Članstvo v Varnostnem svetu Združenih narodov tudi posledica odgovornega delovanja v EU in NATU

Gosta prve epizode GOVSI podkasta sta ministrica za zunanje in evropske zadeve Tanja Fajon ter minister za obrambo Marjan Šarec. Letos obeležujemo 20 let od vstopa Slovenije v Evropsko unijo in zvezo NATO, s 1. januarjem letos pa je Slovenija še drugič v zgodovini postala nestalna članica Varnostnega sveta Združenih narodov (VS ZN).

Leta 2004 smo torej dosegli dva ključna cilja slovenske politike po osamosvojitvi. Pričakovanja so bila velika, kakšna pa je bila prehojena pot? Kako je 20 let članstva v EU in NATU vplivalo na razvoj Slovenije? Kakšna bo vloga obeh integracij v spreminjajočem se globalnem svetu in kaj si lahko Slovenija obeta od nestalnega članstva v VS ZN? Na ta in še druga vprašanja odgovore išče voditelj tokratne epizode Boštjan Lajovic.

Vabljeni tudi k ogledu videopodkasta. 

 

[ENGLISH VERSION] 

UN Security Council non-permanent membership also a result of responsible engagement in the EU and NATO

The guests of the first episode of the GOVSI podcast were Tanja Fajon, Minister of Foreign and European Affairs, and Marjan Šarec, Minister of Defence. This year marks 20 years since Slovenia’s accession to the European Union and the NATO Alliance. On 1 January 2024, Slovenia also became a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council for the second time in history.

In 2004, we achieved two crucial objectives of Slovenian policy following independence. The expectations were great, but what was the path travelled like? How did 20 years of memberships in the EU and NATO impact Slovenia’s development? What will be the role of both organisations in the changing global world and what can Slovenia expect from its non-permanent membership in the UN Security Council? The host of this episode, Boštjan Lajovic, will seek answers to these and other questions.

You are also invited to watch the video podcast.

Transcript

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Vladni podkast Govsi. 

Voditelj Boštjan Lajovic: Dober dan, spoštovane gledalke in gledalci, poslušalke in poslušalci. In pozdravljeni v prvem podkastu Govsi. Podkast, ki ga pripravlja Vlada Republike Slovenije v produkciji Urada vlade za komuniciranje. Gosta v prvem podkastu sta podpredsednica vlade in zunanja ministrica Tanja Fajon ter obrambni minister Marjan Šarec. Dober dan, lep pozdrav obema. 

Voditelj: Ne bom spraševal o tremi. Oba prihajata iz novinarskih oziroma medijskih vrst. Dolgoletne izkušnje imata tako s politiko kot seveda tudi z mediji in novinarstvom kot takim. Zato najprej seveda hvala lepa, da sta se odzvala našemu vabilu. Preden začnemo s pogovorom, še nekaj besed o podkastu. Z njim razširjamo nabor komunikacijskih orodij za sporočanje vsebin, s katerimi se ukvarja Vlada Republike Slovenije. Vendar v tem primeru ne gre samo za sporočanje, pač pa tudi za dodatne pojasnitve določenih vladnih odločitev in načrtov. Gostje, ki jih bomo povabili, bodo raznoliki, od ministrov kot danes do javnih uslužbencev. Povabili pa bomo tudi strokovnjake in ljudi z bogatimi izkušnjami in znanjem, ki niso nujno zaposleni v javni upravi. Podkaste bodo vodili različni voditelji, danes pa sem z vami Boštjan Lajovic. 

Zdaj pa kar k pogovoru. Kot sem že rekel, za prva gosta smo povabili ministrico za zunanje zadeve Tanjo Fajon in ministra za obrambo Marjana Šarca. S posebnim razlogom, namreč letos obeležujemo dvajsetletnico vstopa Republike Slovenije v Evropsko unijo in tudi zvezo Nato. S prvim januarjem pa Slovenija že drugič sedi v članstvu kot nestalna članica Varnostnega sveta OZN. Torej bo letošnje leto nekako v znamenju zunanjepolitičnih, pa tudi varnostnih izzivov. Zato bom začel z vami, gospa ministrica. Pred začetkom, pred vstopom v Evropsko unijo pred 20 leti so bila pričakovanja velika. Spominjam se evforije kot novinar. Verjetno se tudi sami spominjate tega in takrat je veljal kar velik konsenz za vstop v Evropsko unijo. Kje pa smo s tem danes? Po zadnji raziskavi recimo Eurobarometra, ki meri javno mnenje v Evropski uniji, kaže, da se prebivalci Slovenije počutimo državljane Evropske unije. Vendar pa evropske institucije na splošno, bom rekel, izgubljajo nekako naše zaupanje. Kakšno je vaše mnenje v tem trenutku o Evropski uniji in vlogi Slovenije v njej?

Ministrica za zunanje in evropske zadeve Tanja Fajon: Ja, zagotovo je Evropska unija dala Sloveniji veliko priložnosti z vstopom v skupni trg, z odpravo notranjih kontrol na mejah, z možnostmi izmenjave študentov, za ljudi, da vstopajo na ta prosti trg. Skratka, jaz bi rekla, da če gledamo samo gospodarsko sliko, da se je močno povečal bruto družbeni proizvod na prebivalca, da so se odprle priložnosti za gospodarstvo. In to vse je ne samo del Evropske unije, tistih vrednot, človekove pravice, demokracija, solidarnost, ampak tudi to, da delimo te vrednote, mir, svobodo, kar je temelj evropskega povezovanja. In če pogledamo samo tiste zadnje katastrofalne avgustovske poplave, ki smo jih Slovenke in Slovenci doživeli. Solidarnost je bila ključna beseda in solidarnost omenjam zato, ker smo ravno iz EU, pa tudi od sosednjih držav, dobili izjemno veliko pomoči. Torej Evropska unija je prostor varnosti, svobode, pravic, in seveda jih moramo znati živeti, negovati in k temu bazenu vrednot tudi prispevati. 

Voditelj: Prav. Bomo pa seveda tudi odprli kakšno od tem znotraj Evropske unije, ki je dilema vseh držav članic, v zvezi s prihodnostjo. Gospod Šarec, po svetovnem indeksu miru se je Slovenija leta 2022 uvrstila med najmirnejše države na svetu. Smo na sedmem mestu med 163 državami sveta in pa na petem mestu znotraj Evropske unije. Če se malo pošalim, to pomeni, da pravzaprav obrambni minister nima veliko dela. 

Minister za obrambo Marjan Šarec: Ja, to je seveda razveseljiv podatek, da smo prepoznani kot mirna država, da smo država, ki je tudi varna država, da se državljanke in državljani počutijo varne. Pa vendar to ne pomeni, da moramo spati na obrambnem področju, kajti smo del zveze Nato. Kot ste pravilno ugotovili, pred 20 leti smo se odločili, da bomo vstopili v to integracijo tudi na referendumu in kot člani zveze NATO. To lahko primerjamo z življenjem v večstanovanjski hiši. Se pravi, moramo poskrbeti tako za streho, za najvišje nadstropje, kot tudi za najnižje, in zato moramo tudi vsi prispevati. In zagotovo, če spremljamo, kaj se dogaja recimo na Švedskem, kako se celo govori o pripravah na vojno in podobne zadeve. Seveda moramo delati vse, da Slovenija tudi ostane država, ki bo prepoznana kot mirna, ki bo prepoznana kot varna. To pa pomeni, da moramo vlagati v modernizacijo Slovenske vojske, kar že delamo. Kajti vojska je temelj ali pa eden izmed temeljev nacionalne varnosti. To smo v preteklih letih nekoliko zanemarili, zato je prav, da vlagamo v modernizacijo. Se pravi, imamo dva ključna cilja. Eno je modernizacija Slovenske vojske, drugo je pridobivanje kadrov. 

Voditelj: O tem bomo skozi pogovor podrobneje. In na ta način bomo ostali tudi med temi državami, ki so najvarnejše za bivanje. Ampak če se vrnem 20 let nazaj, omenil sem prej v primeru EU je bila, bom rekel, stopnja družbenega konsenza zelo visoka. Pri Natu je bilo precej več pomislekov. Kakšen se vam zdi odnos slovenskega javnega mnenja, slovenske javnosti, državljank in državljanov do Nata danes, ob izzivih, če rečem milo, ki jih pri nas ponuja svetovna situacija? 

Minister Šarec: V članicah zveze Nato, so seveda različni odstotki podpore članstvu v zvezi Nato. In v Sloveniji včasih slišimo takšne in drugačne glasove, vendar vsak ima pravico do svojega mnenja. Naloga Vlade Republike Slovenije in pa seveda Ministrstva za obrambo pa je, da poskrbi, da smo verodostojna članica zveze Nato, da vlagamo v obrambni sistem, kar sem že prej povedal. In to je bistveno, kajti obrambno-varnostni sistem ima to lastnost, da vlagaš vanj in hkrati upaš, da ga ne boš potreboval. Podobno kot pri gasilcih, saj je zelo podobna zadeva in zato je tudi zaščita in reševanje, ki je pri nas del obrambnega ministrstva, enako pomembna komponenta pri nacionalni varnosti. Kajti skrb za varnost državljank in državljanov je pravzaprav na prvem mestu in oba sistema sta takšna, da je treba vlagati vanju takrat, ko se ni še nič zgodilo. Kajti takrat, ko se nekaj zgodi, je prepozno. 

Voditelj: Samo o vlaganjih podrobneje malo kasneje. Še za vas vprašanje, ministrica. Kako gledate na odnos Slovencev, ne bom rekel do EU. Tu mislim, da ni problema. To smo že načeli, do Nata. Ne mislim, da je to problem, ampak vendarle je skepsa javnega mnenja do Nata v luči sedanjih situacij, kot sem omenil, drugačna. 

Ministrica Fajon: Predvsem spoštujem to mnenje in ga do neke mere tudi razumem. Seveda Slovenke in Slovenci tu nismo neka močna vojaška sila, nam pa zveza Nato zagotavlja to kolektivno varnost in mir. Svet se naglo spreminja, je tudi močno razdeljen. Imamo več kot 50 oboroženih konfliktov in velikokrat se nam zdi, da pravzaprav druge velike velesile vodijo te konflikte. In Slovenija mora tu nekako s svojo držo, se zavarovati in zagotavljati mir in stabilnost. Tisto, kar je naše vodilo v zunanji politiki, je, da smo država, ki zagotavlja svetovni red, država, ki zagotavlja mednarodno pravo. In pa seveda si prizadevamo za mir in nismo bili neka, to sem večkrat rekla tudi s kolegi v pogovoru, ko smo delali kandidaturo za Varnostni svet. 153 držav nam je dalo glas. To pravim zato, ker nismo bili videni kot neka država, ki ima bremena iz preteklosti, ki bi začenjala, vodila vojne. In zato so nam dali veliko zaupanje in pa seveda veliko odgovornost, da bomo s svojo držo znali reševati tudi kakšne konflikte in vnašati zaupanje. 

Voditelj: O Varnostnem svetu bomo seveda tudi podrobneje govorili v nadaljevanju tega podkasta. V tem trenutku, omenili ste že konflikte. Dva, recimo, sta tista, ki nas posebej zadevata, ukrajinski in pa dogajanje v Gazi. Imam občutek, vtis je v javnosti, da se v zadnjem času tudi slovenska stališča, bom rekel, nekoliko bolj artikulirajo. Če so bila v odnosu do izraelsko-palestinskega konflikta prej, bom rekel, anemična. Moja ocena, ni uradna ocena. Se mi zdi, da zdaj vendarle počasi dobivamo neko avtonomno držo. Je to posledica, bom rekel, neke spremembe politične strategije oziroma kako ocenjujete sedanja slovenska stališča v zvezi z recimo južnoafriško tožbo in tako naprej? 

Ministrica Fajon: Mi se izjemno trudimo, da v teh konfliktih, kot je zdaj Bližnji vzhod in ta katastrofalna situacija v Gazi, ko umirajo civilisti, ženske in otroci, ko smo priča grobim kršitvam mednarodnega humanitarnega prava in človekovih pravic, da tu držimo svojo samozavestno držo in Slovenija nastopa v več mednarodnih sodiščih, tudi v primerih Palestine. In tudi zdaj zelo pozorno spremljamo to pomembno zadevo, ki jo vodi Južna Afrika. Jaz si želim, da bi zbrali toliko politične modrosti tudi v Varnostnem svetu, ki danes ne igra pomembne ključne vloge za zagotavljanje miru, da bi čim prej vzpostavili trajno premirje v Gazi, pomagali zaščititi civiliste z dostavo humanitarne pomoči in postavili temelje za mirovni načrt, ki bo vodil do mednarodnega priznanja države Palestine. Seveda ob varnem sobivanju Izraelcev in Palestincev v regiji. Ni enostavno. Ne bo se zgodilo čez noč, ampak Slovenija tu vodi zelo jasno politiko, tudi z obsodbo humanitarnega prava v Gazi. 

Voditelj: Kako daleč bomo šli pri južnoafriški tožbi? 

Ministrica Fajon: Veliko je nerazumevanja v javnosti. Južna Afrika je predstavila svoje stališče, ko gre za nasilni oz. namerni poboj Palestincev, tudi genocid. Sodišče mora najprej razsoditi, ali bo o primeru sploh odločalo. Južna Afrika je tudi prosila države, da za zdaj v postopku ne pristopamo, zato da tudi samega postopka ne zavlečemo. Tako da Izrael je predstavil svoja nasprotujoča, nasprotna stališča. In ko bomo dobili od sodišča sporočilo, ali bo obravnavalo to zadevo, se bomo na podlagi pravnih argumentov odločali na vladi, kako postopati naprej. Še enkrat pa, do zdaj smo bili vedno, ko je šlo za sodišča, zraven, ne nazadnje smo prejšnji teden na vladi sprejeli odločitev, da gremo zraven s svojim pravnim mnenjem, z neobvezujočim, občim svetovalnim mnenjem v sodišču, ko odloča o nezakonitih ravnanjih Izraelcev na zasedenih palestinskih ozemljih. 

Voditelj: Minister Šarec, ob tej problematiki v Gazi, seveda, je Ukrajina, vsaj tak je vtis, ostala zadaj. Nekako zanima me, kakšna je v tem trenutku situacija tudi pri sodelovanju obrambnega sistema Slovenije in Ukrajine. Vemo, da smo se veliko povezovali, sodelovali. Ne moremo pozabiti na pomoč, ki so nam jo Ukrajinci dali ob poplavah. Kakšna je v tem trenutku situacija in kakšen je vaš pogled na vojno in razvoj teh dogodkov v Ukrajini, ki so, kot rečeno, malce v ozadju? 

Minister Šarec: Minilo bo že dve leti od začetka te vojne. Slovenija je že od začetka bila na strani napadene države. Tako je še danes. In seveda mi smo prisotni tudi v misiji EUMAM, kjer naši inštruktorji trenirajo ukrajinske vojake. V Nemčiji se to dogaja, tako da ne drži tisto, kar nekateri govorijo, da smo pošiljali vojsko v Ukrajino in vse tiste podobne zadeve, ki jih poslušamo. Skratka, Slovenija je skupaj z drugimi državami še vedno na isti liniji. Mi smo del te mednarodne skupnosti, smo del EU, smo del zveze Nato in Ministrstvo za obrambo seveda tudi izvaja politiko Vlade Republike Slovenije. In tukaj, kar se našega stališča tiče, se ni prav nič spremenilo. Je pa res, da vedno opozarjamo vsi, ki imamo tudi kakšne nastope na mednarodnih prizoriščih, da tudi Zahodnega Balkana ne smemo pozabiti ob vsem tem, saj zdaj, ko se je stvar preusmerila na Gazo. Zahodni Balkan je tudi območje, ki ga moramo upoštevati. Tudi integracija držav Zahodnega Balkana v evropske integracije in tudi zvezo Nato. To nam mora biti še vedno cilj. 

Voditelj: To je prioriteta Slovenije. 

Minister Šarec: Je zagotovo prioriteta Slovenije in tudi mednarodno skupnost pravzaprav opozarjamo na to, da ne gre pozabiti tega območja, tako da zagotovo, kar se tiče Ukrajine, vemo, kdo je agresor, kdo je bil napaden. In naše stališče je tukaj jasno. 

Voditelj: Ko govorimo seveda o prihodnosti Evropske unije, zdaj ste omenili recimo širitev, ne moremo mimo ocen, ki v zvezi s temi konflikti, ki smo jih omenjali, tudi ocenjujejo, da recimo Evropska unija nekoliko izgublja relevantnost v primerjavi, recimo spopad v Ukrajini, da Združene države vodijo svojo politiko, EU pa dobiva neke negativne posledice tega, ni pa več ključni faktor ali eden ključnih faktorjev. Me zanima vaš pogled na to, ministrica. Je ta ocena pretirana, da Evropska unija izgublja relevantnost pri odprtih težkih mednarodnih svetovnih konfliktih? 

Ministrica Fajon: Zdaj, če gledava globalno razmere, se seveda usmerja zunanja politika, svet, v Indopacifik. Tudi to rivalstvo med Združenimi državami Amerike, Kitajsko na drugi strani. Tudi jaz sem slišala velikokrat kritike, zlasti v globalnem jugu med državami, ki EU očitajo dvojne standarde na račun predvsem našega odzivanja, seveda z ostro obsodbo ruske agresije v Ukrajini. In tu zelo jasno evropsko enotnost z vojaško, materialno, humanitarno pomočjo. Zelo dobro se zavedam, v kakšnih težavah je Ukrajina. Dve leti bo zdaj od začetka vojne v Ukrajini. Ni časa za utrujenost. Tu gre za preprosto razumevanje ozemeljske celovitosti, suverenosti Ukrajine in spoštovanje mednarodnih priznanih meja. In Slovenija bo tu Ukrajini stala ob strani. Po drugi strani pa ko gledamo vseeno odzivanje Evropske unije do vojne v Gazi, do Bližnjega vzhoda, pa so nam marsikdaj očitali kritike. Ampak tudi tu, na tej točki, je Varnostni svet zelo razdeljen. Marsikdo bi rekel, da Združene države Amerike blokirajo tudi odločitve za trajno premirje v Gazi. Zelo kompleksne so zadeve. Jaz si predvsem želim, ker smo uspeli v zadnjem letu navezati stike tako na afriški celini kot na globalnem jugu, da našo politiko odpiramo in smo partnerji, ker so ravno te povezave danes z različnimi deli sveta izjemno pomembne. Tudi regionalne pobude, ki se ustvarjajo, od G20, G7, Bricsa. Svet se povezuje, išče zavezništva. Slovenija seveda deluje najprej za varnost in mir v svoji regiji, a ta globalna zavezništva danes so izjemno pomembna, ker Evropska unija ker EU je tu zdaj, fokus je danes v svetu, drugje. 

Voditelj: Še morda v zvezi z relevantnostjo Nata. Slišali smo, Evropska unija so dvomi o tem, ali krepi ali izgublja, medtem ko pri Natu pa vidimo, dobiva nove člane. Nekako se je zdelo, da po koncu hladne vojne ta vloga ni bila povsem jasno domišljena, dorečena, zdaj pa ne vem, kaj mislite vi. Vendarle Nato pridobiva na relevantnosti. 

Minister Šarec: No, zdaj ste povedali bistvo. Če dve državi, Švedska in Finska, po dolgih letih nevtralnosti se odločita, da bosta vstopili v Nato, ker je to zanju edino zagotovilo za kolektivno varnost oziroma njuno varnost, potem vemo, da je zveza Nato tista, ki nam kolektivno varnost vsem nudi. Seveda pa, kot sem rekel, mora vsak opraviti svojo nalogo. Ampak zagotovo se ti dve vladi nista odločili kar tako na pamet, ampak sta presodili, da je to prava stvar. In zagotovo v družbi narodov ali pa držav, v ki smo v zvezi Nato. Velikokrat slišimo Američani gor, Američani dol. Vendar Združene države Amerike so ravno tako ena izmed članic Z nekoliko večjim vplivom. No, zagotovo je razlika, če si država, kot so ZDA ali če si manjša država. Vedno je tako, saj tudi znotraj Evropske unije je tako, da imamo večje države, imamo manjše države, vendar zato je pomembno, da Slovenija izvaja svojo zunanjo politiko tako kot jo, se pravi enotno. In tudi članstvo v Varnostnem svetu Združenih narodov potem daje glas tudi takšnim državam, kot smo mi. Ker seveda številčno mi nikoli ne bomo mogli parirati. Številke so jasne, ampak lahko pa imamo vrsto drugih prednosti. Če sem prej omenil Zahodni Balkan, tako kot mi poznamo to območje, ga malokdo pozna, tako kot mi gledamo tudi na svet. Mi nikoli nismo bili v zgodovini agresor, nikoli nismo od nikogar nič jemali, kvečjemu obratno je bilo. In zato smo država, ki ima veliko stopnjo empatije. Moramo pa vedeti, da si ne smemo zatiskati oči pred današnjim svetom. In seveda nekateri pozivajo k neoboroževanju, se pravi nemodernizaciji vojske in podobnim zadevam, vendar s tem ne bomo nič naredili, če se bomo mi razorožili ali kakor koli ali drugi. Nekateri pozivajo k nevtralnosti, vendar nevtralnost se pridobi na drugačen način. Nevtralnosti ne razglasiš kar tako, Recimo Švica, Avstrija imata vsaka svojo zgodovino te nevtralnosti in tudi tradicijo, tako da je zveza Nato seveda od tistega, kar smo slišali leta 2019, se še spomnim, ko sem bil na vrhu v Londonu, ko se je govorilo celo, da je Nato klinično mrtev in podobno, je danes seveda zveza Nato na popolnoma drugih razsežnostih in zagotovo vse države, ki so ali pa smo, saj ni bila samo Slovenija, zanemarjale obrambne izdatke. Zagotovo so tudi tiste države, ki smo jim bili mi blizu po obrambnih izdatkih, tudi tiste države znatno povečujejo in države, ki imajo znatno manjši BDP kot Slovenija, so že na dveh odstotkih, nekatere tudi čez. Mi smo še daleč od dveh odstotkov in zagotovo bomo morali v bodoče ravnati tako, da ne bomo mi tisti znotraj zveze ... Ker zveza Nato so države članice. In če se hipotetično nekaj zgodi, bo neka druga članica rekla, zakaj bi mi, ki smo morda revnejši od vas, z manjšim BDP-jem, pa vlagamo v obrambne izdatke, zakaj bi vas pa mi zdaj branili, če vi niste opravili svojega dela? In zato seveda je zveza Nato ta hip v popolnoma drugem, se pravi gibanju, kot je bilo še pred časom, kajti vojna v Ukrajini je dejstvo. Zakaj recimo, je skrb za Moldavijo? Moldavija ni članica zveze Nato, članice zveze Nato vendarle varuje tudi peti člen in so zadeve nekoliko drugačne. In zato je prav, da Slovenija tudi stori vse, da bo kredibilna članica vseh integracij, ne samo zveze Nato, tudi Evropske unije, tudi drugih. In da se sliši tudi naš glas, tako kot se zdaj sliši v Varnostnem svetu Združenih narodov. 

Voditelj: Preden gremo na naše, notranje, domače teme, torej zunanjepolitične, obrambne, ampak s stališča Slovenije je samo, če imate, ministrica Fajon, kaj dodati v zvezi s tem, kar je bilo povedano o Natu. 

Ministrica Fajon: Glede zveze Nato se lahko samo strinjam, da so mogoče tisti časi, ko je bila varnost samoumevna, pa verjetno nikoli ni bila, danes še toliko bolj minili. Ker če gledam, kako se razvija svet za to oboroževalno tekmo, ali nam je všeč ali ne. Pred kratkim sem se pogovarjala v Seulu z nekdanjim generalnim sekretarjem Ban Ki Munom, ki je rekel Kitajska danes se želi tako oborožiti, da bo prva oborožena velesila in da imamo časa 12, 13 let. Ampak ko gledaš to tekmo oboroževanja in ko gledaš tudi na evropski celini nenazadnje, seveda se vprašaš. Ja, to je kolektivna varnost, kar nam zveza Nato ponuja. Jaz bi si želela svet, naivno, brez orožja, tudi brez jedrskega orožja. Vsaj v tem delu lahko rečem, da je Slovenija precej aktivna, da se zavzema. In tudi pristopili smo takoj ob začetku mandata te vlade k stockholmski pobudi za neširjenje jedrskega orožja. Jaz mislim, da ravno v tem delu bo tudi naša proaktivna drža v Varnostnem svetu, da bomo širili pobude, ki lahko kakorkoli ustavljajo tudi širjenje in uporabo jedrskega orožja. 

Voditelj: Prav. Pojdimo nazaj k Slovenski vojski, ki je v tem trenutku v fazi, kot ste že prej povedali, modernizacije, tudi, bom rekel, popolnjevanja kadra. V kakšni formi je Slovenska vojska danes? Ni dolgo nazaj, ko je nekdanji vrhovni poveljnik ocenil, da ni pripravljena, recimo za sodelovanje v oboroženih spopadih. Pa ne bom še zdaj v detajle, ampak v kakšni formi je Slovenska vojska v tem trenutku? Kakšna so vlaganja, o katerih ste prej že govorili? 

Minister Šarec: Seveda stanje, ki smo ga imeli zadnjih deset ali 15 let, zagotovo ni bilo zadovoljivo. In Slovenska vojska z vsemi temi sodobnimi sistemi, ki jih sedaj dobiva, ki jih nakupujemo, počasi gre proti tisti točki, kar ste tudi pravilno ugotovili, da bi enkrat prišli do tega, da ta ocena ne bo več slaba. Ker vsako leto, ko smo poslušali, kako je Slovenska vojska, ne vem, da ima zadostno za delovanje v miru, pa nezadostno za delovanje v vojni. Takrat so bili ljudje, državljanke in državljani, v nerodni situaciji oziroma jim je bilo nelagodno, kajti če to poslušaš po medijih, kako imaš zanič vojsko, to verjetno ni dobro. Cilj vsega je ravno to, da enkrat pridemo do te stopnje, ko ta ocena ne bo več taka. Seveda, za pozitivno oceno ali pa za izvrstno pripravljenost za vsakršno priložnost, če tako rečem, je pa treba marsikaj postoriti. Tukaj se šteje tako opremljenost, se pravi izpolnjevanje tistih zavez, ki smo jih dali že pred 15 leti, da bomo vzpostavili bataljonsko bojno skupino in izvidniški bataljon, potem tudi v kadrovskem smislu. In zagotovo, mi smo zdaj, se pravi od začetka delovanja te vlade pa do danes smo postorili marsikaj. 

Voditelj: Pri kadrih, recimo, konkretno. Koliko je recimo pripad novih pripadnic in pripadnikov Slovenske vojske? 

Minister Šarec: Mi smo v lanskem letu, se pravi v letu 2023, za 65 odstotkov presegli leto 2022. Mi smo že, se pravi leta 2023 se je zaposlilo, mislim, da že 320, je šlo za 320 zaposlitev, kar je tudi posledica, seveda, vseh ukrepov, ki smo jih izvedli, poenostavitev postopkov, tudi zdravniških pregledov. Po domače povedano, prej je nekdo, ki se je odločil, da bi se zaposlil v vojski, čakal približno štiri mesece. Toliko je trajal cel proces in seveda si je vmes kdo že tudi premislil. 

Voditelj: Kaj pa plača, recimo? Vojak najbrž ni prav donosen poklic. 

Minister Šarec: Ne bo držalo. Tudi plače so se ... Seveda moramo ločiti osnovno plačo in pa tisto z dodatki, tako kot tudi v drugih poklicih osnovne plače. Pravzaprav težko govorimo o osnovni plači, ker vsi dobivajo dodatke. Bistveno je, koliko vojak prinese domov, tako da tudi plače v teh letih niso več tako slabe. Seveda bi bilo boljše, če bi bilo boljše, vendar so tudi vojaki del javnega sektorja in tako kot ostali, tako kot poklicni gasilci, tako kot vsi drugi segmenti, policisti, potem tudi pravosodni policisti, govorim zdaj namenoma uniformiranih o uniformiranih poklicih in kot del javnega sektorja, seveda se to vodi v okviru mirovnih pogajanj in zagotovo so plače večna tema. Vendar moram povedati, da tisto, kar danes nesejo domov vojaki oziroma zaposleni, gotovo ni več na taki ravni, kot je bilo to pred leti. Pa tudi ko se opravljajo raziskave, kaj je bistveno za nekoga, da se zaposli v Slovenski vojski, ali še pomembneje, da v njej ostane, plača ni bila nikoli na prvem mestu. So tudi medosebni odnosi, tudi modernizacija nekaj prinese. Seveda, če imaš mlade ljudi, spet povezujem z gasilci. Tudi v gasilskem društvu je tako. Če boš nabavil novo opremo, če bo nova cisterna, če bodo nove obleke, bo tudi več mladih prišlo, če boš pa staro opremo, pa ni tako privlačno. Enako ali pa še bolj je to izrazito v vojski. Danes so tudi novi poklici. Se pravi, imamo tudi vrhunske drone, brezpilotne letalnike, ki jih, mimogrede, proizvaja slovensko podjetje, s katerim smo v okviru izboljšanja raziskav in razvoja, se pravi povečevanja sredstev, odpisali pogodbe in te pogodbe že rojevajo sadove. 

Voditelj: Se pravi, da ima tudi slovensko gospodarstvo posredno ali neposredno koristi od vlaganj. 

Minister Šarec: Točno to in to je ključni cilj vlaganj v raziskave in razvoj, da bo slovenska obrambna industrija, mimogrede, drugo podjetje izdeluje oziroma razvija oborožitveno postajo. Temu se reče projekt Mangart. Vrhunska zadeva, modularna oborožitvena postaja. In kaj je cilj? Cilj je to, da bomo mi začeli sami nekaj proizvajati oziroma slovenska podjetja tako za Slovensko vojsko kot za izvoz. Potem ko bomo šli mi na nek sejem v tujino, bomo imeli tam svojo stojnico in bomo tudi mi končno začeli nekaj prodajati. Tako kot je v preteklosti pravzaprav že bilo. Saj mi smo v preteklosti to imeli močno razvito, pa smo potem zanemarili. Zdaj počasi spet to oživljamo. Skratka, če se vrneva h kadrom … 

Voditelj: Čisto na kratko. 

Minister Šarec: Vsi ti dejavniki, ki sem jih zdaj naštel, pripomorejo k temu, da je tudi več zaposlitev. In pa čas od ideje do zaposlitve smo s štirih mesecev skrajšali na tri tedne. Potrebujemo vse segmente poklicev. Potrebujemo od operaterjev dronov, brezpilotnikov, najbolj vrhunskih modernih sistemov do navadnega pehotnika. In seveda delamo vse v tej smeri. Je pa naš velik problem, to pa moram povedati, so pa upokojitve. Mi imamo toliko upokojitev, da če bi upokojitve všteli, imamo mi že zdaj pozitiven trend, ampak če pa prištejemo upokojitve, pa seveda je še vedno pripad premajhen in pa močno se ukvarjamo tudi s tem, zakaj tisti, ki odidejo iz vojske, zakaj odidejo. Tukaj je pa več faktorjev. Tudi medosebni odnosi, tudi druge stvari, tako da dela na tem področju, kako priti do ljudi … 

Voditelj: … ali pa izzivov … 

Minister Šarec: … kako priti do tiste točke, ko sva rekla prej, da bo ta ocena pozitivna in da bodo državljanke in državljani zadovoljni, je veliko. Ampak seveda, Slovenska vojska se je lani tudi izkazala v poplavah. 

Voditelj: O tem bomo še ob koncu oddaje nekaj rekli. 

Minister Šarec: Je tudi plod tega, da prvič, da jo imamo in da jo tudi usposabljamo. Usposabljamo tudi za mirovne namene. 

Voditelj: Gremo na drugo zelo pomembno temo oziroma, bom rekel, v naslednjih dveh letih zelo pomembno temo. Seveda članstvo Slovenije v Varnostnem svetu OZN naslednji dve leti. Torej bo Slovenija vsaj nominalno blizu, bom rekel, svetovnim centrom odločanja. Vendar pa v razmerah, ki niso povsem normalne, recimo v Varnostnem Svetu sedi članica, Rusija, ki je agresor. Tudi človekove pravice in vse druge pravice iz listin OZN si članice Varnostnega sveta razlagajo drugače. Kakšno pozicijo bo tu, kakšen slalom, če uporabim smučarski izraz, bo tu uporabila oziroma izvajala Slovenija? 

Ministrica Fajon: Ja, predvsem bo zelo pomembno, da se znamo z vsemi pogovarjati. Varnostni svet je pet. Omenili ste, kakšne so težave v Varnostnem svetu z Rusijo kot agresorico, in tudi z blokadami. V samem Varnostnem svetu je izjemno težko najti soglasje, ampak pomembno vlogo pa igra deset nestalnih članic Varnostnega sveta, kjer jaz mislim, da je predvsem v zadnjem času pomembno, da se deset držav med sabo pogovarja tudi, seveda, z ostalimi, ampak lahko tudi naredijo preobrat v samem glasovanju, tako da mi imamo stike z vsemi, tudi z na novo izvoljenimi nestalnimi članicami. Bo pa Slovenija tradicionalno zagovarjala Listino Združenih narodov, mednarodno pravo, torej to svetovno ureditev, multilateralizem, ki seveda glede na razmere v svetu potrebuje nek nov razmislek, kako na dane razmere in neravnovesja delovati. Eno, drugo je seveda reforma Varnostnega sveta. Kako narediti organizacijo bolj učinkovito in da lahko dela tisto, kar je njeno osnovno poslanstvo, varnost in mir? In to bo naloga Slovenije. Mi bomo seveda sodelovali zlasti pri temah, ki zadevajo neposredno našo soseščino. Zagotovo nas bodo veliko spraševali za mnenje, kako ustaviti rusko agresijo, kako končati vojno v Ukrajini. Zahodni Balkan je tu ena od zadev, ki jo zelo dobro razumemo, poznamo. Kako tu zagotavljati mir in varnost? Potem bo tema voda. Ena redkih držav smo, ki imamo vodo v ustavi in skozi vodno diplomacijo lahko preprečujemo konflikte, zaščitimo civiliste, ženske. Mir, varnost, veliko je tem, kjer bomo ... Otrokove pravice, zaščita otrok, kjer se je Slovenija že profilirala v zadnjem obdobju, tudi tradicionalno, dlje časa. Človekove pravice in na tem bomo delali naprej. Predvsem znali poslušati, slišati in potem iskati ključne skupne točke, da bomo gradili mir. 

Voditelj: Omenili ste že potrebno reformo Varnostnega sveta. O tem, tudi ko sem se pripravljal na ta pogovor, sem veliko bral. Za kakšno reformo si Slovenija prizadeva oz. kako si jo zamišljate? Predvsem seveda v luči tega, da je Slovenija majhna država, bom rekel, ne v tem smislu majhna, ampak nima toliko vpliva. Kakšna reforma bi po vašem mnenju bila potrebna? 

Ministrica Fajon: To so dolgoletne in precej težke razprave. Ta reforma poteka v generalni skupščini. Jaz tudi mislim, da trenutno ni ambicij za en resen razmislek. Obstaja zavedanje, da je treba narediti Varnostni svet bolj učinkovit. Jaz sem večkrat rekla v preteklosti, glede na to, da imamo 80, 90 % tem v Varnostnem svetu, povezanih z Afriko, brez Afrike. Med stalnimi članicami je seveda na mestu razmislek, kako razširiti, bolj geografsko uravnotežiti VS, stalno, nestalno članstvo, obenem, da ne ogrozimo sebe in možnosti, kako imeti moč odločanja. Tu imamo svoja stališča, priznam pa, da že dolgo ni bilo resne razprave o reformi in tudi glede na situacijo in razmere v svetu ne pričakujem, da bo zelo hitro resna razprava stekla. 

Voditelj: Mogoče še vaš pogled na članstvo Slovenije v Varnostnem svetu OZN? S stališča, seveda, položaja, ki ga imate. 

Minister Šarec: No, tukaj v bistvu naše ministrstvo izvaja, kot sem rekel, politiko Vlade RS in delujemo tako, da kolikor imamo zunanjepolitičnih stikov, delujemo usklajeno z drugimi dejavniki zunanje politike in z Ministrstvom za zunanje zadeve. In mislim, da je ta hip slovenska zunanja politika usklajena. Da vemo, kaj ... 

Voditelj: Kar ni vedno primer. 

Minister Šarec: Ja, v preteklosti je bilo vse sorte. Ampak sem vesel, da je zdaj drugače in da smo usklajeni. In tudi z našega vidika je prav, da se temu pridružujemo in da pravzaprav sledimo usmeritvam tudi Državnega zbora, Vlade RS. In tukaj je to edina prava pot. Prav. Prej ste omenili modernizacijo in vlogo Slovenske vojske v tej modernizaciji, pa tudi zelo pozitivno vlogo Slovenske vojske pri nedavnih avgustovskih poplavah. 

Voditelj: Zanima me, ker smo zdaj seveda v fazi popoplavne sanacije, ki bo terjala veliko sredstev. Ali ta popoplavna sanacija in ustrezne proračunske postavke, ki se spreminjajo, kakorkoli vplivajo tudi na sredstva, ki so namenjena za Slovensko vojsko? Mislim, če imam pravi podatek, v naslednjih štirih letih 1,2 milijarde evrov. Se bo to kakorkoli relociralo? 

Minister Šarec: Najprej, če še dodam na prejšnjo temo, prisotni smo na vseh mednarodnih žariščih, misijah in v luči Varnostnega sveta Organizacije združenih narodov se že pogovarjamo o tem, da se vrnemo nazaj na Ciper. Tukaj smo že v dogovorih s Slovaško, tako da ta misija na Cipru bo naš prispevek članstvu v Varnostnem svetu. Kar se pa tiče poplav, seveda so zarezale v vse segmente, zagotovo. Ko govoriva o proračunu Ministrstva za obrambo, nekateri pravijo milijardo, ampak proračun Ministrstva za obrambo ni samo Slovenska vojska, za vojsko, ampak Upravo za zaščito in reševanje. 

Voditelj: Civilna zaščita. 

Minister Šarec: Tako, kjer smo povečali sredstva, pa tudi Uprava za vojaško dediščino. Ampak dejstvo je, da se je Slovenska vojska na račun poplav odrekla sredstvom v nadaljnjih letih in pa tudi obrambni izdatki še vedno naraščajo, saj je rast, vendar je nekoliko počasnejša, kot smo planirali, tako da poplave so tudi na to področje vplivale. Vendar na Ministrstvu za obrambo planiramo tako, da ključni projekti še vedno ostanejo v proračunu. Ravno zdaj smo, pred kratkim je bila pravnomočna odločitev, da podpišemo pogodbo za protizračni sistem IRIS-T nemškega proizvajalca skupaj z nemško vlado, se pravi z Ministrstvom za obrambo Nemčije. Gre za projekt vlada vladi, se pravi, tukaj ni posrednikov in drugih zadev, ki smo jim bili v preteklosti priča. Po enaki ceni kot za Nemčijo tudi za Slovenijo, se pravi za vse države, ki so znotraj tega sporazuma. Tako da ta protizračna obramba je ena od prioritet. Tudi za krepitev varnosti kritične infrastrukture. Mi vemo, da imamo jedrsko elektrarno Krško in tudi druge stvari in zato je pomembno, da imamo protizračno obrambo … 

Voditelj: … dober sistem … 

Minister Šarec: Dober sistem. Potem tudi druga modernizacija, ki smo ji priča, se ohranja, tako da iščemo tisti balans med tem, kar smo, če tako rečem, žrtvovali denarja za poplave in pa med modernizacijo, ki vsekakor ostaja prioriteta visoko na agendi. 

Voditelj: Prav. Naš pogovor se počasi bliža koncu, zato morda na koncu samo še nekaj o razmerah doma. Vedno se nekako pravi, da je zunanja politika odraz notranje politike. To seveda velja za velike države, za našo državo morda malo manj, pa vseeno, kakšna je, v kakšni formi, bom spet uporabil športni izraz, je Slovenija v letu 2024? Sprašujem oba, najprej ministrica. 

Ministrica Fajon: Leto 2024 smo ravno začeli. Jaz mislim, da je predvsem naša naloga kot politike, vlade, da v družbo s konkretnimi rešitvami vnašamo eno dobro, pozitivno klimo, eno zaupanje. To zaupanje je zelo pogosto načeto in največkrat, seveda, smo politiki soodgovorni. Veliko vlogo igrajo mediji. Kakšne informacije prenesejo javnosti? Ampak jaz mislim, da smo v dobri kondiciji kot vlada začrtali novo leto, si postavili tudi ena bolj jasna pravila igre. Marsikaj smo se naučili, tudi, kje so naši spodrsljaji bili v preteklosti. In če bomo znali zdaj to investirati v boljše zaupanje, v ustvarjanje pozitivne klime, predvsem pa res delati za ljudi z jasnimi rezultati, smo na dobri poti. Jaz si želim, da bo leto boljše kot je bilo lansko leto z manj katastrofalnih vremenskih razmer ali tudi konfliktov, ki so okoli nas. Predvsem, da bo varno za ljudi in da bodo lahko varno in mirno, z nekim dostojanstvom živeli. To je naše poslanstvo. 

Voditelj: Minister Šarec? 

Minister Šarec: Se pridružujem mnenju, da nismo v slabi kondiciji. Zagotovo ne. Sam se še spominjam časov pretekle vlade, s čim smo se takrat ukvarjali. Takrat se je bilo treba boriti za tiste osnovne človekove pravice. No, danes je stvar popolnoma drugačna in to, in to, da lahko ljudje izrazijo mnenje na tak ali drugačen način. Tudi to je vrednota demokracije. Kar se tiče delovanja oziroma tudi popoplavne obnove in drugih stvari. Seveda, izzivov je veliko. Nikakor ne moremo reči, da smo naredili vse 100-odstotno super in tudi, da bomo v bodoče. Vendar pa vseeno, pogled, nekoliko bolj podroben od kritizerstva in jamrarije in podobnih stvari, ki smo jim priča, vendarle pokaže, da vlada dela, da dela tiste korake, ki jih mora delati. Nenazadnje tudi sredstva, ki smo jih dobili iz Evropske unije. Če ne bi bila dokumentacija tako dobro pripravljena. Nenazadnje še do pred kratkim sem vodil Ministrstvo za kmetijstvo. V tem času smo dobili tudi sredstva na tem področju, tako da mislim, da teh 8,5 milijona je prišlo. Tudi bo šlo v prave roke. Tako da zadeve se peljejo naprej. Ljudje bodo pa vedno ocenili sami. Saj veste, sam sebe ali pa vlado, če se sami ocenjujemo, zagotovo drugače vidimo, kot vidijo ljudje. Ampak načeloma klima ni slaba, klima je v redu in verjamem, da bo zdaj, tudi v bodoče, tudi v tem letu, da bomo premaknili kar nekaj teh izzivov, ki so pred nami, zlasti, kot sem rekel, na tej popoplavni obnovi. To nas bo spremljalo še dolgo časa. 

Voditelj: Tako, prišli smo do konca. Spoštovana gosta, ministrica Fajon, minister Šarec, najlepša hvala, da sta bila gosta v prvem GOVSI podkastu in sta s tem nekako zaorala ledino. Spoštovane gledalke in gledalci, spoštovane poslušalke in poslušalci, vam pa hvala lepa za pozornost. Nasvidenje. 


[ENGLISH VERSION] 

Gov.si, a Podcast from the Government

Podcast host Boštjan Lajovic:  Hello, dear viewers, and listeners, and welcome to the first Gov.si Podcast, prepared by the Slovenian government and produced by the Government Communication Office. The guests of our first podcast are Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Tanja Fajon and Defense Minister Marjan Šarec.

Host: I won't ask you about stage fright since you both come from the media world. You have years of experience with both politics and the media, so I'd like to begin by thanking you for coming. Before we begin our conversation, allow me a few words about the podcast. We're using it to expand our range of communication tools to inform the public about the government's work. In this case, it's not just about informing the public, but also about providing additional explanations of the government's decisions and plans. Our guests will range from ministers to civil servants, but we'll also invite experts and people with experience who may not be employed in public administration. The podcasts will have a range of hosts, I'm Boštjan Lajovic. 

As mentioned, our first guests are Foreign Minister Fajon and Defense Minister Šarec to mark the 20th anniversary of Slovenia's EU and NATO accession. As of January 1, Slovenia is also, for the second time, a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council. Therefore, this year will be marked by foreign policy and security challenges. I'll begin with you, Minister Fajon. Before Slovenia's EU accession 20 years ago, the expectations were huge. I remember the euphoria I covered as a journalist. You probably do as well. There was a broad consensus for EU membership. And where are we today? According to the latest Eurobarometer poll, we Slovenians see ourselves as EU citizens, but EU institutions are losing our trust. What is your view of the EU and Slovenia's role within it? 

Minister for Foreign and European Affairs Tanja Fajon: The EU certainly gave Slovenia many opportunities with the country's entry into the single market, the elimination of internal border controls, student exchange programs, and the opportunity for people to enter the single labour market. If we look only at the economic situation, we've seen a large increase in the per capita GDP and new opportunities for businesses. This is not just a part of the EU and its values, such as human rights, democracy, and solidarity, but also the fact that we share values such as peace and freedom, which are the foundation of European integration. If we look back at the catastrophic flooding that Slovenia experienced in August, solidarity was the key. I mention solidarity because we received substantial aid from the EU and neighbouring countries. The EU is a space defined by security, freedom, and rights. Naturally, we need to tend to those rights and contribute to our joint values. We'll tackle some issues within the EU that pose a dilemma to all members states. 

Host: Mr, Šarec, according to the Global Peace Index, Slovenia is among the most peaceful countries in 2022, ranking seventh among 163 countries, and fifth within the EU. If I can tease you a bit, does this mean the Defense Minister doesn't have a lot to do? 

Minister of Defence Marjan Šarec: I'm happy to hear that we're seen as a peaceful country, that we're a safe country, and that our people feel safe. However, this doesn't mean we can rest on our laurels. After all, we're a member of NATO. As you mentioned, we joined the alliance 20 years ago. We confirmed that in a referendum. We can compare being a NATO member to life in an apartment building. We need to take care of both the roof and the lowest floor. To ensure that, we all need to contribute. If we look that what is happening in Sweden, for instance, and even some talk about getting ready for war, we must do everything to ensure that Slovenia remains a country that is perceived as peaceful and safe. This means that we need to invest in modernizing the Slovenian Armed Forces, which we're already doing. The armed forces are one of the foundations of national security. We have somewhat neglected this area in recent years, so it's only right that we’re investing in modernization. We have two key objectives. One is to modernize the Slovenian Armed Forces and the other is to obtain personnel. 

Host: We'll talk about the details of that later. This way, we'll remain among the safest countries. If I go back in time 20 years, the level of social consensus for EU membership was very high. There was more skepticism regarding NATO. How do you see the attitude of Slovenian public opinion toward NATO given the challenges, to put it lightly, posed by the global situation? In NATO member countries, the percentages in favor of membership vary widely. We hear various kinds of statements about this in Slovenia. 

Minister Šarec: Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The role of the government and the Ministry of Defense is to ensure that we're a credible member of NATO and that we're investing into the defense sector, as I mentioned earlier. This is the key. The defense sector is defined by our need to invest in it while hoping that we won't need it, just like the fire department. The situation is similar, so the Administration for Civil Protection and Disaster Relief, which is a part of our ministry, is an equally important part of our national security system because the safety of our citizens is our number one priority. We need to invest in both systems before anything happens. When something happens, it's too late. 

Host: We'll talk about this later, but I have a question for Minister Fajon. How do you see the Slovenian people's attitude, not to the EU, which isn't an issue, but to NATO, where's there is a different degree of skepticism in light of the current situation? 

Minister Fajon: I respect this opinion and even understand it to some degree. Of course, Slovenia is not a strong military power, but NATO ensures our collective security and peace. The world is rapidly changing and is deeply divided. We have more than 50 ongoing armed conflicts, and we often feel that large powers are directing those conflicts and that Slovenia needs to protect itself and ensure peace and stability. The principle guiding our foreign policy is for us to be a country that upholds the world order and international law, while working for peace. As I mentioned to my colleagues while working on our Security Council membership, and 153 countries voted for us, we weren't seen as a country with burdens from the past, a country that starts wars, so they gave us a huge vote of confidence, while entrusting us with a great responsibility to try to resolve conflicts and build trust. 

Host: We'll also talk about the Security Council later, but since you mentioned conflicts, two of them are particularly relevant: the ones in Ukraine and Gaza. There is a public perception that Slovenia's positions have recently become more clearly defined. If they used to be somewhat anemic regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict, at least that's my impression, we're finally getting a more autonomous stance. Is this the result of a changed political strategy? How do you view Slovenia's current positions regarding South Africa's case and so on? 

Minister Fajon: In conflicts such as the one in the Middle East, and we do have a dire situation in Gaza, where civilians, women and children are dying, and we're seeing gross violations of international humanitarian law and human rights, we're trying to maintain a self-confident posture. Slovenia is part of several international courts, including in the case with Palestine, and we are following South Africa's lawsuit closely as well. I hope that we can muster enough political wisdom, in the Security Council as well, which no longer has a crucial role in ensuring peace, to establish a lasting truce in Gaza as soon as possible, help protect civilians by providing humanitarian aid, and lay the groundwork for a peace plan that will lead to the international recognition of Palestine as a state, with the safe cohabitation of the Israeli and Palestinian people, of course. It is not easy, it will not happen overnight, but Slovenia is maintaining a clear policy, by condemning the humanitarian law in Gaza as well. 

Host: How far will we go in South Africa's lawsuit? 

Minister Fajon: There is a lot of misunderstanding in the public. South Africa presented its views on the intentional killing of Palestinians, even genocide. The Court must first decide whether it will even deliberate on the case. South Africa also asked countries to not join the case so that it would not be delayed. Israel presented its opposing standpoints. Once the Court declares whether it will deliberate on the matter, the government will decide, based on legal arguments, how to proceed. But, again, we have always joined court cases and last week we decided in the government to take our own legal, non-binding advisory opinion to court as it decides on the illegal actions of Israelis in occupied Palestinian territories. 

Host: Minister Šarec, with this issue in Gaza it seems as though Ukraine has been left behind. What is the status with the cooperation of Slovenia's defence system in Ukraine? We have cooperated a lot, we cannot forget the aid that Ukraine sent us during the floods. How do you view the war and the development of these events in Ukraine, which have taken a bit of a back seat? 

Minister Šarec: Two years are about to pass since the beginning of this war. Slovenia has sided with the victim since the start and still does. We are also participating in the EUMAM mission, where our instructors are training Ukrainian soldiers. This is happening in Germany, so it is not true, as some say, that we will send our army to Ukraine and the like. Slovenia is, along with other countries, still unwavering. We are part of this international community, part of the European Union, part of NATO and the Ministry of Defence is implementing the policy of the Slovenian government. Our position in this regard has not changed one bit. But, all of us who appear on the international stage keep saying that we also mustn't forget about the Western Balkans amid all this. The attention has now turned more toward Gaza. We must also keep in mind the Western Balkans. The integration of the countries of the Western Balkans into Europe and NATO must remain our objective. 

Host: That is surely Slovenia's priority. 

Minister Šarec: It certainly is. We also keep reminding the international community not to forget about this area. Regarding Ukraine, we know who is the aggressor and who is the victim and our position is quite clear. 

Host: When discussing the future of the EU, in relation to the aforementioned conflicts, we cannot ignore the assessments that the European Union is losing relevance somewhat. Take the war in Ukraine. The US is conducting its own policy, while the EU is suffering the consequences, but is no longer one of the key factors. What do you think, Minister Fajon? Is it an exaggerated assessment that the EU is losing relevance in these open, difficult international conflicts? 

Minister Fajon: If we look at it globally, the world's foreign policy is aimed at the Indo-Pacific, such as the rivalry between the USA and China. I, too, have heard many criticisms, especially in the Global South, from countries that are accusing us of double standards, mainly due to our response, the severe condemnation of Russian aggression in Ukraine, a very clear European unity, military, material and humanitarian aid ... I am well aware of Ukraine's predicament. Nearly two years have passed since the start of the war. There is no time for fatigue. This is about understanding Ukraine's territorial sovereignty and respecting internationally recognised borders. Slovenia will support Ukraine. On the other hand, we have often been criticised regarding the EU's response to the war in Gaza and to the Middle East. But the Security Council is very divided on this point. Many would say that the USA is blocking decisions toward a lasting truce in Gaza. It is all very complex. Since we have established a number of relations in the past year in Africa and the Global South ... Also due to the UNSC membership. Yes. I would like us to open our policies and be partners, because these relations around the world are extremely important. Regional initiatives are forming, such as G20, G7 and BRICS. The world is forming alliances. Slovenia is striving toward peace and security in its own region first, but these global alliances are paramount because the EU is here, but the focus is now elsewhere in the world. 

Host: Let's touch on the relevance of NATO. There are doubts whether the EU is wavering in relevance, but NATO is gaining new members. After the Cold War it seemed for a while that this role was not very well defined, however, NATO is gaining in relevance right now. 

Minister Šarec: You have just made the point. If two countries, Sweden, and Finland, decide to join NATO after years of neutrality because that is the only way they can ensure collective security or rather their safety, then we know that NATO is the one providing us all with this collective security. Of course, we must each do our part. These two countries did not make this decision arbitrarily. They judged that it is the right thing to do. In this NATO community of nations or countries we often hear: "America this, America that," but the USA is also just one of the members. With a bit more influence. -Well, there is certainly a difference between a country like the USA and a smaller country. The same holds true within the European Union. There are large and small countries. That is why it is important for Slovenia to conduct its foreign policy as it does, in a unified manner. The UN Security Council membership also gives a voice to countries such as ours. Numerically we will never be able to compete, that much is clear, but we can have several other advantages. For instance, few know the Western Balkans area the way we do. We have also never in history been the aggressor, we never took anything from anyone, if anything it was the opposite. That is why we are a country with a lot of empathy. However, we cannot turn a blind eye to the modern world. Of course, some are calling for disarmament, to not modernise armies and the like, but we will achieve nothing if we disarm ourselves. Some are calling for neutrality, but neutrality is achieved in a different way, you do not just declare it out of the blue. Switzerland and Austria both have a history of neutrality as well as a tradition. Since the things we heard back in 2019, I remember I was at the summit in London where it was said that NATO is clinically dead, NATO is now on a completely new level. All of those countries, or rather all of us, since Slovenia was not the only one neglecting its defence spending ... The countries that had a similar defence expenditure to our own are increasing it considerably. The countries with a significantly smaller GDP than Slovenia are already at 2% and some are even over that. We are still far from 2%. In the future we will definitely have to act so that we will not be the ones in the alliance who ... NATO consists of Member States. If, hypothetically, something happens, another MS will say: "We are poorer and have a smaller GDP than you, but we still invest in defence. Why should we defend you if you did not do your part?" That is why NATO is currently moving completely differently than it did a while ago. The war in Ukraine is a fact. Why, for instance, is there concern for Moldova? Because Moldova is not a member of NATO. NATO members are protected by Article 5, which changes things. That is why Slovenia should do all it can to be a legitimate member of all integrations, not only NATO, but EU and others as well, and to make itself heard as it is now heard on the UN Security Council. 

Host: Before we move on to more domestic topics, would you like to add anything to the topic on NATO, Minister Fajon? 

Minister Fajon: As far as NATO is concerned I can only agree that time when safety was taken for granted are even further away nowadays. I watch, how the world develops with an arms race, whether we like it or not. In Seoul I talked with a former Secretary General Ban Ki-moon who said that China wants to arm itself to become the first superpower and that we have 12 or 13 years time. As we watch this arms race, in Europe as well, you have to ask yourself. NATO is offering collective safety. I would like the world without arms, without nuclear arms too. At least in this part I can say that Slovenia is very active. At the beginning of this tenure we have joined the Stockholm Initiative for nuclear non-proliferation. I believe this will be our proactive stance in the Security Council. We will support all initiatives to stop nuclear proliferation. 

Host: Okay. Let's turn our focus to Slovenian army, which is right now at the stage of modernization and filling the gaps in personnel. In what shape is Slovenian army? Not long ago the commander in chief said that it is not ready for battle. I won't go into detail. But in what shape is Slovenian army in this moment and how do you invest in it, as you've said before? 

Minister Šarec: The state of the last 10 or 15 years surely wasn't satisfactory and Slovenian army with all the modern systems that we are buying now is slowly, slowly moving towards the point, as you have established correctly, that one day the grade won't be bad anymore. We had been listening every year that Slovenian army is adequate for working in peace but is inadequate for war. The citizens were put in an awkward position, or they felt uncomfortable. If you listen in media, that your army is useless, it is probably bad. Our goal is to reach the stage, where this evaluation won't be like this anymore. For a positive grade or an excellent condition for every... ...for every occasion, you must do a lot. Herein is included the equipment, fulfilling the commitments we gave 15 years ago to establish a battalion battle group, a reconnaissance battalion, but also in personnel terms. From the beginning of this government's tenure, we have done a lot. 

Host: As far as personnel is concerned, how many new members of Slovenian army is there? 

Minister Šarec: Last year in 2023 we have for 65% exceeded the year 2022. We have already... In the year 2023 we have employed 320 new people, which is a result of the measures we have implemented. We have simplified the procedures like medical exams. To put it simply, before somebody who wanted to work in Slovenian army had waited for four months for the process to be finished. A few of them changed their minds in between. 

Host: What about the salary? Being a soldier is probably not a very profitable job. 

Minister Šarec: This is not true. The salaries have... We have to differentiate between a basic salary and a salary with allowances, like in other professions. It is difficult to talk about a basic salary because everybody gets allowances. Crucial is, how much a soldier brings home. The salaries aren't so bad anymore in these days. Of course, it could always be better, but soldiers are also part of the public service. As well as professional firefighters and all the others, from policemen to judicial police officers. I deliberately talk about uniformed professions. As a part of public service, they are a part of a framework negotiation. Salaries are an eternal topic, but I have to say that what soldiers bring home today is not so bad as years ago. Research about the essential needs for a person to work in the army or to stay in the army, which is even more important, show that salary was never in the first place. They mention interpersonal relationships, the modernization brings something as well, if there are young people. I'm making a connection with firefighters again. If you buy a new equipment in the fire department, new clothes and other stuff, more young people will come. Old equipment is not as attractive. This is even more prominent in the army and we have new professions too. We have cutting-edge drones, unmanned aircrafts, which are produced by the Slovenian company and within the scope of better research and development or increase in assets we have signed contracts with it that have already yielded results. 

Host: Slovenian economy has benefits from the investments. 

Minister Šarec: Exactly. This is the goal of investing in research and development. Slovenian defence industry should ... By the way, another company is making or developing a weapons station, which is called Project Mangart. It's a cutting-edge thing, a modular weapons station. What is a goal here? To start manufacturing something on our own. Or Slovenian companies shall do it for Slovenian army... 

Host: And export. 

Minister Šarec: The export is essential. To put it simply. When we go to a fair abroad, we shall have our own stand and we could finally sell something as it already was in the past. It was well-developed in the past, but we neglected it. We are slowly reviving it. If we go back to personnel … 

Host: Briefly, please. 

Minister Šarec: All factors that I have mentioned, are leading to more employment. We have shortened the time from an idea to employment from four months to three weeks. We need all kinds of professions, from drone operators and experts for cutting-edge systems to an ordinary foot soldier. We are doing everything to achieve this. Our biggest problem are retirements. We have so many retirements that if we deduct them, we would have a positive trend already. But if we add retirements, inflow is still too small. Our big issue is also, why people are leaving the army. There are many factors here. Interpersonal relationships and other stuff. Work in this area, as in how to ... 

Host: Or challenges. 

Minister Šarec: Yes. Until we get a positive evaluation, and the citizens will be satisfied, there is a lot of work ahead of us. Slovenian army proved itself in floods last year. We will talk about it at the end of the show. This was also a result of the fact that we have it and that we train it. You are training it for peaceful purposes. 

Host: Let's talk about another important topic. Or very important topic for the next two years. Our membership in the UN Security Council. Slovenia will be close to the global decision-making centres, but in conditions that are not completely normal. Russia, a member of the Security Council, is an aggressor. Human rights and all the other rights from the UN documents are being explained differently by each member. What position, if I can say so, will use Slovenia? 

Minister Fajon: It will be very important to be able to talk to everybody. You've mentioned the issues in Security Council. With Russia as an aggression and the obstruction in the Council it's very hard to find an agreement. But ten non-permanent members have an important role, because especially recently it is very important that these ten states talk among themselves and with others as well. They can make a shift in voting. We have made contact with everybody. Even with the newly elected non-permanent members. But Slovenia will traditionally defend the United Nations Charter and international law. Global order and multilateralism, which considering the global conditions needs a new reflection, how to act on a given situation and imbalance. A Security Council reform is one thing, but how can we make it more effective that it can do, what is its main mission, namely safety and peace. It will be Slovenia's task. We will primarily participate in topics which directly affect our neighbourhood, we will certainly be asked a lot for our opinions on how to stop the Russian aggression, how to end the war in Ukraine. Then the Western Balkans is one of the issues that we understand very well, we know how to ensure peace and security. Then the topic will be water. We are one of the few countries that have water in the constitution, and through water diplomacy we can prevent conflicts, protect civilians, women, peace, security. There are many issues... 

Host: Children's rights. 

Minister Fajon: Children's rights, child protection, where Slovenia has already made a strong profile in the last period, traditionally for a long time, human rights, and we will continue to work on this. Above all, know how to listen, hear, and then look for those key common points we will build on. You already mentioned the necessary reform of the Security Council, I read a lot about it when preparing for this conversation.

Host: What kind of reform is Slovenia striving for or how are you picturing it, above all, of course, in the light of the fact that Slovenia is a small country? Not small in that sense, but it doesn't have that much influence. What kind of reform would be necessary in your opinion? 

Minister Fajon: This is a long-lasting and quite difficult discussion; the reform is taking place in the General Assembly. I think that now there is no ambition for a serious reflection, there is an awareness the Security Council needs to become more effective. I have said many times in the past, given that 80, 90 % of topics in the Security Council is related to Africa, but Africa isn't among the permanent members, we need to think about how to expand to have a more geographically balanced Security Council with a permanent or non-permanent membership, while at the same time not jeopardising ourselves and the possibilities of having this decision-making power. We have our own views, but I admit, there has been no serious discussion on reform for a long time, and given the situation in the world, I don't expect a serious discussion anytime soon. 

Host: Perhaps also your view on Slovenia's membership of the Security Council? From the point of view of your position. 

Minister Šarec: Well, our ministry implements, as I said, the policy of the Government of the Republic of Slovenia. We act so that... To the extent that we have these foreign policy contacts, we work in coordination with other factors of foreign policy, with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I think that now Slovenian foreign policy is coordinated, so that we know... 

Host: Which wasn't always the case. 

Minister Šarec: Yes, a lot of things happened in the past, but I am glad that now it's different and we're coordinated. From our point of view, it's right that we join this and that we follow the directions of the National Assembly, the Government of the Republic of Slovenia. This is the only right way. Right. Earlier you mentioned modernisation and the role of the Slovenian Army in this modernisation, as well as the very positive role of the Slovenian Army in the recent floods, the August floods. Of course, now we're in the phase of post-flood reconstruction, which will require many, many resources. 

Host: Does this post-flood reconstruction and the corresponding budget items, which are now being changed, in any way affect the funds intended for the Slovenian Army? If I have the right information, 1.2 billion euros in the next four years. Will this be relocated in any way? 

Minister Šarec: Well, first, let me add on the previous topic, we are present at all international hotspots, missions, and in the light of the United Nations Security Council, we're already talking about returning to Cyprus. We're already talking about it with Slovakia, so that this mission in Cyprus will be our contribution to the non-permanent membership of the Security Council. But as for the floods, they've certainly cut into all segments. When we talk about the Ministry of Defence budget, some say a billion, but the Ministry of Defence budget doesn't just fund the Slovenian Army, but also the Administration for Civil Protection and Disaster Relief, where we have increased funds. 

Host: Civil Protection …

Minister Šarec: Then there is also the Military Heritage Administration, but the fact is that due to floods the Slovenian Army gave up funds in the upcoming years. Of course, the defence expenditure is also still increasing. This increase is a little slower than we planned, so the floods also affected this area. But the Ministry of Defence plans in such a way that the key projects still remain in the budget. Recently, we carried out a final decision and signed a contract for the Iris T anti-aircraft system of a German manufacturer with the German government, that is, with the German Ministry of Defence. This is a government-to-government project, there are no intermediaries or other matters we have witnessed in the past, Slovenia paid the same price as Germany, as all the countries within this agreement. This anti-aircraft defence is one of the priorities also for strengthening the security of critical infrastructure. We know we have the Krško Nuclear Power Plant and other things. Therefore, it is important that we have anti-aircraft defence. 

Host: A good system. 

Minister Šarec: A good system. The other modernisation that we're witnessing is being maintained. We're looking for the balance between sacrificing funds for floods and modernisation, which remains a high priority. 

Host: Our conversation is nearing the end, so maybe at the end just a few words about the situation at home. We always say foreign policy reflects interior policy, of course, for big countries, for our country maybe a little less, but in what shape, let me use a sports term again, is Slovenia in 2024? A question for both of you. Minister Fajon? 

Minister Fajon: 2024 is just starting. I think that our task as Government is primarily to introduce into society with concrete solutions a good positive climate, a trust. This trust is often jagged, and most of the time, politicians are co-responsible, the media play a big role, what kind of information they convey to the public, but I think that the Government has outlined the new year in good shape, we have also set ourselves some clearer rules of the game, we have learned a lot, including what our slip-ups were in the past. If we know how to invest that in a better trust, in creating a positive climate, and above all really work for people with clear results, we are on the right track. I wish the year to be better than last year, with fewer catastrophic, extreme weather conditions or conflicts that are around us. Above all, safe for people, so that they will be able to live safely and peacefully with dignity. That is our mission. 

Host: Minister Šarec? 

Minister Šarec: Yes, I agree that we're not in bad shape, certainly not. I still remember the times of the previous government, what we were dealing with then, we had to fight for basic human rights. Well, today is a completely different matter, and the fact that people can express their opinion in one way or another, is a democratic value. As for the operation, or the post-flood reconstruction and other things, of course, there are many challenges. We can't say that we did everything a 100% great or that we will in the future, but still, a slightly more detailed look than just the criticism and whining and similar things we're witnessing, nevertheless shows that the Government is working, that it is taking the steps it has to take, not least the funds we received from the European Union, if the documentation had not been so well prepared... Until recently I was in charge of the Ministry of Agriculture, during this time we also got funds in this area, so I think that these 8.5 million will go into the right hands, so things are moving forward. People will always judge for themselves. The Government judges itself differently than the people do, but in principle the climate is not bad, it's fine. I believe that now and in the future, even this year, we will tackle quite a few of the challenges ahead of us, especially as I said, in the post-flood reconstruction, this will accompany us for a long time. 

Host: We've come to the end, dear guests, Minister Fajon, Minister Šarec, thank you very much for participating in the first Gov.si podcast and in a way breaking new ground. Dear viewers, dear listeners, thank you very much for your attention. Goodbye.