The Journey to Freedom Podcast
Journey to Freedom serves as an exclusive extension of the Living Boldly with Purpose podcast series—a platform that inspires powerful transformation and growth. Journey freedom is a podcast hosted by Brian E. Arnold. The Journey to Freedom is an our best life blueprint exclusively designed for black men where we create a foundational freedom plan. There are five pillars: Identity, Trust, Finances, Health and Faith.
The Journey to Freedom Podcast
Bridging Faith, Service, And Trust: Meet Dr. John Moreland
A trust workshop lit the spark—and a movement took shape. Dr. B opens up about the moment he realized great leadership content wasn’t reaching the communities he cared about, and how that conviction became a mission to spotlight everyday excellence among Black men. Then we meet Dr. John Moreland, whose life bridges the Air Force, law enforcement, the pulpit, and the classroom. His story is equal parts grit and grace: a childhood call to preach, decades of military leadership, and the day he broke the thin blue line to stop an assault—and paid for it with his career.
What follows is a wide-ranging, grounded conversation about how trust is built, how history shapes our present, and what it takes to lead without losing your soul. John makes a crucial distinction: most people aren’t racist, but many of us are race-ignorant. Without honest history—civil rights, policing, segregation’s legacy, and the long tail of slavery—we miss why stereotypes persist and policies fail. He also reframes fatherhood with a line that lingers: don’t just give kids what you didn’t have; teach them what you didn’t know. From budgeting at the kitchen table to narrating decisions during a game, formation happens in the small rooms of daily life.
We tackle algorithms and attention too. Much of what we scroll is engineered to divide. John’s advice is clear: go find credible information; don’t let content find you. Guard your eyes and ears. Fact-check before you share. And for those hungry to go deeper, he shares accessible routes into theological education and a civil rights learning journey that connects faith, justice, and advocacy across Atlanta, Birmingham, and Montgomery.
Come for the story of courage and consequence; stay for the practical steps that make families stronger and communities wiser. If this resonated, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review with the one insight you’re acting on this week.
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All right. Welcome, welcome, welcome to another edition of the Journey of Freedom Podcast. And I'm Dr. B. I am your host. And as always, so excited. I think we're right over almost about 250 episodes now. And it has just been uh just the last three years have just been a whirlwind. Uh, Dr. John, just as you think of uh I guess why I started. And when I went to this seminar, it was a guy named David Horsager, uh, trusted leadership, and I've told this story for many folks that have heard me before, uh, with a guy named uh Scott Lundine, who's here in the Denver metro area. And he took me to his college roommate and this friend, and uh this guy named David Horsager is like one of the foremost uh, I guess, leaders in understanding trust. And how do you lead with trust and how trust he's written several books and bestsellers? And uh I said, okay, I'll go. I I definitely got to trust. We got trust that issues all over all over life. Uh, and so I go to the seminar, and there's 500 people in the room. Uh, David's been one of our podcast uh guests, uh, that has just been fun. And there's 500 people that are in this room, and I look around, and there's about 30 people of color in the room, which is typical. It's in it's in Minnesota, so I'm not expecting there to be, you know, we're not in Texas, and I know doctors uh from San Antonio were I think the the largest group of African American folks in the country is in the state of Texas. Uh, I don't know if you knew that, but I didn't know you did not know that, but that sounds reasonable. And so um, so I'm expecting it and so but but the information was so good, and I'm like, well, how do I get this into our community? How do I take these things that other folks are learning and bring it back to our community? And so that became my quest of okay, how to do it. And I used to say, I used to say as I was growing up and doing stuff that it didn't matter, like, you know, I didn't need to see other men that look like me doing things to make me feel that I could be, you know, I could do it or be it or or or excel in it, you know, when I whether I saw doctors or athletes or whatever it is. And then it kind of hit me when I was at that seminar because I'm saying, okay, I yeah, it doesn't matter to me, and I keep saying it doesn't matter to you to me, and yet I counted how many people were in the room. So that told me like there's two things that are going on here. One, I really do care and I'm counting, or I really don't care, then why am I counting? I figured out that as I as I continue to go places and do something, it's just something that has been part of, I guess, my DNA. I'm 60 years old now, and just part of who I've been. And so I bring it back and I'm going, okay, so how do I just set up a coaching program? Do I set up a, you know, how do I get people? I definitely want to take people, you know, to understand and learn. And maybe the South is a place uh we could go, um, you know, just to kind of learn because you know I've seen the movies and I've seen all the things, and but at the same time, there's these eight pillars of trust. And I'm going, if there's folks that don't trust, it's black men. So I started praying about it, and I was I was saying, God, I really want to help folks of color. And he says, I think I you really need to help black men. I'm like, oh no, not just black men. Uh you know, that's that's the hard group. That's the group that I don't tell me that I just need to help black men. And he's like, Yeah, that's where I want you to start. And so that birthed the Journey to Freedom podcast. And I sat down in these rooms with folks that were helping me kind of put together what it would be. I said, Okay, in 2024, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna interview at least 100 black successful men from our communities. And it doesn't, you know, I'm not trying to find all the famous people, I'm not trying to be find all the rappers and the you know, the singers and the songwriters and the athletes. I'm trying to find the everyday person who is making an impact and a difference in our society. And so I my quest went out there. And so by the end of 2024, we actually had 105 episodes that were completed and done with men from all over the country. And it taught me, oh my gosh, there are some incredible men doing some incredible stuff. That that rap that we get all the time. And and I started asking stories and asking, well, how did you, you know, you somebody said, Well, I had both parents, and the other person said, Well, I only had a mom, and the other guy said, I only had a dad, or you know, we had these blended families, or we it was people from all walks of life. Well, I grew up in the hood, or I grew up in a nice neighborhood, and it didn't matter some of the things that our belief systems were exactly the same, no matter where we came from, and so it just got exciting. And so uh now, like I said, you know, even now through 2025, we've done another hundred episodes and we just continue to move on. And so sometimes I not only do I have to remind myself that's why we're here, but I, you know, for for guests that I keep getting introduced to just amazing, amazing men that are doing some incredible stuff. And and yeah, Dr. Don Morland, I just excited to have you on today. You know, the stories that I've been told, you and I have not met yet. And so this is more exciting than ever than ever to me because the things that I've been told about you and your life and this and the way that you're helping the community and and helping folks has just been phenomenal. I'm like, I can't wait to have this conversation. And I hope it's not our last conversation. I hope we're just getting started. And so, uh, like all our guests, I would love for you to tell your story. Tell us about like, you know, how you became and where you how you got to where you're at today, and take as long as you need to, because I think people love to hear more about uh who we are than what we do, and then we'll jump into what we do and and how we impact lives. But you know, the who we are as God just put us into this world for relationship. And I think part of a relationship is just knowing people. And so thank you, thank you, thank you for being on. Thank you for uh having me help do this experience with me or you doing this experience with me. And at this point, please take the floor, please tell us. I can't wait to hear it, and then we'll just chop it up after that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, Dr. B, thanks for letting me be here and inviting me on. I appreciate that. It's an honor. Um, anytime you're invited to talk a little bit about your journey and maybe what's going on. So, as you said, my name is John Moreland. Uh, I am born and raised in San Antonio, Texas. Fun fact, I'm born the ninth of nine children, and I am born number 94 of 94 grandchildren. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, man. My my mom and her siblings, there were 15 of them. My last living aunt uh on my well, last living aunt or uncle on my mom's side. Uh, we just celebrated her 99th birthday about a week ago. And uh 94 grandkids. 94. And that's my mom and my dad's side, but they both come from.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but that's still a lot of grand. I have 16 and going, wow, and I have eight children. I'm like, how would there be 94? Were are there some great grandchildren in there as well?
SPEAKER_00:Or is it just even more, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Oh my gosh. So cool.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. Yeah, so so God has been gracious, man. I um born in San Antonio, uh I knew at a very early age that God had called me to two things. One, I knew it called me to preaching ministry when I was five years old. Man, I used to preach to you know, the cows and the cars and the trees and and uh Big Daddy's Chicken Coop and anybody who makes it. And uh, and I knew that he had uh put it in my heart to be a police officer, believe it or not. Okay, and that's kind of a um a part of my journey that you know I talk about uh as the story unfolds and how God has used that in my life and my journey with race and you know, kind of what brought me to doctoral work and so on and so forth. So, anyway, uh grew up in San Antonio, graduated high school. I enlisted in the Air Force at 17 years old. Um and so right out of high school, 15 days after graduation, I went to the Air Force. I spent four years on active duty. I got out and I became a police officer in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And then 9-11 happened and I got invited back for a year, so I came back to do another year on active duty and um did another few years in the reserves, got out for about a year and a half, and then I uh gained a commission as an officer in the Air Force. And so I've spent the last 26, 27 years uh in the military. I've been active duty, I've been reserves, I've been guard, I've been active reserves, I've been active guard, and um and my journey is coming to an end. So I'm grateful. I tell people next to faith and family, the Air Force is probably the best decision that I've ever made and uh and ties into a lot of your pillars. And so I'll talk about that and try to weave that in when we get there. Uh parallel to that, uh I've served in ministry since I was 14. So I started preaching when I was 14. I was ordained uh to the gospel ministry at 18, and uh and I've served the last 30 plus years in ministry. I've had the privilege of pastoring two churches, both here in the Denver metro area. I pastored Lowry Community Christian Church for five years. I pastored Denver Christian Bible Church for 10 years, and a few years ago I relinquished my pastorate and followed what I believe the Lord's call to be into academic ministry. So now I'm full-time uh with uh Denver Seminary, where I get the privilege of serving as the senior director of advancement here at the seminary. In fact, I'm in my office now. I just moved in not too long ago, so forgive me, I don't have anything up on the walls yet or anything like that. Um, and I also get a chance to teach my doctor's in leadership, so I tend to teach in the practical disciplines, leadership, preaching, uh, that kind of stuff. Um probably a significant part of my journey is with race and uh ethnicity. And so um I've had some pretty uh forming experiences around this that has created uh a big burden in my heart as relates to the racial and ethnic divide that we see uh in our country, in our society, in the world, historically, so on and so forth. And I look at that and my heart has been to mend that. My heart has been to be the bridge, uh, if you will, um, between a lot of these, or excuse me, across a lot of these ethnic and racial divides and conversations. And I think God has given me a platform uh to do that. So I consult in this area. I own a small consulting company, and then also here at the seminary, uh, I think um, you know, by God's grace, and I say this in all humility, maybe my voice has been helpful in helping us understand this space and bridge some of the cultural communication gaps between uh black and white, and I say that in air quotes. I recognize race and ethnicity is broader than black and white. Um so a few years ago, I had an encounter when I was a young police officer, and um I uh I had an encounter with a white police officer who assaulted one of my prisoners. Um I intervened to stop this assault. So the the George Floyd murder was very triggering for me because I lived that. Uh I literally lived that. And so I intervened to stop this assault. And um and so I I broke this thin blue line, right? I broke the thin blue line. Um, there were some racial and acting factors that were at play that caused me to be treated very differently than my uh white counterpart was treated. And so uh that began my journey with race and ethnicity, but I didn't, I didn't really, I probably didn't give it its due attention, but it was the first time in my life where I was sure that I was experiencing racial and ethnic discrimination. By the way, what most people call race is really ethnicity, but for the sake of the popular conversation, I'll just use the term race so I don't have to keep saying uh both of them. And so um uh ultimately this led to a huge divide. Uh, I was ostracized from my peers uh because I dared to stand up for what was right. And for me, I wasn't standing up for a minority in my mind and heart. I was just standing up for what was right. You know, take prisoners who are in custody and beat them. And uh and so it was a no-brainer for me. Um got crossways with my department. I wound up having to sue my department. Uh, I did win the case, they settled a day before we were supposed to go to trial. Uh, but that effectively uh ended my law enforcement career. I could have gone on to be a cop or a federal agent somewhere else, but I just didn't have it in my heart after that. And so um I did some other things, uh, got into sales. I spent you know a few years in sales, pharmaceutical sales, medical device sales. Uh ultimately my sales career is what brought me to Denver. Still in ministry this whole time. Um and after getting to Denver, about a year after I got here, I started pastoring my first church. Uh, five years later, I planted at Denver Christian Bible Church. I attended, uh, did all my seminary training here. I did a Master of Divinity at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, which is now Gateway Seminary. And I completed a doctoral ministry at Denver Seminary in leadership. And so that's a little bit about my academic journey, uh, my ministry journey, my vocational journey. More important than all of that, uh my family. I'm married to uh Kenna. Uh she's uh uh a graduate of North Carolina AT. Uh and so about this time she would say Aggie Pride and uh and also Liberty University. She's an educator by trade. So she spent the last 20 to 25 years as a teacher, as a uh a teacher effectiveness coach, as an assistant principal, and now she works for a national consulting firm where they consult different districts around the country on pedagogy and administration. And she absolutely loves it. She was born to teach, uh, but more importantly than that, she is uh just a fabulous mother. If I were a kid, I don't think you could ask for a better mother. And uh, and both of us now are grandparents to one granddaughter who's four years old, her name is Zaya, and uh and she's still perfect in our eyes. So that's a little bit about my journey, man.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, I love it. Yeah, you you will always be perfect in Zaya's eyes. Yeah, vice versa. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, she cannot be. So um thank you for sharing that. And thank you for for kind of walking us through uh that you know, I do want to jump into some of the um, you know, the race stuff, and you know, like you said, it's mostly ethnicity. I uh went into to uh and did a a training, a diversity training back when you could do diversity training, right? Uh with the with the Inglewood Police Department. And oh my gosh, yes, I I was enlightened in a big way. Um but before we do that, maybe we can talk a little bit about uh your the identity. Like you said early on that at five years old you were you were no you knew you were called, you were called to the ministry. Did everything in your life just shape you towards that? Or was I mean like how did you become the can we tell me a little bit about your family and stuff that just helped you become this man that by 18 you're you're preaching and you're or 14, I guess you said you started preaching and yeah, tell me your identity.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, I don't know. I wish I could give you some story, you know, that um uh you know, where a journey, a discovery that didn't it didn't happen that way for me. I mean, obviously I have discovered deeper parts of my identity over time, but at five years old, probably before I could, you know, uh read very well or or do math very well, I I just I had this in my heart. You know, it's just uh it was there from birth, you know. Um legend in my family has it. Obviously, I don't know this to be true, but one of my older cousins tells this story that uh what the day my mom brought me home from the hospital, that my grandmother walked into the room where I was, uh, laid her hands on my head and said, you know, this boy is going to be a preacher. Now I don't know if that's true or not, uh, but but that's the legend in our family, you know. And so for me, it's just always been there. You know, it's just and that's been honed over time, but it's just always been there. Were your parents in the ministry? Or were you No Wow No? I now have several cousins who are. Uh but uh but no, my in fact, my mom and dad were Muslim uh until you know two or three years before I was born. I mean, I grew up with pictures of Elijah Muhammad and Muhammad Ali in my house, you know, he and my dad were friends, you know, sitting at our dinner table. Uh I remember pictures of my mom in in full Muslim garb uh and regalia. And so uh now my mom was raised uh in the Christian church, but she followed my dad into the nation of Islam, and they spent you know 25 years there or so. And uh somewhere on the journey, she found her way back to uh to Christ before I was born, or two or three years before I was born. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:So was your exposure because mom was taking you to church on a weekly basis, or was your uh talk to me a little bit about the the exposure that you know, grandma, I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, unquestionably, man. My grandfather was a deacon in our local church, you know, my grandmother was a church mother. Uh, and I tell people, man, we we went to church, you know, probably four or five days a week. Okay. The weekend church regimen for us started on Friday nights, you know, so Friday night, Saturday night, all day Sunday. And that doesn't include, you know, all the other events throughout the week. So yeah, we were, I'm unapologetically, you know, born and reared in the church or what we call a pew baby. And yeah, that was a big part of shaping my identity over time for sure.
unknown:Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:So later on you go to the Air Force, and now you're getting military experience and you're and you're trying to figure out, okay, this is were you trying to be like a chaplain in the military, or you just said, hey, I'm I'm going to the Air Force, I'm gonna learn what like skills that were you trying to learn there that you thought you might do later in life?
SPEAKER_00:No, I want to be a I want to be a cop. Okay. Um, you know, I had a mentor in high school, Doug Hallmark, he was a white man, still a mentor of mine uh to this day. And Mr. Hallmark, I remember him saying, Hey, you need to consider the air or the military. He was an old army ranger, turned police officer, turned teacher. And I encountered him, I was taking a law enforcement elective in high school, and um, and he started talking to me about the benefits of the military. He said, You can't be a cop until you're 21, but you can be a cop in the military, you know, at 17, 18. And so you really should consider the military to give you money for college, you'll get experience, so on and so forth. So literally, uh the next week, my high school girlfriend and I went out and joined the Air Force and uh and both did careers. We didn't wind up together or married, but uh both were career airmen and officers. And um and so, no, now when I came to be an officer, I commissioned as a chaplain. Uh, I didn't I didn't stay in the chaplain corps, you know, I was pastoring on the outside, and um, you know, it was good, and and by God's grace I was successful in that realm. But I made my way actually back to security forces. And so um I've served, you know, three times as a squadron commander. I'm now a deputy group commander, one uh combat tour. And so uh no, I didn't I didn't go in to be a chaplain, I went in and be a cop.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. Yeah, that's so cool. When I think of like I can tell that that you're a person who really works hard on the things that make you better, you know, and and when we think about the lives of maybe just some of the other folks that are part of our community, how did you learn to, or how much time have you spent working on yourself? And then like what where did that come from? Where you were, you know, you were hey, you were gonna read, you were gonna study, you were gonna not do some of the things that the rest of us all do, and you know, like spending all your time at a you know, football game or playing basketball all the time, or which all those things are nothing wrong with those. I don't want you guys to think that I think you don't do that, but you also took time out to work on you. Maybe kind of walk me through that journey uh with you that that kept you always wanting to improve.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You know, if I'm honest, uh Dr. B, I I think the most honest thing I can say, well, maybe let me give you a little bit of an analogy that'll help it make sense. My father-in-law was a world-class track athlete. Uh he um through junior high, high school, you know, broke and set new records in his all of his events. He he's almost 80 years old, and to this day, uh many of his records still stand from high school and college. Um and so he, I if I didn't say this, he went into college ranked 16th in the world in his uh in his primary race. And so when you talk to him about that, you know, hey dad, how'd you do it or what were you doing? His answer is, he says, John, we were just running scared. He said, Man, we didn't know that we were setting records or we didn't know that we were, you know, making history or or what have you. I mean, he was an Olympic contender. He says, we were just we were just running scared. And I think that uh analogy describes my life in a lot of ways. You know, just running scared, meaning I was just trying to do the best that I could at whatever it was I was doing, uh trying to live with passion. Yeah, there there are some sacrifices that come along with that. You know, I'm not gonna miss a um, you know, something's gonna make me better to watch a football game or a basketball game. I'm not wired like that again. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But more importantly, man, I want to give credit to God and God's grace because whatever people see in my life that they would call successful, I can almost assure you that it wasn't some intentional strategy that I had. You know, I was just trying to do the next right thing that I felt like God was leading me to do, gave him my all, um, you know, try to be the best that I could be. But man, I don't have any formula like I read a thousand books, or you know, I get up and I read two hours a day, or you know, you hear these things, these formulas, and I always wonder, uh, do you really? You know, I don't know. Maybe you do. Uh, but but I don't, you know, um my life is much more um unsure, you know, it's it's a lot of grace and just saying, uh Lord, where you lead, I'll follow. And I've I've tried to do that. So gotcha.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, but you did go through getting your master's and you got your doctorate. And um, maybe tell us a little bit about that journey. Was it something that you just thought always that you would do, or is it something that just as you learn more, you said, Hey, I need to keep going. What were your thoughts there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, undergrad school was uh Doug Hallmark telling me, Hey, you need to get a college degree, you know, and um and then once I became a vocational pastor, right? So once this was no longer uh I'm I'm just preaching, but now I'm a pastor, I'm leading people, you know, man, just by that time I had enough role models around me to realize, okay, I need to get some formal training. And so I relocated to Denver. It was the first time I lived in a place where there was accredited theological education. And this is before online education, you know, so this is early 2000s. So there is no online program. You know, University of Phoenix was doing it back then, they're about the only ones, but there was no widespread, you know, online training. And so I get to Denver and uh literally I start seminary almost at the same time that I started pastoring my first church. Oh, wow. And so um, so I'm bringing, you know, this, what I'm learning into the pulpit and into leadership every week. And that was good. You know, I grew a lot during that time, I learned a lot during that time. And uh it was in my master's program uh that I knew I wanted to teach. I've always had an affinity for teaching and for truth and for learning. And I knew if I was going to be, you know, teach on a serious level or or be invited to teach, that the doctorate was going to be important. But man, it took me 12 years to finish my doctorate, you know, just between military obligations and family obligations. And um, you know, it took me 12 years. And so I'm grateful that um that God gave me the strength to get through it. I wouldn't advise that, by the way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I I'm similar with you where it just took me, you know, I I didn't know when I started my doctorate, I was teaching at the uh university. I was teaching at Azusa Pacific University before that was at Cal State San Bardino, UC Riverside, and then San Diego State. So I'm teaching it, but I'm teaching educational technology, right? I'm teaching teachers how to utilize technology in the classroom. And back then, you know, the late 90s, you know, it's way different. We were teaching like overhead projectors and PCRs and then the internet came. Uh, and so they told me if I want to stay in this position, then I needed to get my doctorate. And I'm like, well, I don't want to get my doctorate right now, I wasn't ready. And so I started the process because they told me I had to, and then I started my own business, and then I could, you know, so I went back and forth and doing it. So I know you know, if I had to go back, I would have I should have just finished it. Although uh what I did finish is a lot easier because I had access to things that were the technology and the internet, and the libraries went away because when I started it, there was a library and microfiche, and you know, having to go up there and sit in these quiet rooms. And I'm an extrovert. What am I doing in a quiet room in a library? You know, so I I just so but it is a discipline to be able to do it for 12 years. Uh, why you not only uh the part that you that you left out of there, not only why you were starting your ministry and shirts, you had a family, right? So you know, the family is they they want they want stuff, right? They they want dad to spend time with them. Yeah, let's talk about that just a little bit. Uh, because I love asking this question because you know, when we start talking about family, we start, you know, we know how important it is. At least I I have yet to meet the person who doesn't think that all children should have their mother and their father as part of their life, and how important it is to be to have that and and for kids to grow up, uh, knowing both sides of the family. But what we don't talk about all the time is what does it mean to be a dad? And how does that change our trajectory or change who we are as men when we're serious about that responsibility of being a father? And now all of a sudden you have this this young life that is dependent on you for whatever you're gonna train and teach it. And and did that change who you were a little bit when you first became a father, and what does it mean to you to be able to be that dad?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it absolutely did. Um, but if I'm if I'm honest, it didn't change me enough. Um, not because I dismissed it or not because I didn't care or wasn't present. I was all those things. There's just things that I didn't know, you know, especially as a young father. Um, you know, I had my first my first kid when I was 18. Okay. And um, and so you know, what I what I tell parents, dads now, you know, that I pastor, I spent all of my working life or I have spent all of my working life trying to give my kids what I didn't have. I wanted to make sure that they never had to worry about clothes or shoes. Or, you know, I grew up in a time where you had one pair of what they call Sunday shoes and one pair of school shoes, you know, where you had, you know, a pair of jeans or two and and uh you know some little church outfit or two and and that was it, you know. And so um it would be it would be unfair to say that we grew up poor. I used to think that, but now that I've seen true poverty, uh that would be that would be disingenuous say I've never had a hungry day and I've never had a dark day, you know. Uh my mother worked hard to make sure that that we ate every day and that we had lights and heat. That was about it, right? I mean, we didn't have a ton more than that. Um and so I didn't want to be, I don't want to burden my mom with things like new shoes, new clothes. So I just kind of you know went with it, right? I was I didn't complain, but I grew up thinking, man, I never want my kids to have to worry about that. And so I've always worked two, three jobs to make sure I could give my kids the things that I didn't have. And now, as a little older, hopefully a little wiser, what I say to parents is your focus should not be giving your kids what you didn't have, it should be teaching your kids what you didn't know. Um and and I, if I could do it over again, I would have spent a lot more time. And I did spend time with my kids. I was present for the games, recitals, et cetera. So please don't misunderstand me. But what I didn't do, again, because I just didn't know how to do, I didn't even know that I needed to do it, let alone know how, is I didn't spend this time talking, rehearsing life, pouring wisdom, kicking knowledge, uh, anticipating scenarios. I didn't spend the time doing that. But, you know, we have a gift in that um I feel like God's given us another window with some of our young adult children to do that. And uh, and I'm trying to take full advantage of it, and I'm grateful that He's given us a second chance to do that. And my kids have done well and fine, and you know, we haven't had any major issues, no criminal issues, and you know, that kind of thing. So I'm grateful for that. But I see some areas where I just could have poured more into them had I known that's what I did. You know, I grew up thinking, and the way I the way I learned was watching people. You know, so I grew up thinking if I expose my kids to the right thing, if I'm a good role model, they'll learn well, you know, and it's like uh that's only a piece of the okay uh of the equation, you know.
SPEAKER_01:So I love that because a lot of times we just have the conversation you know, based on you know, stuff versus time or material stuff versus time. Yeah. But for you to add on that piece of learning and understanding is so big. When I when I think about our our young folks today, and you know, and I I'm doing a you know, I'm in technology, right? So I'm gonna do an AI seminar here on the 18th and talk about, you know, I just wrote a book called the uh relationship versus AI and talking about how the AI generation is gonna grow up. And it's no longer about knowing stuff, right? It's about being able to learn, you know, and so when we think about, well, at least to me, I mean, maybe I'd love to get your thoughts on that, but when I think about how are we teaching our kids if we're just buying them stuff or we're just you know, that helicopter. I was reading something uh the other day where they were saying parents are now going to job interviews with their kids. And I'm like, I'm thinking as an employer and as an entrepreneur and as a business owner, like if a parent shows up, I'm gonna like, are you counting on coming to work every day too? Yeah, if you are, then I get to hire both of you, I get two for one. But that's it, like 25% of parents have considered not just going to sit in the lobby while they go in, but to actually go into the interview and advocate for their kids.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, I hadn't heard that statistic. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:That that, but yeah, so when we're thinking about as young dads that are watching this and thinking, you know, the mistake that you said, well, not you know, obviously you were there for your kids and they're doing great, but if you could have you know put more into them on that side of it, maybe what kind of things I mean, you you're talking to young families and that kind of stuff. How do we teach our kids how to learn?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh, time. You gotta spend time and real parental intimacy. Man, and I see this, you know. Um, I'm just gonna say it, you know, the white community I think understands this better than we do. Yeah. Uh and there's some historical reasons for that. It's not by accident, and I'd love to talk about that because you say that, you know, I I don't want people to hear what I'm not saying. Yeah, please. And so, but I go to these, for example, you know, I go to church conferences, and these, you know, these young white brothers who are there, they've got their three-year-old there in tow with them. They're teaching them about the conventions now, they're teaching them about the social issues that we're voting on as a convention now. They're teaching them how these processes work, you know, meetings and decorum and order, and they're teaching them that. You know, I go to the golf course and and they've got their three-year-old out there on a pudding green and they've got their own putter. And I'm like, man, I just didn't know that stuff, you know, as a as a young father. I just didn't know that's how it worked, you know. And so I think as black parents oftentimes we are accustomed to hustling on behalf of our kids. We don't want them in poverty, we want them educated, we want to give them a better life than we had, you know, and unfortunately, sometimes the cost of that is the parental intimacy that we neglect. And so, man, my advice is if brothers are listening, is to get your kids and spend time doing nothing, right? Cooking in the kitchen. Uh, if you're watching a football game, sit them down and explain it to them. If you're, you know, um, if you're reading a book, um, you know, give them a book to read while you're reading. Um, if you're balancing your checkbook or balancing your budget, talk to them about money and how this works. If you're using a credit card, tell them what it is. Every single aspect of your life, we need to be introducing our kids to and teaching them about it. Every single aspect of it. You know, and again, man, I just didn't know it. Now, let me tackle this other side because I don't want people to hear what I'm not saying. There are historical reasons for this, and this is part of what I did my doctoral work in. And um uh there is a reality to the fact that some communities have been advantaged and others have been disadvantaged, right? And what happens is those habits, those uh those um behaviors that we have learned, we pass on inadvertently, ignorantly, unknowingly, good and bad. Everyone does it. Everyone does it, right? And so uh when we think about our community and the historical disadvantages that we've had, uh we've got to talk about the whole picture, right? And I say this to people when I do consulting work. You can't talk about the state of the black family unless you're talking willing to also talk about historically how black families were sold and pillaged and ravaged and rummaged and you know, and disenfranchised and separated. Like you got to talk about the entire picture. And that's kind of one of the um foundational pieces for my work and my thinking around this is history. We have such an ignorance of history. When I say we, I'm talking about everyone now, you know, we especially in the West, in North America, uh, we have such an ignorance of history um that uh people who've been advantaged don't know how they got there, and people who've been disadvantaged uh may not know how they got there, and almost no one is doing any thinking around how to bridge those gaps and make up some of those deficits. And so um, so I I think I see it for what it is, and I'm just trying to do my part to rectify.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there is still, oh my gosh, you know, as as you're um talking about that and thinking about how we unpack it. Um, you know, my dissertation was on experiences versus potential, hiring black administrators in schools, you know, and that, you know, how do we move up when you never get any experience because you become that professor or that teacher who can handle the other kids. So we need to keep you in the classroom there, so we're not gonna put you as an administrator, you know. But then then I take these men to to Alabama, and I feel like and nothing, I I guess I don't know because I'm in the South and I'm in Birmingham, and I feel like I'm in 1970, and I feel like the there's still some of the same, you know, the segregation that continues to go on. I mean, I see parks and stuff where people weren't allowed to be in, and then you know, we go to Selma, and you know, I've seen the movie, but it's a whole nother thing to imagine what it was like to walk across that bridge, you know, and then not, and then people literally, you know, trying to kill you, and then you go to um, you know, the in Montgomery, you go to the the Brian Stevenson Museum. I don't know if you've been there yet, but I've been to the African-American Museum in DC, which is amazing, and it's you know, it's a celebration, and you got you got Beyonce's music, it you know, all of the wonder wonder of what it means to be black in America, but then you go into the Montgomery into the Brian Stevenson, and the first screen is this ocean that just says, you know, and it is about all the things that you're talking about that broke up the family, that took the family apart, that didn't believe, and you go, Yeah, how do you do this without including all that and say, Well, we're all just the same right now, because we're not. I mean, you know, the the the history and the things that are part of our our DNA, and you know, my dad's telling me my dad's now 86, and he's like, Yeah, I we you know, we had he was in Kansas City Missouri. He's like, we didn't ever cross the line to go on the white side of town, you know, like ever. It was, you know, and then when we did, we were at colored drinking fountains. My mom talks about you know the clan showing up to in California, you know, into the my grandpa took care of the horses, and he's like, I you guys are riding the horses that I take care of. I know who you are, you know, could come outside and because you're you know, your son talked to a white girl, you know, that's part of all of our history. Yeah, so how how do you reconcile that? I mean, you're now you're a police officer, and I talked about, you know, you know, the police officers I went to train, and you know, they're talking about, well, we're not gonna go into you know, they're saying, Well, I hate going to this Section 8, you know, section of houses, it's just the mean minorities in there. And I'm like, this is like 2020 too. Wait, yeah, yeah, and this is your belief system. So, so how do you reconcile that with what we hear now, especially with all the diversity stuff and all the things that we're hearing, you know, taking books and stuff out of classrooms and you know, just yeah, give me your thoughts.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I think this is good, man. Um, I think my short answer to how do you reconcile it is I don't know. I don't know that I cracked that code yet, but I will tell you how I approach it. Okay. And that is there are people who live on either extreme of this argument. You know, I say, let's just say, for the sake of conversation, 10 to 15 percent, you're not gonna change their mind one way or the other. That's not where I spend my time, right? I want to spend my time with the 70 to 80 percent of the people who I think want to get this right. I don't think the average person is racist.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I don't think most people wake up every morning wishing for your demise because of the color of your skin. Yeah, I do think most of us are race ignorant. Yes, yes. We're not racist, but we're race ignorant. Yeah, and so we lack understanding about the historical and cultural and sociological factors that have brought us to where we are. Um, and so um when you see some of the things that we're seeing now in uh you know on the national stage and some of the beliefs that are being perpetuated and some of the ignorance and and dangerous practices, quite frankly, uh it breaks my heart, man. It breaks my heart. Um, you know, the reinforcing of stereotypes. Uh there are some people I firmly believe who would be content to rewind the tape to you know the mid-50s or 60s. Um and that's that's scary to me, that's heartbreaking to me. It's infuriating to me at times. Um, and and I think in a lot of ways, and I hear sometimes well-intended even black folks, they'll say, Well, we've been through worse. Well, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. The difference to me is there was a time when we didn't know, right? We were still trying to uh get there, achieve, you know, whatever. Well, now it's like we've experienced a certain amount of progress, and now there are some who are intent on watching our regression. Now, the good news is I really don't think that's the majority of people. Yeah, um, but those who I think fit that description wield a lot of power and they have the ability to influence a lot of legislation and policy and practice. And um, and that's that's bothersome to me, man. I I think we're living in a time where everyone, because of some of the role models that we see, has been given permission to be their worst self. And um, and I just refuse to give in to that. Especially, you know, I'm trying to be the last, you know, little bit. I've I've really said I'm gonna be really intentional about not leaning into that. I'm gonna be who I am in Christ. I'm gonna try to love people well, I'm gonna educate people. Now, don't get me wrong. Uh, one thing that I do do now is uh I will challenge the stereotypes, I will challenge ignorance, I will challenge bad behavior, I will challenge disrespect, you know, in a godly way. But I just I refuse to give in to hate, I refuse to give in to bigotry, I refuse to, I refuse to give that back to anyone who in their ignorance chooses to give that to me. I just won't do it. Yeah, that is so cool.
SPEAKER_01:When I think about, you know, and as I'm traveling back, you know, into the south or I'm traveling to the north or into Texas or whatever, and I see the modern day church, and I see, you know, as I go in, I'm a I'm a chaplain over at the Spaulding Rehab Center, and so I, you know, I get to do my 20 hours a month of just listening to people, and I love it to death. It's just, you know, it's like it's my it's my it's my downtime. But then at the same time, I I start hearing like how religion becomes more important than relationship, and all the things that have been done in the name of religion in the history of time, right? Yeah, not as on faith. How as a pastor, how as a uh you know, a doctor that works in you know divinity and works at seminary and and now is starting to deal with this internet thing that has these algorithms that pull people in directions that could take them away from a relationship with God. I mean, just because of just the algorithms themselves. How are you dealing with that? How what are some things that that you're doing or teaching that is helping us with that relationship?
SPEAKER_00:Relationship with one another or with God? Both, I guess I would say. Yeah, I think one of the first things people need to understand is most of the stuff they see on the internet is not real, it is propaganda. Um is not real. Um, and I I know this for an absolute fact, right? I know that there are countries, our adversaries who have uh plans to divide America from within using the internet, and that's all open source uh information. You know, you can you can find that in a lot of different credible places. So we we have to understand that there is intentionality behind this um for uh for a lot of different reasons, most of which are not positive for us, you know, as colleagues and friends and brothers who have to work together and live together and shop together, right? Like there are people in this world, both in this country and outside of it, who have a vested interest in pitting us against one another. We have to understand that the internet is by and large fantasy land, by and large, you know? And so people have to take it upon themselves to be responsible stewards of information, right? To find true information uh in in places where they're interested or around subjects that they're interested in, uh, to not pass along things that aren't credible, to fact check for themselves, so on and so forth. Like there's some responsibility that we bear in this. Otherwise, we're just you know, we're just like a bunch of sleek sheep, you know, being led to the slaughter, man, with one another. It's ridiculous, you know. Um and so that's part of it, you know, and then yeah, I I I think with every good thing, there's a shadow side to it, right? So the internet allows for the gospel to be spread further faster. But the the shadow side to that is it also allows for, you know, clown behavior to be to be spread further faster, maybe. And it's like, you know, any simpleton with the microphone, we want to title a bishop or an apostle or a leader or a pastor. And um, that's one of the bad parts about the internet is it makes the barrier of entry a lot lower into these places that really matter, and some of which have eternal consequences, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it just seems like we attack, or you know, as a society, we attack and it's probably you know the enemy and everything else that's part of what runs our planet, but it just seems the more that you find folks that are doing good, the more attacks, and the faster they attack them, and the more I mean, how how do we guard ourselves or or you know, I I know it's in learning and and finding these credible, but it seems to be so hard. Somebody asked me the other day, like, you know, watching the news, just you know, and I'm they're trying to give me a newspaper, and I'm like, nobody reads the newspaper. I haven't read the newspaper in 15, 20 years, and I don't watch newscasts because of the things, but but I still have to get credible information, right? I still have to, you know, have these this relate. Yeah, just your thoughts on on that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, go find it, don't let it find you. Okay, right. And what I mean by that is you're doing research on a subject, or you need to know, you know, uh some information for one reason or another. Go where you know you can find credible information, do your own research, so on and so forth. When I say don't let it find you, and all of us are guilty of this, right? It's this thing right here, just mind-numbing scrolling all day. We're not guarding our eyes, we're not guarding our ears. This is actually one of the things I'm working on. My family and I are, excuse me, we have a Bible study every week, and and uh this is one of the things that we're working on, you know, is just not doing that, not just um, you know, uh mindlessly uh giving ourselves to this and being led around by every sound bite, every news clip, every reel. Um, and so that would be my best advice there, man.
SPEAKER_01:But we get a chance. I mean, we don't have we don't have time in this podcast to be able to do it, but I started one called the Fireside Chat, and I would love to just sit down with you in this. Hey, what are 10 things that you guys are experiencing your Bible study or you're experiencing with your folks that you're talking to that we could do uh to be very mindful? Because I I just have the belief that okay, I got this device, but I truly don't know how to use it, right? Where's the class that teaches me or the you know, we think common sense, right? But we all know common sense isn't that common, right? But where's the okay, how do I how do I make sure that when I pick this up at night or I pick this up in the morning, that the things that I'm doing with it aren't the mindless scrolling and just putting stuff into you know who I am and my brain and this wonderful thing that God created for us, that I'm just allowing you know that gate to be fully open, not even realizing what is taking over my thoughts and my mind and the things that I'm doing. So I would love for you to come back. We got a few minutes left, and I would love, I know there's oh man, I could just talk, I I know I could talk to you forever. I'd love to just sit down there and have conversations with you over and over, but what didn't we get to talk about today that you wanted to make sure that folks that are watching or folks that you'll send us to or over time as as they watch this podcast that you want to make sure that that they know about?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, you mentioned one thing, you know, you said you were doing a tour of the South this year. Uh Denver Seminary, we have a program called Theology, Justice, and Advocacy. Okay. Um, and so we uh Dr. Patty Pell leads that program. I get the privilege to teach in it every year. And uh we actually teach a course on the civil rights movement and the church or the role of the church in the civil rights movement. Okay. And so we do that tour every summer. You know, we do Atlanta, Birmingham, Montgomery. Uh we did the Bryan Stevenson Museum this past year. Uh, we do all the uh, you know, 16th Street Church in in uh Birmingham. I mean, you know, and then of course all the historical places in Atlanta. And so if anyone's interested in that or hearing more about that, uh, you know, Denver Seminary.edu. We have some wonderful programs. And you don't have to be a pastor, you know, that's a that's some information out there that that isn't correct. You know, the notion that you should you have to be a pastor to go to seminary or to learn theologically just isn't true. And so I tell people if you know that you want to learn more about God or lead at a higher level, understand your Bible a little better, we have many certificate programs that you could benefit from. Probably at the top of that list is the lay ministry certificate program. You know, you learned a little bit about how to interpret the Bible and you learn basic theology and you learn a little bit about reading and writing at the graduate level and leadership and preaching and um spiritual formation, some basic counseling. And it's only two semesters, you know. And so if people want to know more about that, uh I'd love for folks to be able to email me. And my email address is real simple. You know, it's my first name dot last name, so John.moreland at denverseminary.edu. John dot moreland at denverseminary.edu. Um and so that's probably you know one big thing that that I would say uh that that maybe you know maybe worth passing on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I had no idea. I thought, you know, I'm thinking seminaries, you go to seminary because you need to get ordained and be admitted. But that you guys have all those certificates and things that are available. Uh, as we were just talking, what are some things that people could do? Uh, and that's one of them. And I would encourage you to go on there and look up, you know, what it is that they have and what can you dig into and do? And maybe we at some point we can team up and you know do our tour together or something, or you know, part of it or meet you there or part of it because there's so much. Well, what what I just got to know this because you now you you've told me you've been there. What was your probably your biggest takeaway from the the Brian Stevenson Museum when you went through it?
SPEAKER_00:Uh the numbers of people um that were trafficked in the transatlantic African slave trade slave trade. You know, the numbers of people that were trafficked and the numbers of lives lost are were probably my biggest takeaways. I don't think people, in fact, I'm confident that people don't realize how brutal slavery was and how far-reaching and long-lasting the effects have been, not only in the black community, you know, but in in uh you know, humanity. Dr. Joy DeGry does a good work on this, uh, has done good thinking around this in a in a work called Post-Traumatic Slave Syndrome. And uh and she doesn't just talk about how slavery has affected black people, but all of us. And um, and so those were probably some of my big takeaways.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's my, you know, the the segregation signs were a big thing for me. Uh my uh my wife went through with me. My wife's Hispanic, and you know, where it said, you know, no Mexicans, no Puerto Ricans, no, you know, Negroes, you know, allowed in this, and and how that was mainstream. You know, that was, you know, that was life for however long. I guess where I where I sometimes get confused in in not you know, when we think about post-slavery, and I think about the you know the 19 or the yeah, the 1900s and thinking how well we were doing before segregation, you know, before, you know, where it was or I'm saying desegregation, not segregation. So when we were segregated and we were in our own schools and we were teaching our own selves and we were uh you know testing super high, and then we desegregate, and then we have to drive on buses and stuff to other schools to be put in back of classrooms and not to be giving you know the same education we would have got when we were segregated, and then you know, to pull people out of homes and you know, make sure that the dads don't get to be part of the household if they're gonna get any money when there's no jobs and you know, so all that that came after uh as a result of the things that were before. So, but that's another conversation that we will get to. And I just so appreciate you being on uh with me today and and taking the time to share not only your experiences, but uh some knowledge of things that we have the ability to be able to do and go out and begin. And like I said, I would go to Denver Seminary if you're watching this right now and find a class that that you could take and something that could move you forward. Uh, do you have any one last thought that you would love to share before we end today?
SPEAKER_00:Man, I don't think so. You know, um, yeah, I don't think so. Uh maybe um encouraging people to keep their eyes fixed on Christ in this season. You know, don't look to politics or legislation or anything along those lines, um, but fix and focus on Jesus uh during this time.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, you think of all the um the division that I think is just even so much greater than it's ever been, uh at least in my lifetime, you know, that even growing up with some of the racial issues that have happened here in Colorado that I had to deal with as a kid, uh you know, I to me I just I think about my children and and how they're growing up in this such divisive world where information doesn't really flow to everybody, you know. At least I think when I was growing up, when you could watch Trunkite or whatever, I think everybody was kind of getting the same news, uh you know, because only a few channels, but now everybody's not getting the same news, everybody's not getting the same information there intentionally so. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's so intentional, and um, you know, so it's it's a matter of you know, prayer, and then it's also you know, like you were saying, is look for it instead of it looking for you. Yeah, so Dr. Morland, thank you. It has been a pleasure. Uh, this has Been your first episode that you've ever watched. Go ahead and hit the subscribe and notifications. We have so many more of just incredible folks that are giving us knowledge of how uh to make it through this life that we're living in. I want you to remember that you are God's greatest gift and He loves you if you allow Him to. And I can't wait to see you at the next one. Again, thank you, Doc. We will talk with you soon. Uh, this isn't the last time, I promise. No one even have to go to his house and stand and say we're gonna talk. I look forward to it, man. All right, so you guys have an amazing, awesome, just incredible day today.