Dr. Neil's Spiritual Awakening to Non-Duality
NEW EPISODES THE 1st OF EVERY MONTH
You may have heard about spiritual awakening. Do you know someone who is living it? Join us as Dr. Neil Schuitevoerder describes the lived experience of an advanced stage of human consciousness and shares insight for seekers of all traditions. Dr. Neil will speak from the direct experience of Being, Brahman, Sunyata, or Pure Consciousness as he transmits Non-dual Reality to you -- non-dual space/time, non-dual thinking, non-dual love, the non-dual body, and his yogic abilities to travel the cosmos, move through the bardos and, at the same time, live as a psychologist, husband, father, and grandfather. His experience dispels many myths about awakening. He will be interviewed by his partner, Dr. Connie Zweig, author of Meeting the Shadow, Romancing the Shadow, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path, and the award-winning book The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul.
Dr. Neil's Spiritual Awakening to Non-Duality
Debunking Myths of Enlightenment
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Dr. Neil explores incorrect assumptions about awakening based on his lived experience, such as the belief that there is an ultimate state of consciousness, that the ego and shadow are eliminated, that physical health is required, that we can “get” enlightened, and that death interferes with our evolution.
Greetings. We're back with a new podcast, and today we're going to discuss myths of enlightenment, popular misconceptions that people carry around into your yoga class, into your conversations about meditation, maybe even in your shadow, secret assumptions that you're making that you're not even aware of yourself about spiritual awakening and the evolution of consciousness. So today I'm going to ask Dr. Neil about the myths of enlightenment. So the first myth that seems to be a mischaracterization is that there is an ultimate state of consciousness that we land somewhere and we stop evolving. Is this accurate?
SPEAKER_00No, there's no ultimate state of enlightenment. You don't get somewhere and then you're there.
SPEAKER_01Can you say more about that?
SPEAKER_00Well, for example, um first state of non-duality was seeing myself in the objects of visual awareness, and I thought that was the ultimate state. And then later on, I saw myself everywhere. And in other words, I I was able to be anywhere in the cosmos with a sense of sight.
SPEAKER_01Objects near and far.
SPEAKER_00Objects near and far. And I was that object, and that object was me. Um, and I thought that was the ultimate state, and then I found myself moving to a place where uh there was a sense of uh what was well, there was a question in my mind, what was creating that that capacity to be everywhere and be present in every state and identifying myself in that state, and I found that there was an emptiness, a sense of uh non-dual emptiness that was kind of the source, and so it continued, maybe 10 more states after that, and I'm still exploring new states.
SPEAKER_01I think um Almas calls this runaway realization, right? Or endless realization.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he wrote a book on this, uh infinite amounts of potential for realization. Uh, not everybody wants to have multiple realizations. Some people stay focused on what, like the emptiness or the fullness or the capacity of being one with everything. So some people stay focused and deepen it, deepen and deepen it. In other words, they become more and more conscious of that state. But uh ultimately, there is no one state that one can attain.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then let's talk about the myths about this fantasy of an ultimate state of enlightenment. Some of the um traits that I hear people talk about, for example, that there's no ego and no shadow in that level of consciousness.
SPEAKER_00Right, yeah, that's a big myth. So ego is uh is as infinite as any awake state, so one does not get rid of ego, uh, and any attempt to do that is gonna actually inhibit your your growth as in consciousness. Uh the ego transforms itself, so it's it moves from being identified with the body, identified with the personality, identified with the heart, identified with the soul, identified with mind, yeah. Mind of course, and identified with emptiness, uh, identified with uh with the divine. In fact, if you think about the way religion talks about God, God is very egotistical. Most religions has a lot of rules and definitions of where you're supposed to go, and you know, that's a big ego.
SPEAKER_01So what I'm hearing you say is that the ego's identity expands and expands. That's your experience. There are other teachers who describe the ego as receding, getting smaller, and ultimately disappearing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it does do that from the point of view of what it leaves behind. In other words, when one is identified with personality and the heart and the soul, and one then finds emptiness arises, so there's no ego in that emptiness. Uh there's no clear ego in it, there's a source there. But as one grows, so the things that are left behind or one passes through seem like they're like ego. It seems like it's not real anymore. It seems like it's an illusion, it's a concept, it's a creation of the mind. But in truth, it's really continuing to grow, but not on a conscious level.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and what about the shadow?
SPEAKER_00Same thing applies to the shadow. There's nobody without a shadow. Human beings you know have a shadow aspect to them, no matter what their level of consciousness. In uh in Judaism, the greater your level of attainment, or let's call it enlightenment, the greater your shadow. So it's kind of like you can do more harm if you have more uh evolution or more consciousness. Because you have more power, because you have more ability and power to do dark things. Now that that's you know, that's a myth, uh, particularly in uh in eastern philosophies, that you reach a level where you can't do wrong, and many gurus and teachers fall into that hole, you know, and so we're seeing a lot of that these days where gurus, priests, teachers are doing horrendous things: money, manipulation, sexual involvement with students, power plays, and that's because they don't recognize the shadow of the part that's coming out of the unconscious, needs to be addressed infinitely, as well as being awake, being aware.
SPEAKER_01And so there's still unconscious material in enlightenment, and I think we've covered that in the podcast about the chakras and the podcast about meeting the shadow on the spiritual path. But now we're saying that in the context of this myth, that it's possible to attain perfection, which means no wrong action, no wrong words. You would never harm someone, you would never harm an animal or the planet in any way, because all it's all spontaneous right action, which is what I learned in my early meditation life. Then what we're saying is that that's actually not true.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a myth. The myth, there are many myths that are there to encourage students to uh become consciously involved with their own development, and that's the purpose of these myths. Like you will be forever doing the right action and be have a sense of morality, uh, and morality is not the same as enlightenment, it's a separate path. Ken Wilder talks a lot about this that if you can actually be uh awake and yet be totally immoral.
SPEAKER_01Immoral.
SPEAKER_00Immoral, yeah, because you haven't developed morality, and uh there are a lot of examples that we have in our journey together.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so and I remember there was a book that came out called Perfect Health. If only you meditate, your body will become perfect and you'll never get sick.
SPEAKER_00Right. So karma is totally separate to perfect health. Uh, in fact, I'd say that health is inversely related to spiritual development. In other words, you're more likely to get sick uh or suffer and die younger if you're enlightened or awake, you have some of the levels because you're processing karma, and some of the karma is not is not personal. In other words, I have personal karma from this lifetime, from previous lifetimes, from being a part of the planet, being part of the galaxy, and and as you unfold your consciousness, so you're taking on more karma, so you know, you're taking on all human beings karma, and you can't say, No, I'm not gonna be one with that person, but I want I will be one with that person, so it doesn't work that way, you know. You lost your wake, you're connected with everybody, and that includes the shadow side or the suffering side, the dark side. Uh, and what's important is uh not to get lost in thinking that you beyond beyond suffering, beyond illness.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so um again, the myth that I was taught was take care of your nervous system, food and rest, and it will be easier to wake up. And then when you wake up, you actually won't have to die because you know your body will become immortal, like Babaji.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01So, what I'm hearing you say is as you become unified with more and more, as you experience non-duality with a greater and greater number of beings, there's some way in which you're taking on the karma of all of that. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_00You're taking on the karma because you're one with them, you have empathy and compassion. If you're already growing with that aspect, you have identity with all human beings. Uh, so you know, even the ones you hate. So you can hate as well in uh you know, being awake in life, not separate from that. Um you can have negative emotions, certainly negative emotions, and you can be battling certain issues, you're not free from conflict. Um, can you purify your nervous system so that you never end up uh being sick or suffering? Uh, you know, there are many paths, and the path is a way to actually reach a highest level of awaitness. It's not to stay there, and nor is it supposed to be practiced for the whole of your life. It's these are short practices, so they shouldn't be practiced for more than five or six years, because they're largely about denying certain aspects of yourself in order to attain other aspects.
SPEAKER_01So what's an example of that?
SPEAKER_00For example, if one lives in a monastery or cave, one does not need an ego, one does not need to be functioning in the world with all those conflicts and issues, uh, and so it's easier to reject the idea of having an ego. But if one lives in the west and one has spouse and children and household, yeah, community. One identifies with humanity, one needs an ego to think and function on this level. That doesn't mean that it's permanently part of yourself.
SPEAKER_01So the ego is not an enemy.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's kind of a widespread it's a construct, you know, and there are many different levels of what we call ego. You know, a lot of people think of ego as any sense of self-identity, but there are there are identities for the personality, identity for the heart, identity for the soul, identity for the galaxy or the planet, identity with all life. So there are many identities, and these are all different aspects of self.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so let's move to some myths about death and awakening.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, death is one of the biggest myths that there is. Because I I remember my past lifetime that I wanted before this, and the one before that. And there was no death, there was transformation into astral, mental, Buddhist Rathic planes, a celestial plane, and some even higher planes, and and I came back again. Uh came back into a body, and there was a definite process of moving from celestial planes for and adding sheaths, bodies to myself so that I can become functional in the physical world.
SPEAKER_01But the myth, I think, is that we only have one lifetime to wake up, and then we're either going to go to heaven or hell.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's a big myth.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Because you it will keep evolving no matter what. That's my experience, and that's not an idea or a thought or a concept, it's my experience of my own journey through different lifetimes.
SPEAKER_01And what about the practices, the intention to have a conscious death? Because that's very widespread in the spiritual world.
SPEAKER_00Right. I think the purpose of that is the same as meditating. In other words, it's uh it's good to practice the soul journey through lifetimes, it's good to practice that. So it's good to be awake because it's a certain level that people can aspire to. And at death, one becomes a can become a soul, can become uh that level. So, however, that doesn't mean that you're gonna disappear or you're gonna be enlightened. Um, that just means you're gonna attain a certain level.
SPEAKER_01So I'm I'm not following. I think the myth is that you lose your level of consciousness when you die.
SPEAKER_00You don't lose your level. In fact, you go to the highest level that you experience while alive on the planet. So, you know, so I will go to the highest level that I have experienced in this lifetime. And and that may be also in subtle realms, the highest level that I've experienced.
SPEAKER_01And is that regardless of how you physically die? If you die on drugs, if you die by suicide, if you die how is that independent of how you die?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in other words, this sort of idea that one goes to the highest level one has experienced while alive is quite um widespread, you know, in Christianity, if you believe in Jesus, so you'll be saved. Buddhism, if you can pass through the bhadas, uh you'll Vishna Vana. So there's a great deal of mythology about this uh moving through planes or levels, and that's my experience too, is that people when they die will go to a certain level, usually the highest level they've experienced in their life. In fact, I can see some of my hands right now, you know, they're they're indicating to me, talk about me. And then at some point they'll let go of that level, the highest level they've attained, and merge and melt into being one of everything. Uh, almost like going to sleep and into a happy, peaceful state, and then being carried back by the lords of karma back into a physical body. So one does not escape that. Can one not return? It's possible to uh stay in uh certainly enlightened states for a long time, but eventually everybody returns.
SPEAKER_01So for people who want to practice Pawa and other practices for conscious death, what are you saying?
SPEAKER_00By all means, because it's not about death, it's about the illusion of death. That's not real, nobody dies. We all go to another plane. So practice it, uh, it'll help you to grow, but don't believe that it's gonna save you from dying or gonna save you from going through bardoes or different planes of existence. It's not gonna save you from that.
SPEAKER_01Is it going to change the outcome in any way, in terms of dying consciously, let's say without morphine or without suicide?
SPEAKER_00No. Um it's a magnificent creation that we live in. Um and some people who are really ill before they die, um, they go to initially to uh a kind of hospital where there are all angels and devas and beings who help one to actually uh heal the word psychological or physical, what remains.
SPEAKER_01You mean on the astral plane?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, on the etheric plane, on the astral plane, and the mental plane to some degree as well. So these beings are that's their purpose is to help clear away the debris of painful endings, so one doesn't hold on to, and one can go for the light, and can go for the this and the joy and the love.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so the next section is about getting enlightenment or attaining awakening, right?
SPEAKER_00Awakening is grace, so it happens because one practices without intent of any kind of ego development. The ego cannot well not the ego that gets enlightened, it's not the ego that gets enlightened, the ego can take you there, can take you closer, but one needs to uh accept that there's many lifetimes before one wakes up. I mean, I remember being awake my last lifetime, and I was uh I went to uh heavenly realm that was totally blissful without conflict, but it was boring after a while.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but what I'm trying to get at here is not that, it's more about striving and pushing, trying, trying, efforting to awaken in the same way we might like work out at the gym to have a strong body.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's possible to have effort and like, for example, this very Buddhist, it's possible to effort oneself into a moment of awakeness, but one cannot stay there through efforting because the ego gets caught in that process, and one identifies with the small ego, and then I did it. I did it, I became I am an enlightenment, uh, not enlightenment is everywhere.
SPEAKER_01And awakening doesn't happen in the mind, so it's not the minds, it's not a it's not understanding concepts.
SPEAKER_00True.
SPEAKER_01So the myth there is that you can use insight to wake up.
SPEAKER_00Yes, you can't logically figure out how to be awake. One has to practice the techniques that you have. Another illusion is there. You need a guru to wake up. So that's not my experience. Certainly, I have many teachers and gurus, but I wouldn't say I needed any of that to wake up. So that's an illusion. And it's an illusion perpetuated by priests and rabbis.
SPEAKER_01The guru industrial complex.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01But people do need guides at some stages of their life. And people do need, like, for example, you, when we were exploring the knower, you needed a more evolved person to tell you what that really was, that that was the source of all knowledge. Yes, you needed that guidance.
SPEAKER_00Right. In fact, the the story of gurus are that ultimately they have to wait their channels, their students up. Students always leave the gurus once they're awake because they don't need the guru anymore. They don't need uh so I remember a story one of my friends told me about meeting with a Buddhist monk who had a lineage, and the lineage uh did not have somebody to follow the Buddhist monk. And he said, I can't find a somebody to take over because every time they get close and they wake up, they leave because they don't need the path anymore, they're beyond the path.
SPEAKER_01So, what are you saying that the that teachers have a vested interest in their students remaining ignorant?
SPEAKER_00Yes, uh really good example is uh transcendental meditation.
SPEAKER_01I went to uh the Great Hall that they have circulated and looked to find awake people, and there was none amongst the 500 people there who've been meditating, many of them for 40 years, there was none who were actually uh had reached a decent level of weightness because uh they were still trapped in the idea that the guru has enlightenment that they don't so it seems to me some people do need teachers at some stages, they need guides. You had Neat early on. Um, we made a podcast about that and the origins of your spiritual life. And other people are more devotionally oriented, and they need someone to adore and be devoted to for some period of time, and a spiritual teacher, clergy person can hold that projection. Um, there are risks in that, but that's you know, that works for some people for a certain period of time. So, what I'm hearing you say is the myth is that you absolutely need to have a guru.
SPEAKER_00Correct. And so what you're saying is guru can be very helpful, can really teach you certain things along the path, can uh wake you up on certain levels, uh, it's all possible, but ultimately um it's not essential, and in fact, it can be more detrimental at certain stages than helpful.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I think we don't want to generalize, we want to kind of discriminate here, and so for some people listening to this, having a teacher can be helpful, can be, and for other people, it's time to separate from your teacher, and a good teacher will let you go when it's the right time.
SPEAKER_00In other words, they'll send you away, and this is a great tradition, just go on your own journey and come back once you've found some part of yourself.
SPEAKER_01Well, don't come back, or don't come back because or send you out to teach, like Papaji sent out all these people to teach.
SPEAKER_00Right, and many of them have reached uh an awake level and interpret that as permanent.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so to sum up here, we hope this is helpful for you. We explored some of the popular myths and misunderstandings that don't fit Dr. Neil's path, his own experience of awakening to non duality.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and you may have a totally different experience because uh everybody has their own journey. And doesn't mean you should follow mine or anybody else's.
SPEAKER_01Okay, thank you. We'll see you next time.