Women Are Not Your Competition: Friendships, Anxiety & Comparison – With Sally Probett (S1:E2)

What does it really mean to grow up as a girl today?

In this episode of To All The Girls Out There, I sit down with my secondary school form tutor for an honest and grounding conversation— about anxiety, comparison, friendships, womanhood, and learning to trust yourself.

We talk about why so many girls feel pressure to grow up too fast, how anxiety can turn into being “addicted to stress,” and why perfectionism can stop you from actually living your life. From struggling to make decisions, fearing getting things wrong, and feeling like you always need to explain yourself — to learning how to give yourself grace and breathe again.

My secondary school form tutor shares her perspective as a teacher and a woman, opening up about anxiety, therapy, confidence, and why healing doesn’t erase who you are — it helps you become more yourself. We also talk about why women are taught to compete with each other, how patriarchy shows up in subtle everyday ways, and why women are not your competition.

We get into:

• Anxiety, stress, and feeling scared to make decisions
• Growing up too fast and the pressure to be perfect
• Friendship struggles, comparison, and girlhood at school
• Asking for what you want and being more direct
• Womanhood, confidence, and choosing your own path
• Why healing doesn’t mean losing your personality
• Finding your people after leaving school
• Learning to appreciate the small moments in life

🤍 Connect with Sally

I’m so grateful to Sally for this conversation and for the impact she’s had on so many young people — in and beyond the classroom.

You can find her here:

• LinkedIn: Sally Probett
• Her business: Her Sunday Society— a brilliant platform she co-founded with her friend, doing meaningful work to support Women🌱

contact📞: contact@toallthegirlsoutthere.com
website👩🏽‍💻: toallthegirlsoutthere.com

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Transcript

To All The Girls (00:05)
Hey lovelies, welcome back to another episode of To All The Girls Out There. Today we have one of the most important women in my life. She's shaped the person that I am today and the woman that I'm growing into. The reason that I wanted to have her on is because she's so caring and like...

Sally (00:12)
Thank

To All The Girls (00:25)
just raw, intimate, like, she's just changed the lives of so many people. I don't even know if she knows that she's done that, but yeah, it's just one of the most open-minded and receptive people that I know. So I wanted to introduce Sally Forever. ⁓ Yeah, guys, if I do, if you hear me referring to her as Miss, I ask that you mind your business. My teacher, so like.

Sally (00:25)
.

Thank you, that's amazing.

Hahaha!

To All The Girls (00:53)
I can't actually call you so I don't know if ever be able to bring myself to call you by email. Yeah, it's just so... Yeah, it feels so disrespectful. I don't know, it's just like, it's odd. But yeah, thank you, Miss, again. And like, when I say that, I like, it's crazy because every time, you know when people say that saying of like, do you believe one person can change the world?

Sally (00:58)
No, that's fine. I was the same with my form tutor. , I was like, no, I can't.

Yeah, it's weird.

Okay.

To All The Girls (01:22)
Like whenever I think of that question, you're one of the people that comes to my mind straight away. I don't know if you know, do you know that you've made such a change?

Sally (01:35)
⁓ No, not really. don't really think about it because if I think about it then it becomes like, I don't know, it just gets a lot. So I'm trying here, I'm sitting here like, don't cry, don't cry. ⁓ But also like, I genuinely do believe, I was really fortunate that my form tutor was amazing when I was at school. And so, like, for me, it's like, I'm just literally just doing my job.

To All The Girls (01:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Do it.

Yeah. ⁓

Sally (02:06)
And I don't mean that in a horrible way, but like, yeah, to me, that's what I'm here for. That's why I'm in the school. That's why I get paid. That's why I show up every day. Do know what mean? It's not, yeah. So that's how I think of it, I think.

To All The Girls (02:23)
Yeah, you shouldn't downplay it though because it's like, obviously I know there's different reasons of why people do their jobs. Some people it's just for money and some people like, you know, like you said, like for yourself, like you feel like that's what you're supposed to do, you don't have to do that. I feel like you go above and beyond and it's like sometimes it's like give yourself like, what's the word? Like just allow yourself to feel like, you know, at least I've.

accomplishing something, on doing something because what you've done for us and what you've done for so many people and you continue to do, not everyone does it and you don't have to go above and beyond the way you go above and beyond I don't think you know so yeah definitely definitely definitely definitely appreciate that and I just want to say thank you

Sally (03:03)
Yeah.

I'm like, you, because it's

really, this is so cool. I'm like, where am I formed as a podcast? She's so amazing. That's me. I'm like every female teacher, I'm like, I'm sharing your podcast. I'm like, go on, go and see it, tell her she is.

To All The Girls (03:25)
thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you. No, because at first I was so scared, but now I'm like, you know what? Even when it comes to it, I'm just like, this is bigger than me. And it's like, I have to kind of tell myself, like, there's some there's people who need it out there. And for me to just be like embarrassed or ashamed and stuff like that. I was just like, this is selfish of you Fatima. Like how many other people? There's people who might need it and like.

I just felt like I'm holding back, like I have to think of it as like this is a bigger purpose, it's not just about me. And that's why it's like, cool, I might be scared, but I'm doing it scared because it's like, if I know I have to do it, then let me just go for it, if that makes sense.

Sally (03:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, 100%. But that's what I think that's how I feel with my job. It's like, I don't have to do these things. But if I don't, then I'm not being true to myself. Do get what I mean? Like I find it really hard to do things like 50%. And I've always been like that. Like my mum said, even when I was really little, I was always like that. If I didn't, if my heart wasn't in something, I'd just be like, I'm not doing it.

To All The Girls (04:08)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, I get that. And that kind of actually links me to the first question that I proper wanted to ask you was like, when you were younger, your childhood, what was that like? Give us an insight.

Sally (04:43)
Okay, so I'm very fortunate that I grew up, obviously in Manor Park, but both my parents were teachers. And so was me, my mum, my dad, my sister, my older sister, and we lived in Manor Park. My mum's dad still lives there. So I was really fortunate in the sense that we lived quite a middle-class upbringing. We were able to do things that maybe other people wouldn't have been able to do. We were taken to the theatre a lot. We were taken to...

Like I played violin from when I was seven. So there was a lot of like cultural things that were happening when we were growing up and experiences that we had. But then when I met other people, when I went to school and became close friends with people from Manor Park and they didn't have that situation, I think that's kind of what drove me to be like, but I just didn't understand why. I was like, why would you not go to a museum? Why would you not go to the theatre? Why do you feel like you can't? And so that has been...

something that has been kind of built into me is my mum and dad were very open-minded. They still are. They're very political. They're very politically active. They are, you know, they're very much like, they believe in equality for everybody. They believe in justice for people. They, like, my mum casually went about five years ago, we went, we were at an art exhibition and she was just like, oh yeah, so, and then, you know, before your sister was born, we used to just,

Your dad would drive around and ⁓ I'd have, she had like an old, you know the Kellogg's variety cereal boxes, they're like little. She had one of those, she had one of those and she painted it gray and she put a knitting needle in it and she pretended it was a walkie talkie. And my dad would drive around with her in the car and they would pretend they were undercover police. And so when like the NF were ⁓ putting like feces through people's letter boxes or spraying graffiti or doing swastika signs around Manor Park.

To All The Girls (06:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, those, yeah.

Sally (06:39)
my mum and my dad were there in this car pretending to be undercover police to scare off all the racist people. And I was just like, how are you saying that that casually, mum? And she was like, well, because that's what you did. And I was like, no, it isn't, though. There's like so many people who would not have done that. yet, and so I think that's where I get it from is like my parents have got a really strong sense of justice and what's right and what's wrong. And, you know, I grew up atheist, which is...

they're both atheists, they both were raised Christian and then became atheist. And yeah, it's just, so I did live a really kind of privileged life in the sense of where I was in Manor Park. And then also growing up in the time that I grew up in, like the nineties, it was a Labour government and they were putting so much money into like youth services and the arts and all of that. So I played violin, but it was, everybody was able to play the violin in Newham. Like you could,

could have lessons and it was like, I think it was like 30 pounds for a whole term and that included your lessons in school, your lessons on a Saturday morning from like nine to one, the instrument hire, the insurance, like everything and it was 30 quid. So it's like things like that and then when I went to the Youth Theatre at Theatre Royal it was two pound a week. So the things that I did it wasn't like it was really, really, really expensive whereas now and then there was like the Youth Centre that

by Little Ilford that ran all of their sessions and then Community Links did stuff in the holidays. so there was so much going on that was free or like subsidized or funded for children that there isn't anymore because it was all shut down then when the government changed and they got rid of all the youth services. I think it was like, it was a, it was a really special time in terms of politically. Manor Park was like, I loved it. I loved growing up there because there was always stuff to do.

So I was always really busy. then I think being surrounded by like all my friends wouldn't did not necessarily have that situation. So then I had a very strong understanding of what it's like to know one of my best friends is her mom's a single mom. She shared a bedroom with her three, her two sisters. So were three of them in one bedroom and then her mom had the other bedroom and that was like my best mate. So it wasn't like I wasn't aware of the other things that were happening, but it also we didn't care. Like we just

That was how she lived and that was how I lived and nobody really cared and nobody made any judgments based on it. And it's only when you went to uni and I met other people who were like proper posh and then I was like, wow, this is, this is wild And talking about like what our experiences were like at school at Little Illford, which were vastly different to people that went to other schools where there weren't police there every day. Do know what mean? Like people didn't get in trouble with.

or hit over the head with a shovel or smashed over the head with a glass bottle or that kind of, that wasn't their normality. And we didn't realize how abnormal it was until we met other people that hadn't lived that. And we were like, ⁓ so that's not how everybody grows up. Because you don't realize, when you're growing up in it. And then as soon as you move out of it and you meet other people and you're like, ⁓ hang on a minute, something, wait.

And I remember when I went to college and one of my friends didn't know what Diwali was. And I was like, how do you not know what Diwali is? Like you live 20 minutes away from me. And I've been learning about that since I was in primary school. So how do you not know? But he was just like, there were three Asian kids at my school. And I was like, what? And it's just that whole thing of like, suddenly realizing that Newham is not like everywhere else in the country.

To All The Girls (10:30)
It's

crazy, 100 % because I think that's something that I noticed in sixth form because like there was like an incident where like some people were just so uneducated as to like how other cultures worked or like even like Islam and how things worked and it was just like it's crazy how someone's mind can think so differently like you know and I just think

Sally (10:54)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (10:57)
It was such a shock to the system because it's just like, wow, like your first mind was to go for like danger or threat.

assume something when it's like when it comes to us being around Muslims or being around like people of a certain demograph you don't Automatically go to threat or danger. Do you know what I mean? And it's just like it's just like and it was just shocking because it was like cool I know that on the media certain things are portrayed something but I'll portrayed certain way sorry, but it's just like you will see a person and it's like wow you actually think like that like you believe that it's crazy and it's just

Sally (11:17)
Yeah, yeah.

Ha ha ha!

It is crazy.

To All The Girls (11:36)
It's funny because in that moment, I remember in the moment when that stuff was going on, I was just thinking back to how you, like how when I was in school with you, you actually, I think the thing is with you is you actually take the time to educate yourself. And like if you don't know something, it's like you're willing to try to understand and willing to learn. And I think it's so...

Sally (12:01)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (12:03)
It's so different because there's so many people who is like they think that they're woke because you you're hopping on trends or you're doing stuff. No, I'm not even trying to throw shade here, but like they think that they're woke because you know, like, I don't know, might post. Yeah, yeah. Like, hashtag Black Lives Matter, BLM and like, and it's like, but you fail to educate yourself and actually understand. And I'm not going to like.

Sally (12:17)
They put a black square on their Instagram.

To All The Girls (12:29)
penalise everyone because again like your upbringing might be different you know you might have grown outside of London you've not been around things but I think that you should definitely take the time to understand different cultures and different ways of life especially being in school and if you're gonna work in a school where like everyone is of a different like demograph it's important to like sit there and try to understand others despite you being different if that makes sense you don't have to be the same thing but just taking the steps

Sally (12:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

To All The Girls (12:59)
to ⁓ understand and it's just like, I wish there were more people like you in the world, but hey ho.

Sally (13:07)
Thanks. I think,

I think part of it is growing up in Manor Park and like, I was the minority, which that was my reality and I didn't I was in terms of my class, in terms of my friend group, in terms of the people that I knew, I was a minority. But then obviously it's different because on TV and in media, all I'm seeing is white people. I had, there was never like, I guess it's not the same as when you grow up and you're ⁓ like, you're the global majority, but you're a minority in terms of the,

country that you live in, but then you're not seeing any representation on TV, media, film, or if you are, it's all very negative. And I think just all of those things is like, didn't make any sense to me. And then I remember speaking to Ladi about it a couple of, not that long ago before Christmas, and just like, there are people who are academically woke in terms of they've read the books, they've done the research, they've really tried to educate themselves. And I have so much respect for that. But if you also don't then have

experience of people who have lived it, you're only 50 % of the way there because it's also like if you can read all the books that you want, but if your whole network is all people that are in the same kind of bubble as you, class bubble, race bubble, religion bubble, whatever it is, ethnicity, community, whatever, if that's a really small circle, it doesn't matter how much you read, you're not going to really know in depth the reality of it because your take on things is going to be different to

I don't know, something like my best friend who's also black and a woman, not a Muslim and same age as me. So then everybody's got their own lived experiences and their own things that have happened to them that have built whatever it is that their story. And if you don't have any first hand experience or you don't have any, maybe it's not first hand, like other people that you can talk to about it, then you kind of need to keep yourself in check. And I think that's something that I really learned being friends with Ladi because

there'd be times where I'd get really on my moral high horse and I'd be like, this is unfair because... And he was like, I don't want you to fight that battle. That's like, I don't need you to be angry. I don't need you to be angry and defiant right now. I need you to be quiet and I need you to just get it over with. I don't want you to, do you know what mean? Like in certain situations where he doesn't want me to, he's like, I don't want you to have that argument on my behalf because I just want it to be done. And it's really hard because it's like, but there's an injustice here. And so my...

instinct is to be like, want to fight that. But then I have to also respect that it's not my fight. And the person who's fight is doesn't want me to fight it. And as hard as that is, you have to go, okay, cool. I respect that I'm going to keep my mouth shut. That's fuming, but you have to keep your mouth shut. And I think there's such

There's

a real tendency in like some white people, this isn't me for a shade, want to do so much and it's like, we forget to listen to the people that it's affecting. So we think we're all this like, I need to make sure that I'm doing this and I'm doing this. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but have you spoken to the people that are affected by this because they might not want you to do that. And that's really difficult because you want to push for things and you want

things to change, but then if the person, if there's a person sitting there going, please don't do that, you have to listen to that and not just go, okay, cool, I'm gonna keep tumbling free with this, even though that person doesn't want me to do it.

To All The Girls (16:35)
That is so true. You've actually taught me something there. Because I feel like when there's something that I get like, I can be very like, I don't really care. But when there's something that I'm passionate about, I feel like that's when like the fire comes. And it's like, I've never really thought about it as in like, maybe they actually don't want you to say anything for them. ⁓ But sometimes it's just like, how can you not, you know? But then I get...

Sally (16:47)
Yeah.

Yeah, I And also, you know what

my face is like. Even if I don't say it, it's written all over my face.

To All The Girls (17:03)
Yeah. No, I get that. I get that.

my gosh, no, I actually felt like I've learned something now. But I also wanted to ask, like, growing up, what do you feel like were some of the things that you might have had to or was there anything that you felt like you had to navigate or like carry or deal with that people might not necessarily know or like see that you had to deal with?

Sally (17:33)
Yeah, I haven't got a diagnosis, but I'm 99 % sure that I'm autistic and that has come about from studying it. So I did a lot of academic research into it. I did a postgraduate into it because of working at Little Illford and specialising in SEN And then the more that I found out, the more that I researched, the more that I was like, this is ringing a lot of bells. And I think then when I think back to things that I struggled with when I was growing up,

a lot of it is really explained by this idea of potentially being autistic and very much like not really being able to navigate certain situations. I found it so I would practice, I have conversations with myself in my head and I'll practice conversations that I have to have with other people. I had selective mutism as well, which means that there were times where I would try to speak and I just physically couldn't, which is probably

people would be, because people, think people think I'm really confident because I'm a drama teacher. So they're like, you're meant to be really confident. But actually I am confident when I'm teaching. But if you put me in a room of people that I don't know, I will not speak to anyone. I'll just mind my business and stand in the corner and be really quiet. Cause I don't really know how to have those conversations. I don't really like small talk. ⁓ So like I find it really weird.

And people are like, how are you? Yeah, I'm OK. And when you come back after Christmas, everyone's like, how was your holiday? And you have to have all of those conversations. None of us care. Why are we having this conversation? Because none of us really care. ⁓ So I think there was a lot of that. then I was at Ms. Chadwick actually, on Saturday. I was talking to her. ⁓ she was saying, because obviously she was at, she taught, well, she didn't teach me, but she was a teacher when I was at school. And she was like, the thing with you, Sally, is you managed to navigate like,

To All The Girls (18:58)
Yeah.

Sally (19:24)
you weren't in any group, but you were in all the groups. Like everybody, everyone had respect for you. She said, but you, and you never, like I was never, I was, was clever, but I was never somebody that like the other people didn't like because I was clever, a bit like you. And I think part of that was like, ⁓ I was just honest. So I couldn't not be honest about what was going on. So I find it really hard to like buy into all the like, ⁓ wear this because then you can be put or.

speak like this so that you could or dress like that or speak to that like all of that kind of craziness. I just couldn't be bothered with and I didn't really understand the point of it. And I think at the time it was quite difficult. I was quite like I was really stroppy at school, really stroppy. I was really argumentative. I was really argumentative. I was really stroppy. was really yeah, I was really like no.

To All The Girls (20:15)
I can't imagine that.

I'm done imagining that. my gosh.

Sally (20:19)
I was really defensive,

I really defensive, I was bullied a lot, I was really defensive. then I had like, like really, really good friends. So, and I've always had really good friends because me and my sister never got on at all. So like, because we didn't start getting on until about five, no, maybe more than that, six years ago, six, seven years ago. ⁓ But like at school, she just acted like I didn't exist at all. And so

I was like, cool. So I kind of had to have really good friendships. And I'm grateful for that now because my friendships are like the thing that kind of holds me together. And they're the people that have like built me, I guess, over the years. ⁓ I forgot what your question was. What did I struggle with? So yeah, I sort of struggled with, I didn't really fit in with anybody until I found like the drama people. And then I sort of, that was when I found my tribe was drama and theatre and

and Chadwick always calls it the freaks and geeks. I'm definitely in that little group of like the nonconformists, the people that don't really buy into the trends or the social normality, all of that.

⁓ But I just, if I believed in something, I was like, you're not, I don't care. You're not, I will fall out with you over this. That's fine. Because I'm not changing my opinion. So I was, I wasn't very easily led. Like there was no, I didn't really struggle with peer pressure because I didn't buy into it. If that makes sense. And some, sometimes that meant that people then didn't want anything to do with me, which was fine. Obviously it hurt at the time, but

retrospective, like what it does is it weeds out the people that you don't need to be around because it weeds out all the fake people. But when you're going through that, it's really difficult because I remember having a group of friends and then we went away to Paris for a school French trip. And then I was they didn't realize I was in the bathroom and they just flagging me off. And I could hear everything that they were saying. And these are people that I was sharing a room with and I thought with my friends. And then I was like, wow.

And so I just locked myself in the bathroom and slept on the floor in the bathroom for the whole time that we were there. But the reality of that was it was like at the time that it happened, it was awful. But then within like two weeks, I was over it and it was like, OK, well, these are people that I can't trust. So and then it kind of I think that's sort of been something that I've lived through for a lot of my life. And in the end, ended up becoming really like Antoinette, who was like my best friend. She still is.

But other than that, most of my friends were blokes, were boys, because it was just easier. I got on with them better because it was honest and it was, there wasn't the duplicitous nature of like, well, I'm not talking to you because you're talking to me. And I can't, I just, it's just too much. And I know you can relate to that because you're exactly the same. You're just like, I'm not, I can't.

To All The Girls (23:07)
I believe you.

I used to my

days. And you know what is so funny because it's like, I don't know, because even for me, I remember in secondary school, friendships were so difficult. ⁓ I think like what made it hard for me was like, I just not, I kind of like just, I just didn't have the same mindset as a lot of people. And I feel like because I was a bit like more mature.

Sally (23:32)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (23:36)
then others, sometimes it was just like, we got along on some basis and then there was others where it was just like, I just didn't care. It was just a bit like, ugh. And so I felt like through the course of secondary school, I just kept like changing friendships because it was like, there was something that I was searching for that I wasn't getting. And then I remember like, it kind of like just got to a point where I was like, you know what, forget it. I'm just gonna be the friend that I wanna have.

Sally (23:56)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (24:03)
And then that's kind of what happened. And by the year 11 came, I was kind of like, I didn't have a specific friendship group. I kind of just spoke to everyone, but I still like had, still kind of like a close-knit set of people, if that makes sense. but yeah. But, I keep telling my sisters, cause even my sisters kind of like, they're going through it where it's just like, they're just like, oh, I can't like with friendships and like they'd be struggling.

Sally (24:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

To All The Girls (24:31)
or like they want new friendships and stuff like that or like fall out with certain people and I have to kind of remind them the same thing that you said like at the end of the day when you have strong values and when you're true to yourself that's what's gonna happen you're not gonna have as many people around you but it cuts out the fake people and you have to remind yourself like these people like not

Sally (24:51)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (24:56)
even to draw people out or bring people down but unfortunately like we live where people try to please others and with that becomes being fake you know because it's like you're not being authentic to yourself which means you can't be authentic to others like they're everything they do is for like impressing people but you can't impress everyone because if you impress everyone then technically like you're being deceitful because it's like if you

Sally (25:06)
Mm.

To All The Girls (25:26)
like this thing and the other person doesn't like that but then you're going to one person saying you like this and then lying to the other person like where's the integrity in that you know

Sally (25:35)
Also, it's exhausting. I just, it's just too much. Like, I just can't be bothered with it.

To All The Girls (25:36)
Yeah, it is very...

I get that and that's why I tell my sisters, because I know it can be lonely. I know it can be lonely, but you just like, you would rather just a piece than to just try to be friends with everyone and have everyone and people who are just going to drain you and hold you back.

Sally (25:58)
I think it's really hard at secondary school because you're not, you don't have any choice as to who you're with for the whole day because you're in a teaching group and you're just in this group. So you kind of have to be friends with somebody because otherwise like you're going to be miserable, right? Getting through a six hour day at school with nobody that you talk to. So I think it's really difficult. I'm really fortunate that I still speak to a lot of people that was at secondary school with. I only speak to one person I was at college with.

To All The Girls (26:03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (26:28)
properly, like I see him regularly. And then one person I went to uni with that I see regularly. And then there's the other people that I went to uni or college with, like, I don't not speak to them, but I don't see them regularly, if that makes sense. And then it's like, that's, it's so hard, because when you're in it, when you're a teenager, everything feels so, like, this is the most important thing. And then also, the world is telling you this is really important, your GCSE is the most important exam you're going to have.

To All The Girls (26:41)
Yeah.

Sally (26:57)
these are the best years of your life, but everybody's telling you one of that. And so then there's this huge amount of pressure on teenagers to be like, to be having this amazing time. But actually the reality is it's really hard. Like you couldn't pay me to be a teenager again. You really, really couldn't. And I loved it. I had a great time at school. But if you then put me in as a teen, are you kidding me with social media and phones? I'm so grateful. We have like...

To All The Girls (27:13)
Yeah. ⁓

Sally (27:22)
a Nokia, whatever it was, that you could play Snake on. that was the extent of, apart from when there was a one-to-one, so there's an old phone network that used to eventually, if you go back far enough, it's what T-Mobile became. It was called one-to-one. And they had this scam where you could call the voicemail directly, and it wouldn't cost you anything. So what people were doing was just calling the voicemail, leaving voicemail messages. And then that was how we'd communicate, because otherwise you'd have to pay like 50p for a text or whatever, because obviously WhatsApp didn't exist.

So everyone was doing what was called the voicemail scam. So that was how we were communicating is crazy on these phones that didn't do anything. then it was really exciting when a phone had a camera on it. But that wasn't until I was at uni. And now, yeah, yeah, all right. I'm that old. I'm joking. It's fine. But I'm really grateful for that because I just can't even begin to imagine what

To All The Girls (28:06)
⁓ sorry, sorry. Sorry.

Sally (28:21)
pressure is on young people today. And obviously I see it, but I'm not living that. To be a teenager, to have all of that, like it is carnage when you're a teenager, it is chaos. It doesn't matter how good your life is. It doesn't matter how privileged you are. doesn't matter how stable your home life is, whatever. Just being a teenager is chaos because biologically everything is going all over the place. So then adds into that, people can message you a hundred percent of the time.

You can never switch off. People have got your contact details. People can take photos of you when you're not looking. People can share those photos globally. Like it's wild. It's absolutely wild. And it's just like the pressure to be a certain way or to have certain amount of friends or to be popular. You can't like that's what your brains are programmed to do as a teenager is to fit in. then to then try and get people to understand. Don't worry about it.

And also time feels so much slower when you're younger. It's just, it's really hard. I genuinely, I think that's one of the reasons I love working with teenagers, because I'm like, you've got it really hard. Like this is really tough. There are other things that are tough when you become an adult, like bills and all of that kind of craziness and it's just rubbish. And like, you know, I remember talking to one class about Christmas presents and they were like, I'm going to ask for this, I'm going to ask for this. were like, miss what you asked for? And I was like.

I want to use to have flexi chopping boards and they were like, this is really boring. I was like, you wait until you're in your 30s and then come and tell me that chopping boards are boring. But it's like the stresses are different for adults and for teenagers. But honestly, I don't like I don't resent what teenagers have to go through now because it's crazy.

To All The Girls (30:05)
Yeah,

yeah, it's in and this is like I feel like people need to cut like teenagers some slack as well because it's just like it's like everyone like tries to blame all the new generations this and that and I'm just thinking like, you know what it is like they have a different set of problems now like everything has changed and it's not to say they might not have the same issues that you had like you might have had some things hard that they don't have hard fine, but like now like

Sally (30:11)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (30:33)
Social media is crazy and it's just like, even when I think back to when I was in school, I think just, thank God, like my parents were able to just have a lot of conversations with me and like, kind of like just helped to uplift me in like my confidence and my way of going about things. Cause it's just so easy to like compare yourself and like wanting to even like look.

Sally (30:56)
Okay.

To All The Girls (31:01)
like look a certain way or come across a certain way because even when there's certain things like for example even when it comes to like going to school for me like i wouldn't want to send like my child to school and i don't think you need to wear like immense amount of makeup especially at the age of like 13 you know 12 or whatever but then with social media you can't just sit here and be like oh my gosh don't wear like it's not as easy as just saying you don't need to be wearing makeup because there's so much that comes around it now

Sally (31:19)
Mm.

To All The Girls (31:31)
Do you know what I mean? I wish it was as simple as, like you're too young, you don't need it. But like when you go online now and you see your age mate is doing that, your age mate is wearing lashes and she's got lip gloss on and she's getting the attention and I look like this, you start comparing yourself and you start like, and it affects. then it's like, adults just easily look at it as like, they're just, ugh, I don't know, everyone wants to grow up too fast and da da da. And it's like, I understand where you are coming from, but.

Sally (31:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

To All The Girls (32:00)
This is what we're actually dealing with. Outside of this real life, there is a world inside that phone and inside that laptop, whatever it is that girls and guys that are looking at and comparing themselves to, and that is dictating how they come across in this outside world. It's a lot deeper than just, you're too young, or this and that, and you know? And I just wish that.

Sally (32:16)
Yes.

Yeah. But also

it's like, it's adults that are also buying into it. So there's adults saying, you don't need to do that, but they've got a full face of makeup on and they wouldn't dare put a picture of themselves on without a filter. And you're like, okay, but like, I find it really hypocritical. One of the reasons I don't wear makeup to work is because I find it really hypocritical to be sat there with a full face of makeup on and being like, girl, take your makeup off because like, then why am I wearing it? Do know what I mean? So even though

you know, some days I'll need it because I'm naked and i look awful But it's like that's the reality of life, isn't it? It's it. I don't know. I think practice what you preach, but a lot of people don't do that.

To All The Girls (33:03)
Yeah, but also it's like there's certain things that come at a certain point in time in it like of your of your life. So I think even as an adult, if you're sat there as an adult wearing makeup and you're telling a child not to wear makeup, it's slightly different when it's like because you're an adult, if that makes sense. And it's like, yeah, there's times even when it comes to like certain types of clothing, like, you know, there's like

Sally (33:10)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's slightly different.

To All The Girls (33:32)
an aid where it gets to like, okay, you can wear this now. Cause you know, it's, I think it's just more about protection when it comes to that. I think more so because when you wear certain stuff, when you have certain makeup, all of that, it naturally, especially as a young person, it can make you look older. And I think it comes from a place of like, you want to protect a child and let them like be a child. Does that make sense? Like what I'm trying to say, like you're a child.

Sally (33:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, 100%.

To All The Girls (34:02)
And it's important that you stay safe. People, unfortunately the world that we live in is not... There's crazy people, you know?

Sally (34:12)
That's

why set up Girls Club and I forced you all to come. And one of the reasons was because I was, I can't remember if it was a year seven lesson or year nine lesson. And I said, put your hands up if you've ever, I got everyone to close their eyes and I was like, put your hands up if you've ever been like cat called. I didn't use the term cat called, but whatever it was. And like all the girls put their hand up and not one boy did. And I was like, this is crazy. And it was like year eight or year nine. And you think,

people have not even got to year nine. They've not even got to 14, 15, and already they're being sexualized. This is nuts. And the boys were just like, what? Because they've got no idea that it's happening. Which obviously it's not their fault that they've got no idea it's not happening to them, so why would they know? But that was the whole reason. And then also like girls calling out other girls and just, it's like, if we want people to stop using these words against us, then we've got to stop using them to each other because

It starts with, it starts there. It starts with like, you can't be continually buying it. It's all been, you know, it's all misogyny from society that we then we've inherited and we've grown up with like the classic thing of, you know, you're going out with somebody, they cheat on you with someone else and you take it out on that person. It's like, no, the person that cheated is the person who you need to have the conversation with. But we've been led to believe that the problem is the extra person. It's like, no, it isn't.

you know, because women have had to fight to get into rooms. If there's another woman in the room, they're a competition. It's like, no, they're not your competition. Like build and Gina is one of the people that like, she's, she just, I remember going to one of her talks. You met her in it. She came in to girls club. Yes. She did a talk ages ago now for Gymshark. I went to, and she said, ⁓ cause she's one of the, she was one of the first like really successful black female PTs that blew up on Instagram in England or in London or whatever.

And someone said to her, oh, you need to stop bringing other people with you because there's only limited space. And she thought about it and she was like, she didn't want to do that, but that was what professionally she was being advised to do. And then she went into a supermarket. I'm really paraphrasing, so I could be completely butchering this. Sorry, Gina, if you're listening. She went into a supermarket and she getting some bread and she looked up and she was like, do you know how many different types of white bread there is? And then I thought, okay.

If we can have 20 different versions of a white slice loaf of bread, why can't we have more than one person that is a black woman that is a fitness instructor on Instagram? And so she was like, we need to be more like bread. We need to think more like bread. And it's so true. It's like she said, even with Siri as well, she's like, you go in and there's like, there's the shop brand version of Cornflakes, there's Kellogg's Cornflakes, there's someone else's version of Cornflakes. And that's just Cornflakes. So then we're being told that

We have to, as women, have to protect our space and not share it with people because there's only enough room for one of us. It's like there's 20 different types of white bread. What are you talking about?

To All The Girls (37:17)
Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, I get that.

Sally (37:20)
And I was just like, it's so true. And it's almost, it's like similar to what you were saying about your podcast, sort of like you're putting it out there because somebody might want to listen to it. Somebody might need it. And that it might be that you, it might be that you then get millions of followers and you get a global follower, whatever. But it could be that it's just, if it's changed one person's life, then that's an amazing thing. And I think that's sort of how I feel about teachers. Like if I can, if I even,

impact one person, then I've done my job.

To All The Girls (37:53)
And I feel like everyone is going to touch someone differently. Like that's the other thing like with like speaking to women, cause it's like, I can sit here and have a message and it may not be able, I might not be able to relay it to all the girls. might not hit certain girls. Whereas like you might have a message and like you can say something and it's going to hit them differently to how I would say it, you know? So I feel like everyone, they, should never feel like, there's like, there's already someone doing this or someone doing this. Like you,

Sally (37:58)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

To All The Girls (38:23)
have your own voice and it's gonna be different you have your own set unique path that's gonna be different and have a different impact on people you know and even go back yeah you'll see

Sally (38:27)
Yeah.

I

I was just going to say as a teacher, a lot of the time for ages, used to have kids go, miss, they said what I was going to say. And then my response now is always, is it exactly the same word for word? And they're like, no. I'm like, OK, cool. Still say what you were going to say. Because there might be a small bit. It might be the same point. You might be saying the same overall point, but the way that you phrase it is different. And your phrasing might mean that this person that didn't understand that person now gets it.

or it might trigger a different thought that then helps someone else, or it might make us go off in a different tangent about something else. So it's always worth saying your thing, even if you think someone's already said it, it's always worth Because unless it's literally a script and you're literally word for word, no, they've literally said word for word what I was going to say, like you said, there's always another little nugget that someone is going to add onto that, that is going to be different to what that person said.

To All The Girls (39:28)
100 % and that is kind of like because even with me there's so many ideas sometimes I'll be listening someone or like someone someone come up with an idea and I'm like oh like they've come up with the same like I was gonna do the same thing but it's exactly like what you said it's like if it's not exactly the same like word for word bar for bar if it's not exactly the same then there's always gonna be a difference even like sometimes when I listen you know when I listen to like podcasts or I listen to certain people speaking there's something that I would have heard like 700 times before

I've heard it so many times before but one person says it and somehow it clicks like it clicks differently to me It's like I've heard this before but like the way you said it just like Just hit differently. I don't know.

Sally (40:03)
Yeah.

Yeah.

And then that's when you get the looks That's like,

you know, when you have them, it's normally Mr. O and it's like, he said something to me and I've not listened or I have listened, but I did, I've been like, whatever, and just disregarded it. And then someone else calls it out and then I'll go back and I'm like, this person said this and he's like, did they? And I'm like.

To All The Girls (40:32)
that must be so

frustrating for him.

Sally (40:38)
It's okay, it happens

mutually. There's mutual times where, like, there's been times where he's been like, I owe you an apology because you know how you told me I shouldn't do this because of that? Well, I did it and then that happened and I'm like, I'm saying nothing.

To All The Girls (40:53)
Okay, we're gonna move on to a little section that I have. It's called giving her flowers. like, it kind of like what we was talking about, about how like women, like we've been accustomed to put ourselves against each other and stuff. And like how, yeah, we've just been put against each other. So I just wanted to have a section where dedicated to just giving.

Sally (41:00)
Okay.

To All The Girls (41:17)
whether it's one woman or a set of women like acknowledgement or homage and just appreciation. So if there's one woman or multiple women in this moment that you just wanna show appreciation to or for.

Sally (41:32)
Yeah, so obviously my mum, because my mum's a legend and I wouldn't be who I am if it wasn't for my mum and her mum because that's why my mum is like, yeah, Mrs. Prover and then her mum who is Mrs. Mansell and the reason my mum is the way she is is because of her mum. But then also, yeah, Antoinette, my best friend, because she calls me out on stuff still to this day. And she's the person that, so when we became friends,

To All The Girls (41:39)
this permit.

Sally (41:58)
She came around to my house and she was like, why is all your clothing black or navy? And then she just forced me into wearing colors. So she was the first person that forced me into like actually caring about what I wore. And there's other things as well. She's done loads more than just that superficialness. But yeah, I remember, like I remember that significantly. She also tried to braid my hair at one point. was hilarious. But so she's like my day one. And then ⁓ Miss Chadwick, because she's formed her and my drama teacher, actually, who's Miss Piper.

but she was Miss Angle when she was my drama teacher. So I had the same drama teacher for five years. And then when she left, I took her job. She immigrated to Australia and that's how I got the job at Little Ilford because they needed another drama teacher. So I took my old drama teacher's job. And the way that I teach is like an amalgamation of Whippy Goldberg from Sister Act Two, didn't realize until I rewatched it. And I was like, that's really similar to how I talk to people.

My drama teacher, I'm Miss Chadwick. So in terms of my teaching, ⁓ wouldn't be the teacher that I am if it wasn't for Miss Chadwick particularly, because she trained me. And then, yeah, there's so many women in my life that I'm so appreciative of. Otherwise I'll just be here forever, but those are my core ones, I think.

To All The Girls (43:26)
I love that, that is so sweet. I think you've said before that you took your old drama teacher's job but I don't remember. That's actually so cute. That is so cute.

Sally (43:37)
It was

honestly like, it was so bizarre because I was working in another school and I hated it. loved it. The students were great, but I hated the school. And I went in to speak to the head because there was staff being racist towards the students and the students reported it to me. So I reported to the head and he was like, yeah, but I don't want to make my staff uncomfortable. So I'm not going to do anything. So I was like, okay. And here's my resignation. He was like, can't.

I can't work somewhere where they're not going to do anything about the structural racism in the school and he's just going to let it happen. And then literally I was breaking it. So I was like, Oh my God, I've just resigned and I don't have a job. What am I going to do? And then either that day or the next day, Ms. Chadwick messaged me and was like, there's a job coming up at Little Illford. Dee's moving to Australia. Please apply. And I was like, that's crazy. And obviously this is

when I was athiest so I was just like, my God, I to come into this. And now I'm like, of course, of course, because, know, as my other friends, Reenact, I'll shout out her as well, because she's like, do you remember Miss Hart? Used to teach music at Little Auckland, she's singing teacher. Yeah, so she also, no, she's now a professional singer songwriter, but I'm going to shout her out as well, because she, every week, she's someone that...

To All The Girls (44:51)
Yeah, ⁓

Sally (45:03)
Like we have weekly check-ins with each other and it's like...

I don't know, she's just, her energy is just like unbelievable. And then she says things and then they happen. And it just, feel like she's got really good energy. And I feel like, yeah, I'm grateful that I have her in my life.

To All The Girls (45:26)
Yeah, she's a sweetie pie as well. She was really then. is it? ⁓ Thank you. We'll speak about that like after. ⁓ But yeah, thank you, Miss. That was actually that was so that was so cute and heartfelt. I like that you to like, you was like, yes, I know who I want to speak about. I love that. I also wanted to ask about ⁓ like a bit of anxiety because I know

Sally (45:29)
Yeah. She'd be good person for you to talk to actually. She's done loads of stuff. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hahaha!

To All The Girls (45:56)
I was struggling with as it got to like year 11 and like you helped me a lot with that but I used to My anxiety attacks were real back then as definitely calm down a lot of thank God But yeah, you helped me a lot and I just wanted to know like from your perspective and like your understanding how It has helped how it has shaped you over the years

Sally (46:25)
So I got diagnosed with anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder, OCD and complex post-traumatic stress disorder when you guys were in, no, before you started school, so like 2015 maybe. And...

Yeah, and it was, there was a part of it that was like a relief because I hadn't realised how many years I've lived feeling really anxious. And then there was, and then there was also a part of it that was like, because the anxiety and depression, the anxiety and depression was diagnosed really, really, really early. And then it wasn't until I had like my third lot of therapy that then there was this auntie and she was just like, she asked me something and I was talking about my experience and she was like, can you feel this for me? And then she was like, yeah, you've got

CPTSD and you've also got OCD. So we can't combat the anxiety until we've just like sorted out those things. So I think there's a real kind of, there's often, often girls get diagnosed with anxiety and depression and actually there's something else that is going on that you never get to the bottom of because it's being masked by the anxiety and the depression. And I think it's really difficult because people don't really understand.

And it's the what ifs. For me, it's the what ifs. It's the constant, like, what if this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens, and then it spirals into something catastrophic. And then it's, yeah, it's not been as bad recently, but there are times where I feel like it's, I don't know, I'm really being inarticulate. I feel like it's something that, it's like being an alcoholic in a sense of, I've never been an alcoholic, but it's that thing of like, you're always gonna live with it. So there's always gonna be the opportunity or the potential for,

for your brain to go back into that state. And so it's about, like I have people that I know that I can message and I'm just like, I'm having, like I'm on 20%. And then they'll be like, okay, cool. And I don't need to say anything other than that. I just need to be like, I'm onto it. Or I've got no spoons left. I don't know if you've known about the spoon theory, but it's originally for people that have got like, ⁓ my gosh, what's it called? Like chronic illnesses.

But the idea is that say you have like, you spent, you have five spoons a day and some things take away your spoons. So they take away your energy and some things give you the spoons. Let me give you back the energy. And sometimes it's like, I don't, I can't, don't have it. So there'll be times when I'll say to like, so Mr. O for example, is one of the people that he's, he's lived for it with me for a really long time. So I'll be like, I don't have the spoons for that. And he's like, okay, cool. And then he knows to back off. Or like my old housemate, she was really, really good as well. So.

there are people that I can, I just need to message. And I think it's having an acknowledgement that when the things get really, really bad and the thoughts get really bad and you feel, I used to always feel like, or my thing is I was feeling like I'm a burden, I'm a problem and I'm going to ruin everybody's life. And so then when I get into that state or I feel like I'm tipping into that state, I now I've promised certain people that I have to message them. And that's helped because what I

what would happen before would be that the thoughts in my head would tell me not to message anyone because I'm being a burden. And so it's really hard to like get past that. And there was a really, really good autobiography by a comedian called Susan Kalman that I listened to and she calls it, her anxiety, the crap of doom. And she's like, you give it a name and you call it that and then you suddenly, you externalize it to your own thoughts. So then you're like, that's not me speaking. That's the crap of doom.

And so she had the crab of doom and I had the worm of paranoia, which is like, cause I don't like things that don't have legs and mine is all paranoid. It's not, I don't have doom and gloom. have like paranoia that I've done something wrong or I'm going to do something wrong or it's going to be a catastrophe. That's what mine is less so than like, oh, just, it's just really sad or I don't really understand. Yeah. So for me, it was like the worm of paranoia. so

I'd like if I message my old housemate and she would just message back a little worm and I'd be like, okay, cool. That's not, that's not my rational brain talking. That's the worm talking. So I can ignore that. And I think having people that can help you with that, because at times you can feel like, like, I remember having conversations with, with Mr. O and being like, I feel like 90 % of me is this anxious mess. He's like, it's not, it's like 10 % of you.

It's just in this moment, you feel like it's 90%, but it isn't. It's only 10%. It's just 90 % at this moment in time, but that makes up 10 % of your life, if that makes sense. And so things like that where like having someone that can differentiate it for you. And it's really hard because then the worm of paranoia doesn't want you to believe that. And they're so loud. Those voices can be so loud. And so sometimes you have to just let them come in and you have to, you have to be like, okay, you can come and sit in the room.

Because if you don't let them sit in the room, I've now turned it into a person, but if you don't let them come and sit in the room, they're just going to keep banging on the door. But if you just open the door, it's like a cat trying to break in. So if you open the door and let them in, then they'll just sit in the corner quietly and they mind their business. But if you don't let them in the door, they're just going to keep banging, banging, banging, banging, banging. And then that's going to be more annoying or more detrimental than if you just open the door.

that make any sense?

To All The Girls (51:58)
No, no, yeah, 100%. I was just thinking. No, because I feel like everyone, because even sometimes I'd be speaking to my friends who like deal with anxiety and stuff. And it's just like everyone has different, like what they, the things that kind of trigger it and like their, even their ways of dealing it. Like I think even with me when it, because I would find that my anxiety would usually come.

Sally (52:00)
Yeah.

Mm.

To All The Girls (52:27)
after I've done something because I wanted to control my image like how I looked and it was like I have to be this certain way and it came from like trying to be perfect like I always say little miss perfect because I tried to be perfect and it was just like if I did something and I felt like it was like it didn't fit the person that I wanted to be or the way that I wanted to come across that was it and it was like I will

Sally (52:29)
Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

To All The Girls (52:56)
keep thinking I'll keep thinking and like to the point where it was and for me it wouldn't be like a panic attack but it would be like I will feel sick physically sick for like hours like I can't sleep properly like and I'm just sick and like there would be days and I would like and until like I could like vomit to release that out I would not I wouldn't be at peace like and was just like but then it was a thing

Sally (53:18)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And it never

goes. It's like, even if you're distracted, it's still there in the back of your mind. Yeah. It's crazy.

To All The Girls (53:28)
It was, it was, was,

thank God, like, I, there was some time, like, recently where I almost felt it coming. I don't know how I pushed it down, but I somehow managed to, but I just like, but back then it was just like, it was so hard and it was just like, it was new to me at the time as well, because I had never, proper gone through it. But then also, I think I thankfully had, like, my dad was very helpful, because I think he also had that.

Sally (53:57)
Mm.

To All The Girls (53:58)
He was very helpful in like just like when he was speaking to me and like just encouraging me with it and just trying to help me to navigate it but it was just like ⁓ it was such a scary point like it was just so scary but everyone has their different ways of ⁓ dealing with it and just making sure that you have the right people around you especially that because I remember when I first when I had my first ever like

anxiety attack where I just physically felt sick and I just felt like I wasn't in the real world. I was speaking to one of my friends and like I don't think that friend understood at the time and so this belief that I had in my head they were actually low-key reinforcing it to me and like it just made me feel even worse and like

Sally (54:41)
Mm.

Yeah.

To All The Girls (54:54)
I don't think they knew that that's what I was going through, but in the moment I was literally, I was just like panicking. I was like, I look like this. I appear this way. And then they were just kind of like, just reinforcing it. then it's just like, when I think now, like to the set of people I have, it's just like, that is so important and people underestimate it because it's just like having people who understand that and like get you and are uplifting you is so important because had I had like

kept that, like I feel like I would have still been in the same position where it's just like more consistent because you don't have anyone to kind of like help you navigate that if that makes sense.

Sally (55:33)
Yeah.

I think with stuff like anxiety or depression or any mental health stuff, having somebody that does understand it is so helpful because people that don't understand it and it's horrible. It's like a double-edged sword because you're like, don't ever want anyone to feel how I felt because it's awful. So I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But then if you find somebody that does know what that is like, it's just so helpful because what they're not going to do is try and

problem solve. And I think sometimes, particularly for me with anxiety, it was like, what do I need to do? What do I need to, what, how do I, what can I, there isn't, there isn't a solution to this. Well, what has caused it? And it's like, I don't know what has caused it, but you must know what's caused it. It's like, I don't know what, if I knew what, then I would work on what. And it's like sometimes that becomes really difficult because then it, like you said, it perpetuates this feeling of like, being a burden because I don't know what the problem is and I don't know how to stop it. And I don't have a solution and I don't know.

what caused it and I don't know what the trigger was and I don't have any answer to this person's questions. And so then I'm a failure even more and I'm being a burden so I need to keep it to myself. But then if you meet somebody that, and this is fortunate for me, my old housemate she had struggled with anxiety and it was one of the reasons that we got on. And so then with her, it was very much like, I feel like this and she'd be like, okay, cool. Do you want this? Like, do you want to sit and watch a film? Do you want me to leave you alone?

Or, okay, I'm going to sit here. Because sometimes it gets to the point where ⁓ I'm not able to make a decision. And so it's like, please don't ask me what I need because I don't know what I need. So then what I need is I need someone to tell me what to do because I can't make the right decision. So I need someone to not try and like, be like, do you think it would be a good idea to have a sandwich? They need to just be like, I've made you a sandwich. You need to eat it. Or I've, I'm going to sit here and we're going to watch this.

And I'm like, okay, cool. And it's like, you need, I need someone else to take the wheel because can't in that moment, I don't have the capacity to make decisions about the things that I need to make decisions about. And so because I don't have the capacity to, just won't. So there were often times where like, I just wouldn't eat because I'd be like, I don't know how to make a decision on what to eat. And I need someone to just make that decision because it's, it's like another thing I'm like,

To All The Girls (57:56)
So when you're... sorry, yeah.

Sally (58:03)
What if I get it wrong? Which goes back to that thing of you saying about the perfectionism, like what if I do this, but then what if this happens or what if this happens or what if this happens or what if this happens and what if this happens? And so then it's like, okay, it's safer just to not do anything. And then I'm not making any mistakes because I'm not doing anything.

To All The Girls (58:22)
that need for control that's been that's been like i've been like that very a lot recently like this need for control i'm really trying to like i have released a lot since i was like in school but even recently like i can still feel it like coming up and it's like sometimes i'll just have to tell myself like you're you're that you're thinking too much like and it's like it's about things that are so far

Sally (58:24)
Yeah, it's crazy.

you ⁓

To All The Girls (58:50)
ahead that I can't control but and like it's and it could be the most simplest decisions like like should I pay for this now or should I pay for it later but you're so scared of getting it wrong like you can't make a decision but it's just like look let's just focus like what's here what's in front of you and then also I noticed that sometimes like you like I don't know I sometimes like I've been deep in I don't I think I'm addicted to stress like

Because I will f- I will f- Is it?

Sally (59:20)
That's, you know, that's biological thing, right?

Yeah, so if your is to do with your cortisol level. if you're, if you've had, I don't look it up, because I'm going to completely butcher this. But if you like if your body is used to a high amount of stress, and you're constantly releasing cortisol, what happens is there's something hormonally that happens. But then when the danger has passed, your body doesn't know what to do anymore. So it keeps releasing.

To All The Girls (59:34)
Yeah.

Sally (59:49)
cortisol and then it keeps finding things to like yeah yeah

To All The Girls (59:52)
exactly that's

what it is. Like I will solve it. I'll be thinking about something, think about something, find the solution, then I find something else. And it's just like, am I allowed to breathe?

Sally (1:00:05)
But also just give yourself some grace because I'm still dealing with this Fatima and I'm 41, yeah. And you're what? 18, 20, 19? And you're trying to get a hold on it at 19 and like here's me at 41 and I'm like still haven't got it yet. But you know, maybe one day, I will figure it out. yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard.

To All The Girls (1:00:13)
19.

It's a learning, it's a learning curve.

Hopefully we get there. But then that's also what makes it like, that's part of you and like your journey, like part of me and like, like when I was in school, yeah, I feel like I was so uptight, like everything had to be perfect. Nothing could be wrong with me. I had to get everything right.

And like, when I came out of school, I actually realized I feel like that's not even the way, like you have, that gives you no substance or no story behind you, if that makes sense. And I felt like the moment I decided that, okay, you know what, I might actually just like take some risks and make some mistakes. Now I feel like there's more of a story to me, you know? Of course, I'm still like, I'm still navigating and certain stuff and I'm not here trying to say I'm going to go out and do the most craziest things and make

Sally (1:01:01)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:01:21)
silly decisions but in terms of taking risks and like if it goes this way if it goes that way then it does you know what I mean and that's what that's like of you so like if I battle with anxiety or if you do that that's part of you you know it's what makes it's one of the components that

Sally (1:01:31)
Yes.

Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:01:42)
make us us basically.

Sally (1:01:44)
One of the things when I first, because so I, when I first went to therapy, it's because Antoinette went to me, you need counselling if you don't go, I'm not speaking to you until you do. And that was what made me go to counselling. I like, no, I want you to not speak to me. And, and actually what I said to her was I will, but at the moment I feel like it hasn't scabbed over and if I pick it, it will, I'll bleed out. So I need to scab over before I go to counselling. And for counselling she was like, okay, fair enough. Anyway.

And one of the things I was terrified about, was like, what if I go and then they, they completely fix me and then I become really arrogant. What if it changes my personality completely? What if I become this really obnoxious person that thinks that they're brilliant at everything and is like everybody hates and they were like, and my friend was like, Sally, are you, hearing yourself? And I was like, but you don't know. And she was like, but are you hearing yourself? So I don't think people that, that ends up like that have those thoughts.

I'm like, but if they get rid of these thoughts, then what? Then I'm going to be really annoying. And so I was anxious. I was stressing out about going to therapy to potentially get over the fact that I'm anxious. Because was like, no, if I don't have that, then people might not like me.

To All The Girls (1:02:58)
That is... That's not even like... What's the job of the camera? It's so funny. No, but that happens though. And you ended up going, so... There you go. You have it. But, anyway, coming to the now, what you feel like... What season of life do feel like you're in right now?

Sally (1:03:04)
That's so ridiculous!

Yeah.

I don't know, spring? That seems really weird. I feel like things are changing, like things in my life are changing and I feel like there's new things that are happening and like, I don't know, I really do feel like, I know this is gonna sound really arrogant, I've just been saying, ⁓ my God, what if I get rid of my anxiety and become really arrogant? But I genuinely do believe that God has my back and I say that so often and then, okay. But that's what I feel like, I feel like I'm really, I feel protected.

To All The Girls (1:03:28)
You

Yeah.

That's not arrogant. That's not even closer arrogant. That's not arrogant.

Sally (1:03:55)
And I feel really grateful for things. And I feel like there's lots of new opportunities happening. And so I know that I'm like entering into my 40s and all of that kind of stuff. So age wise, I'm not in the spring because I guess that would be when you're younger. But like in terms of my yeah, in terms of what's going on in my life, I feel like there's a lot of new things happening and it's exciting. Like I feel like I'm entering an exciting time in my life. And that's really cool.

To All The Girls (1:04:26)
And what do you feel like? No, she's laughing. I was gonna say, what do you feel like you're still learning? Like, what do you feel like you're still navigating?

Sally (1:04:27)
you

Hahaha!

my

God, you're all learning. You don't ever stop learning. I genuinely believe that. I think ⁓ I'm still, if I'm being completely honest, I'm still learning to forgive myself when I get things wrong. I find that really, really hard. ⁓ I'm still learning to...

acknowledge the things that I've done well, if that makes sense. So like, something will happen, I'll achieve something, and I'm like, cool, next, what's next? And I don't allow myself to sit in the like, I know you did a really good job there. That was a really, that was really successful. I'm just on to the next thing. And so I think I'm still like that. But also, yeah.

To All The Girls (1:05:26)
I feel like that's very common. That is very common.

I think anyone listening to this definitely takes something from it because that is, people need to, we need to.

Sally (1:05:35)
Because it's so easy to

dwell on the things that we haven't done or the things that we need to do or whatever. But one of the things I learned in therapy, in my many vats of different versions of therapy, but one of was changing, should to could. So like, instead of saying, I should, Hoover, change my covers, make my dinners for the week, da da da da, and it's a chore.

you change it to, I could do that. And then it becomes an opportunity.

And it's a bit like fluffy, but it actually does work. I think having that like, Mr. O always tells me, he's like, just remember to be grateful for small things. And I do, but I'm grateful that he always tells me So it's like being grateful for the fact that, I don't know, I can't think of anything at the moment, but like, I don't ever get sick of seeing a sunset.

I never get sick of looking at the moon. Like, I always just think it's amazing. Yeah. Same.

To All The Girls (1:06:43)
⁓ Sorry, you know what is the moon is like wow is you Sorry, there was just one moment. There was a time where like I was just looking at the moon. Yeah in my room and like The moon the next day when I tried to look at the moon it wasn't there It's like you don't and the moment was so nice, but I didn't you just take it for granted

Sally (1:06:44)
You

Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:07:08)
I'll never forget that moment and it's like now every time I see the moon and I'm lying down in my bed and it's like bright in the sky I cry.

Sally (1:07:17)
Yeah, because it's amazing. And it's like, that's nuts. And so all of those things of like, you know, or like, just really beautiful scenery. But you go somewhere and you're like, oh god, this is really beautiful. Or yeah, just those little things where, or like just small things that just make you look like today in the car and Mr. O's son was like being naughty.

And I was sat there with my hand over my mouth, just trying so hard not to laugh. Because it's just like, this is hilarious. Just little moments like that where it pulls you out of all of the darkness. I think there's more, I feel like I'm aware of more of that now in life. that's why I feel like I'm in the spring. Because it's like, I'm very aware of the positive. I'm very aware of the tiny little things that people think are insignificant, but mean so much to me.

To All The Girls (1:07:48)
Yeah.

Sally (1:08:13)
⁓ Yeah, just those little moments.

To All The Girls (1:08:17)
Even like,

with even just like, health and stuff like that as well, sometimes like we take so many like regular, like normal mundane things for granted until you're sick, like I might lose my voice one day and I'm like, wow, what I would do to just speak normally again, or like throat is hurting or like just being able to swallow and it not being pain, like simple. Yeah.

Sally (1:08:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you know what we need to appreciate right now?

I said, I'm going to tell Ms. Oles, we can breathe out of both nostrils because you know when you've got a blocked nose, do know how annoying that is?

To All The Girls (1:08:50)
 Yeah. That's so true.

Sally (1:08:52)
But you can breathe.

But just literally tiny little things like that. OK, let's just take a moment. We can all breathe out of our noses. How cool is that? means I can go to sleep and not have to worry about which side I'm lying on. Great. Amazing. So yeah, I think I don't know what your question was, but yeah. I think I'd.

To All The Girls (1:09:04)
Yeah.

It was like in this

phase of life. But yeah, you summed it up quite well. And what would you say womanhood looks like? And like, what does it mean to you, for you personally?

Sally (1:09:14)
Yeah.

womanhood. I don't know. I still feel it's really weird. I still forget that I'm an adult at that time. That's important. But that's really, important. And it goes back to what you're saying about adults thinking children are growing up too fast. Because adults don't let themselves be children. They don't let themselves have the excitement that children do. They don't let themselves play. They don't let themselves be ridiculous. And I'm a big believer in being ridiculous at any given moment. And I think

Just because you're a certain age doesn't mean that you have to stop doing certain things.

So that's what womanhood means is choice and creating your own version of that. And I was brought up with no gender constraints in my household because my mum was like the one that was doing all the plastering in the building and the, you know, if she, I was teaching, if I was learning how to do DIY, it was my mum teaching me, it was never my dad. And so.

those kind of things of like, your gender shouldn't be limiting. It will limit you, society will make it limit you, but don't let it limit yourself. Don't limit yourself because of your gender, because there's nothing that you can't do. Well, there's certain things, like, if, you know, if your physical body parts are not needed for it, then why are you not letting yourself? ⁓

To All The Girls (1:10:57)
No, we get the We get the message.

Sally (1:11:01)
But do know what mean? It's like, well then

why not? Why can't you do that? Says who?

To All The Girls (1:11:10)
Yeah, 100%.

100%. Okay, I have another section. This is like a cute little, it's a bit unserious, but it's called If I Were You.

Sally (1:11:25)
Okay.

To All The Girls (1:11:25)
So

it's basically the previous guest would have had a scenario or something or like a scenario situation or something and then it's just like you would share like how you would deal with the situation or advice that you have and then you at the end leave another kind of like scenario or situation for the next guest yeah. So the situation I have for you is this says

So the person's just like, let's say they've just left school and like entered a new era of their life. ⁓ And they've been looking forward to making friends in like this new chapter, but they feel like they're not finding anybody. ⁓ They feel like they only have like one, maybe just like one close friend and then they're feeling rubbish about themselves. So if you were them, so if you were them, what would you do?

Sally (1:12:19)
Do you want me to be realistic or do want me to actually give advice? Okay, realistically, I probably would just sit by myself at home and be like, no one likes me. But what I think you have to find the people that have the same energy as you and that that isn't and often isn't where you work. Particularly

To All The Girls (1:12:23)
⁓ both, whatever, whatever.

Sally (1:12:47)
if you're not in a vocational job, like teaching is a bit different because that's like, that's what I want to do now, or that's what I've wanted to do for a while. And so there's other people that are in that profession that I'm going to find that are going to have similar vibe to me because we're in the same profession. But if you're working in like, my first job was at Debenhams, stacking shelves, but I'm not finding my vibes there because it's just people that are working for money. So then what you've got to do is find what is that you love doing.

and find people that love doing that. So if you love cooking, go to a cookery class and find other people that love cooking. If you love dancing, go to a dance class. If you love painting, go paint, go find a painting group. If you love sport, go and join a sports team. If you love music, join something. So find the thing that you love because that's where you'll find the people that are your kindred spirits that will be your tribe. And that those people are often not

particularly in your first job because it's just, and particularly in any job where you're just doing a job because it's money. And obviously everybody, that's why people work, is that we have to have money. But if you have the blessing of being able to do a job that you love and earn money from it, that's a different kettle of fish, but most people don't have that. So then you've got to find your people ⁓ in the things that you love.

To All The Girls (1:14:09)
that's actually really... because yeah that's so true. I might actually take a leaf out of that book myself but also I don't really care.

Sally (1:14:21)
No, but like, I think it's really funny because when you're a child, you have so you have hobbies because you're constantly told, go to this club, go to this club, go to this. And then adults just don't. I do. I'm always getting in trouble for the amount of stuff that I do. But like, I know a lot of adults that just don't do any of those things anymore. And it's like, well, how do you expect to make friends then? Because they're the. Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:14:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's true. You definitely have to put out

there. Even like me myself, because I, if it's not like work or like the course that I'm doing, I'm at home all the time. Like I really do not like even my house. And sometimes I tell myself, okay, I need to start like doing this and doing that. But I just can't bothered. But definitely.

Sally (1:15:03)
But that's a bit different.

If you can't be bothered, it's a bit different to if you feel like you're lonely. Do you know what mean? Because if you feel happy in your isolation, then there's no problem with that.

To All The Girls (1:15:09)
Yeah.

Yeah, 100%. Okay, great. Thank you. And then now you need to leave a situation for the next guest.

Sally (1:15:22)
Okay, my scenario is you have got to deliver a presentation on something to a group of people and you get really anxious public speaking.

Is that okay? Is that enough of a scenario? So like in a week, you've got to do a presentation to a group of people, but you know that you don't like public speaking. So what are gonna do?

To All The Girls (1:15:44)
Yeah, okay. So.

yeah okay so if they were you what would they do okay okay perfect and then that's for next week's one I'm looking forward to hearing their answer I

Sally (1:16:10)
I hate public speaking

so much. No, still don't like it. Hate it.

To All The Girls (1:16:12)
Yeah, I remember you didn't like when I was in school, didn't like public speaking

You know what's crazy? I feel like I prefer to speak at like public speaking where there's like hella people than to speak in a more like intimate space. And also it's worse when I have to talk about myself. Like if I have to talk about myself in like a small kind of group of people, I forget about it. But if it's like public, I feel like I can do that a lot better.

Sally (1:16:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

To All The Girls (1:16:48)
I don't know, it's really weird.

Sally (1:16:50)
It depends on the audience. If you put me in a room of the whole school, but it just the students, not a problem. But you put 20 teachers in there I'm like, I'm okay, thanks.

To All The Girls (1:17:00)
yeah okay yeah good no i understand

that i understand now

Sally (1:17:07)
If you put my mum

in there, my god, then I'm like, nope, no, no, I don't know, I've always been, this is what I mean about when I said ages ago, I had selective mutism. When I was a child and I learned how to read and my teacher would send me home and she'd like, have to read aloud to your parents. And my mum would sit with me in the dining room and I would just refuse, I'd just sit there. And she'd be like, you need to read aloud. I'd be like, mm-hmm. And I just physically couldn't read aloud to my mum. That's the only thing that she'd just give up. But at school, I put my hands up and read.

all day every day, but to my mum, I just couldn't do it.

To All The Girls (1:17:40)
Is it like fear? like... ⁓

Sally (1:17:42)
Yeah,

like real extreme anxiety for no reason. And it felt like I had a lump in my throat and I just couldn't physically get the words out.

To All The Girls (1:17:51)
No way. Your mum is like, no, cause you know it is, your mum is not to be played with as well though. She is serious. She's a serious, she's serious. ⁓ I love that. Shout out Mrs. Probert,

Sally (1:17:57)
It's so true. She is. She's serious. ⁓

To All The Girls (1:18:09)
yeah, so like, you know, again, kind of like going back to like the Girls Club stuff because you being Ms Probett of course, like you did a lot for us as like girls and starting like Girls Club and just ⁓ doing a lot of work with like young women and like influencing us, even like holding the WoW event and stuff, bringing us to the actual event and then like making our own one. So I know like you have a lot of...

Sally (1:18:30)
Hmm.

To All The Girls (1:18:37)
What's the word? I would say insight or understanding of young girls and from what you've done and your experience, would you feel like most young girls or young women struggle with the most internally?

Sally (1:18:54)
Comparison and competing. Those are the two things that I think is so sad that we don't realize that we're doing it because we've been so gaslit by society to do it. And it's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. you have to be aware that it happens to stop yourself doing it. So I think that's the big thing for me is you know that she's not your competition.

that kind of thing.

the systemic patriarchal society that we live in with entrenched misogyny. No, but it's true. It's that whole thing of like, you know, there's only ever space for one, there's only ever space for one woman in that room or there's only ever space for that person. You can only, you can like, you can be a person of colour, but only, we're only having one of them. So then you've got to compete with it. It's like, it's nonsense. There's enough space for everyone. We live in a

To All The Girls (1:19:33)
That was so heavy.

Yeah.

Sally (1:19:55)
Capitalism makes us believe that there isn't enough for everybody and that if we share too much, the resources are going to run out and the reality is that's not true.

To All The Girls (1:20:05)
I also feel like, I don't know, I feel like from a young age, yeah, I don't know how but like even in the media in school, there's like, there's this certain level of power that...

guys have in terms of like domi- in terms of dominating. I feel like when you reach like second- like secondary, right? That's the age where like hormones are like coming in and like you start gaining attraction to like the opposite sex so obviously like naturally ⁓ you're gonna wanna impress the other or whatnot and whatnot but then it- it gets to a point where it's like I feel like... ugh... girls would...

either like compare or like put other girls down because of how guys were so free to like say or do whatever they want like you see how guys like take up majority of the playground like they they're so ruthless especially in like secondary school and they will say things to girls and stuff I remember being in school I remember when I was in secondary school for a while like

I actually wish that I was a boy, I thought that it would be so much more easier to be a boy. I don't feel like that now at all, but... I'm even close. But at the time, I just thought that they had it so much easier because it was like, first of all, boys would feel free to say whatever it is that they like to girls, they would say something, they would cross the girl out and then their boy would also back them and defend them in whatever it is they're saying. Whereas like girls, if...

And then when they said that to a girl, the other girl wouldn't defend because they're scared that if they defend, they're going to now get onto them. And then like, it just becomes like, I don't know, you end up in fear, but also living for them and also wanting their like validation. And then you find yourself naturally comparing like.

Sally (1:21:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:22:09)
to the things that are glamorized or the things that, you know, if they're saying this about this girl, then I don't want to have that trait. So I'm going to make myself this way. And it's like, I don't know. And that's why I just felt like, I remember one time, like speaking to my brother, I was like, you guys have it so easy. He's like, why do you say that? And I'm just like, because that's just, but then again, that was just in school, like, yeah, it was just like, they had that element of power that I feel like then affects girls. And it's just like,

Sally (1:22:17)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:22:39)
they now feel like they need to impress these guys or like, I don't know, they're the judgment or da-da-da-da in society. I don't know how to explain, how to articulate.

Sally (1:22:44)
Yeah.

No, but

it's true. There's a level of like, it doesn't matter. I think I said this to you guys when you were in my form. It doesn't matter how I did because I remember it was Alicia and Shake were messing around and she accidentally hit him. And I remember saying something about like, it doesn't matter how strong you are as a woman. A fully grown man is always going to be able to overpower you physically. ⁓

That's as much as that frustrates me, as much as I don't want that to be true, that is fact. And so there are things that we subconsciously have to do to be safe because it is not safe. And so all of those things of like keeping your mouth shut, don't back up your friend, all of those kinds of things, they're all subconscious things that we've learned from society to keep ourselves safe. And you can't blame women for that, but equally.

the more aware we are that that happens, the more hopefully we can undo it.

because yeah, it's really hard because you want to protect yourself. But at what it's like, when does that go too far that you've then you're stepping into dangerous territory where you're not making a fuss, but you need to make a fuss? I think more women and more girls need to make more of a fuss.

To All The Girls (1:24:21)
on all my days, it's crazy, because I was literally saying this to someone the other day. And I was literally saying, how like, as women, we're so... We don't want to speak up or, like, even be direct. said, and I say, one thing that I have learned from men, like, there's this one guy in my work, is asking for what you want and being a lot more direct. And I feel like men aren't afraid to do that. And I feel like that's why things like, even like...

Sally (1:24:41)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:24:47)
If we was to ask for more, maybe there would be a better chance of us getting paid more if we just demanded it. You know what I mean? Because it's like, I will watch, was a guy who was sending an email.

Sally (1:24:54)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:25:00)
And just watched how he typed the email. It wasn't rude, but it was so direct. And I looked at him and I was like, wow, like you didn't, he was like, look, like we see this is work. can't like, yes, you can be respectful, but you can't just be around a bush. At the of the day, like, cause I think it was something to do with like his money and how much he was getting paid or something like that. And he's like, you can't like play around with these kinds of things. Like you need to be straight. I said, wow. Like, and if we could just take that out of us.

and learn from that. I feel like that would be so much more different. Like just ask. Ask or like be... Do you know what I mean? Like just be direct.

Sally (1:25:41)
Yes, don't prep

it. It's like things like in meetings going, oh, sorry, I wasn't sure if women do a lot of, I can't remember what the term is, it's a sociological thing. It's like apologizing before you speak. or presenting an idea is like, oh, I'm not 100, you know 100 % is what you need to do, but you have to say, oh, maybe we could, and it's like, again, it's to do with protection, it's to do with, you don't want to rock the boat,

And some people have very fragile egos. And so then what you do is you present the idea as like a suggestion or as an apology or, or like people that there's a whole thing about you can say no and not give a reason. Women feel like we can't say no and not justify it. So someone says, can you do this? And then you can just say no.

but we've been trained to go, ⁓ I'm not sure because maybe, and then give this whole backstory, just say no.

To All The Girls (1:26:39)
Yeah, 100%. That's why I love, like, there's a lot of women now that I'm seeing, like, just empowering women who are able to, like, you know, like, step into that, like, fierce kind of learning how to be unapologetic about that, if you know what I mean. And, like, that's definitely, I think, of course, everything is in, moderation. There's a time and a place for everything.

And there's definitely, yeah, 100%. And it's definitely something that I aspire to like, to get to a point where it's just like, you know, cause I feel like that's so freeing as well. It's, it's a bit like tiring, even things like, oh, I just wanted to say, so no, let's just be direct. Let's just, let's just be direct. Like, this is what I want to say. Let's just cut to the chase. Do you know what I mean? I feel like it would just be a lot more.

Sally (1:27:02)
Yeah, you don't have to be rude.

Thank

To All The Girls (1:27:29)
a lot more different for us. I think it is, think like in online, I'm starting to see more of it and more people being influenced by it. But then again, of course you get people who, like you said, ego, there's people whose ego it does rattle. listen, women are powerful

Sally (1:27:51)
100%.

To All The Girls (1:27:52)
we just need to stop letting outside sources like, dumb. Yeah, literally. think even even when it comes to things like for me personally, like even when it comes to things like with the patriarchy and stuff, I refuse to let that be a reason for me to sit here and say like, OK, I'm not going to try this or I'm not going to do this or I'm not going to do you know what I mean? Because it's those

Sally (1:27:56)
It's very not power.

100 percent.

To All The Girls (1:28:19)
fine I'm not gonna sit here and lie and say it doesn't exist I think it definitely does but I don't think we should ever use that as something for us to sit here and be like we can't we can't we can and there's trail there's trailblazers there's women who have done things before us and who says who's to say that you can't be that person too to be the first woman who's done this and then like be a breakthrough for others to come through

Sally (1:28:30)
I can't yet.

To All The Girls (1:28:46)
⁓ And I think time and time again, we're seeing it day in day out with social media I think that's one of the good things about it is that like you can be influenced and you can see all these people around so I just really hope that like a lot of girls don't feel like you know, well I don't want to go into this industry because you know, it's really male-dominated or like Like you can You know

Sally (1:29:11)
Yeah, if

you get in it and then you hate it, that's your business. That's one thing. no, but do know what mean? Like, don't stop yourself because you think that you don't deserve to be there.

To All The Girls (1:29:14)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah, 100%. Or even like feel like you need to change yourself as well. I feel like sometimes, like, I think I was having this conversation, I can't remember who with, but I was saying like, with society, and like where we've got to, I think like there's become a stage where sometimes I think people get some things misinterpreted in terms of.

Sally (1:29:30)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:29:51)
I don't know if it's feminism or what it is, but when it comes to trying to prove certain things, it's like, when you, for example, let's say it comes to a job, right? You wanna be a lawyer, and you're a woman, and let's say corporate, and you feel like you need to change yourself or show that.

Sally (1:30:00)
Yeah.

To All The Girls (1:30:17)
okay I'm a woman but I don't really want to have kids or I don't really want to do this and yada yada yada to get that job and I feel like you can... what was I trying to say? I feel like if you want to go for a job yeah and you want to have kids and you want to do whatever it is you're gonna go to that job and they're gonna employ you or they should employ you because you're a goddamn good lawyer not because

Sally (1:30:42)
Yep.

To All The Girls (1:30:43)
other traits that you feel like you need to die down and if they're gonna sit here and they're not gonna employ you then shame on them because they're losing out. Do you know what I mean? I don't feel like in any way you should play down any things that you feel like they're seen as undesirable. If you know like you're a sick lawyer then you're a sick lawyer and like you're gonna go to someone who's gonna pay you what you deserve you know? Because I thought that's what men are like you know?

Sally (1:30:51)
100%.

episode.

To All The Girls (1:31:10)
If it's like, you're not gonna pay me this, then I'm not gonna do it.

Sally (1:31:14)
Did you not know the whole thing about, there's a statistic, I don't know the actual internet, you might want to look it up, but it's like when a man applies for a job, if there's 10 criteria, if they can do five as a criteria, they'll apply for the job and think they deserve to get it. And for women, if they can't do all 10, they won't even apply.

To All The Girls (1:31:32)
No way. Is that actually? That is crazy. I didn't know, I knew it was common I didn't know it was that.

Sally (1:31:35)
Yeah.

And it's that thing of like having have the same confidence in yourself as a mediocre man in business does in their self.

To All The Girls (1:31:49)
100 % 100 % because 9 times out 10 you have more like not even more but you like maybe more value you might you might actually bring more value than the next person but I think it's definitely also like how you sell yourself and how you believe that belief that you have like you know and I feel like to stop doubting or like it goes back to asking for more and demanding more basically

Sally (1:31:55)
You bring them all.

Yeah.

Second guess then.

Yeah. I'm so proud of you. They're so, it's so mad. It's like, oh, I remember when I had to tell you off in year seven.

To All The Girls (1:32:19)
to what I was saying.

thank you so

Making me blush

When did you have to when I was when I was speaking to Alicia that one time

Sally (1:32:41)
Yeah, yeah, there was time and

I was like, what happened? And you were like, she's really bit. And then I was like, oh, OK, I told us wrong person here.

To All The Girls (1:32:46)
I never

forget that day. That was so funny. I know, it so funny because I was so heated. I remember just like, we were actually like, that was so funny.

Sally (1:32:58)
You were right though, what you were saying was right.

To All The Girls (1:33:01)
Yeah,

I don't know where that came from.

Sally (1:33:04)
I don't know what it was about either, I just remember that you were right and I should have had a go at her.

To All The Girls (1:33:06)
I

remember it was something like someone was saying something about her and she was so warmed up about them saying something about her and I was like why do you even care if it's not true? I think it was I was like it's not true it's like doesn't matter like because she was like she was going back and forth with person I was like it's not true you know like I always say it to my sisters and stuff I say you know what like you know when like certain people try and like curse you out or like say something

Sally (1:33:17)
Yeah.

are the amount

of stuff that's been made up about me over my life. And I'm like, I wish my life was as interesting as you've just made it out to be. It really isn't, but you carry on.

To All The Girls (1:33:38)
Yes!

People

like to use other people's scapegoats for their own life. anyway, let's wrap this up because it's been a while. The last thing that I just want to ask you for is if... So in every episode, I want to end with a message to all the girls out there. So if you could leave the girls out there with one message today.

Sally (1:33:47)
But yeah.

To All The Girls (1:34:11)
What would that message be?

Sally (1:34:13)
That feels like a lot of pressure.

Women are not your competitors.

To All The Girls (1:34:18)
100 % 100 % yeah that's a good one why are you waiting for my like confirmation

Sally (1:34:24)
Okay.

No, no, I was just like, there is a caveat, but that's probably not for the episode. That's just, but obviously some women are not very nice. But in general.

To All The Girls (1:34:39)
Yeah, but they're not

they're not worth your time

Sally (1:34:43)
Yeah, exactly. So they're still not your competitors, you're right, because they're not worth your energy.

To All The Girls (1:34:47)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much, Miss. It's actually been such a fun session as well. Really nice. Thank you so much. ⁓ Thanks guys for listening. I'll see you next week. Bye.

Sally (1:34:54)
Yeah, it's been really good. Thank you.