Gost nove epizode GOVSI podkasta je Romano Prodi. Z voditeljico Natašo Čepar smo ga povabili k pogovoru ob praznovanju 20. obletnice vstopa Slovenije v Evropsko unijo, spregovorila pa sta tudi o odnosih med Slovenijo in Italijo in aktualnih dogodkih v svetovni politiki.
Romano Prodi (1939) je italijanski politik, dvakratni nekdanji predsednik italijanske vlade in nekdanji predsednik Evropske komisije v obdobju med letoma 1999 in 2004 – ravno v času slovenskih pogajanj za vstop v EU.
Med njegovim mandatom na čelu Evropske komisije se je EU intenzivno pripravljala na največjo širitev v njeni zgodovini in sprejetje nove Evropske ustave. Prodi je spodbujal povezovanja med članicami in krepitev vloge EU v mednarodnih zadevah. Med njegovim predsedovanjem so bili doseženi nekatere pomembni dogovori, kot je na primer sprejetje evra kot uradne denarne enote v državah območja evro. Prav tako se je trudil za izboljšanje gospodarske konkurenčnosti Evropske unije in je spodbujal socialno kohezijo med članicami.
Kot vsak politik je bil tudi Prodi deležen kritik in polemik, vendar je njegov mandat pustil precejšen pečat na nadaljnjem razvoju evropske integracije.
Tokratna epizoda je bila posneta 9. maja v Novi Gorici v sodelovanju z medijsko hišo Delo.
Vabljeni k poslušanju in gledanju.
[ENGLISH VERSION]
Romano Prodi: Nova Gorica and Gorizia as symbols of European unity
The guest of the new episode of the GOVSI podcast is Romano Prodi. We invited him to talk to host Nataša Čepar on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of Slovenia's accession to the EU. They also discussed relations between Slovenia and Italy and current events in world politics.
Romano Prodi (1939) is an Italian politician, a former two-time Prime Minister of Italy, and the former President of the European Commission from 1999 to 2004 – precisely during Slovenia's negotiations for EU accession. During his tenure at the helm of the European Commission, the European Union was actively preparing for its largest expansion in history and the adoption of a new European Constitution. Prodi encouraged integration among member states and strengthened the EU's role in international affairs. Some significant agreements were reached during his presidency, such as the adoption of the euro as the official currency in the euro area countries. He also worked to improve the European Union's economic competitiveness and promoted social cohesion among its members.
Like any politician, Prodi faced criticism and controversies, but his tenure left a significant mark on the further development of European integration.
This episode was recorded on May 9th in Nova Gorica in collaboration with the media company Delo.
You are invited to listen and watch.
Gost nove epizode GOVSI podkasta je Romano Prodi. Z voditeljico Natašo Čepar smo ga povabili k pogovoru ob praznovanju 20. obletnice vstopa Slovenije v Evropsko unijo, spregovorila pa sta tudi o odnosih med Slovenijo in Italijo in aktualnih dogodkih v svetovni politiki.
Romano Prodi (1939) je italijanski politik, dvakratni nekdanji predsednik italijanske vlade in nekdanji predsednik Evropske komisije v obdobju med letoma 1999 in 2004 – ravno v času slovenskih pogajanj za vstop v EU.
Med njegovim mandatom na čelu Evropske komisije se je EU intenzivno pripravljala na največjo širitev v njeni zgodovini in sprejetje nove Evropske ustave. Prodi je spodbujal povezovanja med članicami in krepitev vloge EU v mednarodnih zadevah. Med njegovim predsedovanjem so bili doseženi nekatere pomembni dogovori, kot je na primer sprejetje evra kot uradne denarne enote v državah območja evro. Prav tako se je trudil za izboljšanje gospodarske konkurenčnosti Evropske unije in je spodbujal socialno kohezijo med članicami.
Kot vsak politik je bil tudi Prodi deležen kritik in polemik, vendar je njegov mandat pustil precejšen pečat na nadaljnjem razvoju evropske integracije.
Tokratna epizoda je bila posneta 9. maja v Novi Gorici v sodelovanju z medijsko hišo Delo.
Vabljeni k poslušanju in gledanju.
[ENGLISH VERSION]
Romano Prodi: Nova Gorica and Gorizia as symbols of European unity
The guest of the new episode of the GOVSI podcast is Romano Prodi. We invited him to talk to host Nataša Čepar on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of Slovenia's accession to the EU. They also discussed relations between Slovenia and Italy and current events in world politics.
Romano Prodi (1939) is an Italian politician, a former two-time Prime Minister of Italy, and the former President of the European Commission from 1999 to 2004 – precisely during Slovenia's negotiations for EU accession. During his tenure at the helm of the European Commission, the European Union was actively preparing for its largest expansion in history and the adoption of a new European Constitution. Prodi encouraged integration among member states and strengthened the EU's role in international affairs. Some significant agreements were reached during his presidency, such as the adoption of the euro as the official currency in the euro area countries. He also worked to improve the European Union's economic competitiveness and promoted social cohesion among its members.
Like any politician, Prodi faced criticism and controversies, but his tenure left a significant mark on the further development of European integration.
This episode was recorded on May 9th in Nova Gorica in collaboration with the media company Delo.
You are invited to listen and watch.
Vladni podkast Govsi.
Voditeljica Nataša Čepar: Veseli me, da na dan obeležitve 20. obletnice vstopa Slovenije v EU lahko gostim človeka, ki je leta 2004 odprl vrata največji širitvi EU v zgodovini, tudi naši državi. Romano Prodi, dobrodošli. V čast mi je, da se lahko pogovarjam z vami.
Romano Prodi: Meni je v čast. No, obema je.
Voditeljica: Obema.
Prodi: Obema.
Voditeljica: Da. 20 let mineva, odkar ste simbolno odprli vrata največji širitvi EU v zgodovini tukaj, v Novi Gorici. Kako se je vrniti sem in praznovati obletnico?
Prodi: To mi veliko pomeni, ker je bila širitev zelo pomemben trenutek. Na začetku so me kritizirali, češ, da je bila širitev prevelika. Po napetostih in vojni pa vsi pravijo: Hvala bogu, da smo to naredili. Zame sta Gorica in Nova Gorica nekaj zelo posebnega. Ko sem bil mlad, sem v Gorici gledal, kako je bila meja zaprta z bodečo žico. Lepo je priti sem in imeti odprto mejo.
Voditeljica: Velikokrat se prišli tudi s kolesom.
Prodi: Da, ampak zdaj ne več.
Voditeljica: Kaj vam je najbolj ostalo v spominu z večera 30. aprila 2004, ko je na trgu, ki ni več ločeval Nove Gorice in Gorice ali Slovenije in Italije, ampak ju je povezoval, močno deževalo?
Prodi: Močno je deževalo. Imel sem občutek, da se nekaj spreminja. V politiki to redko vidimo, takrat pa sem imel občutek, da obračamo novo stran. To je bila resničnost. Sicer je res, da smo imeli potem veliko težav, ampak smo res obrnili novo stran.
Voditeljica: Torej ste zadovoljni s tem?
Prodi: Zelo sem zadovoljen in to dojemam kot velik uspeh. Vesel sem, da se evropski mediji, ne sicer toliko italijanski, evropski pa, zavedajo, kako velik uspeh je bila širitev, kar se tiče BDP-ja, plač, varnosti. Včasih tudi politiki naredimo kaj dobrega.
Voditeljica: Nova Gorica in Gorica sta bili obmejni mesti, ki sta se najbolj veselili slovenskega vstopa v EU. Ali skupno evropsko prestolnico kulture naslednje leto vidite kot veliko priložnost za ti mesti? Bi to lahko bil vzor za vso Evropo?
Prodi: Da. To mora biti vzor. Ne gre samo za vez med Gorico in Novo Gorico, ampak za simbol za vso Evropo. Če ne bi naredili tega, bi ti mesti in tudi Evropa izgubili priložnost, ker je to nekaj edinstvenega. Našli ne boste nobenega drugega primera, kjer bi v Evropi lahko to naredili. Ob tej priložnosti moramo povezati ljudi iz vseh držav in pripraviti močen simbolni dogodek, da bo ob novih medijih dobil pozornost in bomo novo generacijo naučili, da je to, kar se je zgodilo, zelo pomembno.
Voditeljica: Italija in Slovenija sta prijateljski državi, ampak se v Italiji vedno več govori o fojbah in izselitvi iz Istre in Dalmacije po drugi sv. vojni. Ne smemo zanemariti zgodovinskih dejstev, ampak se o tem govori brez zgodovinskega konteksta. Govori se o etničnem čiščenju Italijanov v Istri, čeprav je bilo v resnici ravno obratno. Zgodilo se je pod fašizmom. To stališče zagovarja predvsem skrajna desnica, vedno bolj pa ga sprejema tudi levica.
Prodi: Veliko sem razmišljal o tem. To obžalujem, nisem pa presenečen, ker je preteklost zelo težko pozabiti. Skrbi me, ker v številnih državah gledajo samo nazaj, da bi tako dobili glasove volivcev. Ko v nekem narodu prebudiš nostalgijo, bodo to vsi izkoristili, tako levi kot desni. To me skrbi. Zato mislim, da bi evropska prestolnica kulture tu lahko pomagala. Preteklost ne sme izgubiti svojega pomena, ampak večer izpred 20 let je simbol prihodnosti. Imeli smo ogromno volitev in groženj, a če bi ostalo pri tem, se ne bi nikoli dogovorili. Če bi tako ravnali, bi še vedno imeli meje.
Voditeljica: Ampak ali ni treba razčistiti preteklosti, da bi lahko šli naprej in sodelovali? Poročila slovenskih in italijanskih zgodovinarjev, ki so leta sodelovali, da bi dosegli skupno razlago zgodovine na meji, in so zaključke objavili že leta 2000, italijanska vlada ni nikoli sprejela.
Prodi: Ponovil bom, kar sem rekel že večkrat. Sprava zahteva čas in potrebuje, recimo temu vzporedno gibanje. Mogoča je samo, če imamo skupino politikov ali državljanov, ki so pripravljeni skleniti kompromis. Drugače se ne bomo nikoli dogovorili. In drugič, zato vztrajam pri izobraževanju mladih, potrebujemo novo generacijo. Osebni spomin ali napetosti s sosedi so tisto, kar nas najbolj zaznamuje, in politiki to izkoriščajo, da bi dobili glasove in razgreli strasti in napetost. Toda to je tako psihološki proces, kot tudi nujnost časa in dobra volja političnih vodij. Nikoli nismo imeli kombinacije vseh treh. Toda to je Evropa. Evropa gre naprej, vendar potrebuje čas. Toda kot ste rekli, te težave, ki so izšle iz povojne dobe, ostajajo nerešene in kot take lahko vedno postanejo dejavnik razdvajanja.
Voditeljica: Na primer, Slovenija je tudi prispevala svoj del k fiduciarnemu računu v Luksemburgu kot kompenzacijo za posesti, ki so jih pustili italijanski optanti ali izgnanci, in tako izpolnila svojo obvezo. Toda Italija tega plačila ni sprejela, torej je zadeva odprta.
Prodi: Potrjujete, kar vam govorim. Gre za težavo, za katero potrebujemo drugačno vzdušje, da bi dosegli te dogovore. In ne gre za ... Glejte, ta proces ne more biti rezultat odločitev sodnikov. Več potrebujejo. Potrebujejo zamisel, da je mogoče stopiti v prihodnost. Da se vrnem na vaše prejšnje vprašanje, skupno leto kulture je ta priložnost, saj kultura pomeni postaviti na isto mizo težave preteklosti in težave prihodnosti, na nekakšno nevtralno mizo. Po eni strani obstaja zamisel, ki je tudi pravilna, da se Evropa prepočasi spreminja. Po tej strani gre za nekakšno napetost in upor proti Evropi.
Voditeljica: Trenutno vlada nekakšen nasprotujoč si občutek. Zapreti moramo oči in gledati v prihodnost. Vseeno vas moram vprašati, italijanski predsednik Mattarella je bil povabljen na otok Rab na 20. obletnico zaprtja italijanskega koncentracijskega taborišča, vendar ni prišel. Kaj menite, zakaj?
Prodi: Zakaj pa me ne vprašate, kako sem se počutil, ko sem videl oba predsednika z roko v roki, kot brata, pred vsemi, ki so obiskali tisto mesto tragedije? To je bil trenutek prihodnosti. Tega ne moreš storiti vsak dan. Pošlješ sporočilo in greš naprej, če pa misliš, češ, storil si to, tistega pa ne, seveda ne moreš opraviti čisto vsega. Namreč predsednik Mattarella in njegov slovenski kolega sta javno poslala sporočilo, da sta simbola obeh držav z roko v roki. To je pozitivno sporočilo.
Voditeljica: Da, toda v italijanski javnosti je krožila fotografija nekdanjega jugoslovanskega predsednika, ki se je prišel opravičit za vse grozote, ki so se zgodile Italijanom. To je bila najpomembnejša stvar, ki je krožila po italijanskih medijih, se vam ne zdi?
Prodi: Glejte, ponoviti moram, kar sem vam povedal prej. Analizirate, kar mislite, da so nedoseženi rezultati. Poudarjam izjemni napredek, ki je bil dosežen. Če postavimo na mizo tako drugačna stališča, ne bomo nikoli našli rešitve. Če gledamo v preteklost, se bomo vedno pritoževali nad nečim. Celo v družinah. Na simbolično ponovno združitev je treba gledati kot novo izhodišče.
Voditeljica: V redu. Kaj menite o današnji Italiji Giorgie Meloni?
Prodi: Že od nekdaj imam drugačna politična mnenja. Ona je ... Glede na to, o čemer govoriva, je s stališča evropske politike popolnoma dvoumna, saj po eni strani podpira Von der Leynovo, po drugi strani pa je z roko v roki z Orbánom. Že od nekdaj sem popolnoma drugačnega mnenja. Če še enkrat poudarim narodni vidik, ona gotovo ne bi nikoli našla rešitev za vse težave, ki ste jih izpostavili. Treba je namreč obrniti nov list. Ponavljam, ona se hoče vrniti k popolnoma drugačni predstavi o prihodnosti Evrope od moje. Razhajava se v pogledih na socialno politiko, vendar govorimo o mednarodnih zadevah. Res mislim, da moramo izbrati Italijo, ki je povezana z zahodom, vendar z evropsko entiteto, ki ima lahko glas v mednarodni politiki. Torej ne morem sprejeti položaja fragmentacije samo zato, ker imamo ameriško zaščito, ki je, ponavljam, nepogrešljiva, a mora biti uravnotežena z močnim evropskim položajem, sicer ne moremo nikoli obstajati. Če pomislimo na vse velike mednarodne težave, Irak, Afganistan, Libija, nikoli nismo imeli evropskega položaja, ker nimamo nikakršne zunanje politike. Moje stališče, ki se razlikuje od Meloniejinega, je, da imajo ZDA močno zavezništvo in močno prijateljico, vendar z evropsko zunanjo politiko, ki ima lahko dialog z našimi ameriškimi prijatelji.
Voditeljica: K temu bova prišla malce kasneje. Bili ste osrednja osebnost italijanske levice v tako imenovani drugi republiki. Kako gledate na vidik politične levice in desnice v Italiji in po Evropi? Ali vas skrbi vpliv evroskepticizma?
Prodi: Menim, da na kratki rok, denimo v naslednjih volitvah, ne bo velikih sprememb. Kakšen premik v desno, ki pa ne bo tako močen, da bi spremenil sliko. Dolgoročno je odvisno od tega, kaj bomo naredili. Če se bomo odločali samo za mediacije, ljudje ne bodo imeli radi Evrope. Ko smo vzpostavljali EU, smo imeli opozicijo, imeli pa smo tudi zamisel, da gradimo nekaj novega. Če tega sporočila ne predaš jasno, se bo evropska politika izgubila in vrnili se bomo v prvotni položaj. Zato ponavljam. Zdaj se ne bo nič zgodilo. V prihodnosti bomo ustvarili zunanjo politiko, evropsko vojsko in odpravili pravico do veta. S pravico do veta ne moremo sprejeti nobene odločitve. Skupaj moramo ustvarjati zunanjo politiko, ampak tudi nekakšno skupno fiskalno sliko. Drugače nikoli ne bomo imeli Evrope. Če tega ne bomo naredili, bo to pokopalo Evropo. Mislimo, da ne, ampak Evropa potrebuje hitro ukrepanje. S tega vidika pa tudi zaključek širitve. Balkanske države so del Evrope. Dayton nam ne predstavlja težav. Nove države bi lahko bile 1 odstotek evropskega BDP-ja. Postopek mora steči, toda ko smo pred 20 leti izvedli širitev, smo se jasno obvezali, da spremenimo institucijo. Tega pa nismo storili, tako da moramo sprejeti nove države, toda s popolnoma novim institucijskim okvirjem.
Voditeljica: Da. Omenili ste že močno voljo po reformah in odpravi pravice do veta. Cilj je zamenjati soglasno glasovanje z večinskim, da bi Unija bolje delovala. Bo težko vnesti te spremembe?
Prodi: Da. Težko bo. So trenutki ... Pomislite na evro. Evra niso sprejeli soglasno. Samo 12 držav je glasovalo za evro. Zdaj nas je 20. Še se bomo širili, ker se želijo številni vključiti. Enako moramo ravnati. Poglejte, težko je imeti takoj skupno evropsko vojsko. Če pa pride do soglasja med štirimi, petimi državami članicami, se jim čez en dan pridruži še drugih deset. Poglejte, če nekatere države nočejo zraven, bo tako kot pri evru. Ne bodo se vključile. Ampak ... Mislim, da ... Zaradi izida brexita nobena država ne bo izstopila iz Evrope. Nobena država.
Voditeljica: Kdaj mislite bo prišlo do te reforme? Kdaj bo uresničena?
Prodi: Odvisno od smernic. Odvisno je tudi od Francije. Kajti največji ... Pri ukrajinski vojni je Nemčija spremenila svojo politiko. Država, ki ni hotela dati enega evra za obrambo, ima zdaj za to dvakrat večji proračun kot Francija. Potrebujemo skupno vojsko, vendar je ne moremo imeti, če Francija, Nemčija, nekatere države plačujejo več kot druge. Velike odločitve glede Varnostnega sveta in jedrske oborožitve pa sprejema samo ena država. Zato potrebujemo veliko spremembo. Mislim, da se zgodovina pomika v smeri, da bo to nujno. Potrebujemo čas, kot sva že rekla, ampak mlada generacija se vse bolj nagiba k logični ideji, da si evropske države delijo stroške in moč, če hočejo preživeti. Samo preživeti. Ujeti smo med Kitajsko in ZDA. Izgubljamo svoje dostojanstvo. Nezakonito priseljevanje bo tudi v prihodnjih letih velik izziv. EU je sprejela nov pakt o migracijah in azilu, ki določuje kvote za distribucijo priseljencev, ki jih bo sprejela vsaka država. Alternativna možnost pa je plačilo.
Voditeljica: Bodo bogate države raje plačale, kot sprejele prosilce za azil, tako da bodo breme prenesle na revnejše države?
Prodi: Da. Nisem bil zadovoljen s to odločitvijo glede priseljevanja. Take situacije ne moreš reševati z denarjem. Moramo se odločiti, kako se bodo ljudje selili. Potrebujemo skupno zunanjo politiko. Ampak, saj veste ... V prihodnosti bo prišlo do sprememb, a ne zaradi političnih odločitev, temveč zaradi nizke stopnje rojstev v vseh evropskih državah. Zdaj, zapomnite si, kaj vam govorim, vsi politiki, ki so proti priseljencem, zdaj dobivajo glasove. Čez 10 let ne bo več tako. Evropske države bodo tekmovale, katera bo pritegnila priseljence. Vse znake imamo, ampak kot sem že rekel, ljudje se odločajo, ko gledajo v vzvratno ogledalo. Ampak Evropa bo potrebovala priseljence. Zdaj nadaljujemo s to slabo in neenakopravno situacijo. Pripravimo pa se na prihodnost. Če imaš 1,2 ali 1,3 otroka na človeka, število prebivalcev upada. Naše države so že v tem položaju. Treba bo razmišljati drugače. -Ponavljam. Tekmovali bomo, da bi privabili priseljence.
Voditeljica: Odnos med EU in Rusijo je zgolj odsev odnosa med ZDA in Rusijo, kar kaže na politično odvisnost Evrope. Nihče več ne omenja miru. Generalni sekretar Nata Stoltenberg govori o morebitni zmagi Ukrajine nad Rusijo, drugo največjo jedrsko velesilo na svetu. Kako lahko to razumemo?
Prodi: Moje mnenje je, da je Evropa dolžna braniti Ukrajino in se truditi doseči mir. Iskreno sem bil presenečen, ko so mir poskušale doseči Turčija in Savdska Arabija, Evropa pa ne. Naravnost neverjetno, saj ne bi bilo kontradiktorno s Francozi in Američani, če bi pomagali Ukrajini. Ampak ... O miru ne moremo govoriti kot o umazani vojni, ki jo je nekdo nedavno končal. Reči si moramo, da delamo v korist Ukrajini in ji damo vso obrambo. Ukrajini dajmo vso obrambo, a narediti moramo vse, da bi razmišljali o prihodnjem miru. Vojna se ne more nadaljevati v nedogled.
Voditeljica: Omenili ste, da se od EU pričakuje, da bo igrala večjo vlogo v večstranskem sodelovanju. Kitajska ima več sto milijard dolarjev trgovinskih presežkov tako z ZDA kot z Evropo. To vodi k hudim napetostim. Sploh z ZDA. Kaj bi lahko te napetosti olajšalo?
Prodi: Mislite na odnose med Kitajsko in Evropo?
Voditeljica: Da.
Prodi: Nekaj nedavnih dogodkov je. Srečanje med Ši Džinpingom in nemškim kanclerjem ter francoskim predsednikom prejšnji teden ni obrodilo nobenih sadov. To je preprost povzetek. Sadove je obrodilo samo srečanje med Ši Džinpingom in Orbanom. Očitno je, da želi Kitajska deliti in vladati. Mislim, da to ni ne v interesu Kitajske ne v interesu Evrope. Ker moramo napisati protokol odnosov med Kitajsko in Evropo, ki bo združljiv z našimi interesi. Trenutno med nami ni dialoga, sta samo vzajemno izsiljevanje in vzajemna napetost. Obstajal je trenutek, ko je po letih pogajanj nekdanja nemška kanclerka ga. Merkel odobrila protokol, glede katerega se nismo strinjali. Zamisel o dolgoročni strategiji s Kitajsko. A to je bilo obdobje med Trumpom in Bidnom. Ko je na oblast prišel Biden, je to izginilo. Napetosti med Kitajsko in Evropo so se začele z nemogočo odločitvijo Kitajske, da obtoži evropske poslance, in z evropskim odgovorom na to. Priložnost za dogovor je izginila. Zdaj nisem optimističen. Glede teh odnosov sem črnogled. Naj ponovim, srečanja niso obrodila sadov. A jasno, ko pride do srečanja med francoskim, nemškim ali italijanskim in kitajskim voditeljem ... To me spominja na šalo pred 50 leti. Ko je pomočnik predsednika Maa predsedniku rekel: Poglejte, švicarska vojska je napadla Kitajsko. Mao je odvrnil: V katerem hotelu so? Saj veste, vsi smo ... Na srečanju v Parizu je bila von der Leyen samo opazovalka. Glavno vlogo je imela Francija, v Pekingu pa Nemčija. Glejte ... Če bi sodelovali, bi dosegli drugačen rezultat.
Voditeljica: Rekli ste tudi, da lahko konec vojne v Ukrajini dosežemo samo s sodelovanjem ZDA in Kitajske.
Prodi: To je jasno. Vojna v Ukrajini se bo končala šele, ko bodo Kitajska in ZDA ... Mediator je lahko kdor koli. A za začetek je treba reči: Poglejte, moramo se odločiti, da je igre te vojne konec. Je vse, kar lahko diplomacija doseže glede nadaljujoče se krize na Bližnjem vzhodu, ki je trenutno ena največjih humanitarnih katastrof našega časa, le začasno premirje? Tudi v tem primeru ni bilo Evrope. Bili so Egipt, Katar, vsi, a nobenega Evropejca. A mislim, da v tem primeru ... Upam, da bomo odločitev dosegli hitreje. To tragedijo bi lahko končali. Upam, ker ... V tem primeru je skoraj vse odvisno od ZDA. In ... Ameriški predsednik mora to nujno končati. Zato mislim, da bi se tragedija lahko končala že prej. Pred ameriškimi volitvami. Ker Netanjahu še vedno vztraja z invazijo na preostali del Gaze, ampak ... To ni samo tragedija, to je nesmisel, to nima nobenega političnega smisla. To je samo dejanje politika, ki skuša rešiti samega sebe.
Voditeljica: Živimo v času globalne informacijske vojne, celo v Sloveniji smo lansko leto aretirali dva ruska vohuna. To je bila zanimiva plat vaše kariere v 70-ih, ko so vas povezovali s KGB-jem. V zvezi s podatki o ugrabitvi in umoru nekdanjega italijanskega premierja Alda Mora.
Prodi: Ne vem.
Voditeljica: Za kaj je šlo? Lahko toliko let pozneje poveste kaj več?
Prodi: Vse to je bilo razjasnjeno, nobene težave ni. Imate pa prav glede sodobnega instrumenta podatkov. So nova evolucija sveta. In mislim, da smo zdaj vsi pod nadzorom velikih igralcev. Jaz ne spadam mednje, ampak ... Novi instrument podatkov je tako prefinjen. Podatki so del novega sveta.
Voditeljica: Verjetno je to nevarno?
Prodi: Da, nevarno je, a ni ... Po svoje je to novo, zdaj je to veliko bolj prefinjeno, a podatki so bili vedno del zunanje politike. Celo v starih imperijih so bile zakonske zveze, odnosi, odposlanci, vohuni ... Zdaj so ti instrumenti tako prodorni, da je čisto drugače. Drugačen svet.
Voditeljica: V nedavnem intervjuju za TV Slovenija ste omenili, da se mladi ne zavedajo, da je za mir, v katerem živijo, poskrbela združena Evropa. Na Zahodu v miru živi že tretja generacija. To se je zgodilo prvič po 1500 letih, od padca Rimskega imperija. Je to sporočilo, ki ga želite predati naslednji generaciji? Da morajo ohraniti EU?
Prodi: Da, a dodal sem tudi, da ... Dejstvo, da je Evropa prinesla mir, lahko nova generacija sprejme samo, če ga obnovimo. Ko študentom govorim o miru, name gledajo kot na predzgodovinsko žival. Češ, edino smo imeli mir, profesor, kaj pa govorite? Učiti jih moramo o tem, kar se dogaja zdaj, o nevarnosti, s katero se bomo morda soočali že jutri. Zato vedno vztrajam, da je lahko Evropa močna samo, če jo obnovimo. Samo če naredimo nekaj novega. Mir je postopek. Ni zaklad, ki ga lahko čuvamo v žepu. Vsak dan ga je treba obnavljati. Zato jim moramo reči: Poglejte, dosegli smo ga, a narediti moramo še več. Prav to območje, kjer se srečujeta dve kulturi, je preprosto majhen, a pomemben prikaz gradnje miru za prihodnost.
Voditeljica: Integracija od spodaj navzgor.
Prodi: Tako je. Ne, moramo ga obnoviti. Poglejte ... Ljudje živijo na podlagi lastnih izkušenj, ne na podlagi zgodovinskih knjig. Je to jasno?
Voditeljica: Najlepša hvala za ta pogovor. Želim vam vse dobro.
Prodi: Hvala lepa.
[ENGLISH VERSION]
Gov.si, the Government Podcast
Host Ms. Nataša Čepar: We are celebrating the 20-year anniversary of us joining the EU and I am glad to host the man that opened the door to the enlargement in 2004, also to our country. Romano Prodi, welcome. It is a pleasure and honour to have you here and to talk to you.
Guest Mr. Romano Prodi: It is my pleasure, not yours. Well, ours.
Host: Ours.
Mr. Prodi: Ours.
Host: Yes. It has been 20 years since you symbolically opened the door to the EU's biggest enlargement right here, in Nova Gorica. How does it feel to be back here celebrating the anniversary?
Mr. Prodi: It is important for me because look. For the enlargement ... Everything is important. At the beginning, I was criticized because we have done too much. Now, after this tension, after this war, everybody says: Thank God that we did it. Of course, for me, Gorizia and Nova Gorica are something special. When I was young, I was in Gorizia to see how the border was closed with barbed wires. So, to come here and have an open way, it is nice.
Host: You came here also by bicycle many times.
Mr. Prodi: Yes, but not now. Not now.
Host: What do you remember the most about the evening of the 30 April 2004 when heavy rain fell on the crowded square which was no longer separating Nova Gorica and Gorizia or Slovenia and Italy, but was connecting them?
Mr. Prodi: Well, about the rain. There was heavy rain. There was really a deep feeling that something was changing. It is not easy to see when you are in politics, but in that moment, I had a feeling that we are turning a new page of history. And it was the reality. We must consider what happened after, with many difficulties, many problems, but the page was really turned.
Host: So, you are happy with it?
Mr. Prodi: I am happy, and I consider this as a great result. I am happy that the European press, less the press of my country, but the European press is remembering how successful the enlargement has been in terms of GDP, in terms of wages, in terms of security. You think, sometimes even the politicians do something good.
Host: Nova Gorica and Gorizia were the two border towns that looked forward most eagerly to Slovenia's accession to the EU. Do you see the hosting of the cross border European capital of culture as a significant opportunity for these two towns? And maybe this could serve also as a role model in the European context.
Mr. Prodi: Yes. It must be so. It is not a link between Gorizia and Nova Gorica only, it is a symbol for all of Europe. If you do not do this, you miss an opportunity for the cities and for Europe because it is very unusual. If you think, it is so unusual. You cannot find any other case in Europe where we could do this. The occasion must be to connect people from all European countries, to have some sort of symbolic event, strong symbolic event because with the new media you need to keep the attention on it. And to teach the new generation that what happened is very important.
Host: Italy and Slovenia are indeed friendly countries, but we are increasingly hearing Italian debates about the foibe massacres and the exodus from Istria and Dalmatia after WW II. While historical facts should not be neglected, the entire issue is being discussed without a proper historical context. Claims of ethnic cleansing of the Italian population in Istria are made when in fact, the situation was entirely the opposite, occurring under more than 20 years of fascism. Such a position, once primarily supported by the radical right, is now widely accepted by the left as well.
Mr. Prodi: I was thinking a lot about this. I am sorry, but I am not surprised because it is so difficult to forget the past. What I am afraid about Europe now is that in many countries, they are like drivers that drive only looking at the back gear for electoral goals. When you wake up the national nostalgia, of course everybody exploits it, left or right. This is my fear. This is the reason why I think that the year of culture is the right place to say, look, let us give to the past the meaning of the past, but the night of 20 years ago is a symbol of the future. In the past, we had so many illegal actions, so many threats that if we analyse them, we will never have any agreement. If you do that, you still build borders.
Host: But do you not agree it is necessary to clarify past issues to move forward and build further cooperation? The report by Slovene and Italian historians who worked for years to arrive at the common interpretation of history in the border area and whose conclusions were published back in the year 2000, has never been accepted by the Italian government.
Mr. Prodi: I will tell you what I said before. This process of convergence needs time, and it needs, let's say a parallel movement. It can be done only when there is a group of politicians or citizens who want to reach a compromise. Because otherwise, you will never reach it. And secondly, this is the reason I insist on educating young people, it needs a new generation. Because the personal memory and personal tensions with your neighbour, they are the first thing that you have in mind and clearly, politicians exploit it to get votes, to rise the passion and the tension. This is both a psychological process and the necessity of time and good will of political leaders. And we have never had the combination of all three. But this is Europe. Europe is going on, but it needs time.
Host: Like you said that these issues that originated from the post-war period remain unsolved and as such can always become a factor of division. Like, for example, Slovenia also contributed its share to the fiduciary bank account in Luxembourg as compensation for the properties left by Italian optants, thereby fulfilling its obligation. However, Italy did not accept that payment. So the thing is open.
Mr. Prodi: You are confirming what I am telling now. It is a problem that you need a different atmosphere to have these agreements. It is not ... Look, this process cannot be the consequence of a judge's decision. It needs more. It needs the idea that it is possible to be the future and coming back to your previous question, the common year of culture is this occasion because culture means to put on the same table the problem of the past and of the future in some sort of neutral table. But there is, look, from one side, there is the idea that Europe is too slow to change and so on. And from the other side, there is some sort of revolt against Europe, tension against Europe. There is this contradictory feeling in this moment, and we have to close our eyes and look for the future.
Host: But I still must ask you, for example, the Italian President Mattarella was invited to come to the Isle of Rab on the 20th anniversary of the closing of the Italian concentration camp, but he did not show up. Why, do you think?
Mr. Prodi: Why, do not ask me. Which was my feeling when I have seen the two presidents hand in hand like brothers in front of all visiting the place of tragedy. And this was the moment for the future. You know, you cannot do this every day, you know, you send a message and then you go on. But if you think you have done this and you did not do that, of course, you cannot have everything done. President Mattarella and his Slovenian colleague, they have given publicly the message that the two countries are hand in hand. This is a positive message.
Host: Yes, but in the Italian public, there was this picture of the Yugoslavian, Ex-Yugoslavian president that came to apologize for all the horrible things that happened to the Italian people. That was the most important thing that evolved in the Italian media. Or do you not think so?
Mr. Prodi: Well. Look, I must simply repeat what I told before. You are analysing what you think are the unaccomplished results. I am stressing the great progress that has been done. So if we go on in putting on the table this so different point of view, we will never have a solution. I ... look. If you look to the past, you will always complain about something. Even in families. And when you have a symbolic reunion, you must think that this is a new starting point.
Host: Okay. What do you think about Giorgia Meloni's Italy today?
Mr. Prodi: Well, you know that I have always been, still have different political ideas. She is ... From what we are interested now, they say the European policy is a total ambiguity, you know. From one side, backing von der Leyen, from the other side, hand in hand with Orban. So, I have always had a totally different point of view that if we go back to this stressing the national point of view, we would never have a solution of all the problems you raised because you need to turn a page. And I repeat, she wants to go back to a totally different idea of what I have about the future of Europe. Apart from the different view of the social policy and all that, we are talking about the international point of view. I do think that ... We have to choose and Italy is linked to the NATO and linked to the West, but with the European entity, we can have a voice in international policy. So I cannot accept neither a position of fragmentation, simply because we have the American protection, that is, I repeat, indispensable. But that must be balanced by a strong European position. Because otherwise we shall never exist. If you think about all the great international issues, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. We never had a European position because we have no foreign policy. So, my point and this is different from Meloni, is, America as a strong alliance, a strong friend, but with a European foreign policy, we can have a dialogue with our American friends.
Host: We come to that a little bit later. You were a central figure of the Italian left in the so-called Second Republic. How do you perceive the perspective of the political left and right in Italy and across Europe? Are you concerned about the influence of Euroscepticism?
Mr. Prodi: Look, let us talk for the short term. Let's say, the next elections. I don't think that there will be major changes. Some movement to the right, but not so deep to change the picture. In the long term, it depends upon what we shall do. If we go on with the mediation, mediation, mediation, people will not love Europe. When we did the euro, the enlargement, we had opposition, but we had also the idea that we are building something new. If you don't give this message, clearly the European policy will decrease and we go back to the natural position, you know, and... So, I repeat now, nothing will happen. Nothing will happen in the future. We will build foreign policy, European army, the end of the veto right. That with the veto right, we cannot take any decision. And we must build not only foreign policy together, but some sort of common fiscal picture, you know, because otherwise we shall never have Europe. If you don't do that, we arrive to the end of Europe, you know, I don't think so, but Europe needs action now. And in this perspective to end what we called the enlargement. Let's say the Balkan countries are part of Europe. They don't bring us any problem because together a new country could be 1% of European GDP. And so, the process busted, let's say. But when we did the enlargement 20 years ago, there was a clear engagement to change the institution. And we didn't do it. So, we must go on with the new countries, but with completely new institutional framework.
Host: Yes, you already mentioned that there is a strong willingness for reforms and the elimination of the member states' right of veto. The aim is to replace unanimity voting with majority voting to make the union function better. Will it be difficult to apply these changes?
Mr. Prodi: Yes, it would be difficult. But you know, there are moments in history, think to the euro. The euro was not approved with unanimity. Only 12 countries voted in favor of euro. Now we are 20 and we shall go on because many want to come in and we have to do the same. Look, it's difficult to have immediately a common European army. But if there is an agreement between 4 or 5 member states, the day after other ten will join. If some country does not want to get in, it's like the euro. It will stay out, you know. I think that because of the exit of Brexit No country will get out of Europe now. No country.
Host: When do you think that this will happen? This reform will come to reality.
Mr. Prodi: It depends upon the elections. And depends upon France. Because the great jump, you know. Look, with the Ukrainian war Germany has changed its policy. And now a country who is refusing to spend €1 for defence. Now they have a budget that is more than double than the French one. So, we need a common army. But it's possible to have a common army, if France, Germany pays and another payback. Germany pays more than others and the big decisions. Security Council and nuclear armament are taken by one country only. So, we need a great change. I think that history is moving in the direction of obliging it. We need time. As you said in the program. I realized it before, but in the young generation, there is more the idea that it is common sense to share cost, power among European countries to survive, to survive. Because we are like a nut between China and the United States. And, you know, we lose our dignity.
Host: Illegal migration will continue to be a challenge in the years to come. The EU adopted a new pact on migration and asylum, which established quotas for the distribution of immigrants that each state will accept, with the option of payment as an alternative. Will wealthy states choose to pay rather than accept asylum seekers and leaving the poorer countries to bear the burden?
Mr. Prodi: Yeah. I was not happy. About the last decision concerning migration, because you cannot, let's say, balance with this money situation in which you must decide how people will move. We must have a common foreign policy. But, you know, in the future there will be a change, not because of political decisions, but because of low level of birth in all European countries now. Remember, what I'm telling you now. All the politicians that are against immigrants, they gain votes. In ten years’ time, no more. There will be a competition among European countries to attract immigrants. We have already all these signals. But as I told you before, people decide looking and guiding with the back mirror. But, you know, Europe will need immigrants. And so now let us go on with this bad and unequal situation but let us prepare to the future. Because when you have 1.2, 1.3 children per woman. You are... The pressure of the population in our countries are already in this situation.
Host: So, the changing of thinking is needed.
Mr. Prodi: I repeat, there will be competition to attract immigrants.
Host: The relationship between the EU and Russia is merely a reflection of the relationship between the USA and Russia, indicating Europe's political dependency. No one is talking about peace anymore. NATO’s chief, Mr. Stoltenberg, speaks of Ukraine's potential victory over Russia, the world's second largest nuclear power. How can this be understood?
Mr. Prodi: Well, in my opinion Europe has the duty to defend Ukraine and to work for peace. I have been honestly surprised that there was peace, let's say tentative done by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and no one done by Europe. This is incredible, because this is not contradictory with the French, with American, and with the helping Ukraine. But, you know, you cannot speak about peace as a dirty word. As somebody who was hinting recently, you know, you have to say, look, we work in favour of Ukraine. We give Ukraine all the defence, but we must do all the efforts to think about a future settling of the problem. You can go on with this endless war.
Host: You mentioned that the EU is expected to play a greater role in multilateral cooperation. When discussing China, the country maintains a trade surplus of hundreds of billions of dollars, with both the USA and Europe leading to severe, severe tensions particularly with the United States. What could ease these tensions that were made by this? None...
Mr. Prodi: You mean the relation between China and Europe? Broadly speaking.
Host: Yes.
Mr. Prodi: Well, we have recent... Episodes. You know, the meeting between Xi Jinping and the German chancellor and the French president in the last week. They had no results. To sum up very, very simply. The result was only, in the meeting between Xi and Olmert. So clearly you see that China is trying to divide and rule. And I don't think that this is neither in the Chinese interest nor in the European interest because we must... Write some protocol of the relations between China and Europe that is compatible with the interest. But to have a dialogue. Now we don't have a dialogue. We have a black base and reciprocal black bay and reciprocal tension. There was a moment in which, after years of negotiations, the former German chancellor, Mrs. Merkel, approved a protocol that was not an agreement, but the idea of, let's say, having a long-range strategy with the addition of China. But this was in the interval between Trump and Biden. But when Biden became the president, this absolutely disappeared and started a tension between China and Europe with unbearable decision of Chinese to, let's say, to accuse a European members of Parliament and a real European answer to that, you know, and so the window of opportunity to arrange has disappeared. And now I am not optimist. Well, I am pessimist about the relations that we have, as I repeat, because of the scarce results of the meetings we have. But clearly. Look, when you have a meeting between a French leader, a German leader or Italian leader in China, you know, this reminds me of the old joke of 50 years ago. You know, when... An aide of President Mao tells the president: "Look, President, the Swiss army is invading China." And Mao answers: "In which hotel they are?" You know we are you know in the meeting in Paris, Mrs. von der Leyen was just a spectator. And France was the actor. In Beijing. The actor was Germany. Look. If you act together, the result will be different.
Host: You also said that the end of the war in Ukraine can be reached only by cooperation of United States.
Mr. Prodi: And clear. It's so clear. The end of the war in Ukraine will be only in the moment in which China and United States. Then the mediation can be done by anybody, by you, by everybody. But you must start with the idea. Look, we must decide that the game of this war is over.
Host: Is all that can be done about the continuous crisis in the Middle East, which is currently manifesting one of the greatest humanitarian tragedy of our times, that the diplomacy only achieved temporary ceasefire?
Mr. Prodi: Even in this case, you didn't have Europe. You had to Egypt. You have a Qatar. You have everybody. No European, you know. But in this case, I do think that... I do hope that we shall have a quicker... decision. We could end of this tragedy. I do hope because, in this case, it's mainly in the hands of United States. And for the American president it is urgent to put an end to it, you know. So I am... I do think that the tragedy could end. Sooner. Before the American elections. Because of this, uh, you know, Netanyahu is still insisting to invade the last part of Gaza, but it is not only a tragedy, but it is nonsense, it is something that has no political comprehension. It is only an action of a politician save himself.
Host: We're leaving the realm of global information warfare. Even Slovenia arrested two Russian spies last year. There was this intriguing aspect of your career back in the 70s when you were associated with the KGB. The thing was with the information about the former Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro's kidnapping and then was killed.
Mr. Prodi: I didn't know.
Host: What was that all about? Maybe from the distance, if you can tell something.
Mr. Prodi: It has been clarified by history, so there is no problem. But you raise the problem of modern instrument of information. And they are the new evolution of the world. And I am... I do think that everybody now is under control of the big players, not me, but... The new instrument of information, they are so sophisticated, you know that they are part of the new world.
Host: This is a dangerous thing, I guess.
Mr. Prodi: Yeah, it's a dangerous thing, but no, it's not... From some point of view is new because they used to be that much more sophisticated. But the information has been always part of foreign policy. You know, even in the old empires, marriage, you know, relations, ambassadors, spies... Now, the instruments are so... Going inside. That is a different picture.
Host: A different world. In a recent interview for the TV Slovenia, you mentioned that young people don't realize that the peace they live in was brought to them by a united Europe. In the West, there has been peace for the third generation, which is the first time in 1500 years since the fall of the Roman Empire. Is this your message to the next generation that you want to bring them that they should preserve the EU?
Mr. Prodi: Yes. But I also added that the memory, the teaching of this that Europe brought peace can be accepted by the new generation only if we renew it. Because when I speak to the students about peace, they look at me as a prehistoric animal. "We always had peace, professor." So, you must tell them. Teaching that what is happening now, the danger that we could have, even tomorrow. And this is why I always insist that you can have a strong Europe only if you renew Europe. Only if you do something new. Peace is a process. It is not some sort of treasure that you can keep in your pockets. It's something that you must renew every day. This is why you must tell them, look, we have done it. But we must do something. And in the specific area here, the year of the... The year of a culture together is simply a small, important other demonstration that we build peace for the future.
Host: It's building the integration from bottom up.
Mr. Prodi: Yeah. No, but renew it. Because look, people live on their own experience, not reading history books. Clear.
Host: Thank you for this interview and I wish you all the best.
Mr. Prodi: Thank you so much.