Closing The Execution Gap With Simon Gates

Why do some estate agents thrive while others stall, even with the same tools and knowledge?

In this episode, Simon Gates, industry consultant to 200+ agencies—reveals how closing the execution gap turns ideas into results. Starting his career at 16 during the 2007 crash, Simon learned early that success isn’t about knowing what to do, but acting faster and smarter than the competition.

You’ll discover:

• Why every appraisal is worth £1,000
• How data uncovers hidden conversion opportunities
• Why your database is your most valuable growth tool
• The small execution shifts that separate top performers from the rest

If you’re an independent agent, owner, leader or self-employed agent, this episode is a blueprint for sustainable, predictable growth.

👉 Listen now to close your execution gap.

Leading Estate Agents of the World – Founding Members Launch

We’ll soon be introducing the first founding members of the network.
If you'd like to be considered for the launch event, register here

https://estateagencyx.co.uk/leadingestateagentsoftheworld

This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Introduction to Simon Gates

Speaker 1 0:00

Estate NCX the UK's number one estate NC podcast discussing the future of estate agency entrepreneurship and business. Hosts Mark Burgess and Rob Brady. So on this episode of Estate NCX we sit down with Simon Gates from Open to Get Some More Listings. We discuss Simon's early career in agency, why he decided to go home search, why he decided to leave home search. We discuss what he's found speaking to hundreds of agents across the uk and also in his 200 episodes of astellancy, what he's found out to be the best advice that he should give out to people. That's listening on this podcast today. Hope you enjoy. So, simon, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 0:38

Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1 0:40

I'm sure it's nice to actually, like we're just laying off camera, to actually be able to talk for probably about 45 minutes about yourself, rather than asking everyone else questions, being a host of your own podcast show.

Speaker 2 0:49

I mean, I like to talk about myself. We'll see afterwards what the listeners think, if it's a good or a bad thing, maybe on the other side of it.

Speaker 1 0:55

So anyone listening out there? Simon Gates, just a bit of background. If anyone has been living under a rock, who you are and what do you do?

Speaker 2 1:03

yeah, cool, it's industry. So uh got my own consultancy business called opening the gates obviously a very easy name for my business just off the back of my surname, uh, consultancy to estate agents. Um started it a couple years ago. I've worked with over 200 estate agents. In that time. Uh basically lean on my 15 plus years uh of being an estate agent and then working in the prop tech world, uh, with home search. So, yeah, that's, that's my uh, my journey and why I do what I do now awesome.

Speaker 1 1:32

So let's go back. I always like to go back. Let's go back into your experience of those 15 years in agency. So what did what did that look like for you? Um, I always ask the question like what was your first? What was your first day like in agency? You know, we had rob only on, who's been in 20 years, only in his business. He said, like the first day someone gave him a bag of keys and said get on with some viewings and he said I was out for about three days. So what, what did your first day look like? Who was that who's that with? Was it an independent corporate?

Speaker 2 2:01

yeah, work was, uh, uh, independent, um, from the age of 16 all the way up to 29, 30, or whenever I left agency. Um, and there's. I'm going to give two different answers to my first day because they're slightly different things. So the first first day was work experience in the summer of 2007, at 16 years of age, and I said to a lady I said, what's the best piece of advice you can give me? And she said always, be honest. I was at the time like that's shit advice, isn't it? But actually it's probably pretty good advice, because estate agents are known as being dishonest. So that was my my first ever day. Um, I did two years of working weekends. Whilst I did my a levels, my parents said go do your a levels. Um, in case it doesn't work out as being an estate agent, I think they still thought I might go off to uni. That was of no interest to me. I was like to be an estate agent. You don't need any qualifications, probably why it suited me. Yeah, um, you just needed to do what you say you're going to do be able to hold a conversation, that sort of thing.

Speaker 2 2:55

But then on my actual proper first day in full-time employment, which would have been june 2009, so probably the day after my last A-level. I walk into the office and a lady looks up and she goes can I help you? It's like it's my first day. She's like all right, okay, don't know anything about that. So the director of that branch was on honeymoon and had not told anyone I was starting. What could they do? Do a stage? Yeah, what's that saying here's your desk, here's a phone, all the best, you're on your own, yeah, and, and that was that. Um. So yeah, it was a different office, the one I'd be working weekends in. And yeah, I didn't ever see you'd be able to turn. That was the moment you knew you'd made the right choice in life yeah, hello, hello.

Speaker 3 3:34

Who are you? Yeah, at the a levels, yeah yeah, what did?

Speaker 1 3:38

what did you even learn in those two years? Just as like, because you know, I I've, you know, put cars on the table a lot of times to uh apprentices. We used to say like, oh shit, we've got like six months worth of filing here and scaling, so like, just get this, just get, put this person in to do that. Was it like that? Or did you? Did you learn any traits did? Was there anyone decent in the office? You thought, ah, a few things I learned from this person that I've still you know, 10 years later, I'll still operate as an agent like that yeah, I think, um, that 2007 to 2009 is like the perfect storm of going to be an estate agent.

Speaker 2 4:13

So, yeah, um, I always like say to people when I first did work experience, you know that like the scene from the wolf of wall street where he's on the first day on the on the stock floor and he's like freshers well before the crash. So you see, like money, money, money everywhere. Uh, when he's got matthew mcconaughey going crazy and putting the thing down the slot, whatever, I was like that this is me, I love it, uh. And then, yeah, I think, but 16 years of age, genuinely have like a phone on each year of people phoning up and going I'd like to offer on his house. I was saying there's someone outside and I go oh, we've already got an asking price offer on that house. And they go I'll pay 10 grand above asking. This is a 16 year old who would have to two hours earlier say to a teacher excuse me, can I go to the toilet?

Speaker 2 4:51

yeah and two hours later I'm, but not because I knew what I was doing. I just say we've already got an asking price offer. And I think that like naivety of youth, just go, I've already got an asking price offer on that, okay, we'll pay more. So the ghost should come back to the office. I'll be like, oh, those people you showed brown, they've both paid, offered asking price, one's offered above it. And they're like what?

Early Agency Career and Market Crash

Speaker 2 5:10

But then fast forward a year to whenever northern rock happened and and the crash, one of my jobs on a saturday morning was updated a window card to nail shop windows. And it used to be when I first started taking those window cards out and replacing them with new stocks. It was just selling all the time. Fast forward a few months when the market crashed, it was taking the price off. It was dropping at five grand, 10 grand, 20 grand every week because it was just those people who had to sell next to equity. Obviously, property wasn't selling, so it just kept dropping the price. So I'd literally gone from this crazy market up here to then being a oh shit. So I really learned the art of what it means to be an estate agent in that 0809.

Speaker 1 5:49

Part of it, yeah, massively. I mean, I came to that same career a bit further. I wasn't, wasn't a apprentice, but I came to it thinking, yeah, I'm going to be an estate agent. And I remember getting my astra from connells and, and I think it's about a month later we had that. It just went. I was like what the fuck is this happening now, like and it's sort of similar to the 2020 post-covid period of time that people really had that boom and then, all of a sudden, some of the only agency owners I speak to going like some of the staff ain't got a clue, like, and what's, what's how to even be an estate agent, especially in that period of time. So, um, were you in the intersecting fast forward, obviously, those from 2009 onwards, before you end up? Obviously part of the agency? Were you just with the same company for that time?

Speaker 2 6:31

the same company the whole time. So it was a company now who's probably been established I'm gonna say about 60 years, um, and it was a sort of family run-esque business, but it kept growing every year. So in my earlier years, uh, so actually I think they opened their Northampton office the day Northern Rock happened, that whole shitstorm, and that office, I think, lost a lot of money for a long time. They were opening another office in Bedford but held that off because of Northampton. I think they then launched that maybe in 2010. And that office went on to be crazy. But yeah, it grew over time. So it's probably a couple of branches, two, three, maybe when I started in 07. Uh, by the time I left at the start of 2020, it would be a dozen-ish offices across buckinghamshire, bedfordshire, north hamptonshire, predominantly and and uh.

Speaker 1 7:20

What was, what was the varied roles that you got from that? What did you enjoy the most out of that? Was it like you know? Was you?

Speaker 2 7:26

I think, uh, what did I enjoy most, I'd say by the end, was I just loved being in someone's living room and that trying to win that business. That excited me more than I don't know getting an offer on a house or getting an exchange of contracts. It was a I'm going up against probably two other agents. I want you to trust that I'm the right person to sell your house and get the best price. That was a bit I love the most about it yeah, and then so almost a decade in I.

Speaker 1 7:56

It's weird one because obviously I had a similar sort of position to you where you had you've been in for the identity of that job for so long and naturally you continue that or you go on to another estate agency. But then you decided to obviously part ways of actually being an estate agent and then moving over into home search yeah so like what did?

Speaker 2 8:18

what happened?

Speaker 1 8:18

yeah, what happened? Why did that? Why did you go from being just simon who worked in a, an independent estate agent, to you know, now you're simon gates, from open, open the gates of more listings effect to you. So. So what was that transition like and why did? Why did you end up going from like the dark side of agency, which is the supplies that most agents, yeah, don't?

Speaker 2 9:20

take um. So, yeah, I started running a branch at start of 2015. Uh, made profit every year, things going really well. If you'd said to me before that you know you own a house, you've got the car you wanted, you've got the missus you wanted, everything was going amazingly well. Yeah, I was unfulfilled, but I didn't know what unfulfilled was at that time. It's only in hindsight but I can realize that, um and in 2018 it would have been I was trying to seek answers from other offices, so from managers, directors, who've been doing it longer than I had, and I wasn't getting the answers. It would just be uh, I'll just keep doing what you're doing. I was like, but I want to get better.

Speaker 2 9:58

Uh, and then a secretary, um, uh, well, the secretary in my office used to work with Matt Giggs in Countrywide Days and I've been following Matt on LinkedIn. She went you're like Matt, you should speak to him. Reached out to Matt in 2018, got mentored by him and he just blew my mind. So I was very data orientated. Matt is the complete opposite, right? So I think we complimented each other very well and he just opened my eyes. And then, all of a sudden, you've got like you. You guys will know. It's like this, like echo chamber within the industry, and I then started hearing all these different names and people started following uh, all of those and uh, I then got introduced to sam hunter by matt gigs. He was like some new geek out on all that data stuff sam's launching. I don't know what this thing is. Home search. I was like Simon, you geek out on all that data stuff Sam's launching. I don't know what this thing is. Homesearch I was like, okay, cool, signed up and I was the biggest user of HomeSearch in 2019 when it was its infancy beta phase, and I got on really well with Sam.

Speaker 2 10:55

And, to cut a very long story short, I was in London doing training CRM training actually and he invited me over to lunch at canary wharf and I went and sat with him, had lunch, went up to the offices and carry off. I was like this is fucking amazing. Like this is awesome. I went home that day to to my girlfriend at the time. I was like my god, I want to work for that guy. I want to work there. This is unbelievable. Little old simon gates from newport pagnell in one canada square looking down on london. She's like why don't you? I was like I'm little old, simon Gates, that's not possible. And then, january 31st 2020, my phone rings. It's Sam. I was having a really shit day. His name came off, so I always have. The time was that I was like hello mate. It's like good day, mate, do you want a job? And I went yeah, right, and he went are you being serious? I went are you being serious? And later that night I emailed the MD and said I quit. What's next?

Speaker 3 11:46

and then what happened?

Speaker 2 11:47

he, he didn't react too kindly to that. Um, yeah, um, I in hindsight I didn't. I emailed because I wanted it to be formal. I knew if I went to his office and said I want to quit, he'd just say here's a couple more grand a year, um, and put his arm around me and you know if I'm gonna be all right. I just that had happened too many times before. I was like no, this needs to be. And the the final, uh, like nail in the coffin again, I was showing this outside.

Speaker 2 12:16

I was sat in my office uh, friday night must be an eight nine o'clock and my mate was in the gym opposite upstairs and he took a photo of me on a weird way, took a photo of me. What's that mean? What the fuck are you doing in the office at eight nine o'clock on friday night? And that was normal for me. Yeah, earlier that dad said, sam, I'll take the job. No idea what I'd be paid, what I'd be doing, anything like that. But that photo from my mate doesn't realize how much he did to me. Maybe if he'd never sent me that photo, I wouldn't have done it. And I just, yeah, what am I doing? Just sent an email and went. I'm giving my notice.

Speaker 3 12:48

Tell me what's next it's a funny thing, estate agency, when you're in it to that degree, isn't it, whereby, like, you're working that level, that amount of work, weekends, evenings and if someone said, like, why not just do something else, you're still just like no, this is my thing, you know? I mean you just, you're just like totally, there's nothing about it that you think is weird. Anyway, in the middle of doing, it and sadly, it's obviously coming.

Speaker 1 13:10

You're coming on a day off and you're like they go, why are you coming on a day off? Yeah, it's like I'll just pop in, see, I went in town and everything, yeah, and what's happening with that deal and what's happening with that deal and it was like weird, yeah, go. And have a life yeah, um, okay.

Speaker 3 13:23

So then switching over to the prop tech side of things. Now you've got to actually deal with agents. Yeah, that you, I'm guessing, are hoping are all a bit like you were, but find out, yeah, they aren't so how did that thing go?

Speaker 2 13:36

I thought it's gonna be a piece of piss. Like the success I'd had with home search, um was phenomenal. I was like where's this being my whole career, just having access to the data? Um, and this is when I joined home search. It was march 1st 2020, so obviously a few weeks before covid. So let's just like park over to one side.

Speaker 2 13:52

I was like I'm just gonna bring up loads of estate agents showing this piece of tech and they're like, oh, my god, this is amazing. I exhausted my existing network very quickly agents I've been in chains with and whatnot. But then I thought the agency I'd worked him with, the name would have a lot of weight, because when you're in that business that you didn't look outside the four walls, that business, you, you would kind of I'd know hypnotizers, thinking that was the only agency. So like I'd be ringing up. Oh yeah, I worked for this 12 branch like the best agent in bucks beds norfantico never heard of it. I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting. Um. So, yeah, we went into lockdown. And that was a big aha moment for me because at the start, when it was proper, like, uh, startup, my god, it was not exciting, just cold calling estate agents and them telling you to piss off, which I'd be doing if I was them. Right, they're getting tech, prop tech sold to them left, right, center, and most pieces of prop tech is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Speaker 2 14:47

Um, whereas I felt sam had created co-created home search, because when he came in from ours he was like it's really weird that this system doesn't really exist at the moment. Um, and then that's where, and we're chatting about this off air. Um, rob where started reading and observing a lot of daniel priestley stuff who obviously know you guys have got connections with, and I was like huh, this whole like key person of influence thing. I was like, rather than just cold calling and sending shit emails to estate agents, if I build my own brand, maybe I'm going to attract people to me. Um, and I found that there was lots of, let's say, bdms within the business who were making hundreds of cold calls and getting nowhere, but I was just putting a post out a day on socials um, appearing on a podcast here and there, and then people were coming towards me yeah, um and uh.

Speaker 3 15:36

So then let's fast forward. What five years? Um, what, what, what? You, just what? Why did you decide to leave hampshire?

Transition from Agent to PropTech

Speaker 2 15:42

so I was at home search for three years and I think after year two we got an investment from octopus ventures. Um, and that's when it changed from exciting prop tech startup where we never had this. But you know the whole, like people think, or steven butler would say, about the slide down and the ball pit and all that stuff. It wasn't that. But, um, sam was moving back to australia and he was sort of x in the business. So sam was one who brought me there. He was like my mentor, um, and I kept getting approached by so many estate agents saying you've worked as an estate agent, you've worked in the prop tech world. Um, we like that. You've got that combination. Would you come and do some work with us on how we can be better estate agents? Um, and then I lost count of how many times that was being asked and as home search had kind of changed it become more corporate with the investment, I was like actually there's an opportunity here for, uh, I should do it. And I was like if a certain percentage of people who said they would work with me do, I can still pay my mortgage. And I would say I'm usually risk adverse. But then people saying, well, if it doesn't work out, you go get a job in another prop tech company, yeah, um, or just go back to being an estate agent.

Speaker 2 16:49

And I think I was a bit of a crossroads because, um, I'd seen a lot of the same just go down the self-employed route, obviously that kind of revolution. During covid I was like, am I missing a trick here? Should I go back there? Because all this, all these state industry experience I've got, and then what I've learned from being on the other side, in the prop tech side, but I just, yeah, over those three years at home, such I just loved building relationships for state agents and helping them, um, and that's, yeah, why I decided to, uh, to launch what I'm doing now, but it again.

Speaker 2 17:58

Going back to the like, uh, daniel precy thing, um, I started my podcast, recording it before and after work when I was at home search, as a hobby, because I'm just an absolute stage, the geek. I wanted to ask. The questions were not being asked. I wanted to get the answers that I was looking for and because I had no ulterior motive. I think that's why it did well, um, and then, yeah, six, six months after launch that podcast, I quit working at home search and started my own thing.

Speaker 1 18:26

I've got a question because obviously you've been known to being around data and obviously, like most of the time data and having an existing career in a state you don't tend to go forward hand in hand because a lot of them say you know, like data is just I've got 20 000 contacts on my database, so, like what, what was your interest in data like? Was it something that you know? A kid at school I was really good at mathematics or what, what like? What sparks that interest? Because I'm like you're sitting, I'm between two people that obsess about data, but different types of data, um yeah, um, I say when I was, when I was, I was younger.

Speaker 2 19:09

The first thing that comes to mind, the two things that come to mind when you ask that question, one like football, football data from a particular period I'm a lunatic with. Like I could name every single Premier League champion in order, from start to finish, go, actually, I'll cast it, or name every single Premier League team there's ever been like doing those sorts of things, uh. But the other thing you made me think of is when I used to I don't know about you guys, but when I get a computer game when I was younger, like normally people stick the disc in or the uh tape, whatever it was. They sit and start playing. I'd like read the manual so I'd be like right, okay, so circle is a shot. But if you double tap circle it's going to be a lob shot or something, for double tap square, it's a low cross, like that sort of thing. Are you getting like it?

Speaker 3 19:53

No, no, no, I just love it because there's a real passion in there. Like you know, I'm not saying that I would be the opposite to that. I'd be like, fuck the manual, we'll figure this out. And then I'd have to go back to the manual because, like, I can't play it. But like you know I'd be because I'd be getting beat by somebody like you. That's love. Shame it. Yeah, so, yeah, so and I'm going how 'd you do that?

Speaker 2 20:12

yeah, like you'd be my chat gpt, yeah yeah, but I think, like I am uh for today for a lot of estate agents, I am like a chat gpt for them and that's yeah where my business is. So, whilst uh rio says earlier, before recording, uh, one of the clients I've worked with said, uh, what's that data from right? Move about how reduced properties perform versus non-reduced properties. Bang, done, sent it over. Yeah, like I know the stats immediately. Would you like that in excel?

Speaker 2 20:41

yeah yeah, exactly so, knowing that data um, but in terms of like the um from an estate agency uh perspective, I think this is a really good example. So I would have had in my office to negotiators and to part-time admins and before tracking the data, I was noticing that there was a difference between who books the appraisal and my conversion rate and what fee I judged.

Speaker 1 21:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2 21:08

So I'm'm like hang on a minute. So this person here I'm getting near a two percent and a 50 60 conversion. But then this one here it's close to one percent, this 30 to 40 conversion. Why is that? And then you look at the notes from the crm. Someone's literally just gone. Well, you're going to a four-bed detached at three o'clock on saturday whereas the other person's gone. You're going to see Simon and Louise. They're upsized and they got two dogs. They've been home for this long and I'm like cool. So that was important to me.

Speaker 2 21:34

I think on the CRM side of things as well, it used to irritate the shit out of me the archive button and I know I've heard you guys speak about this a lot. But for example, someone buys a house through me on the 19th of the month. I'd fast forward that to the 19th of the month a year later. Right, head office would go no, no, no archive, because we want a clean database. I'm like okay, but I want to ring them and say happy one year anniversary.

Speaker 2 22:02

Can you believe it's been 12 months If I come around and see what you've done to the place, kind of thing. And I think the other thing just on the crm, my like bible every day because I had the benefit of having a dozen other offices within the network was uh withdrawn, uh buy with house to sell locally, and the lost ma reports. So every day I would check those and be like they're the people I'm going to spend most of my time with um, because I knew that's where the gold was. So if the buyer had a house to sell locally I was like guys, if we find them somewhere they're going to sell for us. Yeah.

Speaker 2 22:31

And then the ones that have withdrawn. There's a good chance they'll come back to market. I want it to come back to me. And then the lost ones let them experience it. As a state agency, I'll get it second time around, more motivated, more realistic on price and more willing to pay my fee. Yeah, you loved Lifecycle.

Speaker 3 22:45

Oh yeah, yeah well yeah, so the agents that you see. Now, what would you say? Imagine you're going to see a new client next week, but you've seen enough of them, now that you've got a pretty good idea as to like one or two of the things that they're going to ask you, what are those things that they keep on saying like, regardless of who you go and see, what's the most common things that they ask you?

Speaker 2 23:10

I think, because of my background, direct mail is a big thing that gets us and I'm the biggest direct mail advocate going um because I've had success on it myself and then have seen others. But going back to I think we're saying it before we hit record people tend to come to me thinking direct mail and then you have a couple of conversations and find out the size of their database and not making this like a plug for you guys but you find out the size of their database and how often are you having conversations with them? It's like don't spend money on direct mail when it already exists in your database. Particularly on like I'll show you there's a really good off the top of my head.

Speaker 2 23:49

It's some research from Zoopla showing this propensity to move between like three to seven years of ownership I'm sure you guys probably have some sort of data from Lifecycle whereas, like this business being established for 10 years. It's like, have you ever gone and phoned up people who bought through you? And actually one of the other things I used to measure was anyone who bought a house sorry, sorry again anyone who sold through me. Did they buy through another estate agent?

Speaker 2 24:14

locally yeah, because I used to go into our crm system and duplicate their record and change their address and then I'd have no ma booked but I'd have a next call date. If you imagine, they bought a house through rob but they'd sold through me and I ring up and go god, it's been a year since you bought that house and I, rob, didn't remember to phone me. Simon did yeah um.

Speaker 2 24:32

So yeah, I think the um. They typically ask about direct mail and then I'm normally like well, let's look at your existing database. Yeah, I think the key thing as well is the percentage of properties that don't actually sell. So at the time recording, only about 55 of properties do actually go on to sell. Do you think it's?

Data-Driven Agency Success

Speaker 3 24:50

okay. Do you think that often you find because it sounds familiar to some of the conversations that I've had with agents um, whereby I sort of think to myself even though I wouldn't like going back to what you were saying before, even though I wouldn't get a computer, go what you were saying before, even though I wouldn't get a computer game and read the manual, like there's some similarities there in the sense that like, if I go into an estate agency and they start talking to me about their I don't know, not necessarily their problems, but you know they put some ideas on how they want to do this and that, but very quickly you start to uncover that like you're not even. You don't even know how much you make profit on each sale, or you don't know what happened to all the completions last year. You don't know which of your buyers have got houses to sell. You don't know basic things that you consider basic. The most people you meet go that's fucking genius.

Speaker 2 25:45

Yeah, it's interesting you say about that being basics. Again, I think sometimes I'll have conversations where, yeah, I sometimes I miss, miss off things, I don't say things. I think it's just so basic, um, but actually they're not doing it so interesting on your point there. So, uh, in my last year as an agent, 38 of what I sold was second-hand stock. That's because I had a strategy to target the second-hand stock and about 18% of what I sold I'd gone to value but said I'll let you go experience shit estate agency, I'll get you next time around. And then to your point around the profit.

Speaker 2 26:20

I think it's really important for estate agents to know that per transaction one, you should know it. But also to help um protect your fee. When a seller is trying to say, will you knock x percent off? It's like that's my profit. I've just, I'm not not a charity um and for me, uh, based on the figures within my branch, every market appraisal booked was worth one thousand pounds, right.

Speaker 2 26:41

So I used to say to the guys in the office when you're booking that market appraisal if it's a two minute conversation, what does a two minute £1,000 phone call sound like? Does it sound like, yeah, I was here three o'clock Saturday, or is it? Is it a, you know? Good morning Simon speaking. How can I help? And I had someone on my podcast I can't remember who it was off the top of my head but they'd found that when they'd done training this isn't a state agency related generally, but when someone answers the phone in the morning, I don't know if you guys would have found this like good morning, simon speaking. At four o'clock in the afternoon. It'd be good morning, simon speaking. Yeah.

Speaker 2 27:13

So you see a clear differentiation in that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 27:17

There's a great book about that, called when. That allows you to identify where those points in the day are for yourself so that you can put the most. You can put the most productive meetings at the most productive points in your diary rather than, like you know, you've got super important meetings at, say, two o'clock in the afternoon, but once you identify that two o'clock in the afternoon, you're like just a pile of mush. Yeah, and you did all the unimportant shit like checking your emails at 9am when you was like fully up for it. You know, it's just, it's an interesting point. I just the reason I sort of mentioned it was just because, like listening to you talk there, it's like I can feel that same thing whereby, like you know, often an agent is looking for the next, they're looking for the next silver bullet strategy, but there's so many.

Speaker 3 28:03

It doesn't matter if they're doing direct mail. If they're doing direct mail, if they're doing data you know, cleansing if they're doing, like you know, prospecting digital prospecting, google ads, facebook ads they're looking for the next thing. But actually the most immediate steps forward they could make in their business would be to finish the thing that they actually started in the first place. Do you know what I mean? And just do the basics of what you're supposed to be doing to begin with. You know your branches that you were running when you were an estate agent, before you had access to home search, before you had access to, like you know, cutting edge technology. You're just doing the basics better than everybody else, which is why you were winning right yeah, I said so, I was.

Speaker 2 28:43

I was asked on um, so I I was on matt gigs's podcast the other day, as were you. I think you were after, yeah, the debate one, yeah, yeah, debate one. And and matt had said to me and simon whale, what comes first, people or tech? And I I said, well, I'll take that one. I said I would say people, because you can have the best tech in the world, but for people behind the desk of shit, they don't, they're not motivated, what you know.

Speaker 2 29:10

Uh, this is something actually a bit off topic, but the company I worked in, they thought the brand was so amazing. The owner once said in a meeting you could shit in your hands and clap and it's still instruct you. Um, and I was like, well, I disagree with that point. Um, because if you look at the conversion rates within all the different offices, why is his better than his and his better than his and whatnot? Um, so, yeah, I think, like the, the people side of it is important. But on your thing, like the whole silver bullet, I've seen agents who will do one thing and it will get an amazing result and you're like it's a double, triple, quadruple down there. But it's as if they think it's a one-hit wonder or they got lucky. So they then go searching for the other thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 29:50

But it's like no, keep doing those things. And I think that's the thing with agents as well. I remember in home search days obviously we had the stamp duty holiday in 21 or whatever it was trying to. I'm going to to. I'm gonna say, sell direct mail to estate agents in 21, when they're like I'm not being funny, simon, like I've got two nights, it's chaos. I was like, uh, what's that saying, um, build the leaky roof when the sun is shining? Yeah, kind of like if you want to do it now, uh, victory's not. Yeah, you want to do it now because you'll be coming to me once your pipeline is depleted, going shit, we need to market. And you're six months behind. And I said earlier about the advice I got on my first day, uh, as an agent, uh, doing work experience. When I became a branch manager, I asked someone who was very, very wise, uh within the business, who got years of experience, said what's the best advice you can give me?

Speaker 2 30:35

and he said always look 90, um 90 days ahead and at times like again, what shit advice yeah but I started running this branch, really worked hard, then got loads of sales in, then had to chase them through and, funnily enough, 90 days later, going oh shit, where's where's my pipeline of new instructions because I stopped marketing. So it's making sure you're not on that vicious roller coaster of up and down. You've got to continue to be marketing. And going back to the point earlier of uh, most societies are obsessed with the here and now right, who they do business with. But it's actually well, I I I think I was listening back to one of uh one of the podcasts I was on uh on the train and it's like, if you've got 10 000 people and I know I'm preaching to conversative but if you've got 10 000 people in your area, it's like I just want the name and contact details for them. I don't care for selling today or in 10 years, if I have those 10,000, I'm winning.

Speaker 3 31:27

Yeah, I think people often see it as like a trade-off. Like you know. You talk to them about you should think about future business and they kind of go like, yeah, but I need business today. It's like I don't know, they're not exclusive for one another. Yeah, yeah, you don't have to only look for future business or only look for business today. You have to look for business today and try and make your life easier in the long term by looking for future business.

Speaker 1 31:52

Even just on a simple and instant valuation data point coming in. Now the educational process you go through with someone saying not every instant valuation that's going to come in is going to be converted into a market appraisal straight away. Short term, long term. You're attracting the leads in. Yes, yes, you'll find a percentage that will convert. You go out to, you get your quick win.

Speaker 1 32:13

But you know, five years down the line of us doing this now the amount of people I only had one last week, an agent. It was back in like 2021. One of the first people in there were in their system, had just literally called him up and said, uh, can you come and take my house to the market? And he's like, wow, this is really cool. Goes back and says it was like every newsletter pieces of content four years down the line. But if you had said to someone you're gonna send a newsletter to this person for the next four years and then you get a business, people think, oh, fuck, they're doing that I've got a prime example in my in my home search days where I said to a dozen agents I was like I guarantee a one million pound instruction.

Speaker 2 32:46

You need to send them one letter on the first day of every month for a year. Would you do it? And all said no, I probably forget can be asked, but I'm guaranteeing your instruction is just 12 months away yeah yeah, no, it's crazy.

Speaker 3 32:58

So of the agents that you coach now, do you see, um? You know you must have some agents that just smash it out of the park and some agents that just sort of yeah, well, I think I'm going to give it a rest now. Um, what would you say is the big difference between those that um do well with it and those that think maybe they just go and move on to something new?

Speaker 2 33:21

so I think we've already just touched on one part actually, in that I've found there are some agents at the moment, at the time of recording, going maybe I knocked this on the head and that's because they've had quite a decent exchange, month or two in the covid um stamp duty deadline, yeah but then they've gone. Shit. I now don't have a pipeline, so they're conscious of I haven't got any money coming in, but the very best ones knew that you've got to be prospecting months in advance. We knew this was going to happen. It irritates me when an agent goes. I've had an unexpected VAT bill. What's unexpected about a VAT bill? If you're VAT registered, you know you've got to pay it once a quarter, right, it's like so yeah, it was unexpected. Okay, well, you knew this stamp she's deadline was coming. History shows us that you normally get a lot of transactions just before the deadline and then there won't be many after. Yeah, every year we get this unexpected summer holiday yeah, like it'll be yes, so yeah, it just yeah.

Speaker 2 34:22

and then, in terms of ones who, yeah, just keep smashing it, they have a bias for action. So when I, I share this a lot at the moment, but the gap between idea and execution is minuscule. It's like I'll go see agents. And there's one I was seeing in Essex, actually not that long ago, and I can't remember what the journey home in the car was call it. A couple of hours by the time I got home he's like I've done xyz, and I'm like well, I went to see another agent earlier this week and I messaged him a few days later just how you getting on yeah oh yeah, I've not had a chance to look at that yet.

Speaker 1 34:53

Yeah, you, you must have that a lot oh yeah, I mean I literally only had one agent. I had a cool coaching call last week with very, very, very busy, so exactly what you're saying. And I was explaining to him like you were very, very busy now and and not to plug life cycle, they've been busier since because they've got them out of data and volume, so naturally it's like churning more data. But I said you can't wait till it goes quiet before you do it. So we need to do this. And I said like they've been procrastinating on a journey for like three months just to get one major journey.

Speaker 1 35:23

I said like every month I'm seeing this. Like you've got 307 people that have just registered into your database, that have got a property to sell that's not on the market in your area and at the moment, yes, we're sending stuff out to them, but you could be really targeting them. And so I was like but we're really busy. I was like I said I I've got another client I'm literally about to speak to after you who's running an agency. He's doing the valuations, he's got a team under him, he's got a letter in his book, he's doing this. And he smashed out within like two days and I said so like it's the action.

Speaker 3 35:56

Yeah, I think anyone can get busy, can't they? Yeah, the point is is that, like you know, if you just strip it all away for a minute, strip it all away and go like, okay, there's 307 potential listings here is there? Is there many things more important than what I've just told you about?

Common Questions from Agents

Speaker 1 36:14

cool, yeah I mean, and obviously off the back of that, like within two days, they all collaborated together and actually did it at the last brand.

Speaker 3 36:22

I remember at the last brand workshop. We did a workshop a little while ago about brand and uh, some guy come in and was doing the workshop for us and it was all great and an ultimate the at the end of it all. We were talking about them putting together a formal brand book and I can remember at the end they're standing up saying look guys, I know you're all busy, I know you've got a million things to do and I know putting a brand book together is a long-winded task, but just think back for a minute to your startup days. You've fucking knocked this out in 24 hours. So, like you know, just fucking get on with it and let's have it done by next week. And it really is just that, isn't it? It's like are we doing this or are we doing it just for the sake of feeling like we're doing something?

Speaker 2 37:00

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I saw James Humphrey Stone put something on socials not that long ago and it might be something that's widely known. I've never seen it before, but it's like the difference between busyness and business, just like that. Why, over the eye? I was like, yeah, so many agents who are. It's easy to just think you're being effective and moving the needle in your business by being busy, right, one of the things I see actually, when I go and spend time with agents and once we finish let's call it a workshop, the first what do you think the first thing an agent does after being closed in a room like this for two hours? Let's say we're going through whatever we're going through. What's the first thing they do after that? Go and check their emails exactly yeah I'm glad you answered it.

Speaker 2 37:40

Like that they go and check their emails. You're letting someone else control, like you're it?

Speaker 3 37:45

just yeah wait, wait, the way back to a 10 pound an hour time sometimes we go into.

Speaker 1 37:50

When we did the reax event um last time, uh, yeah, you go into that sort of basement east old cinema complex and there was signals down, there was quite thing, and everyone came out. I said you know what's really nice? One of the things I said about the whole day was I didn't get my signal, didn't get bombarded by my team. I could actually just watch this and enjoy the day.

Speaker 3 38:07

I think it's important for us to say like none of us are saying like, oh, they're so silly. Like everybody's the same in life, like you know, if I go to my, just set up my laptop and start working, I'll be busy yeah like, and I'll have those days whereby I'm like I am knackered, and someone will say to me yeah, what did you manage to get done? Today? You're like I don't know, really, but like loads of stuff, but I can't really name anything.

Speaker 1 38:33

Yeah.

Speaker 3 38:34

As opposed to just trying to have some sort of like we call them rocks. Having some sort of rocks that you're constantly being reminded of, like you say, like looking 90 days ahead, kind of like what has to be done in the next 90 days for the needle in this business to actually move? I know you're going to fill up the rest of the day with little bits of sand and stuff, but what are the rocks that, like these are non-negotiables. You know, if you, if you're worried about your brand and you need a, a va, to do that for you, or if you're, if you're trying to do direct now and get it off the ground and get new instructions, like that's a rock, like you wouldn't be asking about it if it wasn't important. So, like, don't be turning around after you've given me, given the advice, and say I was a bit busy with that, just right, what?

Speaker 2 39:21

yeah, try easy, and it's so easy to make yourself busy with like those 10 pound an hour tasks makes you feel good, take yourself on the back. I sent a load of emails or, yeah, I did this, I did this, but are you actually doing the things which are productive, are gonna move business forward?

Speaker 1 39:36

so so, uh, because you're, because what we've got I speak to, obviously we speak to a lot of agents on different um sort of levels of where they've gone through established establishment, on businesses wise, some are startups, some are a couple years into it, some are five years down the line, 10 years down the line, 20 years down the line. Obviously you're still relatively new, newer in your business, startup phases effectively. So, like as this podcast is, is also supporting people who may be in different stages. What would you, is there any advice you'd probably give? Looking back, if you were going back to the day one of startup your business, to where you are now, so I'm giving advice back to that business owner and saying, like, when you do this, I'd recommend doing these sort of things and don't do this shit.

Speaker 2 40:25

Yeah, for everyone in that style phase like self-employed agent yeah, let's, let's use self-employed because that's good, that's a, that's a good example. What you see a lot of and again, I think we've touched on it what you see a lot in the self-employed world is like what color shade should my logo be? And so it doesn't fucking matter. I didn't have a logo when I started my business for I don't know a few months, um, and then my girlfriend was like, oh yeah, I've, um, my, my brother's mates, the designer who's got you a logo. I was like, yeah, cool. She's like, uh, let's. I was like, no, you choose.

Speaker 2 40:55

Honestly, I've got I'm too busy helping agents make money to just hold a logo. And I don't know whether this is a good or bad thing. I'm gonna say good because when I started my business on the 1st of March 23, I just put a post out on socials. I've already created my audience by trying to be a key person of influence. It's funny, right? The first time I read that book by Daniel Priestley, it clearly sunk in and I didn't realize I'd read it. I started reading it again. I was like oh, I've done this.

Speaker 2 41:22

I've read it before, so I need to start like putting like a mark in a book to say I wrote it before. But first March I put a post out saying I'm starting my own business. Anyone's interested? Here's a link to my Calendly and my diary just went bam bam, bam, bam, bam bam. To this day, my website still says either under construction or coming soon, I can't remember which one. I still don't have a website.

Identifying Your Business Priorities

Speaker 2 41:51

Two years in, I've worked with over 200 estate agents awesome, so I had a bars for action. But I had all my the whole 7-eleven 4 uh on my link tree, like all my podcasts that had been uh released. Um, any interviews I'd done, like this sort of thing, any webinars I've been on. And then I just made sure I was turning up at every single event, going like if I could, could beg, borrow steal to get tickets to whatever it could be. In early, just before I launched, actually, you spoke at an event for Jerry Lyons and I saw you there. We sat on the same table, yeah, so I went to that. And then, not that long after that, you held an event Barnet direction.

Speaker 1 42:26

Yeah, hi Barnet, the EAX 7, 8.

Speaker 2 42:29

Yeah, and you invited me to that and I just kept showing up everywhere. And people kept saying to me God, you're everywhere. I think actually one of the pieces of advice was and I had a lot of people say to me here's what I would do if I was you, and I wrote down everything they said and I wrote down the opposite on the other side of the page and I did the opposite of what they said. So it might sound mad, but it's like to be different. You've got to do it differently.

Speaker 1 42:57

And that's quite interesting because you think about that in even the state agency terms, like for advice of someone out there, even in stay agency terms, like the advice of someone out there. It's very easy for an estate agency to go with the grain of what everyone else is doing in the industry because you've been keeping up with the whole of the industry and it's very scary sometimes to do that right down to what everyone's doing, flip over and do what everyone else is not doing in fear of like, oh, but what happens if you know these other community people in the agency but forgetting actually you're not serving the people that you're in a community Facebook group or estate agents. You're trying to serve your business and your clients and make that better and make your business better.

Speaker 3 43:32

So I love that. Yeah, I went on to that podcast. You mentioned with Matt that I was on after you. Like, the person I was debating with was talking about some stuff and I can't remember what Matt's question was. I was debating with was talking about some stuff and I can't remember what Matt's question was, but I was saying to him, like one of the issues that I see with estate agency is that a lot of estate agents are waiting for estate agency to solve their problem. Like estate agents need to raise their fees, estate agents need to leave right move. Estate agents need to be better. Estate agents need to there better Estheticians need to. There's no such fucking thing. It's just your business. You decide the fucking rules and you make your business work however the fuck you want, and it doesn't matter about it. If everybody did it, you'd have to rethink it again.

Speaker 2 44:12

What's a perfect example of that. Today is the fifth anniversary of Avocado. Yeah, I don't think you can get a better example than that in ripping up rule books, and you know, I think when iam, I mean it was fucking bold, wasn't it? Pink hoodies, and to be quite, an avocado as an estatesy brand? Yeah, I mean not just simon gates estate agents or emf mike robson, whatever have, especially his background as well.

Speaker 2 44:38

Yeah, come out of his successful independent people have just gone like that's the battle and I think like I can't remember the exact ins and outs, but he's left that very traditional environment. He's then spent and I've seen this from a few different agents he's spent a few months to go speak to the best of the best in their expert field. Then he's gone for action. So it's a bit of a reading the manual, like I said, but then having a bias for action. When I interviewed him on my podcast, it was the early days of my podcast. Avocado was maybe two years old at the time and he said, like before he launched he'd written a hundred blogs or something. Obviously, today AI can obviously like you know that but I was like so sorry, before you've even gone live've got 100 blogs or whatever. It was something like that.

Speaker 2 45:25

So, like with my podcast, I think the summer I started it, I recorded 50 episodes and, like you see, so many podcasts come and go right because they they record one or two, release them nothing happens. I think an example of that as well. I'm digressing, but you can have the best podcast in the world but if you don't promote it, it's irrelevant. Like I use the example of let's use duane, the rock johnson, like one of the the most famous movie stars in the world. Yet he'll still travel the world when he's got a new film going. You can go to the premieres and sit on the tv. Um shows. That's the job because, like I think, too many agents focus on the product rather than promoting the hell out of it.

Speaker 3 46:03

Yeah, they're focused on what seems so logical. Surely, if I'm offering I don't know, a slightly cheaper fee than somebody else and everything that person is offering, it must be, but it just doesn't work like that. You need the uniqueness in your business, you need to be putting it out there, you need the 7-Eleven-4 stuff you were talking about being present on the socials, on the market, whatever the marketing is. Whether you're sending a physical letter, whether you're doing social media, whether you're doing email nurturing, like fucking, do something, move the fucking dial on something you know. Whether you're phoning your old completions, whether you're, like you know, investing in technology, like whatever it is. The, the, the basics that are already in place in estate agency are just being done pretty badly by 95 of people and we will raise the bar that much. You've only got to raise it a little bit and you'll probably start moving somewhere, right well from your podcast.

Speaker 1 46:58

You've mentioned, obviously, about your podcast, so how many episodes now you're on?

Speaker 2 47:02

uh, at the time of this conversation, episode 190 went live this morning oh, so you're almost like what almost close into that 200 yeah, I think I've. I think I've recorded the next eight or nine. It's almost there.

Speaker 1 47:17

So yeah, I'd 200th has probably been recorded this week and so from from uh, the episodes you've had on there, you've had a, you've had a variety of people in the industry, out of the industry on there, so like, uh, what would you say is like, I know obviously you're trying to pick your favorite child here, but what would you say? Someone like the most, uh, inspirational or motivational, interesting podcast that's always stuck a little bit more. You thought, do you know what I've actually? Or like a common theme you found with the most successful guests you've had on there and their, their ability, obviously as being successful estate and see owners or have some sort of value to impart knowledge onto people. Is there anything you, in those 200 episodes, you'd probably want to share on here to maybe actually on listening, thinking, actually I better take that advice yeah, again, I think we we've touched on a couple of bits of it, but a bias for action.

Building a Personal Brand

Speaker 2 48:08

There are people with average ideas who've become very successful because they've got a bias for action. There's people with amazing ideas we've never taken action. So, um, what would be a good example of this? Uh, ben g from hatton home. I don't know if you're familiar with that brand, I think when he launched he went to friends and family. He said this on the podcast and he said um, if you've got a house in my area, I really appreciate your support. Can you put a board outside that says hello, wokingham got the phone ringing? An agent who listened to my podcast, who was in the corporate kind of world, went and launched his own estate agency. One of the first things he did was go to friends and family and say, would you put a board up saying hello, let's say, newport, pagnol gets a phone ringing.

Speaker 2 48:50

So yeah, I think um having a bias for for actions, a huge one. Just consistency as well. I tried to practice what I preach. So the podcast goes out monday, thursday, 6 am. So I'd like to think if it got to midday on a monday or thursday, my podcast didn't go live. Someone would maybe ring me to check if I'm okay because it's like not got live, uh. But in terms, like you said, choosing your favorite child, I don't think I've got an issue in choosing my favorite favorite episode. I mean, a huge one for me was episode 100, which was professor damien hughes from the high yeah, where are you?

Speaker 2 49:22

asked um, and uh, it's quite funny because I've had some really good guests on and like let's use damien hughes as an example, you know co-hosting a high performance podcast, and people like how did you get him on? It's like just ask if she just asked the question. I got simon squibb on um and I was using a clever bit of tech. Um, so actually, just on that, very quickly. I went to see him speak in london at his book launch and he mentioned that he got an affiliate partnership investment in something. Yeah, um, and I utilized that to find his private email address. So I was like he's so like famous on social media at the moment and he's got a work email. He must get inundated. There's no way he's going to see my message. I literally found his gmail and emailed him within five minutes for set up a podcast nice, um.

Speaker 2 50:08

So I think again what I've just demonstrated there is a bias for action. Yeah, um, on that, um, and then, in terms of, so they're both outside of the industry. Um, if I was, uh, someone else I'm actually just going to say very quickly I don't know if you would have heard of someone called Phil M Jones. I don't know if that name would bring a bell. No, so he's author of a book called Exactly what To Say. It's got a few different series and one of them is called Exactly what To Say For Real Estate Agents, and I got him on my podcast. I'd probably say that's the best ever podcast I've recorded apart from you, rob, obviously and uh, what would you say the common themes you found with actual agents on there as well.

Speaker 2 50:49

Um, I would say the agents.

The Future of Estate Agency

Speaker 2 50:52

Who isn't marketing combination? I would say, going back to the 7-11-4 thing. So, uh, it's not super cool and it's not sexy to talk about knocking doors or sending out letters when you're a brand new estate agency. It's cool to be on a jet ski and, um, in a swimming pool and doing super sexy videos and stuff like that. Um, so you know the best agents. You know they're all over social media. They've got a great personal brand. Um, they're heavy on video, but behind the scenes they're not afraid of knocking a door or sending a direct message.

Speaker 2 51:25

I think a really good example of personal brand. I didn't chat about this when he was on the podcast, but I had Grant Bates on when he was still head of private office at Hamptons and I chickened out of asking the question, but at the time he had about 400,000 Instagram followers. How many do you think Hamptons have? Probably 50,000, 10,000. 40,000. Instagram followers. How many do you think hamptons have? No, probably probably 50 000, 10 000, 40 000. Yeah, so he had 10 times as many followers as the company that employed him. If that's not a signal for personal brand, I don't know what is, and then he's, he's left hamptons. I didn't know this when we're recording the podcast and I just like on his instagram, just like listing listing.

Speaker 2 52:03

Listing, listing, like yeah again, when I started my business, I didn't just one day wake up and go. You know, it sounds like a good idea. I'd got a facebook group to 1300 members. I'd released, I'd know, over 50 podcast episodes. I think you've got to. You've got to prove a concept yeah but, and then I think, once you're proving it, go a step earlier than you think you're ready.

Speaker 1 52:25

Yeah, very good like it anything else you want to add? No, well, I want to what? Last question before we jump off and we get kicked out because, um, what? Um, where do you see the industry going? This is a very open one, but like, where do you see, like, maybe, the industry going in your views towards? Like you know, it's only because the industry going in your views towards, like you know, it's only because the conversation you're having upstairs with rob, you know we're talking about corporates, independent, self-employed, uh, where, what's your opinion on? Towards it?

Speaker 2 52:55

um, self-employed will just continue to grow and grow and grow um, because, yeah, I think I mean, if I use myself as an example, we spoke about me being a branch manager. This isn't being anti high street um, but I couldn't think of anything worse than going back to having to be clean, shaven, wearing a suit and being dictated to what hours you're working. So, like today, uh, I'm down in london, so there's a few hours away from working, so, and I'm in leicester tomorrow, so I'll probably work a bit later tonight. I'll probably work a little bit earlier tomorrow morning. I choose my own hours. So I think self-employment will continue to grow and I think we can't touch on earlier.

Speaker 2 53:35

But the profit margins are so shit like in a state agency um that we're going to continue to see a lot of acquisitions by the bigger players who can then just swallow everyone else up, um, and then have um, economies of scale sound the right language on there. So I think, yeah, continue to be. You'll get like literally this, like massive cohort of, uh, the the big companies. You'll then get self-employed and then I still think you'll get some of the independent traditionals in the middle. But there'll be few and far between um and then I would say, god, we're always so far behind well, you guys know, but stay so far behind technology. We're so far behind america and australia real estate wise. But I think, um, we've not even scratched the surface yet.

Speaker 2 54:19

When it comes to the video side of things, I think it will get to a point where pictures won't even be a thing. It'll be all video based, um. And then obviously I'm talking to the right guys. But the ai side of things, um, surely we get to a point where I can just go hey, find me a four bed detached with half an acre plot, south facing, and newport pagnell, and then it pops up.

Speaker 1 54:42

I last time I came across someone who did the other day the video photos you know. You know used to do technology where you'd get the photos and it puts the video together and make the slideshow and that was their video thing. And I was thinking like crazy like people even still doing that as their form of Um right, yeah, brilliant, love. This podcast Probably could get you back on again to talk about all the data side to even more. So I appreciate you coming on, simon. Thank you very much, very good.

Speaker 4 55:07

Thanks for listening to this estate agency X podcast. Can you make sure that you're actually subscribed to this podcast channel If you liked the content? Uh, it helps us massively to get better guests, and it just helps us generally. So you might think you're subscribed, but just have a double check whatever your podcast platform of preference is that you're actually subscribed and then that way we can continue to grow the channel and get better and better guests for you.