stuff, but because he was a huge lover of women and his wife was an incredible artist and he really promoted his wife, um, margaret, and weirdly, her artwork and her designs have basically been enveloped by Charles McIntosh. So it's kind of I do love that side and you're probably the same. You know, you kind of all these incredible men, designers and actually look into them, and there was like a woman collaborator or there was, you know, and it's it's so kind of important.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, waffling a bit, but, um, that's okay, we love a waffle, um, but I I always loved the kind of the building side of it so I always did a lot of lego.

Speaker 2:

I always did like kind of bits around the house yeah, and kind of DIY, and I realized that I was going to be a kind of a young woman on an architecture site you know kind of building site or in in an architectural office, and had no building experience. So I lived in North Wales in the summer, um, so I went to the local house builder that just happened to be my mum's first boyfriend when they were 15 and that was very handy and I was like, can I come and work on site?

Speaker 2:

just, you know, be a laborer. So I was paid about £4.50 an hour. Um no, it must be more than that.

Speaker 1:

I'm not that old um, that'd be a bargain.

Speaker 2:

I know exactly this is like 1973 and I worked as a laborer. And what was amazing was, I think, because I was a bit of a novelty, obviously, studying architect and also a woman. Um, everyone would be like look, come, I'll show you how to plaster. Come here, I'll show you how to do rough casting. And I ended up doing so much.

Speaker 2:

You know I was riding a JCB around a you know tennis court at you know 18 dream. Yeah, no, totally, and I think it was. It was really informative. And so you know a couple of the builders. You know they've been on the trays forever and like roof builders and they tell me now, you always remember this when you're doing your drawing a brick's this size, a block's that size, I'm not cutting, you know, and it's just those little things. That kind of are always in my head when I'm designing and sometimes I'm like, well, sorry, you're gonna have to have that 300 mil, sorry, but you know, but most of the time I'm like thinking about how stuff is built rather than just kind of designing to my kind of whims exactly such Such good info to have, isn't it when you're designing?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, oh, that's brilliant. I love the story about how you changed and that report that you got. Of course, we can't do this interview without talking about those Crystal Palace toilets, interview without talking about those Crystal Palace toilets. So I think the first I heard of you was when I saw the renovation of the the public loo into a home on Amazing Spaces. I think it was yes, and so I just kind of became a bit obsessed with kind of following you from then on, because that, I have to say, inspired me and my husband to find a plot of land and build our house. So tell us a bit more about the toilets, how you found them and kind of how it came to be.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, well, I was working for Guy Greenfield so he was one of the guys that I did a couple of days work experience field. So he was one of the guys that I did a couple of days work experience and I wrote back to him when I was kind of finished uni and he just happened to have a big planning permission approved. So he was like, yep, we need all the hands we can get and, funnily enough, that's a lot of student architects uh, speak to me and they said how do you get a job? And I that's one. You know you go through the planning portal, you work out where you want to be, what kind of firm you want to be with, and see who's got planning recently approved, because they will always need extra help.

Speaker 1:

That's what I did.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I was working with him right from the very beginning. So he was an architect and a developer and he was always saying to me look, you know, find somewhere to do work, find you. You know, there's no money in architecture particularly, but there is, you know, profit in development. So that was always kind of in the back of my mind. But I think my kind of budget and his budget is slightly different. Um, so when?

Speaker 2:

So I always had my kind of eye out for something and I was living with my boyfriend at the time in Hearn Hill so I kind of knew Crystal Palace and Sydenham and Penge and all that lot and it was pretty. You know, it's not like the Crystal Palace we know and love today. It was pretty rough and I remember kind of wandering around. There's a wonderful second secondhand shop, a vintage shop, uh, run by uh andy, called bambinos, so we used to go there all the time. It's still there and he's unchanged. It's fabulous. Um, and I remember walking past these toilets I just feel like you know they were, they were painted brown, they're covered in graffiti, but you could see the skylights that you know the pavement lights on, yeah, those kind of glass brick type.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I was like these are huge, these are actually really big space under this pavement and they were all broken, but, um, so I kind of got slightly obsessed with them, um, and it took quite a long time. Now I'm talking like seven years for the whole process. Wow, yeah, and bear it. I think I could have made it a little bit quicker, but obviously I was really really green, no money, and I was like so I I found the council, but they're in like a like corners of different council so that nobody really knew who owned them. Um, and then eventually kind of persuaded the uh council to let me see them.

Speaker 2:

Um, and mike, who I'm still friends with, um, the janitor from from uh bromley, sorry from so that came down and he had loads of keys and a crowbar and we were like, let's just use a crowbar, so crowbared our way in and, um, and they'd not been touched since like 1986, I think they were closed and we went down and it was pitch black and there was bits of light coming through the broken skylights and, um, and there was still a cup of tea left on the wee table that you know was obviously like dried out.

Speaker 2:

You just got a really it was like a time capsule but because the skylights were broken and there's like chicken shops and you know takeaways and stuff.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

It was rancid. So there was chicken birds everywhere. It was like gross. But the height of it, you know it was really high. They were like nearly 3.5 meter high ceilings and they had the Art deco urinals. It was just.

Speaker 2:

There was something really special about the space yes so that kind of kick-started my aura, you know, yes, um, and I went through lots of different kind of ways of designing them and kind of thinking about how I was going to do, and my original thought was maybe a little kind of independent cinema or art space or kind of bar. So I had loads of different designs, loads of different names and it was funny, if it's, when the smoking ban came in and so I was like, right, well, I'll need somewhere for the you know occupants, for the people, the customers to smoke.

Speaker 2:

So I kind of thought, well, actually the bottom bit can be this little into this external courtyard, which would double up as a fire escape, absolutely brilliant. And then I suddenly realized I was like, actually, if I've got a little garden here and a fire escape, I could live here. And so the council were almost on the verge of selling to them, telling selling them to me, um, for you know a kind of bar. And then I was like I'd like to live in them. And they're like right, we think you're slightly crazy. So then that took another kind of three or four years. Oh, wow, and yeah.

Speaker 1:

And so the guy the head that's just kind of going back and forth with planning, trying to convince them that no planning was actually was fairly straightforward.

Speaker 2:

It was literally trying for them to sell me because it was so it was before councils had lists of assets that they were trying to sell. So it was kind of back 2007. We started the negotiation properly, um, and the main council guy left as well. So, um, he was like really really encouraging, thought it was a brilliant idea. And then he left and this other guy like literally hated my guts oh no, I'm not gonna say his name, all these names are like extra in my mind and um, so, yeah, and I, oh just the literally smashing my head against a brick wall.

Speaker 2:

And then my final attempt was I went in to see the Lambeth housing man and this guy who's in charge of asset and I went in all these drawings and like really early kind of visuals that I'd done and I was like this is what it's going to be and, you know, went on about brownfield site and micro regeneration and blah, blah, blah, blah. And the housing guy, mike, told his name, said his name, like they're like shaking his head at me, and this housing guy was like this is amazing, mike, we love this, isn't this brilliant? And the mic was like yeah, yeah, yeah that was great and I got it Brilliant.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was just. You know what it's like it's perseverance, and then it's finding the right person with the right energy that can see it.

Speaker 1:

See your vision and agree with it. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And then planning was fairly straightforward, building control was fairly straightforward. Building control was fairly straightforward, I think, because I had so much design, thought, you know, literally seven years thinking about it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that is perseverance, my goodness. But yeah, I mean, it was such a cool project. I love watching that. Um. So let's go back to um kind home design. So tell us why you're so passionate you know, especially on your homemade perfect about democratizing good home design. And where does that fire come from? Where does that passion come from?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think maybe thinking about it and it's actually just kind of crossed my mind now, I think, just talking about uni and stuff, I'm feeling quite inferior and also, being a chartered architect, riba member, whenever I go to Portland Place, which is the head of RIBA, I always feel slightly out of place and really look down on as a house designer, as extensions, and one of the first things I was told my first lecture in Glasgow was you know, most of you will be designing house extensions and bathroom extensions and that's basically failure for an architect.

Speaker 2:

I was like, oh, and that has way to start. Yeah, and like my whole career and I think you know I did lots of tv before, I did ugly, house and shed of the year and obviously amazing spaces, so I always had this kind of niche of these like interesting wee thing, you know, um, but I'd always done home design. You know I started with architect your home in 2008, um, doing home design, and again, I always felt a bit like, and architect friends who were kind of doing big, big things were like, oh, you do extensions, great, you know, talk to me.

Speaker 2:

And it really wasn't, until your Home Made Perfect came out and obviously lockdown happened at the same time and it was like this perfect storm of people looking at their houses going, oh shit, you know, our housing stock is awful. Why don't I have a skylight there? Why don't I have a door there? Why can't I see my kids in the garden? Why can't I have to? Why do I have to turn the light on every time I go to the kitchen, exactly, and the show kind of explaining design and talking about design, and I think it was the first time that I was like, oh, I'm really quite good at this because I've made it my passion, you know, and it really kind of spurred on that, you know, real kind of like everyone deserves good design, you know, and a 35 grand reconfiguration and a, you know, is more important than a 350 grand, you know, and a 35 grand reconfiguration and a, you know, is more important than a 350 grand, you know, money is no object and and it's it's really kind of fueled that yeah, that's so true.

Speaker 1:

Just want to kind of deliver good results for whatever budget client might have. Yes, that's great. We I also think we have a shared obsession for home layouts and utility rooms. Yes, I mean those all important floor plans. I could just get lost in a floor plan for days and I always say I find it like Tetris. I will sit there for days and kind of move things around and spend hours trying to find the best layout and sometimes when you're working on one layout, another one kind of presents itself and then I'll kind of finish that one and start another one showing that option. That kind of came to mind. So one thing always leads to another. So please tell us, why do you love utility rooms so much? Have you got any go to kind of advice when kind of redesigning your home's floor plan or the layout?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think so I'm similar. I do initial consultations now and I've again been doing those since my time with Architect your Home and I've taken that kind of model on for my own stuff. And the amount of homeowners I mean 90% if they've had some dealings with an architectural technician or an architect or a designer before they basically say they asked us what we wanted and they drew that up and there was no input from them whatsoever. And I think there's no profit in small scale architectural. You know stuff and you have to do a lot to get you know, you know to make a decent wage, so there's just no glamour in it. And you know, people have said to me recently oh, I reached out to an architect and they said they don't look at anything under 350,000. And I was like, yeah, and so when I've always loved, like you, you know that kind of the puzzle of a layout and I do consultations online now. So I used to go to people's homes but actually it's kind of I can be anywhere and as long as I've got the plan in front of me, I can see it in 3D and I'm kind of like working it out and I don't actually need to be in the space um, which is very handy, um, and doing those initial consultations over lockdown, and in my office. And you know, obviously I have their plans and their photographs and talk to them a lot as well.

Speaker 2:

But I kind of realize I have a real clear methodology and I've never done two layouts the same, because you know it's always slightly different. You know where the sun comes, if it's kind of wind. You know it's all different. You know where they've got lots of family members, where they've got small family. Everything's always different. But I do have a methodology and that's where I kind of started going. I could kind of write a book or write some webinars to start kind of not teaching because I hate that word, because it's like oh, but kind of imparting this design methodology. That would then help people see, homeowners see, and kind of start being able to figure out the design themselves. And it's it's not rocket science, but I think it's all about, like you say, you're living in it.

Speaker 2:

You know, yes, you turn the plan. So my top tip would be turn the plan to the way you're walking through the house. Do a little north point so you can see where the north is, where the south is and how the path of the sun comes. And as soon as you do those two things, you're like ah right, you can start seeing where the sun will come. You can start kind of seeing what you see as you walk through the house. So that is super, super important.

Speaker 2:

And you just imagine getting up in the middle of night and getting a glass of water. Imagine you're coming in, you've got loads of bags and like where do you put everything? Imagine entertaining, or imagine being on your own there on a lovely sunny day. Where do you want to sit? How do you want to feel? So it's kind of it's it's just thinking about your life within this space, and utility rooms are key to that. Yes, so the engine house, and you know it's nice to have really simple design and I love straight lines of kind of lining everything up and using as much of the existing layout as you can to minimize huge amounts of cost. Um, and that can all be spoiled if you've got a washing machine in the kitchen or you've got to dry your clothes, you know, at the front window. So having a utility space, having a dehumidifier, which I like that's my middle name um, it's, you know, it's like absolute key and I'm also really, really messy.

Speaker 1:

So if I didn't have a utility room then it would just be a disaster it is that place just to kind of hide the kind of real life exactly and just made in Chelsea on and I'm like this is me yeah, I do love, I do love a utility room and, yes, I think it's totally about kind of getting getting people, getting the clients to kind of really inspect their own lives so closely, about how they want to use the space, how they want to enjoy the space, how they want to move around and entertain, as you say. So, yeah, that's great. Thanks for those. It's just um really good tips there. And then you briefly mentioned your recent book, which I think is excellent, by the way. Um, so the handbook of home design. Um, it really dives deep into kind of helping us understand our homes, and I think it gives readers kind of the tools to start to shape their own homes as well, like we've just been talking about. Um, so tell us, why did you write this book?

Speaker 2:

so, um, so in lockdown, doing these kind of things and like realizing I had this methodology and perhaps, like you know, it's actually quite a simple process and I feel that architecture and design is one of those things that's kind of quite cloak and dagger. And you know, we've spoken about this and in our kind of groups of designers, I think, maybe even maybe lockdown was a kind of the, the catalyst for it, but it always felt you kind of really pitted against each other rather than a kind of a community and because you're kind of competing for work and blah, blah, blah, and I just hate that, you know. And and again, it kind of goes back to that university, you know, like everybody's like hiding their drawing board from everyone else.

Speaker 2:

It's like oh, give me a break which didn't actually happen in Glasgow, to be fair, more in Liverpool, um. But it's like you know, you're kind of holding back knowledge and whatever, like what, for you know you're never going to be able to monetize it in a way that you know it, just there's no reason for it. So I think writing the book um was.

Speaker 2:

There's definitely no money in writing books, um but I but the amount of times I'm stopped in the street and people are like, oh, you're the architect. I'm like, oh, you must get sick of being, you were wrecking that. I'm like I love it, I absolutely love it. Or somebody will say, oh, I persuaded my builder to put a velux window in, or I put this, or I lowered my sill. Here I've got that view as I walk through the hall and you know how happy that makes me. It's like insane and it's not kind of like. Oh yeah, I saw people tell me I'm just like having a bit of influence on people's home designs to make their life a bit easier and a bit more pleasant.

Speaker 1:

Just yeah, it's like yeah, lovely, it is satisfying work, isn't it? I do love it. Um, I was so interested when this book came out because so, when I got it, I went through the whole book and usually one of the first questions um clients ask me, um, when I go and do the consultations or whatever, is do I need an architect or where do I even start? So I found it so interesting that in your book, even as an architect, you were suggesting that renovators start perhaps not by hiring an architect straight away, but by kind of doing lots of their own drawing, doing lots of their own research into their own lives and how they want to live in their homes, and learning how to draw and investigate their own floor plans, which is actually exactly my advice as well. In this upcoming renovation course I'm writing so it's a renovation, an online renovation course, but why do you think it's so important that people do that?

Speaker 2:

I think because not many architects and designers specialize in home design, you know, and day-to-day extensions and you know, obviously the books you. It's an investment in time and I totally understand that some people don't have that. But if people come into me saying, oh yeah, my architect was great, they gave me loads of ideas, it was brilliant, but I've just never heard that, I've literally never heard those words out of anybody and so I, yeah, and I think it's more for people doing smaller extensions and any kind of form of knowledge or understanding will greatly enhance anything that you want to do.

Speaker 2:

And you know the book goes into budgets and how to think about budget. So it's not a, it's not a kind of floor plan. You know, do this or that, but you know it's like how you actually get to that point. But then also what, what kind of symbols are on drawings and what you know those kind of words that builders say or architects say, and I think there's this kind of tendency for builders to you know they do it to me and I'm like you know I've been here before don't even try it. You know this kind of like trying to, yeah, say long words and try and confuse you and be like all right, yeah, yeah yeah, you know, using the jargon and hoping you'll just see so they can have the easier way to do things perhaps yeah, and I think it's important to give people that kind of knowledge and power.

Speaker 2:

So you know, people I've had. They've gone all the way to planning permission and they're not happy with their drawings because they're just like we didn't know how to say. That's not right. We didn't know, we didn't know what we wanted. So they were like, well, this is the best you're gonna get, you know, and and it actually I'm like I should get slightly emotional because it's so you know, it's so important it's, it is important and it's upsetting.

Speaker 1:

I've had, you know, I've gone in to see clients before where they've got to a stage where they've spent between, I think, five and ten thousand pounds with an architect and they still weren't happy, the drawings in front of them, and then that's a posh architect I don't even charge that much, I know, and that's a posh architect it was quite a big home actually and then kind of called me in to have a look at them because they just kind of knew they weren't right, but they weren't sure why. But they, I think it's because they hadn't explored how they wanted to use the space and how they wanted to live and you and make them the best of the space really. And, like you said, the architect had just put a box on the back of the house.

Speaker 2:

So, um, I've definitely, maybe given it to the office junior to draw up where there's no kind of necessarily expertise or love or passion. So, and hopefully there will be a new generation of you know, and you don't need to be a fully qualified architect. You know you can be an architectural designer, you can do whatever you know. Yes, but there needs to be a kind of a bit of a revolution in home design to make things better for people.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's, let's work on that. Yes, we're working on it. Let's work on that. Yes, we're working on it.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 1:

So I've read in my research that for this interview they used to physically work on site, like you said when you volunteered to be a labourer when you were studying architecture.

Speaker 1:

But I also know from following you on Instagram that you kind of physically do a lot of work at your Glasgow home as well and you're very hands-on.

Speaker 1:

And I find I'm the same for my own renovations obviously not for my clients renovations but when I'm doing my own renovations I love to go on site and get hands-on and start doing stuff, which means that I generally feel quite comfortable on a building site. But I have to say, working in the construction industry as a woman definitely has its challenges and I have had a couple of very tricky situations to deal with before, sometimes with contractors or suppliers being kind of disrespectful on site, especially in front of other kind of colleagues or particularly male colleagues. So I would love to know can you tell us a bit about your experiences of this as a woman working on site? And also, do you have any advice for any women listening or watching who will suddenly find themselves in charge on a building site when carrying out their own renovation, about how then they can maybe deal with a similar kind of similar situation, should it arise.

Speaker 2:

So I've got quite a lot to say about this okay, but um, I I think I've been quite lucky um that I've not had many issues on building sites. I've had issues, you know, with the, but not on building sites. And I've always done martial arts and boxing and stuff since I was like 14, 15. So I started in real in this really scuzzy boxing club and it was amazing Fighting with like scaffolders and roofers and all this kind of stuff. So I've always been quite not aggressive but I've always been quite kind of physically confident.

Speaker 2:

Um, and I think I think anyone in any line of work, whether it's a big old roofer or a planner, can sense, just like you can sense, if somebody's talking bullshit and I think not respecting trades, I think is really really tricky and I I think can kind of cause issues and then then obviously not respecting you. So if you and I'm not saying you, as you know, I mean I always found my granddad told me if you don't know something, you say I I don't know something, you say I don't know. What do you mean by that? I don't understand what you're talking about, because they'll respect the fact that you're not a bullshitter. So I would say you look somebody straight in the eye, you smile and you know, if you don't understand something you just ask and just give them the respect and they will. Then should give you the respect and I'm really sorry to hear that you've had those issues. Um, so, yeah, I, I think it's again, it's that kind of knowledge, and a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Is that, is that the phrase? You know? And if you kind of go thinking you know absolutely everything, yeah, they'll smell that off you. I want to say they, I mean kind of old builders that know everything.

Speaker 2:

And you know, and I have builders saying like, oh, I'm, you know, I've done that many houses, I'm practically an architect, and you're like, yeah, I can't, and so and I have, you know, actually, the one of the last bills of your home made perfect. I had probably the most difficult relationship with a builder I've ever had and yeah, and I'm like you know, they were telling me to cough back to scotland and all this stuff. And I was like, yeah, and they deliberately tried to sabotage it, deliberately tried to sabotage the build. Wow, yeah, and I've never experienced anything like it.

Speaker 2:

So, but that wasn't necessarily being a woman or maybe that had something to do with it, but my usual strategy of just being dead straight down the line, like you know, laughing everything off I mean, I swear like a trooper anyway, but it just didn't work, didn't work at all, and we ended up having to kick them off and get another builder in to finish the job, and that was that one with that big, lovely, long corridor oh yeah, oh gosh, it got to that point, oh yes it was painful, um, but yeah, I think it's.

Speaker 2:

it's about respect and having a little bit of knowledge and you know, and just listening, listening and looking people in the eyes as part of the team.

Speaker 1:

You all want to have that same outcome of the project finishing as close to budget and as close to the time frame as possible. So I always try and tell my clients you know, think of yourself as part of the team, try and understand, be there to support or supply whatever you needed to keep things moving along. Um, like you say, ask when you don't know, or even if they don't know, ask for a second opinion.

Speaker 1:

And you know, get, they get the information, but, um, like you say, sometimes, even though doing all of those things don't quite work and unfortunately you do have to get to a point where, um, you have to find alternatives which hopefully people can avoid but, um, I think all of those things, plus just trying to work as a team generally will will get you to a successful outcome yeah, and I think if you're, you know, if you're a young, you know, I've never had to, you know, have like heated arguments with builders but I've never had to tell anyone that they're being inappropriate, or to never speak to them like that.

Speaker 2:

I've never had to do that and you know it's easy to think or easy to say just tell them how it is, you know when you're, you know when you're kind of sitting in your office and you're like la la la and you're like you know, done it all, and then, but I can imagine not having that kind of experience, not having site experience and being a kind of young architect or young woman or you know, and maybe going with another designer, maybe going with another architect, maybe going with a colleague, just to start to kind of get that experience so you're not thrown in at the deep end. Yeah, I think would be helpful. So all my site visits when I worked for Guy he was always there and then it took, you know, it's a good kind of nine months, 12 months, and I was running the site. So you kind of it's not like I was starting a site visit when I was 22 and newly qualified.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I think that's important as well yes, definitely if you're, obviously if your architects are on site. But, um, I'm kind of I'm thinking about the client as well, because generally I find it is it is the woman who is on site kind of home, more trying to manage the team, trying to manage the contractor, trying to relay what she or the family wants from the home, whilst perhaps still not quite understanding the drawings or the whole process and.

Speaker 1:

I think sometimes that can be really overwhelming for for women particularly. But um, I think with you know, with information like this, with podcasts like this, with your book, I think if people kind of put in some time to kind of research and to learn and to just kind of be informed, they'll be in a bit of a better place to kind of manage when those things might come up yeah, and having you know when having an interior designer, having an architect, having a project manager not all those things, one or the other or all does help you.

Speaker 2:

Because, as an architect, I think a lot of architects, in their kind of horn rim glasses and kind of turtlenecks, think that they're like you know, you don't know how you live.

Speaker 2:

I know how you should live, not mentioning any architects in particular. Not mentioning any architects in particular, um, and and I think, well, I, as an architect, I feel that I am the voice and the, the design tool for the homeowner to get the best for them, you know, and yeah, it's about imparting ideas and thoughts and wonderfulness and all that kind of stuff, but at the end of the day, it's their house, it's their money, and if a homeowner is particularly uncomfortable being on site, then yeah, I you know, I'm the person that has the arguments with the builders or, you know, negotiates all that kind of stuff to a certain degree and and it is great seeing the confidence levels in some homeowners that we kind of like wouldn't spend any time on site whatsoever, and then at the end they're like, oh, this isn't this and like and I silicon the bathroom and you're like yes, it's kind of like wouldn't spend any time on site whatsoever. And then at the end they're like, oh, this, this and this. And like, oh no, I siliconed the bathroom.

Speaker 1:

And you're like yes, it's kind of been their backup and just kind of being their kind of wingman when they need it. Wingwoman and kind of fighting their corner, because that's why they hire us, right yeah?

Speaker 2:

Wing person with winged eyeliner.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, with winged eyeliner like that.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so a big part of this podcast is kind of what I the information I want to give homeowners about um their renovations, and the information I want to give them in my kind of upcoming renovation course as well.

Speaker 1:

It's it's about how to make the right hires for your project, kind of how to how to hire the correct people, people you get on with, for your, your team, to kind of bring your home, your dream home, to life, for your architect, your contractor, um for your, for your project. So you know you have to be able to work well with them, you have to be able to collaborate well with them, um, but sometimes they are kind of disputes or kind of general conflicts on site, which which is kind of similar to the last question. But I just wondered if they had any advice for listeners on kind of dealing with when disagreements might come up or this kind of general conflict on site should it arise. I just wonder if you had any kind of just kind of tips or ways of kind of diffusing that situation so things don't get too heated, so that the project kind of still stays on track and is successful yeah, I think getting to when it comes like that, there's obviously an issue at the beginning.

Speaker 2:

So I would say, rather than saying like, I'm going to focus on the start of the project, so when you're looking at contractors in particular, it's always so busy. You're getting prices in from everybody, you're having site visits and all this kind of stuff. And one thing that I always tell homeowners and I kind of drum it into them and most of them don't do it, but it's so important is to speak to their previous clients. Go and see their work, go and speak you know at least three of the previous clients to see what kind of relationship they had. Yes, because a builder is only as good as his last job and I think if you go, you don't really have a feeling you know with builders and that would be that's, I think, is absolutely critical. And it's one thing that just kind of gets lost. You spend an hour, phone a few people and if they're not willing to give you numbers, then alarm bells, um. And the other thing is contracts. So having um, it doesn't need to be a big fancy rba architectural contract, even for a small project, even you know the kind of 50 grand, 35 grand modeling, uh, remodeling, remodeling, uh, remodeling jobs. I was doing the the. All the drawings obviously would be finished and signed off by the client. But every single drawing would be signed by both the builder and the client and the spec, the written schedule of works, including things like all architraves, all you know, hardware. You'd have that all sorted out the beginning who's supplying what and every single page signed. So if there's a point that a builder goes well, I didn't know, I was putting that wall in there, um, because they're all from the southeast um, then the you know, you're saying well, actually we signed this thing here, all right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So not having that is very, very makes this situation really tricky. I mean, we had a problem here with the the house when we were renovating. We had, um, we had plasterers in and I was in london, so my husband, who is amazing, a mental health social worker but not a site worker, I mean he builds everything but not a kind of project manager. Um the plasterers, they kind of agreed a price but didn't write it down and I'm like, oh my god, kev, um, so anyway, they start taking the piss out of us and um kev would phone me up and he's like and I think I was filming the show at the time and he's like, oh, that they want more money for doing this room. And I, basically I came back and I saw them on. I was like, listen, and they were like, oh, really sorry, really sorry, yeah, and they did a couple of rooms for free for us. Oh, brilliant, so it's just.

Speaker 2:

But again, it's having that confidence and knowledge that I knew their price was rubbish and or their increase was rubbish, and like you know. So I think that is absolutely key and you can easily find out costs per square meter of things. So, um, you know, I'll often have quotes for jobs that range from 70,000, so so my the budget will be, say, 100, and I'll have budgets from 70 that I know will have to increase a bit kitchens or what kind of stuff to 250, and you're like, right, and I would say one of the key things to do. And then this is this is again kind of preventing the confrontation before it happens when you're looking at your design, you have your extended floor area and your internal floor area and you multiply how much you're extending by whatever. The going rate is where you are maybe two and a half grand, maybe three grand for a really good finish. Internally, maybe 1500, two grand, depending what kind of finish you want per square meter.

Speaker 2:

That is yeah per square meter and you'll have a rough idea then of what your budget should be. Roughly so you can. Sometimes builders will sometimes say what is your budget and you can say well, this is the cost per square meter that I'm working to and this is our kind of overall budget and I think clients are really worried about getting ripped off so they'll not say anything, just hope they'll come in lower and I think just having that kind of openness from the start I think really really helps, um, and then when it does happen again, it's having a wee bit of knowledge, it's kind of listening and um, I had to.

Speaker 2:

Oh jeez, I could tell you so many of these stories. I had one, one client, that sent me a bill for 17 000 pounds because she basically just forwarded the bill from the builder that she had, um, and he basically charged an extra 17 grand for noggings, which are basically the little bits of wood in between. Yes, that's, oh my god, and I was like, is he joking? And are you joking? So she's like, wait, obviously forgot to put them in the drawings. And then I kind of point, pointed out, or you know, but it says it in about a million places so, uh, she was like all right, okay, yeah so you know, and somebody you know, oh, we didn't charge for skirting boards.

Speaker 2:

Skirting boards would be another six grand more. And you're like what? Of course you meant, but unless you have it written down, yes, you, you know, I haven't got a leg to stand on exactly.

Speaker 1:

I think everything needs to be in that all-important kind of um document at the start, and you're right, that will avoid so many um disagreements and stand-ins down the line if you have all of that clearly laid out before you begin, before they even arrive on site and have lots of nice biscuits and make them lots of tea and don't stare at them when they're having a cigarette break or a coffee break, which I totally failed at my last project. I didn't buy one biscuit, I didn't leave.

Speaker 2:

That's this great, I know, I know I must apologize.

Speaker 1:

I will have to make it up with some sort of m&s voucher or something. I did not take them biscuits, so that was a massive faux pas. But, um, thank you so much for that. And of course, we cannot um have this interview without talking about your homemade, perfect um.

Speaker 1:

So so I grew up in South Africa, in Cape Town, and obviously there's a lot more space, there's a lot more light and the homes are generally kind of on large plots with space around them, and so it just felt different moving to London in terms of kind of the, the plots of the houses, the housing stock, the designs of the houses. So, um, I've had, I've moved around a lot, so I have quite a lot of experience of living in Victorian houses, kind of modern blocks of flats, edwardian houses or you know where they're broken up into masonettes and flats, and I find now designing bringing light into these properties has become an obsession of mine, because I just want to. I know what it feels like to live in a country, in a home where there's lots of light and warmth, and I think that's kind of an obsession of mine is bringing that into these properties when I'm designing. So and what I found really interesting on the show is how the two different architects had such different, or sometimes very different, interpretations of the same property, um, and I just found that so interesting to see. So, and of course, then given the home owners the opportunity to kind of view their houses in 3D before they even start started.

Speaker 1:

But, um, I just wondered what was it like for you working on the show and being involved in that show, because I think it really, as a nation, everyone became a bit obsessed with it. Whenever I go to see clients, it always gets mentioned. Um, before the interview today, I was, um walking my kids to school and I was walking back and I was saying I bumped into some friends. I was like I'm interviewing Laura Jane Clark today and they were like, oh my god. They were like so, um, I just want to know what was it like um working on the show?

Speaker 2:

um, it was amazing it was, it was great. It was really intense because we had um, because I wasn't kind of part of the inception of it, um, but Joff the producer, I'd kind of given up tv, I'd finished with, uh, channel four and did ugly house, a lovely house, and it wasn't great and I was like, do you know what this is me? I'm not doing tv anymore, um, and so Joff the producer phoned me, um, I think it was like six months before I picked up the phone, um, and eventually I was like okay, go on. Then.

Speaker 2:

Um, so told me about the concept of the show and I was just kind of drawn to this idea that you're kind of showing people design. So you're not just going what do you think about this? Or you know kind of just a couple of drawings. You can actually, through visualization, kind of say, well, what happens if we open this up? What happens, you know? And there's a real design focus to the show. So I was hard in um and we had 16 projects. It was going to be two, it was going to be one series and two episodes per two properties, per episode and I think quickly they realized that actually it was enough.

Speaker 2:

You know, one episode, one property per episode. So that's why the first two series are very, very similar. Um, so we yeah, just we had three months I think less than that to design and model through 16 properties, um I feel like I'm going just even talking about it.

Speaker 2:

Um, and that's intense kind of. Yeah, it was. And I, because I do these consultations, I do five hour consultations where I come up with different design ideas and kind of talk to clients. I'm quite fast at doing it. So I would kind of knock these designs out really happy with them and you know, not like not thinking about them, but like actually, you know, I'm just very quick at the way I do it. I'm just very quick at the way I do it.

Speaker 2:

Um, and uh, robert would like take a few weeks and then, you know, I was like you know, I was basically designing when I was on site there while he was doing his interviews, um, and we had this kind of analogy that I was like this little chicken going like popping out all these ideas and Robert would come in as like big golden eagle and just like I was like golden egg that he pulled up. Um, so it was, it was very interesting and it was really interesting working with Robert because he's so different to my everything. You know I was cutting my teeth on making money on 15 grand extensions and all this kind of stuff as a, you know, straight out of not straight out of uni, but when I set up on my own and he did a lot less but you know, slightly bigger projects and so you know, so didn't have that kind of the the background of huge amount of residential properties that I had right, and I think what was interesting is that that sometimes you'd notice that we'd have really similar concepts but they'd be turned 90 degrees or they'd be kind of mirror image. So it was really interesting kind of seeing all of that come together, um, and then obviously, then when they, yeah, and I again, as I was like this is what I'm gonna like not win any of these, you know, because I would see his and be like, oh my god, you know, some of this was absolutely beautiful and then when they started kind of making the decisions and I started getting the majority, or sometimes his would be chosen, but they weren't possible, and then they would kind of, you know, you, I'd kind of end up getting them.

Speaker 2:

That happened with like one or two. It really kind of was a bit odd and it kind of really ruined our relationship, which was really sad, um, but I think and again that was the thing that was like, oh, you know, it doesn't have to be this, yeah, it doesn't have to be visually stunning.

Speaker 1:

It needs to be practical as well.

Speaker 2:

It needs to work right, yeah exactly, and I think, and I'm kind of like I can't kind of quite, you know, without putting myself down or bigging myself up, you know it's kind of yeah, and I was like, oh, this, you know, this is so important. And I could see the difference in language between the homeowner and Robert and between me and the homeowner and that kind of relationship which had them in that kind of sense of understanding them and listening to them. And you know, watching back and seeing Robert and Angela and you know that kind of constant like, oh, she listened to the client, oh, she listened. You know, like, and and I think that was really brought home to me I was like, oh, actually, you know I could do this and that this is my passion and I and I love it.

Speaker 2:

And then, with the other architects were kind of opening the opening the show up to other architects, which is brilliant, and having that kind of you know like a bit more this person versus this person. And that was really exciting as well, and the whole concept was they would always have a female, uh, architect on on screen, which was brilliant, you know. Um, so, yeah, it was very exciting and, I think, brilliant for the homeowner seeing different ideas and seeing different approaches, and celebrating utility rooms. I mean, what's not that alone?

Speaker 1:

I mean, I had no idea you loved utility rooms so much, but I think everyone absolutely loves the show. It's just so different to anything else that had been on before and I have been obsessed with property shows for years, like for many years. I have watched all of them, even the daytime ones. I've, like I'm obsessed with property shows. I used to watch all of them and I absolutely love it.

Speaker 1:

And in our household don't tell any of the architects but you're our favorite we're always, we're always rooting for you and we're always, we're always saying, oh, she's definitely gonna win. She's getting busy till. Oh, she's definitely going to win. She's got a busy utility room, she's going to win. We're always rooting for you. I just think that you're so personable and you listen to the clients and your designs are beautiful but they also take into account real life. Your designs are beautiful, but they also take into account real life and they just kind of still maintain that sense of kind of excellent design that really does what design is meant to do, which is serve the homeowner, serve the person living in there, living in the home. So, yes, we love watching and thank you so much for being on the podcast today. It's just really been an honour chatting to you.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I have loved it. I'm sorry if I've waffled a little bit too much.

Speaker 1:

That is absolutely fine. We love, love a waffle. Do you want to tell the listeners and the watchers where they can find you, where they can buy your book or any other information that you might want to share with them?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, of course. So I am Laura Jane Clark, with a little cheeky underscore on Instagram, and Lamp Architects is my practice that I set up many years ago, so I've got lamparchitectscouk. It's not a very up-to-date website. I do need to fix that, but I do everything myself, including all my kind of well, my husband as well, doing all kind of webinar setups and everything, so some things fall by the wayside, as I'm sure you're. You know, similar because you do everything, yes, definitely um, and so I do have a YouTube channel.

Speaker 2:

I'm trying to basically uh produce, so I've done a couple um, it's a little kind of design. Short, so you know, stairs is obviously I'm kind of on my thing, so like, yes, where to put?

Speaker 1:

stairs and how to do that. We didn't talk about the stairs, yeah so that's what I'm trying to do.

Speaker 2:

So, again, you know, obviously I do my webinars, um, and my book you can find on Amazon or Waterstones, um, even in the RBA bookshop, which I find hilarious. Um, there you go. I know exactly, I still, I still need to get down and buy it and just be like loser. You think I am huh, um and yeah. So, yeah, I'm going to start putting together these, uh quick, you know, 60, 90 seconds and then a little bit longer on YouTube design, kind of little, kind of design insights, so kind of expanding on bits of the book, expanding on bits of my webinar.

Speaker 1:

Brilliant. Oh, thank you so much and I will link to all of those in the show notes. So, to the listeners, if you go to the show notes, you can find Laura on Instagram, on YouTube, and you can find her book as well. I'll link to all of those in the show notes. But thank you, laura, for joining us. Thank you for having me have a good weekend. I will, we hope, to have you on again soon. Brilliant, thank you. Bye.