Built to Last and Brave Enough to Change

What does it take to build and sustain a thriving independent estate agency for over three decades? Mark and Jacqui from Jacksons Estate Agents reveal their extraordinary journey from the pre-internet era through to today's AI revolution.

Their story begins with Mark's humble entrance into the property world, volunteering weekends at an agency after buying his first home, eventually founding his own franchise in 1992. Jacqui, initially planning to temporarily manage the office while Mark attended university, found herself stepping into partnership for what became a 21-year (and counting) adventure.

Running a business as a married couple presents unique challenges, but their approach is refreshingly pragmatic. Operating in different departments with clear boundaries, Jacqui handling sales and team management, Mark overseeing lettings and finances, they've developed a formula that works professionally and personally. Jacqui candidly reveals their secret: "Do what Jackie says and you get an easy life," with Mark adding, "I've got the final say, but Jacqui is in charge."

The technological evolution they've navigated is staggering. From paper diaries and forms to sophisticated CRM systems and now AI, they've repeatedly transformed their business through decisive action. When implementing electronic diaries, they simply announced "there is no diary for next year" and switched off the old system. After six weeks of "tantrums and tears," their team adapted completely.

Perhaps most valuable is their unwavering stance on charging premium fees in an industry prone to discounting. "Absolutely believe you're worth it," Jacqui insists, explaining that they've trained their valuers to overcome fee objections without reducing prices. This philosophy stems from deep conviction: "I absolutely believe I am the best person in our postcode to do that job, without exception."

Looking ahead, they offer a compelling vision of how independent agencies will thrive in the AI era through faster adaptation and maintaining the human connection that technology can't replace. As Jacqui puts it, "When something goes wrong, you want to talk to somebody."

Ready to transform how you think about your estate agency's value, technology adoption, and future direction? This episode delivers wisdom that only comes from decades at the forefront of an evolving industry.

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This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Introduction to Jackson's Estate Agents

Speaker 1 0:00

EstateNCX, the UK's number one estate agency podcast discussing the future of estate agency, entrepreneurship and business of host Mark Burgess and Lord Brady. Welcome to this episode of EstateNCX. Today I'm talking to Jackie and Mark from Jackson's Estate Agents. We're going to dig into over 20 years 30 years of estate agency. With Mark's background. We're going to dig into how they managed to stay sane, working together and living together, the things that they found out about hiring staff and making sure that everybody's working in a company that they actually enjoy, how they keep their fees high, how they adapt to new technology. Hope you enjoy. So, Mark, Jackie, thanks for coming in. Can you give us a bit of background on yourselves? How you got into agency, the company, how long it's been around, that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 0:53

Okay, perhaps if I start that just because I've been in an agency a little bit longer. I got into agency by buying a house. I was, you know, working in the motor trade at the time, repairing smashed up cars. I bought a house first house. I thought I could do that. So I spoke to the people that I bought the house from and said if I was an estate agent, how would I go about it? And off the back of that I started working weekends on a voluntary basis, just in their office.

Speaker 1 1:24

What year are we talking about, I reckon 87. Okay, like that.

Speaker 3 1:28

Yeah just after dinah balls yeah, just after the war yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:33

The ball war, um. So I did that for a little while and then a full-time position came up and they offered me that job and I couldn't afford to take it, because I just bought a house and I was used to being paid weekly and they wanted to pay me monthly.

Speaker 1 1:49

Well, hold on a minute. So you went from, they were going, you were going from voluntary to paid, but you couldn't afford it. Oh, because you still had your other job when you were working voluntary. Right, yeah, right, okay, yeah, yeah so I was on the voluntary basis.

Speaker 2 2:00

I was just, yeah, you know, being a weekend neg, yeah, saturdays and Sundays, that's all I was doing. So I couldn't afford to take it. So I jacked my job in and I went selling double glazing, did that for six or nine months or something, and built up enough money then to be able to make the switch from being paid weekly to monthly. And then I went back and said, right, okay now.

Speaker 1 2:23

I can afford to take the job. They said, sorry, the job's gone, and so that's how you got into estate agency. That's how I got into it. Yeah, and then how did you switch from that to opening your own estate agency?

Speaker 2 2:35

Okay, I worked for this independent agent for a while and then I made a move to a corporate and I worked with them for a while and during the time I was working with them, I started with them in 89, so it was really tough. We were going through a big property recession, lots of repossessions and stuff like that, but the branch that I was in was doing quite well. We were winning awards both as a branch and individually, and I thought, hang on a sec, if I can do this, you know, for a business how hard can it be?

Speaker 1 3:13

Yeah, how hard can it be Famous last word yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 3:19

So I said to my dad this is what I'm thinking about doing, but I haven't got any money, you know. So he said that's all right, I'll sort that out, as it were. And we went off and spoke to the bank and said if we opened an estate agency, would you back us? And the bank said no, I think, because so many estate agents failed. So I went away and licked my wounds, I suppose Then I was talking to someone else and they started talking about a franchise, a Century 21 franchise Went back to the bank and said if I had a franchise, you know, if I took a franchise would you then back me, back us?

Speaker 2 4:03

And they said, yeah, absolutely, because 80% of independent businesses fail in the first five years. 80% of franchises survive the first five years and then fail. Well, there is that as well. Yeah, but so with my dad's backing, and he put his house on the line. So you know, he, he put up money, um, to get us off the ground and then put his house on the line to secure the overdraft, um, and he was working elsewhere. Yeah, I started, I opened the office, and the office that that we're in now, which is the first office, that that we started in was the office that I first started weekends on a voluntary basis. That's bad isn't it?

Speaker 1 4:48

yeah, just for the listeners, because they won't know, my son's, uh, currently live editing this podcast. And, fraser, I won't be putting my house up for you to start a bit stag a year. But, um, wow, so. And so what year would you say that? So that was a franchise. Yeah, what year would you have started that business? 92., 92. Yeah, and then at some point it converted its way over into being not a franchise and it just being Jackson's right. Yeah, so 2000. 2000. We came away from that. Okay, and Jackie, how did you get into it and into the industry? And then how did you end up working with Mark?

Speaker 3 5:26

So the industry. I thought, oh, that looks good, and just went in as a typist. That wasn't going to work for me and yeah. So I got asked to leave my first job after six months. I didn't pass my operation period, didn't pass my bration period, and the manager there claimed that I had too much personality to contain within the four walls of. I should never have told him that it was his lack of personality that was the issue. And so then I went to another corporate agent and I worked in corporate agency and never seen that I was going to do anything else. That was. I was very lucky, I was very successful very quickly and what was she doing?

Speaker 3 6:05

there. So I had. So I went in as a net. As a senior neg I'd never listed a property in my life but I thought the blokes I work with can do it can't be that complicated. Yeah, if I can do it, yeah, so it can't be that complicated um, and just kind of like blagged my way through it and then then within 18 months I'd got my own office and that was all going really really well. It just kind of grew from there and I never I never seen myself working as an independent estate agent.

Speaker 3 6:38

And I, mark and I had got together and we had our son and I wanted to go back to work in less hours than I did before. I had him, obviously. But Mark thought he'd throw a spanner in the works and get a place at university at the same time. So he got a place at university. We had a child under one and I said I'll go and run the office for a couple of years for you that won't be a problem. And here we are, 21 years later how hard can it be, you know?

Speaker 3 7:14

how hard do it be? Yeah, and they're a bit. You know it's been. It's been a tough ride in some ways, isn't it? You know, 2008, 2009, that was a really tough one yeah, absolutely, but absolutely.

Speaker 2 7:24

Do you know?

Speaker 3 7:24

Yeah, we've come through it, but we've come through that and we've come through it really well. Nice, and now I can't imagine ever being focused on working for anybody.

Speaker 1 7:33

No, no, so all right. And so now, how many people work for you guys now?

Speaker 3 7:42

There's nine of us in total Nine people total?

Speaker 1 7:43

How many people work for you guys? Now, there's nine of us in total. Nine people total. You've got a very established independent agency. Compete against bigger brands, smaller brands, very successful lettings, sales, all of that, right, yeah, so let's just try and dig into some of this then. So first thing we've got to talk about is, you know, living together and working together. For anyone who's listening to this, how does that? I mean, obviously there are down parts of it and up parts of it, but like what's, how do you, how do you manage to stay sane at all with that situation, like without it taking over every moment of every conversation, every dinner, every and it does take over your life it does take over your life.

Early Days: Building an Independent Agency

Speaker 2 8:29

But what I've learned is do what jackie says and you get an easy life, because we've got completely different styles and if we were both going hammer and tongs at it, we'd be but butting heads all the time and it would be a nightmare. But we, we work in different departments, yeah, so Jackie looks after sales and she looks after the team, you know. So, whereas I'm involved in lettings and the money and that side of it. So yeah. And does it?

Speaker 1 9:01

or either of you. I don't use the word in charge, but is there a even if the other person doesn't like it? Is there a final say? Is there somebody that's like?

Speaker 3 9:12

Yeah, your final say it's your business.

Speaker 2 9:15

Yeah, I've got the final say, but Jack is in charge.

Speaker 1 9:17

Yeah, that makes sense. It's the same for my business, me and Hayley.

Speaker 3 9:20

I've got the final say no, you do have the final say yeah, yeah absolutely. I would only ever push for something that is right.

Speaker 1 9:28

Yeah, you'll push to the point where you go. Look, I don't agree, yeah, I don't agree.

Speaker 3 9:31

But it's your name above the door. Love you know. Crack on with it.

Speaker 1 9:50

Yeah, just equal partners. We all started the business together, and and what I?

Speaker 1 9:51

found in those businesses was that we'd sit in a room and have what we've what was a debate, but just an argument, and then we'd all go home and nothing got solved, whereas, like when I started this business and then hayley came on board and she didn't have that ego but she could tell me how it was, because, obviously because she can talk to me however she likes, um, but at the end she didn't have an ego to go like, well, I thought it was my business too. She just like obviously it is her business and she's a lively, her life depends on it. But she's like well, you make the decision, it's up to you. I don't agree with you, but you do what you want and we're very much on that line.

Speaker 3 10:19

It's your name above the door, that's yeah um, I'll show you how to do it and I'll make you money and but you're free to fuck it up yeah do I shake but?

Speaker 2 10:32

you know, let's make no bones about it. Jackie is the face of jackson's.

Speaker 3 10:36

You know I'm very much in the background, right, but yeah, and you're very much out of contact now with estate agency as it is now, aren't you?

Speaker 2 10:43

yeah, because I'm not public back office, yeah, so I think as soon as you.

Speaker 3 10:49

So, as soon as you're no longer customer facing, I think you lose tabs on on where, on where you are with it.

Speaker 1 10:57

Yeah and what the issues are yeah, sort of stuff, yeah, yeah um, so how did you? How do you go about? Because it's because, obviously, the company means so much to you guys. You know it's your, it's not, it's your, it's your, it's your lives, if anything. Yeah, of course. How do you go about trying to make sure that you have staff whereby it matters as much to them, or does it, does it not need to matter as much? Then, like, what I'm trying to get at is is like how do you get?

Speaker 3 11:29

over the problem of finding decent staff that you feel represent the company as well as you would. Well, there's there's a question for you, and we are very lucky with the team that we've got. They work, they're all very good at their jobs. The issue that we have in some in that lots of businesses are having nowadays is about the transience into communication, videos, ai, all of that. We're all of a certain age. So you've got lots of good stuff in the backing of it because you've got people who've actually worked a difficult market. Lots of good stuff in the backing of it because you've got people who've actually worked a difficult market.

Speaker 3 12:06

Um, you don't survive in a difficult market if you're no good at what you do. But it's adding in the extras to that and getting people over to that idea I think is the hardest bit of it, and to me it's so blatantly obvious that I don't understand why people can't later in the office, that I don't understand why people can't come on board. So it's just having that tolerance for that. But I think basically I will say to all of them do you still love your job? Because if you don't, you need to be going home. I'm too hard to work for if you're not committed to what?

Speaker 1 12:37

Yeah, you're not going to be in these four walls, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, for you to sit there like that?

Speaker 3 12:43

yeah, do you know? It's like you know? Are you having a good time? Tell your face. Do you know? You need to be? Yeah, you need to be on it, because it's not. I'd say very much for myself and for my valuer, dave. Um is a way of life and I don't know it's a good thing or a bad thing, but we both work in the area, we live in the area that we work in, so you get so well known that there's no escape. There is no escape from it. So people do feel like they know you, yeah, and and that's been our success and it's been, and that is lovely. It would be nice if you, when you go out in your joggers and you're, you know, without your hair washed, to walk the dog, but you didn't see everybody that you know. But you have to balance out what you want out of life.

Speaker 1 13:28

And I suppose you know, saying to people that if you don't love it you might as well leave isn't, it's not harsh. It's like, if anything, it's like your life's too short for you to spend half your time in.

Speaker 3 13:39

I don't care too much about them? Yeah, yeah, I don't. Which is about there? Yeah, yeah, to be unhappy? Yeah, yeah, and I know that I'm not easy to work for.

Speaker 1 13:47

I know that I'm…. Well, you're easy to work for, if the person likes working for you.

Speaker 3 13:50

Yeah, I am exacting, I am exacting, but that's what's made us… that's what set us apart.

Speaker 1 14:01

So, in terms of, like the transition then over from, you know, post-war estate agency to, uh, where it is today, how has the company managed to adapt with that side of things? Because I know, obviously, like you know, you guys are using life cycle and that's. You know, like you say, that's pretty cutting edge in terms of estate agency software. So there must have been a. Was there any sort of a tricky transition to that way of working? Because you know, oh, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 14:33

Yeah, how did that all sort of come about? What made you do it, what made you stick with it and what was the problems?

Speaker 3 14:41

So what made me do it was talking to you.

Speaker 1 14:45

That's what made me commit to it and what did I say something in particular that, like you thought well, that sounds about right, or?

Speaker 3 14:51

no, you said nothing. You said everything and nothing in one sentence, and it was listening to somebody who was passionate as passionate about their product as I was about what I do and I think that's so lacking in a business environment that you hear anybody who's that driven or that passionate about something, so I could see the benefits in all of that. I'm also wasn't brilliant with technology, so we had LifeCircle in the very early days, when it was bait, so it was like we didn't use it for everything. We were running another system alongside it and then….

Speaker 1 15:32

That was just the market appraisers, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 15:36

And so when we came into LifeCycle I was like, oh my God, what have I done? You know, this is like what have I done? And the thing that we couldn't really get our head around at all was the electronic diary. That sounds mad, but that was the thing that they couldn't get done. And I think we'd had it in about the July August time and as we broke up for Christmas, I said to all of them there is no diary for next year and we turned the support off for the other system.

Speaker 1 16:08

Wow, so. So let's just when you say electronic diary, because, like you say, it sounds mad. Now, what was the? What was it before the?

Speaker 3 16:16

diary.

Speaker 1 16:18

So all the appointments are written in the diary Absolutely On top of the filing cabinet or something we all reference. That, yeah.

Speaker 2 16:24

You've been there, you've done that. Yeah, you know how that works.

Speaker 3 16:26

Yeah, yeah so.

Speaker 1 16:27

Now we're going into the computer. Now we're going into computer world.

Speaker 3 16:30

Yes, yeah, and we're going into computer world. Yeah, and it was just a case. Going cold turkey was the best thing I would say. If anybody's trying to integrate two systems into one, just go cold turkey, because there is no painless way to do it.

Working Together as a Couple

Speaker 1 16:54

Yeah, someone said that to me the other day. Actually they were talking about. They were saying we're going to go on board with Lifecycle and we're thinking like we'll run the other system alongside for, like you know, whatever six, eight months and how long do? You think it would take to switch over. I was like, well, if you just switch the other one off, it would take a month or two.

Speaker 1 17:11

Yes, but if you otherwise, if you have the other one, yeah, eight or nine months, then it'd be a month or two after you switch the other one off yeah, I would say that's probably right.

Speaker 3 17:20

I'd say people had tantrums and tears for about six weeks and then it was like it's normal now. It's just oh God, now. Yeah, I couldn't, yeah, we couldn't survive without it. It's. I was talking with our valuer the other day about this and I said isn't it ironic that you now do only have to do half of the things that you did when you came to us, yet you're busier than ever.

Speaker 1 17:46

Yeah, yeah. Well, everyone can always be busy, can't they? Absolutely, everyone can always be busy. It's just what you're busy on.

Speaker 3 17:53

Yeah, you know. Yeah, is it smart, busy, or is it just waste of time?

Speaker 1 17:56

Yeah, yeah, okay, and so did you have a churn of staff, and so did you have a churn of staff. Is there new staff now that work in this way with Lifecycle, as opposed to when you think back to the team that was there when you were sort of using Paper Diary, or is it the same team?

Speaker 3 18:16

No same team. Same team in sales plus one.

Speaker 2 18:24

And we lost some of that at Lettings, but not because of the life cycle, for you know, just for other reasons. Yeah.

Speaker 3 18:29

And yeah so.

Speaker 1 18:32

So they managed to somehow navigate through all of that pain and come out the other side. And is there still people in the company? Do you think that think I still don't know why we've left the other system, or do? You think everyone's over it now.

Speaker 3 18:43

No, I don't think that's even a question.

Speaker 2 18:46

I think with lettings there are probably some people. Because we use a different system for lettings, there are some people that think why don't we just use that system? Yeah?

Speaker 1 18:59

absolutely okay. So, um, we've got the company started. Uh, we've found a way of trying to find staff by basically staying on top of whether they're, whether they're enjoying working there or not. Do you have a actually going back to that? Do you have a process to try to filter out if they're gonna like work in there? Or is it a case that, like, well, they seem a nice person, they start and then we'll find out if they fit in? Or do you have a process before that of like, well, if we're going to hire this person, do they have to do anything in particular to? Do you have any sort of filtering process to try and find the right people, or do you find it out once they've started?

Speaker 2 19:38

we tend to find it out once they've started. But jackie's a really good filter. Yeah, she's a really perceptive person, so she's got a really good handle on what people don't tell her.

Speaker 1 19:48

Yeah, whereas for me, yes, that's worrying for you though, isn't it?

Speaker 2 19:51

Yeah, yeah here she knows things that you don't tell her. Why do you think I tell her everything? But for me, if someone tells me something, I kind of take that as gospel. Yeah.

Speaker 1 20:44

Yeah, whereas Jackie boo Jackie's going. No, they don't take that at all.

Speaker 2 20:47

Yeah, exactly that yeah.

Speaker 1 20:50

Okay. So the people side of things is a case that, like you know, we just stay focused on them once they join and see if they're enjoying the job or not, or if you're enjoying working with them. Technology side of things, it sounds like almost you, in a less polite way, basically said suck it up.

Speaker 3 21:12

Yeah, this is where we're going like. And then they just did but as much for me as for them. Yeah, because I could have gone on with the. The transfer is only a different kind of pain yeah it's still a pain, isn't it? A transfer is a transfer, yeah well, any change is a pain isn't it A transfer?

Speaker 1 21:24

is a transfer, yeah Well, any change is a change, isn't it yeah?

Speaker 3 21:26

So you know absolutely. So, yeah, it's just not questionable now.

Speaker 1 21:32

Yeah, okay, so the company's now moved on. There's staff working there, there's different technology. So what sort of challenges would you say you face now as an estate agency? Is it fee-based, is it? I don't know where are the challenges inside the business?

Speaker 3 21:53

Challenges are staying.

Speaker 3 21:54

I think, when you're at the top of your game, I think the challenges are staying at the top and certainly within our patch we are, I think, the continuing to encourage other people to come for the ride, when you're almost making changes every other month to update where you are, because so much has moved on, hasn't it with, um, just just the integration of the ai, just all of that kind of thing. There's so much moves on that, just as you get up to speed with something yeah, you go, forget that, you go oh, I'm not doing like that anymore, or did you know you can now do this?

Speaker 1 22:38

so what? Making people not feel like, making people believe that you know where you're going with the business, is that? Is that a challenge, do you think right? As opposed to them just thinking like I'm not listening to this anymore because you change your mind next month?

Speaker 3 22:53

no, no, I don't think it comes down to that. I think it's just continually. I think the biggest thing is a bit um so when I spoke to you right the right early doors and that we talked about the google principle and the fact that google gets more intelligent every couple of minutes or seconds or whatever it is, and because you'll never, ever be able to catch up with where it started and the data and the data that it's collated to make it what it is today. So it's actually the same with our database, but I think it's exactly the same with our how our team was, because we're very um, I'm very focused on social media and videos being in people's mind yeah and not just for a state agency, but for um being part of our community yeah, just being

Speaker 3 23:40

present, yeah, just, but just being part, and very much that and that side of it always has and very much matters to me because I think we're in a very, we are in a very fortunate position and I think we lose sight sometimes in our industry of how fortunate we are, so bringing people along for the ride with you.

Staff Management and Technology Adoption

Speaker 3 23:59

So I got involved in the video side of things during COVID, not through choice, I mean, most people know me now, I won't even look in a mirror or I don't do girly, I don't do dressed up or anything. But I got involved in that because it's the only way you could show people properties, because there were so many restrictions, so, um, and for us we were really lucky during COVID that most agents just went oh, we're being furloughed, we're off home, then we won't do anything. And and they didn't and I was just like, well, there's no way, I've created this business and I'm sitting home doing nothing and I've got a child and school fees to pay, so you know, let's crack on with it. So we kind of wiped up during that time and that gave us I suppose I got the chance to experiment then when there was nothing to be judged against, and because some of the team didn't come along for the ride at that time. They are now in a situation where what they're doing is being compared with what is.

Speaker 1 24:59

So what I do is now five years on.

Speaker 3 25:01

And I'm like, well, I've had this conversation with you. I think Dave said to me the other day you know, well, you know, if an estate agent is not doing video, not considering, considering ai, where are they going to be in 18 months? And I was like unemployed because that's the reality of our game at this moment in time, isn't it it's all about? I mean, we were talking with them, simon, before we came in and I said I really think that, um, we'll all have our own youtube, v, vimeo channels, whatever, and that's going to see the portals off that eventually. And he brought up the point that you know, the consumer is generally lazy.

Speaker 3 25:40

The reason that Rightmove is so successful is because people like a one-stop shop. And I said, okay, then I'll caveat that. I'll caveat that it's not just that it'll make the portals won't make them go away, but it'll make them less significant. And it'll mean they're less significant to an agent to be able to conduct their business successfully in an area they dominate. So they will then no longer have you by the short and curly, as it were. So the obscene amounts of money that you have to pay, yeah, will be optional.

Speaker 1 26:20

But if you've not built that market now, you won't have the consideration for that to be optional at that time. Yeah, it's so true, because I was thinking the other day I encourage a lot of agents to do video and I remember when you first started doing video. I remember exactly what you're talking about. You know the anxiety and all that sort of stuff. But, like you say that you were in hindsight, looking back exactly as you're explaining it. You were lucky in the sense that before COVID, if you did video, it was like you were purposely putting yourself out there to be shot at. During COVID it was like, well, it has to be done this way. So everyone sort of just accepted it, didn't they? Um, so um. But I was chatting to an agent the other day, um, who was just talking about the fact that I know it was on linkedin.

Speaker 1 27:02

I saw a poll do you prefer properties with vidit? Do you prefer looking at video of properties or photos of properties? And, like, my first instinct was to click to vote for video, because I encourage a lot of agents to do video. But then I thought about when I myself, as a buyer, I just look at the photos and if I like the photos. Then I might go and watch the video, or I might not even watch the video and I just thinking about it, thinking to myself. It's quite mad. Actually, I think every agent should be doing video. But when I think about it, it's nothing to do with selling the property. They just need to be out there, they need to be precious, they need to be on social media. It's just an advert for you. It's an opportunity to have an excuse to do some content, because otherwise you go. I don't know what to do content about. It's like you show people around houses and you make sure your face is on it.

Speaker 1 27:53

And they go oh, I know that bloke, he does the properties, so it's quite mad. And, as you say, going forward, yeah, I mean, if you're not doing that, will you be out of business? Maybe, maybe not, but you certainly won't have as much notoriety as a person who is doing it, would you?

Speaker 1 28:58

No, absolutely notoriety as a person who is doing it, would you? No, that's the reason. Yeah, you know, if you're not doing, if you didn't do, if you didn't know marketing, you're gonna less people are gonna know about you than if you did do marketing. And this is just a form of marketing, right? So where do you sit in all of this? Then mark like, because, like you know, jackie's got this, she's picked this ball up and run with it, and like, sales is going and we're doing to do video, we're doing this and doing that, and you're saying you're on the letting, more on the letting side of things. So, like, how does that side of the business look at the sales side of the business and how does the sales side of the business look at the letting side of business? Do the lettings people all do that stuff, or is it just two, like two separate companies?

Speaker 2 29:27

no, it's all one company. But, um, jackie is training. You know, the jackie does most of the front of house for everything. Yeah, um, but she's training one of the lettings girls to get more and more involved with videos and she's, she's, uh, telling the law for the journey, isn't she? So you know?

Speaker 1 29:48

so, yeah, she is getting more and more involved okay, and do you, um, do you guys sit down, talk about how that's all going to work, or is it just, or is it more a case that, like I know you, you run that side of the business, you don't have to worry about it, or you still have to sort of run it past each other as to like, no, I wouldn't run it past you no, you just go do it, I wouldn't I running it past you.

Speaker 3 30:14

Well, there's no point. You know, he needs to be good at what he's good at.

Speaker 1 30:17

Yeah, because you've got this thing.

Speaker 3 30:19

Yeah, and that's my responsibility, and you're and you can accept that.

Speaker 1 30:23

uh, even though we've established you get final, say, if there was a huge catastrophic, except that, like, but this has nothing to do with me. Yeah, absolutely so. Like, even though I've got an opinion on it, it's kind of irrelevant because I'm not the one who's doing it right?

Speaker 3 30:39

Yeah, exactly Because we've all had different opinions. Yeah, we've got hugely differing opinions.

Speaker 1 30:44

Do you work that way with your staff, Like do the staff have the autonomy?

Speaker 3 30:52

to make decisions on things like that, or do they have to? They should have, but I've been too much of a dictatorial manager for them to do that, and that's a process that I've been trying to change okay, so what have you done that you think you shouldn't have?

Speaker 3 31:02

so I think that. So we still very much run a system whereby everybody has a job allocation, so we have a value or a sales manager, a sales negotiator, everybody is response a salesor, everybody is responsible for an area of the transaction and to me, that's always given me accountability to people, because if there's a common trait that property is not getting rung out or that it's not being progressed properly, then I know exactly who's responsible for it. I can go to them and we can identify a training issue or identify the fact that they're not that interested in what they're doing, so perhaps they need to be doing something else. So that's always been the way that it's done. It's all, that's. Yeah, that's the way we've always run our business.

Speaker 3 31:43

I mean, I know a lot of estate agents now run it as jack of all trades and it's just never been my style, and so for that, what I've done is kind of made it difficult for myself now, because they wait to be told what to do, right, and we've had a transition in the last 18 months where I'm trying to get them to do what they need to do, yeah, and the thinking, but of course that's not going to come easy. No, but I. I think really in the last couple of months I've readjusted my thought process on that and how are you looking at it now?

Speaker 3 32:16

that they have got and I've backed down the same line as if you're not happy with doing it. That you know, and kind of my thing on it now is if you're not happy on doing it, you do need to be looking for something else, because you won't have a job yeah not because I don't want you to have a job, but because it, it's changed. That position doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker 1 32:35

Yeah yeah, I mean because you guys came to the AI workshop we did a couple of weeks ago, and do you think that they're scared that AI will replace them, as opposed to how they can use it to do the job better?

Speaker 2 32:49

Yeah, I think so to an extent and I think you're the person that that said you know you still need someone to check that ai is right. Yeah, you know, because ai doesn't just take over you have to make sure that the things that it's saying are the things that you want it to be saying. Yeah, you know, and not that it's going rogue somewhere. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 33:18

Because the AI that we're talking about, the large language models they hallucinate when they're given too much unstructured information. It just makes you up yeah, it sounds very plausible, yeah, and if you weren't really that au fait with the subject, you'd just believe it. But if you are familiar with the subject, you'd quickly be able to go. This is giving the wrong information to a tenant, or even just the wrong vibe. Yeah.

Speaker 3 33:41

Because there's. I mean, I wrote something a couple of weeks ago for one holiday that frightened the life out of me because it was a case of well. It was saying to me well, we've read this and you have a very casual style of writing. Would you like us to rework this in your casual style, or would you prefer a more structured approach?

Speaker 1 34:01

Yeah, Really yeah.

Speaker 3 34:04

You know, I thought at least it's asked me. Nobody ever answers, but even AI is asking me. But I think the nervousness about AI in our team is based around the same nervousness they had about changing over to LifeSci, in the way that they had about me taking paper files off of them. Oh my God, you'd have thought the world would have ended with you, as well as everybody else. Why do we not need to write anything in triplicate? Because we don't. Yeah, that was a real one to get rid of, so.

Speaker 3 34:45

I think now we're only going through the pain that we went through with Anything really. Yeah, it is just another and it is very much out there and there's so much. Okay, there's a lot of bad that can be done with it, but there's so much. Okay, there's a lot of bad that can be done with it, but there's a lot of good that can be done with it as well, and it can certainly make your work if you use it properly it's going to make.

Speaker 1 35:06

It condenses everything for you. It sparks speed.

Speaker 3 35:07

Yeah, yeah, but it's about and I do think for a lot of people it's going to be about them being able to put the right content in.

Speaker 2 35:16

Yeah.

Speaker 3 35:16

So the fact that what they're writing to start with is factually accurate, because I wrote half a dozen blogs before I went on holiday and Dave, my pal, said to me oh my God, did it write them for you? Well, no, I kind of had to put the information in. Do you know what it is? It's? So I think, again, it's just a learning curve, isn't it? Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 1 35:35

People sort of overestimate what it's capable of, like. I say because a lot of the things that it's used for at the moment is stuff whereby you wouldn't know if it was hallucinating or not.

Speaker 3 35:45

Yeah.

Speaker 1 35:46

But when you do know that thing like we've investigated it for answering some of our support tickets, for instance it just makes you up.

Speaker 3 35:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1 35:54

It just says, like you know, go to the so-and-so menu in Lifecycle. It's like there is no menu like that in Lifecycle, you know only because you know that subject so well? Yeah, whereas if you were just asking it a random question about how do I use Excel and it told you some crazy formula, you'd go oh that's clever, isn't it? An Excel expert goes, but it's wrong.

The Future of Estate Agency and AI

Speaker 3 36:14

The Excel itself has got a structure, so there's going to be limitations to its wrongness, whereas in our industry it's so scary the lack of people who've not worked in a difficult market, or the amount of state agents that don't have an understanding of the conveyance process even to be able to know that something somebody's telling them is right or wrong.

Speaker 1 36:37

Yeah.

Speaker 3 36:38

I think that's quite scary is the amount of incorrect information that will be fed into some systems.

Speaker 1 36:43

Yeah, Do you think, then, that? So how do you see the future of estate agency in that regard? You know you've come from being in the industry before internet through the internet, through estate agency software onto big data systems, life cycle, now artificial intelligence. You're currently saying there's a team of nine and you guys so there's a team of nine there sitting nicely in the market got a good position. I don't know. What does AI do to that? Does it make? Does you, do you have less staff? Do you have, uh, more transactions? Like? What impact do you think it makes?

Speaker 3 37:24

I think it's going to differentiate the staff roles, so I think it's going to individualize them more. But I think and I don't know mark feels differently to me about about this but I think give us five to seven years and it will go down the route of the independent estate agent. So you'll get valuers, and you'll get valuers who hire people to do their viewings. You'll get valuers that hire people to do their sales progressing, so they'll become pools of people that don't just work for one agent. Yeah, and I think that's very much going to be.

Speaker 1 37:54

Or they'll use that one agent yeah, and I think that's very much going to be or they'll use AI for it. I guess.

Speaker 3 37:56

Yeah, there's very much going to be the way that it goes.

Speaker 1 37:58

There'll be the brand that people want to work with.

Speaker 3 38:01

Which is why I keep stressing at the moment it's so important to build your brand.

Speaker 1 38:04

Yeah, and what about you say Mark disagrees with it slightly? Or I'm not convinced that, certainly with the timescale, and I'm not convinced that necessarily, people will go to.

Speaker 2 38:42

Does this have any impact on that relationship between how those two fight over the market? I think the independent will thrive because they're in a position to pivot quicker. I think corporates are big tankers, aren't they? It would take three miles to start, whereas an independent can stop on sixpence and go in a different direction.

Speaker 3 38:55

I don't just think it's that, though. I think if you look at the corporate environment and why so many of them were set up look at the Prue and the Halifax, the Woolwich, all the big names that we work for and when they came into the market, it was to buy data, it was to buy information.

Speaker 2 39:14

Mortgages yeah.

Speaker 3 39:14

Yeah, it was to buy mortgage leads and so you don't need that anymore. So why would you go to the expense of having an industry that is so volatile? Yeah, that's not determined even by the people who are in that market, but by people somewhere else that determine the state of the country or the state of the financial situation within our place in the world as a country, and that and the market is reacts so violently to that. So why, as a corporate, would you buy or acquire an asset like that when you can do it with data?

Speaker 1 39:51

yeah, absolutely I mean. But see, I was on a podcast the other day where, um, the guy that I was debating with was saying that the corporates will win in this ai world because they've got all the data. And I said to him but they haven't, they haven't got all the data, they've got names and email addresses all in a very unstructured database. That's just a big fat mess and ai can't do anything with that. And he was saying like no, no, it can, because it can clean up the data and it can put it. And I was like no, it can't do that and we agreed to disagree on it.

Speaker 1 40:27

But the way that I see it is like a lot of people feel like blockbuster was put out of business by netflix because blockbuster never went online and had all these stores and netflix just went online and, like you know, blown out of the water. That's not what actually happened. Like blockbuster did go online, blockbuster had blockbuster online and they copied netflix site pixel for pixel. They stole some of netflix people, they built the site. But netflix were doing it, like you say, for data. They had built underlying algorithms that would know what films you'd want to watch next, what date, what, what descriptions to show you all of that sort of stuff and blockbuster had just gone on the face of it.

Speaker 1 41:09

Well, people want it online. You can watch videos online and that's the end of it. And that's kind of like the way I see it, the difference between the corporates and some of the independents like yourselves, who are using specific structured data systems. It's too late for those people. What I will do? It will give you the ability to work all the benefits that a corporate would have had. Yeah, you could deal with 100 transactions now instead of 10, because I can do a load of the admin for you if it, if it knows yeah you know what jobs it's got to do, the corporate coming down to the personal level.

Speaker 1 41:43

That's quite tricky thing to do, isn't?

Speaker 1 41:45

it especially when, like my job, I don't know. I don't really care, I'm just supposed to do this many viewings every month, like I never really thought about the customer experience and no one's ever taught me about it. So I think the independent wins, whether it's like you say, whether it's a sole person working on his own with AI bots and freelancers, or whether it's independent small companies. Either way, I think you're right. I think, as we're going to move more into a world of artificial intelligence, administration and all that sort of stuff, actually personal elements are probably going to become even more important. There are some companies rushing into AI, trying to get them to answer their phones and everything, and even for someone like myself, it's just fucking annoying. I don't want to talk to a computer that doesn't understand what I'm saying. I want to talk to a person. At that point, a computer can do with all the admin.

Speaker 3 42:33

I think that's a really, really good a system. A conveyance system in england that's so broken that so much is can go wrong, and at any stage of your life, whether it's your health, your finances, your family, whatever it is. If something goes wrong, you want to talk to somebody. Yeah, and I don't think any amount of data no is going to be replacing that? If it was, I just can't believe that purple bricks ballsed up the market the way it did because they had the perfect model to wipe clean yeah, they did.

Speaker 1 43:10

They just didn't realize what they were doing with it. But but it's when it's exactly what you're saying. It's when something goes off track. Yeah, that the data's. You'd need too many possibilities sitting inside the database, which would make the large language model confused anyway. As an example, like I phoned a restaurant to say I was going to be there early, can I use their bar? Their AI assistant doesn't know what that means. They just said we hold your table for 15 minutes. It's like what?

Speaker 3 43:36

Yeah, the nearest possible answer.

Speaker 1 43:38

How many permutations would they have had to think up to get to the one that was like I'm going to be there a bit early. Can I have a drink at the bar? You know, it's just. You want to just talk to a person at that point.

Speaker 3 43:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1 43:48

You know, like you say, like when something's, when I'm scared about I don't know, or not scared, I'm anxious about my home move. The things I ask there aren't going to be straightforward and for it to answer are they?

Speaker 3 44:06

I want to talk to a person who goes, oh don't worry, we've dealt with this thousands of times like, and I can, I know a person who can help you with that. That is so important. You know that is. You know, you know that's why teams are. So this one, I think teams are so important because you know, my sales manager and my value would sell their granny if they had to. My cell sales progressor has got the patience of a saint. She deserves to be sainted. That girl do you know? Yeah, move what? So you need completely different personality groups to do different aspects of the job if you're going to do it properly yeah, and not everything has an answer.

Speaker 1 44:35

No, you know, sometimes people just want to vent and sometimes people just want you to go there.

Speaker 3 44:39

There, yeah, I've got you?

Maintaining High Fees and Knowing Your Worth

Speaker 1 44:41

yeah, I hear you, absolutely, absolutely okay. So before we we get to the end of this, I just want to talk to you guys about another subject that a lot of agents out there like have struggle with, which is, you know, the fee side of things how to charge the right amount of money for for the service in order to end up making a profit, so that not everyone in the company except you gets paid. Um, so I guess over the years you've done it for long enough you must have been through that battle like oh yeah, how.

Speaker 1 45:12

How do you deal with it now? Like how, what advice can you give to people that are sitting there thinking I just, we just don't charge enough and I, I don't think we can charge anymore?

Speaker 3 45:21

yeah, just believe you're worth it. It absolutely comes from the belief that you're worth it and we have this side by side in our office. Yeah, and Dave has got a lot better with that, absolutely. And he's got a lot better with that because we're continuously market leaders. So now he's beginning to understand his worth in that. But all the way through I've been I'll turn business away, I'm I, but then that's me as as a person and it'll be I'm.

Speaker 3 45:52

I will say to somebody but I am worth every penny yeah there's, and if you, if you haven't bought into that, then you haven't bought into who I am. And and that's really to me, that's really, really important, because if you can't sell yourself, how are you ever going to get the best price for somebody, the best deal for somebody, the best? Yeah, I absolutely categorically believe that I am the best person in our postcode to do that job, without exception.

Speaker 1 46:22

Yeah, and that has got to be worth an amount of money that makes it worth me doing it yeah, of course it's like you know back with the, you put it into like you know haircuts or whatever, and when we had hit, when I had here, you could pay different. Also pay different numbers for different stylists, right, like so you can go with the cheap one, the medium, one-high or the expensive one, particularly the one that cracks me up right this conversation only a week ago.

Speaker 3 46:46

So if you go online and you order something, we all pay for Amazon Prime or whatever. But if you go online and you want something, so they'll say, oh, your delivery is $3.99. If you want it on three days, it's $5.99. If you want it tomorrow, it's $9.99. And I would say that probably half of the people who order online because they're crisis, buying order for tomorrow. Now we've been out to a property photographs, nothing's been done on it and we have two offers on that property. So the seller wants to not pay all of our fee because we've not done all of our work.

Speaker 1 47:21

We are the only industry that expects people to pay less for more service yeah it's crazy that fries my, that absolutely fries my brain yeah, there's a story about it that, uh, where this, this uh software software company, all their servers go down and um, they call out this engineer and he comes along, uh, looks along the servers and he finds this screw and he turns it and all the servers come back on and he gives them a bill for 10 grand. And they're like you've been here like five minutes, can you just like break down the 10 grand bill for me? He's like yep, it's uh, five pounds for turning the screw and 9995 for name which screw to turn absolutely, and that is it.

Speaker 3 48:13

that is it. But you have. You have to act, and I do, and the likes of you and rob will know how anxious I am as a person ordinarily, but when it comes to the business, I absolutely know that I am worth every penny, and what I say to most people is if I'm good enough at what I do, you should never need to find out how good I am, because things won't go wrong, and you only find out how good an agent is if things don't go the way they should.

Speaker 1 48:41

Yeah, but it's crazy though, isn't it? It it's like you've got them, the buyers, straight away, before anything else, because you're a business that runs, that have been there for 20 years, and so on and so forth. You already got all this. That was why they came to in the first place rather than you've got to make it all up yeah, like once they put it on the market and that, that way that they would be happy to pay for absolutely the fact that you've already done the work. Yeah, you know, crazy, crazy. So so has there been points then, whereby, um, you didn't feel that well, you've been like that forever. Have you always been? Have you always been because you're market leaders there? So have you always been market leaders? Or because now it sounds like you've got a combination of market leaders and charging what you want. Was it always like that? No, and it's not always charging. What flick switched what switch?

Speaker 3 49:29

flicked, flicked.

Speaker 1 49:32

Yeah, what switch flicked for you to think we can have the fees we want and be market leaders rather than well, if we're market leaders, we've got to take it on at any price, or we can have the fees we want and we won't be market leaders rather than well, if we're market leaders, we've got to take it on at any price, or we can have the fees we want and we won't be market leaders.

Speaker 3 49:47

I think that you've got to just believe.

Speaker 2 49:49

Yeah, and also we had to, to bully, to a certain extent, our valuer to to not just want to undercut, undercut everyone, just to get it on.

Speaker 1 50:02

Yeah, so. But when you say bully him, I mean obviously you had to convince him to do that, but I guess you also had to make him feel safe that he wasn't going to get fired.

Speaker 3 50:10

Absolutely Not taking it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still say to him to this day you know, step away for something, and if you step away from it, then it's not, it would never was business. Yeah, if you're, if you've got that feeling right at the beginning that something's not right, you can guarantee that it's not right?

Speaker 1 50:31

yeah, I had something similar the other week with a salesperson who was asking me if we could do this crazy deal for somebody on life cycle. I was like, no, why would you want to? He was like just, you know, need a win. I was like that's not a win. Yeah, don't worry, because that's not a win anyway.

Speaker 3 50:47

So like it's like when you watch the apprentice, isn't it?

Speaker 1 50:49

you know well, could you give me 5p off, because then I can say really yeah, yeah, absolutely do you, you know, but I, I absolutely believe you've got to value yourself and your ability so someone who's listening to this, who can relate, who's thinking, oh, I've got that value as well. Like you know, they just keep on doing it cheaper than I'm telling them to. All right, how do I? How do they solve it? What should they be doing?

Speaker 3 51:11

the. The input in that has to be into developing the um, what's the word I'm looking for? Developing the confidence of that valuer that their job in the line isn't on the line if the figures dip, because the numbers might dip but the income will increase. And the very fact that the numbers dip means that you can spend more time with the right people. You spend more time with the right people, they tell more people and it kind of starts to regenerate itself. But it's just being a nursemaid hand-holding that period. And I also think any decent valuer also has a huge amount of ego and it's all about losing out to somebody else. You've got to forget about that. Yeah, your only competition is yourself. Anything you do in life, your only competition is yourself. Anything you do in life, your only competition is yourself.

Speaker 1 52:04

Yeah, do you think it makes a difference that you're also um proving?

Speaker 3 52:08

it could be done absolutely, and I think every time he goes on holiday he poos himself over that.

Speaker 2 52:12

Yeah, and it really kills him to go yeah, because you go out listing and the fees go up yeah, and they will still go up, but then somebody's paid.

Speaker 3 52:21

it's like you said about going to the salon it's paying for the director as opposed to paying for the CEO.

Speaker 1 52:26

Yeah, of course you're right on it. Like you said about talking to me the first time, you liked the passion you wanted to work with the company and only the owner of the business has got they can do that. Your staff. You know they can't do that, you can't expect them to be able to, but they can learn how to overcome a fee objection without saying well, the only way I could get it on was to drop the fees. Like there's got to be another way, otherwise, surely?

Speaker 3 52:51

that's not the job that you're supposed to be doing. Well, you've not sold enough of yourself, or you've not imparted it, or because there are going to be people, and you know, we've had this competition where I've said to people look, you're quite clearly not going to pay for you know. We've had this competition where I've said to people look, you're quite clearly not going to pay for you know, you don't. You don't agree with the way that we work, you don't agree with the way we do this. So then we're not the best agent for you. When you've sold, you want to buy, come back.

Speaker 1 53:14

You know because we've got all the properties everything you need yeah, we, yeah, we've got restaurants, that's. It's just belief, belief, belief. And I guess it's the same for all of those things we spoke about the software. This is what we're doing, this is the road we're going down. Suck it up, we're getting on with it. These are the fees, this is what we're worth. Yeah, and if somebody is, I guess, not believe in what we do, yes.

Speaker 1 53:45

Because if you believe in what we do, why would you have had to have done it for cheaper? You would have either walked away or they would have paid the fee. But there isn't a bit in between where you had to do it for cheaper? Yeah, the bit in between where they had to do it for cheaper. Was you conceding that we're not worth it?

Speaker 3 53:59

Yeah.

Speaker 1 54:03

That's brilliant. Well, look, we could keep talking forever, but we're out of time, so thank you both very much for coming in Thank you.

Speaker 1 54:08

Matt, thanks for listening to this Estate Agency X podcast. Can you make sure that you're actually subscribed to this podcast channel if you liked the content? It helps us massively to get better guests, and it just helps us generally. So you might think you're subscribed, but just have a double check whatever your podcast platform of preference is that you're actually subscribed and then that way we can continue to grow the channel and get better and better guests for you.