Episode 4: Let's get personal

In Episode 4, we're delving into our relationship journey, both personally and professionally. As co-founders and CEOs, balancing business with family life has taught us invaluable lessons. We'll share highs and lows, including the challenges of juggling our roles. Stick around until the end as we chat about Empire and the lessons we've learned. Plus, we'll be addressing plenty of questions we've received from all of you. Join us as we reflect on how these experiences have shaped our partnership, offering insights into the delicate balance of love, work, and family.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Okay, today I am recording with my other half, Steve Buckmiller. I feel like a lot of people have encouraged us to tell our story. And so we've talked about doing this for quite some time. I'm just hoping maybe we can get some of the better stuff out, the stuff that people want to hear, because I think our story is really interesting. So for everyone listening out there, I think I'll give just a little bit of a rundown overview for those that maybe don't know us as well. So we are coming up on, we've actually already been married for 20 years. We um let's see, some facts. We actually met when we were kids. We were younger. Like I was 10 and you were 12, something like that. We have four kids of our own, uh, currently ranging in ages from eight is our youngest, and 19 is our oldest. Um and we have worked together for most of our marriage. Most of our marriage, yeah. So this looked like I know that you like to tell the story about uh us hustling and delivering phone books at one point in time. Um, we worked at pay-day loan stores together. We managed different stores. Um and then we got into oil filled together working with my family. And so I think that's probably a good place to jump in because I know that you get asked a lot of questions, and I'm gonna try to recreate those for you here, a little lifetime. So let's do it. Um, what is it like working with your wife? Why would you ever work with your wife?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

That is a good question, one that comes up a ton. Um I don't know. I think uh when I talk to other people about what it's like working with my wife, um my mind immediately just goes to like the things that I know, which is like you're really you're I don't think of you like my wife in the workplace. That's the part that I think makes it different, right? It's like uh I don't know, imagine working with your best friend. Uh yeah, it sounds cheesy and stuff, but uh that's really how it is. Um that's how I see it. Um, you know, one of the things that we laugh about a lot is like we take on different roles at work versus at home.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

I think we should deep dive that one here in a minute. But uh one of the comments or one of the points that you made, um that uh we don't think of each other as husband and wife at work. I think that's probably a big piece of advice for people trying to work with their spouse. I've actually had people, uh, either employees that have worked for us in the past or people who have done business with us um for more than a year, not having any clue that we were married, mind you. And they, when they found out, have felt a little duped or a little like confused. And obviously that's never the intention, but I think it's very important.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Well, it's important when you work with family in general, right? We've we come from working with family. I think it's very important to place the different relationships sort of not aside, but you and I have a dynamic as business partners. We have a dynamic as just, you know, our working relationship and our roles that are filled in the that we fill, and then we have our dynamic as parents, and our dynamic, obviously, as a married couple, but that's probably my favorite thing about us, not to get too far ahead, is that sort of ability to flow through wherever those are. Because I think if you're one rigid way and you try to show up at home or with your kids, and then again at work, it probably is going to be a little bit too much.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

It's probably overwhelming. And uh yeah, I I think of other couples that we've worked with too, and like the ones that seem to have you know a successful business career, you'd never know when they're at work that they're married, right? They operate, they communicate as if they're uh co-workers, right? And that's I think yeah, I think you're right, that's a big part of it.

SPEAKER_03 4:16

I think that working together over the years has been um probably the biggest story to tell is the sacrifices that we've made. And I think people ask me all the time, like this one's funny, but like, who's home with your kids? Who's taking care of your kids? Um, and you know, or how in the world can you guys manage being together that long? Um, and for me, I always have a hard time imagining what it would be like being married or being sort of, you know, different places during the day and then coming home in the evening, and you have your stress from the day, your stresses, you know, from the home life, and not having that perspective to what the other person went through during the day, right? Where we have that benefit, we get to say, I know exactly what you were doing today, I know the weight that's on you, I know it's on your plate, you know it's on mine. And so rather than going home and trying to like decompress or have the frustrations because you don't understand, you didn't see, you don't know how bad it was, you weren't there, you'll never get it. Like we don't thinkfully, we don't have that problem.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

And so, I mean, obviously, you know, it's an exchange, but yeah, there's a shared ecosystem that plays to our benefit, especially at the home homestead. Um, but on that note, you know, like when I think of our kids and how we've raised them, uh, whether it was intentional or you know, an unintended consequence, they're very self-sufficient more than most, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Which again, I like maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's not, but that that is helpful, obviously, that they can do a lot that that most kids can't do.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Um, yeah. I think they're also really used to each of us sort of popping in and out, swapping roles, right? Like um, dad's going to take them to things and then mom's going to take him to things. And a lot of times, especially as we've gotten a little further in our career, we've been able to do it together, which has been really fun. But it's not a, you know, this person is the go-to for this one thing. Um, except for I do think we get the pass by me to ask or pass by you to ask me to open something still.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Phenomenon is still like for sure at home.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

But um I think that's probably the other thing that most people are really surprised to hear is like in the workplace, people that know us professionally, they usually know me as the brash one or the difficult to get along with sometimes, the person that's gonna tell you how it is, you know, and and I'll like easily coin that by saying, you know, I'm the mean one and you're the nice one. It's like you're uh you're the golden retriever, which is what I've been saying lately, which just basically means that as people get to know you, like they can't not love you. They um everybody just you know really enjoys working with you. And I'm a little more firm on my boundaries, I'm a little more specific about how I'd like things to go. And so this dynamic that we've created in the workplace, I think opens up a big question for me that I've don't know that I've ever asked you to see your response here. So I'm gonna catch you off guard with this one. But I would gather that a lot of people ask you if it's frustrating for you or how you feel about the dynamic that we've taken on, which is more CEO, COO in the workplace. How do you feel about it?

SPEAKER_00 7:46

I mean, if I take the golden retriever mentality, like uh I'm indifferent about it. It really isn't something I I spend a lot of time thinking about. Um it also feels more natural than like uh you know, when you talk about like where's your comfortable place, where do you feel you you know derive your powers and superpowers from, it's uh you know, that's not my comfort zone to be in that CEO role necessarily. Um I think that's the other cool part about us is it's interchangeable when it needs to be.

SPEAKER_03 8:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Um, and we play off that a little bit, right? There's definitely times when I wear a more of a CEO hat, depending on the conversation or whatever's happening. And I would say the same about you um on the COO side, right? It's like help run operations.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Well, I think I think people see the titles, right? And they immediately go, Well, this is like a hierarchy or one poor person's in charge of another, right? And I think you kind of point back to marriage in itself. Like, is marriage ever really that way? No, I mean, at least in my opinion, it should be. It truly should be a partnership, right? But um, I think that what we've done really well is allow each other to have the space to kind of find what our strengths really are. And um, you specifically, I love to have people around me who are great collaborators, who work well with people, have patience that they, you know, they they love to train and educate and develop people and develop teams. And it's not my strong suit. I obviously love people. I love one-on-one time, and I also love my shut the door and have my creative think time and sort of my my space. And so I think it's really important for people, you know, whether you're visionary, integrator, where you fall on this scale, anybody that you work with to understand where you really serve the entity best, right? And to get the other people around you that have those balancing qualities. But to your point, uh, once we go home, that's probably my favorite part because I no longer feel, yes, that I have to be, I have to show up in that way or be that person. At work, I don't shy away from the difficult conversations. I have them. In fact, it's probably a little bit of a challenge of mine at times. Sometimes I need to just let the things go or learn which tough conversations you know need to be had, but I can't leave things suspended or hanging in an uncomfortable place. I need to, you know, smooth it out and move past it. And so that's really a lot of where I've settled in the workplace. And, you know, at home, I get to be the soft one.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

The kids come to me and you're the one spoiled and get uh treated, you know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

I think we both spoil them a little bit, but you are the one having the tough conversations, you're the one keeping everybody in order and um really calling the shots and running things. And so I think that that's something I obviously appreciate just as a female or as a woman working to be able to have that balance in my own life where I get to be a mother and I get to exert some of the you know softness and qualities that sometimes when you work seven days a week, you forget. I think it's weird.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

It's like uh yeah, I I can't explain why that switch happens. Like I've thought about this a lot, and like um, yeah, why do I feel more comfortable when I come home to just you know not afraid to yell at the kids because they didn't do their jobs or uh whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Um our kids think it's funny too, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah, they call it out. Um but then at the work, like work life, I I just don't have a desire to be that way. And it doesn't even it's it's just just not top of mind, and I I don't fully understand why that is.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

My observation would be that I feel like you we've talked about this, like a social battery difference, and I think that's something that people would be surprised to learn about us too, is that you get a recharge, you get uh your cup filled by being with other people and collaborating with other people. And so to be the person that people can comfortably come to, and you know, you develop them, it's your passion. Like I can see you come alive when you talk about those stories, and so I think that every day it gives you a little bit of that cup fill. And for me, the battery is wherever it starts with the day, and every human interaction that I have drains it, including my kids a lot of times. And so I've learned the older I get that I have to try to retain a little bit left in the tank so that I can be the person I want to be at home. But I think it comes down to, you know, you finding that pure joy and working with people. And I absolutely love people, but my most like the core of my pure joy in building a business and entrepreneurship, if I had to rank them, like first and foremost would be the creativity, feeling like I'm creating something or building. Um, and you, of course, you know, relate to that too, but it's probably more the dopamine chase of the day for me. And yours is a little different.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Yeah, that's there's some truth to that for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

So, what other questions do you get asked a lot?

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Uh, let's see. Um I get asked just our balance. Um, you know, you you hinted on it a little bit with the with the kids, but then there's also like our our balance and dynamic. Um, you know, what do we do on the weekends? Like, yeah, we talk about work a lot. It's pretty much number one topic combo is whatever's happening at work. Um, we obviously talk about our kids, but that's what I get asked a lot too, is like do you ever stop talking about work? Yeah, and when does that actually be?

SPEAKER_03 13:50

How do you find balance? Do you feel like we have balance?

SPEAKER_00 13:53

I mean, there's definitely times when yeah, we're way out of balance. Uh it's impossible not to be when when you do what we're doing. Um, but there's other times when we found really good balance, right? I think those moments in life or those sections in time or whatever is when I look back on it, like those those are wins, those are big.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Speaking of like looking back on being married 20 years, a career as long as we've had, building businesses as long as we have together, and four kids, I think that's probably a bit of advice I would give to somebody going through that process is like, I don't subscribe to the balanced concept. I don't think it exists. I think that if you I think that if you want balance, it certainly can exist in your life. I think that part of that recipe is a nine to five job or a job with really firm boundaries that could be drawn. I don't believe that balance is reality when you're trying to build a business and you feed that family based on how well you get the thing moving. I think it's seasons. I see our lives very much in those sprint seasons and those coast seasons, although I think we've probably been pushing boulders up the hill more than we've ever had a coast moment here or there.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah, I think I think the point there though is that you're always striving to get back into balance. Like, yeah, I agree. The journey kind of takes you off course, um, whether you want it to or not. And uh just a recognition of, hey, we're off course, let's get back in balance, I think is the key there.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

I think more than the term balance, what resonates more with me is this idea of just being present. I think when I've focused more on I'm home or even even bigger, we're all together as a family. We'll, you know, go on trips, which is a big one for us. And the trip separating, speaking of, you know, being able to separate, separating us physically from our house or our office is a big part part for me to be able to.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

That was a nice slip.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Uh separating us physically from our home or our office is a big part to being able to find the separation. And but yeah, be present wherever we're at. So be present with kids when it's that time, be present with you when it's time for us to have one-on-one time. But probably like a behind-the-curtain look is that uh you and I have a hot tub we have for quite some time. And speaking of like rituals, it is our nightly routine.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

It is the one consistent for sure, most consistent thing that we have, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Yeah, it's almost like I've heard of you know, couples having like a meeting time or meeting place. Like we do dates, we do those things, but the thing that we never bend from is that ritual. And it looks like kind of like our one-on-one meetings together, downloading from the day. I bounce ideas off of you or challenges or things I'm stuck on and get perspective and advice. Um, you do the same, right? We we kind of give each other that uh perspective, but also I think we do a good job being each other's um therapists. Yeah, therapist. But the word I was thinking of is more like devil's advocate, right? Like I think, I think we're not afraid to put some pressure on each other a little bit and challenge each other's viewpoints. And you know, a lot of times I come into that conversation feeling like I'm really right and leaving, realizing that there's a whole lot of other ways I can look at the situation, which I think is uh a great thing that you provide for me for sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Yeah, I think I think you know, when people ask, like, how how do you make that work? And and that's it, right? There's being a soundboard when it when it's time to be a soundboard, and um giving an opinion when it's time to give an opinion. We seem to have a good understanding of when those times are, and that's not to say it's right every time, but right um yeah, that hot tub time is like it hasn't always been that way either. We've we've had that time, it's just not not been so dedicated, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

It's probably been like I don't know, seven years, seven, eight years of solid, yeah. And I feel like that's one that'll I'll definitely continue. I can imagine doing that after kids are gone. Maybe some point after we sell some businesses and we have some different topics of conversation, but uh I think that yeah, that's like it's the equivalent of uh a high-level board meeting that's uh super obviously um laid back version, but it's done without clothes, usually. Sorry, neighbors.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

It's just our time to really kind of take a breath, and and that's where the good ideas usually come from, too. That's right. That's the think tank. Yeah, big time.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

And it is our marriage time and our parent time too. It's really we call that one sacred.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

But uh the things that are coming up throughout the week, uh the days, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

So thinking of our marriage or describing our marriage, how how would you describe it in one word?

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Uh I'm you're gonna make me think about that for a minute.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

You can think about it for a minute. I'm I'm totally ad-loving. That's not the question I was gonna ask. I was going to ask, do you think our marriage is healthy? Do you think our marriage is strange? And I just I'm gonna stick back to my first question, which is describe it in one word.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

I mean, I don't know why, but like the words like strange and unique and and those types of words come to mind. Um and and honestly, it's because you know, I look at our marriage and I look at everyone else's that we know, and I don't really see a lot of similarities. It's um it's it's it's unique. Yeah, I mean, is it healthy? Um, yeah, I think again, uh like anything in life and any probably marriage, right? There's there's seasons, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:57

Um definitely seasons.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

You know, we're in a I would say a good season now. We've been in a good season for a while. It's probably our longest run. Um, that's not to say we don't have those times where we're there's friction and rough seasons. Um, you know, but I think that's part of what makes us work is going back to that time to kind of keep each other in check a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Um so yeah, I think speaking about seasons, um maybe people would be surprised to hear this, probably not, but we work with a lot of men, and it's really not uncommon at all for men to ask advice for me, you know, not usually like outright and direct, but kind of like, what do you think about this? I think they see me as um, you know, more approachable when it comes to conversations of, you know, how dudes are, what happens in the workplace, and um a lot of it is, you know, I'll get things like my wife, you know, seems XYZ. And like my first question is like, are you still in the phase of having children and having babies waking people up all night? Because like for me, as far as a season, that was not, that was not my season. It's a long period, too, when you talk about it, like in a piece of life. I know I've told you this, but I feel like my 30s and heading into 40s are like like this massive weight has been lifted. I think some people go through that time of like early days having kids and building a family, and it's roses, but like it's not for me. Uh, we did this and I worked. Um, and I, you know, our early, early years of really pushing in our career, you traveled a lot more than you were home. It was like, I don't know, you did this weird thing in where you were like in Wyoming during weekdays, you came home one night, and that was when our first was came home on Saturday. Yeah, went back out on Monday. Then you did the offshore oil thing where you would go for three, four weeks at a time and stints, and sometimes. We got a call from you, um, somewhat announced, and you know, it was it wasn't it's not like we could text or you know, connect, and those times were super rough. Um, but I don't know, I look back on that whole period of life, and it's like I wasn't my most joyful self. Oh, that's where I was going with that. I remember during those times while you were working, right? Like I was working and pushing just as hard. It looked differently. Like we had babies that came early that were in ICU. I have memories of our second in particular. She came home on oxygen and taking her to my office with her oxygen tank as a premi newborn and trying to breastfeed a baby while working because I couldn't, I couldn't let anybody else, you know, take it. There was just not, there was anybody to do it. The work either had to be done, you know, or dun, dun, done. Like, or what else happens? And we got used to that very early on that we had to fully be responsible for our own destiny and for the own our own checks coming in. And we always sort of equally showed up for that battle, but it has looked very different over the years. It hasn't always looked like the last evolution, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Like I often think about that too. Like, oh, I wonder what it would have been like if we had hot tub time back then and we understood what that time was.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

But then it's like, you know, I I would have probably taken it for granted, not spent the time that was needed. And like I wasn't ready for it, is the point, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Mentally. We were really young too.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

So well, that version of me, you know, who was very unglamorous and super stressed and lacking sleep, but learning everything that I could. Um, you know, she wasn't the chick with long blonde hair that was more pink hair and out and putting herself on social media. It was like, it was an entirely different person. And I'm grateful that I was that person because it's allowed me to get to this point. But I think people see us and go, oh, it's kind of always been that way.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

No, yeah. That's what I was gonna ask you is um putting pressure back on you now. Are you the do you see me or or yourself as the same person that that that we were 20 years ago? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 24:18

So like absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

Yeah, we're totally different, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Well, I think this is funny. And we we kind of came to this realization, I don't know, maybe like four or five months ago together, but one of my first memories of you, I don't know if we were married yet or not. Our dating process was like what 30 days or so before we got engaged, just because we'd known each other for so long. But I I remember vividly us talking about what we wanted to do in the future and us kind of both really landing on, hey, we want to be our own boss, we want to run our own business. And I don't think we were quite married at that point, but we had found that alignment and it's funny, you know. I I'm into the weird things, and so I kind of think like, you know, did we manifest that lifestyle back then? Because there's no way we could have known all the things that were going to come. Um, I certainly didn't have the self-recognition that I do now, that is like, I'm unemployable. I have to run my own business and my own thing to have my own sanity. Like, I don't feel like it's a choice that I'm doing this by choice. I feel like this is the path for me, but I certainly didn't know that about myself then. And so we're similar in that way. I think we both we both have always shown up to we want to do whatever needs to be done, we're gonna do it. And we've always both been really at our core, aligned in how we see the world, how we see other people, our desires to serve other people, be just genuinely good people and be happy with the legacy that we leave behind in that way. Um, and so those things are obviously really important. But same people, like absolutely not. I think another thing that I commend you for, because I think that this was something you said, I don't know, maybe first five years, maybe even first year married. But I remember you commenting something to the effect of you felt like I was going to constantly create a challenge through our married life of keeping up with me, something to that effect, right? Because I move fast. And um, your sentiment of that was that I think that it's really important that we always make sure that we aren't outgrowing one another, that we stay connected in growth. And I thought that that was a really mindful thing to observation for the age and like maturity level. But man, I've I've watched you in the 20 years we've been married come from like you've always been great, you've always been golden retriever, but like I've seen you develop into so many different versions of yourself and push for so many things that you've accomplished and constantly blow me away. So that's been really cool, both as like your friend, you know, your partner, um, and your spouse.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

So yeah, it's like there's some core pieces of us that didn't change, right? Obviously, and um just to add to some of that, it's like uh you know, we both felt like I at least that was my kind of impression of us in the beginning, is we both had I felt like something to prove, whether it was to ourselves or to our family members or to the world, but like that we weren't going to accept the normal way of doing things, yeah for whatever reason we were aligned in that.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

I think that's kind of what drew us together a little bit in the beginning. Um, that underlying competitive spirit there that just wanted to do it a different way just because um I think that we were both um a little bit of black sheep in our family for sure. Looks different, but yeah. I think both of our families would say, yeah, they're the weird ones.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

So yeah, probably I would agree with that. So, what's the one word you would describe our marriage? I know my word.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

What is it?

SPEAKER_03 28:09

Um, friendship. And it's funny because I was scrolling Instagram late last night, I wasn't sleeping, and this video was popping up and it was talking about how um, gosh, I'm not even gonna remember it right now, but it was definitely speaking to me and it had this kind of top of mind because it was talking about how essentially a marriage is, or you know, how oh, that's what it was. Love in its love is friendship in its purest form, right? Like, um, and when you think of that as like the principle of when you meet someone, you know me, I feel like relationships with people, I probably feel them more deeply than most people. And I I think of them not in a silo of like this is a married relationship and this is a friendship, and they're all categorized. Like I just think relationships with people are deep and complex and beautiful and all those crazy things. But I do think that if something's built on the platform of friendship, like genuine friendship, and you're constantly improving communication style in a friendship, and you know, those other things I think just are so much easier and come and stay, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:15

I like that I like that word friendship. Um I don't know. I I still go back to like I know it's it's like not a good word, but unique is uh I can't get off of it.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

There's no good or bad. I think it's great. Yeah. So last piece of advice before moving on. What would you advise would you give to I would say probably the men out there who are like, I would never work with my wife.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

I would probably tell them, yeah, don't. If you don't then if that's where your head is at, you probably shouldn't. You're probably on to something. Um no, I get asked that. Like, there's definitely people out there that we know that that do work with their spouse, right? And they're looking for like, hey, you guys look like you got it figured out, maybe, because there any wisdom you can give me. So I'm I'm talking to that group, I guess. Yeah, those that do work with their spouse and they want to make it better. Um I think create time at home when it's just for you two um to to really just download. Um that time. I've learned to understand how important that time really is.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Um, even if it's nonsensical and you you don't really talk about anything. Just that moment to just be together for a minute. Um in a in a not so formal setting, too, I think is key, right? Where guards are down, emotions are down, like you're just yeah, where you can be present with each other, I guess, is the point, right? But for us, it's the hot tub. It doesn't need to be a hot tub, obviously, but highly recommend. I would I would definitely that's the advice I would give is like if you're gonna work together, great, um do those things, but carve out a specific time one-on-one every day.

SPEAKER_03 31:03

And I feel like I could go on this topic for a while, but we'll have to get some feedback and see if we should record another day. I do want to jump into um we both work in the solar industry. We have for quite some time now. I mean, it's really realistically only been, I think, like eight years. It feels like a lifetime. It feels like a lifetime. We've been in contracting for um about 20 years, electrical contracting. But solar, uh, residential solar in particular, I think is more like eight. Uh so we helping um running a family oil-filled service business was kind of where we were at before this. And we jumped into solar um and grabbed a hold of that really wild ride in 2017. Um, again, for context, for those that maybe don't know our backstory, I was CEO, you were COO of Empire Solar, which actually started as a DIY solar concept. Um, and we we were approached by what was our first sales dealer to kind of help us understand the ropes and immediately wanted to lock us into an exclusivity relationship to do no other work with anybody else. And we kind of went, that was probably one of my first tough conversations that um was not very tough for me, but it was uh we're not gonna do an exclusivity. We're actually gonna build out an entire dealer program and we're gonna take this thing nationally, and that we did.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

We did. Um I'm gonna go back to it a little bit because you just reminded me, but during that time is really when we figured out a little bit more about ourselves and the roles that we would fill. Right. Um, I I just I talk about this a lot and with you, but I don't think I've never really talked about it much with anybody else. You know, when we were first starting Empire, I took I took the the CEO type of role to get the business kind of going and have those conversations, and it didn't take long before I found myself in situations where the conversations were getting harder or they're a little more uh conflicting or just frictional, I guess is the best word. And I I my personality doesn't like friction in the workplace, like I don't like it. I like synergy, I like everybody to just get along. You don't like conflict anywhere. I don't like conflict anywhere. Yeah. Um, you saw this as a we both kind of recognize that hey, these conversations still have to happen. And you were more willing to jump in and just have them and get them over with, which at the time looking back was like critical in our establishing what we bring to the table, what we can do. That's not to say that I can't have those conversations. It's you were better apt, you were more apt to have them.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Well, for me, yeah, conflict is like it doesn't stress me out in the same way. I hate conflict as well. Like, obviously, I love getting along with people, but the greater force at play behind how I work is protectiveness. And you put me in this place where we saw this opportunity, we needed it for our family. We had been grinding for so long. We had ridden the oil-filled roller coaster, right? Like everybody calls the solar coaster. Well, we were in oil, and so this is really no different. But we had been, you know, up and down on that and not sure um if we were gonna make it or how it was going to work, and we had this opportunity, and and it was left and right people coming in trying to put us into a box or limit that or cap that opportunity and sort of put themselves in a position. And every time that's happened to me in my life, and especially magnified when it's happened to us or like our greater family, it sparks that protectiveness in me. Like, absolutely not. We are going to treat you fairly and you're going to allow us the ability to do that.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

That's like to be specific, right? I think this one specifically was we were we were about to sign our biggest opportunity dealer. Um, and he was pushing back. Um, I'll shout out Scott Hyde because I'm calling Scott Hyde out on this. Pushing back just a little bit on the pricing. And um me just trying to earn the business and trying to be Scott's friend and um be the nice guy. I wasn't able to articulate and negotiate in a way that at that moment in time, and and you just you just jumped right in and took care of it. And it was like, oh um, yes, you were more apt to have these convos. I respect that. Why would I get in your way? Like, you know what I mean? I think that's that's kind of where this path started really exploding because then it was like, okay, I can hyper focus then on just execution. Oh, absolutely in that sense.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

And I love that you use the word respect because that's exactly how I feel about the role that you feel. I watch what you do and how you do it, and I have respect for in a sense that like it's just not something that I could do in that same way. And I don't think one is in any way devaluing of the other. In fact, one is nothing without the other. If you're a weirdo like me and you reckon you relate more to where I'm at in this, you know that you're nothing without someone like this. Um, you know, the operators of the world always make um, you know, the the one who's the face look a little bit better all the time, right? Like um, it's just how it is. So I think that's really great. We were talking about um, I'm just noticing some of the questions I was gonna ask. Sorry. I feel like I really want to. I can just talk about the marriage part. I feel like I can just talk for days because I I don't know. Hopefully, someone out there finds it interesting. But uh, one of the questions I was gonna ask you is like, what do you think is the most obnoxious thing about me? This is a bonus.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, uh, well, you're super stubborn. I'll tell you that.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Uh that really piggybacks well off the last story.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

It's really sometimes uh yeah, that would be the most obnoxious thing, is like, hey, Abby, and having to call you out on being stubborn. Um this is that moment. But uh, you know, you definitely allow me to do that when when when it's needed.

SPEAKER_03 37:13

And so absolutely. I love that you keep me in check. I love that you uh don't just agree with all of my nonsense. Well then now I gotta ask what's my obnoxious uh the most obnoxious thing about you. I think it's I was never wrong, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

That's that's really it.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

And I'm about to deliver the most right question ever. So this is right on point. Uh the most obnoxious thing about you is that you don't value yourself highly enough to negotiate for yourself or even you know position yourself where you should be. Um, meaning like it doesn't matter what it is, right? It's like the the niceties or the niceness. Um, everybody loves you and loves that about you.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Um people pleasing just outshines everything else.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

I think there's uh it is such a beautiful quality that needs tempered extremely. And speaking of this, like we get to be the best versions of ourselves. Sometimes the interesting thing in a partnership, business partnership, marriage, whatever it is, right, is like I've always found that fascinating that the more extreme one person becomes here, like the natural reaction to that is this extreme on the other side, right? And so, like the more people pleasing you are, the most more absolutely rigid I become. And stubborn and completely flexible go with the flow, oh throw everything out the window. And as we kind of like inch towards this healthy place with each other, we have find that you know the the thorns retract a little bit. Um so yeah, empire days, I think, are are always going to be in our lives. Uh I'm gonna go ahead and speak for both of us because I know that you feel this way and probably for different reasons, but are always going to be something that we look back on like, I can't believe we did that. I can't believe we had that experience. I, you know, when it first ended, I um I just like longed for it. I mourned it. It was, you know, it was like, it was like you and I had, you know, 500, 600 children out there in this business that we'd created, which by the way, was amazing, incredible, beautiful in so many ways. It was such a great business that I'm so proud of that we created. And it was like losing all of that, you know, not to, of course, dislike discredit actually losing a child, which would be the most horrific thing you could ever imagine. But it was like this loss that was so big and we felt it differently. Um, but we lost our team, we lost our people, we lost our purpose, we lost um everything financially. We were an absolute bottom. And um, you know, we reacted to that experience very differently. Um, but man, the the good times were so good. And I think we could replay all of those memories in our head. Um, and they're gonna carry us through, I think, the rest of our lives. But um, I do want to talk a little bit about that low because I don't know that you've shared much about your experience there. And I think from like a solar industry, what's happening right now? I think that you and I have a lot of perspective to this topic that we don't get out there and share much, right? And and hopefully we can we can help someone with it um at minimum just feel like they're not alone, but because we felt super alone. Um, but what would you say is like the most vulnerable you felt during that process? What was your low? Oh, I got the leg.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Yeah, um that's hard to talk about. Um yeah, I think I think the the just jumping into the like the lowest point of all of that is just before um vampire um went into bankruptcy and just seeing everybody kind of scatter a little bit. A little bit a lot.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Um and not being able to everything about it, help them and and just being okay with that, right? It was very use the word. A little bit demeaning, a little bit uh damas. Disempowering. Disempowering. That's the word. Um there's nothing you can do, nothing you can say, there's no confidence you can give, like uh everything that you relied on in the past to build is just all those cards are gone now. And so there was that moment, you know, that was probably the lowest.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Yeah, I think that you and I have talked about this before that you know, companies fail, companies go out of business. And I think the one thing that you and I haven't been able to let go of is this idea that if we hadn't sold the business to someone else and hadn't given up our control, then at least we could have maybe wound things down or closed them or taken care of people in a different way. At least we would have kept ourselves in control of how that process looked and fielded or felt, right? Yeah. Obviously, our intention to sell the business wasn't, hey, we're gonna get out of here. Our intention was to do everything we possibly could to save it. And I wish that it had gone the way that we thought. Obviously, we felt good and we made the best decision we could do in that moment and we have to show ourselves grace. But signing over managerial control of the business and being completely locked out of everything was taking the disempowering disempowerment, you know, from um, hey, we're struggling, we're trying to keep this business afloat, you know, we're we're trying to show up to, we can no longer even speak on behalf of the business. We can't talk about it. We have, you know, threats um thrown in our direction and and all of these people that trust you that that came to build with us, you know, to to just feel like there was simply nothing that you could do.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

It's it was a weird position to be in, but and it's not one that I ever want to be in again.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

That was the irony was you know, in our effort, best intentions, right, um doesn't matter. It uh hindsight was you know probably the worst decision we made um in the whole process. Yeah, unfortunately. But uh you don't you don't know what you don't know. Yeah just losing that ability to control care for care for and do you know what like should and done.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

I think you could like yourself crazy with the what ifs, you know. Um and I'm finally we're almost three years past that now. I'm finally at a point where I can genuinely say I I I feel so much gratitude for that experience and I feel as so much peace for being past that experience that it's part of my story, but it's no longer. You know, part of my future that I I get to have some of the coolest experiences and also some of the most painful, miserable, uh tough lessons. And I have this blank slate to kind of you know figure out what we want to do next.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

And I I look back on it with more gratitude than I do, you know, the pain and things. Did you say the same?

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Yeah, I mean that's that's part of what you have to do, right? Is this think about the good things that came from from that experience, right? Um and there's there's a there's a much bigger line of things that I can describe that came that were positive than the the you know than the negative for sure. Like it outshines it all day. But um yeah, do I regret it? No. Do I wish I could change, go back? Obviously I do, but uh, there's definitely some things that we did do really well. And I don't think um, you know, I look at the solar industry now and I I still think people are trying to do some of the things that we did and recreate some of the things we did.

SPEAKER_03 45:05

Yeah, I I think that used to irk me at the beginning. It irked me, you know, more we can talk about you know being lesser versions of ourselves all day, because I think that's important, right? To allow yourself that grace when you're in a puddle of pain. But when I saw people, you know, taking the the ideas, the people, the concepts, and just like rolling it through the industry at first, I was just so frustrated because you know, this this narrative was just like thrown in our face that we, you know, had been painted to be these people, you know, that just was so far from reality. Like so far. Um, and so it was it was hurtful. Um, and now I look back on it and I just kind of go, Oh, wait, I planted that seed, right? Like that came from us. That little fun thing is taking, you know, new life in shape and to see the way that we've like influenced an industry is just an honor.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Like it's so cool. Yeah, there's a lot of good, like I said, there's and we're not done. We're still we're still changing.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Yeah, and I think that's the other thing that you know I think about a lot is like you know, we started Empire out of desperation, out of pure just survival survival mode. Had nothing to do with ambitions, dreams, we're gonna buy our next variety. Was we don't do this, we we gotta go get new new jobs. Yeah. And at that time, there wasn't a lot of jobs to be had.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

It wasn't just us either. It was a sea of family members, right, that relied on this for livelihood and people that we had worked with in oil cell, and we had their families relying on it for livelihood. Like it just became this massive family unit right out of the gate for us and and really try to keep people healthy, healthy, happy, thriving, right? Yeah, speaking of the things I think that people get wrong a lot. Um, I'm interested to know what some of yours are. Um because as other companies have gone out of business and continue to shut the doors, and it's been, you know, unfortunately, really low time in solar the past year. And I don't, you know, it's not over yet. I think that the thing that people get wrong right out of the gate is this expectation I see, or this um this assumption is a better word, that you know, these installers they just pocket the money, they sign up sales to pay it out the salespeople, they stick it all in their pockets and they run off, you know, of holding the bag. And um when you're in it, and when it's your experience, I think it can feel so like this is just us, we're doing everything wrong. Like, you know, this is all only us, only only we're dealing with this challenge. This is so unique. And the biggest eye-opening piece for me was a seeing other companies after we both went into consulting. People went, come tell us your lessons learned, like help us, right? And we got to see the massive guys, we got to see some little guys, we got to see everything. Um, you went on merging multiple companies and like had this ride up, which I want to talk about. Um, I went on consulting and then did kind of a short CEO stint. Um, and we we both just kind of integrated ourselves in the industry from uh really kind of getting a look behind the scenes for other people, right? And the one consistent message that I can tell you is installers are not running off with the bag, right? I think that the the balance of wealth in the industry is shocking. And I I think that I don't know where this falsehood like created, and we were chasing it, right? Like we see these other installers, like it's it's certainly at this scale, you know, you're gonna be just like bringing it in like like droves of money, right? And and chasing this like imaginary uh economy of scale or this imaginary like fortune that's out there with installs, not to say that it couldn't be done better and it can't be done profitably, and you know, we feel obviously like so much clarity on all those fronts. Um but you know, installers, I think right now are getting a really bad rap for what's happening in the industry. And that's something that is extremely frustrating for me, not only as an installer, as like living that life, seeing it, knowing it intimately, but getting into the the other ends of these businesses, right? And going, we've got this massive stack for commissions, we've got this massive stack for um finance, and we're all building this, you know, on the backs of these contractors with a margin of error that is just so slim. And yeah, demanding this, you know, this growth and this this you know capacity that has to be built to move this industry forward, to meet these demands, to, to, to build this kind of residential solar. Um, I look back so much on those, on those business models that all I see is a flawed model inherently. I don't see that we should have done this particular thing, like this was unique to us. I see nothing but wow, I really didn't see how flawed this model is, was, specifically referring to the red line build price model, right? Like only lessons learned that I take forward in my my future businesses, as far as like you can't serve anyone if you don't have the ability to continue to fund a really quality business. And at the end of the day, this is my long-winded way of saying, you know, we had absolutely nothing to our name. In fact, you know, every bit of salary, very, very menial salary that we ever paid ourselves in those days, you know, of Empire were um, they didn't, you know, they didn't carry us through surviving. We had to, we had to pay the bills, we, we amassed nothing, which is not something I'm proud of, right? It's not something that I wear like a badge of honor. It's simply, you know, just to be really honest with people about what that process looked like for us. And if I can help other entrepreneurs not find themselves in that position, you know, sign me up for that. That's what I'm here for.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Yeah, I think, you know, when when you talk about this chasing this economies of skill and solar in the model, um, I think that's that's probably one of the biggest misconceptions, I think, is that uh yeah, is that is that the the the counter to that and why it doesn't work necessarily, like not to say it can't work, but the the reason it doesn't in this model is there's so much complexity from market to market, and you don't understand the gravity of that until you actually start doing it in more markets, and that complexity makes it impossible to have economies of scale.

SPEAKER_03 51:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

You're throwing so much overhead at that.

SPEAKER_03 51:33

Um I think I know that this narrative bugs you too, right? Not to not to harp on it too much, but I see a lot of really quality installers that are in the game right now and they mean well, you know, they know well, they they certainly know their business, right? But they I I see a concerning almost like recycling of some of this process where these guys who have had a lot of success maintaining a foothold in like one strong market, maybe two, really looking to open up all these markets and take hold of all the opportunity that's out there. So you know, the others have gone out and kind of just go, there's a there's a level to that game. Um, and you can talk a big game. It's just it's all about you know, it's all about knowing your numbers, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:15

It's all about uh yeah, data becomes king, uh analytics become king.

SPEAKER_03 52:20

There's just there's a lot of lessons to be learned, I think, still for for people in the space. If you're trying to chase uh running a national, you know, company in a lot of these markets, to your point, managing the complexities. Um and we were in what 18 states.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Yeah, and I I think yeah, 18 states, you know, 17, 18 branches, um standardizing all of those branches to do it the same way becomes really difficult because they can't do it the same way. Right. They're they're you know, the way you install in Illinois is not the same way you install in Texas.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Um and and those complexities cause, you know, at minimal amounts it's not a big deal and you can overcome it usually. But at scale, all those little things just start pulling away from bandwidth, from attention on things, pipeline management, project coordination, scheduling, like all those things just start, you know, pulling from that bandwidth. And I think it can run away real fast. Yeah. Uh any money that you thought you had just starts.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

Absolutely. Managing the overhead costs. I mean, just like one simple thing.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Um what do you looking at again, kind of behind the curtain with a lot of different companies? What do you feel like companies out there are doing um wrong? And what do you think companies out there are doing really well today? Uh operationally, of course.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

Yeah, I I preach about this a lot and with with companies I work with, and even as I recognized, you know, my uh time at Lumio, which was an awesome learning experience, but a recognition of like really acknowledging the complexity of a job, right, at the end of the day, and taking on that as a as a thing of you know, that's the culture is like this is a construction company, right? Right, and having that mentality and that culture. Um not an alarm company, not an alarm company, not a passage. We are a construction company, right? And the companies that I see that are struggling the most are the ones that haven't adopted that mentality. And what I mean by that is their inabilities to really understand what it's going to take to get that project to the finish line.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Um you know, there's a roofing element, there's an electrical component, right? Um there's drywall, stucco repair, like all these construction home service type things that I don't think give given the industry hasn't given it enough credit for what it is.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

So that's that's the biggest thing. So the the ones that are succeeding, I think, are the ones that are bringing in the right knowledgeable point of authority type people that have that expertise and putting them in the right place in the process to capture that info when it's needed.

SPEAKER_03 55:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

That's that's what's working.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 55:23

Um talking about maybe some of the things that's you talked about what's not working. You talked about both. It reminded me, um I don't know, just some of my own observations, right? I think that uh some of the consistencies that people come to me about are things like I can't get my accounting finance team, right? This like this battle between accounting and finance and sales um and marketing or you know, revenue growth, I guess is a better way to put that, but um the uh the battle between finance and operations, right? Finance and everybody. And there's this, I like to to work with other CEOs and and share probably this is a big lesson learned for me. Um, I really tried to show up to that challenge of me as a CEO in the right way and you know, educate myself and really try to better my experiences uh to bring to the table and my um my bridge building ability, right? Because it's what you're doing. You're essentially saying, I recognize accounting and finance's requirements, needs, challenges, all those things, operations, right sales and and revenue. Um, and this bridge really needs to be built. And that bridge looks like a single method of uh communication and language, right? Like we all have our individual needs and requirements. And so as CEO or as the person, you know, moving this forward, identifying the scoreboard, like this is what success means. You need to provide the information that shows us how close or how far off we are from this, as do you, as do you, and to be that sort of goalkeeper. Um, and you know, I think that every company as they grow, I see the same consistent, it's just these battles between these departments that they'll never understand and they don't see this, right? And and I think that's something that I wish that I had been a little faster and more adapt to. And I think that in our relationship or in our situation, the complexity of having uh family relationships in that, right, again makes you feel like, oh, this is a dynamic situation, this is a us situation, you know, and that eye-opening of like, no, this is this is really just building business at scale situation and challenge to overcome. That's definitely a common threat I see for sure. Um looking back on Empire from an operations perspective, uh, what are a couple of things that really elevate, stand out to you that you would do differently?

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Um Well, the bit the big one was yeah, late to the game to be able to understand the financial language and what it is they need from an operator to be successful in what they're trying to accomplish. Right. Um, one of the things that that I picked up quickly after Empire was this ability to control the variables and recognize what those variables are. And and in doing so you give finance a fighting chance to forecast cash flow model, all these other things, you know, that that you constantly are battling, or at least we were battling at Empire was you know, why aren't jobs finishing? When are we getting paid? And why don't we understand why we're not finishing and when we're getting and same conversations over and over. Late to the game to understand why are we not getting those jobs across the finish line and then recognition of why that didn't allow our finance team to do the job that they needed to do, right? And that's just this unintended consequence of that push and pull.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

So I love that. What would you say about overhead? I know you probably have a lot of thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yeah, I know. You know, I've I think uh it's the easy thing when you're under stress and under fire is to throw more bodies at the problem. And I think that's a natural um problem-solving solution for most of us. Um but I think you know, at Empire we were growing so fast it was really hard to take that moment and and um kind of think of it from a different lens. Um we didn't have a lot of help, we didn't have a lot of people giving us you know advice on how to handle something like that. But I would also argue that we grew faster than than most people can understand.

SPEAKER_03 59:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

And so it's easier said than done when you talk about implementing things like training and you know, better better workflows and processes to reduce headcounts. It's like yeah, I agree with those things.

SPEAKER_03 59:56

The realistic ramp to actually implement those things.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Those things take time, and sometimes the business we weren't afforded that time, or at least that's how it felt. Right. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:04

Um we were also very much in a trap that I do think the industry is widely recognized getting away from at this point, right? Which is the the ticket to um being able to fund or cash flow the business with our very limited resources for outside capital was sell more, sell more to inject more capital in the business. You know, which is an absolute um killer of something really wonderful and great, right? Like uh I think that people don't talk enough about how what's happened in the solar industry from when we got in, you know, is like young business owners with some grit and um you know some talent could really come in and have this just like explosive experience like ours. We weren't the only ones that have it, obviously. You know, we ours was massively explosive. And we had, I think, a lot of the right recipe of the right people and the right, you know, timing and all those, you know, great things on our side. But so much of that for me is like circumstance in business is just so, so much of the equation, the right timing and circumstance, right place, right time, you know, kind of thing. But this artificial explosion of the industry brought in by, you know, the the loans and the tech advancement and just really everything that enabled this uh sales origination to kind of just go through the roof made a lot of you know young business owners really just trying to learn on the fly and figure out how to how to develop these businesses. And we always took the approach with ours that we really care about the people first and we wanted to build a business that was a massive culture benefit and really benefited the lives of not only our employees, but we were very involved in doing um good for other people and giving back and just expanding our reach. And so many of those things that we did, you know, in the ways that we invested into our people and into the right things, um, made our overhead costs, you know, really difficult to sort of keep on point, you know, or rein in. And I think that's um, again, just something that is is I wish someone would have, you know, given me the encouragement of uh back then, right? It's like margins as thin as they are and the clarity to knowing exactly what your margins are. Um, companies I see now are outsourcing a lot of things overseas, right? Like they're not building these incredibly massive, you know, fun, high culture teams here. I would love to see that be the case, right? But right now, survival um and building really fit trim companies is kind of the way forward. We're seeing this trend and we're reacting and responding to it in a really fun way with Radical, right? Which is like Radical is um it's the Uber, it is the shared economy model, taking the labor resources in the space and plugging them in with the empires of the world that we're trying to build 75 different uh survey operations and crews and teams, you know, all over the country. This concept that we can really share resources nationally and have a fixed cost rather than this unknown, you know, completely unmanageable, fluctuating month-to-month um overhead cost when you're trying to operate at scale across these multiple states. It's um it's something that Matt, I really wish we had access to.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

Yeah, it's uh it's funny because that that is that is the evolution. Radical is is like proof of what we, you know, in my opinion, learned, for lack of better words, right? It's like that's it. This is the way it probably should have been built in the from the get-go. Yeah. But again, as to your point, you're young trying to figure it out on the fly. And it's like that moment of clarity didn't come until I stepped away. Right. And it was like, oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

Well, back to the timing piece too, right? Like the shared economy model just simply wasn't even wasn't a thing that people were aware of, right? And we we took the mindset, and I'm definitely more guilty of this than you, that we should we should avoid outsourcing anything at all costs because no one will ever treat your customer, no one will ever treat the project the same way as you. And like what I think a lot of people miss in the outsourcing model, I'm sure you're gonna say this better than me, but is that your quality control measures and your processes and procedures and holding people to quality checks and how every single bit of that process goes is the piece that you can you can maintain at scale.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Yeah, there's this weird, there's this weird like mentality that I see a lot that uh in it if it's internal, I can manage it. Right. But when you ask how is it being managed, um it's either not or the way that it is being managed, why would it change when working with a third party? Right. Why would that any of those QC measures or pieces you put in place, why would that change?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:51

They're either there or they're not, right? It's like this warm blanket.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Um so anyway, yeah, I just think that's ironic.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

Yeah, I think it's been really fun. Um radical, I've said this multiple times, is you know, coming from empire, coming from we build solar uh projects, and everyone selling solar projects needs an empire, and we've never had to like create this demand for this, you know, product or service. And this experience has been one that's been fun for me to always feel like I'm stretching myself for learning new things in uh lot of ways. But this particular one is having to sort of create a demand or change behavior or change mindset into kind of the old way of building solar. And it's been what we're just a little over a year in. We uh have had a great amount of success, I think, in a in a brand new space. We did the over a million in revenue in year one, you know, from launch. Tech is beautiful, but uh, those are the conversations we're having is kind of breaking down that old mindset. And um, it's fun to know that we're on again the front end of where an industry is moving and where it's where it's going. And doing so, you know, in a fun way that brings culture and opportunity and all those great things to people and serving contractors in the space, which I know that you're as passionate about as my extra.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

Well, and I think that's it is realizing now you can still check a lot of those boxes that we that we really liked about Empire in any sandbox. It just needs to be done in a little bit different way, right? And that's what we're we're working towards and doing here at Radical. That's what I love about it. Is you know, there's a there's a culture piece. Like we have people, they have their own little microcultures that in my opinion, from my perspective, they line up with exactly what we had built in Empire, right? This unity team.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:43

They're real people, they push for those five-star reviews, they care about the homes that they're going into, they take a lot of pride in their work. It's fun. Yeah. So as we kind of wrap this up here, a couple more questions. One is there life after business failure? Is there hope?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Yeah. Yeah. You you hit on this just that we both kind of um took our own paths a little bit to to come back to where we're at now.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

After, right? Um, I I found comfort in just diving back right into the fire um in a situation that was very similar to the one that I just came out of. Um still don't know how you did that. We're just gonna continue to firefight. Um that's how I found light at the end of the tunnel, I guess. Was um there was something too for me personally, just about being able to fight those fires and not have the total weight of that um, you know, whatever those outcomes were is heavy. They just weren't as heavy in my new sandbox, right? I still had to fight the same fires, right? But I gotta do it with much less pressure on me.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

Which helped me kind of work through it mentally and you know, whatever probably I had and be more strategic. Much more strategic, much more uh less emotional about it, right? And that allowed me to kind of recognize things that I wasn't doing at Empire that I could then do in this new sandbox.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:21

So that's cool. I like that. Um last question is um for the tradesmen, for the contractors out there, um, both in the grind right now, wondering if they should hang in there or maybe considering getting into the space. What is your message?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

Um become a master of your trade first, whether you're an electrician, HVAC tech, or roofer, become the master literally and figuratively. Um so that you have and and you have that opportunity to be your own boss. That is where real wealth can be made, that's where real freedom can be had. Um, but you got to understand your your craft first, and I think that's the advice I'd give is get to that point and then start to work towards transitioning. There is a lot of people out there in that zone right now, and I'm I'm watching them. I'm watching a lot of uh this business, this industry's been great because it's a lot it's afforded those tradesmen an opportunity that they may have not gone after. Yeah. Um and it makes me happy, right? It makes me super proud of them and and I want to root for them. Um more and more of those electricians that are seeing the opportunity and saying, you know what, I'm gonna take the leap of faith um and seeing it work for them. That that brings me joy.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

So I love that. I think that you um are a beacon of kind of the stand together. A lot of people talk a lot about you know, sharing best practices or abundant mentality or sharing. Um, for those that don't know Steve, you should get to know him, especially on the on the operations side of the line, because there isn't anybody more um generous and caring and um more willing to put their ego aside on a shelf and help other people than this guy right here. I could tell you that from my own front row seat. I get to see it every day. Um, I think this has been really fun. You think we should do another?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

Yeah, this has been good. Get more awkward questions anymore if you want.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:30

Oh, I can turn it up. Okay. Thanks.