Why Gut-Feel Recruitment Is Costing You Growth with Josh Rayner

Hiring on gut instinct is costing estate agents time, money, and growth.
In this episode of The Estate Agency X Podcast, Josh Rayner — Founder of Rayner Personnel and Inside Talent, shares how a culture-first, AI-powered approach to recruitment helps agencies hire people who perform, stay and scale.

Discover how to move from desperate hiring to a system built on planning, profiling, and psychometrics. Josh explains how to define a real culture that candidates can feel, not wallpaper values that mean nothing in the branch.

You’ll learn how to use AI tools and DISC-style assessments to shortlist the right people, build progression paths that retain talent, and future-proof recruitment as new regulations raise the cost of bad hires.

🎧 Listen now to turn your recruitment from a fire drill into a true competitive edge.

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This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Meet Josh Rayner And The Mission

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Estate Agency X. Today I'm talking to Josh Rayner. If anyone has been living under a stone for the last 20 years and doesn't know who Josh is, Josh is the king of recruitment in a state agency. Anything that you can think of around that whole sector, Josh knows it. So today we talk about how things have changed over the last 20 years, how technology is helping people find the right candidates, and what employers should and shouldn't be doing to make sure that they can attract and retain their best people.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

State enterity, the UK's number one estate entity podcast discussing the future of a state entity, entrepreneurship and business.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Right. Josh, thanks for coming in. For anyone who for some reason hasn't come across you in the past, can you just give us a quick background on yourself? How long you've been in the industry, what you do, all of that sort of stuff, please.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Sorry, Mark, first of all, thanks for having me. Real privilege to be here. So Josh Rayner been in the industry for 21 years this year. So definitely an uphill paper round. Purely in recruitment, that's all I've ever done since leaving school. So I placed over 5,000 people from Julian Eggs up to CEOs. And Rainer Personnel is my core business. We've got 24 franchisees up in the other country that look after sales, lettings, land new homes, financial services, and proptec. And I've recently just formed a business called Insight Talent, which is an AI recruitment platform to assist with the more junior roles.

Culture Over CVs

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Awesome. Okay, so I want to try to dig into a lot of your knowledge about recruitment because obviously working with massive brands who are working with some of the smaller brands, all the different roles, all the things you've seen go well, all the things you've seen go bad, like you know, hopefully we can unpack some stuff for people that's really used to them. Um in a previous life, I did recruitment um back in the late 90s. Um and at the time it was like a dot-com, and you just sort of people were hiring just anyone they could sort of get their hands on. And so I guess like if I think about um when I moved into a state agency at the time Spicer well the Spicer Heart now, Spicer. We're going through a big expansion and I feel like they was just trying to get uh bodies on seats at the time. So do you over the years have you seen them much of a shift from just get me somebody to I I don't know, something based more around uh not just experience, but how do how are companies now trying to make sure that they find people that actually fit within their organisation?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Yeah, definitely the market's hugely changed, and I remember them spice my cold days. Um and they sometimes they haven't changed in some businesses, but culture for me is is the big word. Um people don't just take a job because they need to. We all know that the industry doesn't pay a particularly high basic salary. I think we we pay£685 more than minimum wage is a basic. So we're not an industry people join for a basic salary, it's very much a career industry. Um, and culture for me is is a massive one. We can change lives by putting people into the right jobs, but you also can break lives by putting them in the wrong culture and they don't work out. So for me, it's about companies that really embrace the individual and give them that freedom and flexibility. Um, I think then days, of course, KPIs still exist, but then days of you've got to have 10 calls before 10 and you've got to hit the phone a hundred times a day, phone bashing, they don't really exist as much anymore. And if you even look at the Foxes culture, which is arguably a machine and one of the best cultures out there, they're even flexing a little bit since COVID with a little bit more hybrid working, or they're doing they're changing their KPIs. So again, that phone basher bum on a seat is a bit more advanced than it than it ever has been.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah, that's interesting. So so I I've not really seen much uh other than the self-employed model of the hybrid working.

Hybrid Work And Role Design

SPEAKER_01 4:04

So, how what are you seeing with that? So, again, it's horses for courses and different companies are doing different things, but it might be there's a little bit more flexibility. So, for example, property management and sales progresses, they're doing three days in the office and two days from home. They don't need to be in the office, um, they can get more stuff done. That role is quite intense and there's a lot of phone calls. Sometimes they get distracted in the office and they don't really need to be there physically. Um, so we've seen them roles be a little bit more hybrid. You've obviously seen the rise of Vuber. So again, completely self-employed people that go out and turn the key and share properties um to the clients. Um obviously your negotiators and your value is there, obviously you need to be out and about more times or next in the office, but value is a wing the sofa. So there's a little a lot more flexibility rather than right, you've got to do five hours a day in the office. There's a lot more fluid.

Defining Real Culture And Progression

SPEAKER_02 4:52

And how do you how does how does a recruitment company try to get to understand that culture then? Like, you know, if you're I don't know, like you work with all levels of estate agencies, right? Yeah. Small independents right through to um how if I'm uh if I'm a small independent, I mean, first of all, do you meet lots of companies that don't have a culture and don't really aren't able to explain that side of things to you? And the second part of the question is if they have got it, how do you try to make sure that you find matches for it?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, absolutely. So there's lots of businesses that are um partner-owned, if that makes sense. There's two people in their business that are equal partners and they tell them they've got great values, um, they've got a really winning culture, but then you question that and you deep dive into that, and it's just wallpaper. Um, we we look after our customers, great, everyone else does. We we look after our people, great, everybody else does, right? Elaborate a little bit more. As opposed to what? We're not looking after your fucking people. Exactly. So there's a lot of people that have got a lot of BS um that pretend they've got a culture and they haven't. So every time we take a job, we do a job discovery with our client to understand exactly what the USPs are, why they're different, why they could attract good people, and ultimately we're looking for um companies that people can build a career with. Because if you ask people what's important to them, of course money comes up there because we all need to eat and live. Um but the second bit is about progression. So again, if this person joins you as a sales or letting's egg, in the next five years, where could they progress to? And if it's still going to be a sales or letting's egg in five years' time, clearly they're not a company that we want to help because the people we put in will just be given our money back as a ring bank because they just won't they won't stay. So it's identifying the right company, understanding the business owners if it's a small business or if it's a PLC, understanding what their global um culture is to really understand the kind of person that will fit within that business.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

And as a recruiter, like being on the employer side, you know, you can imagine like you you just think of it all from your own point of view, don't you? Like, you know, I want to find somebody who's really good. I don't want to pay, you know, loads of money for it and blah blah blah blah blah. You just think of all of that side of things. But I'm just I'm just trying to imagine it from a recruiter's point of view. What frustrates you about employers?

Desperate Hiring And Attrition Traps

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Where do they mess it up? I think a lot of people, when you're hiring, it doesn't matter what business you're in, you only hire when you've got a vacancy, right? So we desperate hire. And and that tends to be someone's walked out, someone's gone on maternity leave, there's been a change in circumstances, you overrun with the phones and you need to get somebody else involved involved. And you've really got a two to three week window to really find somebody. And it's like going shopping when you're hungry, right? You you go to Tesco's, you chuck all the rubbish in your in your uh in your basket, and you get to the end you go, actually, I can't even cook a meal out of this. Um, so you buy the wrong things, and I think you hire the wrong people when you're in a desperate hurry. Um, so that really annoys me when you actually took the time and future plan what you're going to do. I appreciate you can't work out in December I'm gonna need four people, in August I'm gonna need one or two. But you always have the time with hire, yeah. It's better to have a hole than an arsehole. Exactly that. And we always always need a subspension of people, and because we never have that or never speak to people, it's always right, we need somebody now, let's get cracking. So that really frustrates a recruiter. Um, because we all know that you can have churn. We have a 48% attrition rate in our industry. That means you're always gonna need people every single year. Yeah, uh, and what also frustrates me is that agents are very good as fleet agents. They can write great job descriptions, sorry, not job descriptions, great property uh descriptions. They can't write great job descriptions, right? That's why we're a professional in in uh in job in the job market and they're professionals in in the state agency and lettings. So again, given it to somebody that understands the industry, 21 years of knowledge, black book, contacts, market share analysis, that's it, that's the value, just like why wouldn't consumers have their own house because, well, I'm not gonna sell my own house because that's not my yeah, absolutely.

Workforce Planning For Lean Teams

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Um okay, that's interesting. So if you think about like big corporations, global corporations, you know, they have like you know, permanent HR departments that are stuffed to the to the lines with it, like, you know, they're pretty much always thinking about recruitment, right? Because of what you just said, like there's always going to be an attrition in your company. Whereas what what you're saying there, I guess it's like, you know, smaller businesses, like they're waiting to have an actual bullet hole shot in them before they're trying to figure out like you know how to solve it. So but how do they how can they start to think about that, solving that problem if um you know if they haven't actually got a vacancy, then how can they start to solve it?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

It's mapping out exactly what the fundamental parts of that business is. We all know you need to list houses, right? Because if you have a stock, you're not gonna be able to sell as a big thing, same with lettings. You also need people that are gonna be able to register applicants. There's lots of AI stuff that can do lots of that, and I've seen lots of technology, including what the amazing stuff you're doing. Um, but AI is not caught up yet, you're not gonna win the sofa um on a listing yet. So think around the core people you need in your business to function. Um and I appreciate the times have been difficult in the last five, ten years, but you're still gonna need a valuer. You're still gonna need a really good sales or lessings egg. Yes, AI is kicking in, so you won't necessarily need the five-pound jobs and the ad-minute jobs as much anymore. Hopefully the AI stuff will catch up, but you're gonna need really quality, experienced people. And looking on a blank piece of paper, what do we need to be the best operation locally and how are we gonna win against our competitors? And it's just working out what you need and and taking a view that look, you're not gonna keep everybody, you might be the best employer ever, ever, but you'll have superstars in there that guess what? They want to leave, they want to start their own businesses. You might have people that unfortunately have a deaf in a family, have to move far and wide to go and look after them. So you can't predict the future. So that I would work out exactly the core jobs you need in your the roles you need to be looked after in your business and make sure you've got a bit of a plan going forward in the future around right, if the market doesn't work out in the next 12 months, where am I going to get another superstar from? What does that look like? Interview people, even if they haven't got a job, because you're always looking to expand. I always was told a company that's never recruiting is a company that's never growing.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

And I totally believe in that because if you're not forward-thinking, you're not going forward, you're going backwards.

Tech, Video, And Psychometrics

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Uh, how how do you see the best companies cope with that from a cash flow perspective? You know, like I don't know, uh a hire might cost them whatever it is, thousands of pounds in recruitment fees. Obviously, you know, I'm sure you can tell us like, you know, why that's good value for money, but nevertheless, like if they hadn't planned for it, then I guess like it all starts to get get a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Especially when things have been tight, right? And um cash is is key, we all know that. Um so you can never plan for it, let's be honest. You then you can make an idea of how when you're gonna take somebody, but you don't know if that's gonna be today, tomorrow, next month. But you can put a bit of money aside and go, do you know what? Actually, recruitment is that whole time versus money. I can go and do it myself, but one, I'm not an expert in that field. Two, it takes about 30 to 40 hours to find your hire yourself. What can you do that's more valuable in the 30 to 40 hours? List in 30 to 40 hours, list more houses, sell more houses, generate more income in your business that you're you're good at. Um so it's that kind of I'd rather give it to an expert that knows industry than go out and headhunt people, because that's not my sector or my expertise and pay for that service, knowing that I put a bit aside every single month to make sure that if I do have a casualty, which I know I'm gonna have, I've got enough money in the in the in the coffers to be able to afford that. And I've got an expert that knows it. Lots of people have got internal recruitment teams as well. Um, and state agency recruitment, I reckon, is one of the hardest recruitment sectors to get into. There's lots of churn, it's unregulated. You deal with everybody from uh a junior up to a CEO and everybody in between. It's hard. Um, and I think lots of internal recruitment teams are not even experiencing property. They come from a different sector, whether that be retail, they just don't get the sector.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

And they haven't got the contacts to go after, or the data, or the or the tech to be able to reach the people as well.

Profiling Roles, Not Just People

SPEAKER_02 12:43

You do find that a lot in this sector, actually, don't you? You know, like you know, 20 odd years, you say you've been owning it you know, in in this and sim, you know, similar for myself, maybe even a little bit longer. And you see people come with ideas from other sectors, and you just it's like it's like they're an alien. Do you know what I mean? It's like you what the fuck are you talking about? Like I saw an advert the other day on Facebook for something to do with trying to win listings in a state agency. And it was clearly some company that never had anything to do with a state agency. It was just like this ad is just never gonna land with anybody because uh I I don't even understand the words that you're using. Do you know what I mean? Um, so you must have seen a lot of change with technology then, I guess, over that period of time as well. Going from, you know, in the in the book that I just wrote about AI, I actually referenced uh recruitment, you know, where there was a point in time whereby people had to go through paper CVs, you know, like if you get 40 applications, you've got to go through 40 paper CVs. So talk to me a little bit about how like the technology side of things is helping you and helping the end clients on recruitment.

Inside Talent: The AI Platform

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Definitely, and the CVs haven't gone away, unfortunately, at the moment, this moment in time. So um I'm not old enough to see a fax machine, but um I uh used to send overload of CVs, um, and I'm guessing now people are still taking the free job on indeed, and they're sifting for an average of about 70 candidates. Um, our government um decides to pay people the job seekers' allowance if they just click for jobs. So clearly you get lots and lots of time wasters of just click for jobs just so they can get their dull money every single week. Um so that's frustrating. But technology is definitely improved. LinkedIn for me is our biggest cost, but our biggest asset. Um so we're a super user of LinkedIn that allows us to look at market share, data, um years of experience and really hone down um and screen um candidates correctly. Um we're using lots more video. So again, um I remember when I send people out at a very young age where they turned up, bright blue hair, tribal tattooed on their chin, and the client goes, Josh, have you met them yet? Um and I had to say no, um, because obviously my time was better spent on the phone. But they turn open at the door, they've got to give that person an hour. They live local, they could be a potential client in the future, and they go, Josh, what have you done to me? I can't get that hour back. So we video every single candidate on ranger personnel before we send them forward, you can get a good understanding of body language, etc. And where AI is now um capturing is that actually I don't need to be videoing them personally because I need to sleep. Um and actually AI can do a um you can use synthetia and other um pieces of technology to be able to physically screen in people with an AI avatar. Um so again, being a bit more flexible to the candidate, they can interview at 10 o'clock at night, three o'clock in the morning, whatever suits them. Um, but also we've got lots of tech like psychometric profiles and disk profiles to understand are they a big red? Are they gonna are they gonna clash with another big titan in that business? Or are they more introverted? Are they gonna be more suits a different role in the business? So I think you've got a lot more data intelligence to be able to map out talent. Um and that's never existed um before.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

And do you do do you have the same thing for the employer, like whereby they can go through anything like that in order to help identify whether they need what you know, what whether they need a red or whether they need an interesting.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Absolutely. So um, every time we take a role on insight talent, we profile the job. So it's not the person hiring, because clearly they're probably always going to be red. Yeah, um, but it's going, right, I need a lettings negotiator, let's profile your top lettings neck or your manager, whoever it may be, and let's match up the candidates we get in to make sure they're a psychometric match to them. Again, culture-wise, there's no point. You might see somebody, and I think the old days of hire, we've all done it where you go, Do you know what, Josh? You remind me of me when I was 21, yeah? You hook the part, you've got the gift of the gap, you'll be a great estate agent, and they get in. They were born in a whole different generation. They had mobile phones, they've got the internet, they've got social media. Uh, and because they look a little bit like you, or because you like them for whatever reason, you hire them, and then after three months you go, actually, this person doesn't want to get out of bed and get to the office for half past eight for a morning meeting.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

They are like you.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Exactly. So um so you can disprofile every single uh every single job and then match them up to the candidates. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

Love it. Um okay, and you've got a new you've got a new take on uh recruitment, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah, how does that work? So Inside Talent we launched um eight weeks ago, been a great success so far. I saw a massive niche in the market. Um, like you said before, recruitment is expensive, right? Especially when you get it wrong, and especially when there's a recruitment fee attached to it. Um after doing about 18 months of um experimenting and speaking to clients and sitting in ballrooms, um, the need for a recruitment solution that actually helped agents at a lower cost. So it's a it's a full-scale model for the industry I saw had legs. So the AI platform allows you basically to advertise a job in free clicks across every single job board in the UK, um, as well as your social media platform, but it saves you hours and hours screening candidates. So AI basically screens every candidate, so it's psychometric, literacy numeracy, and a video interview. Um AI then scores out of five stars and puts that straight to your inbox. So, like I said, if there were 70 CVs coming in, you've still got to sit through 70 CVs, whereas we would do that for you, and then technology might give you seven to look at. But then seven have been benchmarked against all the top people in your business. It's gone out to hundreds of thousands of job seekers rather than just a recruiter emailing up to their five mates and going, fancy job, which is what I do. Um, and then allowing that to come straight into your dashboard, completely white labelled, and it integrates with Google and Microsoft. You could booking people straight to your diary rather than bringing up Josh and saying, Josh, can I speed Mark next week? It's all done seamlessly.

Training, Perks, And Retention

SPEAKER_02 18:54

That's awesome. So and I'm but I'm guess I'm guessing you need to be doing a reasonable amount of recruitment, like for that model to work for you as well as for the for the person on the other end, or like how does it work? You know, if I'm a if I'm a I don't know, I'm a one branch agent uh and I might hire two people a year. How does it work?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

So it's built it's built for the smaller businesses as well as the bigger ones, right? So it's a package for everybody out there, um, and we charge£250 a month to use the technology, and you can have up to three hires um per year. So effectively it's a thousand pounds or higher compared to£5,000, which is my average fee.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Yeah. But it's additional. It's crazy. So if I'm paying, I can pay£250 a month and I can basically have this recruitment module that works for me, whereby like Does it help me write it?

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Does it does it help me write job ads or it does it really for you? So um when I said the three clicks, it writes for JD for you, that's all done by AI. So there's no issues around bias, there's no issues around discrimination, it's written by an AI um bot. We also give you a careers page as well, white label career page, which again adds people attracts people to your business where you can sell your culture, right? Because you might have the best culture in the world, but if no one knows about it and you kept it in a real secret box in your office, no one's gonna know that. So it's a place where you can actually show your uh your employer of choice and why people should join your business and make it a really seamless process as well. Because again, when you might be advertising on LinkedIn or a job board, it's very it's it's not intimate at all. It's we've got this vacancy, apply, we might get back to you. And nine times out of ten, most people don't bother. Whereas every application will get a uh a yes or a no and the reasons why. Um the job description written for you, it goes across every single job board, like I said, with social media. Whereas even in our business, we we go out to uh a particular niche of people that might have that particular job title, um, and that's it. Um and then we go and head on. So this is definitely a scalable option, but it suits uh CRO to 10 office independent as well as a big um national, which we've obviously which bank about offline. There's lots of companies that are interested in different different parts of it. Yeah, absolutely.

Bad Managers And Broken Pathways

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Um okay, so so once and once I get that person in, uh what's the process after that? So I go through, I go through, I post my jobs, you know, AI's helped me to identify what's so special about my company, write the right job description. It's helped me to limit down all the candidates that I've got sent, and I've narrowed it down to you know five and I've met them and I've gone with one of them. Um then what I guess I guess it's no I guess you don't have to worry anymore about like how do I get my fee back because you're just paying a monthly subscription for the platform, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Get a monthly, yeah, you're paying your monthly fees, but also the the bit of kit allows you to job offer. So you could job offer by the system as well and send out your contract. We also do a 360 reference check, so right to work, a DBS and free professional references. Again, talks to another HR provider you're using, so whether that's Sage or Brieve or wherever it may be. But also we've um got some bolt-ons, so we we pride ourselves on recruit, train, and retain. So if you go for the gold package, um, we can do all your training as well. So you put people, every new recruit we put them through a property mic level three um qualification or training course to give them get them qualified. But also we've linked in things like perk box, so it gives them 9,000 different perks and benefits, um, a free uh mental health support line and loads of other bits and pieces to try and keep people. Because I think half the battle is finding great people, yeah. But the other half of the battle that nobody talks around, which is uh a secret that no one everyone knows but doesn't really talk about, which is how do you keep great people? Because you can have the best culture in the world, but if they don't feel um happy in their job or they don't feel that they've been recognised for a great performance, and that might be just saying well done and people going, I can see that Mark's give Josh a clap or uh that kind of stuff, or people don't want to get pissed on the pub every Friday anymore. Yeah, they've got kids, it's not fashionable to drink as much as it used to be, although I love a beer. Um so people want to be looked after in different ways. So this platform allows you to congratulate people, shout people out, but also give them rewards that they want to spend on. They might want to take their kids away, they might want to buy an Amazon fire stick, let them do what they want to do because they just want to keep them happy, right?

Generational Expectations And New Rights

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Yeah, absolutely. So so on that note then, like, what over the years actually has it changed much? I was gonna ask you over the years, like, what are the main reasons that people come back to you and go, You've got to get me out of this place? And um, and that's one of the questions. And then my next question is like, and is has that changed much over the years? Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

So people don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers. Um, you've heard I'm sure you've had that saying before. Uh, and then bad managers in the industry, we promote people I think the wrong way, which is you start as a junior neg, you go up to a senior neg valuer, you go up to a manager, then we make you a regional manager. That was always the way before self-employed come out. Um, and the best valuers don't necessarily make the best managers, they don't really want to be a manager, they just want to earn more money, and that's that's uh necessary evil, I suppose, to get that. They're really good at listing houses. Um, but to get to the next pay run, they have to then move up to an area or a manager role. So I think unfortunately, we've promoted people that shouldn't really be managers or should be put for a manageable course to be able to lead properly. So I think people leave bad managers, not bad jobs. Um, and I think as as the industry grows, back when we first started, you you worked for a corporate, you got on really well, you'd done all your training, then you set up on your own. You had a bricks and mortar office, you you paid the right move fees, they weren't as high as they are now, um, and you went alone. Now people are going, do you know what? The fees are really high to have an office on the high street is really expensive. Let's look at an EXP or an or a Yopa model uh or something different to make sure we can launch. So I think their models have replaced people going on their own because it's just more expensive.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah. So what's what is the right path then? Because you know, we spoke about it before. We said, like, you know, in an ideal world, you want to place people in a job whereby they've got a little a bit of career ambition and they they can sort of see the path forward. Yeah. But the path if the path forward is not necessarily to go from neg to valuer to manager to what what what is maybe a what is maybe a path that someone could get excited about if we're not going to promise them that they're going to become a manager, for instance.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

I think it's down to the individual, right? And it's down just being honest for truthful. I think a lot of our industry is full of bollocks, excuse my French, and people promising the earth and not delivering. So I think it's understanding, right? Why do you want a job here? What can you offer? And being honest with people. And it might be, I just want to be a lifter because most listers, if you're really good, can earn more money than your managers anyway. If they're just looking after the listings, they can earn more money. So I think it's understanding where they want to get to, where you're going as a business. And as a I suppose as an entrepreneur and a business owner, you've got to sell the vision of where you're taking that business. And is that more offices? Is that future progression? Or is that actually we just want to make this a million pound office, a two-million pound office, a three million pound office? And as you go forward, guess what? We're going to spend more money on marketing, you'll get called out on more listings, you're earn more commission. So I think it's understanding and storytelling to a certain degree. And Chris Watkins talks about storytelling all the time, which is where is this business going and what is going to be my role in this business going forward?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

And if they can't believe that, then they're not going to join and they're not, they're not going to stay.

Why People Exit Property

SPEAKER_02 25:52

And I guess a lot of that comes back to what we were talking about in the beginning. Like, company says, Oh, we've got a great culture, we've got values, we've got this, and it turns out there's just nothing, there's nothing there. And maybe there's no plan either. Like, you know, maybe there is no roadmap, maybe they don't know what they're hiring for, they're hiring because I know there was someone here answering the phones and now they've left. Doesn't sound like a great job, does it? Not one that I would apply for, but um what about like different you know, you hear a lot of stuff about like the traits of different generations. Do you think that's a thing, or do you think that that's just light bollocks?

Self-Employed Models And Choice

SPEAKER_01 26:28

I think it's a little bit of truth in it, but I think that just the way we are as human beings now, we want things instantly, right? You want a pizza, you go and deliver it in your house within 10-15 minutes, and you want things and it's a lot quicker. And I think that's what the younger generation won because they're used to buying things on demand, right? And they want that promotion very, very quickly. We've got this whole debate around the employee rights bill coming in, which is gonna give people the same amount of rights as someone with two years' experience. After how long? After what, sorry? Uh what is it? Straight away. Straight away, so immediately. So that's coming down the track um this year and the rest of it's coming out next year in 2027. Um, so that's gonna be massive because before when you could take a bit of a punt on somebody and go, do you know what? I liked how Mark answered the questions. There's a few things I didn't didn't like, but I've got a probation period of six months, so I can I can put them three spaces. That's gonna go, right? So that person you hire, if they don't work out in the in the same afternoon you hire them, you're gonna have to put them through a management to three months management program to get rid of them. Yeah, um, so three months of salary, three months of NI, three months of pension contribution, that company car, whatever it may be. Um, so you've got to be careful who you hire, but digressing a little bit. So I think, yeah, people want things a lot quicker. I think there's been a stigma around the younger generation, they just want beanbag days every day, yeah. And they want to lay in. I think after COVID, there was a change for people really wanting to work from home. But as you can see from the big businesses, um, they're getting people back into offices, and people actually like to be we're humans, right? We like to be around people. Um, so I think a lot of businesses are bringing people back, and people have accepted that with open arms because, from a mental health perspective, more importantly, we're a social race of people, we need to be around people all the time. Um, but I do think younger people think they're owed something. And I lied to get paper around when I was 12 and you had to be 13. I washed dishes when I was a kid, and I really liked money and I liked earning my stripes. And I think sometimes in this day and age, people don't probably see that as I just expect that I'm gonna get a monthly allowance from mum and dad and I'm gonna get a promotion after 12 months. And I think we did a bit of a case study in in reindeer personnel where if people don't age under 25, if they don't get a promotion or any kind of recognition after 12 months, they're susceptible to a tap on the back and they would look at an opportunity that they're thereafter. So I think we've got to look at how we manage younger people and engage with them, ask them what they want, get feedback because if people are just doing the same stuff they did 20 years 20 years ago, nothing's gonna change and people you're gonna lose good people. And actually, if it was just uh put your arm around Mark, Mark, what can I do to to really help you grow your career? It might be the simplest things that you can just tweak. It might not necessarily be money, it could be it doesn't have to be a promotion, it could be something just in the office.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yeah, it could just be some form of education to move them forward, couldn't it? Yeah. Like some course or something, so they felt like they was gaining something. Um when you see though that that younger generation maybe coming into the industry, maybe this is just because we're old now, right? Yeah. Because I'm thinking back again to like, you know, Spicer McCall days before it was Spicer Heart. Like people were joining and leaving every day. Do you know what I mean? Like, uh because part of me wonders whether, you know, when people say, Oh, you know, young people they don't want to do anything, and this just this generation, I sort of think back and think, but does any young generation want to do anything? I mean, we're all like getting drunk, getting stoned, and like just turning up to work half cut, aren't we? I mean, like weren't that every generation when you were young. And then you grow up a little bit. Like millennials have sort of matured a bit now, haven't they? And now they're like a bit more responsible. They've got kids and so I just wonder if it's just well, that's what happens with young people. Um when you when you're seeing, uh, like you say, from your survey, after 12 months, if they hadn't had a promotion, they want to leave. Are they leaving the industry or are they can they go and get another job?

Regulation, Fees, And Professionalism

SPEAKER_01 29:59

So they they can definitely stay with the industry if they're really good. What I meant by that is if they don't get any recognition within 12 months. That's that doesn't have to be a promotion, but any kind of well done, this is the target, this is where you're going, this is where we're taking you, this is what we're gonna invest in you, whether that be a course, like you said, whether that be we're gonna take you to a leadership summit where you can learn from some of the people, they they just need some encouragement. If they don't get that within 12 months, they're off. And some of them stay within the industry, but we're losing um probably about 15% of our our industry every single year. Where do they um and it's just different sectors? So lots of people are going abroad and they're going to Dubai and live their high life, um, especially the younger and they've got the bank of Mamma Dad behind them. Um but also use losing people to tech, um, because as a as a well global thing, we're we're obviously All around tech enhancements and we're losing to people to other customer service, hospitality, retail industries that actually are pay better as a basic salary and it's less stress as well.

How To Get Help And Final CTA

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Yeah. Do you think like I don't know, is there any newer, not newer, but like, you know, when we think about estate agency, when I think about estate agency, again, maybe it's just because I'm old. I think about working five and a half or six days a week uh for a low basic salary, reasonable commission, but you know, not earth-chattering. And but it's fun. It's quite a fun job. Um, in the sense that like, you know, you like you say you get to deal with a lot of different people, you see a lot of different situations, you get to help some people find some houses. Um, but are there any models that you sort of look at now employed and think that's brilliant? Like they've re-reimagined the way like that job works, or is it still pretty much how I imagine it?

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Um again, I I think it has changed slightly. I think you the the roles have slightly changed as well. So lots of companies are look at the self-employed model going, right, dealing with one person all the way through from listing your property all the way through to completing. That's quite cool because you've got somebody that's gonna look after you, hold your hand the whole way uh way through. So some people that are are running employed um businesses have kind of caught onto that a little bit. Um, and they're saying, right, just deal with Josh all the way through the process. That's that's good, but then Josh decides to go on holiday, right? Or too many houses. Or it all collapses. So I think some companies, uh, four-think companies have broken down the roles a bit more, being more customer sort of hold-handing, or you're just gonna win the business. But in the main, nothing's really changed too much.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

So there's no like I mean, um you've just told me the answer, but I'm just thinking out loud. I was just wondering whether there was someone out there who was doing this like crazy model where it's like literally like they work in. I don't know, you said there's some people that work from home, but it seems like they're more administrational or like you say, sales progression, that sort of stuff. Like I was wondering whether there was anyone that done anything a bit crazy on that side of things. Um people always get surprised at when they when they when I interview someone at our company and I sort of say to them like, you get unlimited paid holiday. I don't give a shit whether you go to the gym in the morning, whether you walk the dog, I'm only interested in outcomes. I don't care about the output. Yeah. Um I just wondered whether there was many uh Netflix hasn't hit the property industry well.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Maybe we should open my maybe we should open the business like that. But I think at the moment the only way you're gonna get a pure flexibility is being self-employed, right? And unfortunately, what you put into this business, you get out. And I think the more canvassing you do, the more marketing you do, clearly the more instructions you get, the more properties you sell. And them KPIs haven't really changed a lot, and therefore, if you're an employed model, that's what you're expected to do. There's lots of things around you can have unlimited holiday, of course, but clearly them people are not making their money, their jobs are gonna be axed if they're not gonna produce. So there's a bit of a a front of it there where yeah, Netflix hasn't hit hit a business yet over here.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

And the self-employed, uh, the agents that are hiring people that want to be self-employed, that's still the same. They you still find those people their candidates, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Absolutely, yeah. So we support all the the big companies that me and you know, um, and there's different models, and people buy what I'm seeing is now is people are changing charge choosing their model based on culture, not just the split. Because before when this when the self-employed market emerged, it was all about who's gonna pay me more. If I'm the best agent in Bilaricky, I want to join the best company that give me the best split. And actually, now it's more around what kind of marketing support do I get? Do they help me with any instructions? What's the culture like in that business? Can I have my name on the board as well as theirs? There's so many more things that make up that decision. Whereas before, when they f when it first emerged, it was right, I want 80, 90% of the split. Now is actually I'll take 70 or 60 if I'm gonna if they're gonna fill my diary of appointments, or if I they're gonna help me learn and progress.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Yeah. And uh, yeah, like you said, because some people want to be they want their own brand, and some people want support from a brand, so it's like very different that's completely different.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

National brands, so Yopa, for example, quality national brand, and then you've got an EXP with your name above the board, but uh door powered by XP. So and some people want their name on the board, right? That's a massive um ego thing for them. That's fine. I think it's probably more vanity than sanity. But if they're a well-known networked agent, that is important, right? Because people know them and they're up the school gates and they're up the hockey club and the rugby club, and etc. So that is important. So I get the value of it, bearing in mind when my business is called after my surname. I can't I can't say that. But there's definitely a market, I think, and uh and a model for everyone out there. But self-employed isn't for everybody either. So some people want to be employed, and there's nothing wrong with that. So I definitely think there's two markets, and there always will be. I think the the self-employed market will grow, clearly, um, because of national assurance, because of minimum wage, all that kind of stuff, and because there's a lack of regional jobs coming through, so where do you get you don't want to be in a a sort of a glass ceiling uh hit a glass ceiling, so you you've got to have choice. But I do think there's two markets, and there always will be. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 36:24

We're getting close to the end, so I'm just conscious of the time, right? What do you think? What are the problems that you can see coming down the road for recruitment in a state agency whereby you look at it with all of that experience and think to yourself, people don't start doing this, then you're all a bit fucked.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

I think um I think it's a good question. The big one for me is fees, right? Fees and regulation. I think as an industry we need to be regulated. That's the only way we're gonna push up our fees, and the only way we're gonna keep good talent because we can pay them more. So for me, it's regulation. Um, and we're probably one of the only countries in the world where we're not regulated, right? Why is that? I know we've got a really old constitution, but something needs to change. Somebody's gonna get up by the balls and go, do you know what, we're gonna make this licensed. Um, and I do think we'll be able to change the perception a little bit in the inj in the in the industry about estate agents aren't the fourth or fifth horriblest people in the world. Um, but also you can pay the people what they deserve. But if we don't do that, I do think it's gonna be we're scraping the barrel every time to try and find good people, and it's never gonna change. And where inflation's moving, people are paying more, we're gonna get left right behind, and we're gonna literally be have people that can't read and write and go, Do you know what? Yeah, but you can answer a phone, you'll do. Yeah. And that's a big issue, I think.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

I I agree with part of that. I think to myself, like regulation. Um I think I reckon we'll still be down in like, you know, the three or four most hated industries because, you know, lawyers are regulated and they're down there with us as well. Um but they get paid. Yeah. And that's the important bit, isn't it? And they get paid well, right? Yeah. Because like, you know, there are a lot of uh estate agencies out there that probably probably they're probably not listening to this podcast, but like, you know, it's just uh some random bloke who's uh who's opened an office and he's got some dodgy bits of paper in the window that are slightly slanted, and we would all know if we walked past it, like that is just a fucking joke. That they would have to disappear because they wouldn't pay the money that would be required. And so by default, you'd be you know, people talk about the high fees in places like Australia and America and all that sort of stuff, but they charge high fees because it's regulated, because they it's like a lawyer, you have to have a lawyer do this for you, and that lawyer's gone through law school and paid out all this money, and so therefore they're gonna charge this. If you had to pay 20 grand to have a license, in you're not gonna go around and take someone's house on for 500 quid, and neither is anyone else.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

So and I think also as well, the regulation needs to come with some some kind of rules, really, which is if you break them rules, you get yeah, you get pushed up the industry, right? Or you get not just a fine, but you can't work for a certain amount of period, you get disqualified or expelled from the state agency or whatever it may be. Um, but I do think making it because otherwise just getting fines, people have got enough money just to pay the fines away, or the big corporates will pay the fines for their staff. But actually saying, you know what, you can't work in the sector now for three months, yeah. That that then makes sure that everyone abides by the rules. Is that your next venture then to regulate the regulate industry? Not for me, Mark.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

I've got the one to you. Nice, okay. Um all right. So if there's a company out there, it doesn't matter, small, large, they're thinking about recruiting, they're looking at, they're thinking about the new the new models called In Inside Talent. Inside talent. That they like the sound of that, or they're just thinking to themselves, like, actually, I I just need to have a chat with Josh about how I find the right people.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

What's the best way for somebody to best way to find me is on LinkedIn, probably. So um Josh Rayner is my name on the time there. Come find me. Um, or Mark, I'm sure you'll be able to share my details. So Inside Talent or Rainer Personnel, even websites, you'll be able to come to me. But any free advice that it's all about adding value um and just helping people navigate that uh tricky world of talent, which can be a bit of a headache sometimes. Yeah, awesome, love it. Thanks for coming. Thanks so much for having me. Cheers, cheers, Mark.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Thanks for listening to this Estate Agency X podcast. Can you make sure that you're actually subscribed to this podcast channel if you liked the content? Uh it helps us massively to get better guests, and it just helps us generally. So you might think you're subscribed, but just have a double check, whatever your um uh podcast platform of preference is, that you're actually subscribed, and then that way we can continue to grow the channel and get better and better guests for you.