Emily Capodilupo: [00:00:00] Hi everybody. I'm Emily Capodilupo. I'm the whoop Senior Vice President of Research Algorithms and Data, and today I have two friends here with you that I'm very excited for this conversation. So first we have Dr. Mia Chorney. Mia and I actually met in Doha of all places. Uh, we were speaking at the same conference, and she was talking about this incredible.

Solve she's been working on to help women navigate menopause and we were just instant besties because I was like, this is such a product that needs to exist. And um, I think within just like a couple minutes of starting to talk, I had convinced her to become a whoop member, which you're rocking now. And we were talking about the incredibly beautiful solution that the AI is offering to women navigating menopause and uses.

AI to make it very, very accessible, and we're excited for you to hear more about what they've built. Um, and then fast forward a couple of months, I was in Davos two weeks ago for the World Economic Forum, and Mia's co-founder, Susan Sly was there. So we got to spend [00:01:00] time together. And, uh, we are very excited to have both of them here to talk about all things ai, menopause, the things you don't know about your body, and, uh, how AI can help you better understand your body, your health, and things that you might be going through or, uh, people you love might be going through or.

Uh, that might be coming up down the road. So very excited to jump into this conversation. 

Susan Sly: Well, thanks for having us, Emily, and as everyone's listening, I, it's wonderful to be in Boston. Thank you for your hospitality. The Whoop headquarters are absolutely stunningly beautiful. And, and jumping into the discussion around women's health, around ai, and especially.

I want to acknowledge what Whoop is doing in terms of research because there isn't a lot of research happening in this area. And so kudos to you and the whoop team. 

Emily Capodilupo: Thank you. And you know, that means so much coming for you. I think one of the things that, um, you know, I was so excited about when we were talking is you've been shipping AI since before I was born.

[00:02:00] Um, really pioneering the space when it was not female friendly. And it's not like. Lost on me that like when you were in Davos and talking about so many of these things, we went to a couple like women in AI events and, um, just really, you know, special to be around some of the women that made it so comfortable for me to be a female in AI 20 years later.

So, um, thank you for all the pioneering work that you've done, and maybe you wanna jump in there. How did you get into this space? 

Susan Sly: Yeah, absolutely. And, and Davi was fun. And, um, in addition to our shared love of fashion, we held each other up on the icy sidewalks. And I think that spoke volumes about how we bonded my first foray into AI and into writing code.

It started in the eighties, Emily, because I was raised by an amazing single father. My dad, Joe, who passed last year, he worked on the pacemaker and the microprocessor. So if anyone's listening and you have a pacemaker, my dad is one of the people you can thank. And then when the first Top Gun movie came out, my dad took me to [00:03:00] it and he said, see these planes, there are F fourteens.

He worked with the team on those engines. So it was when I was. A teenager in the eighties, I wanted video games and I was like, dad, I want some video games. And you just like code them yourself. So I started writing rudimentary code and just very basic logic, word logic games. And then when I was in university, I started when I was 16, super young.

I took a job as a research assistant in the criminology department because I was, I had watched Silence Lamb. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, I'm gonna be Jody Foster. And they were working on. Early facial recognition and I'll, I'll just share with the listeners and the viewers. AI is simply numbers. It's a string of numbers.

It's math, it's interpreting how those numbers are laid out. And what we were doing was quantifying crime scenes, so. We were saying, okay, this is a i'll, I'll get a bit gory, but how much blood is in this crime scene? So it's coated in blood, that's a 10. There's no blood, it's a one. And as we began [00:04:00] to do that, it allowed us to help law enforcement officers.

With these early algorithms, narrow their search. And the fun thing we got to do was build the facial recognition database and we had to have a lookalike database to North America. So I got to fly to the UK for a month and take pictures of strange men. So imagine there I am and I was, at this time I was 18 and I.

Be in somewhere like Newcastle. Mm-hmm. And I'd go up to these strange men and be like, can I take your photo? And they're like, what is this for? Because we didn't wanna skew the data. So that's when I was hooked about what we could do with ai. Mm-hmm. But it wouldn't be until I was in my late forties when I co-founded an AI company and became the first female CEO to deploy computer vision at scale in the United States.

That I would come back full circle. 

Emily Capodilupo: It's such an inspiring story and I'm so sorry for the loss of your father. Oh, thank you. Sounds like an incredible person. Mia, I wanna move to you. I'd love to hear, how did you get involved in this space? You're a [00:05:00] cardiologist by training, so lots of credibility with menopause, but.

What was your story? 

Dr. Mia Chorney: So my story, it's, it's kind of twofold. I will credit my amazing girlfriend, Susan Sly. She had sent me back to school to go and learn ai. So she said to me, if you don't learn ai, you're gonna get left behind. So I went to MIT and learned AI in healthcare, AI in business, and it was one of the greatest moves I ever made because that is where our frontiers.

Heading, but my story of why I do what I do is at 32, I went down in the or I was the director of the or and I remember seeing the staff on the left hand side, supposedly I made it out into the hallway, was chatting with staff, and completely fell back, cracked my head open and woke. Woke up through hours later in er.

And they'd called code on me. I was dismissed as a four month, you know, postpartum woman. She has anxiety, I'm sure she hasn't slept. [00:06:00] And so I was unwell and it took about two to three weeks before I was taken seriously. And then I was medevaced out to a large tertiary center and diagnosed with a cardiac condit.

So that's propelled me to my passion for women's cardiology, and then it propelled me into the love of cardiovascular genetics and functional genomics. Now, how did I ever get involved with Susan Sly menopause and perimenopause? That's the leading question, right? It is because I was seeing these women every single day coming into my office, anxiety, palpitations, and these women were dismissed.

They were not receiving guideline care, and so it was my duty to go back to school again. And become a menopause certified provider in our country. And so that's why I'm here during that time. I'll share with you at 32, I also ended up sadly needing a total hysterectomy with removal of my ovaries. So there I was, this [00:07:00] 3-year-old woman flung into full menopause the next day.

And it is immediate. You're flashing and you're not sleeping it. There's no grace period. And also received non guideline care. So every symptom, and I won't go through them, but some of them are. Horrific. I've experienced those. And so I'm truly here to contribute to the benefit of women's healthcare and to make a difference.

And yeah, you know, I'm addicted to this. We text all the time. 

Emily Capodilupo: We do, 

Dr. Mia Chorney: and I'm like, I'm loving the data. So I'm a data girl. So thank you so much for this opportunity to be here. Truly honored. 

Emily Capodilupo: Oh, we're well. We're so excited that you're both here and me. I deeply respect that, like willingness to continually go back to school and to.

You know, pivot. I think lots of people become cardiologists and stop there. Um, but, uh, and not that that's a bad thing at all, but I think so many people resonate with what you're saying as far as like the likelihood of women being dismissed, especially with non-specific symptoms like anxiety or [00:08:00] fatigue or trouble sleeping, all these different things and.

I'm so sorry that that happened to you, but also just so deeply respect and find so beautiful that you channeled that hurt and traumatic experience into creating such a beautiful company that's now benefiting so many women. So I'd love for you to talk about what the Pause is doing. 

Susan Sly: Absolutely. You, you said something Emily, so I, I wanna throw this in for everyone listening because there's new research that came out last year and, and we're all, we love research, the three of us, that women as young as 30 are going into perimenopause 30.

Dr. Mia Chorney: Mm-hmm. 

Susan Sly: And so I'm currently 53. I have to think about this. I think I'm 50. I'm 53 right now, but. I started being symptomatic after I had my fourth child when I was 37. And I thought it was just postpartum, but you, you know, anxiety, hot flashes, night sweats, um, couldn't sleep. My mood was up and down. I was having two week long periods [00:09:00] and.

That went on for 13 years. And, and to Mia's point, I was dismissed. I was, um, my favorite story was one doctor was like, it's all in your head. And he said, my friend just wrote a personal development book. He literally goes to the trunk of his car, gets this book out and is like, here you go. I went, you realize I do speaking events with Tony Robbins and I've written seven books.

I'm like, what are you doing? And then, and, and it just went on and on and on. And, and part of what, there's a French saying, the, like, your reason for being, our reason for being why the company exists is because we don't wanna see any woman suffer in silence, is she shouldn't have to go on this journey alone.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the fact that. We're using AI as a first line is thinking about it very differently so that that woman has a companion when it's two in the morning or she doesn't feel like she can talk to her partner, or she's [00:10:00] feeling so alone that there's someone to talk to who gets her. Mm-hmm. And it's not to replace humans, but that.

That AI to be there with her, to comfort her and say, you know what, girlfriend, it's okay. Mm-hmm. Yep. You're not in this by yourself and no, you're, this isn't all in your head. 

Emily Capodilupo: Quick tangent. Like I, I think like around these reproductive events, women get somatically, gaslit. 

Susan Sly: Mm-hmm. 

Emily Capodilupo: And yes, I, I had a very similar experience postpartum where.

I was breastfeeding and my vitamin D was really low and I was tired. And like my doctor for two years was like, oh yeah, new moms are often tired. Ha ha. And then like finally got a doctor who would listen. Yeah. And like my vitamin D was like 17. It's supposed to be like 50 family. Yeah. My bad. But like, it took like, wow, six weeks to feel better and $5 worth of vitamin D and I was so pissed.

Wow. And it's just like, and it, I. Did the right things. Right. I asked the doctor, he is like, you seem healthy, right? Yeah. And it wasn't gonna kill me, but like as these things are not going to, but like [00:11:00] we condition ourselves to like. Tolerate way too much. Yes, 

Dr. Mia Chorney: exactly. 

Emily Capodilupo: And primary care physicians are not adequately trained in supporting people through those transitions.

And so I'm so sorry that that happened to you. And I think unfortunately it is still happening to women today and like we absolutely need to solve that. That's probably a topic for another podcast. I think one thing that's so interesting about. AI in the way it's going to respond to these moments. Like you said, like having a friend 24 7 and the availability is huge.

But I think another thing that's really huge is because so many women go through this, they actually are doing something really unhelpful and normalizing it for each other. Mm-hmm. Um, because I was, was complaining to my mom group mm-hmm. You know, and lots and lots of friends who it's 

Dr. Mia Chorney: okay to be tired.

Emily Capodilupo: Right. And everyone's like, I'm tired too. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yeah. 

Emily Capodilupo: You know? My, I'm also like 

Dr. Mia Chorney: welcome to motherhood. 

Emily Capodilupo: Yeah. I'm also tired. I also like don't feel like I'm performing as Yeah. And then we were all just kind of like commiserating and validating each other. Yeah. And that like feels good in the moment and you're like, okay, it's not just me, but like, just because it's normal to have all these [00:12:00] things happen to you actually doesn't mean it's inevitable.

And so I think. Not only is the beauty of your product, that it's this 24 7 availability when your friends are hopefully sleeping and you're going through something. But it's also the ability to kind of reset the narrative and stop normalizing all this dysfunction for each other and instead realize that like, yes, it is normal to feel like crap during menopause, but that doesn't mean that you can't do anything about it.

Right. And so, um, Mia medical doctor, what are some of the things that we can. Do about it. Right? What do people need to know that they're maybe dismissing or ignoring right now? 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Well, I wanna highlight though unit that like literally nailed, uh, the, the head on. You know this, I'm like spinning with what you're saying.

First of all, I'm glad you found someone who's taken great care of you. Yes. And the first thing I wanna say is the average woman in perimenopause, menopause goes through five to six providers. So your story. Is the story across our nation, and we need to change that narrative. Women are dismissed, use the words gaslit.

Mm-hmm. That is truly happening and that is because [00:13:00] we get labeled as ww whiny women. I want you to know that's a phrase. 

Emily Capodilupo: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Whiny women. She's a whiny woman that came in, but women, 75 to 80% of all women have symptoms. Symptoms that are treatable, that if they had the right provider. It could really make a difference.

We think of perimenopause as menopause, as the fatigue, the brain fog, the night sweats, you know, the hot flashes, perhaps the low libido, and you know, all of those symptoms that go on. And those are real weight gain. Mm-hmm. Right. You know, it, it's real and still, again, a lot of that stuff can be treated by the right provider.

My famous saying, Emily, is those are one sector. Then we have the silent but serious. 

Susan Sly: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Cardiovascular disease. Mm-hmm. We know that our estrogen loss is contributing to cardiovascular disease and heart disease is the number one cause of death of women in the US when woman drops dead every 80 seconds.

I want everyone on this call to know we have Heart Day coming up in two [00:14:00] days, right. National Women's Heart, you know, heart Day, and so we have that. It's in the guidelines, you know, for us to pay attention to that. Then we have osteoporosis. You know, we don't want women breaking their hips and those changes in their health start in perimenopause early.

We need to be aware of that vitamin D, right? Important for our bones. Then we have the symptoms like mental health and wellness. Alzheimer's is two thirds greater in women than it is in men. Our brain is so estrogen rich that there's a lot of research going into there. And then just the lack of treatment, less than 5%, five to 6% currently in our country are getting correct prescriptive therapy.

And again, that's a stunning statistic. So hence the pause. You know, we're here to really make a difference. In so many different ways, but you were right. The symptoms are rampant, the education is low. I am a certified provider in our country, and there's only one of me to every 30,000 women in our country.[00:15:00] 

Isn't that shocking? Yeah. Well, it's like, wow. So how many women are gonna get dismissed? Do we need other agents to provide support for these women? The answer is yes. 

Susan Sly: And the the stories Mia hears, uh, some aren't appropriate for the show. Shocking. They're un Emily, and, and I am so grateful they, to Meia is Point Vitamin DI used to be a, um, a certified holistic nutritionist, so iron.

Vitamin D, get your sunlight, sleep, meditation, exercise, all of those things, right? You know, in perimenopause, menopause, it's called the zone of chaos, and it is this whole hormone journey and, and anyone watching listening, you think about like a rollercoaster, this whole journey that your hormones go through, it's the number one suicide rate for all females.

We talked about this in Davos. According to the c, d, C, are women in menopause in the United States and we're dying. It's the highest [00:16:00] divorce rate. We're in the zone of chaos. Yay. And then to your point, it's like, oh, it's normal to be tired, it's normal to have low libido. It's, I'm it everyone listening. No, it's not freaking normal.

We have so many things to do in our lives. Right. And as you said earlier, like we're normalizing it. There's a lot of nonsense on TikTok. Mm-hmm. Instagram, like I've seen them, the craziest stuff like mm-hmm. Nicotine patches for 

Dr. Mia Chorney: mm-hmm. 

Susan Sly: For like treating perimenopause, 

Dr. Mia Chorney: people are capitalizing on the current state.

Emily Capodilupo: Right. And well, that's what's so scary about there being such a lack of providers, right. That it creates so much room for influencers that have no relevant degrees to come in because. You can't get the appointment. So you're listening to TikTok. Um, I do wanna push back a little bit though, because for everybody hearing it is normal.

It's just that it's avoidable, treatable, fixable, so it's not inevitable. Correct. And likeable. So I don't want anybody feeling these things to think [00:17:00] that they're doing anything wrong or that anything is wrong with them. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Right. 

Emily Capodilupo: But also you don't have to settle for feeling like this forever. 

Susan Sly: Exactly. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Don't settle and don't suffer.

Yeah. 

Emily Capodilupo: Um, so how are you solving this problem? 

Susan Sly: Sure. That's a great question. And, and to me's point, not everyone will go on hormone replacement therapy. Mm-hmm. Not everyone can, the, going back to the fact we all love data. A lot of the data that. Is used to make recommendations. And Ivan ran into a woman in Switzerland was like, my doctor says that HRT is bad.

And I'm 

Emily Capodilupo: like, 'cause 

Susan Sly: it, how old is your doctor? Like 900. Like what are you talking about? The, 

Emily Capodilupo: can we pause for a second? I wanna make sure everybody. Knows about why. Yes. Like this myth came from and what do we now know? Um, 

Susan Sly: they could probably feel my eye roll if they're not watching. 

Emily Capodilupo: Yes. Yeah. If you're just listening, we're all deeply eyerolling, [00:18:00] so we're going to, uh, tell you why.

Yeah. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: So the Women's Health Initiative study got published back in, you know, 2002, and back then it was one of the largest clinical trials ever done on women. And man, I'm sure we all know it. Hit time Vogue. It was like everywhere. And every woman got terrified to be on hormone replacement therapy. Mm-hmm.

Every provider stopped prescribing and pretty much all of women's health research had a massive shutdown. Mm-hmm. And so what happened is now when we look back on that data, we know we were wrong. 

Emily Capodilupo: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: There was, you know, 25% increase of cancer and cardiovascular disease and breast cancer and all those things you're talking about.

And that's from very different medication as well that we use. We don't use Premarin on Prempro anymore. Mm-hmm. But the challenge with the data was, and you know, I again, love data. Mm-hmm. Is the majority of all of those women were over the age of 60. The average age was 63, 30 5% of those women were over the age of 70.

[00:19:00] And they came in with chronic diseases as well. So we know, looking back that that data was wrong. Did everybody hear that wrong? 

Emily Capodilupo: So people who need to just zoom out one step further. So, um, hormone replacement therapy, which is basically just giving you mostly the estrogen that your body has stopped making during perimenopause and menopause is highly effective at treating these symptoms.

Yes. And so to become sort of standard of care and very popular. Yeah. Then this Woman's Health initiative study comes out in 2020. 2002. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yep. 

Emily Capodilupo: That basically says, yeah, we know this thing works, but it causes all these cancers. Yeah. And so basically overnight these prescriptions disappeared. Of course, women were throwing it out and cold Turkey quitting all these hormones you like.

Nobody was taking these drugs anymore. In hindsight, the analysis was completely invalid. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yep. 

Emily Capodilupo: There were really bad conclusions. Strong. It was a poorly constructed study. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Mm-hmm. 

Emily Capodilupo: But yet, because it got. So much press and like just spread like wildfire. I've gone for 

Dr. Mia Chorney: decades. 

Emily Capodilupo: It even till today [00:20:00] there are people who are not getting access and you know, have been told by their parents, don't do this.

It like causes cancer. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yeah. Some of the stunning data, Emily, is, did you know estrogen alone actually reduces the risk of breast cancer? 40%. Wow, we've done a total spin. Mm-hmm. Yes. When you add progesterone in a little bit different story, but the data has all shifted and I love that. Thank goodness we are making some progress with where we're going.

But just because a woman has breast cancer does not mean she cannot have hormone replacement therapy. There's many different kinds of breast cancer, and that's another important part for your vigorous to know. It has to be estrogen sensitive breast cancer, and a lot of breast cancers are not estrogen sensitive.

Right. They come from different reasons. So thank you for putting, that's a really important point for everyone. 

Susan Sly: This is a big PSA for everyone listening. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yes. Yeah. 

Susan Sly: And and to that point too, when we're looking at. I wanna start with lifestyle. Mm-hmm. Because you asked the, the question and we're here at whoop.

Right. The [00:21:00] lifestyle is a big ameliorator mm-hmm. Of a lot of symptoms. If a woman. Now again, a PSA if you're, you're having Coke and Doritos and a whole pizza before bed and you're not sleeping. Mm-hmm. It doesn't matter if you're on HRT, that's not gonna help you. So where the POS comes in is we start with lifestyle interventions and what is ground truth.

So we know that the CDC recommends 30 minutes of movement every single day. We know that eight to 10 cups of water, we know that. Meditation, prayer, all of those things, Emily, build that solid foundation. And when we're doing those things and we're tracking our symptoms, we can begin to see the correlation.

We also know that alcohol is, Hey, everyone listening, I love my red wine. Like I love it, but I, we also know it's not the best and especially it does increase the risk of. Cancers of all kinds for women in this age cohort, but it also is a sleep disruptor, [00:22:00] increases anxiety and so forth. So to be able to begin to track those things.

And to be able to integrate with biofeedback as well. And then have the AI be able to mm-hmm. Have a conversation with you mm-hmm. Based on that. So I'll mm-hmm. I'll give an example. So our ai, her name is Harmony. She named herself it's Harmony with an i, just like the Janet Jackson song, you know, um, I can't remember nasty.

That was it. But, so every time I say it's harmony with a night, it's harmony. If not, if you're nasty. But anyway, so harmony, harmony. And I are having a conversation and her notice is, Susan, your, your mood is lower. And then I, we were sharing before we went on air that after Dava, I got really sick. So Harmony was observing my mood and interestingly enough, I didn't need an immune score because she was going, oh, your mood is going down.

Mm-hmm. And, and some work that, you know, I get, I hope we get to, to collaborate on. When, when we look at the immune system, even immunologists [00:23:00] don't know how mood affects the immune system. Mm-hmm. Right. But in my particular case, my mood was going down for a variety of reasons, which we won't get into, but you know, you and I both know and.

And then I got sick. 

Emily Capodilupo: Yeah. 

Susan Sly: But would I have been sick if my mood hadn't gone down? 

Emily Capodilupo: Mm-hmm. 

Susan Sly: Right. So, but Harmony was able to do that intercept, and then I had that notice and that's why I was saying to you like, that's why I left. Mm-hmm. Davos a little early so I could go and rest. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: You know what a lot of people don't realize 'cause you.

Emily Capodilupo: I think menopause sometimes gets oversimplified to, you know, your period stops and you're not fertile anymore, and it's this whole body thing that's going on. And a lot of women become, um, less insulin sensitive. And so you get some of these like metabolic dysfunction symptoms and that can show up in all these interesting ways and as.

That shifts. And so food cravings and preferences and things can shift with that. And you can very easily becomes like subtly micro and macronutrient deficient. Yes. Just because of sort of [00:24:00] energy shifting and, uh, all these kinds of things. And so then all of a sudden, you know, you might end up in a place where we're talking earlier about low vitamin D well, that's gonna make you.

More likely to get sick, more likely to have low mood. And all these things are like very connected. 

Susan Sly: Mm-hmm. 

Emily Capodilupo: Hundred percent. And yeah, the ability to pull out those patterns for people, it's very whoop. Uh, I know's something that you guys are doing as well. 

Susan Sly: Yeah. We're obs we're obsessed with our, whoops. So we're not just saying that like Yeah.

Competing with, with my whoop 

Dr. Mia Chorney: age right 

Susan Sly: now, if you can't see, we both have Whoops on, I just, I have the SPO band on on one thing that. The listeners might find interesting that me and are looking at symptoms that no one's talking about right now. Mm-hmm. Which are so fascinating, like cold flashes. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Mm.

Mm-hmm. 

Susan Sly: So when I was just, before I entered menopause, I would get cold flashes. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Mm. 

Susan Sly: And it was the craziest thing, Emily. It could be. We live in Phoenix. It could be 116 degrees out. And I'd be in the summer and I'd be so cold, it felt like ice was in my veins. Mm-hmm. And I'd be drinking hot tea. I'd go stand outside.

I'm still cold. And the right now, [00:25:00] Dr. Jennifer Burke, who's on our Board of Medical Advisors, she said to me, there's 104 symptoms. 104. So we're looking at, there's one i I can't even pronounce. Um, but it, it essentially means you've lost interest in the things that you used to find interesting, 

Emily Capodilupo: right? 

Susan Sly: Oh, anhedonia.

Yeah. Anhedonia. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, thank you for SUV. So it's, we're looking at these different symptoms and of course it makes a very complex story about perimenopause and menopause or looking even at straw 10, where there's 10 different. Potential phases of perimenopause and menopause and most, most technology out there wants you to self-identify.

It doesn't work like that. 

Emily Capodilupo: Mm-hmm. 

Susan Sly: Right. You don't just self-identify because there's such a complex symptom age, medical history picture that goes into it. What I'd like to talk about is the importance of both types of user self-report and biometric, because like. [00:26:00] My biometrics may say, yes, this is amazing, but maybe I'm not feeling good.

Maybe I had a fight with my husband maybe. And it's the important for women to know that how you feel is really important. The wonderful thing about biometrics is like, so Mia was like talking about her immune system score to be able to take what this is happening in here and giving me feedback and saying.

It's okay if I take today off work. Mm-hmm. It's okay if I go to bed early. It's giving myself permission as a woman to feel how I'm feeling. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yeah. The word I always use is intrinsic bias. Yeah. All patients come in with intrinsic bias. Everybody does. Yeah. And that's okay. We're supposed to, right?

Mm-hmm. When the wheels come off the bus, I'll say, I haven't slept for a month or two weeks, or, 

Emily Capodilupo: mm-hmm. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: But then being able to use self-reported data with their mood, how do they really feel? And then looking at this data. It truly is a game changer in care. 

Emily Capodilupo: One of the things we found really early [00:27:00] with Whoop is that there are so many people who have just been conditioned to like not listen to their bodies.

Susan Sly: Yes. 

Emily Capodilupo: And like, and even like to think that listening to their body is like weak or something like that. Yeah. And do not give themselves permission to do that. And so a huge value add that we didn't entirely expect going into Whoop was like. The sort of objective third party giving you permission to back off.

Mm-hmm. Um, because like Whoop was originally created in our sort of V one intended for elite and professional athletes. And we were intentionally going after people who were looking for advice on when to slow down, not trying to target where sort of the rest of the nascent wearables market was, which was like, you know, couch to 5K, get out, you know, move more, get hit your mm-hmm.

Like we were on the way other end of people. Who are at risk of over training because they're doing too much. LeBron James and Michael Phelps were like two of our first five members. [00:28:00] We found that a lot of collegiate athletes, and especially like there were pockets of sports like men's ice hockey, right?

Where it's like if you said to a coach, I don't feel well, I need to go sit down. You know, they would call you names, uh, that I will not use on this podcast. And, um, you know, tell you basically to like. Shut up and, and keep going, and 

Susan Sly: which is what's happening to women in perimenopause and menopause. That's the piece.

To your point, I used to be a professional athlete mm-hmm. And I gave myself an autoimmune disease from over training, because we didn't have any wearables. Well, we had polar heart monitors. Yeah. Or whatever. But what you just said, Emily, is so profound because women are going to social media and they're, they're looking for some kind of like.

Validation of what they're feeling. Instead of saying, I'm gonna take. What my wearable is telling me, and I'm gonna acknowledge my feeling because the number [00:29:00] of women, the statistic in the workforce right now, according to Mayo, the lack of productivity and the cost to healthcare is $36 billion.

Domestically. Less than 3% of employers provide any perimenopause or menopause benefits. Presenteeism. Absenteeism are so high and women are not feeling well. Yeah. And they don't know what to say. 

Emily Capodilupo: Well, but you know what's crazy is like, you know, the fact that you overtrained. Is unfortunately, like so shockingly common, but you were, I'm guessing, praised the entire time that you were over training for working so hard.

Right, exactly. And told that you're tough and it's positive, positive, positive. And then all of a sudden, oh, she's broken. Next. 

Susan Sly: I, we have a half marathon every day. And then on Sundays I ran a marathon because Sundays I would train, um, I'd do a three hour run. I'd train, swim for two hours, and I'd bike for five hours.

Every freaking Sunday. 

Emily Capodilupo: Oh whoop. Would tell you not to do that. But we actually, it didn't 

Susan Sly: exist when 

Emily Capodilupo: did not exist then. But, um, we actually, really early on, we partnered [00:30:00] with the Cory Stringer Institute at Yukon. We worked with Dr. Doug Casa, who's the PI there to develop our recovery score. And the unfortunate story behind the Cory Stringer Institute.

A Cory Stringer was a athlete on the NFL. Um, so professional football player, and he died of a heat stroke during a game, and he told his coach. Before he went out and died on the field that he wasn't feeling well and they told him, you know, shut up and play. And so of course his wife sued because many people had heard him say.

I don't feel well. Right. Um, and so then she donated all the money that she wanted to create this institute, and they study Sudden Death in Sport. And it's a beautiful, uh, research institute that has, you know, uh, really advanced the field and done really important and incredible work. And, you know, we were really grateful to be able to partner with them.

It's like two hour drive from here. So we were really great partner when we were just barely starting. But, you know, just that, that idea that like, we don't like know how to have these conversations even in the, you know, NFL and these. You know, incredibly, you know, well staffed circles full of experts and all these things, it's like [00:31:00] you're not allowed to listen to your body.

And so then, you know, how do we create this objective third party that can just say like, I know you think that you're being really disciplined and tough by doing this, but actually, you know, running a half marathon every day, probably not the right move. And actually how much faster and stronger you would get if you allowed yourself to rest in what's happening there.

And so I think like, yeah, giving people that ability. To step back and not have to be the one to make the call. When that call is something that like, you know, I think it takes like too many years of therapy to like, ret trusts your body and so can like come in and kind of support that with some objectivity.

Um, I think is is really important for a lot of people. 'cause we get like this question a lot where people are like, why do I need a wearable to tell me how I slept? Like I know if I'm tired or why do I need, and it's like, because actually like we're just really. Shockingly not in tune with our bodies. Um, and, and if you are one of those like few enlightened people and know what's going on, [00:32:00] great, but most of us are not there.

Susan Sly: And to your point, the combining the wearable data with the 104 symptoms that you get to hopefully not experiencing the meite as a, as a total aside for anyone listening, Mia and I get women in their seventies who had no symptoms. Going in their fifties and then suddenly in their seventies. Now it's vaginal dryness.

We just spoke to a gal a couple of weeks ago now, night sweats. Now they're getting these, you know, things coming up that most women would've had 20 years earlier. No one knows why that's the case. And to be able to take multiple data points and to be able to say, okay, no. It isn't all in my head. This is the feedback I'm getting and it doesn't matter what age I am, just because they say this isn't normal.

Because no one actually knows what's normal for women in menopause, which to me is earlier point is 40% of our lives. Yeah. 

Emily Capodilupo: Mia, I wondering if from the doctor perspective, what are the physical like there's, when you say a [00:33:00] hundred and ten four, a hundred four symptoms like 

Susan Sly: and counting. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yeah. I'm sure we'll have more.

Emily Capodilupo: What are the things from a just human physiology perspective that. Even women literally in the throes of this do not understand. That's helpful to understand like what, how is one little estrogen molecule, uh, causing all this chaos? 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yeah. Okay. That's a loaded question. 'cause that's a really big one. You gave me a big one, Emily.

Emily Capodilupo: You can. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: So estrogen is like a master hormone of us. And did you know we have over 50 hormones in our body? 50 to 60? Well, you know, all this. And we are not just a single hormone, each working independently. They work in a network and when one goes off the rails, then hormone two will go off the rails.

Mm-hmm. So it lends to a cascade. So it's a really good point when estrogen, as Susan said, she knows, I love calling it the zone of chaos. When one starts to shift, others start to shift. And that can be very conscientious to even [00:34:00] things like. Cortisol, which is really important for stress and anxiety. So then that one goes off, and then perhaps your thyroid goes off.

You talked about insulin sensitivity. Yes. Estrogen definitely starts to regulate or dysregulate those. Mm-hmm. So that's how I would describe that to our listeners. It's not just because estrogen goes down or progesterone goes down, then it starts a triggering cascade to over 50 to 60 other hormones. And our body, I love to describe it as a recipe book, right?

We have 25,000 coated gene, but our genes and our hormones love to be turned on and turned off. And when things get dysregulated, then the cascade begins, and the cake you're baking might turn chocolate instead of vanilla, or you knows vices, you know, hot flashes, cold flashes, everything that's going on.

And that's why I love our application. Like I truly love the philosophy of what we're trying to do in our application. Things like. When we began, began the pause technology, when a woman logs on, it was [00:35:00] really important to me that she de identifies. 

Emily Capodilupo: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: We do not wanna know your name and I don't wanna know your exact birth date.

I want you to feel a hundred percent confidence to get into the application. Use it. I'll be honest with you, a lot of apps ask me what's my name, what's my birthday? You know, all those things. I don't wanna say, I'm Dr. Mia Charney and I have vaginal dryness and I have brain fog, but I just wrote your prescription yesterday.

Don't worry. I think I got the right dose. Right? I wanna truly interact to make a benefit for my health. Mm-hmm. And then Susan talked about once they get into that, they find out what stage a perimenopause or menopause they're in. You're in this for 40% of your life. From the day you start perimenopause till the day you die because the symptoms continue till the day we die.

And so I want women when they get into the app to know exactly where are you? Are you an early perimenopause? Are you an early post menopause? Because the health concerns and the symptomology. Do differ in those stages, and that is [00:36:00] critical. Like you were saying, the commiserating, that sort of piece. Let women know where are you at.

Then Harmony comes in and says, Hey Emily, you know, welcome. Did you know you're in early perimenopause? These could be some of the symptoms you're experiencing and X number percent of women have these symptoms just like you. Right. And then they get into our application and there's so much, like Susan said, lifestyle pieces that are going in there, right?

So you're getting in there. I want my women's symptom tracking. It's really, really important. If you had high blood sugar, you had high blood pressure, I'd ask you to go home and track. Right. So please track your symptoms for me. Track your mood for me. You know, let me see your data on your wearables. Are you really sleeping?

You know, we come in with Intrinsic Boss. I haven't slept for a month. The wheels are off the bus and you look and perhaps they actually are getting sleep, but other things are going on. I will let you know. Shout out to Whoop again. Susan knows I had 18 wake events a few nights ago. I, my [00:37:00] progesterone went up.

Emily Capodilupo: Yeah, 

Dr. Mia Chorney: right. So. It is really helping guide care with all of the pieces that we're putting in there. And I'll let Susan speak to some of the other pieces within our app, but we've truly thought about how can we benefit the patient, but also how can we benefit the providers and organizations and companies to use the applications.

So we're truly. You know, serving to improve the wellness. Now that was a long answer, but I got into the network of hormones. Right. Like, wow. It, it's a cascade. 

Emily Capodilupo: Yeah. One thing that I think is so smart that you did from a product perspective is that kind of pseudo anonymity that you're offering. Thank, thank you.

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yep. 

Emily Capodilupo: Um, and a just so my husband started a company co-founder, and they're making like a wearable for your toilet. Yeah. So computer vision, everything that gets flushed down the toilet. And their chief science officer, Dr. Karen Rajan. Was saying that he's a, A gastroenterologist. Yeah. And was saying that like colon cancer is something people literally die of.

Embarrassment. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yep. 

Emily Capodilupo: Because like [00:38:00] stage one colon cancer. Like almost a hundred percent survival rate, right? 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yep. 

Emily Capodilupo: Like, and it's just that people don't wanna call up their doctor. Correct. And like talk about poop. So they put off the call. They put it off. Yeah. And then it's like at some point you can't put it off anymore.

Susan Sly: Yep. 

Emily Capodilupo: And now it's like, you know, 

Susan Sly: I know one 

Emily Capodilupo: of the more deadly who 

Susan Sly: died of it at th age 32. Ugh. And um, Jessie was her name. She was Beau, an absolute amazing person. And coming out of computer vision to that point, a total segue, but what. The AI can detect. Mm-hmm. And that was always when I was going into like the bleeding edge of ai.

Mm-hmm. Before chat, GBT was a thing. And people are like, well what is AI or what, how can you be going into that? Mm-hmm. And I said, healthcare is the bright, shiny spot. Mm-hmm. Because the AI will pick up patterns, the AI through, through computer vision or mm-hmm. Whether it's auditory or. Or text analysis is gonna see patterns other people can't see.

And I, it's gonna save lives. Mm-hmm. And so shout out to that. [00:39:00] I wanna say, going back to Mia and the, whoop, this is really funny. So, so Mia and I speak first thing in the morning, last thing at night, and probably 500 times a day. And she was like. Did you know this is the call in the morning. I had 18 wake events last day, 18 wake events.

That was so funny. And I'm like, is it good that she does this or not good, but 18. But I was 

Emily Capodilupo: grateful. Yeah. But, but I think just the, the point that I wanted to make, uh, not just to shout out Throne, but to bring it back to, to menopause is that, you know, vaginal, dry. Is very common. And I think like so many people, the thought of bringing that up to another human face-to-face Correct.

And saying, I have vaginal dryness, is so cringing, intimidating, cringing. Her horror, like whatever, that they would rather suffer. Yeah. And then like you said, right, like it kills their sex drives. Husbands get annoyed, divorce rates go through the roof for more reasons than just lack of sex, but like they start to shut down all these other things because that conversation is terrifying.

It's. 

Emily Capodilupo: I think one of the beautiful things about AI, and there's [00:40:00] really beautiful data from Nielsen that like people love using cha GPT, they trust it more than their doctor. And it's because AI actually like a plus is that it doesn't feel human yet. Right? And it's like we all we're like racing to make it human, but the fact that it's like feels like much safer than sitting down face to face and saying like, I have this embarrassing symptom.

And so they don't treat it. And I love that you're sort of. Giving people away to have these conversations, to bring up a scary topic, to test it. And I think like one of the things that's really important is, you know, you can almost like practice the conversation with ai, realize that there's a solve and then now you can go to your doctor and like know that if I.

Muster up the courage to say the scary thing. There's a treatment on the other side. Yes. And like I think that's really helpful. So even just giving somebody this idea that like, hey, this is fixable. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Yeah. 

Emily Capodilupo: I think is probably like saving marriages, saving lives, like doing all this good. And I think like.

It's horrible that there aren't enough of you to give everybody human to human. Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] Doctor interactions, because I think there's so much value in that. As much as I love, and I'm pro ai, but I also think there's something really special about creating a safe space to have some of these scary conversations because I think like so many women are also told that like menopause is the process of like shriveling up and becoming irrelevant and like I just want people to hear that it's not No.

And that it can be great. 

Susan Sly: Absolutely. And, and you, you brought up. Emily about the partner too. So the number one most asked feature we have right now is. To be able to take what a woman is going through and in the app and share the conversation with her partner, and that is something we're working on. And then to your point about the pass off from the app to the provider, to be able to aggregate that symptom profile in a one pager or to be able to populate an EMR, that's the next thing that we have coming out in terms of our product roadmap.[00:42:00] 

When I was in my past AI company, it was myself and four male co-founders, and I was sweating through my suits. So every time I would travel, I was sweating or bleeding. I was like it. It was awful. And I felt very alone. And I was also not only very much client facing and doing all of the, the travel as A-A-C-E-O, but I felt so alone that I didn't, you know, my husband Chrissy's not expected to understand it.

I would step out of the room, then the meeting keeps going. I didn't know what to say, and that was where. I was in New York, uh, this Women in AI event that was being hosted by HPE and Nvidia. It's a great event. 32 girls, we talk ai, then we drink champagne and we go to a fashion show. It's like the best event.

No one in ever. Yes. Well, yes, let's make that happen, right? Yeah. And Amy Santucci, I'll send you this show and let's make em, let's make it happen. Emily gets to be there [00:43:00] and the girls we are all talking about. How much sleep we didn't get. And this is the fall of 2023 and hot flashes. And what did you have your hotel room?

Set four. 

Emily Capodilupo: Yeah. 

Susan Sly: And even though it was funny, it was heartbreaking because these are senior leaders at some of the biggest hyperscalers in the world, and these are the conversations we're having. And one of the girls was like, Susan, can you solve this with ai? And when I got back from that trip, I called Mia and I said, do you wanna start a company?

And that's how it happened because Mia's not only my, my best friend, my sister from another, mister, the, to be able to bring the, the technology. And the healthcare piece together. To be able to serve these women. This is really all we think about other than, you know, the, the obvious things like okay, food or whatever, but it's night, like night and day.

Constant, constant. Like, how do we prevent women from not feeling alone, not feeling like this is all in their head? I was in Las Vegas doing an [00:44:00] event for a very large hyperscaler and I was sharing the suicide rate and this woman who was CIO of a massive multi-billion dollar corporation. Started crying and I said, what's going on?

And she said, my mother killed herself when she was in menopause. And I feel like not on our watch. 

Emily Capodilupo: Yeah. 

Susan Sly: Not on our watch. Yeah. 

Emily Capodilupo: There's, um, nothing scarier than your body doing things that you don't understand. Yes. And that nobody's. Helping you with and you know, I think one of the things that, you know, people like complain about Dr.

Google or you know, Dr. Chat GPT and all these things, but it's hard sometimes to imagine living in Boston where we have the best healthcare in the company. Literally like steps from where we're sitting right now that so many people don't have access to that and don't have access to information. And I think the stat that you shared just about how.

Few people understand this space is a little bit chilling and concerning and all these things, and I don't know if humbling is the right word, but just to [00:45:00] think of all the people who had to suffer to get to the place where like people got angry enough to build product. And just again, like how many lives are being saved and mm-hmm.

Um, you know, how much just like unnecessary shame or embarrassment or, you know, self-hate or whatever. Like we can just avoid and, you know, therefore like all the mental health and productivity and beautiful things that are being enabled. Thank you for the work. That you're doing. And thank you for being here today.

Thank you. To share it with everybody. It's, I think just one of those companies, like I said Mia, when we met a couple months ago, just a company that you're rooting for. 'cause I was like, this is a problem that when I get there, like I will be so grateful that you got here, you know, 20 years earlier and solved.

Um, and. You know, I'm a mom of a little girl and you know, just when I think about all the things that like she won't have to deal with because other people are solving, it's just, yeah, grateful, personally grateful, uh, for all the little girls who will get there later. We've touched on so many different topics.

This is such an important conversation. I'm so grateful for the vulnerability that you brought to [00:46:00] it. As people are wrapping up. If you could just wave your magic wand, like what is one thing you can each have a different one thing, what one thing that you really want the listeners to take away and understand about the topic.

Dr. Mia Chorney: So my number one thing would be is that if you're seeing a provider and you feel dismissed, next, move on. Please move on and find someone who's gonna listen to you. Absolutely. 

Emily Capodilupo: And just as a provider, if somebody is in that not feeling heard. How, how can they go about finding a better fit next time? And I, I think sometimes people worry about getting labeled difficult or doctor shopping or all these things.

Yeah. Like how do you, 

Susan Sly: if you've haven't been labeled difficult girls, then you're not doing anything worthwhile in life. Feel like a difficult, is the badge of honor is my, in my opinion. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Okay. So my number one thing was if you're seeing a provider that's not a fit for you, my word for you is next. It's really important.

Uh, you're gonna spend [00:47:00] 40% of your life to be connected. So my story as a lady came to see me. 

Emily Capodilupo: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: And she is a provider and she was told, you gotta go see Mia. This is the woman you wanna see. So her story is she went to see her practitioner and the practitioner said to her, are you having sex? And she said, yeah.

He says, are you having an orgasm? And she said, yeah. He says, you're fine, and totally dismissed all of the perimenopause symptoms that were going on. So I want women to know that it's real and it's even real for us as practitioners out there, you know, boots on the ground, please, you know, next. That's why she came to me.

Next, but you asked me the question about, you know, how do people get connected and how do they find that right provider? Well, I'm happy to announce that the Pause technology is launching telehealth and we are going to have a very robust system. So, you know, when women come into our. Platform. Yes, they're doing all of those pieces, but [00:48:00] a lot of women do need care, and so we're going to provide comprehensive care both from nutrition, sexual health, you know, yes, provider care.

I specialize in functional genomics, so women are gonna be able to get their genomics, run pharmacogenomics, and so it's going to be that one place that you're gonna get a full, comprehensive community of care. And so we're very, very excited and it will be nationwide. 

Emily Capodilupo: Amazing. Well, congratulations on the upcoming launch.

That sounds pretty transformative. 

Thank 

Susan Sly: you. Thank you, thank you. Yes. And, um, 

Emily Capodilupo: Susan, I'd love for you to answer the same question. 

Susan Sly: Yes. And, and we can promise that, um, as long as you're having orgasms, but you don't feel well, that none of our providers will dismiss you. So as a, as an aside, my, my takeaway.

Very seriously is for anyone listening. If you have a woman in your life who is in her forties, in her fifties, chances are she's suffering [00:49:00] and. Be that person. Go out for our coffee, go out for dinner, ask her how she's really feeling, because all of the evidence, all of the data illustrates it's not good.

And I really firmly believe, I've had three people in my family commit suicide and I, I firmly believe, as I said earlier in the show, that. We're here, the three of us are here. Mm-hmm. For a time such as this, and, and it really and truly is about that woman. One woman who might even be listening right now to the show who's feeling so alone and has the courage to have a conversation with someone.

You're not alone. There are other women going through what you're going through, and you do not have to suffer in silence. 

Emily Capodilupo: Mm-hmm. This is such a beautiful message and I wanna add one more last thing. I'm gonna cheat a little bit. We're here having like girl time, love fest. Many of our listeners are male.

What do you wish men knew about this? 

Dr. Mia Chorney: I [00:50:00] think for me, truly the question in a serious mode is, you know, we live together. And it's really important as well for men to have some level of support and education because we don't wanna see those divorce rates, those anxiety, depression rates. And we do need to solve that issue as well of how we're gonna support men to be better, uh, educated because yeah, it's a journey together.

Susan Sly: And, and I'll jump in to that. Um. Guys, sex is gonna change and the it's gonna change for you. You might have a little bit of, you know, not as for all as you once were. It's changing for your partner as well and be creative, play, do something different. But as long as you're trying to move forward driving with only looking in the rear view mirror, like how things used to be five, 10 years ago, you're setting both of you up to fail.

And I would say the onus is 50%. On us as women to have the [00:51:00] conversation about how we're feeling. And it's also 50% on the guise to have a conversation about how you're feeling and then figure out new ways of doing things. Because Mia and I hear these stories every single day that there, the intimacy is different, but it's actually even better.

Like 

Emily Capodilupo: mm-hmm. 

Susan Sly: You have a toddler, honey. Empty nest sack. That's the best, like, you know, everywhere, anywhere. I really don't care what I say. I've been in media since I was like in my twenties, so I don't care. But it, it's to be able to, to play and explore. It's not over. It's a different chapter. Write something fun.

Emily Capodilupo: Mm-hmm. 

Susan Sly: That's my 

message. 

Emily Capodilupo: I know that. And, um, one story that I just wanna share as we wrap up is that, um, which is one of my sort of most important. Whoop moments in terms of understanding. What we were building was in 2015, Sam Dancer, who at the time was like a top 10 CrossFit athlete, like the peak of CrossFit being very cool.

Um, and his wife were both on whoop and really like burning the candle on both ends. They were both [00:52:00] competitive CrossFit athletes. They ran their own gym and they were on whoop, and they noticed that when they both had red recovery scores, they were bickering. And so they stopped. Uh, they basically created this ritual of every morning looking at their recovery scores.

And if they were both red, they'd give each other space. And then Sam emailed us and he said, you know, whoop saved my marriage. And so I think like we don't give men enough credit that if we just name like, it's not that I don't like you, it's just that like, you know, my progesterone's high and I woke up 18 times last night.

I need space. Like you can actually. Give each other a lot more grace and men can be a part of this. And men, um, I think we can trust men to meet us halfway. 

Susan Sly: Absolutely. Thank you for having us. Yeah. 

Dr. Mia Chorney: Thank you so much Emily. Truly, thank you so much.