Rebuilding an Estate Agency That Lasts

From an online false start to a thriving 400-unit managed book, brothers Matt & Neil Baldock share how they rebuilt their estate agency around lettings, systems, and people. After six years outside the industry, Neil returned to join Matt in creating a values-led, community-driven business that now leads in HMO and professional co-living.

We explore how lettings became their ballast for steady growth, why structured hiring and emotional intelligence transformed their team and how real networking, not clichés, built credibility that compounds especially when it comes to selling.

If you’re ready to future-proof your agency with the right systems, culture and service mindset, this conversation is your blueprint.

🎙️ Listen now to learn how modern agency success blends technology, trust, and human leadership.

HMO Network

Leading Estate Agents of the World – Founding Members Launch

We’ll soon be introducing the first founding members of the network.
If you'd like to be considered for the launch event, register here

https://estateagencyx.co.uk/leadingestateagentsoftheworld

This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Meet Matt And Neil Bulldock

SPEAKER_06 0:00

So on this episode of Asset and CX, I'm with the Balled Up brothers, Neil and Matt. So if you uh are in the industry and you had never heard of them, then I don't know where you've been living. Uh we cover a variety of things. I think Matt calls it the slices of the pie. So we cover uh their early agency days, why they set up their business. Uh they've got an HMO network, so we cover about HMOs, we talk about their estate agency dinners, uh their rebranding, their culture. So there's so many things in this hour-long episode to unpack. So I hope you enjoy this episode.

SPEAKER_05 0:31

State N CX, the UK's number one estate agency podcast discussing the future of estate agency, entrepreneurship, and business for hosts Mark Burgess and Rob Brady.

SPEAKER_06 0:43

So Matt and Neil, welcome to the show. Um for anyone listening out there who um might be living under a rock, we've got the Bulldogs Bug Bulldog brothers in today. Um so over to you, Neil first.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Well, thank you for having us. Uh yeah, my name's Neil Bulldock. Um obviously business partners with Matt, and uh we've been well, been an agency now probably for me about 22 years, something like that. Um had a bit of a break in my career and was a police officer for six years as well. Um and yeah, we've been running Charles David Cass, which is our agency for about 14 years now, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Nice. Oh yeah. Me, I'm um uh I'm I'm Matt Bulldock.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

You did this we you know I used to do first thing, it's usually Matt and Meal. I'm at loss now, like usually like it's it's taking my thunder. Yeah, yeah. I'm Matt. Uh yeah, yeah. I'm Matt Bulldock, and I am the older of the Border brothers, which no lot of people I think you'd look more useful, mate. It's funny, but and he's yeah, I I got looked because he got hype, that's the way Andrew. There we go with it. So yeah, I've been an agent for about 24 years, solid, straightway through, corporate, into then owning our own. I I I I never became a police man.

SPEAKER_06 1:52

And and what's your what's your setup at the moment? So um sales, lettings, property management for anyone who might be listening out there has just newly come across you because there's still thousands of agents out there who don't necessarily know network with anyone out there.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Yeah, so the agency is called Charles David Castle and we're based in Chelmsford in in central Essex. Um, full service, residential sales, residential lettings, property management, and also HMO specialists, um, as well as the agency. We have a business board of others, which is a consulting business to help other agents. Yeah, and we own the HMO network, which is like the Federation of Independent Agents, but for HMO specialists. Nice. Um doing that well.

SPEAKER_06 2:31

So many fingers and many pies, yeah? One one say everyone says 20 fingers in the AD5. We always say it's one pie with rules and slices. Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. Um so let's um let's unpack how I like to go back into let's unpack how how you got into Agency. So, first day of the industry, what was that like for you? Let's pull people back into what ADC used to look like.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah, it was alright. Um I mean he was he got me into it, yeah, to be honest. So I was always uh I was just into sales, like when I left school, I was into retail and selling camping gear, actually, was uh was what I did. And then um yeah, Matt said come and have a look at this. So I went to work for your move at the time, um think you were in Chumps, weren't you? And I did then I I was over in the Bishop's Dorford branch. Yeah. And um buffed it, mate, you know, got suited up, drove down there, uh picked up the phone and got to speak to the lads of poo, so that's good.

SPEAKER_06 3:26

And I was so it's early 2000s then, you said 22 years?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yeah, it would have been like probably 2002, something like that.

Early Agency Days And False Starts

SPEAKER_04 3:33

2002, 2003, yeah. Yeah, I was I was a couple of years old. So I I um I went to university, um, still an all degree. Um I walked out my last exam earlier to go to a barbecue, which my mummy's still sticks still at. Fashion of the telly you had a police officer and law, like they could have gone far, yeah. Yeah. In Geometry, there's one road as there would have been in many towns with like Estate Agents Road. Yeah. And I think I I didn't really know what I was up to, so I thought I think there's a pub there I was probably going to. Saw a guy sand from window in a sharp suit reading a copy of the sun for sweet. A few days later, walking down the road again, probably out back for the pub. And the guy's like, there again, copy of the sun. I thought, agency must be easy. So I printed it off the CV, delivered it to um all the agents up and down, got hired as a uh junior negotiator, got set, they didn't have enough room for me in the front office, so I got kind of set around the corner facing a wall, got given an African box back in those days. So it's an applicant box, got told to make five viewings with no problems whatsoever, but can you just add another viewing his and uh kind of then from there? I think within three months everybody had left, apart from me and the the the branch secret wedding secretaries back in those days. So then it was like I had to go do the listings, do the do do the lot real kind of Oh was that a your yeah, was that a your move as well? That was so the Spicer McCall, yeah, Spicer Heart um thing there. So there, yeah, from there one of the guys that left asked me if they'd go work a your move so I went to your moving herself, and then they all wanted to get into it.

SPEAKER_06 4:56

So so okay, that's where the link was. I was about to say, like, he must have sold you down a river, mate, if you'd if he told you to join this industry where you sat out a wall not knowing what a viewing is, and so this is this is the best thing ever.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, but there was just something about it that I loved, and there was just something about it that you know he kind of there was a bug, and I've only probably managed to articulate it in the I don't know the last five years or so, so I always lied, I didn't really know why. Um but it's just because it's about the people.

SPEAKER_06 5:22

Yeah. And um um so how long were you at your move for then?

SPEAKER_04 5:28

So we were there for a few years uh quite a few years, because I was champsed, you were born for then you came to Champsford. Yeah, we kept switching bronze.

SPEAKER_06 5:35

And was you and were you were you sort of uh were you got to the point where you were both like competing against each other, was it? Or was it like it's not really competition? No, what a you I mean like were you evaluated, were you you get to the point where you're a valuers or whatever in those No back then then that was not the senior negotiator probably did the valuations, but also I pure just a salesman.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Neggin, yeah, yeah. Neggin all day long, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

And then I got sold, so they started franchising their business, yeah. So I got sold to like uh a fran I got told I'd be promoted and when I got there, they're like, oh can you know, there's this guy here now, owns a company. So um I it was a franchise. And then again I got in the old car over there. I've had to bail him out many times, yeah. Um and then way there. But no, we'd we always worked fairly well together. It was it was never kind of any competition. It was it was just uh fine. I mean, it's you know, you're in your early twenties, you know, you I think you're driving an Astros. I mean you think it's a smart car. Back in those days, you know, you you thought you're kind of having fun. Yeah. Um you probably didn't understand the seriousness of the job even and and what it kind of meant, and you're just fissing about really. Yeah. Um but but yeah, but then so we're both there, then you all left the being the police, and I kind of went for a d a couple of independence before then I I had a corporate back of a back of heart.

SPEAKER_06 6:47

Yeah. And so what made you change career? Uh what what did you did you have a night on the industry or was it just short.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Well, no, what happened was we um we always say we basically set up the the very first online estate agency business and um and it went horribly wrong. So we uh we set up this business uh called Essex Moving and uh we had this one night. Yeah, we had this plan. We had a proper like web platform built where you remember like the term for sale by owner, that's the thing at the time, before it actually became like um you know, you need an agent of some sort of seller house. So that's what we were doing. We had bought this for sale by owned a platform built, we uh spent a load of money on it, got ourselves this little serviced office. Um was this? So yeah, this was probably like 2005, something. Wow, yeah. So it was early as before all the ones that everyone knows about. Right move when letters on there, would they? Well, there wasn't any right move at the time. You had like property finder, fish for homes, all this sort of stuff. Yeah. Um yeah, maybe early, very early.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

Very early as an eye, but we couldn't go on any we couldn't go on any walk any pause. It's not like today, but yeah, they were like, you know, you're not an actual agent, yeah, and you you know you you can't come on. So yeah, it was trying to tow properties and say, come with us, we've got we've got our own website and no nobody can find. Uh but we had some business cards for him with director on them, so we fall with a big deal. We two early lunches and yeah, I mean we could go daddy website for about 12 quid.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yeah, yeah. So that's so basically that all went uh a bit peatong. And um so I actually went I was doing security work as well, like so I was a doorman um doing nightclub security to like pay pay the bills and stuff whilst we were trying to build this, and then I went full-time into that. I was like an area manager for that company running that, and then I just thought I need a proper career. Um so I joined the police and um yeah, so that's how I kind of six years, six years on. What was then six years in in Essex Police, yeah. Um and had some great times and built up a great network of people, um, had some great experiences. And then um, yeah, basically one of my mates came to me and he was in a he was um renting a flat and he was in a tenancy agreement and he needed to get out a bit. And he he said he rang me up and he said, Neil, I know you uh like in the property industry before, uh can you help me? I need to rent this flat out. They said if I can find someone, they'll um they'll let me out of the tenancy agreement. And I'd never done lettings before, so I just said, Yeah, yeah, no problem, I'll help you with that. Um stuck his flat on Gumtree, uh rented it out, and uh thought that was bloody easy. Um so I thought I would do that, and then I just started talking about it. So I set up my own letting agency basically whilst I was still in the police. Um and yeah, it just took off, and then uh that was another great name, I'll let it call. Uh Monster Homes.

SPEAKER_06 9:39

Monster Homes, yeah, I remember something. So I c I'm sure I'll come across a name like that in the past.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah, it's good. So we were doing uh Yeah, we were doing lettings for people, but I just grew it um I guess I just screw it to a size where I couldn't do both anymore. And um Matt was with Charles David Casson and then uh I had a son, my son was born, and I just thought only more flexibility for him, like getting told um yeah, you've done a 12-hour shift and now you can't go home because you've just arrested someone and or some incident's happened and you'd you're literally not allowed to go home. Doesn't work very well when you've got a young baby. Yeah um so yeah, I just thought, right, I'm gonna take the take the dive and um merged it in with with uh Matt and our two other business partners at the time.

SPEAKER_06 10:23

And then so so how how long how long had your business been established for the or the business been established for before then then?

Corporates, Police Work, And A Reboot

SPEAKER_04 10:30

Only about a year or so a year or so. So when when we spectacle cocked up our own uh this SEP business, Neil as they went into the um security and phase, I just went back to agency because that's all yeah, all I'd known. Um and then um I was working and I knew a couple of guys who had Charles David Casan. I only have about six months before something like that. They went open a second office and said so I I came in on on on on that. Um so we had two offices. Um the first, I mean I was running it by myself that when I was working 13 hours 13 hours, I wish, 13 day um weeks, I was only having every other Sunday off. Um trying to build and try and build it. Um and say, yeah, Neil, um there's there's quite you know, you you find the story, you know, I'll go and Neil will kind of just follow along, but I'll I've got to come. I've had another bad idea, Neil.

SPEAKER_06 11:18

Coming there, I found that one hours. You've you've done that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're not you're not gonna earn thirty Neil, you're gonna work 13 hours a day in the police room. That's a lot off, yeah. You're gonna come here and work hundred sleep children a week with a pension. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, drink a crown of you. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

Leave that. Yeah, leave that and work even more hours, the ones that you said you were gonna elite for. And come and do this. So, yeah, so Neil um came there, so probably I don't know, 2012 or something like that, 2013. And then 2014, we bought the other two business partners out, we sold the lettings book um to a corporate, um, and we transferred back to Chumpson where we've always lived with a handful of landballs that Neil had had originally um and started again, really. So it's a bit of a it's sometimes what people will say, you know, oh you know, when did the company start? Me and Neil were often because Neil gives us the factual answer or or what we said, and sometimes I even though we had it through through 2001, I I I look at 2014 as our real start again. Like a reincorporated, yeah. So I re-incarnate. Yeah, re-connet. That was just just me and him back in Chomps as where we live, where we've always known, and kind of, you know, not a completely cold start, because say we did have a handful of landlords, but a complete cold starting to have the sales. We hadn't done any sales over there, so actually function.

SPEAKER_06 12:29

And so you so like you know, you've been in the industry almost like for what, 14 years, wasn't it? Yeah, you were 12 in it. Yeah. You had done private let-ins, police work, and in that period of time. You had gone from different corporates, larger corporates to then working in independence, and then obviously in that earlier stage of it. Yeah. Uh what what did you want to bring in 2014 that you thought were the goods, and also what did you not want to bring because of the bad into the into the new business or reincarnation of a new business?

SPEAKER_04 12:59

I was massive what I didn't want to bring, which was maybe short-sided. I was massively against uh mortgages, like cross-setting mortgage. I was because of the corporate, you were so heavily hammered in the selling mortgage. So Friday would say, I think I had to my target was to list 10 properties a week. I'd do that by the Wednesday. You know, I I I hit my target, I won't make companies about it, I was really good as an employee listar. Um, but I wouldn't and I and my companion thing was through the roof, I would never hit my mortgage targets. And so rather than being like, Brilliant, if smash this target, smash that target, he was always that's not good enough. Yeah. And I don't know if I'd a bit of PTSD. So when I kind of like was in my own business owner, if you like, I was like, we're real estate agents, we're here to sell houses, nothing to do with mortgages, you know. Yeah, you do see, you know, yeah uh now it's a case of it doesn't have to be this or that, it can be hands, and you know, we can you have a mortgage referral situation where you can you can do it properly. But at that time, I was very much like, we're here to sell houses, we're here to help people on with their life journey. I don't want to get involved, yeah, and that bit.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Um Yeah, I think I just probably brought a bit of a different perspective because I'd been in like a few different industries and saw, especially the police, that must have brought some it some different structure. Yeah, absolutely. I think that sort of brought a lot of um yeah, I'm really big into like systems and processes and following a set of instructions at work. And I think that's what you get from the police, you know. Everything's very structured and like someone doesn't go to prison. Exactly, yeah, yeah, of course you bring someone down, so yeah, well and that's the thing, we say that you joke about it, but we say we have a saying in our uh property management department, like you know, people start panicking over a washing machine breaking down, and I'll walk in and say, has anyone died? And um when we first started saying that, people were like, What do you mean? And I'm like, Well, it's not that serious, is it? If it's like you know that because I'm used to dealing with things at that level, um, so someone's washing machine breaking down, they need it fixed right now, doesn't really bother me, it's just it's a problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you identify what the problem is and then find the solution. So I think more I just where a lot of people start as an estate agent and then become a business owner. I think I'd seen, especially in the security business I worked for, I'd sort of almost shadowed the owner of that. He was like a bit of a mentor to me at the time. So I kind of brought some of that business expertise. And what where we messed up in the past was getting too many overheads too quickly, um and not running it like an actual business. Yeah. And that's kind of what so I don't think I had like a crusade to change the state agency world. I just wanted to run a business and do it your way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:17

Yeah. I think that's where we compliment each other quite well, because we we have a a vision statement and a mission statement, and but they're probably more led by m by me because I have this thing about changing the a the state agency or profession, I'll try and call it an industry. Um whereas Neil has more of that kind of oh bird's eye view of a business, if I can and run it that way. So that's where we work.

SPEAKER_06 16:40

I mean when you look at like, you know, we discussed it briefly, like the ERS model, yeah, visionary operator, you know, the fact that you've guys both formed that partnership where it seems to be you're like a bit maybe a bit more driven head in the crowd sometimes, and and you're probably like, no, we need structures in place. It it needs to have that business because a lot of phage and owners out there on their own, they just dream up all this stuff, and then like the bit afterwards is like the action and implementation, and they're on to the next shiny thing, yeah, and they just go around in this hamster world realising like why has my business never changed? Like, it's because you're not ever actually doing anything beyond a month of trialing something new before you get bored and move on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

So and I think with lettings, especially you need that, it's just yeah, with with sales, you know, they're they're it's a very short period, don't go wrong with sales, they can on, but really with a car for kind of six months, yeah, then some Asians never see them again. Which with lettings uh A, you've got the rafts of legislation that keep changing, but you've got that constant relationship with the landlord. Yeah. And that was definitely the thing that because so when I was employed, I never I never did legs. I actually remember in the recession making a deal with our area manager that if we sold enough houses, they wouldn't make us do lettings. Because remember in 2008, everyone's lettings in. Yeah. Um so but I mean now I'm I'm completely converted. I believe every business should have a have a lettings business. But I remember taking phone calls off angry tenants, and then it was like the broken wheel of the tablets, and I was like, shit, what are we gonna do? But that was where Neil was with the police background, it was like, What do you mean, we're just gonna get it sorted? And so I was a typical probably sales than people pleaser because Neil was just a bit more level-headed.

SPEAKER_06 18:08

I remember now like uh when when I was back in agency, like you'd have a property on that was on for sale and it was let out, and like, you know, the the the manager would come back from the sales side, and like white guys have got to get it sorted out. Like, I've been there and like the taps drill or whatever, and you're like, calm down, mate. It's like no, it needs to be sorted, it needs to be sorted, and it's like look at in c in case he disinstructs me on the sales side, we've got to get this person, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

I know you can I still get that to this day though, like sales people don't really get the nettings and I guess the things sometimes.

Starting Over In Chelmsford

SPEAKER_06 18:39

100%. I yeah, I've but although I'm seeing more and more owners, especially owners and their teams, getting more in a holistic approach to it, a bit like you said about mortgages and a bit like that, like a bit more of a outside perspective and just one singular transaction. I'm I I'm just a car, I don't care about the rest. Um I think I think we're having to force our blend into it a bit more about like referrals and networks out of the side to it.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

But the thing is when you I just I always think with estate agency, estate agents are very much like I'm an estate agent. Yeah. Um and I don't know why, because like yes, you are an estate agent, but you're running a business. It's just an estate agency business, and every business is the same. It's got sales, operations, finance, and everything else behind it, but estate agents don't see that. So that's like they're like, no, it's just an estate agency. But the model of estate agency has hasn't changed since certainly since we started, and probably over time. Sell houses, you rent them, you get conveyancing referrals, mortgage referrals. And it's only when sometimes you do put a bit of like crusading in that actually you forget the business model is the business model. And I yeah, there is you've got to do it ethically, and there are right and wrong ways to do it. But ultimately it is a business, and multiple streams of income is what is needed to weather different um different storms, and that's where people get in trouble generally, is if they're struggling someone. Yeah, if you've only got one stream of income, when that goes up the wall or the the market changes, then you're a bit stuffed, aren't you?

SPEAKER_06 20:10

I mean, I yeah, I had a I mean I had I've had in the past over the last sort of five years, I've had a loan that say, like, oh, I'm gonna set up my letters book and keep the sales. And I'm thinking, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why are you doing it? It's like someone else told me to do this, you know. And it's like, have you how long have you have long have you waited before like they gave you that advice because it seems like they've just done it, and then and then you're thinking that's crazy, and it's like that I and I say, right, what's the reason to say the problem is managing it? I was like, okay, well, it's not it's not like the letters itself, it's the fact that you have you haven't found the right person to take on that role and you're still trying to do it. So like maybe not go hastily just sell it off and find someone maybe who could fulfil that role and alleviate from that. So you're right in what you're saying there. So 2014 you started, um, they were re reincarnated. Like, say what was the what was because obviously the podcast is predominantly for people who are business owners and entrepreneurs in the States. So like people listening out there, um if they're starting you in a different stage of the journey, you're more established now, you know. The guy we had on before was 11 years. Some people we've had in this podcast have been like just literally started out. So, like that 2014, what did it you said it was like fresh back to back to the area, yeah, fresh approach to all of it. So, what did that fresh approach look like for you? Was it a case of like having to still knock on doors, hustle the business?

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yeah, yeah, most definitely, because people knew Mann Neil, but they didn't know Charles David Cass. Yeah, exactly. Uh yeah, so yeah, it was. I mean, we were really early on on Facebook, so we've pretty much built the business on Facebook and Danger. Now I know there's like, you know, you're on Instagram, but we still maintain there's loads of business out there on Facebook. I think Facebook's called it a bit old-fashioned. Yeah. Um, or people think it is, but actually there's there's still loads of business there. So we we were really early on that. Um, but yeah, I've always been I think maybe my corporate upbringing, I've always been a tower. I don't really like Dawn Opton, don't get me wrong, I've I've done it in the past, but I preferred I used to um I when I was at Yorking with I used to train other agents on the old business card through the door, please call me back your problem. What to say after that? So that was my weapon of choice was just a business card through the door, handwritten less less evasive. Yeah, some something like that. Um so yeah, we we we had to do that. And then the other thing we got into really early on, I think, and uh Agent's doing it now, but only for the last couple years, is actually like networking.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:31

Um so we went for the breakfast networking groups, and then we still go in doing them um for for a long time. And again, it's the it's that is what we say about things don't have to be this or that. They have been, you know, you want quick money and you need to pay the long game. Yeah, and networking is very much the long game, 100%. But I guarantee any agent listening to this in two years' time is going to be sat there going, I need some listings. So that's why it's that you know, they'll say the best time to plant a tree is 30 years ago or today. So you you your door knocks, your tower, and whatever can get you quick money in, but your networking was the I was the wolf, and you said it was your private, so like what's this because I because I 100% agree with that.

SPEAKER_06 23:08

I was a I was a chairman of a networking group that we built up as an independent one. Um and people say to me, like, why'd you get up at like five o'clock on a Tuesday morning and go to that? Like what'd you get out of it? Do they pay you? It's like, no, just go to it because of networking with people, and then that led me on to like and uh so many different avenues, right? You know, we I became a a bit of a business improvement district off the back of it because a guy can be presented there, had not gone to that, I would have never been in that position, um, and other circle of people. Um, so what what would you say, like people someone listening are going, yeah, I like that idea, but uh nah it's like just virtual now and I can probably do it. Like, what what does it what does like what's the size of the group? What does it deliver to you? Because I've got a friend who's near not too far from you, actually he does sort of B and I networking.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah, well I well one just uh we we go to two different like so I was a B and I, let's say I started networking, and one of the things I would say to people is yes, one, it's about obviously sowing the seeds and getting some business out of it. But actually, I think if you looked back um I don't know, ten years now is probably when we started networking. You wouldn't have got me and him on this podcast without us being quite nervous about talking. So actually, from a personal development point of view, and you certainly wouldn't have got us standing up in front of a crowd doing light speech or whatever. Yeah. Um because the first time I did like 60 seconds of PI, I was like shaking and sweating, yeah, all sores. Um so yeah, I think like one is obviously go there for business, uh, but from a personal development point of view, certainly for me, I think that probably speaking fairly from public speaking, it's really even when I was a chairman, I used to get fucking nervous about welcoming the group every Tuesday, and it was on it's because I I couldn't I I haven't done B and I, yeah.

Lettings, Systems, And Real Business

SPEAKER_04 24:48

Um and actually he Neil is the more accomplished public speaker out of the two of us. I'm really good at this, even sitting down the standing up, it gets me sitting down, I can chat. But um I remember like he'd gone on holiday and I'd go and cover, and the one he was with you'd stand up and there'd be a f a a screen with a countdown clock and it would tick sixty, you know, and he'd be trying to like say who you were. Well and the cobbler's always behind you. She'd be turning around and then you panic, and then you'd be got him going a bit red here, and then once you start getting red, you'd go redder, don't you? Yeah. And then they'd had this awful buzzer that as you'd be would kind of go off. So you keep the meeting moving, haven't he? So yeah, I think maybe he got you know, maybe it's the police and the the rules, and again, you know, don't get wrong, we compose your south and lettings, but predominantly he's much more the legislation guy than I am, so maybe he enjoyed that. Because I'd be like, I can't do this, mate. These guys are fucking mental. But then he'd come to the ones that I'd go to. Um, I mean, mine's a mine are groups of about 20 of us, and he'd go, You're just pissing around, you're just kind of having a laugh. But I mean it's the same format. You you do a a a rough they call it 60 seconds, but if you go for two minutes, no one's shouting at you.

SPEAKER_06 25:48

Yeah. Whereas Neil's was a lot more formal. I was like, this is just a social, it's the business. Yeah, that that was like my networking group, mate. We didn't like no one, no one, everyone who hated who had PTSD from B and I came to our group. And I was just like, golf days, uh a piss up to France once a year, like those sort of things.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

I I definitely did mine for because I remember doing it for a year and then you get the renewals run route, and I hadn't got a single piece of business out of it. Yeah. I thought, and then I did renew and then all of a sudden it came. And then one, it's a bit like the snowball effect. Once they start to know you and then someone uses you, it it goes on and on. But the flip side is it's not just the business you can get, like if anybody in Chelter needs anybody really to be a tradesperson, accountant, and la, between me and Neil, we know that um so you add it's it's about adding value to your client. So when we're you know on on an appointment, kind of says, I'm thinking I need this or I need that, we can go, I can they need tax advice, I could put them right, you know, but obviously they need the plumbers or that we can do that. But taking up a high level, there's someone talked to me about wills, I go, I've got someone that can do that for you. So actually, it's just about adding value to people as well as you remember the money in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Yeah, it does pres funny enough, I had a message this morning of someone who used to work within the police and said um they need a a family lawyer, and the message literally said, You know, a lot of people, can you recommend one?

SPEAKER_06 27:01

Yeah, um, but I think you know that sort of positions you it's a is it I mean you think you're like you're a community you you're serving a community advocate, like you know, people from the community, you're like it's equivalent to like the human version of Yellow Pages now, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Someone comes to you and goes, Oh, and there's that guy, and that's like exactly I completely relate to that. Like it's only when you but it's only when you spend that commitment to it. You know what I mean? You you have to go every week to do it, you have to go on for years on end to the point where you get that, you don't just turn at once, do it, and then expect that that's gonna be the way it's gonna be. Because people like you probably had it, especially with your side to it. You might have new members join, and then someone said to them, Oh, they do let ins and sales, like and it's like a painter and decorator. Yeah, like it just like can you give me work next week? And you're like, Yeah, I don't know you, mate. I need to get to know you because you might be really shit, and I'm not gonna put you in any of my properties. And some would go off, and then some you'd have these amazing relationships with. I mean when I remember when we had this cleaning company that turned up and just a couple, just a couple and a one child, and they became end up becoming our main cleaners with them, and like to them, it was like three years down the line, it's like you know, access to a 750 property portfolio that they can they they're the first person we go to, but it was only because they were really good at what they did. Yeah, and so two so first is a net networking. Um, so when did you when did you start to grow the business in the form of staff? How did that go for you?

SPEAKER_04 28:21

Can I just be a real pain in the ass to go back to one more thing? Yeah, of course. You mentioned the word community, and that was that thing, and it get because me and the all both had children, got the kids at school, so we were like we built by being fully in the community. I don't know who's on a lab that point is I I think there's a lot of ages out there that um get sponsorship and being in the community completely confused. But it's don't get me wrong, yes, we put boards out advertising fates and stuff, but we actually went to the fates and oh you know, I'd run I did for a couple of years in a row, I was doing knowing the stocks and people come and throw sponges out yet. Yeah, so mate, everyone I went to school with was like brilliant as balldocker, let's go and get a smasher. Yeah, or oh look, there's an estate agent, we can go and do them. So that's just with the community. It's all uh there's that seem to be the big buzzword at the minute, but it's not just about chucking a bit of money, actually, your time is actually being there and I'd say it's more presence.

SPEAKER_06 29:10

Yeah like are you present in the community? Yeah, uh literally the podcast we had before was exactly the same thing. He he Rob was saying about he doesn't necessarily he get some of the awards that come through and say you've won this award, and he said, I'd rather use the money than that. And he's partnered with a local charity so for years, and they they have sick children on sort of end of life, and he then uh puts in like their wishes of going aboard and stuff like that, but he only acts with an in like a small charity that does that in the thing, and he's partnered with them for ages, and like trying to extract that out of him. He was like he was a bit embarrassed almost to say it because it's like it doesn't showcase it, but like 100% what you get because I see you see it a lot, and they're like, Oh, I'm just gonna sponsor this because it makes us there, but then I think people see past that now. Yeah, like you said to like that are you there? Like, do I actually meet the guys or is it just a logo on the wall stand that's sponsored?

SPEAKER_04 29:59

And even and it sounds a bit shit now because that guy's doing really good things for sick children, but well, you know, like for instance, we're the shirt sponsors of the Chumper Chieftain's ice hockey tech. Yeah, but Neil is at every single gay. Yeah, home and away. I mean he's even got the the logo, Fun de Pan is R. Well, if he was what he's got he's gonna he's gotta tell you. We sponsor my kid um one of my children's um football teams, but I am at every gay, you know, and you're on the But they're grass those are the grassroots sponsors, because really when you look at it, they are small.

SPEAKER_06 30:25

It's like you know, you could you could try and go big, but like those are the ones that actually mean something because it's like you know, the kids kids have got a brand new shirt. You know, have you ever been a child that's like got your handy down second, third season at stink? And that's like that is it.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

Yeah, it was it was a brand new team. So when we added it the reason I did it was it was a brand new team. Team and I wanted my kid to have a nice kit. But we've already listed a house, had valuations. And again, you're just so you're just being present, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_06 30:49

So and then so so um back to back to what I originally said around like the growth of that. So it's just you two set up, start going to networkings. Like what was it like in the say the first sort of five years of like growth? Uh did you have any did you have did it all go smooth? Did you think did you recruit some people and thought, fucking hell, what have we done here?

Networking That Actually Delivers

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we our old recruitment policy when we started, so it started out, it was just me and Matt, I was doing the vettings, he was doing the sales, and there was a lot more than just the network had gone on and other touting and um content and stuff like that. I think we were quite early adopters of the content marketing actually. Um but our recruitment strategy was do we like uh would we like to go for a beer with you? Yeah. And if you qualified for that, you joined a firm and then we'd work together. Sounds like our office was based on um Broomfield Road in Chelter. It's got the ship pub, which is like one of the most traditional, like still like proper pub based. Drinkers' pub, yeah. Drinker's pub in in Chelter. And it was like ten doors down the road. So he's yeah, we'd be down there every weekend, um, so we wanted people to work with us that we could go down there with. But obviously, and especially running a things business, we soon realised like frickin' heck, the um you know, we it was chaos. We were doing all these deals and there's no one to like sort it all out at the back end. Yeah. So then we changed to like, no, actually we need to start recruiting some people that um we've done.

SPEAKER_04 32:56

And we had to fire it as mate. And that was the bit that that's probably the one of the landmark moments where we thought, yeah, we can't do this anymore. I mean we don't we're not mates anymore, we don't we don't speak anymore, but we had to for this for to really to get we have been too trained, to keep a business going, we had to because just think of downright, so we had to kind of fire yeah, our best our best friend. Um at that point I think we probably realised that this we need to take this firing more seriously.

SPEAKER_06 33:20

And what and what what was this what was that next step then for that? Because you've how many people you got now for your year? Around 13. Yeah, so like you know, you've gone from that's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:30

Yeah, we I mean we went into the pandemic with I think six of us and we came out with seventeen. Yeah, well then we've kind of gone down a little bit as we can automate and do and not we haven't actually, it's just when people have left, we've kind of thought, do we need to replace or can we, you know, do do something else. I think we just looked at skill set over personality. We we realise, you know, we've done this profiles on ourselves and things like that. Yeah. And we realised we needed people at the other side of it. We needed people um who who could do you know, to be honest, if we interview them and I found them quite boring, then I thought actually they might be quite good, you know, because I I'm not gonna want to just spend all my time with you, but you can probably do do do the job.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah, we do I guess we realise we don't actually need another person to make some more sales, or we needed someone to straighten out this stuff because we were really good at sending stuff over that. So yeah, but no good at like tidying it all up also, and that's still the case today.

SPEAKER_06 34:20

Yeah. That's why we need our team.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

You realise what your skill sets were and the strength and what the shit we And I see what we've realized not not even necessarily early on, but we've certainly learned over the years is uh property managers, what we call them portfolio managers, yeah, are worth their weight in gold. 100%. And because we've used to do that, we've kind of so mate, he did it for a bit, and we'd always hiring cheaply is that is a false economy, and I guess it's easy to say that because if you're sitting there, you just started a business and you don't have thousands in the bank and you need to hire. So one thing that we got taught really early on with Stuck was was if you're doing, I don't know, a 30 grand hire, you don't need 30 grand in the bank, you need about nine because you should lose them after nine month after three months, sorry, if it's not working out. So that made it a lot more palatable than I used to to hire. Yeah. But we did, yeah, we we we hired people with no experience sometimes and we were like, you know, it's three key problems, but what we what we do now always our property managers we and we have to compete a bit with London wages because of where we're based anyway. But we always make sure we hire the highest calibre or of them. Um and then yeah, that that works everywhere. And what's the size of your portfolio now for that?

SPEAKER_01 35:25

So about 400 managed, yeah. And um with Sadio, we've got like basically because we've done a few acquisitions as well over time, these sort of like small portfolios. But we uh we've got a database of about six hundred or only landlords as well, so that's what we really like working. That's the like Yeah, that's that's yeah, working on now is to obviously convert more of those over. Um But that's and that's the way we see I mean growing a you know you growing a letting book organically is difficult, yeah. It's no uh there's no quick wins to that. Um so acquisitions are are the way forward really.

SPEAKER_06 35:59

But if you can do I think I think it's and there's a if you have different strategies for growth on that, I think there's another way of looking at it, but 100% like the acquisition route is is it a more of a quicker route to achieve that, isn't it? Yeah, holding them under the portfolio and getting that route, especially if you've got someone who's like just filled up the game and just thought, oh screw, I'm just gonna get rid of it. Um so your HMO network, so how did that come about? Yeah, well basically And how long's that been going for?

SPEAKER_01 36:30

So it's about two years old now, the network. Um but we've been doing HMO management well, yeah, since 2014 really when we kind of restarted in Chelmsford. We got into that because I needed some letting stock and a guy I knew had a load of HMOs that he self-managed and said, Oh, you can let my rooms um 50 quid a go or something, which you know you go near these days. Yeah, I remember that. Uh but you know, you used to take a bit of stock just to get some stock.

SPEAKER_06 36:57

You you do you multiply already? Yeah, it's four degree. I imagine by any runners like nah, it's the hardest thing ever, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah, yeah, like uh but that's how we got into it, and no one else in Chelmsford, like as soon as you mentioned the word HMO, no one would touch it.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Um it'd send people to us. Yeah, get landlords coming in and saying, Oh, so and so and you can almost see them at the door, like if you wanna say, hang out, there's your power. And we just lapped up, yeah, like yeah, fine.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

But then obviously, you know, we we heard of like the guild of property professionals, we're members of the FIA Federation of Independent Agents. And I just said to Matt one day, there's nothing like that out there for um specialist HMO managing agents. And the other reason behind it was if you look back to when we were all sales agents, like we were on the ground floor and Lettings was on the first floor when we worked at your move. And if a landlord walks in, he used to go, yeah, Lettings upstairs, mate, and then you might carry on doing your time and avoid. Yeah, nowadays you roll the red carpet.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Well, there's less and less investment going into buy to that, and there's more and more investment going into HMOs because it's bigger yields, etc. So if you look at it, that's like our vision is where we see you're now you're now starting to see agents wanting to get into it.

SPEAKER_06 38:06

And and what type of uh HMO network, like what type of uh HMOs would you say are in terms of it? Is it more private or is it more or professional? Professional, yeah, because I know there's a different mixture depending on where you're in the country. Yeah, so they're high-end, like professional uh and are they I know obviously like they are they have you got a s a type of one that you go for? Is it like you know, in your area the stock commands are five bed, a six bed, a seven bed?

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah, it tends to be five or six bedrooms. Six is really like the sweet spot. Um and then you are we are starting to see people building uh like ten bedrooms and all sorts now, so and it's moving even more down like this whole co-living route and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 38:48

So uh so ought to go about 30 in the network? Uh yeah, we've got 31 agents in the network. Starting down like Cornwall, going up to Liverpool, well, that kind of way. You've got so we've got some, we don't need student lets in our agents, but we've got some that are massive on student lets. You've got some that bought a huge uh, you know, they'll do about 15 beds, big HMO, so there's a there's a nice widespread throughout it. But it's um it's kind of like buy invitation, they have to, you know, we we do scrutinize the members, and not everyone can become a member.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Um we we want to make sure that the the calibers right calibre, yeah, good ways in there, you like yeah, it's all about because still to this day, like you mentioned the word HMO, some people will go, oh my god, it must be a dive. So it's about like professionalising the industry really and having like quality, quality brands in there managing things properly.

SPEAKER_06 39:33

Yeah, I remember the I think the one I had was like an 18-bed. Yeah, it was a big, it was like an old care home that ill converted and university decided about two months before he his uh like licence with the university agreement. Yeah, two months before they went actually we don't want it because we're building more, and he was like stuck with his 18-bed unit that he'd bought and just gave them to university, so he was none the wiser, thinking ice is easy money, and all of a sudden it was like in two months' time, you're gonna have no one in there, and he gave it to me. And the university, I'll be honest, I hadn't really looked after it, so like it was quite a rude awakening because they had done the repairs on it, and obviously they've repairing it, they're like, Fuck it, we'll just budget. Yeah, so like went in there and we got some team in there, and they were like, I was like, it's gonna cost you a wedge. I'm gonna have no income and I've got power, you're like, Welcome to the 18 bed.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Yeah, I used to do we would do like a presentation on it, they'd have like Rigsby from Rising Damp on uh on on there as like one of the slides. It's nothing like that nowadays, and I'm sure there are still well funny enough, when we first worked in Bishop Storford, the first HMO we ever came across, we probably didn't sort of realise that's what it was at the time, but um had a big square lounge and someone had just literally put it into quarters, you had to walk through someone's bedroom to get to the next bedroom. So that's what that's why now it's all licensed. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot more regulated.

Hiring Lessons And Operations

SPEAKER_06 40:48

So bad. You think now you think, how the hell? How did a guy you laugh at it now, but reading it was terrible. I had one guy, it's like it's the Italian guy. I went I remember when I took over the agency uh letters side. I remember he'd he had 11, he asked me to private elect uh some space in this house. I went there, it was like a three-bedroom traditional house. He had 11 people in there. And he had this like he had this one bedroom, he had he was like, it's got an ensuite. I went there, it was a toilet, just in the bedroom, but he was uh I was like, where's the ensuite? He was like, that's there. I was like, No, that's a toilet, mate. He's like, Yeah, but they can go to the toilet, it's an ensuite. I was like, no, it's not. Like I was like, literally the number two next to your partner in bed. I was like, that's not an ensuite. And then I came out, I said, no, we're not doing this anymore. And he was like, Well, you've dealt with us for years, like not under IC.

SPEAKER_04 41:30

So, like, yeah, some bad, bad eggs out there. Someone ran out of summer house and they've gone, but showing me the reason they've gone, I'll show you that by the annex and you go, This is a summer house. Yeah, and they say, Oh shit. Yeah, no, it basically was, so yeah. But nowadays, the HMOs, they're more like like apart hotels, you know, there's some of them they've got eight the bottom suit, some of kitchenettes in, they're they're nice.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah, it's a bit like you know, you come across a bite to let that you don't really want to deal with, so you yeah, you turn that away because it's not being maintained, but it's a bit like people go, I don't want to deal with an HMO because they're all shitholes. Well, then don't deal with the shitholes. They don't deal with the decent, which is what we do, you know, we deal with by the nice brand new build.

SPEAKER_06 42:05

And especially where you said like London commuter belt travelling in and out, like that's a nice spot. Yeah, and we I know we've got quite a couple of our guys over that way that we've got over, you know, part of our part of our team that are actually based down that way. Yeah, yeah. Um so I'm conscious because I could talk to you for hours. Um I wanted to get onto your um sort of network for your partner agents as well. Because like before, you know, the rise of EXP and everyone talks about it, I obviously knew you guys back in we only had this conversation what seven years ago, so eight years ago. Uh there's a guy from my neck of the woods that came under your umbrella. So probably way before it all came this big partner agency, everyone talks about it now. So again, you were quite early adopters to that process, weren't you really? We meant everything early, was that? Yeah, so everyone's fine. Everyone followed you, yeah. Every you you follow Matt and Matt follow everyone else follows Matt, yeah. Yeah. So so uh give us sort of a background of that for anyone listening out there, what what does that look like for you guys?

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Yeah, so we yeah, I mean, look, we we got that very wrong to start with. Uh not so much actually with um the chat we kind of both know. Um that that went well and then he went off and did his own thing under his own brand. Um but I mean we we recruited quite a number of agents at one point and did basically no vetting on them. Check like we knew they were AJ's. But um yeah, we didn't check if they had any money behind them if they knew how to run a business and and all that kind of stuff. So we did literally give them access to a right move account and actually we did give them support, didn't we? I had them in on training and all that, but you can only train people who want to be trained, of course. Yeah. Um and so yeah, so we've kind of revamped that now, and we're we're down to um only two at the minute, to be honest. But we we're kind of more of a franchise model without having to spend 20 grand on a franchise and having a certain square footage of uh office space and that kind of thing. But um yeah, we're very kind of like brand centric with a personal brand alongside it, rather than just building a personal brand in an area and no one knowing that you're sort of affiliated to the the person in the next town.

SPEAKER_04 44:07

Um we're we're we're very keen to create business owners and again for me in agency that does mean having a leg, but so I don't think ours was I don't think we've ever been massively fashionable on that because we're banged on about lettings a lot. Yeah. Um when it was kind of the you know, the quick win is oh earn a hundred grand, right? That's always the headline thing, you know, come do some how it's going cost. Yeah, exactly. Seventy percent uh one hour a week. Yeah, yeah, precisely a few Instagram posts and and and you're a white. So we've always gone on about lettings and we still maintain that agents should build a lettings book. Um, not just for the residual income, but that's actually something you can sell. You're not gonna sell a sales business for for for much money. Um so we yeah, so we try and create business owners as opposed to self-employed agents. I my feeling is if you're a simply self-employed agent, you have a job, it's just you has got to pay the bills, you know. And they wrong as as some of these models have have grown, you'll get four or five agents in the similar areas they can collaborate with each other and help each other, which is great. Um yeah, if you if you just want to buy a right move, you know, pay for um free right move and do your own thing, that's not really what we want. We want to kind of as a we're very focused on brand, as Neil says, you can have your picture on the board if you want. Um but we we believe that in England people still buy brands um and and and that work.

SPEAKER_06 45:23

Um because you guys only went through um almost like a rebrand, fresh rebrand, really, wasn't it? The last all three years. Like what made you what made you decide? I know obviously people just go for a rebrand, but like you didn't just you went for a proper change in that. Yeah, the way you the way you looked at it and the and the vibrant vibrancy of it compared to maybe the previous one. What made like were you scared of doing that? Like changing it up, what made you go with a different sort of style? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

We invested a lot in that, and that that was really because we wanted to build a proper brand that um yeah, that would attract people to want to work with it, both clients as in you know, clients obviously agency and other agents that kind of want to work with me. Um and yeah, it kind of we never had any like defined values before, did we? And things like that. We never had like a proper brand statement, values, proper brand guy. What does it actually mean? Hard and soul the brand. Yeah, just a logo.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And also we just felt it didn't reflect us. So we're we're fairly forward thinking, you know, we'd and when we'd go out networking, for instance, we the way we talk about agency was a way that people hadn't heard or didn't expect estate agents to talk about it. So so I'm a big believer in it, you know, um being a part of people's life stories. Houses don't really interest me, but people interest me. Houses are the vehicle for fair life story. And I talked about that, and people kind of say, like, your brand's quite dated. Why you talk? And so it doesn't really narry up, see that. So yeah, so we wanted to do something new, and we I mean we used um uh property stream twenty twenty two, bro. When had a meeting with them in in Manchester, and they came out with some I mean I'll be completely honest, it it it came out because we thought we had a meeting at nine o'clock in the morning, so we got there the night before. Turn out the meeting was at twelve, so we got pissed. So we turned up there to the meeting at half past twelve, with him in particular hanging out of his ass. It's true bad. Um and then so the colour so we had to make our apologies, and then the conversation got onto beer and then onto craft beer. So all of a sudden the vision board was made up you know, like craft beers, yeah, bright coloured things. And we were like, God yeah, and so that's we went down that rabbit hole, and again they were like, So they can't be three, and you can have this one or this one or this one, because you've got three core colours, and and I said, Well, why can't why's it got to be well? Why can't we have all three? So we you know, if you drive through Chelmsed, you will see three different coloured boards up, but they're all very clearly Charles David, Charles David Casson. And what that can mean is if you've got a for sale board up, people drive past it for three weeks and it just blows into the background, they don't notice it anymore. Once you sell it, it becomes a different colour board, the board pops back out again. Yeah. Some of that was more luck than than than kind of judgment, but yeah, we just wanted the brand to reflect the way we felt about AIDS, the way we worked, um, and with the the idea, so we we think it works in big cities as well. So for instance, we've got a couple of really successful partners over in northwest London, and the brand works there. For for me, the brand it works in the cities, um, because there's got effort.

Growing Lettings And Acquisitions

SPEAKER_06 48:08

But what's a nice approach to it is you although obviously the story is quite an interesting story to get to it, but like the creativity that came off the back of it, it wasn't like you sat in there and you just said, right, um want to rebrand, uh, what do you want? Um house on it, um, yeah. Uh to just do a little bit of the similar colour, um, to make it a little bit fresher, like the you really pulled in from I can for what you're saying there, it was like, what does it actually mean to work with us and be a part of race? Because then that only then gets pulled into the playfulness of it with it, you know what I mean? Like, how does a board look like in this rather than just being uh just gonna revamp a version of it?

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Well that was that was why before they even did any design, anything like that, before we had any visuals of it, it was all about like, yeah, what does this brand stand for? What are the values? What do we actually stand for?

SPEAKER_06 48:56

And sorry to butt you on now, because it I want to pull actually onto that. You've got your like um networking dinner you do, yeah, and obviously you've got your consultancy side to it. So like you going through that process and understanding that, what do you what do you feel like the agencies you speak to maybe might be struggling or might be in a bit of a loss? Do you feel like they that's one of the main things they need to work on?

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Well, I think that's a I think that's definitely something every business should do because it's quite hard, especially if you're gonna like how you're meant to bring stuff. I mean, our whole recruitment process centres around what they call values. Yeah. How do you bring people into your business if you don't actually know what you sense or a dead like what you're about? Um asses. Yeah. But if you go back to recruiting the people that you like, yeah, probably than the people that fit into the business. So yeah, I think that's an exercise like everyone and probably any business kind of needs to do. Um but it's just yeah, it it costs money and people kind of think a lot of people still think a brand is a logo. Yeah. And it it's got a lot more behind it, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_06 49:58

I had someone who was like trying to do one, he didn't he won't mind me talking about he's trying to do one like PowerPoint and every day. And I said to them, mate, don't you put a design up when I was in a coaching session? I was like, Can I be counting? Can I be honest? He was like, I was like, No. Like I put you in someone and he's an expert and he's really good, but like, and he came back and said, I'm so glad. He said, No, I'll look back at why I produce and what the guy produced. Like, why was I thinking of putting this splash art with on the front of it? I was like, I don't know, mate, that's the reason why when I told you like I had to break and say, No, stop in there.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

Um brand and branding, yeah, uh different uh for exactly, but again, and also the fact you care isn't a USP. So again, you know, a lot of people struggle to articulate why they're doing the jobs, yeah. They're bandaging, and also, you know, take me down to Simon Sydney, Rebel, your kids aren't necessarily your why, they're your reason, you know. So, and then and that and that's a different interest. I saw one guy post in LinkedIn with his Rolex was his why, and I thought, you cool soul. But you've you've got to kind of so just saying I'm different because I care, that's what every agent's saying people's different rooms. You've really got to try and work on it.

SPEAKER_06 50:57

It's it's a hand it's a hard one because like I was only sending on the workshop last week and we had a workshop about their pitch, and I was sending a pitch like uh experienced team. Yeah. Like you might think you've got an experienced team, but unless you're articulating in a particular way, but you hear it from another agency because everyone's got an experienced team. You know, after about a year, everyone can say they're experienced. So like we're experienced, we're experienced, like we care, like trust, yeah. Like we one of our workshops we did about trust, and someone says, I want I want uh trust as my core value. It's like Mark says, like, what it's a given, like what don't you're not gonna be a trusting agent. Like people don't just do business with someone who says work with us because like you know, you're not gonna trust us. It's just a normal thing that you expect. So it's good it's good that you mentioned it because it like you said, branding brand is two separate things, and it comes back to recruitment, so it's like nice to hear that you've you've gone down that route. So um your agency sort of dinners uh you sort of mentioned it before you spoke to me about uh when's that next one coming up? Have you decided what that date is or how does that sort of work for you?

SPEAKER_04 52:02

So they're always said in advance, so we me and you actually have to pre-book the hotel and guarantee numbers for the entire year. So uh you know, I'll put this out on LinkedIn before. Last year it cost us£3,000 because we have to we book a minimum of£20 people. So if we get if we've got£22, we probably break even maybe me and him eat eat for free. I've had we've had one where there was 12 people, so I've paid for eight, well we've paid sorry for eight people's dinners. Yeah. But the next one's 21st of August. Uh this year every other month, they're always the third or Thursday of the month.

SPEAKER_06 52:32

So it'll be October, yeah, because I'd probably depend on how when this comes out, it'd be nice for maybe all this on the podcast for you to direct people to it so you can come on to it.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Right, yeah, and that's like it's not a m I can assure you it's not a money, mate, because I said we've lost money on it. But it is just about giving agents a space to like decompress, basically. Yeah, discuss challenges and just chat. There's no there's no agenda behind it, no one's selling it. I mean, literally we banned suppliers so that no one's sold to.

SPEAKER_06 53:01

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I can and I can understand that because I think especially if you know if you think about your you two as your journey and you're going back to when you started uh and then like imagine if that was around for that period of time, just to sit down and it's baby sit to someone who's been down that joke, like you versus like you meeting you full two years later and you go, Don't don't fucking recruit your best mate. Yeah, don't be. I think I recruit my best mate, nah. Yeah, I'll tell you about why. And or like I'm looking at doing my branding. But those are the sort of things that those are the unwritten or un they're the missed conversations that people sometimes don't associate. That if you think everything's just on virtual, you're reading a post of what I've read. Yeah, but it's a small chat between it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 53:39

Running a business is lonely, you know. Uh and I always say, even you know, the the bad times, but you can't high-five yourself. You if you're having a good time, kind of turn around and who not there, yeah, who's there to support? So it's just a it's it's a chance for them to come together. You always for some reason think you're the only person having that problem. So, you know, but if you're you know sitting there, go, I've got to see someone that's goes, Oh, I've I've got that at the minute, or we'll be through that. And it's really you know, it's an honest room as well. So if people are having a shit month, they'll say, rather than the minute they go to my agents go, how's the things? Oh, yeah, smashing it, everything's great. People will say, I've had a really bad mum, but and then people try and unpack that and help them and work for what they can do about it.

HMO Specialism And National Network

SPEAKER_06 54:15

It's it's interesting because I remember having a like a refocus session at the beginning of the year, and I think a couple of uh people in like our accelerator programme had so we're just rekindling and they come to the refocus session, and like everyone was a bit silent, and some of them were struggling, and one of them, the do you know, Chris, he's like, just found it tough. Yeah, just found it fucking tough. And then someone else was like, Do you know what? Glad you said that, mate, because I found it tough as well. And it's just like that's the bit where everyone else, it's easy, like you said, the Rolex, we're smashing it, like no one goes on Nick Team going, just let you know everyone I'm doing really shit. Because like they you you your concern is like the competitor's gonna just bash the shit at me and say, like, you know, he's going down a pan. Yeah, so just have that open space where someone just says, you know what, yeah, I am struggling this month, like how you find it. And then, like you said, the month later, when markets move a little bit and you come back to how you getting on, oh it's always better, isn't it? To just be involved in that. So it's nice, nice to have that. I mean, I was interested in coming on, but you know, unless I go back, I tell you myself not allowed. Um, I've got I've I can literally keep talking with you. So I've got a couple of more minutes while I get kicked off this. Um so where um one question back to you. So where do you see like the future of what you perceive as agency maybe in the next five, ten years? Where do you feel where do you feel from your experience of all the things you've done and all maybe the the different uh slice of the pie? Where do you feel like that if an agent's listening and they're thinking, oh I'm a bit over crossroads, I know there's like AI, tech, marketing, people, uh self-employed, that's what site, where do you feel like people in your experience should maybe you should be going like maybe you should be focusing on this a little bit more?

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Well, I think um there's no doubt AI is I was gonna say coming, but it's here, isn't it? And it's only gonna get better. So I think people have got to take that seriously. One thing I will say is I I don't believe that this business will ever be uh a complete tech business. And do f I I think you've got to have people and tech, and the tech should be used to speed up the people or allow those people to deal with more business. But it yeah, we've had the online agents and every one of them has failed, and they've failed for a reason because it's an emotional transaction and so you need the people. But what those people do need is the tools behind them to enable them to move faster and and do more business. Um so I've I think it's I think we're gonna see AI supporting the people if people learn how to use.

SPEAKER_06 56:40

I think like you said, like you know, you said you went into Covid with six, didn't you? And you expanded to eleven. And like quite honestly, you said, like, as people have decided that it's not your it's not the fit for them or they'd decide to move on to new pastures, you've assessed it and gone, not run around going, oh shit, need another person to put a slot you've gone. Could we fit that with marketing automation, like a different process change? Yeah. So that means that everyone else probably gets a bit a little bit more of the pie, you know, when they come to earn more money, there's a bit more than just passing out the people who sit there.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

It's easy to just go solve that problem, recruit someone else. But it's like just ask the question, yeah, do I actually need someone else, or could we do this another way and then everyone else benefits from that?

SPEAKER_04 57:21

I don't think I I I think well his this because I again I I'll still maintain that letting it's weird because people feel his letting's head, and I've mentioned about it. I also think lettings businesses are always gonna be there and always gonna be valuable. I actually think the tech and the AI could damage fees on sales a lot all the lettings. But I think um personal relationships are gonna become all so five years, ten years a hundred percent. My belief is we'll be so used to speaking to AI in everything we do, so booking um buying anything online, booking restaurants, you're not gonna get to speak to people. So actually having somebody come and sit in your living room, so it'd be a bit weird if they started touching you, but they you know that they're real and they're there. I think people value that so much more and actually will pay more for that. So you can almost have everything will be but if you actually want someone with Neil's experience, Mr. Landor, to sit in your living room in the last 15, 16, 20, that that that's bigger money. Um so I'd be looking at who I hire, um, and yes, you want to hire school, but I'd be hiring on empathy, um, and I'd be hiring on on their personal attributes because I think when you're you know, let's let's be honest, people sell houses because of divorces and because of deaths. They want someone who can understand that, not just put them into an automated process because an automated process is is got to go on a show. It's been done quickly now, you know. Like we do it, you know, we we can have this automated thing so um when you exchange contracts, it'll send out an email. Congratulations, I'll make sure I stop for ones when it's a a probate sale or a divorce because someone's selling their mum's house, it's not congratulations, it it's bittersweet. Um, and actually I think having humans that understand that will be really valuable. So I would be I I think your valuers or whatever you want to call them, the people in people's living rooms need to be upskilled um in emotional intelligence as much as the technical ability.

SPEAKER_06 59:10

And that's actually quite a complex way to like it's good, great, but I think as as we're moving with technology, everyone's becoming less emotional intelligent, aren't they? So if you can find those people, that like you know, like you said, like goes back to your what you believe in your community, presence, you know what I mean? What you believe in why you do networking, like you can see it, what you're trying to achieve within that. It's like you actually connect with someone, then it's just being the hi on the value, I'm gonna value how see it loud, blah blah blah. So I actually like I want to know who you are and why you exist and why why are we going for this transaction over the next sort of six months?

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:43

Um hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 59:44

And even on that, something we do really simple that uh if agents want to takeaway. So if I go and value someone's property, I would if we list it, the team will then go and visit the property. Because A, they know what they're selling, but B, the owner knows who they are because I'm not gonna be phoning them making the viewings, and I don't I don't lie and I I tell people you won't probably speak to me that much again. I'm always about, you care about what you've got my mobile number, but you know, this is you know, Jordan and Federica, for instance, they're going to give you a day-to-day base, they're gonna come and visit you. Most other agencies, especially the corporates, you know, they'll send the value around, sign an e froze out, and you'll never hear from them again. So actually, if you can introduce a seller to your sales team, that goes a long way for that kind of trust.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:22

I'll I'll give you a very simple example. It's well-known agency in my area. I went to them to sell my partner's flat, and uh it's got a private garden, two-bedroom, it's the first floor. And uh been on the market, been chasing them saying about it, said, Oh, did Tim deal with it? And uh got a call from one of the girls for feedback and said, like, they liked it, but they want a place with a garden. And I was like, Okay, it's on the description, it's got pictures on the description in that flyer. And he was like, She was like, Where was it? I was like, like, it's the left hand side, you go down the back bit. She was like, I did wonder what that garden was at the back and who it was owned to. It's like, yeah, like the path leading down the back of it. And you think, you think from a I mean I took the brunt of that, my partner didn't know anything much about that, but I was just thinking, like, that's the level of like empathy, understanding, visiting the property. And it was like, I was like, oh, get that person backed in, viewed back what? So they're gonna come back and just view the garden, right? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:15

And and the other thing is for the future, Asians like to moan about how long how slow the conveyancing process is, but if that ever gets changed, a lot of agents are fucked. Because a lot of Asians justify their fee on the basis that they deal with all the sales progression. Yeah. So if that suddenly becomes digitised and could be done in four weeks, you need another reason to justify your fee. So I would have I'd have half an eye on that.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:35

I think, Matt, it comes back to what you said originally, like the branding versus brand. You know what I mean? Emotional empathy, like the community side to it, like um systems and processes, repling out whether you need that person, that person earn wants more money, your culture. And I think like unless you've got that shit sorted out, like AI won't work. You know what I mean? Like you won't recruit the right people, people won't understand why you're different to another agent down the road. Uh so you're right in I think like as a wrap-up, I think you're right in saying like you really need to probably establish like your your true heart on side of your business, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:09

Yeah, definitely. And I think just as a final point, the like the model, the state agency has been the same, the actual business model has been the same for the last 20 years, probably the same for the next 20 years. We're selling houses, we're renting them, managing HMOs, property management. It's just the way we operate the business might become slightly different with the tech and the AI and everything else, but the the actual business model doesn't change. So, like, do you know what I mean? It's you you don't need to try and like reinvent the wheel, just keep doing things very well, giving great customer service and showing emotional empathy, and then find these tools that can make it easier or deliver a better service to your customers.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:49

That's perfect. Right. Thank you very much for coming in. It's an hour long that one. Sorry, and that's a good one. That was a really good one. A bit on the nose there. Yeah, I appreciate your time. Um, we'll put a link in the show notes for when we relaunch this about your next up-and-coming dinner. Thank you. And a part of the HMO network as well, and any bits and pieces on that. But yeah, I really appreciate your time, guys. I appreciate it. Thank you for having us, man. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

Thanks for listening to this Estate Agency X podcast. Can you make sure that you're actually subscribed to this podcast channel if you liked the content? Uh, it helps us massively to get better guests, and it just helps us generally. So you might think you're subscribed, but just have a double check, whatever your um podcast platform of preference is, that you're actually subscribed, and then that way we can continue to grow the channel and get better and better guests for you.