Rebuilding an Agency the Right Way (With Patrick French)

Rebuilding isn’t about starting again. It’s about stripping back what never worked and leading with clarity.

In this episode of the Estate Agency X Podcast, Patrick French from Lloyds Estate Agents shares the unfiltered reality of building, breaking, and rebuilding an estate agency. From the grind of East London lettings to a franchise implosion that tested trust, and the hard leadership decisions required to survive the 2008 financial crash.

Patrick explains why scaling headcount isn’t the same as building resilience, how cutting roles protected margin, and why property management became the cash-flow foundation that kept the business alive. We also explore the difference between being busy and being effective and how rebuilding sales through brand, video, tech and proof (not hope) changed everything.

This is a grounded masterclass in leadership, margin, and building an agency designed to last.

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https://estateagencyx.co.uk/leadingestateagentsoftheworld

This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

From Retail To Lettings Grind

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Estate Agency X. Today I'm talking to Patrick French from Lloyd's Estate Agents. It's an incredible story. We go back through some of the deepest, darkest parts of East London, whereby Patrick learned his trade, double glazing, estate agency, letting agency. We hear about a boss that ran away with everybody's deposits, all the way through to him starting his own business, scaling that business, going through recessions, building it back up again, and where he is today, whereby he's starting to build something really special in Estate Agency, what he's learnt along the way, and how he's doing it differently this time around.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Estate Agency X, the UK's number one Estate Agency podcast discussing the future of Estate Agency, entrepreneurship and business.

SPEAKER_05 0:50

Okay, Pat, thanks for coming in. Before we dive into the episode, are you right just to give the listeners a bit of a background on yourself, how you got into agency, you know, the whole kind of history of yourself and Lloyds?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Yeah, sure. Um I do you want to know why I've got into agency?

SPEAKER_05 1:10

Yes, everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

That's a really weird story, actually. So I I didn't really know what I was doing. I was 22 and I I've never really thought about being an estate agent. I wanted to be a footballer, I wasn't live enough. Um I worked otherwise then for four years in retail. I was kind of a little bit what I do, what I do. And I was walking down the road, well, I think him off and slow, and a guy drove past in a Porsche convertible, and I recognised him, and it was a guy that I used to go to school with. And um bloke I was walking along the road with, I was like, Jesus, that's that's whatever his name was, I can't remember now. I don't remember the nickname, yeah. And then he went, Oh, do you know? I went, Yeah, I went to school with him. I went, how is he driving a pulse convertible? And he was like, Oh, he's an estate agent. And that was it. Literally, that was it. That was my reason for thinking I'd be an estate agent. I thought, he's not really even a bright, the bright guy. Uh if he could be a state agent, I can be an estate agent, I've got retail experience. I've worked up the West End, I could be an estate agent.

SPEAKER_05 2:19

Did it turn out that he'd been led in it for an hour, like, because he'd cut the top salesman for a top salesman?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

It turned out that his dad was a property developer. Right, okay. Um, and he wasn't an estate developer at all.

SPEAKER_06 2:32

Let you down a career for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

No, but the worst thing about it was that I couldn't get a bloody job in the state agency. I went for interviews, I went, well, I'm gonna be an estate agent. Man, my husband crew I started replying to ads. I had a I remember I had an interview with Bear Salives. I thought, I'm gonna get this. Yeah, uh, it's actually cheaper. And um, and I had the interview and I and I didn't get the job. And I think it was the first, I think it was one of the first times I'd ever not got a job, because I I think I interviewed really well. And um, and they said, I said, why? I was like, why? Why haven't I got, oh you haven't got any direct sales experience? And I went, direct sales experience, like, what's that? Didn't Google it, didn't exist. So I was like, what's direct sales? And I went, you know, like selling cars or wind ups. So hence I then become a double glazing salesman for a year to get this was how committed I was to get becoming an estate agent and getting the pulse. Was I went on the road selling windows for a year um and got all the training that came with that? Um and then I went and got offered a multitude of jobs um as an estate agent uh just because I've been selling windows for a year.

SPEAKER_05 3:45

Yeah, and then so you've done your you'd done your kind of apprenticeship as an employee estate agent. And then what made you decide to go out on your own?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

I just found it so easy. I thought it was literally uh on the percentage I was getting at the time when I first got in the business. I actually started as a lien agent. And um you you you basically terrible, you basically was got£500 a month, six grand a year, yeah. Um, and your commission was three and a half percent if you rented it, three and a half percent if you took it on as well, so potential seven percent. And then if you hit target, you got two percent bonus. And the office I worked in was at least to have a yeah, it was across the line from where I was already. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was yeah, so it was East Haves, um, ending overs, it was a double front, it was a big office. That uh on just the letting side, the sales market at the time was when the sales market was on the floor. That's why I became a letting agent, because there was no business being done in sales. It was, I think it must have been 93, 93, yeah, 1993. And obviously, off the back of the late 80s crash, it was really, really struggling. So I had one sales negotiator in this office, and I was one of four lettings negotiators and an assistant manager and a manager. So there were six full-time people working in lettings in East Ham. And it was one of the biggest agencies in the area, Independence. They had a lot of property, but I had no experience of this at all. But I'd come off the background of working really, really hard, like like double glazing selling was a hard, hard job. Like you get in the office. Uh my I would live in the Worthamstone. Our office was in Wembley, so I had to drive around the A406 to get there for nine in the morning. So you can imagine the time I left in the morning, around the A406 in the early 90s. Um have a meeting with my manager, get my leads, which would be anywhere from Margay to Northampton, um, then go. And my first one would normally be around about two o'clock. And then I'd if I finished that early, um, I'd get another lead. So I could get another lead and I you know sometimes you'd get there and and they weren't there or or whatever, I don't know what the setting were, right? Because first thing you'd ask was, are you i all the people here that can make a decision? Oh no, my partners have worked, oh okay, I'll have to come back. Um and then if you finished at sort of like four or five o'clock, you get another lead at seven. And uh I I'd work till like ten o'clock at night, I'd be driving home, I'd often get home at like midnight, um, driving back from wherever. So you it's a long day, and I work seven days a week. I've done this for a year. Um so when I started working in this this office, the office hours were nine till nine. And if you you was up on shift, you worked at nine in the morning till seven in the evening, or you came in at eleven and you worked till nine. So you were doing viewings at eight, nine o'clock at night.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Um around World Docks and East Ham and Placeau and Best Off. Yeah, yeah. Um and um, and I just it was for me, it was like I understand because I'd worked such long hours seven days a week, and and you've got a day off in the week. I don't want to do that. It's a breeze. I I want to earn money, you know. Um so I went, can I work six days? First thing I'd done was say, can I work six days? And because I'd done that in West End as well when I first left school. And I mean, yeah, you're weirdo if you want to. Yeah, and I said, Great, thanks. Didn't have to work Sundays. So which was which was when I thought, Brother, I can play football. Because I I didn't play football Sundays since I left school. So um, I worked six days, but I also didn't bother with the shifts. I got in at nine and left at nine. I didn't I didn't do the shift, so I'll just come in and maybe I've got mouths to feed, so I mean looking for a pulse. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:45

Yeah. I'm basically saving six grand.

First Agency Wins And Relentless Work

SPEAKER_00 7:49

And um, and what happened was there was like me and three other negotiators, and the assistant manager used to rent properties as well. And we used to have a white board up on the wall. And the guy who owned the company, Andy Gover, um, he would just come in on rare occasions and he'd just walk in the office and he'd just look like the richest man I'd ever seen in my life. Um, and he'd look at the board and then he'd walk upstairs and he'd go up to the upstairs offices. Um and sometimes he'd say, Who's that? Who's whose initials are they? Um, and then he'd pick on someone and whatever. So I didn't really care about any of that, really, to be honest. All I thought was I was just gonna, I'm just gonna smash this, I'm just gonna, you know, and I loved it. I absolutely loved going from being in my car driving for hours and sitting in people's houses and imposing myself on their evening, even being fed by them, um, to having a desk and a chair and a phone that I used to get really quickly, and registering applicants and going out and doing viewings and meeting people and taking on properties, which I've done very, very quickly. Um and and I just loved it. I just loved it. It was like the best job that I said to you earlier, it was just like the best job I could ever have thought of doing, other than being a footballer. And um, and I just took to it. I everyone just I just got deposits, deposits, deposits, deposits. And um we'd we'd always have a lot of property, we'd always have a lot of stock. And I'd rent I'd rent at least one property a day, every day. And obviously I worked six days a week, so I always had six deals. But every single week from week one, every week, I had done more deals than the other three negotiators and them and the assistant manager. So when you put your initial work, PF, PF, PF, you'd write the address that you'd rented, the road, and uh how much you rented for the weekly rent, which in them days you might remember because I was£100 a week for one bet flat,£130 a week for two bed flat,£106 a week for a three-bed house. Just the same, didn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Didn't matter if the condition was really, really crap, or it was really, really amazing. It still didn't really, you know, five pounds a week difference, maybe, if you're lucky, but not really, not a massive difference. Um and I'd I'd always rent at least six properties a week, and sometimes eight, nine or ten. But I'd always beat the rest of the people. So then after sort of three or four weeks, and it goes a coming one day and went, Who's PF? And I was like, That's me. And I was at the back desk, I sat at the back because I was the last one in. So you open the door from the street and you'd have Nig, Nick, Nig, and then me right at the back. But I was on the phone, and if I ever saw anyone walk into that door, I'd engage eye contact, put it to my chair, and then come and sit with me. So I'd get every single lead, and it could be a landlord, which then meant I got an extra three and a half percent. Um but yeah, I just just took to it, just loved it. It was just brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 11:32

And and what made you so you you found it easy, and you thought it was it from there that you said I'm gonna set up Lloyds, or did you work anywhere else after that? Well, because didn't you work somewhere where the geyser just ran off of everybody's deposits?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

He was he was the geyser who moved off of every deposit. Yeah, somewhere rich. I was only there for six months. And um and within that six month period, he had I think he had nine offices across London. Uh an office in um Clapham, uh an office in Royal Docks, uh, office in um in Dock Street, sorry in Canary Wolves in Buffalo's area. No, Doc Street was walking.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Um and he had an office around Ealin and and all over London, like nine offices. And some of them were Andy Gover-owned offices, and some of them were Andy Gover, but he didn't own them. He was uh, I can't remember what they call it, um, like a uh like McDonald's isn't owned. Like a franchise. A franchise, yeah. So it was like a franchise. So it was like a director of that of that company, yeah, but he was a partner.

SPEAKER_03 12:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

So he had access to their accounts. And basically overnight, they just a load of there was a load of meetings, a load of busy, business-looking people come to the office, and they they closed all the, they didn't even close all their offices, they just sent sign writers in um or sign companies in, and they just changed the name from Andy Gover to Bonner Property Services overnight. So we come in the same, same black background, same white writing, and the same red writing. But just the same. It just said Bonner Property Services, it's then governing property services. Well, the next couple of weeks or so or more, had many different types of people. Some people coming in literally breaking down, like crying broken, right? You like I've had no rent for like nine months, but where is my money? And and working there, you're like, what is this coming into these people? And then there was the the one, the guy that came in read it, the Pikey. Mm-hmm. It was Pikey, um the the traveller. So he he came in with his mate, and um two of them come in, and they and I and I'd done the eye contact and realised and they come and sat with me. See here, see here guys. Um and they sat sat with me and they went, I want my money, I want my deposit. I've moved out of my flat, I've been told that you've changed companies, I don't care, I want my money, I want my deposit. It was 500 quid the essay. Well, okay, well, I've nothing to do with that. He went and speaks to the manager, and the manager was nowhere to be seen because they'd obviously done whatever. I said, I don't know what time they're coming in. I said, So I can't remember exactly. But basically, he was like, I don't care. Whatever you're saying, I want my 500 pounds, I want it right now. And if I don't get it, stuff's gonna start happening. Now the other guy, who wasn't the tenant, said, I'm gonna start smashing up your office, and then I'm gonna start smashing you up, and then we're gonna smash everyone else up. And please don't tell me that you're gonna call the police. He said, because I've just come out of prison and I like prison. I like being in prison. It makes me it gives me something to do for the day. I know what time I've got to go out of bed, I know what time I'm gonna eat, I know what time I'm gonna sleep, suits me down to the ground. Prison ain't a problem for me. But if he don't get his 500 quid, this is all gonna happen right now. So I understand where he's coming from. I get here, I stop myself from saying, You ain't gonna smash me up, but I really wanted to, but I thought, no, no, customer service. I'm gonna go and hide this door now. Let me go and do it. Let me just go and speak to someone upstairs. Someone upstairs, I can't remember the guy's full name, his name is John. Um, tell me to do eventually over himself. I went this guy downstairs, he's gonna do this. I said, um I come from Walthamstone, and I know this kind of person, and what he's just said about prison, and I said, um he is gonna start spashing up the office if he don't get 500 quid. And he went, we ain't got 500 quid. And he went, So, I don't know what you want to do. I went, you can call the police, so by the time I get here, all hell's gonna break loose. So it's up to you. So let me make a phone call. So we had an office in Hackney. So he phoned the Hackney office, he said, right, they've got 500 quid in cash he can have. He went, you really think I said, I'm telling you, I said, this is gonna go bad. He said, All right, just take him out, tell him to tell him to go to Hackney, get his 500 quid. I went, no problem. So I went, that's this. Great news for you. What's that? We've got 500 quid, you've just got to go to Hackney and get it. I ain't going anywhere for my 500 quid. You're giving me 500 quid. I went, but we ain't got it here. I said, what do you want me to do? I said, well then start smashing the office up because we ain't got it here. I said, but it is in the Hackney office. I'm telling you, go, said no, because when you I go, you're gonna do it. He said, but and then he went, all right then, and he picked up my car keys off the desk. He went, we'll go to Hackney in your car. And I went, okay. I said, we'll go to Hackney in my car. I thought, you know what? Just get you out of the office. Let's just we'll get there's they'll set it there, I'll take you there. So I thought I'll risk myself, we'll go to Hackney, it better be open. And they put it for 100 quid. Um, but then he said, and I'm driving. And that's when I went, I had a manager to you.

SPEAKER_05 17:01

Not quite a pulse, but you were getting there, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

I was on the way. I went, no. I said, that's that's there's the lion. I said, that's it. I said, you ain't driving my car. I said, I'll be with you. I said, you're in the car, one of you in the back, one of you in the back seat. I'm driving there. I said, that's it. Yeah, I know, right. So we so I drove down me. They did have the cash. Um, everyone I drove them back to his home, like now with best bussies, and um, and they was like, Oh, you're an amazing bloke. Yeah, I I wouldn't have really smashed you up. And then off they went. But that was that was a that was one circumstance. But the worst, worse than them were the people coming in that hadn't paid their mortgage. Yeah. And there was people coming in that literally was getting letters, yeah, we're gonna get repossessed.

The Franchise Collapse And Fallout

SPEAKER_05 17:48

Yeah, I mean it was pretty common in back then in that area, you know, like there was a lot of people that would even buy houses, rent them out for nine months and never pay the mortgage. Do you know what I mean? Or that was pretty normal back then. Um, okay, so and all of that made you think to yourself, oh, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna open an estate agency myself. So but and not only did you open an estate agency, you continued to stay in East London, right? Was the first one in Bethnel Green, or was the first one in in Woodford or no?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

The first one, well, I I worked for another company shortly after that. And that company had Walthamstow, uh, an officer in Worthamstown's book and somewhere else. But then I then I met a couple of guys who wanted to open up their own agency in Walthamstow, and they wanted someone to do Lens, and at that time I was Lens. So I I basically had a meeting with them and they said, let's open this agency together. We're we're gonna open it anyway. But you know, we'll you can do lens. I went, yeah, brilliant. So we I opened it with them. So I didn't open my own agency. Lloyd's also my first agency, the other one, the other company was my first company, and there were two partners, there were three of us that opened it, and I was there from I think that was about from starting Annie Gover, I think this was about 18 months later. Yeah, maybe a year, a year to eight months. It was only a year to 18 months after starting Antly Governor that I actually opened my own business, albeit with two partners as an independent company. And how long did you stay with them for? And I was with them until um I was actually with them until 2001, but I started my business in 97. I registered my business in 97, and the reason was because I worked, I could see that they was gonna basically screw me over. They they uh they offered me an opportunity to buy into the company because when I first met them, I didn't have any money, but they promised me the world. They said, if you come and you do lettings for our company, we'll make you a partner, you'll be a third partner. So it's us two. I own a third, he owns a third, you'll get a third, and you've just got to pay this amount of money and we'll keep it open to you because we realise you can't do it now that you could do it in a year. Yeah. So I said, okay, definitely let's do that. So we reopened and and it was brilliant. We was absolutely doing great, it was really, really good, good office, really busy environment, um, done loads of business, and uh after year one, after year one was when they offered me that that situation. And I said, Right, and they said if you can by next by the end of next year, if you can pay this money, you can have a third company. I went, yep, done, brilliantly. So I'd done that. I got the money. Um, I only got about a third of it, and I got a bank loan for the other two thirds. And I got it by September, and I had till December to to buy in. And um they went, Well, I got their money. And they stalled. They said, Oh, we've just got to have a meeting with our accountant on our and then oh someone's just got to go on holiday. Someone went on holiday to Thailand for two months. Okay, when it gets back, we'll sort of out. And this dragged on for six months till the March after the second full year. And um they said, Oh, we'll go have a meeting about this this this purchase, this you you buying in officially. I went, okay. So we went over to public and they went, Oh, we can't do what we originally was gonna do. So what we've done is we split the company into this company estate agents and this company letting agents.

SPEAKER_05 21:22

Right.

Founding Partnerships And Betrayal

SPEAKER_00 21:23

And you don't have to pay anything, but we're gonna give you a third of this company letting agents and nothing of this company estate agents. Right. Now my deal with them was uh 35%, no basic, no salary, just 35% profit of profit after costs from day one. So when I first started working with them. So if we if we banked at the time, let's say 10 grand is too much, but let's say if we banked 10 grand after and we spent two grand on costs, say it was eight grand, I'd get 35% to 8 grand um gross. And I was self-employed, I used to do my own tax return. And they said, No, we're gonna do this. I went, so you're gonna give me a third of the company that I've completely built all by myself, which is a 33 and a third percent. And at the moment I get 35%. I went, don't sound like a very good deal, does it? I said, so they went, oh yeah, but but but you'll own the company. I went, but I won't that, will I? I said, because you'll own that part of the company, and I'll be working and you'll be benefiting from my work. I went, no. I said, you can punk that. I said, I'm not interested. And we finished the meeting and they said, Oh, well, we'll we'll work somewhere Kelsey out. I went, will you work somewhere Kelsey? I said, but I'm done. So I left actually, I didn't go back in the office. I was I was actually quite upset by being what I felt was kind of betrayed, like they'd gone back on a word that I I sort of trusted. And um, and I rung, one of them rang me and I said, I'm not coming back, let's have to get it. Well, you're gonna walk away from this. And we built it in just two years, and this was the other kicker in the very first four years. I banked more money than they did together. In the second four year that just passed, I again banked more money than they banked together. And we were now in the third year, and I was already banking more money than they'd banked in that first three months of that third year. And I said, I'm not coming back. And they went, or what you can do? I went, nothing. I said, I'll don't worry about it. I said, but I'm not coming back. And then one of them was like then rang me up and said, Oh no, this feels so wrong, this feels so wrong, we we we we can't we can't do this, you know. You've got to we'll we'll give you what we've originally said. And I'm alright, fine. And I was but I've already lost the trust, yeah, you know. But I went, yeah, right, fine. I said, okay, that's that's perfect. So I paid them the money, and they did make me a third partner and a director of that company. But it kind of soured it, you know, it kind of gone to that extreme to get it, yeah. Yeah, and and it and and and it was never really the same. And we carried on, we were smashing it, we'd become the biggest station in Northamstone, uh independent at that time. Um, but still kept banking more money than them every single year for another couple of years or whatever. Um, and Danny, who is my business partner now, as you know, started working for me then, and another guy started working for me then as well, so we grew as a department as well, was doing more business. Um and then uh I got I got I was still on the same pay deal of of like a percentage of what I bought in. And um my pay one month was 12 grand, but it was like 12,000 pounds, like September 1999 or whatever. It was a big month, September for that ends was a busy month. And one of the directors went, I ain't signing that check. No, that's just ridiculous, you can't be earning, you can't be earning 12 grand. So I went, Oh I said it is what it is. So I left again. I said, You know what? Pope you're coming, I'm not interested. And he again gave me the check and then it lasted three months. But by then I've already set up Lloyd's because I knew he was coming, and I'd already secured the premises next door, the office next door, which we shared the car park, and I was ready to go. I was just ready. I had I had all my branding and everything in my head. I've I've sort of designed it myself, knew what I was gonna do. Um and I left and they paid me out, and they paid me out about four times what I bought him for. Um, and they gave me the car that I had. And we had other things going on, we had a couple of properties together, and we did so well. Um, but then that was basically it. But then I started and opened up in Forest Gate in an in an office just to start off with. We were just two desks and a phone, and me and Danny in an estate agent, and we'd just done that in. And then when the office next door to that company was open, then I opened up next door and we were then an estate agent. In in Worthamstow? In Worthamstow.

SPEAKER_05 26:10

Because you're not you you you're not in Worthamstow now, are you?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

No, no, we've we opened um we opened that office in Worthamstow in 2001. Um, then we opened in Bethel Green in 2004, that office is still there, and then we opened in Woodford in 2016, about a year after we closed our Worthamstow office. Right. Um so we still retained two offices, but we just moved from Wolfhamstow to Woodford, yeah, which was probably a big mistake.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

Right. Okay. So and during that period of time, um, you I know you expanded the company out, you had uh quite a lot of staff at one point. I think you were up to maybe like 18, 20, 20 or something like that. Um we're talking all through the early 2000s and then right into the financial crash 2007-8 period of time, at which point you decided like to make the company lean again in order to get through those that period of time. So, what's some of the things that you've learned like from through going through that um in terms of like, you know, I'm guessing most people just they don't even have a financial plan, they just dream that one day they're gonna have loads of branches, loads of staff, and it's gonna be like, you know, gonna have the convertible portion, all that sort of stuff. Been around that circle, like, you know, I what's some of the stuff that you've that you've learned about, I don't know, how to have a successful business?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Um well that I think my well my portion suddenly after a time just wasn't uh wasn't it I think when I was 22, yeah, I wasn't at the moment of course, but I didn't um I didn't didn't uh think that won in one. And uh but oh god, I don't know, it's a tough sort of like question. What's the difference?

SPEAKER_05 28:01

What's the difference between like you know having a company with 20 staff?

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:06

And that and everything that came with it, and then turning in the company to be lean with less staff and decided what makes you decide to fuck going back to having 20 staff.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Well that that was like again, it was the 2008 banking crisis that was the catalyst that started that like trimming down, as you say, because I had to make the the banking crisis meant I had to make six people redundant, and I had to, yeah, if I didn't do that, and I I made a very quick decision there because the pipeline literally disappeared and I went from wherever it was in both offices. And I and I done I went into sales estate agency from 2001 when I opened up the Warhammer office and I ran the sales, and I came away from Lens because I'd had enough of Lens by then, so I just became an estate agent. Um, so I was running both offices in sales, and in 2008 the pipeline just went down to zero in less than three months. Um, and yet I had six staff by a secretary in each office and two sales and coaches in each office, and I had and I thought, well, we've got no money for nothing coming and they're they're only to do with sales. And we was doing more business, not business, we were doing more time because we were getting more listings from people who couldn't sell because of the banking crisis. So they were ringing us, going, Oh, put my property on the market, my estate agent. It was nothing to do with their estate agent, it was because the banking um crisis had happened and lenders weren't lending, and you know, buyers were were now scared to buy it, so they were pulling out of sales. But people were just going, Oh, well, I'll put it on with you, I'll put it on with you. So it was going out on all these listings and and people saying, Yeah, put my property on the market, put my property on the market, working harder, and I just thought, no, this is this is going to end badly, and if I don't address it really quickly, and it was probably the most sensible business decision I made, but very much the hardest, was to say to those six people, we haven't got a business, we I can't employ you anymore, and and I made six people redundant. And then we went back to just being a letting agent. So from 2008, we were just a letting agent and a property management. And our property management was brilliant because in those eight years we had increased our management portfolio to 250, 300 properties, all in and around Worthamstow, Bethel Green Hackney, um, really good markets, really good rents, um, always busy, always renting and stuff really quickly. Um so then we were still quite sizable. Um, but sort of the the processes within business became more and more efficient, and and the managing staff became over the next, let's say, ten years from 2008 to 2018, actually which is really, really key, because that's when I had heart surgery. Um and it was up to that point where we'd gone down to literally six or seven people. And the last two negotiators I had was in the Bethel Green office in I think 2019. And I said to Danny, my business partner, at the time, Well, we're not doing enough business to pay these two people. Um, the properties that the new properties were barely coming on the market anymore. It was all our managed stock. The only stuff we were renting was properties where tenants had moved out and we put it back on the market to release it. And that was easy. It still is, it's the easiest part of the job. You list it and you just get inundated with inquiries and you go meet loads of people in the property and you rented it again.

SPEAKER_05 31:41

It's just an order taker, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah, there's nothing, it's nothing. You don't need a a person, you know. So I just said to Danny, let's shut up, let's just just get rid of them. Just just just make them redundant, just so we've got no job. They'd they'd had they these two particular guys that um nearly had a fight in the office um because they were long ahead to each other. And it was just, I just don't need this in my life, I don't need the agro. So we uh we let those two go. And me and Danny went back to being late negotiators. It was like we'd just started Lords again, but we were both like going to properties and we'd beat each other. I was doing more letters than him, and then he was doing more lets for me, and we had a little competition going between us, and that was for about a year or two. Um and it was fun again, you know. It was like because there was no headache, there was no staff, yeah, you know, and and obviously, naturally, sensibly, it was a good business decision because of course we weren't paying out so much money. Um, we weren't paying ourselves a commission for renting these properties out um or bonus or anything like that. It was just literally, I'm better than you, you know, I'm gonna rent more property than you. And it was fun again, you know, it was it was a good time, actually, 20 2018 to 2020. Um it was a good bit of fun.

SPEAKER_05 33:36

It sounds like that was a point whereby the company really sort of re was reconneness in in a way and it's growing up behind since then because definitely. I guess we'll we probably didn't start working together till what 2020.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

I don't know, was it after that? I think it was we we we went with life cycle when we were just a letting agent. Yeah. And I'm I remember kind of moaning about it that it was very geared towards the state agency. I mean what was what was really, you know, it was alright, it was good, there was a lead coming through, it was somebody wanted to rent and I could put the property on your system. Um I don't even remember when we first came with you, which I think was probably about 2016, 17, 18, one of those years. We were we I don't think we even was a listing properties to rent through life cycle at that time. I think we still had expert agent who was putting it through them. Yeah, and you was just we were just using your diary and all time stuff. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Sending up blogs and things like that. It was like that kind of thing that kind of drew us to me, because we weren't really doing any of that.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Um, but then when we did do sales, when we added sales to it, which was in 2020, there's just the the the pandemic in lockdown. That was when I thought, oh, do you know what? I'm not doing anything anymore. I'm you know, it's so easy. Running the business was so easy, I thought I'd do sales again. I used to really love doing sales. Um, I thought, let me do sales again so we open sales, and then we obviously got the benefit of using lifecycle the way at that time it was more kind of designed for, you know, it was actually um, you know, all sort of blogs and everything, the newsletters were all really driven towards sales, sales audience. Yeah. Um, and that's when that's when uh we started really sort of getting the better use out of it. Cool.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Well that's that I haven't I haven't actually said anything. Yeah, I know. Um so like because obviously we've been we've been I remember my early memories actually with you guys is actually I was coaching you guys, I don't even think you had video at the time on some of your laptops. I think it was just like Lloyd's Lloyd's one, Lloyd's two, Lloyd three, and I was trying to work out who the Pat, yeah, and who's Danny, like really confused.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Yeah.

Launching Lloyds And Early Expansion

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Um and then I've seen in the sort of last few years you've really sort of taken a real serious look at it, just being like, I just do a couple of sales, come bored, yeah, and you really sort of really jumped back into it, like videos, uh marketing strategies, done uh lead generation, yeah, totally websites, rebrand, yeah. Like you've come on our accelerator programme, you're really starting to really so why the re going from like I'll just do a couple of deals to now being actually like last few years. What was that what was the reason for that then?

SPEAKER_00 36:27

I think I think um for me personally, the the running the company had become boring. I wasn't really working at all. I just wasn't working, you know. I I I'd barely come in the office. Um and at my age at the time, which was just past 50, um, four or five years ago, um I kind of was thinking this this is not growing. But then I was looking back at the figures and it wasn't growing, it was just really stagnant. And there was no new valuations coming on from them or anything like that. And even when we started sales, it was really slow, it was a real slow burnout, it was really difficult to get leads to get for people to choose us to come on the market. Um, but just prior to that, the the decision to really kind of push myself into it was that it wasn't growing, and I thought, well, where you know, it's not enough. It's not enough for me to live the rest of my life the way I want to live the rest of my life. Um, it's not I don't feel proud of this anymore. It wasn't, you know, I felt proud of it in the early noughties. We we grew so quickly, we were so good. Um, and I thought, well, I'm not getting that vibe anymore. It's just it's just very mundane, it was just very kind of boring and easy, but it was no real progress. I couldn't see progress. And when I first started sales and doing sales and doing it on my own, I got to the point where I was looking at all the different new marketing techniques and speaking to you and your and doing your training program and looking at what life cycle, other things lifecycle could offer that we weren't even utilizing. You know, we weren't even doing anything, we weren't branding, we weren't doing any of the stuff that we've learned this year on the Accelerate programme, none of it. And you just thought, well, we're paying for this amazing package that that's can run our business virtually and can generate and help create leads and um all of this stuff, and we're just not using it. And it just felt stupid. And I thought, if I'm gonna do this, I need to really, really sort of go into it. And I and I and I knew the company needed to be rebranded. We was we were called, we still are called Lloyd's Residential Property Services Limited. That's our official um name, but I I didn't feel that that was good for Google algorithm. You know, we needed to be the state agents rather than well, I won't call us Lloyd's state agents because then you know it's in the name, it's in the it's in the wording. Um and the and the branding and everything. Just felt dated. The the website felt dated. It didn't I didn't feel like when I was going out to do valuations, I didn't feel credible. I think that was the thing. I didn't feel like a credible option for someone. I thought, you know, why why? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. And I thought that we've got to utilise these these things that are at our fingertips, you know, if we learn about this system, if we, you know, um go on these programs, if we if we retrain ourselves to compete in the market now, like your um EAX uh and annual sort of uh things that you're gonna do sold together. Um you're you're listening to you and the passion that both of you have, and you on stage, and telling us about what's coming, what's round the corner, and you're and I'm thinking, well, um you're you know more than me. I don't I'm out of it. I'll I've been out of it for a long time. I don't know what's going on, I'm not technical at all, I'm not social media minded at all. Um, you know, it I it it's just I just didn't know what I was talking about. But you clearly, in my opinion, you clearly did. So I thought I'm just gonna follow your advice.

SPEAKER_05 40:11

Go with let's go with that. Yeah, and so what have you seen? Have you seen much change in the company then since you started doing all that stuff?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Within the last year, particularly, and and and move and sort of even even as I look ahead, I just think it's so exciting. I think it's it's just we we're geared up now, you know, we're we're doing the right things, we're doing social media posts. I'm doing social media posts and with guidance, lots and lots and lots of guidance. Um but we're doing the right things and I and I feel that we're now competing. And when I do evaluation now, I feel back to are you quite cocky, like I used to be when I first got into business. Well, I felt I felt that I was the best. If you don't go with me, you're missing out because I am the best.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Um, and whereas when we first went back into a state agency, I used to feel like say, like, why would you want to be able to do that?

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Sorry, I mean so on the third option. Sorry, I've done some of your electron by pressing your doorbell.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

Yeah, um wasted your electron rather. Um yeah, and now I go in and I think it I'll back to feeling if you're gonna use me, you're on a really bad journey, you know. You're you the the agent you use hasn't got the tools, hasn't got The knowledge isn't as good as me, isn't reading the market properly, they're not going to get you the best price. I really feel confident that that that someone choosing another agent isn't going to get them the best price for their property. And for me, that is like sort of the pinnacle of the process.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

I think um when you're when you're proud with what you do, then it naturally oozes out into like you know the videos you're doing now, which is a first thing forever. Like when I first met you, you were very much brand led.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

And now with the rebirth, you're almost trying to make sure that people understand the why behind the brand. Yeah. Um and people in the face. Yeah, and the people in the face, and like, and you know, I remember you saying, I've got to get I've got to do this social media stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then now you're on camera and actually you're you're presenting very good polished videos. It's not not a case of oh shit, I've got to do this thing, you get your phone out and just take for the best.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

There's just there's actually a strategy that you're thinking about towards all of this, rather than just being in a stage and go, I've got to do this video stuff, am I just doing and wondering why it's not working or what the whole reason behind it all this?

SPEAKER_05 42:31

I think like even when we was doing the stuff um on the accelerator programme around brand with uh you know, you guys, Danny and everything, and it started to come to light that like it's about relationships with you guys. And I know that you know you could say, Oh, it's yeah, loads of estate agents would say that. But everyone does kind of say it, but everyone says it in their own way. Yeah. And the way that you were saying it, it just it was like something got discovered, and it was like, you know what, that is what it's all about. And even when I've spoken to you outside of here and stuff, and you can just feel that that's been rediscovered now, whereby like you were saying to me, like, yeah, go and see some people, and it's like, you know, maybe we can work together, maybe we can't. I don't know. This is what we do, this is how we like to work with people. If you want that, we can do something. If you don't, no problem. There's a load of other stages.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

I think I think to be fair, I think uh that this is credit to you two. I think you dragged that out of me. Uh, when we had meetings about why I was gonna do the accelerator program, why why I was gonna do a neural website, you were saying, What what makes you different? Like, why why should someone use you? And you do start thinking and thinking, well, you can't just say use myself just the best.

SPEAKER_03 43:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

You know, you literally be crazy not to use me. Why? Like, why why am I the best? What what's what what's different about it?

SPEAKER_05 43:49

What evidence? Who do you want?

SPEAKER_00 43:50

What better service are you gonna get, you know? And and you start to really kind of not digest it, really sort of nitpick exactly those reasons. Like, what is it about me, about our company? And I think again, it's being involved with it is being involved with life cycle. But I've said to you, life cycle isn't a CRM. It's it's a it's a a massive, it it feels like a massive organization with loads of branches off of it that covers everything to do with business. It's not just a CRM for estate agents. It doesn't that doesn't sum it up at all.

SPEAKER_05 44:26

Yeah, I guess iceberg as a whole, I guess, is kind of like that, you know, because we have our WhatsApp group as a you know that so much stuff goes on in that WhatsApp group, you get you get a bit dizzy with it sometimes, but so much gold in there. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And make you know the things that people share, the summits that you spoke about.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Pat um Pat basically goes for the WhatsApp, doesn't it? You said like I wait to a certain day and I scroll back through and I find the clickets, and then you're gonna go to the city.

Surviving The 2008 Crash

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Well, well I well because sometimes there's so many messages on there, so much, so many ideas and so much good content. I can't I struggle to go past this and just keep sending it to myself. Like sending snippets, and then again I'll have a tra I'll have a training discussion with Rob, and he'll go, You do know you can just go on here or you're in there.

SPEAKER_05 45:11

That's awesome. Um, so can you see now, like, I don't know, if there's an aesthetic out there that's maybe somewhere on that journey that you were like maybe they're back around, you know, that sort of 2016, 17 time. I don't know, they're feeling a bit lost with it, like some of the people in the office they've got they don't really want to get rid of, but they don't really know that they specif specifically bring in any extra money. And I don't know, what what advice would you give to that person who's just sort of a bit lost with the whole thing?

SPEAKER_00 45:47

I think I'd say take some time to just really think about what you're doing as a business and and look at look at each individual person and what they bring. Be honest with yourself, just sit there and actually think about talk talk to your partner about it, your business partner or your partner, um, and just something well, you know what I got to the point where when I realised I didn't need two people that me and my business partner Danny could do a better job than the two people we had doing it, and while I was sitting there scratching my ass for one of a better phrase, I'm paying someone a decent salary um to do the job worse than me. Yeah, and I actually think that was the words I said to Danny. So we're paying these two clowns to do the job worse than us. Then yeah, they're not they're not enhancing us as a company, you know. But there were one of one of the guys was videoed in a in a branded car, in a company branded car, screaming and shouting on his phone held to his ear whilst waiting at the traffic lights at Bethel Green Crossroads. Yeah. And and he and they posted on social media, and I was like, oh man.

SPEAKER_05 47:03

Yeah. But I'm paying you to bring my company down.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:09

And bring it down around my around my ears.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

So I think I think, I mean, they're they're they're kind of triggers, you know, they're they're they're kind of like pokes, right? Look, look what you're doing wrong here, you know, you know, obvious things like wake-up calls. Um, and I think if you just sit down and you really think about it, you you'll become more profitable just trimming the fat from the business, you know, just literally looking at it and going, that don't that person isn't needed, you know. I I can do it better.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

And has that freed up more more money to then reinvest in the things like yes, paid advertising, yes, actually getting someone to do the video stuff. 100% um.

SPEAKER_05 47:51

So none of those things are cheap. A lot of companies in that position wouldn't have thought, you know what, I'll go with I'll go with the life cycle system. Yeah. I'll go with a neuron website.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

I'll go with an accelerator program, right? So if you look at that, it's like crazy. You think about the you're saying I'm paying this person a uh to do a shittier job than me. Yeah. When actually, when you think about the money, reinvest that money, like that's in most agency, you think that's like the accelerator programme and a neuron website done in a lifecycle. Really, when you look at it.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

That's that's one of those guys you and you've said just them three things, and obviously we've done the accelerator program and the neuron website this year together when I was having a conversation with Mark about which one should I do first. Um, and we ended up doing both of them, but we'd done both of them because again, it was a no-brainer. And and and even now at the end of the year, you're just thinking I can't remember what you said about about a gap. But like you look, you you're going, why didn't we do this before? I don't do that. I don't go, why didn't I do this before? I've I've learned not to do that because there's no point looking back. Um, but you're just excited to look forward to think, I'm so glad I've done that. It was such a wise investment, it was such a a good decision, it was a a fundamentally brilliant decision to do both of those two things this year. Um because it it has enhanced the business, it it gets you talking about your business, it makes you it again makes you think, yeah, I am proud of this business. We do work hard and we are good at what we do, and and and you're and we're getting the tools to bring it forward to be, you know, to be a good thing for people that if they come across us, lucky then, yeah, you know, not not just when they find the right stuff.

SPEAKER_05 49:39

When they come to you now, it feels like they get the right feeling, the feeling that you wanted them to get. If they then make the inquiry, it's like half this job is kind of dumb. They know what they're getting. When I turn up, this isn't just going to be about fees or whatever. There's a reason that they made an inquiry now, you know. I think it's important what you said there as well, because without without dragging yourself out of the business on to focus on some of those things, just the days just go where you talk about viewings. You talk about cancelled appointments, you talk about the day-to-day stuff, actually. You don't just go like, right, let's let's stop and talk about branding.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

No, that's right. And it it gets lost in translation because you're just going about your daily routine and you're not really thinking or forward thinking or or anything. You're not you're not even um analysing what you're actually doing, what your even your purpose is within the business. Yeah, you know, you make us question what is my purpose? What am I actually doing? You know, forget everybody else. What do I do? What am I bringing?

SPEAKER_02 50:34

So it's a whole different marketing meeting as well. Because like marketing used to be if you get into courts and you go, right, what's going to be designed with a leaflet?

SPEAKER_03 50:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Should we put free valuation or no free valuation? Yeah. Or number should we come on to put a dog on it or do a house on it? Yeah, yeah. All right, 20,000 a month for that. Let's bring into action. Just do it, let's bring into action, then just throw it out. Whereas now, obviously, you're like you were saying, you know, uh Pat's working with a lady that's scripting his scripts out for his houses based on all the stuff, and then he's then utilising that in his videos. So rather than just going, Oh, it's very much I'm selling it. Yeah, I mean, it's a whole process with that.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Well, even the even the again, the stuff I've learned from mixing with the people on the accelerated program as well as being on the accelerated programme and the experts that are leading the the day's training. Um I now do video with someone filming. I don't do the the um the gimbal and I don't walk down the street. And I know some guys still do that, and I was never massively comfortable with it. Um, but now she's she's on board, she came on board and came down for one half a day and filmed me and told me go there, stand there, walk towards me, you know, go go say this, turn round, I'll film you going in, open the door. You know, like you can't do that. You can do it with a gimbal, but it doesn't look as good or as polished, I don't think, for me, um, in those videos. So, and and again, it's um it's the don't compromise on on a commitment to doing something. So I I've because I've got the the social media social media manager now saying you've got to give me three bits of content a week, I can't not give up three bits of content a week. It's not negotiable. It's I've got to give it three, so I've got to go out the office, I've got to take someone with me to film me. I can do it on the gimbal's state, but yeah, I prefer to do it the other way. Um and and also then you you can check the script and you you got more hands, you know what I mean, to sort of check everything, what will what I say, and then like go and just get being taken until you're happy.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

One um one of the things before we'd let you let you go part, um a couple of months ago you were we had one of the sessions at the workshop, and it was quite a point at the moment where I re I it was a real nice breakthrough, I think, for you. You you were like you had the session, you analyzed it, and you realised like all you guys are doing a lot of random admin stuff and then you were running around, yeah, and you realised like you could have given it to someone else. Yeah. And then that meant free job some time. So like go through that process, because there's a lot of owners out there who are still running around trying to do it all, yeah. I'm not necessarily understood like what they could be reinvesting their time if they if they worked out like you know their tasks they've got to do. So like go through the process of like, what was you like before? What was you like afterwards?

Lean Team, Back To Lettings Basics

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Yeah. Um again, I I think before the program I was definitely just going through the motions of of working in my business, not running my business, working in my business, coming in and doing my day job um to help the business. But the growth is the problem. I think if you're if you're working in the business, it's difficult to concentrate on the growth of the business. And the accelerated program with each session that we done kept leading me to the place where it was actually your it was your um session, Rob. It was uh it happened a couple of times before, but it was really the session that we had with you that made me think, I know what I knew what I had to do, I just wasn't doing it. I wasn't recognising it, I wasn't accepting that I needed to do it. And because we're a small team, that was part of the problem. It was me having to say to my two business partners, one of which had been in business with me for 25 years, we've got to restructure the business, I've got to be the lead, and you two have got to be underneath me. You two have got to do these more you know basic sort of daily tasks. You've got to do these jobs because we haven't got the money and we haven't got um, people 40 people for the city. No, we we we we can't go and get two people so that because then they'll be sitting there twiddling their phones. You know, if they're not doing the now do, they wouldn't have anything to do. What's the point of that? It's not growing the business, is it? It's and it was recognising that from that session, it was thinking, right, I need this is the time these are the roles that exist in that company. That's it, we can't make roles up, you know. These are what we need. So literally the next day we had the meeting. I said, right, we need this meeting, and we had a meeting where I said, right, I'm gonna run the company and I'm gonna do this, and these are gonna be my roles, and I'm gonna do listings, I'm gonna chase listings. I'm gonna stop chase I'm gonna stop looking for new listings. That's gonna be your job. You're gonna do that now. I'm not gonna do it, I haven't got time for it. I'm gonna get a social media market manager. We got one. I'm gonna do the video, I'm doing the video, you know. I I'm gonna I I sat down, I sat down and worked out what I can and should be doing and what I shouldn't. Well, importantly, what I shouldn't be doing. And there was a lot that I shouldn't be doing.

SPEAKER_02 55:46

And and how was that received and agreeing?

SPEAKER_00 55:48

Brilliantly, yeah. Absolutely brilliantly. Because because they've been on the same journey as me. They came on the accelerator program with me, which was another brilliant thing about that program, is that I could bring one or two people with me, and I brought them with me so they could see what I was going to be learning, what I was gonna be finding out, what I was gonna need to do, and them to understand what I was gonna need to do.

SPEAKER_05 56:15

There's a great analogy of that in some way. I've used it before, I think, haven't I? Whereby like, you know, if you if you were sitting watching the fox chase the rabbit, like the fox does all these amazing moves whereby like it's it looks like it's breaking its back to chase this rabbit all round these logs and all this sort of stuff. But then if if you couldn't imagine if you couldn't see the rabbit, fox would just look like he was off his face. And you so you've got to let the team see the rabbit. Yeah. And your team got to see the rabbit, they were like, this is awesome. But imagine if they hadn't been on the course, it'd just been like Patrick's gone off off on what's about could my arc and now saying he's eye-minded.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

That really is a great manager. You've got now see the rabbit. Yeah, yeah, that is and that is what's happened, and it makes it it makes those conversations easy. You know, it makes them easy because it's not I'm not explaining why. I'm just saying we're gonna do this. Yeah. You know why. Yeah, yeah. Don't have to waste time talking about the why. You know, it's easy, it's brilliant, and it's and it's and that's what's exciting about the future. Even though at the moment the market is is quiet, it's flat, the budget's coming, December's coming. It's you know, it's a time to, you know, you caught 50-50. Do I try and push a client to this now? Do I try and say, hold on, actually, let's go.

Listener Subscribe Reminder

SPEAKER_02 57:28

I think I think in those markets are the the the ones where agents you know have their pants down and everyone can see what's happening. You know what I mean? Like Yeah, when the tide goes out, you can see her swimming. Yeah, exactly. And I and I think and that's where the differentiator happens.

SPEAKER_05 57:42

You can tell from this side of the fence that something special's being built. Yeah, you can see it quite easily. You know, it's not always as easy to see when you're on the inside and you've got, you know, you're worrying about like profit and loss and cash flow and you know, pol politics and all of that sort of stuff, but on the outside is a lot easier to look across and go, like, the Lloyds that I look at now is like a completely different company to the Lloyds that you mentioned that we worked with when it was just letting back in 2017, you know, the tools and just not using half of that because it's not really for us.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

I I'd even say 18 months two years ago, I would really say that I think a massive awe about improvement and moving forward has probably come on predominantly in the last 12 months. The understanding, I think we've like you said, we were talking about stuff, wasn't really doing it properly, wasn't really implementing it, wasn't really, you know, following through with the ideas and the implementation of the things we needed to do. Um, but in the last 12 jobs particularly, everything's we've we've gone, we've got to do that, we've got to do that, and we and we're doing it and we're committing and we're and we're getting the rewards now, and we're seeing the progress. Yeah, love it, love it. Okay, yeah. Thanks Pat for coming. Yeah, appreciate that. Thanks very much for inviting me.

SPEAKER_04 58:59

It's uh being by thanks for listening to this Estate Agency X podcast. Can you make sure that you're actually subscribed to this podcast channel if you liked the content? Uh it helps us massively to get better guests, and it just helps us generally. So you might think you're subscribed, but just have a double check, whatever your um podcast platform of preference is, that you're actually subscribed, and then that way we can continue to grow the channel and get better and better guests for you.