The Hidden Power of an Integrator in Estate Agency

Running a successful self-employed estate agency requires far more than just selling skills and a higher commission split. Holly Boylan, Operations Director at The Avenue, pulls back the curtain on what really makes their model work for agents earning six-figure incomes while maintaining genuine work-life balance.

After starting as an agent with Purple Bricks in 2019, Holly transitioned to The Avenue where she discovered a critical gap: "We had no systems, we had no infrastructure, we had no processes." This realisation led her to step into the vital role of integrator, the person who transforms visionary ideas into practical, executable systems.

What separates The Avenue from other self-employed models is their commitment to honesty about the challenges ahead. Holly speaks candidly about preparing agents for the inevitable "valley of despair" rather than selling an unrealistic dream. "Some really good estate agents are not good business owners," she notes, explaining how their blueprint guides agents through establishing foundational habits that prevent burnout when success arrives.

Technology implementation forms a cornerstone of their approach, with Holly sharing insights about overcoming initial resistance to create systems that now empower their agents through automation and AI capabilities. The investment in proper infrastructure pays dividends as agents can focus on high-value activities rather than administrative burdens.

Most fascinating is Holly's explanation of the integrator role, the person who takes the "first 10%" of vision, builds the middle 80%, and hands it back for the "last 10%" of execution. This balance of visionary leadership and practical implementation creates a powerful framework for sustainable growth.

For anyone considering the self-employed route or looking to improve their existing business, Holly's insights offer a refreshingly honest roadmap to success. The Avenue's mantra "never be the biggest, but always the best" encapsulates their philosophy of quality over quantity, a principle that's helping their partner agents build businesses that serve their lives, rather than consuming them.

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This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Introduction to Holly Boylan

Speaker 2 0:00

Estate NCX, the UK's number one estate NC podcast discussing the future of estate NC, entrepreneurship and business with host Mark Burgess and Rob Brady.

Speaker 1 0:11

Welcome to this episode of Estate NCX. Today I'm talking to Holly Boylan from the Avenue. We dive into all sorts of different conversation. On this one, we talk about how she came into estate NC in 2019 for Purple Bricks but is now working as an integrator inside the Avenue, which is a self-employed model, one of the most successful self-employed models in the UK. What is an integrator? How does it even work? How do you make stuff actually tick inside the company? We delve into the process that she's got into of helping people actually go on the self-employed model and go from nothing to being successful without some sort of delusional conversation in there. We delve into technology. We delve into how to be a strong female in the industry. It's a great episode I hope you enjoy. Okay, holly, thanks for coming in.

Speaker 2 0:56

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 0:58

Are you okay to do the obligatory bit of background on yourself before we start?

Speaker 2 1:03

Okay, yeah, sure, sure, no problem. I entered the industry of a state agency in 2019, very late. It fell on my lap, like most state agents say, and I just knew pretty quickly that this was the career for me. So I was with an online agent purple bricks, dare I say it and then we operated in the most successful territory there at the time and you know some of the guys, my territory operators above me they're like oh, we've got a new way, come and join us. So we opened the avenue estate agents, the brokerage, in 2021. And that's just been me ever since. I did officially start as a partner agent within the model and then kind of having to sit back and look we had no systems, we had no infrastructure, we had no processes and I was like this is what the agents need. So then I moved over to the operational side about two years ago now and just developing the blueprint to make it easier for agents to actually be successful business owners awesome.

Challenges of Self-Employed Models

Speaker 1 2:01

This is going to be a great one then. Because so many times over the years, and more so than ever now, agents I know come to me and say I'm thinking about starting a self-employed model and I'm like you must be fucking joking. But they're like why? Why? I mean look, look at all of these, the avenue, look at that avocado. Look at this, look at that. It's brilliant. I'm like you don't even know how to train one member of staff. You don't even know what your USP is. In the nicest possible way. Some of these people are like very good friends of mine. I'm saying it with love. Can you imagine, like franchise, almost franchising out a system that you haven't yet figured out? So that must have been like a bit of a, a bit of a nightmare when you suddenly figured out like we haven't got any, we haven't got anything in place, like what did you start seeing go wrong? Because you didn't have anything in place.

Speaker 2 3:04

Well, just different level of standards, different approaches, the same questions popping up, but in different versions and different stages of the journey. And now we've got the roadmap, we've got the blueprint, so we know what the agents are going to be feeling before they get there. And I think some parts of them think you're in my mind or I'm not going to feel that way, like we pull them in on on boarding and say you will hit the valley of despair if you're familiar with the emotional cycle of change. And they're kind of looking at me like this is supposed to be all like big and sexy and exciting and you're telling me I'm basically going to fall off a cliff. And I'm like, no, if you do it properly, I promise you're going to those emotions.

Speaker 2 3:42

And I think it's easy to sell self-employed estate agency as this easy to have. Everyone's got to do it. But the truth is that some really good estate agents are not good business owners. So it's kind of finding the line within that because, yes, you are serving the clients, they are right in front of you, but you also operate in the business that is entirely on your name.

Speaker 1 4:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2 4:03

So then, to partner and collaborate with the brand. It just kind of gives you that guiding light. Yeah, sounds a bit corny, no, not good. But to know what to do, what are your options? Do I have to have staff? Can I go VAs? Can I go automation?

Speaker 2 4:17

Some of our partner agents, they want staff in their business, they want to grow. Some just want to serve their customers, earn a really good fee and have an evergreen business. That doesn't look like having staff for them. So it's about educating them on what are the options out there and how can it work in your business. So you know, you get such a different level of standard across the brokerage models and like there's some really big names out there that offer some really great support. But you know, we've recently onboarded an agent and from another self-employed brokerage and I asked you know how did they set you up? What was the onboarding like? Because no, by no means my onboarding journey is not perfect. I've been working on it for years and it will continuously change. And he said well, I got an email and they said to ask the other agents, and I was like I I got an email that said good luck.

Speaker 2 5:04

Yeah, we've all these links and it's like, okay, but what about the education behind that? Do you understand why those things are in play? Or do you just think I'm just going to go list a house, sell it and I'll get paid 75% of the commission? It's not that straightforward, unfortunately. So I think we do have. We owe it to the people that we onboard to be really truthful about how difficult it is, because I think you take people's you know people remortgage. They've got lifetime savings. They're leaving that cushy job of six-figure salary and thinking, oh, I've got nothing to do. That feels quite foreign for people and they almost feel guilty when they first start out and they've not got, you know, eight valuations a day. But that's not why you do it. You do it for the other rewards, but it is still hard.

Speaker 1 5:46

Yeah, wow. So if you look at yourself now and yourself, let's say, at Purple Bricks, in what year did you start with Purple Bricks?

Speaker 2 5:58

2019, back in.

Building a Blueprint for Agent Success

Speaker 1 5:59

Oh sorry, you said 2019, right, so you look at yourself in 2019 at Purple Bricks. Look at yourself now in terms of what you do at the Avenue. Like how does your view on I don't know estate agency, the way it works, the tech, the people, everything? Just how is it different to how it was six years ago?

Speaker 2 6:23

I don't know if we've got enough time. I think my biggest thing back then was relying on customers liking me and I used to walk out of evaluation. I was how old was I? I was 21 at then and I used to walk out. Yeah, they really liked me and then I wouldn't get the instruction, or I'd get the instruction. It'd be almost validating that. And now I understand that.

Speaker 2 6:46

You know peers agents. They don't need to like me, they just need to understand the value that I bring. So it's kind of merged into me understanding what authority know, like and trust means and actually getting the audience's trust, because quite it's easy to sit there and go. They really liked me but but the fee we haven't showed enough value. You haven't eased them enough. But they don't know that to tell you because they're the client. It's like their second time selling their house. They can just tell you very you know one vision, answers of why they're not instructing you. But behind it all is trust. You haven't showed enough reason for them to trust in your ability and to actually know that you're the right fit for them.

Speaker 2 7:28

How I kind of viewed a state agency back then was oh, it's so easy, just do what you've got to do for your clients, like I was carrying more than 60 properties, I was working 18 hour days and I was like this is how it has to be done. And now I look at partner agents in the model who, you know, got three children juggling the whole business, reaching £200,000 a year but then still making it to all the extracurricular activities for the kids. And that feels like such a big win for me because the processes that I help them put in place means to have freedom and work-life balance is actually obtainable, because anyone can go and sell that on LinkedIn or podcast. You know, know, go self-employed for freedom and work-life balance. But unless you have the blueprint to allow you to do that, that's just saying I'm going to go to. I'm going to go do it for any other reason absolutely, because it's a totally different job.

Speaker 1 8:18

Like, like you said, like not all, not all estate agency, obviously, but a lot of estate agency if agency, if you're a lister is. You knock on the door, you make polite conversation, you find some stuff in common to talk about, you try and spend as long as you can like having a chat. What you don't want is you don't want the valuation over in five minutes and then you give a price and you kind of look in their eyes and see if the price is you need to go a bit higher or a bit lower. And then you give a fee and see if, you know, go a bit higher or lower. And all of that is nothing really to do with being successful as a self-employed estate agency.

Evolution from Purple Bricks to Now

Speaker 1 8:56

So, as you say, like, if you just look at, if you're just sold, the idea that like don't do that for that company, do it for yourself and get like much more commission, I that's a bit irresponsible, isn't it? Because it was a completely different job. Like you said at the beginning, who's going to train you on how to do this job? Yeah, you still have to go to people's houses or not if you want someone else to do it, but there's like a million other things that need doing because there is no. There is no incoming valuations yeah, no, no.

Speaker 2 9:26

I used to wake up each day and there'd be like seven valuations. Looked into my diary and I'm like right, I've got to go from this postcode to this postcode and I've got to send my val reports. I've got to chase this sales progression. But that's not talking about, you know, farming my database for opportunities, understanding what's happening with the new trends and the new tech, like starting to learn about AI, because I can guarantee that if I was in that position now with the advancements of AI, I'd be like what does it do for me? I wouldn't understand the power it could actually have in my business rather than just you know, help me categorize my to-do list in my head and tell me what to do where.

Speaker 1 10:00

And I guess you know, if you're just being sent on seven valuations a day, you can just go around and see if there's some people you get on with, because it will work some element of the time right. Some people just like you and they just they give you the instruction if you can come to an arrangement on the fee yeah but that's different when it's your whole business, right.

Speaker 1 10:17

When it's your, it's not just a job. It's like the difference on the fee is the difference between you being able to actually pay your bills or having to put some money on a credit card. Then it becomes pretty important all of a sudden to know how am I going to get to people to pay the right fee? So, with the avenue, how many brokers are working at the avenue now?

Speaker 2 10:42

So our current headcount is 19 partner agents.

Speaker 1 10:44

So 19 partner agents and would you say that they're all what's the right word, they've all got a similar kind of attitude and outlook, or would you say that there's different types in there?

Speaker 2 11:03

There's definitely different characteristics amongst the agent. But what agents? But what we really focus on is the alignment with the, the brokerage's values, because you know their flagship in the brand, the brand on the ground yeah they're also, you know, holding the reputation for their nearest partner agent. We definitely you've got. You have to be careful about those sorts of things yeah, so there's differences with expertise and approach, but the standards are all the same and the core values are always running through that and how do you make sure they've all got the core values?

Speaker 1 11:35

what are the core values?

Speaker 2 11:36

so we operate on growth always stronger together. We uphold the highest standards and we are open and real. So likewise with another agent in the network, but also with customers. So we have quite a rigorous interview process. We also I'm very interested in this profile, so we also disprofile all of our agents. That's not a qualifying factor for us, but that is so we understand what they need from the onboarding week. Because, if you are familiar with this profile, I'm a high S.

Speaker 1 12:05

So there are people that aren't like. Can you give them a bit of an understanding of what that means?

Speaker 2 12:09

Yeah, so essentially your personality will always be led with one of the four colours. You often hear it referred to as colours or like D, I, s and C. So you can do it within like two questions, or you can pay for quite an extensive report but being within like two questions. Or you can pay for quite an extensive report but being leading as an s profile. I'm quite steady. I don't like change. My drive within me most of the time is to people please. So that's why I've always performed well in customer service roles, because I know how to please the customer.

Speaker 2 12:37

But then when it comes to me articulating why this blueprint and this process is so good, I'll just explain it to you, mark, in step one and then step two. But for someone who's a dominant character ie opposite to me on the quadrant they're just thinking I just want the result. Why do I need to do all of these steps if I can just get the result another way? So then I have to sit back and understand how to articulate those steps so they understand what the result is. Because then that dominant character most likely sales people have a high d in them. Dominance because they're results driven. They're sales people, they're good at what they do, yeah, so I have to make it sink in their language.

Speaker 2 13:18

And I'm very interested on how that works with clients as well, because you can go out to, you know, a mr and mrs. Um, mr works in finance, quite a logical thinker. Mrs may be an art teacher. She's quite emotional, quite creative by nature. So when you're delivering the pitch you've got to be speaking to those both characters. You can't just only speak to one, because one, that'd be rude, but also the other one's thinking I don't care what your fee is, you've not said anything that's hit home with me. So you have got to be aware of that. With clients, we do try and educate the partner agents on that as well.

Speaker 1 13:50

Yeah, and if you have just got to speak to one, speak to the missus, because she's the boss.

Speaker 2 14:36

That's assuming, but maybe Okay.

Speaker 1 14:40

So and what about if somebody says right, I'd like to be number 20 in your brokerage model and you sit down with them and you go through the core values and on one of them they say not that anyone ever does, but let's just say that they go. Well, I'm not really sure that's me, but like I'm willing to give it a go, what would you do?

Speaker 2 15:07

Would you hire them? Or I think an element like recruitment for me, like even when I recruit for employed roles within our business, an element is on gut, you, that's the best driver you have within yourself. But also, is it, what do they actually want out of it? Because anyone can come in and say, listen, I want to be a six-figure estate agent okay, but how do you want to serve volume? I want to be a six-figure estate agent Okay, but how Do you want to serve volume? Do you want to be working seven days a week? Do you want a promo on your adverts that you work a Sunday?

Technology Systems and Implementation

Speaker 2 15:31

It's not the sort of agent for us. Our mantra is to never be the biggest, but always the best, and there will be a brokerage model out there for that sort of character, but it's not ours. So it's about kind of giving them the right advice of probably what they think they need to hear. No, what they need to hear over what they want to hear. Yeah, because anyone could be a really good estate agent and operate like that. But for us it's for them understanding the bigger picture, like, where do they want to get to? Because if you ask most of our partner agents, okay, why are you doing this? None of them say the money, it's what. The money is the vehicle and it's what it allows. After that, yeah. So therefore, being a volume-based business for them doesn't match up. No, so that's why we kind of lead it through, never to be the biggest, but always the best yeah, makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1 16:13

I I was on a podcast a couple of weeks ago and I said something similar about entrepreneurs like I've never really met an entrepreneur that is actually bothered about the money. All of them, I think pretty much all of them that I meet, I just just want the freedom, yeah, and like, bothered about the money.

Speaker 1 16:25

All of them I think pretty much all of them that I meet just want the freedom and, like you say, the money is just the vehicle to the freedom, right? So I guess maybe that matches up with what you're talking about in terms of self-employed estate agents. I guess some people must want the money, but do you find that those people are a little bit deluded, like maybe they're in a situation whereby they don't really earn any money at the moment and, as you said, like this just seems like an opportunity that's too good to be missed, because I've seen online that people are earning like six figure salaries. So can I have a six figure salary? Please? Please, do you get people that come and ask that, or?

Speaker 2 17:07

not to be fair. I think our message has quite a good disqualifying factor to it to, to kind of say to those characters we're not the right fit for you. But it's the question a layer deeper for me. Okay, you want to earn that sort of money. What would that money allow for you? Yeah, what do you actually want to do with the money? Or do you just want to keep it in the bank with an interest rate on it, because you can't get there without understanding? Okay, what's the needed process here? What do I have on rinse and repeat in my business? Where do I invest into my business? Because quite often people come to us and say look, I've got X amount to keep me running my running costs because you know completion, I've got X amount to keep me running my running costs because you know completion times, etc. Well, our first question is okay, and how much have you got to invest in the business? And sometimes you see that nothing.

Speaker 2 17:53

Okay, well, how do you expect to get to a six-figure business in year one with just organic growth? It is possible, but it is going to be the very hard strategies that you don't want to do. You know you can do all that for 12 hours a day. That's a free, almost organic strategy. But are you going to be able to do that consistently all year to get to them the six figures? Then, when you've got all of this stock on the market that you're serving, yeah, how are you still going to do free lead generation? Well, it's going to be really hard and everyone knows that you fall off on prospecting. It's going to harm you in 90 days. So they don't often think about what they're actually going to invest in it apart from their time. And you do need money, even if you go the most cheapest way.

Speaker 1 18:32

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's obvious when you think about it, isn't it? It's deluded to think that you would do it any other way. So, now that you've been doing this journey for well, you say you started Purple Bricks 2019. So let's just say, six years on the whole journey systems point of view, that, you think, makes you look at it and go like, yeah, this is what um world-class estate agency is beginning to look like for me it's been pushed.

Speaker 2 19:18

So when we partnered, we obviously joined life cycle as our crm two years ago now two May and at the start it was like you were blowing my mind. I was like, oh, I don't know, I don't have what did you call it?

Speaker 1 19:30

The valley of the?

The Role of an Integrator

Speaker 2 19:31

valley of despair. Yeah, I was looking at this to migrate over and I was thinking right, I'm a bit confused. So how am I going to articulate this out to partner agents? But it's being in the room where I was being pushed was what matters to me, because I could easily sit in, you know, a volume-based business like. I was at Purple Wix and change was like why would you do it any different? You already got x amount of instructions and that did feel really comfortable at the time. But then opening my eyes up to being in rooms where I'm like no, I don't know that or that seems really strange.

Speaker 2 20:04

And now that we've been with life cycle for like two years, I understand okay why I was being pushed at that moment for me to get it now. Because I think on boarding journey I was a bit like how's this going to work? How am I going to get the partners on board with this? This is a little bit harder than what we've been doing before, but now they're starting to reap the rewards of it. So it's always been able to think what I know now is not what I'm going to know in a couple of years. So I really need to open up the opportunity and open the door to people trying to teach me and not just go. No, I'm stuck in this CRM, I'm stuck doing this, I'm stuck doing my vowel follow-up in the same ways, because that will, in the few years, you'll be in a cage and you'll be so many steps behind. It'll be your marathons behind, by that point what was the things then?

Speaker 1 20:48

that where you was initially thinking to yourself like this is, this don't seem right and or this is hard. Oh, I don't know if you're gonna want me to answer no, no, you can, honestly, because other people, but there must be someone there or is about to go through it yeah, definitely the closed api.

Speaker 2 21:06

I didn't really understand what an api was at that point. I'll be real. And then it was when I was going to other things and starting to, you know, everyone dropped in your inbox, got a nice bit of tech for this the next month, and then I was like, okay, closed api. Well, we can't do it. I was like, okay, but why would that be? And now we get into like z 2.0 and the AI and it's like I get it.

Speaker 2 21:26

It had to be closed at that point to keep it all in one database for us to be able to use the AI properly now. And it's just such a journey that you've got to really jump in both feet with and I do think you've just got conveyances, start to get more in it together and get in the kayak and do it together, because I do think that's probably an area of agency that agents do get frustrated with and it's easy to throw mud across the wall at one another, but we've got to work together. So now, with the advancement in systems and tech and the way that we can communicate, you've really just got to be, rather than saying they won't do this, you've got to be like I do it this way. You should too.

Speaker 2 22:11

This is a benefit of this, because when we moved over, you know we was manually changing over data since we'd launched and and I was saying to the agents okay, but I promise you it will have benefits six months down the line, but it's going to take us some. You know we've got to cleanse the data first, we've got to make sure it's correct, and they're kind of looking at me like, why are you making the work harder now? We had a crm. We could book a viewing on it, we could book a market appraisal what else you want from me? And now we're starting to see the rocks come into play. The ai is at use and it's making life easier for the agents. But I had to understand at that time it's going to be hard at the beginning and there's still loads of new things that you do that I'm like I probably need to watch that video a couple of times.

Speaker 1 22:54

Yeah, but it's understanding that we're trying to make it better for them and the customers and they really get that now yeah, it's interesting because even when I listen to you talking about the onboarding and explaining to people it's going to be hard I can see some similarities between the way that our company works and the way that your company is working. There's so many people that I don't know one of our sales people maybe has been speaking to somebody and they've been doing their best to explain it, but obviously they're also a salesperson and they're hoping to get a sale and at some point they'll bring me into the conversation, maybe, and I'll just be like you know 100%, you just shouldn't use us, and I can see our salesperson. That's just like what the fuck? It's just like you've just got the wrong end of the stick. Do you know what I mean? We will take you somewhere, but don't tell us how to do it. That's our job.

Speaker 1 23:48

I think estate agents they sometimes fall into that trap as well. I was just up with one of our clients doing some training and what I was trying to explain to them is like there's only one piece of your valuation that's missing at the moment your credibility, and without it the whole thing just goes to fucking shit, because you sit there in a room with people and you have a debate about how to sell a house and you've been doing it for like what this person had been doing it for like 15 years. Right, you've been doing this for 15 years. Can you imagine, like me going to see a surgeon and him going, you're going to cut this out of me going. I don't, I don't think we should do it a different way. Yeah, do you know? I mean it's just bollocks because you didn't give any credibility at the beginning.

Speaker 1 24:38

The person, just they don't know who you are before they know you came into a state and say yesterday, and so, like you know what, what we're trying to do is we've got a very clear path as where the future goes, and it's it's a bit long-winded to explain every decision we ever made. So we're trying to give people enough credibility so they've got confidence to use as a partner as we go forward. And it sounds like you guys, that's exactly what you're doing. You know you're not sort of staying up going like, guess what? Join our self-employed model, earn 200 grand a year, 100 grand a year, go, just go on holiday whenever you want, and no, it's slightly different to that, but we'll help you get there and we'll show you the real way of getting there, and sometimes you're going to have to listen to some stuff that doesn't sound great yeah, and there's processes at the beginning that you think, oh, do you know what?

Speaker 2 25:28

I'll start doing this when I get busy. But that is your foundational habits we're talking about. Yeah, and that is the stuff that when they reach you know 200 000 pounds a year in revenue. They then come to me and say, but every, all of my foundations are wrong. I'm burning out. I'm starting to really struggle to understand what happens and when with my business. The business ends up running them and I promise you there's only a certain amount of time that you can cope with that, especially with everything else that goes on in life as well. So it's really understanding that those habits need to be formed from day one and, if anything, they can be adapted and changed as advancements come in. But if you don't have that boringly consistent foundation, the business will forever renew and no one can tell me different.

Speaker 1 26:12

I'll never change my opinion on that yeah, uh, hayley, my wife, she told me a great analogy about this which you can use, actually, when you're onboarding people, and I'm I use it now when I talk to people which is like every single journey that anybody ever goes on has got a secret destination. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm just preparing you for the secret destination yeah, it's right.

Speaker 2 26:37

It's right because when they get there, they're like I get it euphoria. I can go away and have a holiday and all my processes are running in the business I've got guess what? I'm on a satellite and, being that was like, I've got a listed I haven't got 60 clients that are on me because they understand, and it also goes with agents like similar. How do we disqualify and qualify part? In my view, self-employed estate agents should do that with their clients. If they're serving everyone and anyone, they're not really true to themselves either.

Speaker 1 27:05

Yeah that's again a confidence thing though, isn't it? That's again that's about coming away from. I'm trying to make sure every valuation I go on people like me, yeah, like no you're not. You're trying to make sure that a certain amount of them pay this fee. Yeah, that's the job. It's not going and making sure everybody likes you. Yeah, so looking forward. Then you mentioned about AI and that sort of stuff. How do you see that affecting your business or just the industry in general, as we go forward?

Culture Building and Core Values

Speaker 2 27:35

I think if you're not going to jump on the wave with it, it's going to leave you far behind and by then it'll be the gap will be too big in my view. I think you need to start understanding what it can actually do now before it actually starts doing those things like we're obviously a leap ahead because we're obviously with you guys at life cycle. But you know even some of my friends who I think are quite techie. I'm like have you used track gpt? And they're like huh. And I'm like okay, I would go to you for, like, tech advice and you're not even using it to make daily life tasks easier. So what are you going to do when it comes into workplaces and it comes into the way that you sell your product or your business? But I can see it going, flipping the tables and making it a lot less human heavy, and the human, in my view, will be kind of the flare on top. You're never going to get away from that reaction.

Speaker 2 28:30

But it's about the agents being propelled by AI and not leaning on AI, I think, because I think you've got to go through social media and you can tell what's being ripped by touch EPT pretty poorly as well.

Speaker 2 28:44

So I'm like some agents get it and some agents think it's just a time-saving exercise.

Speaker 2 28:48

That minute, yeah, but they've really got to understand what you feed the machine matters, yeah, and that's a big journey to take people on when you know, at the same time, they big journey to take people on when you know, at the same time, they're probably thinking social media is a big ass for them because now that has been flung into a state agency and it's like if you're not on social media, you're not a proper estate agent.

Speaker 2 29:06

Well, there's a lot to come in my view and I just I'm quite excited to see where it will be in 10 years time. And even though I can't relate to people saying you know, we used to use a grade two box in a branch, we used to use a hot box in a branch I've never worked in a branch, I would not know those terms, but the way that I did things when I first entered, that would be like prehistoric and I just want to be sat there understanding what they're doing now and why it has benefit, like the things that you guys are doing with Vaseb 2.0, I can't wait until you let me loose with it and then it's just about making the agents understand. This is what we have, this is how to use it, but this is how to benefit from it.

Speaker 1 29:46

You're still gonna have to do push and pulls, but it's knowing when and what to do yeah, how mad that, like literally six months, will make what you were doing on gpt seem prehistoric yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, when before some people have even tried it. Yeah, never even tried it. It's like a supercharged version of DVDs, that sort of. You know, they replaced CDs and immediately became extinct.

Speaker 2 30:09

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 30:12

So, rob, when Rob talks to me about the Avenue and your role in the Avenue, he has made it pretty clear to me that you're the integrator. Yeah, you know some nice title, but really it kind of just means that they've got their head in the clouds a bit. You know, they can dream up ideas, but they're pretty poor at putting them into place. You know, I'll maintain to the end that I invented Just Eat, but like I never did, fuck all about it, so it doesn't really matter, right. And then there's an integrator, somebody who actually gets shit done inside a company, and without those people you can have as many ideas as you want, but nothing ever happens. And so do you think that that's right? Do you think that that's your role inside the avenue? 100%.

Speaker 2 31:15

You're the integrator, 100%. What I look to, jack and james, for my co-founders are knowledge, a bit of reassurance, and you're gonna make no bones about that. But it's the first 10 and the last 10. I need that first idea. Just imagine what it would look like. I will then instantly find every challenge, every problem that we're going to face and pick holes in it, so to speak, and they'll go okay, good challenge, but we can get around that with this idea. In this idea, I then go away, build the 80 and then it's on them for the last 10 to deliver it, sell it, make everyone understand it and really like supercharge it, and I just kind of then sit back, understand what the continuous challenges will be. Where are the problems going to be down the line? And that for me, is like the most enjoyable task ever.

Speaker 1 32:05

I love it. So when uh, at our end, when, not when I first found the our integrator, which was Hayley, um, she quickly realized I was. I was the visionary, but I was also then fucking everything up for her.

Speaker 2 32:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1 32:24

In the sense that I'd go, this is what we're going to do. She'd go awesome and she'd start that. And then I'd come back a week later and go, I've had a new idea. So she got rid of my desk and moved me out of the office. She'd say, well, I've got a team meeting on Tuesday and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 33:25

I'd be like tuesday, tuesday I can't do tuesday, she'd be like you're not fucking coming, you'll just fuck the whole meeting up, yeah, so so what tips have you got for someone who's trying to do that integrator role, and maybe I don't know what? Well, first of all, what tips have you got for it? Just generally. Secondly, like what, if they're they're visionary, or their boss or whoever it is that's told them they're an integrator, is still stopping them doing their job of getting that person out of the way once they're not allowed to throw any new hand grenades in right, you've just given us the hand grenade, so you must have experienced some stuff with that before, whereby it's like you can't let them do this, you can't let them do this, you can't let them do that yeah, we call it a shiny syndrome in our business and um, we've had multiple conversations with jack and james about this and I think it's at the start of the quarter or when we do our quarterly planning.

Speaker 2 34:14

We always commit to the rocks that has to be done. So my mine and my other colleagues first question is okay, well, what's replacing that? If you want this done, what? What is being replaced? Because there's only so much we can do within a certain amount of time.

Speaker 2 34:28

But also, I think the tip is I strongly believe that they have the right vision. I know that I'm listened to, I know that my opinion is valued and I know my opinion's valid, because I've been the agent. I know what it can do or what harms out there. So the integrator has to believe on the bigger picture. I know that even if they come in with these hand grenades and these new ideas, there's probably a place for them. It's just not immediately, as quickly as they want it. So it's then queuing that in an order of priority.

Speaker 2 35:02

But if the integrator and the visionary have a different vision, I can't see it working because I know, okay, I can roll my eyes and say, okay, but we're doing this and we're already near delivery on one point don't change it now. I know that their intentions are right behind it and also they can be told no. You've got to be able to say no as the integrator. And linking back to what I said earlier about this profile, that's quite hard for me. I want to people, please. So that's definitely a development. I'm going on at the minute, but I have to be able to say no, and I have to be able to say no with fact. Yeah, it can't just be. Sounds like too much. I don't know how to do that.

Speaker 1 35:42

It has to be a fact behind it and and what if your vision, like you say, then, if your visionary is sort of starting to change the rules and the vision and all of that sort of thing, is that where you think that you have to, you would need to sit down and have a serious conversation about it and go like this isn't what we, this isn't what we spoke about in the first place.

Speaker 2 36:05

First, though, I'd ask more questions, because what I potentially assume is not correct might not be, and we might have different ideas of what they're actually trying to put in the situation. So I think, first of all, you've got to ask as many questions as you can, because it'll help me understand, as the integrator, what this project needs. Where are the problems? What are we really going to struggle with? But also, as they get asked these questions, they're probably thinking about it a little bit longer than they have previously. So it's a good exercise for both to go through, definitely, but then there is some times where it has to be okay. But you have to understand that all of this is happening as well, because the visionaries in the business don't understand exactly how every small task operates yeah but in my head everything is happening.

Speaker 1 36:50

I'm thinking about everything that's going on day to day that they just think happens yeah but we all know that doesn't know, and how do you get over the ego of like? The problems that I've seen with it sometimes is that sometimes I go and see a business and there's clearly a visionary and an integrator. The integrator somehow feels like I don't know what the word is, but their ego won't let them be called an integrator if the other person is called a visionary, because somehow it sounds like the visionary is important and the integrator is somehow less important, when obviously, as we know, that's probably the reverse of that actually. So I guess, how do you, what could you say to help someone get over the ego of not accepting the role of integrator as opposed to, I don't know, yeah, but I just want to be, I want to be one of the directors. You know, it's like you are one of the directors, you're an integrator, like. And how do you? How can a visionary go find themselves an integrator?

Speaker 1 37:57

because they struggle with that as well yeah, I don't know if I can solve that, because I'd have another one under me yeah, but I mean like you, you, you, you said yourself like you was a valuer, so you came out of nowhere and just became like an awesome integrator into this company. Like where could? Where do they go to find those people? Maybe the disc profiling, I don't know so that. And how does the person swallow their ego to do that? I?

Speaker 2 38:26

think it's easiest to say that you want to be the visionary. But I had aspirations to be that at one time. But I think, especially in my 20s, I've gone on such a personal development journey that I really just reflected on who I am and I'm okay with her, I'm really proud of her, to be fair. So for me to reflect back on where I've really felt like a winner and that I'm doing it exactly what I want to do and I feel go home feeling fulfilled, it's when I've been integrating to get the shit done. That gives me more purpose, more satisfaction than winning a few clients on an instruction. Yeah, like for me now I could not value again because I just feel like an imposter, because I'd feel like I'm not the best at that situation, I'm not the best valuer. But then when it sits there and understand and showing the blueprint to the agents and then seeing them win, that makes me feel like the biggest winner. Yeah. So if you are struggling with the ego, then I think you have to ignore the outside noise that only visionaries matter, because I know that if I was to stop working tomorrow, there'd be so many unanswered questions that might. I wouldn't be replaceable in that moment. So that doesn't soothe me. But what soothes me is that I see it get done and I reflect on when do I feel most powerful and when do I feel most on edge. It's the first 10 and the last 10 for me, like I will go all in on a project and believe in it so much, but then to deliver the last 10 to the staff it's almost like don't know what the best way to articulate it is and then I get all het up and I get I'm like just buy into it guys, whereas I need my visionary for that. But then for the questions on the finer details, when we've got them on the big picture, they never pick up the phone to him over me. It's always me first, because they understand what I do within that process.

Speaker 2 40:17

If you're trying to attract integrators, a dis profile could be a way to go. But it's also understanding, like how do you plan in your business? Because if you have that's how it all started out for me is I was really good at the planning piece. I never said I want to end up in operational management, but the planning piece was so obvious at the start. I was really lucky that one of my visionaries said you know what you'd be really good at, and kind of took me on a pathway to go learn about ops and go learn about delivering that. So I was really lucky, but it I think I would have ended up there regardless because I would have fell out of value, fell out of love with valuing. There would be no two ways about it. It gave me a lot of power at the time, give me a real like boost in confidence, but I always kind of knew I can't. I can't do this forever yeah, that's really interesting.

Speaker 1 41:09

Um, so if you let's just say, I know this isn't going to happen, but in the hypothetical world, uh, sorry, jack and james you left the avenue, um, and you went to a new estate agency and it was nothing like your estate agency, it was the most traditional agency you can imagine. They've got old, you know traditional software, but they've got a bit of ambition and they want to grow it. Yeah, where would you start trying to transform it?

Speaker 2 41:42

First week I would observe. I would do nothing but observe. I would sit with, you know, the busiest person in the office, One to understand if they're busy because of workload, but if they're a busy fool or not, I think we all like to say we're busy.

Speaker 1 41:59

Yeah, you know it's that sexy thing. Everyone can make their day full, can't they?

Speaker 2 42:01

Yeah, and I'd go from the bottom up. I would sit with each individual person in their role, observe exactly how it works, from the lowest paid to the highest paid, and then, after observing, I probably wouldn't even introduce anything new, apart from then looking at the culture, because I think the culture will stop the processes going up the ladder. So you've got to make sure that culture is right on the forefront and we're really lucky with the network that we have. You know we protect the network for the agents. We want to make sure that there's like-minded agents in there to support them and also push them.

Speaker 2 42:36

But if I was going into a traditional branch, I'd just observe, I'd look at processes, I'd look at the time that they spend on certain things and also I'd just observe. I'd look at processes, I'd look at the time that they spend on certain things and also I'd just like to hear opinions. What's the least impactful part of your role that you have to do that you don't see value in Quite often? By asking that question you will understand what to get off your agent's desks that they will appreciate. They will then look at you if you've really done something for me there and then with that time that you've saved. You can then put that into growing. Yeah, it's all right to say you want to grow, but first you're probably gonna have to plug some holes first when it comes to the culture, what do you think the biggest influences on that are?

Speaker 1 43:15

if you look, if you went to a company and was like culture's all over the place, what does that for somebody who's listening to this? I remember when we, when I first started Iceberg, we tried to create a culture by putting some beanbags in our office and having a PlayStation and some drinks, and we thought, like this has got to be how you do it, like this is how Google does it, this is how they recruit them. Right, exactly Right. And what we did we did actually create a culture. We created a culture of people that were looking forward to sitting on beanbags, playing a PlayStation and having a drink. And eventually, when we eventually figured out how culture works, you start to realize, like you can have beanbags and a PlayStation and fridge if you want, but that's not. The culture is irrelevant to that.

Speaker 1 44:06

So for someone who's listening to this that hasn't quite got to the stage whereby, like, they really understand how to build a culture. What might you observe and where would you start in the process of trying to fix it?

Speaker 2 44:20

So I'd ask the staff members what work in there means to them.

Speaker 1 44:25

And they all say something different.

Speaker 2 44:26

They all say something different, but you can generally see the theme that they are saying what they think you want them. They're saying what they think you want to hear. That's a big red flag for me. If you have core values but your staff members cannot recite them and what it means to them, they're not bought into your culture. They're doing a tick box exercise that they've remembered your core value will. That's not going to drive your business, because the only thing that is attaching your staff to your clients is your culture. They're delivering that for you. They're on the phone. They're showing your clients this is what it's like to work in this business. So if they can't recite the core values and what it means to them, overhaul, scrap the core values that you think you've got, rebuild them with the team and make a big song and dance about it that this is a priority. It's not a cash driver. You're not going to earn no money from taking your stuff, you know, away for a week to really work on that. But how they then shine through will connect you with your ideal client in my mind.

Speaker 2 45:28

And obviously it's very different for us because we're self-employed, you know there's.

Speaker 2 45:31

I don't say you've got to start work at nine o'clock or have your birthday off, because that's a big culture flag in the LinkedIn market at the moment.

Speaker 2 45:39

But if you say to them, what do you really value from the brokerage, the people, the way that we are heard, the way that we are treated, the way that we're respected, so we do a round table with the agents and we basically say it's not to moan about singular problems. There's always going to be challenges with a particular property, a particular client, but you bring us ideas of what you think could really drive this business forward and we'll talk about it. And we always promise that we will talk about it. If it's a considered idea, yeah, because it has to power the business even more. So I think that that's a really good culture spot to. If they've got ideas, they care, and the worst thing you can ever do to an employed member of staff is not listen to their ideas because they'll take their ideas elsewhere after you know, shutting up for six months and offering bare minimum contribution, and I've just experienced workplaces where one negative nelly it just spirals.

Speaker 1 46:41

Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. I was talking to someone about core values the other day and, like there was, I was trying to explain it to him and I said, like the best way I can explain it is like you know, sometimes you work with people, they, they do everything they're supposed to do. They hit all their targets. There's, there's nothing you could really fault in them, but for some reason you still want to punch them in the back of the fucking head and you just see their head as a football. Yeah, and I was like that's what core values get rid of. Yeah 100%.

Speaker 1 47:07

Core values. It doesn't make you right or wrong.

Speaker 2 47:11

If you have or haven't got them, then like it's like a self-policing, it's like you're all a bunch of weirdos, but you're all the same kind of weirdo yeah, you create a mini cult, yeah, like in your business, and they are then the ones who are going to spot people not following the culture and not following the core values. They're going to highlight it, they're going to challenge it because they feel comfortable and safe to do so. Like I, I know how you run your business with core values just by speaking to your staff like your, your staff that seem extremely happy when they talk to me and can always go to above and beyond, because I know that one of the core values is as long as you're committed, we don't really care beyond. You're here when it matters and for me, I would want to work in one of those businesses, not one of the businesses that just puts a league table at the end of the month and gives out a six-pack of Stella. That wouldn't do anything for me, but knowing that I can have flexibility in my role and be there and make impact, but then I can choose how else to raise my profile, how else to develop. That really matters to me.

Speaker 2 48:08

Like I said in my you know year review at the end of last year, I looked both my bosses in the face and I said I want to get to a place where I'm that efficient that I only have to work three days a week. Okay, great. How do you get there? What do you need to do next year to get you there? It wasn't you have to work five days, because we're open five days. You know, that's what your contract, what?

Speaker 1 48:26

will everyone else say Nine till six.

Speaker 2 48:29

Oh my God, I'm having a panic attack. It was all right that happen in the next year. What do you think you need from us and why do you want to do that? And I said I just want to have more of a like, a balance with you. Know, I care for my nan and I just want to spend a bit more time with her out of like in the day. I'd just like to be able to take the old lady for a cup of coffee in the day for a couple of hours. Why not? That's my driver. But then that's going to make me look at everything in the business and think, okay, what's too manual? What can be streamlined? Where can that investment go? Because that to me matters more yeah than just saying okay, I want a pay rise of x percent yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 49:04

We've got the whole we. When I talk to someone about it is outcomes rather than output. I'm only interested in the outcome. I don't really give a shit about the output. You know, of course, eventually you might, we might end up working our way back towards the output. If, if you fouled on every single target, then we're going to go back to output. But if you've got some magical method, way of doing it whereby, like you, can go to the gym, send one email and get me the outcome I want, I'm all good with that method too, you know, because they're happy, though and they understand if they've got those core values.

Speaker 2 49:37

If they haven't got those core values, then people weirdly find it confusing because they and then you go back to the person who goes well, I've been here all day they don't know how to make it successful to you in order to feel appreciated in that role, and it's because they're going at it like it's just a job, yeah, but for me, like I am employed, the business is not on my neck, but the business is always the last thing that I think about at night and I always think about first thing in the morning.

Speaker 2 50:02

And I wake up every morning thinking do you know what? I'm really lucky because my friend, you know my friends are developing in their careers and they're talking about managers saying this to them and and I'm like that would never happen in my business. No one would ever treat me like that. No one would ever not listen to me on something that I really care about, and I think I could never do that. I could never operate in that manner because I know what I'm capable of. But you can't put me in a cage about. You know how long your lunch break is at 29 minutes and I come from call centres where I was timed on how I went to the toilet like that. For me, you were never going to get the best out of someone but, that goes back to core values, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 50:42

yeah, because, like you know, you can run a call center and you can run it like that. If you've got the core values to match, then you'll recruit the right people and they'll work like that and that'll all be great. But if they did that, they would find that you were the wrong person for the call center, because you know, for you it's not been about efficient at going to the toilet and having lunch, it's being efficient about what the outcome was at the end of what you were supposed to be doing, right A?

Speaker 2 51:05

hundred percent. Like I was in that call centre and I was taking, like you know, nearly three times the amount of calls that another agent was taking. But it was all on me for you know, call time the next night and it was like, well, if you actually look at the statistics, I'm serving much, many more of your customers. And that was also a business that told me that never make me a manager at 18 because I was too young, even though they were pulling me in to help. So I said see, ya, you're not going to tell me that dead on in the face. It's because my age is a blocker when I'm already helping my seniors and things like that.

Speaker 2 51:34

I'm really glad that I really listened to and seen, because now I know what leadership actually looks like. Downflow I've never sat on a leadership course, I've never gone and sought that. You know. Education I will do, but for me it's about how they feel and that they can approach me and they can say I don't quite understand that. Can you explain it to me, because I don't see the benefit right now.

Speaker 1 52:01

I've got one last question for you and I don't really know if I'm the right person to ask this question. We're in such a I don't know temperamental place in the world at the moment, but I'm going to ask it anyway Because I see an incredibly powerful woman sitting here and I've met lots of different women in the state agency. Um, and I've met some incredibly powerful women in the state agency and I've also I went to the women in the state agency conference in its very first year that they did it. I haven't gone back since. I went there like just to see what it was like being on the flip side of it. I don't go back now, not because I don't like the conference, but I just feel like it's not really my place.

Speaker 1 52:52

So what I've experienced the first time I went to the Women in the CX conference was a really eye-opening experience whereby I was an outsider and I didn't feel like I could raise my hand and ask a question.

Speaker 1 53:04

And I suddenly realized that when we do an Estate and CX event or when there's a negotiator conference and there's like 95% men in the room and 5% women, even if the men are not thinking about it, quite potentially the women are thinking I'm not going to say anything here, I'm going to look like a right knob. It's not my place. So if there's someone out there who's listening to this a female that's out there listening to this, that is in her, she's in her organization and her boss is a male and there's no problem with it. She's all good with it. But she can see that he's a visionary and he's all over the fucking shop and she's pretty organized. How do you think that she could start making her way towards being that integrator and going you know what? Just let me deal with this. How do you think that? What steps could she take to start making her way into that role?

Speaker 2 53:52

That's a good question Because I think that does sit down. That does simmer down for me. On trust, I've always ever since I started working with James in 2019, I've always very much trusted him. But how would I feel so comfortable if I didn't have that have to really understand where do they actually want the business to go to and how can I make them see that taking these necessary steps will get them to their bigger vision. And I think, if you can make someone think that's quite thought-provoking, I never thought about those steps. If I want to get to x by the end of the year, they will automatically look at you as you have something that I don't and I see value in that. And it's not about sex. It's not about you know.

Speaker 2 54:40

There's quite often a theme that you know women can like more structure or women can be more organized. I know some women are an absolute car crash with admin, personal life, professionally. It doesn't just kind of go across the board. But I think, first of all, you've just got to get a bit of bottle and put your hand up and say, but what about this? Yeah. Or I know you want this, yeah. But I think we could get to another milestone that is on its way to this by doing this now and it's understanding what their big goals are and what milestones are needed in the middle that you can help them get to, and then, naturally, from a milestone you can then get to a bigger goal, because I think it's quite easy.

Speaker 2 55:21

There's been a lot of talk. You know I'm very fortunate. I've never worked in a business where I felt like my sex hasn't is an issue. I've always quite felt like it's been a good thing for me. I've always worked with predominantly male characters and that's kind of taught me that no, you will listen if I've got something to say. But also I know that when they say, do you know what? That's not the right way to look at it. I appreciate that opinion and sometimes I really have to think about okay, but why am I so passionate about that cause? And maybe why didn't I articulate it in the best way for them to understand what I really want out of it? Because there's one thing just repeating the, the idea, but it's also re-looking it. Okay, I really thought about this and sometimes, you know, if I look at um, like new things in the business, I will put together a really simple slide deck, because then I'm acknowledging that my visionary characters above me, they need to see it.

Speaker 2 56:12

Yeah, because the snitter picture yeah, I'm talking in this waffle, I waffle, I tangent, I lily pad think is what I say. I go from one thing to another. That's just probably like my brain. But if I put it on a slide deck and I'm like this, then that the visionary is going okay, I can see it. I can see what you mean. I'm instantly more inclined to listen. So you've got to show them first and if they're not going to listen to you, you've got to take that integrator somewhere else and actually integrate, because I promise you it feels really good when you get the shit done that's awesome.

Speaker 1 56:43

That's so good.

Speaker 2 56:44

Thanks so much for coming in thank you so much for having me.