John Eaton-Griffin's Cloudy with a chance of Dyslexia.
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John Eaton-Griffin's Cloudy with a chance of Dyslexia.
From Apprentice to Advocate: A Journey Through Neurodiversity and Marketing
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Adesewa shares her journey from aspiring civil engineer to Microsoft marketing professional, highlighting how her neurodiversity became her superpower in the tech industry through apprenticeship programs and advocacy.
• Finding her way to tech through an apprenticeship after initially planning a civil engineering career
• Becoming an advocate for apprenticeships as pathways that support different learning styles
• Creating marketing campaigns that reach diverse audiences from technical to executive levels
• Mentoring and supporting other neurodivergent professionals through employee resource groups
• Getting diagnosed with dyslexia and ADHD, and the challenges of getting proper support
• Using AI tools like Copilot to work with her brain rather than against it
• Overcoming imposter syndrome as a young Black woman in a predominantly white male industry
• Emphasising the importance of accessing support resources like DSA (Disabled Students' Allowance)
• Advocating for personalisation in workplace tools and environments
• Building confidence through the mantra "they didn't hire you for any reason"
If you're interested in learning more about dyslexia, consider checking out Made by Dyslexia's course on Microsoft's training page, which aims to help people understand what it means to be dyslexic.
Journey from Civil Engineering to Tech
Speaker 1Hi everyone, welcome to Cloudy with a Chance of Dyslexia. Today we're here joined by the dynamic swear. I always get your name wrong.
Speaker 2You'll have to show us and like, pronounce it like S-P-H-E.
Speaker 1His journey really started from the early apprentice, integrated marketing leadership at Microsoft, and, as powerful as it is, motivating, we're here to talk about what it means to build campaigns that resonate, why apprenticeships matter more than ever and how tech, especially cloud and AI, is shaping future. Communication plus to explore the importance of neurodiversity in the workplace and how companies can better support talent from all walks of life. Let's dive into the thoughts and forward-looking conversation. So, in terms of starting with an early question, really you know when you started out in tech and things like that, you've had such a diverse career so far, from your experience with Tideway to leading marketing campaigns at Microsoft. What initially sparked your interest in marketing and tech, and especially coming from an engineering focused background?
Speaker 2yeah, so with me. I honestly wanted to be a civil engineer, if you can name me when I was 14. Civil engineer was my dream, because my dad's a civil engineer. I love seeing the stuff he was building. He was telling me about how he supported the shard and all these other big things in london. I was like, if he can do that, I can do that. That sounds amazing. I want to do it.
Speaker 2We got my work experience at Tideway when I was in year nine and that's when I got introduced to a bunch of different sides of the engineering world. But I fell in love more with civil engineering and that's when I also got introduced to like the idea of apprenticeships and like, as I was going through my A-levels, I chose subjects that were specifically aligned to civil engineering. So I chose physics, chemistry and maths painful subjects, but I'm very happy that I chose to do them and during that time I was looking at applying for apprenticeships. But I was also looking at my 10-year plan and at that time everybody was like you must get into tech. Everyone is going into. Why are you not going into tech? And I'm like you know what that could be at the end of my 10-year plan. That sounds nice. I like the project management aspect of it and working with technologies and gaining experience with people. So I was like, ok, that will be there.
Speaker 2But then, as I was going through applying for civil engineering apprenticeships, therosoft one just took on my feed and I started reading the description of it and I do like to think of myself as creative, like I love sewing, knitting or baking, cooking, all of that type of stuff. I love it. So I said, okay, I get to be a bit creative in this role. It sounds fun. It sounds like a bit of me. I love your project management. I do like people around me too.
Speaker 2So I was like, okay, you know what? Like it's the only tech company I've applied to do. It's like if I don't get, I don't get it. Like my main focus is super engineering, but it's not gonna hurt if I do get it. So I applied and I got into microsoft and with microsoft's apprenticeship program you don't know where you're going to land until your first day of the job or like your final set up interviews. So as I was going through it, I was making sure they knew I was a bubbly person, that was creative, that I like fun things that I want to do, fun things, and I feel like my personality just said you know what marketing is, where you're going to reside and where you're going to do well, so I was one of the only people that got was lucky enough to be placed in the Cmo team and it was absolutely amazing. I feel like it just grew my love for technology and marketing more yeah, well, I love the fact you've got a 10-year plan.
Speaker 1I don't think I've got a 10-year plan I had one, now I'm still trying to figure it out for the next 10 years yeah, but look, I mean at least, at least you're planning, as you know, the the most important thing is you're right is don't get caught so much in the short term. You know, look at, look at what you want to try and achieve in the long term. So that's really really good to know. So when, when you're sort of when you started on that apprenticeship at microsoft, obviously you're you're a passionate advocate for that apprenticeship program, right? So, young professionals, maybe exploring pathways, what drew you to that apprenticeship route? Because you're in the middle of a degree and all those things are happening for you. So has it shaped your perspective on, like that ability to have that social mobility which you can sort of move around roles and things like that? You find that's made a difference for you by going through that process I think it's benefited me in more ways than I could even imagine.
Speaker 2Like I mentioned that, I did a work experience with an engineering company and that's when I got introduced to the idea of apprenticeships. I met three apprentices that were in quantity, surveying, data analysis and another one was in finance and they were talking to me about how beneficial that they found it for them and some of them one of them were neurodiverse, some of them weren't and it's just like outside of just earning money. It's like you're able to learn while you're working and I'm a person that is like hands on with their learning. So it just made sense to me and at that time I wasn't diagnosed with my neurodiversity, but I had an inkling that something was there, so it just made it's like for me. I like my learning styles and the environment that I know is going to thrive.
Speaker 2I knew I was going to be in a working environment.
Speaker 2I know that if I was a traditional uni I would have done okay, but I wouldn't have been as successful as I am now and like even like the sort of like getting a job and getting work experience and the things that the working world requires you as a young person to have.
Speaker 2I feel like I've been put in so much of a position compared to my peers because I went through this route, because some people just come to uni without any of experience and are struggling to find work, struggling to find jobs, but I've been in a position that I've had. I'm doing my degree, basically completing my degree, and had four and a half years of experience and have a healthy network that would make finding a job, learning something, a lot easier for me. And then actually like doing my apprenticeship with, like the company, like having a team that was always advocating for me and making sure that I was able to learn as I go, supporting me with my university assignments like you don't know the amount of times I sent to my team hey guys, I'm doing this assignment, do you want to help me? Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2Stuff like that and I'm like it. Just it's like I know a lot of people think like me and need that type of support, so I will always advocate for apprenticeships, like I made sure that even as I was applying for, even though I'd never experienced that at the time. It's like, okay, my school needs to know about what apprenticeships are and I will tell them what apprenticeships are. Apprenticeships are as valuable as university is, you can argue. For some people, apprenticeships are a bit more than that. So I made sure my school knew and they didn't. They took me seriously, but they took me more seriously when I did get my offer, so that could help.
Speaker 1That's great. I mean, the thing is, with that, what you've done in terms of as a mentor within Microsoft I know because I work there right, they have different EIGs. It'd be good for you to actually explain a bit about that, right, because I know you've played quite a key role in the Embrace ERG and maybe you know, for the people that might listen to this podcast, maybe that might want to do an apprenticeship or want to work with Microsoft or even just want to get into tech in general, especially as young, you know, young women, um, particularly, because I think that's something really important to attract women to technology. There's a lot. It's very, now, as you know, it's very male yeah, it's, you know. So, so let's, um, you know, and also, you know, in terms of mixing you know cultures as well just making sure we get the right cultures and the right balance in our roles and jobs, because you know that's so important to have that balance in the way we work together, right.
Speaker 2A hundred percent.
Speaker 1Different views of people and society to be. It's better by it right. So, I think you played a really key role in that, so could you explain how you got into it? I mean, you're very early in career, right? Yes, so what are the things that impacted you?
Speaker 2around that. So with the mentoring, so I've done a couple of mentoring rings at Microsoft and one of the main ones I participated was is the Embrace employee resource group. So they run almost, like I think, three times a year. They do like an eight to ten week course of mentoring where you'll have like weekly sessions with me as your mentor, but then you also have um four like mandatory sessions that you need to join. That we run by like the broader team where you'll be able to get CV skills interviews, um skills networking opportunities and all of that jazz. And I feel like it's a really beneficial program.
Apprenticeship: A Pathway to Success
Speaker 2I've mentored a few people and I've mentored a few people and seen a few people that maybe don't manage to get internship and grad roles at Microsoft or other companies. It's like the community that they have there is absolutely amazing. Like I remember I had one mentee. She was really really shy when I first started. Like my calls with her she was just like very in her shell, kind of like how I was when I started, but like throughout the eight weeks she was really able to grow and become more confident, become more confident with her presentation skills. I brought her in for an insight day and she was able to meet and become more confident, become more confident with her presentation skills. I brought her in for an insight day and she was able to meet a few more people in the marketing world and build her confidence in that sense. And she managed to get an internship for all not at Microsoft, but another company and I could not be more proud of her. But that's just like one of the many, many, many success stories that we've had.
Speaker 2I was a part of like another mentoring ring, but this wasn't to do with embrace, I believe it was like c2c mentoring. So we got partnered with one of the schools in, I believe, like north of England I can't remember the name of the school, but we were doing it and we it's like it was a bunch of apprentices mentoring year 12 and year 13 students who were really interested in apprenticeships. We were going through their CVs, interview skills, everything that we thought we needed. When we were going through this process and we were alone, we made sure that they had their support and many of them managed to get apprenticeship roles. It was absolutely amazing and it was lovely.
Speaker 2Another social mobility thing that I managed to do was um, so I'm it's like a most bursary.
Speaker 2So it's one of those social mobility groups that support, like underprivileged people of colour, making sure that they have opportunities for work, experience working and making sure that they're able to build their CVs or personal statements for universities and make sure that they're put on the right foot forward.
Speaker 2I had the opportunity to host work experience for those students along with my own secondary school, mainly because my sister was like Shawa, you're hosting a work experience for me, and my friend I was like okay, I'm definitely doing that for you, but I had a really good, good time. And then I got to participate in career carousels with Amos Bursary where I got to talk to them about. I did this alongside Frances, who is like the one that is connected to the Amos Bursary, but I got to talk to them about my role, how I got into Microsoft, then offer advice and then connect to them and help them further. It feels like really nice that I'm able to give back in a way that I wasn't like that I never received, just making sure that the people after me are well supported and I'm doing everything that I can to make sure that they're getting the support they need and they get the results that they want that's amazing.
Speaker 1I mean the empower to you for that as well, because, like as as a a young woman, to to actually put that much effort, you know, into helping others. It's incredible, so well done. Good on you for that. And then in terms of thank you, the fact is, you know, there's nobody that understands. You know, in terms of being a young black woman, better than a young black?
Speaker 2woman, right, you know so you know.
Speaker 1So the thing is it's great to have your advocacy for those um you know to to make that work right and yeah, what I want to sort of, I suppose did you mention francis? Did you mention? Yeah yeah, because I'm going to bring francis on at some stage as well. Right, I'd love francis on because he is like also, yeah, a great character, really big social mobility advocate yeah, yeah, he took us into one of the local schools as well, and I forget the name.
Speaker 1This is very much a dyslexic thing, isn't it? Yeah, names of things that are in your head and they just fall out, they're the simple things and but that's just part, I think, of being dyslexic, right literally. That's why we sort of connected on this. But in terms of one, one of the things obviously you chose, you moved sort of, you know, at the cloud level. You're currently doing these integrated marketing programs with microsoft and the cma teams are quite senior leadership in microsoft.
Speaker 1So, yeah, you walk us through how cloud computing plays that role in sort of shaping marketing to some extent, because one thing is obviously, especially when you target the C-suite or executive engagement and you're trying to get to those levels, how do you work with the marketing team for that to happen? You know what facilitates that, that and it's maybe that's a difficult question, but it's how you know you can use your knowledge so far to sort of help attract the, the students, to that as well, and maybe different groups, because we want to grow, um, the technical community, yeah, from all walks of life, to maximize our thinking. Really, I think about how things work, you know, and how to get the best out of that technology. You need you need huge diversity of thought. Definitely, right. So how do you think about? How do you think about how you're going to use that, or maybe, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2I feel like so far, my team is doing an excellent myself and my team are doing an excellent job in it, and when I talk to my manager about like how we are trying to bring people along in this AI transformation journey it's literally trying to gather people along with us and make sure that they understand from a top like a top level to a bottom level my manager always says, like we're funneling, so we run like for me, I'm an integrated marketing manager specifically for security, but also do help like overall with AI halo when I can, when time permits. So it's like making sure that, with all the products that we have out and there's AI integration into it and also cloud computing, how are they being educated? Are they learning from us or are they learning from a competitor? So, making sure that we have like the top level knowledge available for any and everyone. So we make sure we send it out and we make sure that we have like the top level knowledge available for any and everyone. So we make sure we send it out and we make sure that we have them at least like two or three times a month either sent out from like an EMEA top level or from a UK level and when it comes to people hosting these webinars, it's my role, so I'm excited to make sure that I have a variety of different people doing it and for me, I try to make sure that, if I can, I get the early in careers to do it, mainly because a lot of them need experience presenting, just because it's something that they're going to be needing when they're a full-time employee and they actually need to get their faces out there to make sure that they know their stuff. And what best opportunity for them to get that and make sure that they know their stuff and what best opportunity for them to get that visibility to show that they know that stuff? It's like that's the best environment to do. You're presenting to a bunch of customers and on these calls we average about 100 to possibly like 100 people on these calls. So I try to make sure I do get variety of people making sure that everyone gets that top level information in those webinars. But through the words of our early careers and my gurneys that have done it for me, they have done a great job thus far with those particular presentations.
Speaker 2But that's just like not the C2E level, but that's just like a basic level of anyone that wants to understand, like security AI, it's always still on the MAI cloud Microsoft page. All webinars are there. If they want to see it, everyone is able to access it. But then when we're filtering down to that BDM, tdm, c-suite level, it's getting more specific in their wants and their understandings and through conversations between Microsoft sellers or even like, through their like interactions with our content, we can see what they want to know and why they want to know that and just facilitate an environment for them to have those particular conversations. So, whether it be through security leader forums that we're seeing this is a big trend in the security world that we need our C-suites to know that Microsoft knows what they're doing, not that we're trying to sell them information, but to know that Microsoft knows what what they're doing, not that we're trying to sell them information, but to know that microsoft knows what they want, that microsoft knows what they want, that they're doing in this particular space and they can continue that conversation with their suppliers to hopefully, you know, drive a profit.
Speaker 2Like a lot of what marketing just to do is to amplify what is being done at microsoft and facilitating an environment for those conversations to take place, and I feel like we're doing a pretty decent job making this special arrangement, even like with things like the AI. So we're making sure that, at the end of the day, it's the business decision makers making all of the majority of the financial decisions. So we're taking the TDM stuff, technical decision makers, information that, oh, we need this, but how can we convince the business decision makers to do that? So it's really like technical demos, but just making it more in the eyes of this is how we'll save you money, this is how we'll make your team productive, this is how it's going to improve your entire work, sort of.
Marketing Campaigns and Cloud Computing
Speaker 1That's kind of like how we are getting to that particular group I mean as an as an aside actually, because I'm still in the ai space. I think the that there's going to be huge impact on our society in general, right. So it's like um, you know, it's a very exciting time to be in tech and see that shift and and really you know how um we support that so that it is inclusive and diverse 100 a friend, a friend of mine, said something to me, I think in the last podcast I did, that a farmer in Africa now has more access to information than President Kennedy had.
Speaker 1Right, yeah, right In his back pocket on a mobile phone. Yeah, and with AI. Now it's going to accelerate that even more so that ability for anybody, yeah, and and how we make it more diverse through connection and things like that. It's really important, I think, in terms of the impact, you know, on a global level. But how do you see the sort of, I suppose, if you look at that, the importance of diversity and inclusion? And what I do love about microsoft is that access to training right, that yeah free training.
Speaker 1access to training pretty much is everywhere, all over its website, and so it's really encouraging for anybody that wants to learn and has that learning mindset and that growth mindset.
Speaker 1You can learn anything you want on tech if you want. Right, and that's what I'd call out on this If you really want to learn about tech, go to the Microsoft website and you can learn a huge amount. And there's a huge amount and there's huge amount of courses. Take the exams, they're not usually expensive. Yeah, but again, I'd like to see maybe more of how we could build more interdiversity, inclusion for those groups that struggle in that area. Right, so what would you see as a um? You know a challenge maybe. You know that there might be like surface level initiatives, but things that we could really build on over the next few years to support that, not necessarily a microsoft thing. This is more about maybe working in that challenge in terms of raising awareness on some of those initiatives, and that's across the sort of yeah, maybe from a marketing point of view, you know things that we could push out there on social and you know any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2so I feel like my brain goes into a lot of directions. Just because I have spoken to like a cpu fellow about some things that I've done in general that I feel like is as inclusive as it should be, like even as simple as like some of the um, like exams, it just feels like I suppose to a few other neurodiverse people it just doesn't feel neurodiverse friendly. It's like I'm still like trying to put my finger on what they could possibly change, just to make it more comfortable and more accessible. But I feel like something might need to be updated in there, just because not everything is just fat recall, if that makes sense. So that's just like one thing in that sense, but just making neurodiversity and just like representation central to everything that we do and not just an artist or like you're just throwing in. Like making sure that, okay, we're having this flagship event that is hosting 5 000 people, we have all these sessions, but where are we highlighting the accessibility features of um co-pilot? Where are we showing accessibility features of our products in general, like the sticky tabs or like the different remote controllers or x, y and z? Like in those particular environments we do have an opportunity to amplify them.
Speaker 2So like making sure that if we are having, um, like, let's say, we're having c-suite bdm conversations with, like people in hr and we're looking, okay, how can copilot benefit your, all of your employees, making sure that it doesn't have to be the focal point, but it is a point in that that is there to support accessibility, making that possibly one of the topics for the roundtables or just even having it on the stand, just so it's always seen. And making sure it's clear that it's not just like the simple afterthought. That is just like my goal in everything. Just do not make it an afterthought. Always think about it. It's like when you go to these events, you're seeing people of all different colours, like respectfully, it's not. When you go to these events, you're seeing people of all different colors, like respectfully, it's not always white men, like I know the majority is this ai workspace but 100 it's not just that there's people of color.
Speaker 2So like like people of color people from different countries, so like in different parts, like accessibility, it's not always new diversity. It's like simple as language barriers. We are global. We are global companies working in different countries. Not everyone's going to be speaking english, not everyone's going to be speaking mandarin, so how is ai supporting those particular conversations? Or and then like, on the neurodiversity side, how are they actually supporting us in our workplace? Are we showing the the tips and tricks for what's to call that people need? Like not labelling them? Oh, if you're neurodiverse, you have to use this prompt. This prompt is for you.
Speaker 2At the end of the day, most prompts that are directed towards the neurodiverse people are just like productivity prompts, prompts that I feel like are my lifeline. If I share that to someone that is neurotypical're like oh my gosh, this is making my life easier. Like. The same way, it's just like cutting my. It's like. I know my brain like works a bit too time slow. I'm making me work on the average speed. I might make them work two times faster. They're going to be appreciative of it too, because even like down to like the wording of things like it can be labeled as a productivity tool. You can mention, hey, it can help neuro diverse people, but it's here for everyone.
Speaker 2Like making sure that it's like a balanced language because we need, because, like I remember talking to you about this when it came to my dissertation like, when it comes to this stuff, we're not trying to single people out, but it's information like that needs to be shared. Like when, like I think you showed me or it was it my permission showed me, like the video series, like a little video series on youtube, or people saying this is how I'm near university, you don't have to use it, but this is how copilot has helped me. And those tips and tricks I said those, they're useful for me and I shared it with my team. I'm like, oh, show up, this is making things easier for me. Or even just like simple instructions. That is just not for me. It's like heavy wording. I can't do a heavy wording. I will go into copilot to slim it down.
Speaker 1But even just like pre-thinking and having it clear and concise, you know, I mean, yeah, it's just things like that you're right and, um, you know this, this is the the way where I see ai really helping is you know the fact that, eventually, we're only in the first phases of it, right? So, phase, phase one, right, and I think where the way our minds work.
Speaker 1We're only in the first phases of it, right. So phase one, right, and I think, where the way our minds work, we're gonna actually have an advantage for once, you know, I think, the fact we can actually move from point to point to point very quickly, our ability to to deal with change because we always have to deal with change, yeah, right, in terms of how our minds work, will give us the ability to, you know, cope with, cope with all the movement moving parts, whereas people in neurotypical may struggle because they're used to more structure, whereas our brains, as you know, you know, don't work with the same format of structure. We have to sort of confine ourselves into trying to be structured, but that actually confines how we think. So it's going to be really, you know, I think you're, you know, this generation coming up now with the openness, because we didn't have that sort of openness, yeah, but the openness of neurodiversity and how it, how it's, how it's something that can, can actually support the workplace rather than be a negative.
Speaker 1Yeah, I see that motion coming through, but we need, we need, you know, advocates like you, driving that you know, older generation like me, that you know driving it too, right so. So together I think we've got a lot more power as as we sort of look to the next three to five years, right. So in the context of that, personalization in the workplace, definitely, I see ai and and potentially a great opportunity for companies like microsoft and, you know, the other big vendors out there right to be more thoughtful towards context and personalization of that experience.
Speaker 2So do you see that as a like, a maybe something with you know, with, with way ai is changing, is almost building models that are designed around different types of brain type, right, you know, and and it's really interesting space to look at what, what your thoughts on that I feel like we are going to go to that point that we're making everything a lot more personalized, like even like with agents and having it like building it specifically for you and what you need, or like having specific co-pilot chats that have personas that are able to help you with what you do. That personalization is coming and I hope it comes a little bit faster this week because I need everyone to. I feel like I need everyone to jump on that bandwagon. It's better to learn now, while it's still growing, than to not do it at all and then have to learn a stupid amount you know like not even like, not even like with ai, like people's like reluctance to change it's. I feel like it's funny to me because I was speaking to someone earlier this week about new outlook and I was like new outlook's been like a feature for me for like at least two to three years and I made the conscious decision to switch to it early because, like my brain's like okay, the longer, the earlier I switch to it, the more time my brain gets to process like how it works, so I'm able to use it better than everyone else. I'm going to be switching later on, but to this day people haven't changed and it's just like that man's sort of like the pre-preparedness and people not just like trying to move with the change of the century.
Speaker 2But I I hope a lot more people take into, take into account personalization, just because not everyone works in like one thinks the same and the more you train your ai models, the better it's going to work for you. Because I kind of like some, like the way my manager speaks and say something is not always the way that my brain will process it, but because, like I've trained some and like my like co-pilot chat, like I can break this down in a way that I will understand or break. I'll literally say, break this down in a way that is applicable to someone that has dyslexia or someone that has adhd. Will I have this? I put both in them and it breaks it down into a step by step so I'm able to like absorb the information, making more personable to me but making sure that I'm able to do my work the way I'm supposed to do.
Advocating for Neurodiversity in Tech
Speaker 1I hope that makes sense yeah, I mean in terms of, like, the whole idea of cloudy with a chance of dyslexia. We're trying to open up a space for discussing our learning differences, right, and how we, how we are different. Um, do you think at the moment and this is not specific to where you work or where, where we are today right, it's more about the corporate world. Do you think they're doing enough to support neurodiversity in the workplace? Because, you know, I always question this, because there's people that might write something down on their website and they might sort of say about it and say they're open to it, but when they actually get into the working environment, very few people understand it.
Speaker 1And it's not a criticism of the corporate world, it's the misunderstanding of what it means to be dyslexic or neurodiverse in any way. And in a high-pressure pressure environment, people revert to type so atypical, right. They then judge you by an atypical way of thinking and don't necessarily lean lean into understanding what your skills are. So this is, this is a challenge that I see quite a lot and have done over the years. So I just wonder if you see that too as a young sort of young, sort of early in career person that's trying to drive some change at the same time. Is that a challenge, you see? Or when you're under pressure, do you feel you get the right support?
Speaker 2It is a big challenge and it's frustrating me that it's as big of a challenge as it is because I speak to people internally and externally, especially because I speak to people internally and externally, especially like they need their apprentices. Talking about like getting support, like with me, it's like it took almost two years for me to get like any support of any kind because I wasn't made, I wasn't made aware what was there to support me. Like some people have all of that information and able to get things from the start and like they have to push very, very hard for them to get up to make sure it stays on track with me. I didn't know for two years. That's why I'm like, okay, if I didn't know for two years, I'm not letting another early in career that I'm aware has this. Let it. Well, I'm, if I'm aware or not, know that there's like I will make sure that they're aware that there's something that they need to know. Speaking to people externally, that like half the time I'm not sure if they're there to support me because I'm trying to push it through but they're not listening to me. And like I've been fortunate that I have a team of people that they might not. It's like they learn about it and they're advocates for it. Like there's people in my team like Mike and Imogen, who are big advocates for diversity, local Tuesday, supporting those initiatives and, through the help, have educated my team and my department.
Speaker 2I feel like sometimes I'm like because, like sometimes I want to tell you. It's just like the density. I was like why do I need to educate you on? It's like you should know. Like you should know that not everyone is like thinks the same way. You should know that not everyone. It's like you might find this fine, but I was struggling it's way. You should know that not everyone. It's like you might find this fine, but I was struggling. It's like you should know that not everyone works. You might hope that everyone thinks the same way as you're worth the same as you, but the reality of the situation that's not the case. Like my it's like I get frustrated.
Speaker 2I'm like why do I have to tell you, why should I tell you, that dyslexia is not? It's like not. For some people it's just like letters jumping on a page. For me, it's not the case. It shows differently in people. Why do I have to prove to you that I'm dyslexic? It's like you don't look like you're a person that is near. Do you know how many times I got that? You know, when I say I'm neurodiverse, like they'll either say it or they'll look at me like really yeah yeah, it's interesting because I had some conversations about this, so I'm going to be interviewing somebody soon.
Speaker 1One of the things I did a pre-call and one of the things she said to me was that she wouldn't want that for her children, and I said, well, do you know what it might actually be an advantage in the next generation, in the next generation, right? Um, and there's a really good um video about it, um on, made by dyslexia, which is a charity that I absolutely love, right? It talks about alando bloom. It talks about all the you know, all the people that have overcome what would be considered a challenging young, as a young person growing up, yeah, um, and not understanding why they had these challenges. Right, and I think one of the biggest challenges, not knowing. Not knowing that you've got you know, you just feel different and you don't know why and you don't know how to articulate that and if you don't have the parents if your parents don't understand it either, or there's stigma in terms of talking about it.
Speaker 1You know, and it could be cultural. There could be all sorts of talking about it. Yeah, you know, and it could be cultural. It could be all sort. There could be all sorts of reasons behind it. So when you, when you talk to your parents about it, how did they take it? How did they understand it? Did you have some challenges?
Speaker 2just wondered at first it was like uh, really it's like. Because when I was like I thought I was like, I was like I feel like I'm not sure. Mom just saw it as like a passing question, like no, but then I started tuition for uh, I think it was just like missing, is it a possibility? Because I'm like my school should have. When I told you like if I explained my journey, because I told you my school, my primary school, should have picked up, because they should have picked up, because oh, yeah, michelle was a bit slow in English, but she's fine in everything else, so it's fine. And then doing the reading says oh, she's performing slightly under average, but it's fine, we're going to start this test. But then they don't pick it up. They started the process for me two or three times and they just didn't do anything with it until that day, at tuition outside of school, I choose to pull my mum to the side after the test. She's like, yeah, within 10 minutes of teaching shower, I was like, yeah, she's dyslexic, like my daughter's dyslexic, and I have to teach shower like I teach my daughter. I'm like that's interesting, because at that time I put this sort of dyslexia or something out of my mind completely.
Speaker 2And then mom went to the school and like for what three, four months? She was saying you're gonna test her, you're going to. It's like, do you just like them? And this was like year 11. So like from september to december she was on their backs like you will be testing her. Like how has she been in your school for this dog year saying how she had this concerns. She is doing well and everything else, but not as much, not as well, in english. She's struggling with her reading and comprehension. Like why are you not supporting her? So my mom basically throttled them into making sure that I was tested. I got my, I just tested in december and like, yeah, you have dyslexia, but we are not gonna give you. And it's like you're gonna get your extra time for your exams, but that's all you will get, because by now you should have learned how to deal with it. I'm like what it's?
Speaker 1crazy, right, it's crazy. That's the attitude even I. I really didn't think I thought it got better. My daughter's uh, I'm gonna have my daughter on here. She's a primary school teacher and, um, I will bring her on actually and and talk to her about it because she's dyslexic too. Yeah, but she got a first class honors degree.
Speaker 1I'm very proud of her um, I mean, it was a long time ago now she that I mean it was a long time ago now. She's 30 now, right, so it was a long time ago but, yeah, still very proud. But she's, you know, she's already. She's always struggled, you know, with it and also even people understanding so, even when she had to, because she sort of travels a lot and she came back and she takes a lot of work on where she gets short-term contracts they either take like a written test.
Speaker 2You're lying Again.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like they didn't understand, like that wasn't her strength, and this is in a school right, where you would have thought they'd understand it, and so there's certain things that still go on that they misunderstand, even in the education environment of the process, the thought process, the way, the way we think.
Speaker 1Yeah, and what we're strong at, which is usually presenting or getting our points across or talking to customers, or the verbal communication. I think we both have, you know, and the way we connect is really good. But when you have to write stuff down, you know ai is great, right, does it for you?
Speaker 2yeah, it's like do you not ask me to write a good email? I can't do that for you. Sometimes I'm like, sometimes if you just write something like that doesn't look right. So I always use ai to self-check. Because no, but if you give me a bit of organization, you want to make something look good, you want to go through the campaign, I'm there. If you need me to write a thick email explaining what was said, I'm not doing it. I could, but it's just not going to be my best.
Supporting Neurodiverse Talent in Workplace
Speaker 2Even times like I'll have like calls with my manager because the way I think of things is not the way that everyone else needs to see it from me. So there was times that, even like to this day, that we still work through like okay, like these, just it's like I'm like you need to tell me how I need to be perceived for me to be able to do what I need to do. Well, it's like, okay, these people are saying they need to see it in this particular way, we'll work through and how formatting it. So sometimes I even have like my sentence starters or like my basic bit of structures, like in English when we had like the TEE paragraphs. I have that for, like my words of just to make sure I have the right things in the right order, to make sure that I get myself across in the way that they need to understand me. Because it's like if I say it to you, I know you're going to understand exactly what I'm saying, but if I say it to the people that I need to, but they're not hearing it because they're not hearing it in the way they need to say so it's like even if they had to conform it to what they need to hear, it's like an extra layer to the thinking I feel like with the dyslexia, hopefully with the ADHD, and like, oh, I didn't say the ADHD journey, I feel like you can see my brain is going back and forth, adhd journey. I feel like you can see like my brain is going back and forth. So after I got my dyslexia diagnosis, I was like, okay, that's great, but I'm like, you see, like when it's like there's something there, there's something else there and I was doing my research and like majority of women do not get diagnosed until like majority of people in general only get diagnosed when they are safety and like for women it's a lot later in life, just because we don't present in the traditional way and the only reason it's a traditional way is because all these sessions were done on white males. They've not done it on people of different cultures or just like just different genders or anything. So it's like, okay, I don't present in the same, in the way that they expect me to, but it's still there.
Speaker 2So during year 13, as I was applying for a bunch of apprenticeships, doing my A-levels, I made sure I set aside time to get my ADHD diagnosis because I was sure I had it, but for me I just needed that little bit of confirmation. So I went through Psychiatry UK right to choose, and that's the one that I saw on tiktok at the time and I was like, okay, that works for me and surprisingly, because I think it was a bit harder like a couple years ago but I got my appointment and diagnosis like within three months of like putting the initial request through, which I know is very, very quick compared to the normal waiting times of two plus years. And even though I've been an advocate of going through testing and making sure you it's like, if you feel it, get your test done because you're valid to say without the test. But I know, for a lot of people, having the test and having, like the factual confirmation is very, very important to them, like it was important to me, it was important to my sister, it was important to a few of my friends and, like you feel so like calm with it, like with my friends at a traditional uni, I'm like, make sure you harass your uni because they will pay for it for you and you get a DSA. Like do you? So many students, so many apprentices do not know about DSA and it hurts my heart, my mind and my soul because there's stuff in place for you to get support, to get extra things, and you don't know about it.
Speaker 2But for uni students, you can apply within your first final, whatever year, and they will give you a laptop so you're able to do all of your work. They will give you headphones because, like with me, that was literally my work requirement, just because if there's too much noise around me I will not function. Um, they will give you, like a microphone to record when you are in lectures. If you need a printer, because not everybody's able to like um properly on laptops, they could provide that for you. There's so many things that they will give you to make sure that they're as supported as they can do as they can be for you. So like, take advantage of that.
Speaker 2That's my big thing, and I see no one making sure I walk through that process with my mentees, internally and externally, to make sure that they get the support that they need. Like some of them need like squishy um squishy toys, just so they can like reduce their anxiety during meetings or while they're trying to process information that has been served to them. Some people, it's like they work best when they are in the office but the noise is too much for them. They need it's a need, it's not a one like oh, I just want new headphones. No, for me to function at my optimal best, that my company wants I work so much better with I'll work so much better with a standing desk so I'm not like when I'm getting anxious, whatever it is, I can stand up and I can walk a bit and I can pay attention during my meetings.
Speaker 2I need to have that body blown. There's so many things that it's like you don't really. It's like you think you need that you can get or that you don't need. And when you go through those assessment processes they'll be able to point you to the direction of mentoring, adhd or dyslexia coaching. They'll point you to the direction of hey. Just to let you know this is what has worked for me. If you want to try it out, let me know. And then feedback to me, like having those conversations and making sure people are aware of what support they can get and when, is so, so, so important. So I think I went on a slight tangent.
Speaker 1No, no, no. That's amazing information for anybody that's you know needs advice and guidance on this, because you had a very strong mother right that went out there and sort of hammered the school to get you the support right but not everybody's got that you know, and you've got to think about it right.
Speaker 1Not everybody's got a great mum like yours that really sort of push things right. In fact, we, we, I because I was dyslexic I didn't really share it. I really I really didn't talk about it until latter parts of my life because I thought no, because anytime I say it it's's a negative connotations on your career and things like that. And that's the reason I'm doing this podcast, because I think it needs to be shared now. 100% If you think about 20% of the workforce that exists could have some form of dyslexia. It may not be an extreme version, but they've just coped with it.
Speaker 1They've coped with it over the years and there are ways to cope with it better now, right by using AI there's tools out there and so you know, as you go through the generations and you go through our cultural shift, and how we collaborate better as a society. And you know there are some negatives going on at the moment, I know, but you know, let's bring us back to positive contribution to society. Right, as a team in collaboration, we need to understand those spaces that are and this moves on to another point right In tech.
Speaker 1It's very male dominated right Very and some women coming into that may not come into it because they feel intimidated, right, because it's so male-dominated. So how do you think then, with being neurodiverse, having these challenges, how do other people be brave enough to come into this space, right, and how do they build their bravery? How did you overcome that yourself? Obviously, having a strong mum helps, right. She's going to go, go do it, right. But how do you, how do you give people advice and guidance in terms of how they make that first step? What would your first steps? How did you, you know? How'd you overcome that in terms of you know, coming into the environment that's like a young black woman and then 20 white guys or something. How do you, how do you get through that? Because it's I suppose it's a daily challenge and it can be intimidating, right?
Speaker 2yeah. So like I feel like, no matter what career I was going to do because obviously we're going to be engineering or tech it was going to be very, very, very more dominant and, like I thought, both of my parents, they really instilled confidence in me. It's like they made us aware you are a woman of colour, things are going to be harder, but what are you going to do to be different? He's very much like the reality of the situation is this, but what will you make it? And I'm like, okay, I can do that and I can't learn. The advice I gave myself and what I give to others is just be delusional and it will work out. It wasn't like the reality of the situation is this, but I'm not gonna let that tear me down like this. I'm don't. I'm not gonna let.
Speaker 2I was nervous at times, like sometimes you're just sitting in me and I just be mute, but then other times I'm like you know what this needs to be said and just be empowered to say it. And I feel like one of the first times I did it was like three months into this role and I was like is that really? It's like I didn't say it in the moment. I was like you know what they're like. Okay, as an event, what were you guys saying to the day? I was like, yeah, as you know, I'm going to say it. I was like do you guys remember that particular presentation from those people? It just didn't feel as inclusive as it should, like there was something about it, and I explained what that something was. They're like, oh, I didn't know about this. It's something that we need to keep on our radar. I said, okay, you know what. They took it. Well, it's like they weren't going to bite my head for saying it and they actually appreciate what I was saying. It's like you know what? This is the reason why we have you in the team like talking about like differences in, like thought process, experience and like cultural knowledge. I guess it's making sure that you have that. It's like you, you were there to be there.
Speaker 2And what I always tell to people I always tell people that are in those positions and what I tell to myself you weren't hired for any reason. Like when they saw you with me I have a clearly Nigerian first and surname. They knew who I was when I was writing down the application. They saw me in those in series. They saw my personality, they saw my work ethic and that is what got me through the doors in. Like imposter syndrome is still there, but it's one of the things I say to myself okay, but so I didn't hire you for any reason, and if they hired you for no reason you would not have passed the probation period, but you did. So I'm like you'll speak your truth and you will be fine.
Speaker 2And I feel like, again, it's because I landed in a team of people who are very they're just very good people. It's like they will listen to you if they have questions or speak to you through it. If you're wrong, they're not going to be like you're wrong. They'll be like you know what. I understand what you're saying, but this is why we see it this particular way. It's like they're kind about it and like with me. Like not everyone's comfortable to be open with their neurodiversity. I am. It's like half the time. I feel like I'm very unapologetically myself If I make a spelling error, I'm like, oh my gosh, oopsie, dyslexia got me today and I just like make a jokey song or dance about it, just because it makes me feel better. And again, I was not hired for no reason and like.
Speaker 2Another reason why, when I was applying and like for the first year of my apprenticeship, I wasn't like ashamed of my dyslexia is because there was like a whole wave on LinkedIn about dyslexic thinkers and how our brains are amazing. Oh, we needed it. It's like put that in your linkedin skills dyslexic thinker. I'm like you know what? Yeah, do you want me to show you the proof that I have it too? I don't mind, you want a dyslexic thinker. I am the most dyslexic one you'll find. So it's like.
Building Confidence as a Minority in Tech
Speaker 2It's like I feel like it's just like silly things like that empower me and I tell people to do the same. So, oh yeah, just drink about it like you don't have to drink about in front of other people. Drink about it to yourself and then roll through that confidence. People will be looking at you like, while you're there, showing them, while you're there because you're amazing at what. You didn't hire you for any reason, and that's what I tell my apprentices, that's what I tell people in other companies. That's what I tell everyone's like, didn't hire me for any reason, I'm there for a purpose and I'm sharing my purpose I love that.
Speaker 1I love that and and also the thing that I think a lot of people don't don't necessarily know is, you're right, all those tools that are available to them, yeah, all those you know and I think we need to definitely share that right in terms of how that can help so many others out there also. Also, microsoft do have combined with some of the other charities out there, and that would be Made by Dyslexia B1.
Speaker 1And there are lots of other charities, but Made by Dyslexia is really interesting because they've done a course to help not only parents and students on the Microsoft training under the training page, and I'll include a link on that. That helps people understand dyslexia right, what it means, what it means to be dyslexic. So if you are a parent or even you want to try and understand your work colleague better, you can actually spend an hour on LinkedIn learning and learn about what dyslexia is and how you can manage that, because we're all in our our bubbles, aren't we sometimes?
Speaker 1right we'll get stuck within that misunderstanding way of thinking sometimes and you know, sometimes you need to reflect and understand that person thinks differently. And I got, I got nudged the other day actually by by my wife to say, john, because we walk around the woods in the morning talking about work and things like that, and then sort of moaning, groaning a little bit sometimes. Right, oh, you do. Um, and I said something about a colleague and she goes did you think about that? Did you think about what that colleague might think and maybe the challenges they might be having right now? And I thought, yeah, probably not enough. Yeah, because when you're in that motion, you're in that short-term thinking and you're like, yeah, into the, into the weeds on work, you sometimes unintentionally, you know, misconsider things and this is this is just a human trait, right, you know, and how we do it.
Speaker 1So, but back to you, back to you. So, um, a slight little bit of an aside, but in terms of looking ahead, you know, as one bold professional, that you are right. In the next few years, whether it be because of your engineering background and all that and that 10-year plan, what sort of legacy would you like to leave?
Speaker 2Yeah, that makes sense and I feel like I wanted to be around being an advocate for neurodiversity, making sure that people are not like that, people are just aware and that they consider it, and then also just to be an advocate for early in careers would that be apprentices, grads, interns, any of the sort that they know that they're they're important in the company and that they should just shine the way they're supposed to. I guess like making sure that people feel welcome in the company and that they're free to express themselves as a new, diverse person or just their personality in general. Just people. I can't get my words. I was just like. I feel like my, I want my legacy to be that people. I want people to feel inspired by me. I guess like to be confident in them as an employee because they were not hired for any reason. They're phenomenal, and also to like embrace the neurodiversity. It took me a couple years to embrace that and I'm happy that I did um, so I'm pleased it's been so great to talk to you.
Speaker 1I was just thinking in my head this is how your brains work, right? The beginning of the tina turner movie going this little shine and light light of mine. You remember that song, this little lad man, I'm gonna let it shine. So it just reminds me of that a little bit. In terms of that, that power that you, you cut, that comes across from you, right that, that that buzz that you bring when you come onto this pod, right in terms of your energy. So don't ever lose that, because it is it's it's incredible to have your, your thoughts down on this podcast and I think it will really help a lot of people. So I'm really, really delighted to have you on and thank you for taking your sunday morning out to talk to me, because I can't imagine it being that exciting to come to some old white guy's podcast and have a chat.
Speaker 2It's very exciting.
Speaker 1I work on buzzing oh, thank you so much. You are the youngest person that's come on the podcast so far. Right, don't think I'm gonna get easier to younger right, but well, well done. It's fantastic to have you on.
Speaker 1Thank you so much for coming on it's really important to make sure that we've got that balance and um, this and um. You know I've got a load of other friends I'm going to invite on as well, so thank you so much for being my pal and coming on the podcast. It's been fabulous to have you on your din, your dynamic way of thinking, and I think that you're going to have such an impact on the dyslexic community and within your own communities as well. And, by the way, I would love to get involved in. You know, just to go and talk to the schools if needed as well. I'm always open for that, so just don't ever forget, I'm happy to join.
Speaker 2I will keep you in mind definitely.
Speaker 1All right, okay, look, have a lovely Sunday morning, enjoy the rest of your weekend and really appreciate you joining today. And let's wrap up there, unless you want a final thing to add in.
Speaker 2Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh, you would have thought a coaching race would turn into this. I love it.
Speaker 1Exactly, exactly, really great to have you on. All right, take care, thank you. Bye, I'm going to stop there.