"The Karen Carpenter Story" (1989) with Special Guest Randy L. Schmidt

We're on the top of the world today at "Going Hollywood" as we have a truly special guest to discuss a truly special artist...Randy L. Schmidt is here to discuss the one and only Karen Carpenter!

 A drummer first, a once‑in‑a‑century voice second, and a reluctant star always—the Karen Carpenter Story is as riveting as the records she left behind. We sit down with the author of the bestselling book Little Girl Blue and director of "Karen Carpenter: Starving for Perfection" (2024), to unpack how a 1989 TV movie created a tidal wave of new fans and why his documentary brings the real Karen back to the mic.

Randy takes us behind the scenes of the seminal TV movie from 1989, "The Karen Carpenter Story". We talk about the beyond-meta nature of the filming in the Carpenter home, wearing Karen’s actual wardrobe, and the surreal moment when the same local paramedics from 1983 appeared on set. Then we pivot to the documentary’s heartbeat—rare, uncut interview tapes and birthday call‑ins that reveal Karen’s wit, warmth, and resilience. Voices like Olivia Newton‑John, Carol Burnett, Kristin Chenoweth, Belinda Carlisle, and Cherry Boone add piercing insight into the art, the illness, and the person.

We dig into the questions that still echo: how a perfectionist culture and a misunderstood eating disorder collided, why that infamous UK ambush interview still shocks, and what might have changed if Karen’s solo album had been released instead of shelved. Along the way, we celebrate the music—"Superstar", "I Need To Be In Love", "We've Only Just Begun"—and the arranging magic that made the Carpenters timeless. The takeaway is clear: honor the legacy, tell the truth with care, and let the songs keep doing what they’ve always done—find new hearts to live in.

If this conversation moved you, follow and share the show, leave a quick review, and send it to someone who needs a reminder of how powerful a single voice can be. And don't forget to visit the "Going Hollywood" Spotify playlist to listen to the exquisite voice of the century, Karen Carpenter.  It's Yesterday once more....

To watch "Karen Carpenter: Starving for Perfection" go to https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0D6ZW9N6M/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r

To read "Little Girl Blue: The Life of Karen Carpenter" go to https://a.co/d/0blvCi2

Links to Tony's website, and Brad's website at www.goinghollywoodpodcast.com

Follow us on Instagram @goinghollywoodpod

To watch "The True Story of the Barrymores," go to https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0CZTHYN6D/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r

To watch Tony's WIRED video "Tech Support: Old Hollywood" go to https://youtu.be/6hxXfxhQSz0?si=TO4Xv6q87XhBnqDT

Reach us at goinghollywoodpodcast@gmail.com

Listen to our Going Hollywood Playlist

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Transcript

Tony Maietta:
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions, too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.


Tony Maietta:
Well, all I can say is such a feeling is coming over me. We are on top of the world today at Going Hollywood. And the reason is clear. It's because my friend Brandy is here. Randy Schmidt, welcome to the podcast. Randy.

Randy Schmidt:
Love the introduction. Thank you. Maybe the best ever.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I felt a little bit like. And you would get this. I felt a little bit like Judy when she was doing that be my guest bit during her TV show. It's Mickey Rooney. He's on my show. It's Randy Schmidt. He's on my show. Oh, I'm so, so happy to have you here.

Tony Maietta:
Randy. Thank you so much for taking time out of your incredibly busy schedule to join us on Going Hollywood. I'm so excited to have you because we are going to talk today about one of the, I think, for me, seminal TV movies ever. And I think probably for you, too. I had a feeling maybe the Karen Carpenter story from 1989. And we're talking about all things Carpenter, too. But first, since this is your very first time on the show, Randy, I just want to. If you'll indulge me and don't get embarrassed, I'm going to give you a little introduction.

Tony Maietta:
You can correct me if you want to on some of this stuff because I just, I don't know. You know, Randy is the author of, in my opinion, the seminal, seminal Karen Carpenter biography, Little Girl Blue. I mean, it's phenomenal. It's Little Girl Blue, the Life of Karen Carpenter, which I believe was a New York Times editor's choice, and Wall Street Journal, bestseller. Is that correct? Am I right with this?

Randy Schmidt:
Those are both correct, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
That's. That's so amazing.

Randy Schmidt:
That's crazy.

Tony Maietta:
It's, you know, and not only that, not only that, he has written other books on the Carpenter. It's one of my favorite ones. I have. Right. I have it right here, the illustrated discography, which is such a beautiful book, Randy.

Randy Schmidt:
You should have been a contributor to that, by the way. I know that I think about it. You would have been a great commentator to participate.

Tony Maietta:
I'll be part two. How's that? Okay, I'll do volume two. But you also did Yesterday, Once More, the Carpenter's Reader. And. Okay. Just when you thought it wasn't just. Not just Carpenters. Judy Garland on Judy Garland Interviews and Encounters and Dolly on Dolly.

Tony Maietta:
What? Interviews and Encounters with Dolly Parton. Three of my favorite people. Karen, Judy.

Randy Schmidt:
My Holy Trinity.

Tony Maietta:
It's amazing, right? Really is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Absolutely, absolutely. And if that weren't enough. Okay. One of the reasons I also wanted to have Randy on here was because you created a phenomenal documentary on Karen Carpenter called Starving for Perfection. I just watched it again last night. I think for the fourth time. I own it.

Tony Maietta:
It is, I think it is one of the most incredible documentaries I've ever seen on someone that we think we know so well. Everybody thinks because the Carpenters have been such a fabric, have part of the fabric of our lives, we. It seems like we know them. But there were so many amazing things about your documentary on Karen. It's called Starving for Perfection and it is actually available now on Amazon. So, people, you can absolutely watch this incredible documentary. Not only is it. Randy, and I swear I'm going to let you talk in a minute.

Tony Maietta:
Not only is it just a clear eyed, honest portrait of this woman, but it's beautifully filmed. It's a. It's a beautiful, beautiful film and features, features things that have never been heard before. Right there. There are interviews and audio tapes of Karen that no one ever heard before until your documentary. Is that right?

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah. Some of these things were. Were things that I sought from, from interviewers, radio DJs and things like that that I had heard snippets of over the years. And then I reached out and, and found the full, you know, unedited interviews.

Tony Maietta:
God, they're, they're, they're amazing. They give such insight into, into the woman, into her art, into her music. It's just incredible. So I'm so excited to have you on here. I'm going to put Links to all these things in the show notes people. So you can check out the documentaries, the fabulous book Little Girl Blue, also available on Audible, which as people who listen to this podcast know, is my favorite way to read is on Audible. You've also done some, you've done some Oz documentaries too, which I. Fascinating.

Tony Maietta:
Can you tell us a little bit about the Oz documentaries you did?

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, the same production company that I worked with on the Karen documentary, they were kind of like, what are your other interests? And I kept kind of pestering them about Oz and then I think they finally took me seriously like, oh, you're as big into Oz, or at least were as a kid as you are carpenters. And so we went off in that direction for a documentary series, three part series called Mysteries of Oz. And it was actually on Amazon prime for a while as well, but wasn't getting into the algorithm in the same way that the Karen documentary was. And so people weren't really finding it unless they were going to search for it. And even then it was difficult. So it has been re released and is available on YouTube at this point.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, that's great.

Randy Schmidt:
But it's a three part series. The subtitle is 85 Questions Answered for the 85th Anniversary of the 1939 Film. Of course.

Tony Maietta:
That's fantastic that we did. One of our earliest episodes was Myths. What was it? Munchkin's Myths and Madness of the wizard of Oz. And we addressed a bunch of myths about like the, the Munchkin that hung himself. And I was like, what the hell would. Why would a Munchkin hang themselves on the set? I mean, stupid, stupid stuff.

Randy Schmidt:
And they would leave it in the final print of the film and they'd.

Tony Maietta:
Leave it in the final film. Let's just leave it in there. Nobody's going to see it. It's nuts. But anyway, Oz aside, we are here to talk about Ms. Carpenter, the Karen Carpenter story and your fabulous documentary. So I just want to say off the top, it's going to be really hard for me not to sing in this episode because I have been listening to so much over the past few days to get in the spot. Not that I don't listen to it anyway.

Tony Maietta:
Not that I'm not constantly, you know. Spotify playlist. We will have the songs that we talk about in the podcast that we will have on our Going Hollywood Spotify playlist, people. So just so you don't have to worry about I'm not going to sing. We want people to listen. So that's fine. But because of these songs, as I said, like many people, for me who grew up in the 70s and a little bit in the 80s, I mean, close to you, We've Only Just Begun, Top of the World, they're all part of my childhood. And I think probably you have the same connection.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Randy Schmidt:
I was just a tiny bit behind you. Not much, but I was born right at the same time as the release of the Horizon album.

Tony Maietta:
That's one of my favorites.

Randy Schmidt:
And so I missed a lot of it firsthand. And so, you know, talking about the Karen Carpenter story movie is really important to me because that really was my main introduction. You know, I had. I had little bits of the songs in my head and, you know, memories of certain songs like Top of the World. But at the same time, my. My parents listened to so much country music. I think I knew the Lynn Anderson cover of that more than I did the original Carpenter's version.

Tony Maietta:
Did they play Sweet, Sweet Smile? Isn't that. Wasn't that one.

Randy Schmidt:
I don't. I don't think they played Sweet Sweet Smile. I don't know that that ever did quite the same on the country radio charts.

Tony Maietta:
Well, you know, it's funny because. Yeah, like I said, the big ones, We've Only Just Begun. Close to you, of course, the theme from Lovers and Other Strangers. For all we know.

Randy Schmidt:
For all we know.

Tony Maietta:
Always heard. But. But for me, too, it wasn't. It was the Karen Carpenter story that really ignited my. My interest in the Carpenters, because I. As you say in your book, and you do, too, I remember it. I remember January 1, 1989, like it was, well, day before yesterday, but I remember very well when it was on. And it was.

Tony Maietta:
I wasn't the only one watching it. You weren't the only one watching it. Highest rated movie of the year, right. And Wasn't it the third highest rated program, network movie of the 80s? Is that right?

Randy Schmidt:
You've probably looked it up. But I would say very, very possible. Very possible. You know, Cynthia Gibb tells the story about how she went and basically hid out at her grandparents farm in Vermont because she didn't even want to face. She was so embarrassed of the wigs and afraid of her lip syncing and different things like that, that she just wanted it to kind of go away. And then she found out that the numbers, she said, you know, they were like super bowl numbers as far as the amount of households that were watching the film.

Tony Maietta:
It was such an event. It was such an event. So what was it about the Karen Carpenter story that spurred you into this, obviously, this life's work of studying the Carpenters and the work of Karen and the art of Karen Carpenter.

Randy Schmidt:
I mean, from the opening strains of Rainy Days of Mondays and just seeing it, I mean, it was obviously meant to poke at our emotions there with the opening, with her death and, you know, then young Karen roller skating around, dying Karen. I mean, it's the most dramatic opening you can even imagine. But by the end of that, I was already hooked. I wanted to know more about, you know, not only this incredible voice that just connected with me on some level I still can't even explain, but also the story unfolding there before my eyes in such a, you know, dramatic way was. Was really intriguing. And there's kind of a backstory, if you don't mind me telling you, as to why I watched it in the.

Tony Maietta:
First place, that, that. That's why you're here. Randy, I want to talk to you. People hear me all the time. I wanted to.

Randy Schmidt:
So this is the insider scoop, please. Yeah, the insider scoop is that I was probably like, this was a couple of years before the Karen Carpenter story, but I was on summer break from school and staying a lot with my grandma over the summer. And, you know, as grandmas do, they watch their stories or their programs or whatever, which is the soap operas. And so I became a huge fan of the Bold and the Beautiful right around the time that it. That it launched, I think 1987. And I, as, as all little gay boys growing up in Western Oklahoma would do, had a crush on one of the girls on. On the Bold and the Beautiful. And I sent her fan mail because not only did my grandma watch these shows, she had all the soap opera digests and all those magazines, the tie ins.

Randy Schmidt:
And so I wrote to 7800 Beverly Boulevard, CBS, I remember it well, sent my fan mail to this girl, Carrie Mitchum, who is an actress that is the granddaughter of Robert Mitchum, and she played the original Donna Logan on. On the movie or on the movie. On the soap opera.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Randy Schmidt:
And so she sent me the. The traditional response, I think, at that time, which was, you know, an 8 by 10 glossy sign. And she probably thought she was done with. With this kid at that point, but then I wrote back to her and it struck up this pen pal relations. I love the relationship. And, you know, for me, I. I just thought it was the coolest thing in the world that this movie star, this TV star, was giving me this attention. And I would send her things for her birthday, like a little necklace, and she would Wear it on the show and things like that.

Randy Schmidt:
So I was crazy about Carrie at that time. And at one point she said, send me your number so we can talk sometime. And I remember my parents being like, what? She's calling you?

Tony Maietta:
A soap star calling you in Oklahoma? That's amazing.

Randy Schmidt:
Very first phone call.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
She said, well, I just got my first part in a TV movie. I'm going to be playing Richard Carpenter's girlfriend in a movie about Karen Carpenter. And I'll never forget, she said, you know, the singer who killed herself. And I thought, oh, wow, that's. That's kind of, you know, after. Especially after I found out, you know, the real story. Like, what an unusual way to describe that, you know, because. Yeah, I mean, it could obviously be taken that way, but that was the way it was kind of described to me at first.

Randy Schmidt:
So by the time I was really just watching this TV movie to see this pen pal of mine that I was so crazy about. But by the time she came out in the story, you know, more than halfway through, I think I was already hooked on Karen and kind of forgetting that I was watching this for that reason. I was already, you know, head over heels for. For Karen Carpenter. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
I think I'm trying to. I think, like, for most people, I think the hook. It was the music. It was the music and the music in. In line with the story. I mean, you talked. You just talked about Cynthia Gibb, who plays Karen Carpenter. I just want to say that I think she.

Tony Maietta:
She's wonderful in this. In this film. She really is wonderful. Yes. The wigs are distracting. Not her fault. You know what I mean? That's the production values of it. She gives.

Randy Schmidt:
The lack of budget.

Tony Maietta:
Lack of budget. She gives such a wonderfully. For as young as she was. And I mean, she wasn't new. She had done Fame, right. And this is the amazing thing about Cynthia Gibb was so hot in the early 90s. She did Gypsy, for God's sake, with Bette Midler.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, incredible. And she was in that Dabney Coleman sitcom. What was it? Mad Men of the People or something? I mean, she was hot, hot, hot. And to go from playing Karen Carpenter to Gypsy Rose Lee is. You know what? I'm not gonna snee that resume. But she gives such a nuanced, subtle performance when she could have really gone over the top. And I don't find that at all with her in that movie. I find her so real and touching.

Tony Maietta:
Is Karen so likable, so like the.

Randy Schmidt:
Perfect kid sister, you know?

Tony Maietta:
The perfect kid sister. The perfect kid sister. And I think she's. I think her lip syncing is great. Listen, it's hard for anybody to lip sync to Karen Carpenter. I mean, come on, let's. Let's face it, who wants to do that? I mean, I think she's wonderful, you know, and I know she's a friend of yours. I know that she's also appears.

Tony Maietta:
She appears in Randy's documentary Starving for Perfection. And, you know, I think the standard operating line about it is, and I want you to talk about this, is that despite the fact that the Carpenter family started this whole thing, began it, it really got compromised and watered down. And so can you tell us a little bit about the origin of the film and how it started and the progress of what happened with that whole watering down or compromising?

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, you know, it all kind of goes back to Jerry Weintraub and he was, of course, the Carpenter's manager in the late 70s and responsible for their, you know, return or I guess debuts kind of on television with their, their TV specials in the late 1970s. And he was encouraging Richard Carpenter to, to make this movie shortly after Karen's death because he was saying, you know, if. If we don't make it and tell the story as we want it told, somebody else is going to make it. And then more proof of that came, of course, with Todd Haynes and the infamous Barbie doll movie superstar, the Karen Carpenter story. Yeah, so I think they were, they were acting in a hurried fashion so that they would hopefully ward off any others who might be, you know, going for a network television movie or a feature film or whatever. Although that would be quite difficult without Richard's participation and, you know, blessing. And so, yeah, I think that ended up leading to the kind of a falling out years later between, between Jerry Weintraub and Richard Carpenter, because I think Richard felt like, you know, Jerry had kind of sold his soul to the devil in that way by getting this deal and, you know, not having so much control over it. There was.

Randy Schmidt:
There were constant battles back and forth because, you know, Richard had a certain story he wanted to tell. And it was obvious to those, everybody else telling the story what the story was. I mean, they had Barry Morrow, who was the screenwriter, and he was getting the story from those who were willing to share with him. And the family was very close, you know, very tight lipped about everything. Yeah, he sat with the Carpenter parents for an afternoon and he said, you know, it was just amazing that they didn't really have much to say. That they didn't have many memories to share about their daughter. And a lot of his information for the. For this script ended up coming from Karen's best friend, a woman by the name of Frienda.

Tony Maietta:
Who.

Randy Schmidt:
Frienda Franklin was one of the Carpenter's managers wives, and they had, you know, become close friends early in the 70s, and was really. She was really Karen's closest friend and confidante. And she, as she told me when I interviewed her for my book, she said, there aren't very many times that I like to go to Carpenterland. She said, it's too painful.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
And luckily for me, she finally came around shortly before my book came out and went to Carpenterland long enough to share with me. But one of the other times was whenever she spoke with Barry and they became, you know, really, really close. She wanted Karen's story to be told the way that, you know, she remembered her friend. And then I think Richard was upset because it was all these stories that sort of went against what. How he wanted his family portrayed.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Randy Schmidt:
And so there was this back and forth and, you know, Richard wanted another rewrite and another rewrite, and it got down to where I think they were. Maybe they were going for the fifth or something version of this. And Barry Morrow said, you know, listen, I'm done. Like, I. I've done all I can do. I've told the story that. That I've been hired to tell. And he was also working on Rain man at the time.

Randy Schmidt:
So he was.

Tony Maietta:
I was going to say, then he. He went off and said, I'm done with you. I'm gonna go write Rain man and win an Oscar. So not too shabby there for Barry? Not at all, no. That's amazing. That's amazing.

Randy Schmidt:
Yes. But CBS then brought in a woman by the name of Cynthia Scherbach that sort of tidied it up in a way that I guess Richard was somewhat okay with. But, you know, it's interesting because we hear about how watered down it was and everything, but in the end, I think it still tells the story. I mean, there are obviously gaps, and there are things that are glossed over here and there, but it still tells the story. And I think people who watch it understand what really happened there in a lot of ways. I mean, it's. It's really kind of obvious, even.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, it's. It gives us the bullet points. You know what I mean? And. Hello? What. What? Two hour? Not even two hours. It's not two hours. It's a TV movie. Biopics are so tricky.

Tony Maietta:
You know what I mean? It's impossible to tell an entire life story, even a 32 year story.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Because Karen died at 32 in two hours with commercials. I mean, it's impossible. We get the bullet points. But I think this is what's amazing to me, the genius thing, because I know there were a lot of problems, wasn't the real sticking point. I'll just say it wasn't Agnes. Isn't Agnes Carpenter the real sticking point? Where. What did she say to Barry when they first met? When he came to the house?

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, he came to the house and the housekeeper opened the door and Agnes sort of pushed her aside and said, I want you to know I did not kill my daughter. And that's how she opened the conversation with him about this.

Tony Maietta:
Here's your opening line, right. I mean, I want you to know I didn't kill my daughter. I mean, so you know the darkness that the family was living under from what happened to Karen, the fact that that would be your opening salvo to somebody who's writing your story. So it just indicative of the fact that unfortunately, you know, as it's come out, Agnes is kind of the problem. Wasn't the problem with the screenplay was because Richard was upset, because lesson, lesson Agnes. Lessen Agnes less of a villain. Less of a villain. But the genius thing is, and we've talked about this many times on, on this podcast, what I call padding a character is filmmakers will frequently, in order to get a point across, subtly cast an actor or an actress who comes to the table with a Persona.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, so like you want to cast Breakfast at Tiffany's, but you really can't say she's a sex worker. So you cast a woman who just played a nun. So you want to get the point across of Agnes Carpenter without saying Agnes Carpenter without painting any portrait of a villain. You cast the woman who won an Oscar playing Nurse Ratched and One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest and everything Louise Fletcher says, she says hello. It's threatening and passive aggressive and I mean, it was a genius casting point. It really, really was. I'm blown away by that.

Randy Schmidt:
They definitely knew what they were doing there.

Tony Maietta:
Hadn't she just done Flowers in the Attic too? I think so.

Randy Schmidt:
I believe so, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, it's like absolutely, it's. So that's what they do. You're getting the point across without coming out and saying it. And there's so many incredible scenes in that, in that film that as you just said, even though people say watered down, people Say, compromise. You get the point. You know, you get the point. The painful scene in the therapist's office, which I think probably sticks with everybody. You want to tell people a little bit about that, about that scene? Yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
And I learned years later that one of Karen's friends, Karen Ramone, the wife of producer Phil Ramone, Karen was actually. Karen Ramon was actually there in the meeting with them because she went to a lot of Karen's meetings with her and the therapist. I'm not sure why, but she was kind of just there for a lot of that. And Karen was living with them during some of that time. But she recounted that scene almost verbatim as to what happened there. The therapist said, you know, Karen, it may not be, you know, the way that your family does things, but Karen needs to be told at times that she's loved. She needs to be not just shown, but she needs to be told. She wants, you know, a demonstrative kind of love that is maybe out of the ordinary for the way that you were brought up, but this is what she needs.

Randy Schmidt:
And Agnes is said to have said something like, you know, we're from the north. We don't do things that way. And so, yeah, they tried to just get her to say, I love you. And, you know, the. As. I don't know if it's exactly this in the movie, but. But Karen Ramon, who was there, said that the therapist kind of tapped Agnes's shoe with his own foot. Like, go ahead, go ahead.

Randy Schmidt:
Like, this is what we've been talking about, you can do it kind of thing. And that she couldn't do it. She. As Louise Fletcher says, you know, for heaven's sakes, we came 3,000 miles for this nonsense.

Tony Maietta:
It's just so heartbreaking. And Cynthia Gibbs face after she says that, the shame, the disappointment. See, that's why she's. It's a beautiful performance to bring people up to speed here at this point in the story. Karen has been dealing with her eating disorder, anorexia, for a number of years. I mean, this is probably what this is near the end, right? This isn't this like 70, 78, 79, 80. Around there.

Randy Schmidt:
Now, this is. This is even further than that. She was with this. This was after she went to New York. So it would have been the first part of 82. So this was within the year of her death.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Within the year of her death. And she's. It seems like she's getting some kind of grasp on this disease which has taken over her life. And she just gets no support at all at this most crucial time in her life. It's devastating. And I think it.

Tony Maietta:
I think the scene displays that beautifully. I think it displays it beautifully for people who don't know. I guess I should say, you know, the story of Karen Carpenter, for if you've been living under a rock, is this incredible voice that this. This girl had without any training at all.

Randy Schmidt:
No training, right, Randy?

Tony Maietta:
None. None. She just opened her mouth. She was. She was. I guess we should give a quick backstory on the Carpenters. She was. She and her brother were musicians, Right.

Tony Maietta:
And Richard was the genius. Richard was the golden child.

Randy Schmidt:
Correct, Exactly.

Tony Maietta:
And Karen just wanted to be wherever Richard was. She just loved her brother so much. And they were very tight family, and they came to California so Richard could pursue his music career because he was. He is a genius musician. He is. Karen just played the drums. She just wanted to play the drums. How did the.

Tony Maietta:
How did the singing happen? How did. How did it just be that she started to vocalize?

Randy Schmidt:
Well, Richard was doing a lot of demos of his. His writing at that time, and most of it was instrumental, but he had kind of, you know, written some stuff with some lyrics and wanted to do things that were more pop oriented because they started out as a jazz trio with. With Karen on drums.

Tony Maietta:
And.

Randy Schmidt:
For different, I guess, engagements and things that they had, they would be asked, you know, can anyone sing this song or can you do this or that? And Karen would sometimes sing things at the request. She liked to sing. She was in choir at school, but she didn't have anything that even resembled the voice that she would grow to have later on, because she would sing in sort of a choral tone, sort of a high and light head voice. And there was a particular. There was a particular song that they were cutting a demo of, and Richard said, you know, how about if we started on this note or whatever? And Karen dropped her voice. This is the kind of the. The tale that they tell now. But she dropped her voice down to that low note, and it entered a chest voice that she was not used to singing in.

Randy Schmidt:
But it just. It clicked. And from then on, that was really her new singing voice in this different range completely than she would have ever used in choral singing.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, I mean, my God, I think the. It's hard to say voice of the century when, you know, you also have Judy Garland and you also have Barbra Streisand and you have a whole slew of wonderful singers. But, you know, I think that. And what's one of the fascinating things about your documentary and which I want to. We'll talk about after we talk about the Karen Carpenter story. But everybody's kind of grasping, not really grasping, but trying to put their mind around exactly how to describe the effect of that voice. Carol Burnett calls it a velvet hammer, which I. Which was a great analogy.

Tony Maietta:
And that voice, the fact that that voice just came out of her so naturally, and they built this entire career on that voice. And then, of course, Karen came, finally came out from behind the drums and, you know, led the group, the Carpenters. So she became the star of the Carpenters. And I think that, you know, you have to give Richard credit because Richard arranged everything. Richard put everything together, made that incredible sound. But it had to be very. In your documentary, people say she didn't. Help me clarify this.

Tony Maietta:
She didn't want to be a star. You know what I mean? She was just having fun playing her drums and singing, right. And then she kind of was thrust into this public spotlight.

Randy Schmidt:
I mean, I think she wanted to be successful, but it wasn't stardom that she necessarily sought. And she was fine just blending in with the group. And, you know, they would. They would at first kind of have trouble of how to stage them or how to film them on television shows and stuff, because when have you had the singer behind the drums in a situation like that, and especially, you know, a female lead singer at the drums was kind of an unusual thing for people to see. And then some people thought it was a gimmick, and it was very much not a gimmick. It was. It was her main instrument, and it was what she loved even more than singing, at least in the beginning.

Tony Maietta:
Was it Carney Wilson who called her a badass on those.

Randy Schmidt:
Oh, Carney said all kinds of things like that. I think she called her.

Tony Maietta:
She was, though. She was incredible on the drums. And then to have this voice just come out of you, it's. It's so by the point in the film that she's seeing the therapist and she's dealing with her anorexia near the end of her life. And then the fact that she's almost there, but she doesn't quite make it. And just to clarify, you said before, obviously, we know that in a way, it is killing yourself, but she didn't. It was not suicide, as we think of suicide. It was definitely not.

Tony Maietta:
It was the anorexia nervosa, the effects of that. And it was also the. The poisoning, the.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, there were all kinds of. She really had kind of a. Oh, gosh, I wouldn't even know how. I'm trying to think how I've described this before. Just kind of a cocktail of things that she was taking and doing at that time. One of the ones that of course is pointed to most is the syrup of IVACAC that she would take to induce vomiting. So things like that, and then taking, you know, things to speed her metabolism, Synthroid, things where she didn't have an issue with thyroid, but she was taking medications for it. She really had become a student of eating disorders and researched what other people with eating disorders were doing.

Randy Schmidt:
And I think by the time she realized that, you know, it was too late. By the time she realized what she had done to her body or was continuing to do and couldn't really stop, it was obviously like an addiction in some ways.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Well, I think. I think someone in the documentary. I think it's. I can't remember who it is. Oh, it probably. Cynthia Gibb said that the emotional. It starts as an emotional affliction and it becomes a physiological.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, that was Cynthia.

Tony Maietta:
It's your body, then it's. It's like. It's like any addiction. It's like a drug addiction. You know, it starts out as one thing, and then your body becomes depend on that and actually fights against you. So it's like when people say, why didn't you just eating? Well, it's not. That's not it. The body, her body is now fighting against everything because of what she's done to it, which is so.

Tony Maietta:
What's so tragic and what's so sad and what causes someone to die at age 32 of a heart attack.

Randy Schmidt:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
You know, one of the fascinating things, I think about the movie, the Karen Carpenter movie, and one of the kind of freaky things is the fact that it was filmed in their house with Harold and Agnes, Right. In the next room while they were filming scenes. Cynthia Gibb wore all of her clothes. Right. Everything Cynthia Gibb wore was what. Yeah, you tell a little bit about what Cynthia gets said about the array of costumes and the sizes.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, she talked about it. She said it was. It was kind of like a. Well, she went through all of the outfits and she said they were almost arranged, like chronologically, and so you could see it change in size. And she said that it went from clothes that were much too large for her to wear to things that she couldn't even squeeze into. And she remembered being sort of left alone with Karen's things. And she said she just felt this energy or this presence of somebody there. And she said you know, she really couldn't explain it, but then the other wardrobe people and stuff came back in and that presence sort of disappeared.

Randy Schmidt:
But she just remembered feeling so close to Karen in that moment, being surrounded by her things. And of course, you know, like you said, filming in the homes and driving the cars and things you would never do even if you had the opportunity to do that today. They would never do that in filmmaking, more than likely.

Tony Maietta:
No, of course not. Of course not. And how does an actress. How does an actor do that? That's not. That's not the process, okay? You're trying to create a character and you've got the real people looming. You can talk to them, but they shouldn't be in the next room. You know, while you're trying to be truthful here. And didn't you even say, and this is really the funniest thing, what about the paramedics who were in the movie? Weren't they the same paramedics who came to.

Randy Schmidt:
Exactly. She said she was talking to them between. Between takes. And that two of the paramedics who were there because they had just called the local paramedic team, or I guess you might say, to come and be there as sort of extras for this. For this shoot. And the two of the guys who were carrying her out were there for the actual event that happened. You know What? This was 87. So four years.

Randy Schmidt:
It was 87. No, it's for beginning of 88. So five years.

Tony Maietta:
It's meta. Meta. At a different level. Like another level of meta. It's. So, yeah, I think that. I think that the. The thing about the.

Tony Maietta:
The film is, as we said, is the fact that it presents the music. It presents the music. It presents a truthful, Be it, you know, shortened version of what happened in this life. And yes, there, you know, that's. That's artistic license is how these films are made. I mean, I can't tell you how I always talk about artistic license, artistic license versus artistic licentiousness. And there are some movies out there which I'm like, nothing in that is true. Nothing in that is true.

Tony Maietta:
How dare you. I'm not going to say what it is, because people know. And then there's other things that try. And I really feel like this film is the latter. This film tried. This film really tries to present a truthful portrait of Karen. And I think in many ways succeeds.

Randy Schmidt:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. In most ways. Yeah. And I think even the people making it right at the time thought, oh, man, I don't think this got the story across in the way we wanted to. And. But it overall, especially looking back, it really. It really did it.

Randy Schmidt:
And as you mentioned, get got the music out there. How many new fans came to the music from this one right here, one.

Tony Maietta:
Host in this podcast, I'll tell you right now.

Randy Schmidt:
Well, I. I had a VHS tape of it that I recorded the night that it aired, and I couldn't find any of the. The albums in stores right away. So I was, you know, I did what we all did as kids and sat down with my tape recorder next to the TV and made my own little soundtrack of those snippets.

Tony Maietta:
So I get it, I get it. I did that, too. I did that with all of my life because I couldn't find all of my life on any Carpenter CDs. So I did that because I made a mixtape. Of course, it was the 80s, people, relax. I made a mixtape of the Carpenters, and I. I had that. I had that little snippet of all of my life on it because that's in the.

Tony Maietta:
In the movie, that's when she discovers her voice. That's when she. She discovers her Karen Carpenter voice, which is amazing. So this film, you. So the film inspired you, obviously. The Little Girl Blue. The Carpenter's books. How did this documentary inspire come into being? Randy Starving for perfection.

Tony Maietta:
Karen Carpenter.

Randy Schmidt:
So there was a friend of a friend, as they say, kind of the same way that the Carpenter's demo tape made it to Herb Alpert. I think that's how they describe it. A friend of a friend.

Tony Maietta:
Good friend.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah. Well, there was a guy I knew who knew of my book, and he told this producer in Dallas, which isn't far from me, I'm just north of Dallas, in Denton, Texas. He said, you know, the Karen Carpenter guru lives up the road in Denton, Texas. You should reach out to him. I know him. And this guy said, oh, really? I read that book when it came out. And so this was probably like 20. What would it be? 2018 or so? And the book had already been out for about eight years.

Randy Schmidt:
And so this guy, Andy Streitfeld, who has AMS pictures in Dallas, reached out and said, hey, I hear that you're the author of this book that I read. Maybe come in and see if we can do something together. So I went in and we were trying to come up with, you know, different ways to tell Karen's story. And part of me still wishes that I had Dove in solo album first. I think that would be a fun way to dig into Karen's story still.

Tony Maietta:
But we'll definitely talk about the solo album.

Randy Schmidt:
He said, let's, let's do a documentary. And we started working on it. And right about the time we had probably, I don't know, six or eight interviews done, Covid hit and so everything shut down. And a lot of the interviews that we had on tap for that we didn't ever get to do. And you know, we didn't get to return to them, unfortunately. Terry Ellis, one of Karen's boyfriends, is one that I really wanted to get. And yeah, so we had a few people say that they would do it, but because of COVID we had to postpone. But that's how it began and that's the only reason that it took as long as it did to do.

Randy Schmidt:
It didn't come out till 2023, so there was at least four years in there. So that we were kind of off and on working on this.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I mean, but the people that you did get, I'm thinking primarily this had to be Olivia Newton John's last interview.

Randy Schmidt:
It was close to. It was definitely the last time she spoke about Karen unless she was asked in some other interview. But she had just a few interviews after that.

Tony Maietta:
What a wonderful, wonderful thing to have her. I mean, what a wonderful thing to have her in your documentary. When I saw that, I was like, oh my God. And Suzanne Somers, one of her last, I'm sure too. I mean, you know, Olivia we knew had been battling cancer and in remission and her health was precarious. But Suzanne Somers death I think was shocking to a lot of people. But you had her in your documentary too, which is very exciting because I don't think people think of Suzanne Somers when they think of Karen Carpenter, you know what I mean? It's such an interesting take. And she was.

Tony Maietta:
I loved Suzanne Somers in your documentary. I thought she was so clear eyed about some things and so wonderful. And she was so astute about so much of what she said. When they appeared together in the. What was that was a Star wars type special?

Randy Schmidt:
It was, yeah, Space Encounters special.

Tony Maietta:
But hello, you also had the lady herself. I mean, what was it like? Were you with Carol Burnett when you talked to her? Was. Did you sit down?

Randy Schmidt:
I wish I was. So that. That happened in a kind of a strange way. AMS was also working on a. An I Love Lucy documentary for the Reels network.

Tony Maietta:
Of course they were.

Randy Schmidt:
And so that was where they got the, the budget and everything to, to get Carol because Carol comes with, you know, of Course.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
Glam package and all of those things that you have to, you know, be able to guarantee when you interview someone like that.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
And so they were interviewing her for the. For the Lucille Ball reels thing, and I sent along five or six questions that they were able to tag on at the end. So unfortunately, I didn't get to sit across from her. I wish. But yeah, they were able to at least ask those questions. And I thought for such a short amount of time that they got her to talk about Karen. She really got into it and, like, there's some beautiful emotional moments and things that she was able to, you know, tap into there.

Tony Maietta:
Very beautiful. Those. Those harmonies, when they show the clip from the Carol Burnett show where they're singing. Do you know the way the Burke.

Randy Schmidt:
Well, she had no prompting.

Tony Maietta:
She gets. She gets emotional.

Randy Schmidt:
She had no prompt. I didn't show her anything from it. This was all total recall from.

Tony Maietta:
From.

Randy Schmidt:
And she was, you know, singing in the right key, I think.

Tony Maietta:
Amazing. Amazing. Well, she's. I mean, she's Carol Burnett after all. You know, one of the saddest things I, I always. I actually worked on the carbon at 50th was on 2017. So I did get to work with Carol, but I was supposed to talk with her on that Lucy show dvd like, years and years ago, and it never worked out, which made me so sad because I thought, God, be amazing to sit next to sit down with Carol Burnett. But to have her in your documentary remembering so clearly and being so moved and touched by Karen.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, Karen was in her 20s singing with Carol Burnett and those harmonies.

Randy Schmidt:
21, 22. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
I cannot sing harmony to save my life. I can't sing harmony and I can barely sing melody. And it's. I mean, to be able to do that at 20. Carol Burnett on a live show. I mean, a live show in front of an audience. Astounding. Astounding.

Tony Maietta:
But you also, as I also, as I said, you also had. No, I didn't say. But you did have Kristin Chenoweth on, too. That was amazing as well. And she had such. You didn't. You don't necessarily think of Christian Chenoweth again with Karen Carpenter, you know.

Randy Schmidt:
Well, that was the same. That was the thing. I wanted to bring a blend of people who both knew and worked with Karen personally, but also those who were inspired by her. And so that's how we got, you know, the Carney Wilson and Belinda Carlisle.

Tony Maietta:
Another one.

Randy Schmidt:
And Kristin Chenoweth, because I really started digging for who are the people that have credited Karen Carpenter as being an inspiration. Who are the people who have listened to her growing up? And so Belinda Carlisle is telling the story about singing close to you into her hairbrush when she was a teenager. And these are things you just would never imagine. And then, of course, with. With Kristen, you know, talking about singing in the same key she. She broke into Yesterday once more when I was young, and she was in the exact key. This is not someone who sings low either.

Tony Maietta:
No, it's not. No, it's not. Bobbles, Bangles. I mean, my God. Kismet or not kismet. Yeah, kismet. Anyway, Never mind. Go ahead.

Randy Schmidt:
No, she was. She was exactly on pitch, and it was so cool because we could do that crossover with, you know, her singing with Karen. And I never would have thought if she just picked a note out of the air that it would end up being the same key that Karen sang it in, which was kind of cool.

Tony Maietta:
That's amazing. It's amazing. And I loved Cherry Boone.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Tell the people a little bit about what Cherry Boone talked about in the documentary.

Randy Schmidt:
So, you know, Cherry Boone was the daughter of Pat Boone and was one of the first, I guess, celebrity types that might have come come forward with their battle with anorexia. She wrote a book in the late 70s, maybe early 80s, and Karen heard about this, heard that the book was in progress, and reached out to Cherry. And I know because Karen was not admitting that she herself had anorexia to anyone, even her closest friends. It was like late 81, right before she went to New York, before she even spoke the words to her circle of girlfriends. And. But she reached out to Cherry saying, hey, you know, I've heard that you have been battling the same thing, basically. And so Cherry says that she sent her a. Like, an early copied manuscript of her book.

Randy Schmidt:
And so, yeah, she. She encouraged her several times, almost always in phone calls, I think. I don't know the. That they met in person. They had met in person before, but not after this book situation.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Randy Schmidt:
But, yeah, Cherry kept encouraging her to get away from everything and focus only on that. And instead, Karen went for, you know, the Hollywood version of a therapist. You know, this guy, Stephen Levincron, had written a book called the Best Little Girl in the World, which had become a TV movie.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Randy Schmidt:
And Karen thought, well, you know, if he's, you know, kind of this. The famous guy, that's who I'm gonna go to. Cherry was saying, like, you need to remove yourself from la. Remove yourself from New York. Remove yourself from that that pace. And unfortunately, Karen did not take her advice in that way because she wanted a quick fix. I think she just thought if she went through the motions that she'd be able to say, look, I did it. I addressed it.

Randy Schmidt:
Let's move on. And I don't know that she ever felt fully committed in the way that she would have had to.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yeah, your recovery has to be paramount. I mean, that's. That's just. That's just what has to be in order to. I mean, this disease is. Is cunning and sly and, you know, is in control, basically. And I think that, you know, what amazes me about it is. Is, though, also the time.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, nobody knew about anorexia at this time. You know, it was not like Karen, unfortunately. You know, it's kind of sad that Karen Carpenter became the face of anorexia nervosa and brought it into the public consciousness. So thank God for that. It's unfortunate that that has to be the story. But anorexia isn't like it is today, I think, about girls I was in high school with who. Who got treatment, and nobody said the word anorexia. Nobody said that, you know, they have problems eating or they're.

Tony Maietta:
They're not. You know, it wasn't. That's one of the sad results of the Karen Carpenter story is the fact that we now are very aware, the sad, good results, I guess, that we are now very aware what anorexia neurosa is and what a dead. And how it can be a deadly, deadly disease. And she, you know, nobody knew in the 70s. So I think it's amazing that she had that conversation with Terry Boone. And you got to talk to Jerry on your. In your documentary about it, too.

Tony Maietta:
Very moving. I knew nothing about that. I was. That was. That was amazing. That was amazing to me. What I love about your documentary, too, are the sound bites, the interviews that have never been heard before. Can you tell people a little bit about that? I mean, you get Karen in her.

Tony Maietta:
Literally, in her own words, speaking about things.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, I think that one of the best sources that we had for this was a couple of interviews. One main studio interview that a guy by the name of Charlie Tuna, the not. Not the Tuna rep. Not. Not the. Not the fish on the tuna can. But his name was Charlie, right?

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
So, yeah, Charlie Tuna.

Tony Maietta:
Sorry, Charlie. Sorry, Charlie. Sorry, Charlie.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, Charlie Tuna, the radio dj. I had reached out to him back when I was working on my book, hoping that there was, you know, the full interview, because I had heard clips that he did. And he had put them on the radio shortly after Karen's death, just as kind of a tribute to her. But it was like 30 seconds here and, you know, 15 seconds of this and that. And my hope was that the whole thing existed. And he almost immediately sent me the full, like 60 minute or so interview tape back then. And I transcribed it and used, you know, pieces of it here and there in my book. And then whenever my book came out, he had me on his show, on a radio show he was doing for, for K Earth at the time.

Randy Schmidt:
And so we talked a little bit about Karen. It was interesting though, they couldn't play any of her music. They couldn't. They could only play what was already pre programmed. And he said, that's the changes in, in radio in all these years. I can't play her, but we can talk about her.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Randy Schmidt:
So anyway, he, he had given me that and shortly after I was on his, his program, he passed away in, you know, the next couple of years after that. So I reached back out to his sons and asked, you know, permission for us to use it in this documentary. And they were both, you know, very welcoming of that idea. And so a lot of that comes from the interview that they sat down and did together in 1976. There's also some radio interviews that he did with her. He would call her every year on her birthday.

Tony Maietta:
Is he the one who woke her up? Is he the one who calls her and wakes me up?

Randy Schmidt:
That's the one where we use that part where he wakes her up and then ask.

Tony Maietta:
You get just a clip of what these people had to go. She. He wakes her up. You know, I'd be like, call later, dude, what's going on? But this was their life. This is what she went through. Waking her up to talk about what she thinks love is. What.

Randy Schmidt:
What's the meaning of love?

Tony Maietta:
What's the meaning of love? Hi. Can I have a cup of coffee first? Can I have a sip of my coffee before I answer? The meaning of life, please?

Randy Schmidt:
Exactly. I think it definitely shows what she was going through.

Tony Maietta:
Incredible.

Randy Schmidt:
But yeah, that was one. Or he actually had, you know, those through the years, telephone interviews that he would do when he would just call her up and you'd hear the doorbell ringing in the background. And there was another one, a guy by the name of Gary Thoreau, who did this, this interview of both Karen and Richard shortly after the release of the. The Christmas album in 78. And it was all transcribed and printed. And I just kind of went out on a Limb and reached out to this guy and said, is there any chance you recorded it or that. I was sure he did, just because of the way it was transcribed in that. It was kind of, you know, one of those magazines you'd pick up on the street corner for.

Randy Schmidt:
For free. I can't remember what it was.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah, yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
And he said, yeah, absolutely. And he sent me, in that case again, over an hour or so of interview that he did with Karen and Richard in their office there on the lot at A and M Records. So that was another really good one. We were able to mix all of those, you know, bits and pieces from all of those to create this.

Tony Maietta:
It's. It's so wonderful to hear it and to hear this in her words. You know, as much as I love the Karen Carpenter story, this is a production, this is a film, but this is the real thing. And what I also love about what you do in the documentary is you see the progression, unfortunately, you see the progression of this disease and how it eventually took its toll on her. And I think about the time of, Like, I always think she looked great about the time of Horizon, which I think was once 75.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah. Gorgeous.

Tony Maietta:
She looked fantastic. And people always said, if you just could have stopped, but you can't. It's disease, you know, you just can't stop. That's the thing. That's this insidiousness of this. This disease. And you see her up all up into that sad, sad British interview, you know, where the. The interviewer kind of.

Tony Maietta:
Sabotage. Not sabotages. Yeah, sabotage is not sabotage.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah. In a way.

Tony Maietta:
In a way. Pounces on her. It's. It's. It's assaults her. I don't know. I can't think of the word right now.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
But about her weight loss. And you just see in her eyes, like, what. You know what I mean? It's like she's assaulted by these words. When this British interviewer asks her, you tell the people, I can't get. I can't. You know, what does she say to her?

Randy Schmidt:
I think she said something like six stone in weight. And then Karen says, I don't know what six stone in weight even means.

Tony Maietta:
And then she translates like, 80 pounds.

Randy Schmidt:
And she says, no, no, of course not.

Tony Maietta:
But she ambush.

Randy Schmidt:
She definitely did. I don't think expected to be confronted in that way.

Tony Maietta:
No. And she ambushes her. That's the word I was trying to think of. This British interviewer ambushes Karen about her. About her weight and just the look in her eye, like, what are you what we're here to talk about, Made in America. We're not here to talk about, you know, my weight and the fact that she accuses her of being about £80 at one point. And Karen's like adamant in denial. And then you say later in your documentary, later, she was down to 78 pounds or something like that.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
When she first went into treatment. 78, 77 pounds.

Tony Maietta:
God, it's just, it's horrifying. It's just, it's, it's, it's horrifying. It's horrifying. Yeah. The documentary is so, as I said, it's so clear eyed. It's so balanced and so. And so beautiful at the same time. And I love, as I said, when people are trying to put their minds around.

Tony Maietta:
How to describe this voice?

Randy Schmidt:
Voice.

Tony Maietta:
Carol Burnett, the Velvet Hammer. Olivia Newton John said she was an old soul. Because you're like, how does this 20 year old have this pain, this depth of pain and knowledge of life? And her voice.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah. And the ability to convey it in such a conversational way.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, so there had to be, I don't know, maybe she was an old soul. Maybe Livia's right, you know, she was a reincarnation. Who knows? Or maybe it's the, you know, the past of her childhood or what she went through in her childhood. But that voice, we gotta talk about that voice. You know, I have certain soft spots for certain songs. I gotta ask you, as the Carpenter maven, what did the guy call you? Not the Carpenter maven, the guru. Guru. Do you have a favorite song? Do you have a favorite child? Randy?

Randy Schmidt:
My favorite single is Superstar.

Tony Maietta:
Mine too. Mine too.

Randy Schmidt:
I mean, if there's a song I'm gonna try to win somebody over to the Carpenters with, that would be it. Because it's got like a hard edge to it, but it's kind of like the velvet hammer that, you know, Carol Burnett talks about.

Tony Maietta:
Don't you remember? You told me you loved me, babe. Don't you remember that? Oh, my God. I think every performance of Super. I love Bette Midler's too. Bette Midler's version is gut wrenching, you know, but Karen's, it's so mournful and soulful and. Oh, God, yeah. God, yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah, so that's, that's my favorite. I. I also love, like from, I guess some of the album tracks, like Road Ode comes to mind. That's the thing. And of course, a song for you. I still can't believe they didn't do an edited version to like a shortened version and release that.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
Because, you know, Richard will talk about. It was too long. Same thing with this masquerade. You know, these things could have been slightly edited for radio.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Randy Schmidt:
If they had to keep it under the whatever magic four minute mark or whatever. Three minutes.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I tell you, I love. I have a very special place in my heart for calling occupants of interplanetary craft. I love it. I. I put it on and it makes me happy. I find it so cool. I love that album.

Tony Maietta:
I love Passage. I love two sides, too. When she says that they just caught a flight. Goodbye. The two sides, it's. It's such a wonderful little flip at the end. Goodbye. And I love those good old dreams from Made in America.

Tony Maietta:
It's like a top of the world song to me. It's bouncy and fun and I get that. But I think probably the most gut wrenching, other than this solo album, which we're going to talk about, and Karen said this too, in your documentary, is I need to be in love.

Randy Schmidt:
I need to be in love. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
The hardest thing I've ever done is keep believing there's someone in this crazy world for me. Oh, my God. It's her life story.

Randy Schmidt:
There was so much pressure on her, too, to, you know, get married and have a family where she's only 26 years old. And at the time she recorded that and she was, like, worried that her life was over.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. 26. Crazy. Crazy.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah. Such a. Such a huge pressure to put on somebody. But I think she thought she had to be, you know, had to have that to.

Tony Maietta:
Be perfect, maybe.

Randy Schmidt:
Yeah. Well, yeah, the idea of perfection. And also I. I think she was seeking the love that maybe the family wasn't showing. Seeking that from. From somebody else.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. And there's a perfection line in that song, too. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's a gut wrenching song, but I think the biggest gut wrenching thing of all is the solo album. So I just want to. I just want to briefly touch on that in our last few minutes, because make believe it's your first time.

Randy Schmidt:
I.

Tony Maietta:
If I ever want to turn somebody on to the Carpenters, I mean. Yes. The usual Suspect. Superstar. Rainy days and Mondays. Yes. Make believe it's your first time from the solo album, not the one that Richard later did from the solo album. She sings the way it ought to be.

Tony Maietta:
And the B. The E sound, which is a closed sound. I mean, I'm not a singer, and I know that is so gorgeous. It's so resonant. It's just your heart explodes when she sings that song. Do you. Do you like that song? I should ask you.

Randy Schmidt:
I. I do. I love it. I love the simplicity of it. I mean, it's just basically her and piano and some other instruments sneak in underneath.

Tony Maietta:
But it's so sad that that album. You wonder and you. You posit this. Is that the right word? You posit this. You pose this question in your. In your documentary. I wonder how her life would have turned out had that album not been rejected, ridiculously rejected by A and M and by Richard.

Randy Schmidt:
Well, yeah, I always think about. I think she could have taken rejection from the public or record buyers, either liking it or not, you know, that kind of thing, more than she could. The people that she loved and trusted the most to make her think that it wasn't even worthy of release.

Tony Maietta:
It just boggles your mind. It boggles your mind that they would say, this beautiful album, My body keeps changing my mind. I. It's one of my favorite disco songs ever. It's so much fun. How could they possibly think that this was unreleasable?

Randy Schmidt:
It's Karen Carpenter, and they acted like they were protecting her by doing it like that.

Tony Maietta:
Right. I mean, it really, you know, it makes you wonder. It makes you wonder a lot of things. You do a lot of what ifs. How would her life have been different had they not done that? How would her career have been different? Would we have got Made in America? Would we have. We've got a lot more Carpenter's albums instead of what we keep getting now, which is Richard reissuing the Carpenters in different forms. I love the Philharmonic album, I think, but you just got to wonder what that last little, like, stomach punch did to that woman to say, no.

Randy Schmidt:
I think it was Frienda who mentioned to me, her best friend Frienda said that the Carpenter family had this idea that you could only be one thing. And that if you tried to do anything outside of that, if you tried to veer off and, you know, that you couldn't do more than one thing. So the idea that if she did a solo album, she was saying goodbye to the Carpenters, not that she could come back and record a Carpenter's album occasionally.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Randy Schmidt:
But, I mean, when you look at what. What pop singers today are doing, as far as what they endorse or what they, you know, they go off into a movie or they go to do this or that, there's a million possibilities. But I think at that point in time, it was seen as, you know, oh, if you do this, you're abandoning Richard.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. It's so very sad. I think it's the biggest. One of the biggest tragedies of her life is the fact she wasn't given that vote. In many ways, she wasn't given a vote of confidence, but that is a public. A public slap in the face by your family, by A and M Records. They're all culpable for that.

Randy Schmidt:
Well, and she would have never had the solo album been released. She would have never gotten into the marriage that she got into.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Randy Schmidt:
It was only because of the timing with that and because the album was shelved and she was just like. I think she was just like, I have no control over anything. Well, now I'm going to try to take control over this, at least now. My love life. Because it was just weeks after the shelving of that album that she got into the relationship with Tom Burris and was quickly married within just a few months.

Tony Maietta:
Wow. Yeah.

Randy Schmidt:
So, yeah, I think that I blame the solo album shelving for that even having the opportunity to happen.

Tony Maietta:
It's just. It's so very sad. It's so very sad. But I don't want to focus on the sad. I want to focus on the incredible legacy that this woman, this bright, brilliant light left us that we still can listen to today and just be moved and touched. And, you know, it's. Yeah, that's what it is. You know, it's funny, we were just talking about.

Tony Maietta:
Not too long ago, we talked about Natalie Wood on the podcast, and I said, you know, the point of Natalie Wood is not her death. The point is her life. That's what we need to focus on. Not what happened when she died, but this incredible body of work she left before that night off Catalina Harbor. And same thing with Karen Carpenter. Let's. I really. I really want to stress.

Tony Maietta:
Let's think about the. The years that we had her from, what, 60. When was ticket to Ride first recording?

Randy Schmidt:
Well, the first recording for A And M was 69.

Tony Maietta:
69 to 80 to 81. 81. And we. But we have other things, too, that she. After she recorded, they were released posthumously. Like, now. Voices of the Heart. Is that what it's called? Voices of the Heart? Yeah, Voice of the Heart, that, you know, Love Lines album.

Tony Maietta:
Love Lines is wonderful. So we have that to focus on. We have that to focus on and. And just be grateful that she was in our life, you know, she really was. Well, wow. Thank you so much, Randy, for joining me today. We could talk and talk and talk about Karen Carpenter and the Carpenters because it's just because you are the guru, you are the man. But I've just enjoyed talking to you so much today, listener.

Tony Maietta:
Please do yourself a favor and watch Randy's tremendous documentary, Starving for Perfection. It's Karen Carpenter, Starving for Perfection.

Randy Schmidt:
That's correct.

Tony Maietta:
It's as I said, clear eyed, non sensational, beautifully presented, beautifully shot, great interview subjects. It's available on Amazon. I'll leave a link in the show notes. And also of course, your fabulous books, particularly Little Girl Blue, as I said, I think is just such a big, wonderful, wonderful book.

Randy Schmidt:
Thank you.

Tony Maietta:
I'll leave a link in the show notes for all of it. So anyway, I just want to say as usual to everybody, thank you for listening, thank you for being here. Brad is coming back. He swear. I talked to him. I talked to him. He is coming back. He'll be back in a couple weeks and we're going to wrap up our second season of the show.

Tony Maietta:
Thank you for being with me. And in the meantime, please don't forget to tell your friends about the podcast. Oh, Randy, I should ask you, I should ask you to tell the people. Where can people find you, contact you if you want to be contacted, Find out more about your fabulous work.

Randy Schmidt:
Well, Instagram, the profile is suntory pop S U n T o R Y P O P. Little carpenter's insider thing there. And I do still have randylschmidt.com that I'm going to be revamping soon, but you can at least drop me a, an email from that site at this point, even though it's not complete.

Tony Maietta:
That's great. That's great. Thank you. Thank you. So of course you can get in touch with us@goinghollywoodpodmail.com Please drop us a line, let us know your thoughts. If you have suggestions for something you want us to talk about, please do, please do. And don't forget what browser was saying. You know, you know, the drill rate, review, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Tony Maietta:
I don't have to tell you that. I don't have to tell you that. I did want to give one final thing, a special shout out to my friend John in Wheeling, West Virginia, because he truly brought the Carpenters to me. He introduced me to your books, Randy. He is a primo Carpenters aficionado. We are out there. We're all out there. So thank you, John.

Tony Maietta:
I guess then that leaves us with only one thing left to say. And Randy, please promise not to cringe when I do this.

Randy Schmidt:
We'll see.

Tony Maietta:
But listeners I want to thank you for staying with me during this interesting period we've gone through. As we've been Brad Less. It's been an interesting journey. I've enjoyed it a lot, talking to people, but mostly you've been there for me, listeners. And I want to thank you for that because I want to say, you know, there's no getting over that rainbow when my smallest of dreams won't come true. I can take all the madness this podcast world has to give, But I won't last a day without you. Oh, God, if they're not going to pull me yet, they're going to pull me for that. Bye, everybody.

Tony Maietta:
That's all, folks.