Mental Health: Unplug and Find Balance with Eric Graves from the Len Foote Hike Inn

What happens to our minds when we step away from constant connection? In this immersive conversation with Eric Graves, Executive Director of the Len Foote Hike Inn, we discover the profound mental health benefits that emerge when we disconnect from technology and reconnect with nature and each other.

Walking through the Chattahoochee National Forest near Amicalola Falls, Eric reveals how the backcountry lodge he oversees has become more than just a destination—it's a sanctuary for mental well-being. For 23 years, he's witnessed thousands of guests transform as they complete the five-mile hike to this rustic retreat where cell phones stay in pockets and strangers become friends around the dinner table.

The conversation takes us beyond mere digital detox philosophy into the tangible reality of what happens when people truly unplug. We explore how face-to-face communication has startlingly become a skill rather than a given, especially for younger generations raised on screens. Eric shares observations about his own daughters—one raised before smartphones dominated, the other fully immersed in digital culture—and the stark differences in their ability to connect with others in person.

Perhaps most compelling is the discussion about how technology is reshaping our problem-solving abilities. Eric notes how younger staff members approach challenges differently, often seeking pre-packaged solutions rather than working through problems with critical thinking. At the hike-in, where situations rarely have cookie-cutter answers, this generational shift becomes particularly evident.

What emerges isn't a wholesale rejection of technology—Eric himself uses bird identification apps and fitness trackers—but rather a call for intentional balance. The hike-in represents a model where technology serves as a tool rather than a master, where the process of experiencing nature matters as much as capturing the perfect sunset photo.

Whether you're feeling mentally drained from constant connectivity or simply curious about how nature affects our psychological well-being, this episode offers both scientific insights and practical wisdom. Join us for this thoughtful exploration of what it means to be healthy in mind and spirit in our increasingly digital world.

Check out the Len Foote Hike Inn by exploring their website at www.hike-inn.com.  You can make reservations to stay directly from this site!

Transcript

Introduction to Eric Graves

Andrew McEntyre 0:01

Welcome to Deep in the Woods with Andrew McIntyre , where one word and one walk reveal the stories that connect us all . Today , we head to Frosty Mountain near Amicalola Falls in Dawson County , Georgia , alongside Eric Graves , the executive director of the Len Foote Hike Inn . For more than 20 years , Eric has led the Hike Inn with a passion for wild places and the restorative power of nature . With a passion for wild places and the restorative power of nature . In this episode , Eric has chosen the word health , with a special focus on mental health and how stepping away from the pressures of society and the constant pull of technology can bring balance and clarity .

Andrew McEntyre 0:37

As we make our way along the back trails to the hike-in a place Eric often turns to for an escape , we dive into the different dimensions of health . Our conversation explores how the hike in itself stands as a model for balancing nature and technology , and how today's children face the complexities of growing up in a world immersed in social media , with all the challenges and implications that brings for their future . Before we begin , be sure to check out the Deep in the Woods Instagram page for video clips from this episode , and don't forget to rate the podcast and leave a review wherever you listen . So join us now as we walk the trail toward the high Ken and Amicalola Falls and dig deep into the word health .

Andrew McEntyre 1:20

All right , you ready , I'm ready . All right , let's do . It All right . So just to get started , can you tell me who you are ? Tell me a little bit about yourself .

Eric Graves 1:30

I'm Eric Graves . I'm the executive director of the Linfoot Hike-In , overseeing basically the entire operations of the Backcountry Lodge . Our guests hike in and out five miles to stay with us from Amicalola Falls State Park . It's a kind of rustic bed and breakfast , nice little getaway from the modern world , and I've been with the inn in some capacity for 23 years .

Eric Graves 1:54

So tell me a little bit more before we jump into your word , because we're actually walking not on the actual trail to get to the hike in . Tell me a little more about hike in and where we're walking at . Okay Well hike-in .

Eric Graves 2:08

We are part of the Georgia State Park System . One of the things that's unique about us is we're actually operated by a nonprofit , so that's technically what I'm over is Linfoot Hike-In Incorporated . Okay State Parks . We're wanting to have a backcountry lodge similar to Mount LeConte , chirrut Creek , also in Tennessee , or the White Mountain Huts of New Hampshire , but they were really unsure about operating it . So they went to the Georgia Appalachian Trail Club to see if they had some interest , and some of their members did , so they set up a separate nonprofit to kind of run it for the state park .

Eric Graves 2:45

So nice little getaway for families and also people starting to get a little bit older who maybe don't want to sleep on the ground anymore , yeah , and want to yeah , you know have a nice cushy um bed and their meals prepare prepared for them while they stay with us and I'll say I actually uh mentioned to you which is how I connected with you was actually stayed at the uh the hike in a few years ago with my son , which was a wonderful experience and we'll talk about that more , but that's how I initially reached out to you because of that experience , right .

Speaker 3 3:13

And currently we're hiking . Our trail is either in Amicalola Falls State Park or the Chattahoochee National Forest . It goes from State Park to National Forest back to State Park as you get close to the end . Right now we're in the middle of the Chattahoochee National Forest , actually hiking on an old Forest Service road , and it crosses the AT Approach Trail that connects to Springer Mountain and the entire Appalachian Trail near here . But this is just a nice quiet section of Forest Service Road and it's kind of where I like to hike and get in a few extra steps here and there during the day or the week and nice scenery as well .

Eric Graves 3:52

It's a little bit less crowded than some of the other hikes around here right now .

Eric Graves 3:56

Definitely the hike-in trail . We see around 9,000 guests a year , easily probably another 3,000-plus day hikers a year . Then you've got Amicola Falls State Park , which is one of the busier state parks in the state of Georgia . So so , yeah , this is . This is kind of the little area of the national forest and trails that tend to be a little bit quieter , so it's where I like to spend a little bit of my time getting away and we were hiking , we had to reschedule this .

Andrew McEntyre 4:25

So we originally were going to do this late spring , but now we're doing it right almost as the summer's starting , so we get to see some of the things that you may not have saw then . I think the flowers we're looking at right now . They are typically blooming now , not in the spring , is that correct ?

Eric Graves 4:39

Correct . The rhododendrons are blooming right now . There's still a few mountain laurel and flame azalea flowers hanging on , but all the smaller wildflowers .

Eric Graves 4:51

There's still a few around , but for the most part they've started to die out as the summer is upon us so , but before we jump into the deep part of the conversation , with this podcast , the theme always is always built around one word . So , um , can you tell me what word we're going to talk about ? I ?

Eric Graves 5:08

want to talk about health . Health , okay , but potentially a little different angle than you're thinking . Most people think health and hiking . Yes , the physical part of it , the huffing and puffing and dripping sweat . Um , I was going to talk about the mental health side of hiking .

Eric Graves 5:24

That's awesome , thank you , and part of hiking in itself . There's a huge component to that as well . I even read this morning , you know , as I went back to prepare for today's conversation that that's a big aspect ,

Health Beyond Physical: Mental Wellness Focus

Eric Graves 5:37

even on the website talking about that . So let's jump right in In terms of mental health and jump right in In terms of mental health and hiking .

Speaker 3 5:49

Why did you connect to that ? How is that important to you ? For me and I'm no different than most of our guests and I've always jokingly said our guests are stressed out Atlanta we see people from all over the southeast in the country , but that's kind of you know , know , the majority of our guests are coming from metro atlanta . I'm very busy and very , um , kind of highly connected world of atlanta . As far as technology , yeah , um , and I'm no different than that . You know , running a backcountry lodge , we got to know who's coming every day , who's leaving every day . So we're using technology as well behind the scenes . Yeah , um , but it's really important to be able to disconnect and get away from that , and that's what we encourage our guests to do , and I have to very purposely make sure I disconnect as well . Yeah , um , so just a big part of it . And then I realized , you know , throughout the work week I need to get out here and do a mile or two myself every so often , just to be able to get away .

Eric Graves 6:52

And I know I've talked about this before on many of the episodes , but there is something about walking itself , and especially in nature , that kind of recenters people in terms of that mental health piece . It kind of gets your . It gives you a chance to think without that distraction of technology . It allows you to notice the things that are around you , like we looked at the flowers or the puddles , the rocks , all the things that we're seeing . You have to attend to those things in some way and that you can't do that with a phone at the same time .

Speaker 3 7:23

And that's the nice part of hiking . And I say hiking , you know undeveloped trail or a relatively wilderness trail . You know walking around the little one mile loop at the soccer fields , you know , while your kids are practicing I've done that plenty as well , yeah , but you don't really disconnect there as much . That's true , there's more people , there's more going on . You're always kind of looking back towards the practice field Somewhere , like this , you really have to focus on where my feet are landing and what's around me . So it kind of simplifies your thought process to focusing on truly where you're at and what you're doing .

Eric Graves 8:05

Yeah , I agree , it's something about that aspect of like . We just in Atlanta , in this area , just had some heavy rains last night . So even when we're walking now you're going to have some more slippery areas or we have to pay attention to what we're doing as well . And I'll go back to the hike in , because my son , when we came a few years ago , as you said , him and myself we're all pretty , you know , sucked into the technology and our phones and it's hard when you're at home to not automatically go to that whenever you sit down to take a minute . But there is something about the hike in itself that when you're there , not only is it highly promoted but you don't feel the need to go to that phone . There's something where you want to disconnect . Um , I , I know this part of the actual . I wouldn't say it's a policy , but it seems it's highly promoted . How do you guys promote that with your guests ?

Speaker 3 9:00

We really encourage everybody . You know it's easy to say disconnect and you know again , I jokingly tell people you didn't bring something with you or even potentially somebody because you were looking to get away . Enjoy it . Get away , Spend time with whoever hiked in with you and also enjoy meeting the other guest . Yeah , it's a little different than you , different than a drive-up hotel . Very seldom do you make new friends at the breakfast buffet at a Holiday Inn Express , at the hike-in , with the family-style dining . You've all experienced something a little more than driving up to a hotel and walking in . You hike five miles to get to us . So there's a shared

Technology Disconnect at the Hike-In

Speaker 3 9:43

experience that is unique for most guests . It's not something they do every day , so you have that shared experience . That starts the conversation . Enjoy meeting new people face-to-face . It's something that not only the disconnect part , but back to meeting somebody face-to-face and having a real conversation .

Speaker 3 10:04

It has turned into more of that experience than it was , say , 20 years ago .

Eric Graves 10:09

Right , it's incredible that we've got to the point where that's become so rare . Right , that you can't just spend that time with other people , even strangers , that you don't know , and be able to connect with them . Right .

Speaker 3 10:21

And I'm always when my family's up or we visit another backcountry lodge . My girls , they're 25 and 15 . So I've got kind of a little bit of a spread there . But it's interesting to see my 25-year-old connects very easily with people . It is also part of what she does for a living in her career now . But the 15-year-old , she's a little more of that tech-based childhood . Yeah . 15 year old , she's a little more of that tech based childhood . Yeah . So seeing her to connect with a stranger face to face and have a conversation , um , I won't say it's rare , but it is rewarding to see her be able to do that . Yeah , because so many children now cannot . It's a skill .

Eric Graves 10:57

I mean to be able to connect with others and socialize , and , um , there's , there's an aspect of that that we're losing , I think , in their society , because you know , you can even see how they approach with their eye contact , how they engage and feel comfortable . You can read people's body language and nonverbal cues . All those things I think we're somewhat losing .

Speaker 3 11:19

It's amazing that we now consider that a skill . Right , that's where we've turned into as a society . Yeah , that face-to-face communication in person is now actually considered a skill , if you can do that effectively .

Eric Graves 11:34

Let's talk through a day of the hike-in . I want to know what the experience would be for someone who comes through this lens that we're discussing .

Speaker 3 11:42

So you're going to start out . I highly encourage you to make reservations as far in advance as you can through this lens that we're discussing . So you're going to start out , you know , I highly encourage you to make reservations as far in advance as you can . Just cause weekends fill up up to 11 months in advance . So once you've survived kind of the headache of finding a night to come up cause it can get frustrating for people Sometimes if you come on a weekday we usually do have availability You'll check in at Amicola Falls State Park with us . We'll get you checked in , get you directed towards the trail , then you start your hike Anywhere from . Two and a half skis just swallowed a buck , I guess , which happens in the woods occasionally In the summer here yeah but normally takes about two and a half to three and a half hours for your hike in um .

Speaker 3 12:32

It's one of those , you know , enjoy it , um . Once you get to the end and get checked in um , you know enjoy kind of settling in , meeting the , the other guests , going on the facility tour , learning about how we operate the inn and kind of who we are . We're a lead platinum facility , so we talk about the operations at the hike inn . Then we have dinner family stop , where we encourage you to clean your plate and not waste food as part of our kind of mission of conservation . And then after dinner we'll have some type of program , whether it's hiking or conservation-based or wildlife-based , in between staff and we've got a lot of volunteers that come up and do programs as well . Encourage you to go on that , learn a little bit Definitely not classroom style , a little more laid back than that and then encourage you just to enjoy your time with your friends and family and your new friends that you've met .

Eric Graves 13:31

There's a particular room that I remember . I would say maybe it's like a community room you might have the name for it but where people often do hang out , play games , maybe have an instrument or something there . At that point , Tell me about that room and what the design for that is .

Speaker 3 13:46

Right , it's called the Sunrise Room . So it's our easternmost building , at the end of the four . So it's a really great place , obviously to see sunrise , but it's , you know , the Sunrise Room is a great place , you know , obviously to see sunrise a great place , you know , obviously to see sunrise . But also it is the community room . Got the wood stove going in there during the winter months , which really adds to what I consider the hiking experience now the winter trip , up with the wood stoves going and it's where everybody hangs out . There's board games , puzzles you know what we consider traditional um forms of entertainment . No TV , yeah , encourage you not to have your phone out . And it is amazing to see kids and families sitting there putting a puzzle together . Um , I'm not much of a puzzle guy myself . Yeah , um , my youngest daughter is a Jenga fan , yeah .

Speaker 3 14:44

So I can't tell you how many times over the years we've hung out in the sunrise room and played jenga yeah , my son and I did as well , and even as a 15 year old now . When she's up , she loads up on lemonade or hot chocolate if it's the winter , and um straight to the sunrise room for a round of jenga .

Eric Graves 15:01

So there's definitely something about that space that brings , like you just want to find something to do , um , that um , yeah , we have a little rain blockage or puddle there , um , because I remember when my son was there , like he typically needs , and if he's not on the device , you have to like feel you feel like you're the one who has to be his personal entertainer , right , like you have to be like all , right , here's what we're gonna to do , right , but there was something about being there that that didn't have to happen .

Eric Graves 15:29

He felt very natural about just finding things to replace what would normally be a boredom . Um , and I think there's something about boredom as well , as much as , like you would think that being out in the woods and having those things available I mean , when I was a a kid , if we went camping , I never felt bored . Right , I found things to do . But , as we said about this generation coming up , it feels like the they need electronics so much that they don't know how to replace them with something that's not , that doesn't provide the same amount of stimulation , correct , um , but I do think that , you know , when we experienced the hike in that sense of boredom was filled in pretty quickly by either going on a walk or going out in nature exploring the facility , spending that time in the sunrise room or I think down there there's a spot where you can have there's like an overlook .

Speaker 3 16:19

And Starbase . Where our celestial calendar is at , we've got a nice view looking to the east . Where our celestial calendar is at , we've got a nice view looking to the east . And this is again my girls . My 25-year-old spent a lot of time at the hiking and a lot of weekends growing up and that's kind of where she would hang out a lot and she would go down there and if it was dry she couldn't make little mud pies on the rocks down there . But um , you know she , she came up with her own little recipe of twigs and sticks and leaves down there every time she was up .

Speaker 3 16:53

I think she called it rockamole oh , that's awesome she's gonna love I'm talking about that um , but you know it was one of those that you know it was something to do while I was , you know , maybe doing checkout or working , I think , at cornhole boards that were there .

Eric Graves 17:07

Yeah , okay .

Speaker 3 17:08

And you know , in the hike-in we are in the middle of the national forest , so kind of don't want your kids truly unsupervised into wonder and awe , yeah . But within the footprint of the inn itself most kids actually feel safe , yeah , and they explore a little bit more than they would , you know , say , somewhere else . Um , you know a resort or something like that . Um , so you see a little bit more of kids kind of wandering a little bit and their parents letting them wander a little bit so kind of having an eye on them .

Speaker 3 17:38

Yeah , um , but it's interesting to see kids kind of revert back to what I did in my childhood of kind of disappearing and playing all day and not being in the house .

Eric Graves 17:51

Yeah , that exploring and being curious and I think a lot of that problem solving skills to come from that . Like I I'm a teacher and I work with kids in preschool age and so when one of the biggest things that we have to remember is play is the biggest part of their job , right , and that learning aspect comes through through play , like the problem solving , the social skills , all these things that we've talked about that kids naturally pick up comes through that exploration and curiosity and play .

Speaker 3 18:18

And you know , and having children interact with adults at the hike , in , whether it's you know dinner , you know , just asking a complete stranger to pass the macaroni and cheese , yeah , it's part of that whole experience . And to see children get comfortable kind of talking to strangers , because you know we've , as society's changed over the decades , talking to strangers isn't something that's been encouraged .

Eric Graves 18:43

There's a fear aspect to it .

Speaker 3 18:44

yeah , but within places like the hike-in and , you know , in other destinations , you know you're a little bit of the hike-in family there and sitting there having dinner and being able to talk to your neighbor who's not a family member , because the other adults , you know , they like to talk up the children

Face-to-Face Connections in Digital World

Speaker 3 19:03

that have made the hike . Yeah , you know , it's like you've accomplished this and I think your child was maybe around nine . Yeah , you know when he came up my girls were both around five when they first made the hike on their own .

Eric Graves 19:14

Yeah , that's not easy , yeah .

Speaker 3 19:15

You know . So they're kind of like little superstars at the hike yeah , man , you did it , yeah . And so it's interesting to see kids kind of come out of their shell a little bit when they're at the hike-in and able to interact with all of the guests just not the other kids .

Eric Graves 19:30

And that sense of accomplishment too that you get when you've made it right . I think there's something about seeing the entranceway at the hike-in as you approach , when you've gone on that trail the whole way , and then basically saying , oh , we did it , we made it . Because every time your child comes around the corner he's like are we almost there ? Are we almost there ? And it's different because , like you said , like a typical hotel or resort or whatever , you just pull up and you go in . But there is something I've been thinking about lately A good friend of mine we've been talking about With AI and technology and so many things are creating a product or a result or an outcome to occur fast , Right , Right . And what we're doing is we're skipping the process and I think by hiking up to a place , it makes you put in the work and the time and the satisfaction really increases because you really understand I was a part of this process to get here Right , and that's different .

Speaker 3 20:27

It is , and I'm no different than most of the guests . When I'm out on the trail , whether it's trail work or just going , you know , to hike myself , seeing the end as you come up that hill and you see the front patio . Even after all these years , there's still this like all right , I'm back , I made it , you did it , and it's still nice . And everybody , everybody has a different story coming to the hike in , and this is something I have to remind especially new staff . Um , you know , a lot of them are younger . Um , some of them are big hikers , some of them are not , but for the most part , a five mile hike to them really isn't that big of a deal , yeah , um . And after they've been with us a while and they've hiked more , the hike to them really isn't that big of a deal . Yeah , um .

Speaker 3 21:07

And after they've been with us a while and they've hiked more , the hiking trail really just turns into , you know , a nice walk . Yeah , but we have a lot of people that have survived illnesses , replacements of joints , and we hear from a lot of them that they've used the hike in trip as motivation during rehab and physical therapy . That's good . So you just never know . You know that five mile hike to one person might not be much , but to another person it could be a huge accomplishment . That took years to get back to and it's really nice to see those people and hear their stories and it kind of just regrounds you a little bit of you know , just it's . It is an accomplishment for a lot of people it's a .

Eric Graves 21:51

It's a very special process , like when you tell people the story of your experience at the hike in . You know you're going to say to them , like after I've left , this is what it was like and the biggest part of it is that walk . You know , and and I think even more so , the walk back , because I think you've you've done the work to get there . And just like when you travel back from a long , long road trip , there's something about what like walk back , where you know you got to get up that morning and and do it . There's that you got to get that focus to say I got to get myself out of here . There's only one way out , right , right .

Speaker 3 22:25

And that is , um , you know seeing different groups come up and I'm part of the leadership Dawson program in Dawsonville and they use the hike in is their retreat to start the class and it's amazing to see the amount of nervousness , trepidation in that crowd . And we go do our first meeting and I stand there and explain the hike into them and they look at me and they're like well , I've known Eric for a while . I know he hikes all the time . Of course this is an easy hike for Eric . I'm an accountant , I'm an attorney . I don't hike all the time like him . This is the most you know . And there's some true fear out of some of them . But then , you know , try to put their mind at ease .

Speaker 3 23:07

Other people within the class who maybe have been to the end hearing from somebody else that's not the director that hikes all the time . Yeah , you know your friends hearing from you . They're like well , andrew did it and he loved it . It'd be great . Yeah , like that secondhand or that word of mouth experience from you resonates so much more than from me . I'm wanting to make sure the beds are full every night so I can keep doing this forever and the staff are all happy and you know all that .

Speaker 3 23:35

So it's one of those hearing your experience and other people's experience . It might not be , you know , avid hikers and a lot of our guests are really not avid hikers . They've got a sense of adventure , yeah , and they want to do something different . So it is interesting to see that accomplishment and that like wow , I did this . You know , to see social media posts or to hear back from people that you know was interested in . A lot of times the stories we hear about are like we had a gorgeous hike up but it poured rain on us all the way back Snowed on us or it was icy or . But even the bad weather those are good stories .

Speaker 3 24:12

It adds to the experience .

Eric Graves 24:13

Yeah .

Speaker 3 24:14

Nobody wants to do it . I don't want to hike in the rain , but I do it all the time , right ? Because , sometimes it's just what I have to do but it adds to the experience . So yeah , very interesting to hear people's their story and their experience of coming up to the hike in . You know , it kind of helps me , kind of re-energize myself to hear people's stories of them enjoying the experience .

Eric Graves 24:38

Yeah , I think that's the thing . The common theme that I came across with in this podcast , especially this year for some reason , is the aspect of how much power stories have , and it's kind of been recurring that . You know , I spoke with a lady that who's a Native American storyteller , and in that podcast episode we talked about why do we tell stories , but also how effective they are when it comes to , you know , changing people's aspects of their like , their behaviors and the way they think about things . And so a story itself has power because it connects to people directly , human to human . And so when people are telling these stories of their hikes and their experiences , when they go back , I think people do get excited or motivated by saying , like you said , oh , I could do that . That sounds great . I love to disconnect . I'd like to go to a place where I'm not so distracted by everything else going on , so I think that's really awesome to hear that that's a huge part of what happens with so many people here . Let's jump back into technology a little bit . So , strangely enough , yesterday I have these guys I listen to on my device , so it doesn't really help me in the argument here . It's a little bit hypocritical . They're explaining this through a video on my phone , right ? Yep , but these two guys , they're writers and they do YouTube , right ? So they're Hank and John Green . I don't know if you're familiar with them YouTube , right . So they're Hank and John Green . I don't know if you're familiar with them , but every week they do a video back and forth with each other , and they have a way to respond through the video , each video they create .

Eric Graves 26:14

So the first guy , his response this week was about technology and he was trying to connect the metaphor that technology is kind of like cigarettes in some aspect . So he was saying that when he was younger he would smoke cigarettes , but every so often he would feel this kind of kick that said I need it , I need this thing , right ? Eventually , he said he switched to Nicorette gum , which he was , he chewed , for he said he chewed 20 pieces of gum a day for five years . He said he would sit there doing his work and he's like no , do I need another piece ? Yeah , I do , and it would fulfill that need , that little scratch , you know their itch that he had to scratch . And so he was saying is the social media , is the phone , is the internet ? Is that what it's become ? Is it now become what cigarettes used to be for him , this thing where he's trying to do his work , but now he has to stop and watch something for a minute on YouTube or on TikTok or whatever it might be ?

Eric Graves 27:10

And then he reached out to his brother and said what is the solutions ? What do you think is the response to this ? And I found it interesting . His brother , hank , responded back , saying you got the metaphor all wrong , right ? And he said the thing is is that we don't a a problem so much with just having the internet . Internet is a source of information , it's a source of media , he said . He wanted the metaphor to be connected to food .

Eric Graves 27:37

Okay , so he said , in the late 1800s , early 1900s , food was always scarce . We always were searching out . Not everybody had enough food . It was something people were always trying to get more of .

Eric Graves 27:50

And then , at some point , things changed . We were able in our country to basically have probably too much choices for food and too many calories , too many options for food , and so now we have things , that we have Doritos and Takis and we have every candy of every color you can imagine , and we can have access to as much of it as we could ever want . Does that make food bad ? He said not really . I mean , we need food , we need calories , we need all of those things . And he made the point that we've always tried to fix it with more information , like here's all the calories and ingredients that are in this food , but it doesn't really change people's behavior based on that .

Eric Graves 28:28

So then he said , well , let's look at the internet now and the information . He said at some point we probably did have a scarcity of information , right , like we didn't . We didn't have access to know what's going on in our world . Right , he said . But now we have the exact same problem we

Technology's Impact on Problem Solving

Eric Graves 28:43

have with food found as a deep spot spot . Sorry , I made you go through the mud .

Speaker 3 28:46

No , it's okay . I was looking for prints animal prints as well to see if anything interesting had walked by besides squirrels . That'd be a good place to find it .

Eric Graves 28:55

So , ultimately , what he basically came to the conclusion was was that information is like food Now we have so much of it that we're having to discriminate how to use it and how to do it appropriately . It doesn't make it a bad thing , but it makes it where we have to now make a choice about how we use it . And he says whose responsibility is it to really control how much information we're consuming ? We'll go back around this way now .

Eric Graves 29:20

Okay , all right , you're good . So you've got a good spider web , the um . So I don't know . That's what I'm looking at . Um , the information now for how to approach technology . It was a good kind of scale to say um , am I using it too much ? Am I am ? Should I be more deliberate or intentional about how it's used ? And and am I using it , like he was saying , as a way to just get that stimulation , that quick fix ? Should I be more deliberate or intentional about how it's used ? And am I using it , like he was saying , as a way to just get that stimulation , that quick fix , almost like the cigarette I get to get it now ? So a place like Hike Inn sometimes might be a place to gain that awareness , if that makes sense .

Speaker 3 30:05

It is , and I'm no different . Different . I've listened to a great book called the anxious generation , I believe it was , you know . It's about kind of the rewiring of children's brains and technology that . You know , my 15 year old she grew up in a world where smartphones were what everybody had yeah , my oldest did not . She kind of came in at the backside of that of you know , everybody not having them . How did I listen to this book ? Through my smartphone , through my truck , while driving back and forth to the state park to work , and I laugh as well at the hypocritical side of it of I'm using technology just as much as anybody else . You know , like I said , I am able to disconnect a little bit easier than most people , but I've got my smartphone in my pocket now . It's tracking my miles today , yeah , you know , and it's just one of those that , if an emergency arose , people could get me still .

Eric Graves 31:05

We're recording on a smartphone as we're talking People will listen to this on their smartphone likely .

Speaker 3 31:10

Exactly so that rewiring of our children and having a 10-year age difference in my girls and being able to see that in them and my 15-year-old . She's probably not quite as attached to devices as most kids , or at least that's what I like to tell myself . She can appreciate the disconnect of going to places like the hike-in or the Grand Canyon , but that's because her parents is part of what we do . A lot of parents don't do that . You know they've let the devices turn into the babysitter at certain ages , but it used to be the TV when I was younger .

Speaker 3 31:54

You know so we've kind of replaced it , but now it's mobile , it's very personal , it's in your hand , it's not sitting in the community living room . You know kind of Something you did together with a family , right , you know , now to a certain extent it's kind of a private experience .

Eric Graves 32:11

Something you do alone , one-on-one .

Speaker 3 32:13

Right , and so we've lost that to some degree . And that's what this book talks about is how , you know , technology has negative effects , but there is extreme positives from it negative effects , but there is extreme positives from it and being able to , as adults , help our children use it better and appropriately . And you know , adults need help with it as well . I'm no different . I agree , come football season , yeah , I'm watching my phone and the TV sometimes Fantasy football , you know , to keep up with .

Speaker 3 32:44

You know multiple games and so I understand , yeah , um , but is is it distracting from kind of your quality of life and your interactions with friends and family ? Um , is it becoming such a distraction that it's almost this fake world that you know children are living in ? Yeah , um , so um it's great being able to you know children are living in , yeah , so being able to offer a place for people to get away from that adults and children and to see them enjoying each other , you know , without that distraction .

Eric Graves 33:18

Because I think we I look at it sometimes when you get home from work and your wife gets home and your kids get home from school , there's this feeling , this need to kind of get away and decompress , and sometimes the way to do that is , everybody goes to their own device for a little bit , to just almost to veg out or whatever you would say distract yourself from all the things that you've had to deal with throughout your day . And I'm not saying again either that's right or wrong , I don't really know exactly . I think there's a limit to that as well . But , um , I would say that there's still a need to be aware , and that awareness part is what I think comes with being in nature . When you are like what we are doing right now , it's almost impossible not to start to become aware of your surroundings and have to not be zoned in so much in one particular thing . That's feeding you one line of information , right . It's allowing you to observe what's happening .

Eric Graves 34:19

As you saw earlier , you tried to stop and see if there were tracks along the way . You would do that here , and when you're hiking , you would listen to the sounds . You'd use your senses to be able to engage with that world and there's something that's doing to your brain . It's , I think , my friend and I we talked about earlier who were talking about these topics . He was saying there's some new studies coming out that show that , in terms of people who use their phones a certain amount , it is lowering their skills when it comes to problem solving , to critical thinking . Some of those skills are starting to diminish because they don't have those same abilities anymore or they aren't using those same skills to activate those parts of their brain . So that's a little concerning .

Speaker 3 35:05

It's definitely concerning and it's something we see , um at the hike in with staff . You know I've got an employee now . Um , she likes to remind me of this . Um , good thing , I think the world of her that I've been working at the hike in longer than she's been a lot , oh , wow , yeah , um , so , yeah . So that's one of those when you , when you're hiring staff and all of a sudden you start seeing birthdates on resumes and stuff , or when you're doing their HR paperwork and you're like , oh wow , I'm old but it's interesting to watch her process , how we operate the hike in , whether it's announcements to guests or checking in guests or even the office side of . You know we're a back country lodge but we're still a business . We still have spreadsheets and reports that have to get sent out to different people the board , the accountants , myself and it's so interesting to see some of the younger staff how do they process this information . And the hike in is not cookie cutter . You cannot go to AI and say how do you do this report for a back country lodge ? Yeah , um , you know , and a lot of our reports . You know they're pretty simple , they're just spreadsheets but it's just data entry and there is a little bit of , sometimes , interpretation of that . Um , so it is interesting to see them process stuff .

Speaker 3 36:21

My 15 year old if she sees something on TV that looks good to eat , she goes to YouTube and she immediately finds somebody that has a video walking you through the steps of how to bake whatever it is . Yeah , and I kind of laugh at myself when I go to fix something at the house and I find a YouTube video instead of a paragraph by paragraph description and I'm sitting there with my laptop or my phone propped up trying to fix the dryer . Yeah , but it's how . It still feels a little cumbersome and awkward to me because that's not how I grew up . Learning and processing and problem solving . Yeah , to my 15 year old and our younger crew at the hike in it's what they do , it's what they go to . Yeah , it is their encyclopedia of well , I need to figure out how to do this . Surely somebody's done this before and filmed it and put it on YouTube . Yeah . So it is a very interesting kind of generational thing to see how we process stuff , different and , you know , hopefully get to the same end positive result .

Eric Graves 37:23

Yeah , I mean , that's the thing is like I don't . When you start to use technology as a tool , I don't see there's anything that would be too detrimental there , unless you become so reliant on it that you can't problem solve in the moment , as you you know , be able to that problem solving and critical thinking aspect that if your only solution to a problem is to go find out someone else who's already solved it online and then figure it out from that , at some point you've got to be able to like there's not every problem is going to be like you said , that cookie cut away , and so you'll have to be able to figure it out for yourself . And I think I try so hard my own kids now they'll come to me and they'll even use me almost like I'm the fix .

Speaker 3 38:04

I was just thinking about that and the hike-in staff . Well , Eric's been here forever . I'll leave him a note and he'll know how to fix it .

Eric Graves 38:10

Yeah right .

Speaker 3 38:11

I think I've turned into their resource a lot of times .

Eric Graves 38:13

Yeah . So I think that's what their go-to is is just to say I have a problem , let me go see somebody else who's already solved it once before , which I guess is one way to solve a problem . But you really you need to be able to look at a situation , make good judgments , be able to critically think what's going on , you know , because then you every situation is not always going to be a cookie cutter recipe . Even when you're baking , right , if you're going to rely on it exactly , oven temperatures can be different . There's all kinds of things that are variables that you may have to make judgment calls on that you won't be able to rely on someone else to make that decision .

Speaker 3 38:49

Correct and their ingredients they may have slightly different than what you have at the house .

Eric Graves 38:54

Yeah .

Speaker 3 38:55

And you've got to figure out what I can substitute or use . You know , to make it turn out edible , Right ?

Eric Graves 39:04

So that's definitely a good way of looking at it too . I mean , I think I don't know how . Here's where I come to an impasse a little bit too , because I think we're still learning how to solve these problems , as we're in the midst of them , because technology is problems . We look and we realize what's happening , um ,

Intentional Disconnection for Mental Health

Eric Graves 39:29

but we don't yet , I think , have good solutions . I know the book you mentioned . Um , I did some , I started reading it , but I haven't finished it yet . But I have a good feeling that he was trying to provide some solutions and some to the problem . I don't know if you've got any takeaway from it .

Speaker 3 39:44

Oh well , it's almost going to wind up being individualized , based on you know , your kid or your family member or yourself , and what your version of social media addiction for lack of a better term is , or how you're using it , how it's affecting you . That was a big part of his focus was how is social media affecting children's behaviors ? Now , and you know , just because you see , and we see this with AT hikers that are putting their videos out on YouTube . Oh yeah , they show you the happy moments .

Speaker 3 40:22

They show you the views they show you , the I don't know . Freeze dried meals are the greatest part of that , but after a while , a freeze-dried meal at the end of the day is pretty exciting . How is that affecting your perception of reality ? Not everything's perfect , but social media and the content creators tend to only show you that side of it . That's true . They don't show you the all right . Well , there was a gorgeous view on the trail today . There was a , you know , beautiful outfit that this young lady was wearing on social media that she shared . You know it doesn't show the struggles that went into getting to that point .

Andrew McEntyre 40:57

Yeah .

Speaker 3 40:58

You know that gorgeous view took three hours of hiking to get to Right and then there was three hours down from that view . That's a good point To that shelter that has mice and mosquitoes .

Eric Graves 41:08

Yes , and then ?

Speaker 3 41:09

they're just showing you the pretty part of a sunset and them sitting there eating dinner with maybe another view in the background .

Eric Graves 41:14

Yeah .

Speaker 3 41:15

So the routine , mundane , is not exciting , but it's part of everyday life . Yeah , and as for social media , you know it's doing a disservice to society in some aspects of I get it . Nobody wants to see that part . Yeah , but children are forgetting . You know , school is not fun all day long . You're right .

Eric Graves 41:37

Yeah , and there's a lot of work involved .

Speaker 3 41:39

And it's the same with work . You know , in different professions there's parts that are boring . I don't get to hike every day .

Eric Graves 41:45

Yeah .

Speaker 3 41:46

It's amusing how many of my especially like this leadership class that comes up to the end every few years . I know a lot of these people . They literally think I get a lot of them think I just get to hike all the time . That's what I do for a living , which is far from it and then they come up and see a hike in and they get that class gets a tour behind the scenes a little bit , a little bit more of a peek behind the curtain of what it takes to really run this place . And I'll have a few of them come up to me afterwards Like , wow , you got a lot going on up here . We're kind of a small city . We've got to kind of be prepared for a lot up here and um , kind of know how to do a lot of different things to keep this place up and going . Um , but that's not what you share with the world . You share the happy , shiny moments .

Eric Graves 42:29

Because the algorithms are trying to get everybody's eyes as much as possible and they're only going to send out to the ones like the way the social media works is essentially will say which of these is going to get the most views . Right , and it's going to only share it out to those that they think can do that . And people start to learn what the algorithm wants and so they start to share just those types of things , which is then you get that piece that you're saying just the sunsets over the mountains and all the things that are pretty , but what they don't show is like right now , we've got some spider webs that we've gone through , we've got some mud puddles .

Speaker 3 43:03

We went through . We've got wet toes right now . Yeah , wet toes , some bugs that we've ate Part of the day .

Eric Graves 43:08

Right , I keep pushing some bugs out of my ear . Those parts aren't pretty and nobody's going to usually show those , but that's part of hiking and part of life itself . Is those places where you're not stimulated , places where it's either boring or it's complicated and challenging . That goes back to what we said earlier , where you're trying to get the results without the process , and I think the process sometimes is kind of ugly and boring . But I think it's worth it because , um , I just finished a book it was called the little book of Ikigai , which is Japanese philosophy , which is essentially what the it's broken down or translated as what wakes you up in the morning and makes you get out of bed , right , yep , and part of that is what it says is the ?

Eric Graves 43:57

It's those small things like when they take a lot of pride in the craft of the making something , and when you make something it doesn't . You don't always get the end result that you're wanting , and so a lot of times in the japanese culture , they actually will ask the questions like what did it take to make this ? Because that part's's important as well , right , so if it took the person weeks and weeks to make one bowl , that bowl has a higher value than a machine that made it in five seconds .

Speaker 3 44:29

Right , and so what's interesting is we're talking about technology . I had to stop myself from pulling my phone out and typing a note in into my phone about the name of the book . I'll just get it from you later , I mean , but that's how , oh , yeah , yeah , that's using technology . It's not necessarily bad , but it's turned into my pen and paper in a lot of situations and that was my immediate like in uh , kind of reflex .

Speaker 3 44:55

Yeah , so you were saying a book , I'm not going to remember it in another mile . Yeah , um , I can ask you . But my immediate thought was I need to type that into my phone .

Eric Graves 45:02

Yes , you can look at it . Yeah , well , like it's what technology is trying to do , which is , again , nothing bad about this , but it's awesome . Oftentimes it's replacing the parts of our brain functions that we are typically using , like memory . Like , um , how many times do we take pictures or videos of places ? Sometimes there's a way that we can go back just to remember what we did .

Speaker 3 45:20

I often when I'm traveling , whether usually you know I'm doing some hiking trips . When I was section hiking the AT and flying to New England , I spent some of the time on the plane always going through my phone photos and deleting photos that just I don't need anymore , I don't want they were bad . Photos that just I don't need anymore , I don't want . They were bad . Um , the mundane cannot tell you how many pictures of notes I had , of things to do .

Speaker 3 45:51

Yeah , I had in my phone , I would literally write out what I needed to do for the day , the week or whatever it was , and then I would take a picture of it . So that way I had it with me all the time , because I wasn't probably going to have that notebook with me all day .

Eric Graves 46:03

Our to-do list , our reminders .

Speaker 3 46:05

The grocery list on the fridge .

Eric Graves 46:07

Yeah .

Speaker 3 46:07

I take a picture of it before going to the grocery store .

Eric Graves 46:11

That's great , yeah . Yeah , I mean it's replacing a lot of things that used to be so difficult to keep up with in our brain . Like , our brain only has so much capacity so we can't always rely on it for everything . Only has so much capacity , so we can't , you know , always rely on it for everything . But , um , generally the phone is has a great tool aspect like you want to be able to listen to music wherever you'd want to listen , to be able to have a camera on on your at any point , to have maps like I use my map to get here today , yep , and so all of those things are , you know , important tools that we use now . But did you find some ?

Speaker 3 46:46

tracks . Yeah , some turkey tracks . Oh cool , In the mud right here A few little squirrel tracks , but those bigger ones are some turkey tracks .

Eric Graves 46:55

We'll actually finish up here in a second , but one thing that reminded me of was on a prior episode a friend of mine . We were talking about walking was his word and as we were going through one section he heard a bird and he was like I wonder what that is . So he took his phone out , used the app to be able to track what , say what bird it was , and then he was able to say , oh , that's what that is . I can't remember what it was , but , again , a use of technology while we're walking in nature to be able to figure out something .

Speaker 3 47:26

I use the Merlin app all the time out here . Uh , you know the , the birds , I know you know . But every so often I hear something different , especially spring or fall migration season , and I'll hear something different and I'm like , hmm , wonder what that is . Yeah , and I'm literally just walking out here with my phone in my hand , listening , so it can hopefully pick that call up and help me identify what it is .

Eric Graves 47:49

So I think I think the biggest thing I mean , if I'm taken away from this conversation , I'll ask the same of you is , you know , when it comes back to where we talked about with the hike in and that need to kind of separate and that mental health aspect of why we need to somehow find these places where we can disconnect .

Eric Graves 48:09

For me personally , I think it does require . I don't think we can ever get to the point where we can expect that these companies that make this technology they're going to like regulate it for our best interest and our best mental health . No , they're not . Yeah , so because of that , as you mentioned in the book , it becomes on our , you know , responsibility to then be able to become more aware of what we're doing with technology , how we're using it and how it's impacting our brain functioning , our social skills , all of those things , how it's impacting our kids and how they're growing up . So putting in some measures , some being more intentional about using it , I think that's a big part of it . But , as we finish up here , what would you say in terms of our conversation ? What's your next step or even with a hike in when it comes to technology and mental health ?

Speaker 3 49:05

hike in when it comes to technology and mental health . From a personal side , you know I get not everybody has the national forest in their backyard to go walk in like I do . But you can be intentional at the county park during soccer practice . I understand a lot of people want to track miles and steps and that kind of stuff . You can do that without staring at that device while you're doing it . That's true . You can talk to a friend or a stranger that's walking the same pace as you . You can have that true interaction with somebody that's not through a device .

Speaker 3 49:37

The hike in how are we ? We've got signs up that say we encourage you to disconnect , don't use your cell phone . We also tell people when they check in . We understand you probably need to let somebody know that everything's fine and you made it . We just ask you do it quickly and quietly from your room . Devices have become so much of a tool , from identifying birds to taking pictures of flowers to identify them , to reading books on them . Um , you know , we've kind of got to where you know , as long as you're not on your phone and being loud and obnoxious , we're not going to say anything . We get it . It's , it's part of a tool that a lot of people use now , um , but when it comes to that hiking experience , we still want that meeting other people to be part of it . We saw it during COVID . It was part of it was an eye-opener for me . The whole COVID situation , with our family style dining , really didn't fit well .

Speaker 3 50:35

Oh , I bet so we separated out tables so if you and your family came up together , we set you at a table together . So this took a lot of work on the reservation side of limiting how many reservations we had based on how many tables available .

Speaker 3 50:47

If you came up by yourself , well , you got a table by yourself and it could not have been more awkward for you . Yeah , but the little groups that came up together , we just said you're a group together , so you're going to get to sit together . Still , we had a lot of our regular guests quit coming during COVID and they would call or email and say are you back to family style dining ?

Speaker 3 51:10

Oh yeah , that's the huge part of it , because that was a big part of their experience , was that meeting other people . So this is where , even so , oh , let's see , I was 18 years in my hiking career at this point in time and that was an eye opener for me of people quit coming because they could not interact with other guests like they wanted to , which was usually around meals . Um , you know , it was the , the common time everybody was together and it was a time you could talk freely with everybody and not just be listening to a program or a tour . Yeah , and that was kind of an eye-opener for me of seeing , you know , that was a big part of the experience and people didn't want to come because that was missing . Yeah , I bet .

Eric Graves 51:50

I mean , I remember that experience myself , like with my son and I . It was just being able to talk to people . It was just natural that people didn't feel uncomfortable . And when you're sitting at a table together with food around , as you said earlier , ask somebody to pass a meal or a dish , it just sparks a conversation naturally and people are going to ask where are you from and they want to know what hikes you've done and all the stories start to really explode around that dinner table .

Speaker 3 52:15

Right , and that's the hiking experience . Yeah , so we're not going to get people to not bring up technology , nor do we . We don't want people not to um , you can always something . Something can always happen on the trail , from a twisted ankle to hopefully nothing worse . But you may need guests to focus on um meeting the other guests and , you know , really enjoying that part of the process , um , so that's that's kind of where we're at Um , you know , providing that place for people to be able to disconnect and meet other people face to face that have a common experience of getting there , a common experience of getting there , but then sharing those life experiences that got them to the hike in .

Speaker 3 53:05

Yeah , as oftentimes you know that one family talking to another family that's been to the Grand Canyon you know I've been wanting to do that with my family but I just wasn't sure . And then all of a sudden , that dad , that mom shares what they did and how it worked for them . Then that family they've got that personal insight now that's not from a webpage and they're like , oh well , that was a great family , their kids enjoyed the hike in , our kids enjoyed the hike in . Maybe we'll steal that blueprint of what they did , and then they've got a little more of that community and family comes from that and that happens a lot .

Eric Graves 53:42

I'm sure many of them connect even afterwards Like they'll they'll reach back , or they do .

Speaker 3 53:46

And we see a lot of people , um , especially , you know , the families during spring break season . Um , maybe the spring breaks don't line up from Florida to Georgia the next year , so they make a effort to come back in the summer together and meet back up . Oh wow , so we see a lot of guests come back with friends that they met at the hike-in . That's how some of my section hiking buddies that I did the AT with or paddle trips . They were people I met at the hike-in and became friends with .

Eric Graves 54:15

Oh , that's amazing . So Well , thank you for doing this today . This is , I mean , this is a great conversation and just being willing to be a part of the podcast . But the conversation was something that's relevant because it's something we're all thinking about , because right now , technology is so pervasive and the need to be able to find

Finding Balance and Closing Thoughts

Eric Graves 54:32

, you know , even a tool to make yourself aware , you know , to be able to say that , ok , I need to be more intentional and be more aware of what I'm doing with technology .

Speaker 3 54:42

And it really disconnecting . It has to be intentional . Now you almost really have to make yourself do it and simply what we're doing here A couple pairs of running shoes or hiking shoes and a trail somewhere and just talking . It's becoming a skill . Being lost like we said earlier , it's amazing , this simple is part of what can get you there and recharge you .

Eric Graves 55:08

Yeah , because even the relationships that you build , the connections that you have , many of the people I've actually had on the podcast that I've done this experience with now I actually go and have lunch with them now or go on hikes again with them . So there's something about being in nature with others , especially like how the hike in brings people together , that it's meaningful , it connects people , um , and it it has stories that are allowed to develop , even , as you said , those times where the rain pours or they got caught in a storm . Those storms are still . Those stories are still important , um , and they're they allow us to be human and connect with others . So , again , thank you for doing this . I appreciate this . This was amazing , um , as we walk back through the let me have rhododendrons , I never can say that word Right , um , and so thanks again for being a part of this .

Speaker 3 55:56

Well , thank you for coming out and um talking and kind of being part of my normal Saturday morning routine . That helps me disconnect and recharge .

Eric Graves 56:06

So thank you .

Speaker 3 56:07

Thank you .

Andrew McEntyre 56:11

Thank you for listening to the deep in the woods episode with Eric Graves . I'll leave you with a quote from Anne Lamott Almost everything will work again if you unplug it for a few minutes , including you . I want to give a huge thank you to Eric Graves for this wonderful conversation and being willing to be a part of this podcast . I'd like to thank Ryan Cherry for the music in this episode and my daughter for the inspiration for the design of the podcast logo . Most of all , thank you for listening and I hope you'll join me again next time on Deep in the Woods . Thank you .