Surviving Staff Issues, Fees & Burnout

What happens when an estate agency owner realizes their business is controlling them instead of the other way around? Chris Ellis of Harrisons Homes shares his remarkable transformation story on this eye-opening episode of Estate Agency X.

Having fallen into estate agency in 2004 and later purchasing Harrison Homes in 2016, Chris openly reveals how he nearly reached breaking point. After experiencing a devastating exodus of staff during the pandemic when five out of seven team members left simultaneously, Chris found himself back on the frontlines, working punishing hours while his family life suffered. "I was an arsehole at home," he admits, describing how the stress affected his personal relationships.

The turning point came when Chris recognized that chasing market share and low fees was a path to burnout, not success. In a bold move, he increased his fee from 1% to 1.5% overnight, a decision that clients accepted without resistance. The result? Harrison Homes now handles fewer properties but generates £30,000 more in revenue. More impressively, they've achieved an 81% sold-to-listed ratio in an area where the average sits at just 51%.

Chris's journey illuminates the power of establishing genuine company values rather than just "words on a wall." By creating a culture booklet that clearly defined both positive behaviors and dealbreakers, he transformed his recruitment process and team dynamics. Today, team members regularly acknowledge each other for demonstrating these values, strengthening the culture from within.

Perhaps most significantly, Chris has successfully transitioned from working in the business to working on it. He now takes pride in seeing glowing client reviews that don't mention him by name, evidence of a well-functioning team that no longer depends on his constant presence. As he looks to the future, Chris believes technology will reshape estate agency, eliminating administrative roles while elevating the importance of quality client representatives.

Whether you're an established agency owner feeling trapped by your business or an entrepreneur planning your next venture, this conversation offers invaluable insights into creating a sustainable, profitable business that truly reflects your values. Ready to steer your ship in the right direction?

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This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Estate Agency Roller Coaster

Speaker 1 0:00

EstateNCX, the UK's number one estate agency podcast discussing the future of estate agency, entrepreneurship and business. I'm your host, mark Burgess and Rob Brady.

Speaker 2 0:11

Welcome to this episode of EstateNCX. Today I'm talking to Chris Ellis from Harrison Homes. Chris has been on a rollercoaster journey for estate agency that we started exploring. 2019 was when he actually moved into the ownership of that. Actually, 2016, I think, was when he moved into the ownership of that business. He's been in an estate agency since 2004. And we talk about the roller coaster that he's had with staff, with fees, with market share nearly having a breakdown, how he's come out the other side and how now the company really reflects him and his business. It charges what he wants them to charge. It works how he wants them to work. He gets to work on the business rather than in the business, and we talk about how he managed to get there and what he's going to do going forward over the course of the next five years.

Speaker 2 0:58

Chris, yes, thanks for coming back in. You've been on the podcast once before, but I wanted to do a revisit. So here you are again. For anybody that hasn't seen the episode of you before, can you just give us a quick bit of?

Speaker 1 1:10

background on yourself. Yeah, no problem. So I've been a estate agent since 2004. Now I fell into the industry. The very long story short was I was brought into the company in 2012. I ended up agreeing to purchase the company in 2016. There was a whole Harrison's, in the sense that there was commercial and there's two other offices, but it all separated. So when I took over in 2019, and just before COVID, I decided then that I was going to rebrand. It was a slight rebrand. All it was was just changing a slight bit of name and different colors. That was 2020. Uh, been through a little bit of a roller coaster, as you probably well know, since then. Um, but got through the other side.

Speaker 2 1:56

Yeah, and here I am it's a lovely awesome, so we're gonna go on the. We'll go go back on the roller coasters today, if that, that's all right.

Speaker 1 2:02

Yeah, fine, fine, all right.

Speaker 2 2:04

Because there'll be people that are somewhere on it and hopefully, like you know, your experience can help them. So, yeah, you sort of alluded to the fact there that I was going to go on to like you've had a lot of ups and downs with the company, not necessarily from a I'm not necessarily talking from a cashflow perspective. I'm just talking about from an emotional point of view as being the owner of the company, having people work with you that, like you know, you can trust, and then find out that you can't trust them, and then having to revisit why that is, and so on and so forth.

Speaker 1 2:39

So, um, what do you think now, sitting where you are with the company, um, is one of the most important things when it comes to trying to figure out who you should and shouldn't have in your team as a small business good question um, I mean, obviously we're always learning so I suppose, again going a little bit going back before, just give me a little bit more background on me, I fell into the job, I fell into management, I fell into being an owner and at every point did I know what I was talking about? Probably not. When I took over the company, I had no idea how to run a business. I knew how to go and win listings and get properties on, but then to actually sit back and run it was a different ballgame. Um, but again, I was quite happy just being on the front line, just running the business. That's what I know.

Speaker 1 3:49

So I suppose the 2020 um, when covid here that that was a really interesting point because, again, at that very moment in time, I felt I had the team around me, um, covid here I even remember going back to it and I was told at the very beginning of covid, literally get rid of everybody. And I thought, no, nice me, I won't. And then five out of the seven left. So it was just like the first real challenge I had at the time. I felt I had the right team what they just?

Speaker 2 4:22

they just upped and left at the same time, or gradually.

Speaker 1 4:24

A variety of all. It all hit me at the same point, I think, as I said, when we come back out of the blocks in May, it was around July 2020. Yeah, as I said, one of them resigned, went to another agency and that literally was a domino effect. So then we had somebody else, went to a solicitor, somebody retire, somebody then change the route they wanted to do, and at the time I had an apprentice that just really didn't have a clue right of where he wanted to be. Um, so, looking at it then I poorly recruited, really badly recruited but again, what was the mistake that you'd made?

Speaker 1 5:02

oh shit the fan and I had to recruit. So it was just one of those that where I got into a panic mode. It was just a case of right. I go to a recruitment agency and the first person that looked okay, get me someone who can breathe Basically, and it was a really really bad. I look back at it now it was a really really bad recruit. And then, as I said, november 2020.

Speaker 1 5:24

It's really interesting because I look at where we are now. Everything looked rosy and it looked great. But even then it looked really great. We were doing the numbers. We were number one selling more houses than anybody, and then just suddenly it, just as I said, went to pot. I nearly had a breakdown. Then, quite openly, admit it, I look back on that and just think well again how I've come from there. So I recruited poorly. We got sort of through it. It got too much. Then again, I went through another cycle of okay, people left, new people come in, but I suppose I didn't have any set values within the company. So it was all on a whim. You could easily get into the company. That was all on a whim. It was a you could easily get into the company. That was another mistake that I found um. So the right people is the question you asked me at the very, very beginning.

Speaker 2 6:11

I mean I think you probably I don't know at what point you had them and didn't have them, but you have had values in the company before. Was it a case that, like they weren't?

Speaker 1 6:22

they were words, yeah probably the easiest way.

Speaker 2 6:25

How does that so? How does that work? Because there'll be company.

Covid Challenges and Staff Exodus

Speaker 1 6:27

There'll be a company out there now that is where you were that thinks well, we've got values yeah, and I think, um, so I mean, I suppose when you've sort of gone through what I've gone through the last few years, you actually realize how powerful they are to have in a company. Um, and it was again the second point where again, I wasn't at that point right, I thought I had an employee that was indispensable. Really, I've relied on the person quite a bit, um, but then I looked at it and I thought there's a few things that were happening I've got wind of certain things and it got to a point where I won't go into detail on it that person's not here. I felt I needed him and it was quickly. After that I realized that the person wasn't indispensable and I don't think anybody is Bit like right move. Yeah, we're on that journey as well. Yeah, no, it is I know what you mean it's?

Speaker 1 7:22

exactly the same. You feel that you need somebody, but ultimately, hindsight's a beautiful thing, and then from that it was a case of right. I'll get back in. The business Didn't want to do it, I felt I had to. At the point we had a meeting, didn't we? At that moment in time, you helped me with a couple of things, and it was really 2024 for me was about building foundations. What we're all about, getting the right people in. Again, I must admit I got lucky with one employee that I've got. That Amber is. I don't know how on earth it's just come about, but ultimately I look back now and I just think she's absolutely brilliant. She's got the right attitude and it sort of followed on from there, really. But then she's been part of the recruitment process, sort of followed on from there, really, um, but then she's been part of the recruitment process as well, which ultimately helped so where did you?

Speaker 2 8:12

where did you? I mean, I know, I know that you, we did some work together, but I just forgetting the what, the actual work that we did? I mean, in your head, where did the switch happen between you thinking that you had values and how you'd come about creating them? Because you must have been through some sort of learning and process to think, right, yes, I know about this, we need values in our company. And then you must have gone through some process of making them and then putting them in the company, and then one then, and then now you've switched over to kind of thinking like, no, but they weren't real values. Now I've got real values. So what was the process, the first time around, of making them?

Speaker 1 9:38

Going back to. I suppose that they were just words, I think at the beginning. I think one of the key things that I worked on is just working on what a value is, but then also calling out what a value isn't. So I think this is the other thing that I went through. If I went back, probably about 18 months, two years ago, it was again working out the derailing, enabling behaviors on each value. So and have it actually having them down, I had a culture booklet that I designed and that was again sent out to any employee that I looked to recruit prior or any person that I looked to recruit prior. So these are the sort of values, this is what we're going to call out. So I felt with that it, it sort of um, disregarded a lot of those because you you could see from there on in that they weren't really interested, so they didn't even get to the next stage.

Speaker 2 10:23

Yeah, um, because I went. I saw a company, um, last week and I was up doing a talk with them and they rolled out some values and quite a big event. They put a lot of effort into it. And then afterwards, like I was out for a meal with the, the directors, and I was like you know, I mean their company's fucking phenomenal, there's no question about it.

Speaker 2 10:47

But like, just just the values. I was like, yeah, you're going to change all of them and they were like you know, it was like, it was like I just I don't know, they looked like I'd just done a shit on the floor or something. Do you know? I mean because they've just done a presentation to the whole company. But once you kind of really get it, you can see the difference between, like I don't know, just some aspirational values and what really makes up you as a person, can't you? And what really makes up the people that you need around you, rightly or wrongly, like you just need people around you that are like you, right? So how do your values work now in terms of recruiting people, versus when they were just words on a wall?

Speaker 1 11:38

I think another thing that we've obviously gone through recently is again one of the things I actually got the team doing as well, which is working really, really well, is actually, on a week-by-week basis, I'm getting the team to actually call out certain values that other individuals are doing within the team. So this is also breeding again that sort of culture within. But I think it's made easier conversations for me because again, when there's and you know me, I'm quite hot-headed I literally go straight in. It's a case of, rather than actually going straight to the point, it's a case of well, look, this is where the values are. Which side of the fence do you think you're on? Do you think you're this side or this side? And again it's put it back in the employee's ball court, and I think that's, for me, worked really well and when you started to try to climb out of the mess.

Speaker 2 12:25

So you know, let's go back to like 2020, five people left. You're back in the shit. It got busier than ever, got busy to the point whereby, like you're so busy, you're having a breakdown. There's no way out of this. Like you can't get the right stuff, you've had the right stuff and they've left. You're back doing everything and it's got busy, like I'm guessing, like it must have just been, it must just been hell. I mean, what pushed you to the point whereby, like that was it you. You've had enough. You're you're having a breakdown? Was it the people leaving, or was it the busyness of the market? Or was it the fees, or what was the? What was the thing that really?

Speaker 1 13:04

uh, I think it's a catalog of all. I think it was a case of I was an arsehole at home. I wasn't an arsehole, but again, I know my attitude wasn't the greatest. I kept coming home, I was quiet. Um, I think when I look back on it, when I first come into the industry, I always look at, looked at the industry as what's the best estate agent For me at the time. Very naively at the time, I thought, okay, I was the person that's selling the most houses.

Speaker 1 13:32

So, again, going back to a buyer chart, I was heavily incentivized personally by just being that number one. I think that was another thing. That sort of clouded where we were. But then again it goes back to I'd just get anything onto the market, so it didn't really matter about fees. So if I go back to November 2020, I remember it clearly it was a case of we can't keep competing on fee.

Finding Real Company Values

Speaker 1 13:55

We took on far too many properties. We couldn't serve people, which, when I then look back on it, my sort of core focus of why I was an estate agent or why, okay, I didn't want to be one, but then I fell into the industry and it was like that's where I want to be. That wasn't where I wanted the company to be. So then I looked at it and I thought, well, okay, well, I can't be a 1% agent anymore. So we had to change it overnight and we went from one to one and a half and we were doing pretty well up until 2023, when I sort of allowed a little bit of flexibility to come back in the fees dropped, and then I started to see cracks again.

Speaker 2 14:35

Why did you think you started to let the flexibility back in, was it? You lost a few and just thought.

Speaker 1 14:42

No, I think it was. I suppose it goes back to we've had the conversation, because again it was one of those that what's my job? Stewardship? I wanted to then come out of it and allow somebody then to do the value in it do the value in it and do everything else that goes with it.

Speaker 1 15:05

But in hindsight, I probably just left it and thought, right, okay, this is the right ideal person for me to then leave it over. And he was like right, there you go, right, you're now running the business. And really I suppose I could take it back on my part and think, well, actually I didn't probably coach him, or then you can go, actually he was the right person. Probably the latter, however, or a bit of both A bit of both, yeah, um, a bit of both, bit of both, yeah, um.

Speaker 1 15:37

So for me, at the time when I that that, that for me was the, the key indicator. The problem that we had there is because then we were sort of getting to the point where we weren't serving everybody, where the fees then dropped down. 2023, when the market shifted, we made a loss, and it again, for if I didn't have a reserve, then the business wouldn't be there. So it was fortunate I put money away, but then it was a case of right, okay, well, what have I learned? What can we do going forward? And this is why 2024, for me, was a big, big change.

Speaker 2 16:06

Yeah, and so are you back charging the amount you want to charge now.

Speaker 1 16:11

We're back consistently at one and a half percent and we are quite happy to walk away. Where would I like to be based on the sort of figures and what we're achieving at the moment, which I'm actually quite proud of because, again, it's been a real good push these last 14 months? I do we're more um, and we will be more and so what?

Speaker 2 16:34

how do you now go about that process of moving the fees? Is it? Is it just a? Is it just a mindset thing of going you know what I'm going to go and get 1.7, or do you feel like there's? It's not quite just a mindset thing. Like you know, we just have to think about our presentation and how we show the value and how we're going to overcome the obvious objections that we're going to get. I don't know what's the process now, because you've done it once already. You've gone from 1 to 1.5. What's the process now?

Speaker 1 17:07

When I changed the feed then it was shit hit the the fan so it was quite easy to go right. We can't take on any more.

Speaker 2 17:15

We need to do x, x feet and it worked but when you say it worked, like was it literally, like you just said different words, like you said 1.5 instead of one and people continued to go ahead there was no change in what we offered or what we said. Literally, you just said one and a half and people went, okay, yeah, wow. So that was just a confidence thing.

Speaker 1 17:35

And I suppose when you throw it back to me now is you say to me why don't you go from one and a half to 1.7 or 2%? If I'd be completely honest and transparent. There's still things that in the business I feel we need to do, yeah, to be able to go.

Speaker 2 17:51

Actually, I'm quite confident now saying we're too upset, yeah because at 1.5 you had to do it because you just were going to go out of business otherwise.

Speaker 2 17:58

So it was just well, we are worth it because we exist yeah and if we don't charge that we won't exist, whereas now you're sort of saying, like well, we exist on 1.5, but if I give you a little bit more value, maybe I can give you, maybe you pay me a bit more, right, yeah, um, and and and so now? Yeah, so, going back to the question then. So now, what's the process then? How do you go from 1.5 to, I don't know, 1.75?

Speaker 1 18:28

probably me going out and demonstrating it.

Speaker 2 18:31

To be honest, do you think that's something that you you don't want to do um because you want the valuer to build that structure it themselves? Or do you think it's something you don't want to do because you're you're busy doing other things, or um or is it something you are going to do anyway?

Speaker 1 18:51

we will be doing it because I'll be back valuing imminently, because I'll be forced into position of doing it somebody going off and so on, and so it will. It will, it will happen probably in the next month or so. Um, I think also as well, like looking at the change and everything is one of the things I forgot to really mention is is I'm not now on the dance floor. I am distanced, I've distanced myself away, which was a real and you'll back me up on this that was a real, real challenge for me.

Speaker 2 19:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1 19:19

Bearing in mind that I was so front facing all the time and I was thinking this when I actually was coming up on a train today actually because I was like looking. I was actually coming up on a train today actually because I was looking and I was thinking end of last week we had two really really awesome reviews and I'll submit, if I'd have gone back a year ago I'd have been gutted, even if my name wasn't put in there. And I looked back and I was like I don't want my name to be there now, but it's great now that my team are now getting these superb reviews.

Speaker 2 19:55

So so for me it's more satisfying now that we've got to that point, especially for me. Yeah, um, that's it. That's amazing. So, like you know, because when we started what 2024, you started the business accelerator program with us and that must have been a tough thing to decide to do, because you know, as you said, like 2023 was like a bit of a mixed bag year, so then deciding like, well, you know, fuck it, we'll just spend this money on this course and 12 months is a long period of time.

Speaker 2 20:20

It's a lot of commitment as well yeah, um, but like spending that period of time working just on top of the business, because we had that chat, didn't we? Where you mentioned it there, where I spoke about like who's steering the ship for the people listening like what? What we were talking about was like if the if your company's a ship and you are in charge of steering it, but you keep going downstairs to do other jobs, like valuations and you know, sorting out offers and doing this all every minute that you're doing that, the wheel of the ship's just fucking going around on its own and the ship's just going all over the fucking place. Be much faster to just steer it where it's supposed to go. Even if the engine ran a bit slower ie, even if the conversion rate on valuations was slightly, slightly worse than yours, you'd still get there faster if someone was steering the ship. So then, obviously, you committed to this accelerator program. You spent 12 months going over various different parts of the company. What did we go through? Like the sales, the marketing, the processes, the disk profile and all of that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 21:30

So then, looking back on it now, then, now that you are steering the ship and, of course, like you say, all right, people go on maternity leave, you have to step in. That's not so much of an issue, but it's more of a. It's more when it's like, just generally, your job is like anything but steering the ship. So now, looking at it, you're getting these reviews in there, don't say your name. You're thinking like, wow, wow, this is a process now that's taking place without me. You've got some awesome members of staff. However, if those members of staff were to leave, you know how to replace them with new awesome members of staff. There'll be someone listening to this who is, like we said at the beginning, they're still on that roller coaster. Maybe they've just had five members of staff walk out on them. Maybe they're at that point, that point that you were at, and they're just like how the fuck, does anybody get this to fucking work?

Speaker 1 22:22

I mean how I think it was. How do you get it to work? I think it's. I used to see it as failure that when somebody left me and I will quote another, brian mansell was one of the ones that that said to me I should stop getting cut up over it, because he always used football analogies with me, which he always then sinks in, and I think at the end of the day, players are substituted here and there, but then again one player leaves, leaves you replace them with someone better.

Speaker 1 22:53

And again I just looked at it and I thought well, I know, there's companies out there so they've been with us years and years and years. And don't get me wrong, I'd love a team to be with me years and years and years. It looks great, but then ultimately, I've got over the fact that not everyone's going to be with me years and years and years and we're all on our different little paths. So I think it's for me stripping away a lot of things that I've just thought. Well, actually that's fair value. Where it's not, it's just a stepping stone for me to get to where I want to go to and where they want to go to and where they want to go to. Yeah, and even again, I'll quote you as well, quote you as well, even you. You you've said to me in the past, and I can't remember the exact quote, but again it's if you can help somebody get to their destination, then it's looking at that bigger picture yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 23:39

And so like that person who's sitting there just thinking like you know, five members of staff that I thought I had all this. Now I'm back doing the valuing, I'm I'm battle scarred now from hiring five people. I don't want to hire anybody else but I have to hire other people, but I know they're going to be bastards. Like where do they? I don't know how do they manage to get into that mindset that you're in now, where it's just like you know what a little bit more chilled out about it, like I feel pretty confident about how I hire people and I don't feel too bad if they wanted to move on or if I had to get. How, how are they going to get from there to where you are? What happened?

Fee Strategy and Business Profitability

Speaker 1 24:20

Um, so just, I just suppose, looking at that from my side of things, I looked at it from the aspect if I went back to 2020. I looked at it and I thought, okay, well, I've got a little and I've got another one on the way. I don't that that. That, for me, wasn't where my goal was to be there for the family in the day. I don't want to be sitting in there nine to six or six to ten.

Speaker 1 24:45

What I used to work, um, for me, it's more important now for me to be at the family. If I'm there at the forefront doing x, y and z and I'm constantly stressed, I'm not going to be there for. So I don't know, it might be slightly different for me compared to others, um, but then, from what I've taken from, even if I didn't have the family and I knew what I do now, for me, I suppose, when you're a state agent, isn't it? It's either winning or losing. You just look at it and it's a dent on you if you've lost an instruction. Now I just look at it and just think we're not suited, they weren't the right client for us, and this is another thing, isn't it that we've worked on the last year again, knowing our ideal customer, I just looked and I thought, yeah, don't get me wrong. Okay, I don't look at it, I've lost somebody. Now it's a case of well, okay, they're more suited over there, they don't.

Speaker 2 25:31

They just don't want what I'm offering.

Speaker 1 25:32

Yeah, fair enough.

Speaker 2 25:33

If enough people don't want what I'm offering, then I haven't got a business.

Speaker 1 25:42

But if enough people do, they weren't. They weren't our ideal customers.

Speaker 2 25:50

Well, I guess, yeah, you'd reached the point, hadn't you, like you said when we were talking just before, where you were winning it based on fee. So they've got no real respect for you. They don't know how you work, they don't know what the rules of the game are, whereas now you're laying out a very clear set of rules and a very clear price that they'll pay for it. And you would like to think not completely, but it does quite a good job of weeding out the people that see no value in you to at least give people that get they're willing to give you a chance.

Speaker 2 26:23

Obviously, you mess it up, they'll have a go at you. But like, if you don't mess it up, they'll have a go at you. But like, if you don't mess it up, all good. Um, do you think? Do you think that part of that is the difference between seeing harrison's as a valuer and seeing harrison's as a managing director? Because you just mentioned there about, like you know, you take it personally when you lose a valuation and all that sort of stuff, but like owner of the business doesn't valuer does. Like owner of the business doesn't take it personally. Owner of the business understands like 33 conversion rate will be all right, provided we're going out on enough valuations. A 33 conversion rate would do us just nicely. And they're not taking it personally at all because they're not having to sit in someone's front room and then get rejected afterwards. Do you think that there's a big part of it is like that again comes back to that? Are you running the business or are you working as an estate agent inside the business?

Speaker 1 28:09

I think I'm going to go off topic here. It's. It's really interesting because I've just taken on ben, as you well know, and he's come from a corporate background. Um, I'm really interested and I suppose this is sort of the development bear in mind and where we are. I had to allow ben to find out for himself on this occasion. So, um, he's obviously coming in, he's coming from a corporate background and all it was was just list it just for the sake of listing. It doesn't really matter. That's how we got paid, yeah, so when he came over to our side of things it's a case well, look, you're not going to get paid on this and this is how it's going to structure he was like, oh, blimey, I went well, I don't want just listings, I'm not interested in listings, we want sell them, we want to have the right people. So, from him coming from that, fortunately he hadn't been embedded into this corporate way.

Speaker 1 28:54

But there was one client there where, again, the corporate in him was I need to get it on the market, I need to impress Chris. And I just looked and I knew he was going to be probably the worst client, but even so, he was a nightmare. And even Ben come to me and says he's going to disinstruct us shortly. He said the team don't like speaking to him. They see his number and they shine away. I went okay, fine, what are you going to do about it? He said, well, the team don't like it. I said okay, what are you going to do? I'm going to let him me. And he went. Now I understand why you do it this way. Yeah, so it was really interesting. But again he's. But then that's our, our industry, isn't it Not? No, that's a lie, isn't it? Because I know there are other agents out there going to be listening to this. It's not us, but it's just get it on.

Speaker 2 29:42

Yeah, but it's not just our industry, it's like every industry, every small business, everywhere.

Speaker 2 29:50

It's just like it's all done on logic and numbers and you know, if we get as many as possible, if we sell as many as possible, if we do this but actually like the model that people are looking at, like let's I don't know someone like amazon, you know they they're just as much as possible for as long as possible, but they don't even make a profit.

Speaker 2 30:17

But what you leave out of the conversation is that they've got billions and billions and billions of pounds of money to waste while they work like that, you know, until eventually, yes, they become one of the biggest companies on the planet, but most businesses just don't work like that.

Speaker 2 30:35

You know you haven't got billions of pounds and you're probably not going to take over the planet, so you're going to have a small business where you, like you say you want to be able to support your family, not just financially, but by actually being there and like spending time with your kids. You want a nice life. You want to be able to support your family, not just financially, but by actually being there and like spending time with your kids. You want a nice life, you want a bit of freedom and the road to that isn't huge market share and low fees, like that's the road to fucking breakdown right as you've experienced years ago exactly you know, and and that's the bit, I think that's difficult because if you come out of a corporate, in a way way you are working for a mini Amazon.

Speaker 2 31:12

They don't care, they're just going for financial services. Don't give a shit about listings or whatever the reason is. They have some loss-making branches, some profit-making branches. It's not even the same industry as a small independent. So for someone like Ben to see that for himself and it's a powerful story because he can see now this guy's using up our resources, this guy's pissing off everybody in our small team Is this really worth it?

Speaker 2 31:40

Because you know what comes right at the end, he tells you he doesn't want to pay your fee and then you act cool, there's no legal department dealing with it in another part of the country. You personally are now having a row with the guy on the phone. It's like that's the reality of running a small business, isn't it? Deal with people that you like dealing with, that actually like your value. Work with team members that like working with you, not ones that come there because I don't know. I just needed a job. There's nothing else to do. The values thing is a weird one, because it seems like it's something for big corporations like, so American, doesn't it?

Speaker 1 32:19

Yeah, I thought it before. Again, going back to pre-COVID, I was just thinking I can't understand why it works. Why doesn't everyone think like me? Yeah?

Speaker 2 32:29

Actually you find it's it's for small companies, because otherwise, how do you know? How do you know how to employ, like you said, like it's a coincidence or maybe it was just, it was in your head but you didn't realize it. But amber's got your core values and she's brilliant. Yeah, and now there's an actual way of identifying people like that. And oh, yeah, okay, people could fake it or lie or whatever, but like it's not gonna, that's not gonna last very long. You know, it gives you another barometer rather than just, oh, I don't know, you seem all right, let's see how you get on. And, like you say, like they get six months down the line, maybe they're doing okay, you start to feel a bit reliant on them.

Stepping Away from Day-to-Day Operations

Speaker 2 33:08

There's some sort of problem there, but no one's speaking about it and eventually it all ends in a mess. Um. So what about? Um? You know, obviously we're tech, we're a technology company. So where do you see from a technology point of view? Because obviously you've been in a state agency. Now, for what? What did you say? You said you came into it.

Speaker 1 33:30

Two years, no, not 24. 2005. Yeah, 21 years.

Speaker 2 33:35

That's a long time to be in a state agency. You've seen lots of different technology. Where do you think the technology is going to in terms of a state agency?

Speaker 1 33:51

Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:53

Because you've been around lots of different technology as well. Right, I mean, like you know, obviously you use our technology. But putting that aside for a minute, you've looked at lots of different technology. I know you like technology. I know, like you know, you sort of keep your finger on the pulse of what's out there.

Speaker 1 34:08

I suppose and again, I know this wasn't here to be a sales thing for you, but, as you well know, I called you out a couple of years ago, didn't I? Because I was probably at the time I didn't really see, didn't know where it was coming. I think that was the difficulty I had, and I was at the point I looked at all other CRMs. There was nothing there at the time I could have jumped ship, but there was nothing there that was encouraging me to do so and go through the upheaval of it. When was it? Was it last year? I don't know. I think you showed me something, didn't you? And I just my just view just completely changed, because I just looked and just thought, well, where everything's going, especially with ai, um, you've blown my mind with some of the stuff that's coming, and I just look and I think, well, as harsh as it sounds, and I don't.

Speaker 1 34:55

I don't think that we're gonna. I don't think we're going to eliminate people out of a state agency, but I do think there's going to be certain roles within our industry that's going to disappear, for instance, and I think, I think it's a good thing to be honest. I think it's a good thing to be honest, I think it's a good thing for the actual industry as a whole because you're going to have quality people there. Personally, for me, there's not going to be an admin role, there's not going to be a neg role. I think it's just going to be front-facing valuers. If you want to class them as a valuer I don't know why I said valuer I don't class them as valuers. But seen valuers. If you want to class them as a value, I'd never. I don't know why I said value.

Speaker 2 35:34

I don't class this as valuers, yeah, um, but ultimately I think there's gonna be somebody there that's actually gonna go and win the business. Yeah, like a company representative sort of thing.

Speaker 1 35:37

Um, but then, other than that, I do feel there's gonna be a struggle for any other role within the industry. Yeah, um, and I think, unless people jump on board very quickly, I think, am I worried for the corporates? I don't know if I am to be honest, but I do. I don't think the corporates are going to turn it around quite quick enough.

Speaker 2 35:58

I think no, probably not, they probably won't change the business model. But again, like you know, they do have different financial interests. The corporate don't they? You know a lot of them do make their money from financial services and are perfectly happy for the estate and decide to be loss making. That's the problem for independents, because the corporates do, say, list at any price and the independents trying to compete wondering like how are they making any money? It's like, well, they're not making any money.

Speaker 1 36:26

I look back on it and I think where we were pre-2020, we're doing one and a half times less now and we're doing 30 grand more.

Speaker 2 36:35

Yeah, it's crazy, but there's something that stops you thinking that way, though, isn't there, because, like, otherwise, we'd just keep going with it. You know, there's another agent that we both know I won't say their actual name on here, but, like, he gradually has been putting his fees up since the day I met him, and every now and then he messaged me and goes I can't believe it. I'm charging this much, and I'm like you know what I'm going to say to you, don't you? And then he comes back to you six months later and he goes it's unreal. I'm doing this, I'm like you know what I'm going to say to you now, but this it just there. Always seems to be a point in our heads, doesn't there?

Speaker 1 37:15

whereby we get anchored to a certain price and go any more than that would be would be hard. Yeah, I think again I'm going to go back now because, again, it's really interesting, because, like one of the things that I've had from two of my people now that are actually going out and listing properties, both of them have come back to me interestingly and said they're going to up their fees. Now, if I would have said that I don't think they would ever get to that, but because they've been on various courses with me and other agents are talking about increasing their fees, their mentality now is it's not me talking it, they're actually, yeah, empowered to think oh, actually, maybe we can up our fees yeah so it's quite an interesting spin there yeah, it's crazy, isn't it?

Speaker 2 37:51

like there's actually no real difference I mean I. Obviously there comes a tipping point. You know, if you went from, say, one and a half percent to seven percent, then obviously someone might sort of think that's a bit strange. But is there really any likelihood that you're going to get less instructions at 1.6% than 1.5%? Probably not, probably not no.

Speaker 2 38:16

So let's just go 1.6% then, shall we? It's the same with 1.6%. It's such a crazy thing, okay. So last question then we spoke about technology, spoke there about about roles, admin roles disappearing in a state agency and it becoming more of a the people. The conversations need to be had by humans perhaps at this point, but, like you know, uh, putting things into a spreadsheet, the, the artificial intelligence can do it. Um, so, if you do sort of put your future glasses on, where do you hope to take harrison's over the course of the next I don't know five years? For you personally, maybe. What role do you hope to have in in that period of time? And, like you know, what do you hope for the company? Where do you see it going?

Speaker 1 39:08

oh, good question. It's always one of those. I ask my team where you want to be, but I go, I suppose, from my side of things like I, I don't want to be within the business, I just want to be again working on it. I think that's the simplicity of it.

Speaker 2 39:20

But um, so would that mean more roles inside the business of people doing just making some decisions that you would have otherwise had to make?

Speaker 1 39:29

yeah, well, I think if, in fairness, they've literally got to that point already, I think there's still the odd one here and there that they still come to me, but they generally do have the power now to make their own decisions, which for me is pretty good. We're not quite there yet, but ultimately that's where I want to see the business is.

Future of Estate Agency Technology

Speaker 1 39:45

They don't need me yeah um, I not after market domination, to be honest. I think that's quite clear with the type of people that we are. But the core focus within the business, as you well know, is to change the perception of estate agents. And I look back at it now and I think, with the figures that we're achieving at this very moment in time, I didn't realise and I'm quite proud of this, considering where we have been over the last couple of years 2023, we were sitting at four in 10 houses that we're selling. We are now 81% and we're the closest. The average in the area is at 51% of what they're listing.

Speaker 1 40:25

So for me, I'm not going to say we're going to sell 10 out of 10 houses, but I want to be the talked about agent of making the difference. We do reservation agreements. As you well know, we've got one of the lowest fall through rates with the reservation agreement. So I want it to be that we are. We've changed the perception, yeah, I think again, it goes back to where I want it, want it to be yeah, I love it and it's.

Speaker 2 40:45

It's a great journey to watch as well because, like you know, I haven't known you obviously from 2004, but I've known you for a lot of that roller coaster journey and like to see where you are with the business now and to see how the business is operating with amber with, like you know, you've got your hoodie on today and, like you know, just it just feels like your proper company now. It feels like you've put the, the foundations in place of, like your business, the fees you want, get them the way you want, the people working the way you want. You've got your reservation agreements. You're giving the service that people want 80% sale instruction to sale ratio. It's an amazing journey to see and I think it's going to go exactly how you want it to go over the course of the next five years.

Speaker 1 41:27

2024 was the foundations, yeah, and now we're going to push forward. Awesome, thanks, so much for coming.