Breaking the Barrier Before the Doorbell (with Nigel and Luke Wharrad)

Most valuations start cold.

In “Breaking the Barrier Before the Doorbell,” Nigel Wharrad and his son Luke explain how Town & City win instructions before they even arrive.

From ignoring video marketing to landing instructions from a single 60-second clip, this episode explores how visibility builds trust before the valuation appointment.

They also discuss:

• The shift from listing everything to selective growth
• Why AI in estate agency should remove admin, not empathy
• How brand clarity reduces portal dependency
• And what modern independent agency leadership requires

If you’re an estate agency owner rethinking growth, marketing or AI, this conversation will sharpen your thinking.

Listen now and lead differently.

Leading Estate Agents of the World – Founding Members Launch

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If you'd like to be considered for the launch event, register here

https://estateagencyx.co.uk/leadingestateagentsoftheworld

This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Meet Nigel And Luke

SPEAKER_03 0:00

So in this episode of a stay in six, I'm with Nigel and Luke from Town and City, father and son. Nigel actually has also a business partner as well. We discussed both of their journeys into a state agency with Nigel obviously being around for about 25 years working in corporate and independent and why he set up his business and then bringing Luke into it, where they see data going, where they see AI, where they see uh development of their brand. So if you're looking at um an agency out there that you're considering about brand rechange, how to find people, how to work with on video, this is a great episode that I reckon we should listen to.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Estate entity X, the UK's number one Estate Entity podcast discussing the future of Estate Encity, entrepreneurship and business. Host Mark Burger and Rob Brady.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

So Nigel, Luke, uh welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Thanks very much.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Uh for anyone listening and watching out there, just a bit of intro from you, Nigel, maybe first about your background, what you got here today.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Yeah, no problem. Um I'm Nigel Warren. Um co-founder of Town and City Homes, uh, one of the owners. And I've been in the industry 20 odd years, 24, 24, I don't know. You lose count, don't you? Um started off in a large corporate, one of the biggest, or the biggest at the time. Um went through years of that. I was there 10 years, um, ran several different branches for them, uh, then uh moved over to an uh the larger, one of the largest independents at that time uh to go into Lettins. Um, did a few years there, and then decided to set up Town and City Homes.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

And how long has Town and City Homes been?

SPEAKER_04 1:55

So this is our 13th year, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Yeah, yeah. And that's and Luke? So I joined uh 13 years ago. So it was about just over seven years ago now, straight from school. Um he didn't want me to join and start. He said, do something else in fucking this industry.

Corporate Training Vs Human Service

SPEAKER_04 2:19

No, no, no. I I didn't mind him coming into the industry, but I wanted him my choice, I wanted him to, as I did, I think it was a silly really bad. Well, there's a logic behind it. I wanted him to try go into corporate first, get the structure, systems, yeah. The systems, the training, because the training is good, um, and then come over if he wanted to, into Tennessee.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Yeah, I was it. I'm only doing it with dad. That was the only thing I wanted to do. Um yeah, so and what was your interest like? Did you have any interest at school or is there anything particular wise you thought um that you were I've had people in the past where they were like, I actually thought about doing this, but I actually decided that you know university wasn't for me or school wasn't for me. Although I had this particular interest, but I know probably you surround yourself around property with you in that environment, you'd naturally pick up as a child, don't you? It was like whenever I went to dad's on a weekend, it was just because that's when you started with Deep. It was just constant calls in the car. So you'd hear about these houses, then when you got to that 16, 17 year old, then you had these one million pound houses and all that sort of stuff, you thought that sounds good. Um, but my mum was an agent as well, so it was always really gonna go that way, and uh yeah, it was that's how I got into it. I wanted to do something sporting, wasn't fit enough. So second choice was stage now. I went for school, but just wasn't for I just breezed through, like literally breezed through, did the bare minimum and it doesn't reflect now, I'll tell you that. It's eight stars. Focused focused on something like you know, I read something the other day, it was like uh I think Simon Simon was talking about, he said as as I was uh a boy in school and my work life, I was always told that I was unfocused. And he said for a lot of the period of time I actually felt and believed that I was unfocused until I actually found something that I was actually enjoyable that actually could focus on. And I realised it was just I was unfocused on because I wasn't interested in it, and it got me focused on the stuff that actually drives me. Yeah, um, so uh Nigel, let's unpick uh back to your agencies. You said you started at corporate. What was a corporate you started at? Countrywide. Countrywide. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Once a countrywide was yeah, that was at the time. Um it was one of the big selling pitches, obviously. We've got over 1,300 branches across Europe, because we had something in France, probably one office.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

Um and yeah, so that was And was you was it Man and Co, Countrywide, or Bearstones or Gear? Bear to Eves was where I started.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Yeah. And then went over to Man. Yeah. And Mann countrywide in those days.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

And in took 10 years, where and where where was that where was that location?

SPEAKER_04 5:13

So Bearsto Eves was Ashford. Yeah. Um then my first branch which I ran was Stroud, and then went on to Gravesend, Sidcart. Uh back to Gravesend, back to Stroud. I did that little triangle. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Um and what did you going back to what you said about Luke, what did you learn in those days that you sort of took forward?

Jumping To Independence

SPEAKER_04 5:38

From yeah, so uh uh the good things were the the the compliance side in terms of the countrywide training. Uh what you could sue, what you could say, what you couldn't say, um the laws surrounding the estate agency. I thought that that part of the training was really good. And the structure. Um but then the things I didn't like were the, I suppose the way we got taught to sell. Um is probably the reason I think we I set up my own company was because of I think there's a better way, and I think there's a more honest way, and I think there's a a more legitimate way of doing the job rather than I don't want to tie them all with the same brush because it's not fair, but it's almost unethical to think the way that is it more precious telling. Yeah, massively so. Um and there wasn't really any care about, you know, people. Yeah. It was just about numbers. That that number there, you've got your targets that that week, that month, that you know, quarter, whatever it is that you've got. And you didn't hit it. If you didn't hit it that, you'd be in the naughty boys club down the basement trying to um correct that figure rather than you know, let's work a way of how do we get the best result looking at it for the customer's point of view as well. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It was just literally, it was just all about numbers.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

And and you were there 10 years, over all 10 years, you said. Yeah. Yeah. And then you went to an independent, yeah. Um, to what was a large independent you were for? Heart. A heart, so yeah, yeah. Um, and how was the experience transitioning from corporate to independent agency? Because that like, yeah, when I used to employ team people from that, you'd either have some that were like entrepreneurial spirit, yeah, who just got it, yeah, and others like I just couldn't grasp like the hustle that was in where do I get listings from? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They usually come to me, like, where are these market appraisals? You know, go and find them.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

Yeah, yeah. So uh as much as Heart had uh still quite a big reputation, right? Yeah, but um in terms of what I learned from coming from corporate, uh countrywide corporate to part independent was the speed things could happen and the freedom that you had to make individual changes to what you're doing at branch level. Um countrywide were too big to be able to allow that to happen. I assume that's the way it goes with that type of industry, but or that type of size of company, should I say. But heart decisions were made quickly. So that's what I learned. If you make decisions quickly, things move quicker in whatever you do it, whether it be marketing, you want to do something different, you want to do some try something new, you can do it. There's a budget, off you go.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

And then and then So you you had your experience. So and you said the the at heart you were let-ins. Yes. And did you do any sales in there? No, not with heart, no. Uh but countrywide sales? Countrywide was all sales. So okay, that's really nice actually, because it's quite nice to have them. God, it's going from sales to let ins. I know.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

And the only reason I didn't was because the my my regional manager and director at the time moved too hard to expand the letting sum. And then they invited the managers over to go with them. And we were me and one of our colleagues, we were the first ones to go up, and then more and more and more, and as we were growing throughout Kent and sort of outside Essex and North London. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

And because I I was only chatting to a friend the other day, and he's in Lettins, and he was talking about I'd like to get into sales a bit more, but see, he works for a larger business, not to say who he is. Um and I was saying, like, he said, but I need experience. And I said, like, you've got a wealth of experience because you do Lettins valuations already. Yeah. And actually, like the process isn't really different. It's just different what you say in the world. Yeah, exactly. It's different only like the services are not three types of services and just sell it and that's it. Unless you try this a package, but like, yeah, instead of a thousand pounds a month, it's like a hundred grand, whatever it might be. Yeah. Um so so you're obviously uh in the independent, and then you you what what what way what made you frustrated? So you've done you said you were with Hart for ten ten years? No, no, no, Hart was only a couple of years. Okay, so Hart was a couple of years, so you've done an independent tour. What yeah why did you go fuck this? I'm gonna do it my own.

Growing Fast Then Right-Sizing

SPEAKER_04 11:20

I think because it was it was still the same sort of message coming out of that, even though they were an independent, there's they're a large machine, if you like. Um so it's still the same sort of message coming out as the corporate. It was just you could adapt quicker. Um so there was less less focus on the customer, more focus on those those figures. So that didn't change too much. It was just the speed they could act on it. And I just think I didn't like it, I didn't like the way it was done, I didn't like who they were trying to make you to become, which is a little robot in that little army, and you know, no disrespect to anyone that's out there on on in that field at the moment because there's lots of good ones, but how I felt was certainly where they were trying to what they were trying to make be didn't suit the way my personality or what I wanted to be. And hence why I thought, let's do it myself at the cat. My god, that was a big thing.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Yeah, I was about to say, so what uh so how old how old were you then, Luke? Well, when I joined. No, no, it's in like when when your dad took that. How old was you? 13. So you saw your dad go from like Yeah, we've no no at the same time. Yeah, yeah. Uh so so like go back to that too. So what what did life look like for you at that point? So you had Luke was 13. Um Yeah. You're working at Ashley High Street right now. Yeah. So you could come in at lunch, see ya. And did and and and so um and obviously you got an another business partner, so like how did that so bless you?

SPEAKER_04 13:08

When I was in countrywide, I headlined him and created him from my biggest competitor. Uh, because he was their top salesperson. And I thought, yeah, I want him over here. It was my first branch that I just started running. Um, first branch manager job. And I quickly found out who the big guns were in the town. We were way down the bottom of the pecking order. I thought, right, I need somebody that's got that sales he type. So he phoned in, I spoke to him one day, phoned in the office looking for something else. I said, you need to come down and see me. So anyway, he came down and seen me and I interviewed him. I said, yeah. That's how I meet him. So um and we stayed close throughout the next few years. Um, he was doing his thing, I was doing my thing, because we all we separated. He went off and did something else because countrywide is definitely not in his DNA model, which me like he's not built for uh that type of corporate machine. Um and uh he went off and did his thing with different agents. I went off and did my thing with still with countrywide and then it was heart. Um and we stayed connected and then we were chatting about it and we said, yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 14:35

Let's do it. And what was the what was the was our decided moment where you just thought you got in one day for?

SPEAKER_04 14:41

I'd I'd been thinking about it for years, years and years and years before um and I discussed it with different people as well, and it never quite sat. It didn't feel right, it didn't you know when the energy just kind of fizzles out of something, yeah, and that's what's happened throughout the time because I thought I don't want to do it by myself.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:05

Um I think I need somebody in the room to bounce it always. Um so yeah, it and and it never fizzled out. That energy was still there throughout the conversations we were having, and the momentum was picking up speed, and it was getting quicker and quicker, decisions were being made very quickly. What do we do? How do we do it? What's the next step? How quickly can we get out of here? Onto the next bit, what are we going to call ourselves? All those decisions were suddenly being sped up, and we were nailing it. So it just happened, and it happened very quickly, which was good, because I think if it happens too slow, you have second thoughts. Oh, 100%, yeah. And you go, Oh, I wonder if I can. You have you've slightly self-doubt. I'd gone through this so many different times, you know, and but at that point, it was just all happened so fast, you thought that this is great. There's only one route to go now, and that is let's let's finalise it to it.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

And how how what was it like working, seeing that like 13-year-old boy seeing how he died? It was just constant. It was like, as soon as he picked us up, it was deep cooling. They'd always have calls all the time in the car, like going from one place to the other, and then it would be calls with the vendors because it was just them two at the time. So it was just whatever they had to do, they had to do it right now. And that was 2012. 2012? That was 2013. Yeah, 2013 we opened. Yeah. And so did you traditionally go straight into an office in High Street?

Luke’s Start And Early Lessons

SPEAKER_04 16:48

Did you No, no, we did we We always thought about office in High Street, but because I was adamant that it wasn't needed, um and the online agents had just started to come through, but also I'd run offices and no nobody comes into the office anymore. So I thought, okay, we don't need one. So we went into uh Regis Service Offices, um, and that's where we sat for 11 years. Eleven years. We hadn't just moved them last year. So yeah, we sat there in 11 years and um we we started off in a in a in a shoebox office and it was like really small. And then we as we expanded, we went in the next size office, the next size office, the next size office. And it it became really expensive as well.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Uh and and that to how many people did you expand up to in that period of time?

SPEAKER_04 17:51

So the max we had at any one time was eight. Eight, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

Um, but it was we expanded quickly. Yeah. As I I think I've when I've spoken speak to a lot of people that start, their first year goes mad. Second year they do, you know, well as again, and suddenly you start and start employing people, doing something, uh, expanding. And that's what happened with us. We went crazy. Um, and then second year was full momentum, everybody ran in and we thought, right, we need to we need to start filling the gaps. And because we're at busting point, you can't physically do the job in the hours we have. You know, we're uh working till 10, 11 o'clock at night, six, seven days a week, and it was just crazy. You just couldn't fill it in. So we started recruiting, started building uh uh I I in my infinite wisdom had a genius idea that said let's only recruit um sort of manager level staff so that in my mind it sounded it sounded great, right? Because the customer experience, and this is what I thought, the customer experience was gonna be the best because they're the most, you know, knowledgeable, they've been in the industry to a certain point and in that long enough to be able to uh know just about everything they're running branches or have run branches already. Um not even thinking about cost or anything like that, wouldn't it? That didn't really I I knew it was there, obviously, but I knew what we had to do. But when you're growing blind faith, I think um overrides your uh uh sensibleness, I think. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

So um when you start from zero and you're uh going up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't think uh downturn or no there's no every yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:52

The only way is up, and that that we were in we were definitely in that zone. Yeah, definitely in that zone. And we s I I couldn't see a negative. I just genuinely couldn't. So um that's what we did, and obviously then market changed, situations changed, things got really, really hard. And obviously the the cost on a monthly basis was horrendous uh because we'd expanded the office and the the wage cost and everything. So we'd added in you know the top package on everything, you know, right move, all these other things. So you you your your cost per month was just astronomical, and then suddenly you start losing money. And then you're losing money for a few months, and you're thinking, hang on a minute, this little buffer we've sort of built up, that's starting to eat away. Um, so we need to do something about this if we can't see a change. Yeah. And that was a real like because we'd also employed people that we knew. Um, they weren't just randoms, they were people we knew. That was quite possibly one of the hardest times I've had to go through when you're talking to um somebody you know and have worked with or or have worked alongside or worked in the same company as or whatever. And you're saying, no, I'm really sorry.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Yeah, this is not and and sometimes that that is that process is even drawn out a little bit longer than what you you would be normally because Yeah, because the guilt. It's the vested vested interest. Families are broken bread property at some point together. Um and that must have been sort of tough. So so you went so you had eight, and what did you end up going down to?

SPEAKER_04 22:26

So we went down to we ended up with three and then well no four because of Luke. Because we also had to just take it on Luke.

From Listings At Any Price To Fit-Right Marketing

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Let's get cheap labour in. Yeah, I was already and he's asking him. I'm waiting to go, I'm ready to go. So how old were you when you then joined then? 18. Straight from school. I finished finished uh sixth foot. Just went straight in. And when and from the from the seeing your dad obviously doing the hustle on the phone, speaking to people, doing that put as a young child and and then coming into it, uh from a from a younger generation, did you walk in there and thought it was all good, or did you s did you think like, Well, how why are you doing this, Dad? I walked in I walked into that. Yeah, that's what I walked into. I mean getting rid of these people. Behind the scenes of a feeling it. Yeah, but I knew it was leading up to it. So I think everyone in the office sort of did. And um I was sitting with them. And because these guys were I don't know what these guys were doing, they were at home watching TV or something in the deep. It was just me and the other guys. So I was a bit sounded really bad, isn't it? Basically, you go to work and we're gonna not come to the office. Fully knowing that you're like you're you're the you're the son of the owners. I'll tell you first and last year. Yeah, everyone is doing your fucking back. But it was it was walking into it. It was it was just I loved the feeling of everyone on the phone doing something and um speaking to I was always being a people person. And like when they were constantly on the phone, that's what I wanted. I wanted people to call me constantly. So I'd be like, if someone was, if I was with someone, I'd go, oh sorry, I'll take the call. It was like an ego thing. Um but I really liked seeing that growing up because it was just always business talk and how can we get to this and how can we do this? Problem solving. Yeah, I didn't mind being in the car listening to it. Normal, like whenever we see like the girl, your your daughters are my sisters, they're always on their phone, like they don't care about like what's going on in the car when they don't realise he's dealing with like a 900 grand house that's gonna fall through in the next 30 seconds if he doesn't save it. But I enjoyed that, and I think before going through, that's all I wanted to all I wanted to do was just make the calls, talk to people, show these houses. But your initial question was, yeah, I could see I could be better, 100%. Like And what's your like what was your first I think sounds weird, but like what was your first week like? Because obviously, like you've got your dad next to you what was the first week that you wanted to stamping on my foot? Um what did you what was your role like when you when you said right dad I want to I wanna be a part of this, I want to help you, I wanna I want to go on that journey with you. I've seen five years worth of behind the scenes of stuff. Um your dad's obviously going to you don't do it. Go and yeah go and have a decent career somewhere else that's not gonna leave me let me lose my hair. You've got to fall in a hair. I was already looking ahead of what I could be doing. So what was it what was it like for maybe the first week, day, first month for you? The first week was it was just getting to know the system and all that sort of stuff. Then it was shadowing a couple of viewings, and because we went through what we went through, the it was like there's only me to do those viewings. Yeah. So that's like your second month in, and I don't know if people do it normally, uh but I was doing like open days in like first month because it was nothing to do it. But it was I really enjoyed going from you'd probably say it as well, like the bottom of where we were is probably the worst it was. Yeah, yeah. No, definitely enjoying it going up and up and up, doing the open days, getting used to it, and like there's nowhere you can go. Yeah, you're back to it's just me at that open day. Yeah. And um, like an 18-year-old boy, just you know, doesn't really know too much, but was wanting to learn, and you know, you have to go through the really, really tough times. Like, I just remember once it was the most embarrassing thing ever. It was about a boiler. I knew nothing about boilers. That's the only time I would never know everything about property was because of this question. They said, is there a combi boiler? I had no idea what combi boiler was. And it's the only time I was gonna get caught not knowing what something was after that stage, so I would read up about everything before. So I rang the vendor saying you got combi boiler. Yeah, I've got combi boiler, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 27:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

So they ask again, is there a tank with it? So obviously these are first-time buyers, they don't know a lot themselves. They walking was looking at me, going, Well, there's not gonna be a tank with that, because it's a combi boiler. Uh let's have a look. Not sure. So I ring the seller up again. There's not gonna be a tank with it, Lou.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

What are you talking about about?

Social Media, TikTok, And Trust

SPEAKER_03 27:33

And I've never been so red faced looking through a tank for a combi boiler. And they're they're going, well, there shouldn't be a combi boiler. So after that, it was just a case of knowing everything about the property every time I went to the property, because I was an 18-year-old, no facial hair, nothing. You know, I looked youthful. So as soon as there was a question that was going to be posed to me, I was not gonna know it. But with uh back and obviously dad putting the training in and all that sort of stuff, it was just I didn't ever want to feel like that again. I remember I remember having uh a guy come work for me, and um he did like viewings and stuff. And then we came back and it was a ballet property, and I said it's gonna be painted for hour. And the land I'm gonna do it magnolia for out at the time. And he went, he came back and he went, yeah, I said to him it's gonna be painted Mongolia for hour. And I was like, Mongolia? And he was like, Mongolia. I was like, Mongolia's like, yeah, the paint colour. I was like, Mick Magnolia's our mate. The last six months, every time I said he'd been painting, I've been telling him it's Mongolia. And I've been mostly thinking, what's this new in colour? Mongolia colour, I'm like what's his colour. Then they come from in his light, it's like Magnolia, Mothia. Um, it's good, it it it but the amount of even when I've gone out and done viewings um on the with landlords and I go around and see someone and then you're asking the questions and you're thinking you ain't got a clue. And I think like the the bit is like really being honest, really. I don't no, I don't know that. I don't know that question, but I'll find out of here. Like the only thing I can guarantee is I find that Leon wants to do it, but I can't guarantee that I'd know it now. Um I didn't think I could get away with that though, being how young I was. But yeah, I think that it comes with um yeah, I mean, as you said, like 18-year-old lad, naturally you have like a certain part of like I've got to say to prove. I need to know.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

I need to all yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

Um and I I think we take a passion about that though as well, in terms of the knowledge about the house. Because I think that's really important that whoever's shown somebody round, they know pretty much everything about that property. Yeah. And it's not hard to find out. No. It really isn't as an 18-year-old lad, it's a bit different. Yeah. Because even when you've got little information books that tells you what it is, you're not taking it in. Yeah, you're not taking it in. And you don't even know what half of it is. Yeah. But I think uh as time's gone on, obviously, as he's learnt as well, and certainly for anyone of an age that's bought a house, and he has now, obviously. But you get to learn all those things, don't you? But it's it's key, absolutely key, I think. I don't think you can just send anyone out to view a house.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

And and so um you've been down there for six years, so what what does town and city look like six years ago to probably today?

SPEAKER_01 30:42

So different.

SPEAKER_03 30:43

In what in what way? The way we structure ourselves from the get-go, like I think when we start, or when you guys started in, when I joined, you still had that little tweaks of corporate. Because it was still up, we're just trying to get listings to pay the bills type of thing, to get anything on at any price and just get it on. Whereas now we sort of pick what we wanna and how we want to put it on, and the marketing is just everything we throw into it. Like the social media side, we never did that back then. I think if we started back then when I first joined, which, you know, an 18-year-old should probably be on social media doing all that stuff, but I wasn't really into it. Is the brand now, we were just speaking about before the gap, the the brand now would be like so higher because you'd have so much behind you. But whether social media comes into it now and the marketing and how we structure it, where we put clients first and all that sort of stuff, it's gone from zero to a hundred because we've made sure everything in the background is working where they're so stress-free. Whether it's WhatsApp routes with them as soon as they instruct, or whether it's doing social media before a half property goes live, like we do a week off off the market to try and build up that clientele. And you know, we sell some not off, but some do go. Um and then it's TikTok, which is absolutely huge right now, is what we've really got into at the minute, especially myself. I was gonna say, do the walkthroughs. Um people love them and hate them. There's no you get good and bad, and I love them flying to the bad comments. It's always people from up north going, how is this 300 grand? Yeah. Oh, yeah. In my street in Liverpool, yeah, yeah. 60 grand.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Um okay, so um you've gone obviously the social media route, so you started to go down that route.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Uh you've gone for a sort of a rebrand as well uh recently. Um you're investing more into AI and technology. So like what what changed from maybe you joining in the last six years to right, we've got uh not just be a state agent anymore and just do the same as what you've probably done for 20 years. I must be honest, it's you guys. And just hope for that. Yeah. But before us, it's never us. Yeah. Before, it's the it's the step that you guys take. Yeah. So so where did you where did you see the industry moving? Why why did that why did that sort of come on the radar and you start to look thinking, I wish we should think about doing things a little bit differently.

Video Reluctance To Content Momentum

SPEAKER_04 33:35

Yeah, I think that was always my side of the business. So I've always wanted to try and be ahead of whatever was coming. Whether it be the the photography, you know, because there was a lot of agents, certainly when I started Tanner City, that were still using you know small digital cameras or and and they weren't they didn't have a wide angle lens. Not I don't mean a fish eye lens, because I hated those, but just a wide angle length. So it captured the whole room, right? Not a ward picture, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we always tried to be ahead of everything in that way, uh and then trying to make our systems faster or better for us and uh our image to look as as as we are, I suppose, as forward thinking. Try and make all of that wrap up. And I was always looking at all different things to make that work. And then what I noticed was the competition catching up with uh certainly the marketing side of things. So everybody then suddenly got better quality photography, or they started to use professionals, or however that came about. So suddenly then I was sitting there thinking, okay, now what can we do to then take this that next step forward? And I I've always looked around at things like this. And it it at that stage, that's when um I found obviously I don't know, it's not but I know it's when I'm promoting you guys, but that's when I found obviously iceberg last time. And but what what was interesting at that point, as an independent, a small family business, you're on your own, right? And you're in a town with 20, 30, however many other state agents that nobody wants to talk to you, nobody uh wants to help you in any way, shape, or form, even if it's just for a chain check, you know, that it's it's us and them. Uh doesn't matter how nice you are, they will not talk to you in in a sensible way. It just doesn't happen, it's fierce, isn't it? Our industry, and it's that's the way it's been ever since well, it wasn't, but then I think the crash changed that. So it then became fierce. But so to then become part of a group of like-minded people who want to help, want to better themselves and improve the standards, as well as having a you know, an effective uh um CRM database uh nurturing. It that was a big part of it for me. Um because I felt then I had some I had others to then learn from and help and share experiences and go through that. So that was that that to me was kind of half and half whether it's gonna the sales pitch of you know, whether what we were gonna do next, that sounds like a fantastic idea. So I just wow, they come together. Oh my god. So and then that led to just a understanding, a bigger picture of what we do with the people that we get in and how we look after them. And you can call it nurturing, you can call it journey, you can call it whatever you like, but to me it's about how you're looking after the people that contact you in any way, shape, or form, right? First of all, you've got to get them to contact you, but how you look after them after that, that's what this system and that's what this develops, and that's how we've been able to then see how we move forward and grow.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

And so so what so and was it that you realising how you uh bring people to then use you? Do you is that what you find in like what you're saying there was like uh we realised that uh the game of influencing is gonna need to was gonna be the next move. So now you can just do decent photography.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

You need to be in you need to be something you need to be something else that influences and people to understand you before they've even set for the front door.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

Is that is that See, I saw that years before we met you guys, right? I saw it and I ignored it. Yeah. And you know, that's what I did.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Yeah, because it's gonna counter this work because I know it's happening, but it's on my doorstep yet.

SPEAKER_04 38:26

I didn't want to do it.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:28

I d I genuinely didn't want to do it. I still don't want to do it. But I know it's the it it's an effective way of getting your message across and showing who you're who you are, genuinely, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:41

So especially when you're in a town full of like 20 other 30 brands that just.

Where AI Helps And Where It Shouldn’t

SPEAKER_04 38:44

How'd you get that? How do you get it? That's the way. You know, video content, uh sincerity, be yourself. This is who I am, this is what we do. That is gonna get, you know, your face, your personality, your beliefs into the people that you need to know, who need to know, who you want to know, right? So I saw it, I saw it coming and I ignored it because I didn't want to do it, and that was that. And then when we joined, you then have a group of people all saying the same thing, sharing their experiences and showing what they do and how they do it. And certainly from a coaching aspect, um just understanding that you know it's not gonna be great first off. So just but you have to just jump, right? So once we then, you know, understood it and went, yeah, okay, I get it. This is what we've got to do. Then it's okay, we were up here, now down here. Now we can see what we need to do, how we need to do it. We're starting to implement it, we understand the benefits of it, and now we've got a clear strategy of what it is to the for the next steps to grow. And that process came through seeing it, understanding it, watching it, but then actually needing to be told it as well.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

That you just need to do it. And and so, because like you've had some great success on TikTok Avenue, and that's sort of only been a short journey. Um I've been sat in sessions, whether and when we first died, I was like, just go on video. Yeah, you're like, oh, and then you had those first coming videos sent over, and it's like you could tell like you're just doing the do, and then we had another session about a month ago, two months, three months ago, it was and I was like, just TikTok, just reply to those people. Yeah, and now you're just like uh I don't care about your chick coming, I'm just gonna reply to that and then and it goes from there. So, like what um for anyone out there who might be still stuck in that brand, brand above the door, on big camera, like it's all about the brand. Like, what what advice have you got to someone out there who's maybe undertaking that first bit of videos or experimenting with TikTok or doing a walk through a tour or doing some advice? The best advice is just keep going. Uh, because the first few videos, 10, 20 videos, are gonna be awful. Like, and how what was that experience like for you? So, like, because now you've you're getting good numbers. Yeah. So, what was that experience like when you first posted that first one? Did you get like, did you get 10 likes? Did you get one? If that. Yeah, if that, it would probably only be dad that saw it. It was just at the f the first bit was really hard. The walkthroughs always did okay, because people are quite nosy and they want to see, but it was then going from walkthroughs that were getting however many, 10,000, 20,000, 50, whatever it was, and then it was going to ones of you talking, and then you're only getting three, four likes, or five hundred people. But then I saw another podcast you did, and she said, Well, that's 500 people. If they were in a room with you, you'd be like, Oh my goodness, 500 people are watching, mate. And once you get that in your head where you keep constantly keep doing it, so constantly another 500 people, another thousand, and you're building it up, and then your following's going up, it's only going to be one thing because off the back of it, a video I did that was about um houses not selling, like what can you do? You can talk to other agents, or if you're looking to, you know, whatever it was. Someone came to me and said, Well, I've seen what you said, can we have a chat? And I've got their house on, and it that was just through TikTok. That was just a minute video. It's mental. Just a minute video of me saying what to do if your house is not selling. And they went, Oh, yeah, because they're bought into how you're speaking, and that will come over time. It doesn't happen on the first one because it's gonna be crazy. Be like the comedy boiler days, yeah. Just learning, isn't it? Just learn. I think I think um what I've noticed for you guys, you've gone from especially like I know TikTok's a different channel, but you've gone from overscripted or perfected thinking about it to like literally like I'm just gonna put a video up now, I'm gonna talk on it. Yes, you have to have some professional uh view of it and some reasons why you're on there, like stupid TikTok dances are something that I just sometimes do out there. Yeah, yeah. It's only gonna be beneficial. Yeah, that's all I can say, because the more people see it, the more interaction you're gonna get with your brand, your company. And how have you found that on meeting people? Has has uh have people have you gone into evaluations and sort of anything changed in the I'm going to I've set up a like meet me and I've got Wayne Scram on it, I've got uh TikTok on it, and a little bit about myself. And when I get to the evaluation, they already know who I am. They go, No, you're two kids, I'm gonna win. Yeah, how do you know I've got two kids? And then I'm like, because I it was the first value I should have did post to in this video, and it's just that barrier already broken before I've gone through the door. So I've already resonated with them because they've got kids themselves. And then we're talking about how awful it is to have two under two at night. Yeah, podcast. Only meeting at night, don't meet during the day, they're brilliant. Lovely kids. Yeah, don't answer me back. No tantrums. And then so you're at this stage now. Um, like, okay, let's move on to like uh AI. Like, where do you see you you say you you look into the future, so where do you see uh AI influencing the industry?

SPEAKER_01 44:47

So I mean I can all all of the tasks that are time consuming but necessary.

Values, Brand Soul-Searching, And The Fox

SPEAKER_04 44:59

I think AI is gonna do them all eventually, but yeah. Um things that are just you have to do them to get to point B. But the actual bit of doing it is kind of meaningless, it doesn't have any skill to it, it's just a task.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:20

All of those things will be done by AI. Uh hopefully. And then the service side will still need the personal touch.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

Do you think that the service that you obviously you're in a smaller team, but their fundamental belief, like the ideology, is to deliver a better experience. That's the reason why you're you predominantly set up the company. And you and AI will, you know, if you and those other companies who are the big machines just going to keep going, right, I don't talk about AI, let's just keep going because we're working it. But they still are admin heavy. Yeah, yeah. Numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, speech of about two minutes. And I think like a lot of people, you know, the keep the big key phrase people keep saying that is like, it's not AI will replace the state agents, it's the state agents using AI will replace the state agents who are not using AI. Yeah. And so do you find with the freeing up of those tasks in the future, where do you see yourself in how you think town and city might operate in that way?

SPEAKER_04 46:20

I think you get more chance to hold people's hands throughout that process. And it's I'm not saying we're counsellors or anything like that, but there's there's a there's a whole lot of stress that goes through it in the moving process. And a lot of time is taken up with maybe you know, you might have 100 clients on your books right now with solds for sales and all that. But you might only speak to a handful of them because that's what you can physically go do in terms of real hand holding. But if you had all of them needn't told you, you wouldn't you wouldn't physically be able to do it. And it's I think it will help that. And you'll have more time to be able to go, right, what do you actually need? This is what you need. I'm gonna show you how to do this. So I think the service standard is gonna improve with AI. I think the one of the biggest mistakes I me personally, I think agents may do is use AI for the service. And I think that would be a big mistake because the without the personal touch, the natural um ability to uh understand and be compassionate, I think that would be a massive mistake. But I I can see agents doing it because it's another part of the job that they won't have to rely upon and have people to do.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Yeah, and I think the I think the training element today is the key part. So going back to what you said, like if you had uh one of your managers in the old days or one of the corporate people training the AI do it in a particular way, yeah. It's gonna be a freaking car crash if you try and put it onto a business like yours, because it'd be like people like, hang on, I thought Town and City were like these really nice friendly family, and it's like this AI box trying to hardball me into like all from Wall Street and trying to make my house, isn't it? Absolutely. And people just don't see that. And I was only spent to an agent the other day, he's like, I'm gonna get this tech in. I was like, it just doesn't work. It doesn't, it doesn't work that you think it it's gonna be that way. No, no. Um but I I get I get with you, I 100% agree with you on that part. I think it's it's a shifting mindset of of removing the fear of of freedom of time, thinking oh, we're just gonna be made redundant to be like, no, actually, I want us I want you to spend more time with these clients. Yeah. I want you to live a better connected experience because you aren't dealing with admin shit behind the scenes. Um There's got to be something that we do differently, because we're not the biggest at all. But there's got to be something different that you do or we do to the big corporates. And that's one of the things that we're trying to incorporate in every day. And so uh one of the things I wanted to touch on. So you've had a rebrand recently, yeah. And yeah, we had those conversations, and I said, Nigel, just don't do it, just get someone in to do it, yeah. Um after the art room. Yeah, and the WhatsApp basically. Yeah, what's that like? No, I think you just go speak to this person. Um and we obviously had um Sapner talk about an EX10, you know, everyone has uh houses or keys, you know what I mean, above their logos. How many people have had that or um so going from like your original brand and you've had that for 13 years, so naturally you're oh I don't want to change it that much. Yeah, yeah, to now it's a it's a it's a revamp. It looks so much more fresh up. Yes. So what how was that approach? How did that approach go for you? Someone's thinking that sitting there thinking, I probably need a refresh, yeah, but not a refresh and just put another fucking house on my logo. Yeah. How was that process unraveled to you as well?

SPEAKER_04 49:59

Yeah, so um we spoke to a guy called Josh and um we had a we we we went through uh what does our brand mean? What who are we? What do we do? What does our brand mean? What's the difference between what do we stand for? You know, what's our personality? Um how how how hard was that? Yeah, really hard, actually. You'd think it'd be easy.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

But when you go, uh we don't sell houses and we sell houses or let houses and you go, Yeah. Okay, what what what else? You go.

Strategy, Ads, And Data-Driven Growth

SPEAKER_04 50:32

Yeah. What do you mean? So and but us we he he then went away, came back, and came back. Well, I mean, we loved it straight away, right? But it sounds stupid. He came back the the actual design, love it, right? Love the design, love the colours, um, and I thought, yeah, yeah, we we match that little bit of vibrancy with the darker tone. So it's uh it's a lovely, I like the cerise pink. Um but with this little character and it was a playful fox, right? Because um and and I I don't I don't know he whether he came via that from what we said. I'm assuming he did mean it that way, but when we saw it, we thought, oh that's cute, you know, and that's quite fun, and we can do little things with it. But then when we thought about it, you think about it, and you know, you think, okay, what's what's the relevance between the fox and selling houses? There's not so much the relevance between the fox and the selling houses. Maybe it's to do with a little bit about our personalities and what we do. Um and that's the bit of you know, very resourceful. They can get into anything, you know, any area they want to be in. Um foxes are there, but also they're always always out looking for houses, aren't they? They're always out looking for somewhere to somewhere new to sleep, somewhere safe. But um they're they're clever little boys or girls. You know, they're they're they're smart animals. So and that's what we try and be, but they're also playful.

SPEAKER_02 52:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:10

So um I think I think it resonates with us that way, but I liked the character. I just liked the little there's something different, hopefully.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

It's been yeah, because it like most people just go. I remember when we went for a rebrand with my old company, and like we we we went for a different version, but at the time there'd like five different versions hung over for the parts. Like, why's that logo on that? Like, why is that that was like a logo we did like ten years ago. Why is that on that board? And why is the logo on the office stuff the different logo? Yeah, and we went for that process, and everyone's like we can't lose the the essence of the brand. Um so so it's nice to see that that evolution for you take place, and then so um, and obviously you've got you as of the transition over bus, you you've you've done like some AI websites and you had that mainframe document. So, like what did you learn in that process as well? Like, because it it must have been a because you because when I first met you, yeah, it was very much the brand led. Yeah, behind the scenes, logo, that's how we've always been. Yeah. So now like you're still on, you're still getting on videos, yeah. You're you're doing the socials, you've got it's more playful logo above the door, yeah. You've got a bit more of a an essence towards all of it. Like, so what did you learn in with just that? Most people think, oh, I'll just do a website. It's like take all the other stuff that's cool. Can you just make it a bit more cooler on this? Yeah, yeah. Uh so not necessarily a bit of plug for what we do, but like what did you learn in that process combined with the logo? Because it's pretty much similar times that you've sort of done. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we did it for that, really. I mean the dev, I mean the dev behind the scenes, the dev like this is taking a bit longer because there's these fox uh animations that are being put into the motor, and I was like, I'm keeping quiet because I'm not gonna I didn't tell them to just go I didn't read them. But I think it's about finding out it was soul searching, wasn't it? What we were doing. And did you soul search for the brand or just you as individuals? For both, I think.

SPEAKER_04 54:17

Really. Um and I think I think it's uh you could go on this forever, couldn't you? Because you could keep doing this. And I think it's important to keep reminding yourself because how many times do you sit there and go, why do I do what I do? Why how do I do it? Why do I do it? What's the reason? And it if you if you haven't got that, I think it is difficult to focus on the right things. Because you're always focusing on whatever whatever's put in front of you. Whatever's like we we when when we started that process, we were sitting there and we were saying, right, okay. So if this is a reason why we do it, and we came up with one of these values of what we believe is important, if this is the reason why we do it, surely the decisions we make gotta reflect that. So it can't be driven from how do we get going back to a corporate way, right? How do we get to ten valuations, right? So you've got these, these, these, these three different things to get that historically you know may work, or whatever that figure is, you know. If if you've got your I suppose your why or your reason for doing it, or your value for doing it, and what what what the outcome you want to happen uh for other people, then you can build everything around that and that message hopefully that's the plan, isn't it? Comes across in what we do. So I think that's a massive change. It's a sh it's a mind it's a mind shift, a mindset shift to not just being an estate agent, but understanding what you do as an estate agent, actually, the impact that has on the lives of others, and then okay, and how seriously do you take your job, isn't it?

Choosing Clients And Setting Clear Rules

SPEAKER_03 56:31

Yeah, I mean values led um value-led accountability is the key part to a lot of it. Yeah, I mean, like you and people see through it. I I I've said it before, I had one guy who's basically got some no excuses on his wall above, and I and we I kept some coaching him, and I said for a while, I was like, I'm really bored now because you keep using excuses. It's got fucking no excuses on the thing. And uh he doesn't listen to this episode. But but um you have to live by that because that's the thing that oozes out, yeah, and that's the thing that people talk about when you're not in the room. Yeah. Like I've got an agent, I've got an agent not too far from you, and I went to an an awards event the other week, and I said the name, like I said the name to run on this rant about how she knew him and how she'd done business with him, and it but none of it was about the process of selling the house. It was about how he made her feel through the transaction that his problem and he how he was dealing with it. Nothing was about the oh, do you know what? It's a lovely experience. You took the kitchen, like it was none of that. It was just all about the emotion. She went on for five minutes and I messed with him and said, like, mate, so good. I met this lady and she just spoke about you and your business in such a way, it was so nice to actually sit there and they say, you know, the bit the your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. And that was like such a great moment. That's what you want, isn't it? Yeah. That's what you want. So so uh last thing like say maybe before before I let you guys go. Um where do where where's your where's your goal maybe in the next sort of three years? Like where where's your next stage? Where's your next steps?

SPEAKER_04 58:13

So it's too I mean I'm still not sure which way we go, whether we go down the uh building on the self-employment route or employed route, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

But what I do know 100% is where we've stripped back, started building, started putting the the layers in to make a good foundation.

SPEAKER_04 58:42

So we've now got a proper strategy of how we move forward and how we grow is to fill those gaps in as we go. Because we've got gaps that are there now, but it's now a case of let's grow before we fill them and put the right things in place to make sure every all of our vision is is happening in the right way. I don't want to rush it like I did last time.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

So there's the first line that's saying no expensive managers. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 59:15

Ultimately it's all driven for the customer, right? So you you want the customer experience to be the best experience. So and because things are changing so fast, that recruitment role, if you like, is changing what you need, you think you need now, is gonna be different in a few months' time. So it's about making sure that we don't just knee-jerk now and go, right, I want to fill that, because that job's gonna change. So it's understanding where that is. At the moment, what we're doing is building the right focus of focusing on the brand recognition, because we we haven't had it. We've been going, in fact, in that time. We've relied upon, I suppose, our reputations in the in the industry in terms of recommendations, referrals, people who have used us, want to use us again. People who've used me know me, know what I do.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

There's always a limit of those people you're absolutely realised this massive pool of people. Yeah. Oh, I have a valuation of this guy.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:18

Absolutely. So that's that's the next process now. So we've got to strip it all back and go, right, let's get our brand out there. Let's show people we're here and what we do. And if you like what we do, we'd love to work with you. That's how that's gonna work.

Goals, Hiring Smarter, And Next Steps

Wrap-Up And Subscribe

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

And it is a harder way of doing it, because most people go, Do you know what? I need that market, I'm just gonna pay someone to do it. And then and then and then I have conversations. I'm like, you know, I was they're not getting anything from it. I was like, What are you giving them? I don't know, letting them do it. And it's like, you've got no brand guidelines, you've got no personality, you're just doing it the same as another agent down the road because the way it's and then you wonder why you're still in the same position. Yeah, but sometimes it's harder to actually go inward, strip it all back, you have those difficult conversations. Like, why do we even exist? It's uncomfortable. Like, our logo is not good. Like, we want to revamp it because we need to represent our new version of ourselves. Yeah, yeah. Uh that logo was great 13 years ago, but like now it just doesn't represent us. And then then you have the building blocks of strategy to then say, right, when we do expose it, and these people get us, because not been exposing it to 20,000, 30,000 views on TikTok or not. It doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean anything. Yeah, yeah. That's great. And then look behind the scenes and go, it's just another stage. Yeah, that's one of the things that like that three-year thing, I think it's going in the right direction now. When we don't want to just rely on right move, supler, or any of them for valuations. We've got the gold mining in the system, but we stripped back right move to their basic package because we know the route to go down, which is the AI, which is um we've gone down the ads route, and we're gonna build it up through that way. So they're gonna see our personalities from these ads running, and they're only gonna come to us if they want to come to us. We're not forcing anyone to come to us, they'll buy into what we're doing through these ads or through the videos they see when they go on our Instagram, our TikTok, and go, Oh my goodness, these are the guys I want to use. We're not trying to force every Tom Dick and Harry to come to us, you've got to buy into us. It's not just about uh one way where you try and list everything now. It's well actually if you buy into us, then perfect, you know, we're the right match, but sometimes it might not be, because if you're not gonna go down the route that we want to go down, i.e. marketing, i.e. whatever it is, then we're not gonna work from day one. So try that other agent. And and actually it's quite interesting because like when you do get on video, the biggest fear that sometimes get on video is accepting the fact that some people will read watch that video and go, don't like that person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you go, that's fine, but there's gonna be another person. Like you roll off. We always say the role to agent saying like 30 to 40% conversion rate. Like if you can convert that many people in your business, that's a standard. If you go if you think you're 75%, then you're you're not gonna be discovering about with your cheaper, too cheap. And if you're below that, yeah, you need training, development. Like how you how you are putting that ahead, uh putting it across, um, and people just accepting the fact that like out of three, two, two, two out of three people are not gonna want to use you, but you're just trying to find the the one. And when you know that, like you said, then you can expand out, and then it's a case of automating it in a way that it's still person-centric, it's still human-led, it's still data-driven. But everyone understands the roles, yeah. So then you're not gonna get sellers that are demanding more than what you're offering, yeah, or demanding less, or not getting what you're wanting. We've told you from day dot this is what we do. If you don't if you don't like it, then obviously there's other agents that you've that you know of. Yeah. But you've bought into what we do, so we don't have these conversations anymore of going, oh my goodness, it's not working out, or um this I want you to do this. No, we've already done it. Because you know we've done it. Yeah, and then and and agents being frustrated with that. I see a semi-agent out there frustrated, you go, Oh, this it's like that's a you problem. It's a fear problem. It's not their problem as well. It's a you problem that you haven't created the rules of engagement, yeah, isn't it? Um I've realised I've got an hour, I've gonna have an hour chatting to you and I'll probably chat you a lot a lot. I'll probably get told off on this one. Um I just want to say thanks for joining us today. Really, really enjoyed the conversation. And uh anyone want to follow you, where's best to follow you? Luke's talking about Luke Sales Honey. Luke Sells Honey from Tip Top. You probably get uh abusive comments. Yeah, it's probably the meaning. If they don't like it, it'll reply back, I'd say, with the same message. Perfect. But I appreciate you joining, guys. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Thanks for listening to this Estate Agency X podcast. Can you make sure that you're actually subscribed to this podcast channel if you liked the content? Uh, it helps us massively to get better guests, and it just helps us generally. So you might think you're subscribed, but just have a double check, whatever your um podcast platform of preference is, that you're actually subscribed, and then that way we can continue to grow the channel and get better and better guests for you.