Dr. Neil's Spiritual Awakening to Non-Duality
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You may have heard about spiritual awakening. Do you know someone who is living it? Join us as Dr. Neil Schuitevoerder describes the lived experience of an advanced stage of human consciousness and shares insight for seekers of all traditions. Dr. Neil will speak from the direct experience of Being, Brahman, Sunyata, or Pure Consciousness as he transmits Non-dual Reality to you -- non-dual space/time, non-dual thinking, non-dual love, the non-dual body, and his yogic abilities to travel the cosmos, move through the bardos and, at the same time, live as a psychologist, husband, father, and grandfather. His experience dispels many myths about awakening. He will be interviewed by his partner, Dr. Connie Zweig, author of Meeting the Shadow, Romancing the Shadow, Meeting the Shadow on the Spiritual Path, and the award-winning book The Inner Work of Age: Shifting from Role to Soul.
Dr. Neil's Spiritual Awakening to Non-Duality
Freedom from I, Me, Mine
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Dr. Neil explores the development of a separate identity as a necessary step in evolution as part of the heroic ego’s journey. Then he describes current identity politics as an example of both progress and a hindrance to further development. If we get stuck in a local identity – race, ethnicity, gender, orientation, political tribe, age, religion, beliefs – the expansion of consciousness to our spiritual nature gets blocked. We will miss the freedom that comes from letting go of I, Me, Mine into an unbounded, infinite identification with Everything. The freedom of the shift from role to soul.
Hi, welcome back to the podcast. Today, Dr. Neal is going to talk about freedom from I mean mine. And what do I mean by this? What is the process or the purpose of letting go of our smaller local identities? Most of us identify with the body, the parts of the ego, like the mind, our beliefs, our race, our age, our gender, our sexual orientation, our politics, our religious tribe. And we believe that's who we are. And in some way, these local identities are important along the developmental path. And at a certain point, they begin to block our deeper identification with our essential nature. And so today we're going to talk about the freedom that comes from letting go of those local identities. Okay, Dr. Neil.
SPEAKER_01All right, so let me demonstrate. If you're on audio, you don't see the hand, but you have to take my word for it. So um the ego identifies as moving the hand.
SPEAKER_00The doer.
SPEAKER_01I am the doer, the ego is identified as moving the hand. The soul is using the ego to make the movement. But the movement is actually being done by the divine. It's being done by the divine. So I I'm not moving the same, the same is moving by itself.
SPEAKER_00But when we identify as the doer, it's my hand and I'm in charge of it, then we have a certain experience.
SPEAKER_01Yes, until you get to the place where you identify with the divine, and then the divine is the doer, not the ego and not the individual soul.
SPEAKER_00So that sense of separateness that arises from moving the hand and believing I'm in control of it is what we call ignorance, what we call unconsciousness from a spiritual point of view.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if one looks deeper at the process, the body is empty. There's no tangible thing there. It's like a shell. My mind is not uh moving, it doesn't have any thoughts to it. Uh the emotions are quiet, so the the actual movement is happening through this process, just like the whole cosmos is actually being moved by the divine, not by me.
SPEAKER_00There's something larger than us in charge.
SPEAKER_01It's the doer. The divine is the doer, the big doer.
SPEAKER_00The big doer. We think we're the little doer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And what about when you're speaking, like now?
SPEAKER_01Well, the same thing applies to speech. Um, this mouth is moving, I can see it on the screen. Um, the words are coming out of it. There's no thoughts behind it. Um, I'm not speaking. Speaking is happening. And I when I look to see where it's coming from, it's coming from the divine, from the emptiness, from that which is beyond form. And that gives me a sense of freedom because being beyond form means that I can be anywhere.
SPEAKER_00So, to some people, this might sound strange, even psychotic. It might sound dissociated, but what we're talking about is a level of consciousness.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So I can identify with the ego and say this is my hand and I'm moving it. I can identify with the soul and feel like the soul is making the ego functions. I can identify with the divine and say there's the entire universe is being moving at the moment from moment to moment. In fact, we live in the illusion that time is continuous from the divine level that's being created one instant after another. And I can identify with being emptiness, being nothingness, and everything coming out of that nothingness and returning to that nothingness.
SPEAKER_00So, what I'm hearing you say is there's duality and non-duality happening at the same time for you when you move your hand.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_00You want to say more about that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I am moving the hand, there's an eye, but there's a non-dual. I'm not moving the hand, the hand is being moved. So the hand exists as part of the entire cosmos. That means the physical universe and the subtle universes, the astral, mental, buddhic, atomic, celestial, and divine level. You know, all the entire cosmos is being created each moment and dissolved each moment, and we have this ability to make a story out of it, and you know, and that's part of what is being created for us.
SPEAKER_00So, what's the value of this construct of I, me, mine, my house, my husband, my hand, my money?
SPEAKER_01Well, there you know, one cannot transcend the ego without having an ego. And so the first part of life, the first 40 to 45 years, is about building a functioning, successful ego, financially, emotionally, relationally, in every way. Identity, part of a community, part of a country, part of a gender. So identifying something that makes me feel separate and important and in charge and in control. So that's an important function of the development of the ego. The ego needs to actually exist in order to be transcended. The second part of life, one starts to look at what one has constructed and deconstructed and move into the more subtle realms where we begin to see things are not what they appear, they're they're illusionary, that there's really something bigger going on.
SPEAKER_00So the hero's journey really refers to this developmental stage of ego building, empire building internally and externally. And now what we're talking about in spiritual development is in a way um moving beyond that, including and transcending that. And you've said many times that you are everything. And I remember you recently said you were the wind. What was that about?
SPEAKER_01Well, I was doing inquiry uh in a group, and uh part of the exercise was to go back to the source of what was happening in your life in the moment. And I went back to my mother's womb. I was in the womb, and that's accessible if you're a soul. And I went back further and found myself leaving the womb, and I identified with the wind, which was blowing, and I became the wind. So if one is free from the body, one can identify with anything, and one can identify as fire. So the suffering occurs when one is identified with one thing and not free to move your identity anyway.
SPEAKER_00So as your consciousness became untethered or unhooked from your local identities, husband, father, grandfather, psychologist, there are lots of them, right? This body-mind, Dr. Neil. I call him my sweetie, but you call him Dr. Neil. So all these local identities, what happened to them as your consciousness transcended them?
SPEAKER_01They still all exist. They're all constructs that exist, but now they're transparent. So, you know, if the hand moves, I don't identify this as being my hand moving, I'm moving this hand. Identify this as this hand is moving. So um, psychology is being done. This talking is being happening. So the uh construct is it's uh transparent. So, you know, it's just like if I'm looking at the wall that's in front of me here, I can see the wall, and I can go further into the wall, into the studs and the pieces of wood that are there, I can see what's outside of the room because I'm not just identified with this body, I'm identified with the capacity to see beyond this form. So I can see people on the other side of the planet or even the galaxy, so because I'm not bound to any particular place. So my visual ability and my auditory ability can actually stretch to any part of the universe or the cosmos.
SPEAKER_00On the other hand, if you believed and unconsciously identified, gripped these local identities of Dr. Neil, age 70, husband, father, grandfather, blah blah blah, right? In a way that would stand in the way of all this expansion of consciousness. And in this moment, that's what's going on in our culture. You know, I am a conservative evangelical, or I am a you know, um black gay man, or I am an um elder progressive, right? Whatever that local identity is, that's what's going on right now. And from my point of view, those are good developmental steps. There's nothing negative about it, but what we're pointing out is a bigger picture about the development of human consciousness.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's important to develop a separate identity that's solid and successful and looks good and is good. Um, it's important because if one transcends that identity too soon, you're gonna end up in a mental hospital.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01In fact, I remember when I was uh doing my first master's degree in psychology, I went to a mental hospital, and while I was walking along the corridor, I felt this incredible radiance of bliss and love coming at me from the left-hand side. And uh and I looked to see, and there was this woman, and she was a patient in this man in this facility in total bliss and total love. She was psychotic, she couldn't function in the world. So one needs to develop a functioning ego in order to function in the world, even when you transcend it.
SPEAKER_00That's so funny. I had the same experience when I was treating schizophrenics in the hospital. I don't know if I ever told you that, but there was this man who was crazy out of his mind and radiant with light.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I didn't hear that before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So what we're saying is it's not our job to do spiritual bypass and to try to become nobody before we become somebody. That's not what we're saying.
SPEAKER_01Yes, one needs to be successful financially, relationally, family-wise. Uh perfection is not the goal. Functioning perfectively and successfully is the goal, and each one of the steps that we take contributes towards a more integrated whole ego, which then can be transcended, and we can begin to see the ego as empty, as transparent.
SPEAKER_00And we can begin to experience our identity also as including other lifetimes.
SPEAKER_01Correct. I have six right now that I'm aware of, uh, and I can actually remember one or two people from this lifetime in these previous lifetimes as well.
SPEAKER_00So that's another expansion in time of identity.
SPEAKER_01Time becomes transparent too. So, you know, I my consciousness can go back to the big bang, and you know, I was there because my consciousness was beyond time, space, and I was I I can identify as being at the Big Bang and experiencing it as it occurred. That may sound psychotic, but it's just my experience.
SPEAKER_00So I'm wondering what we might say to people who are listening to this and recognizing now in this moment that they're gripping some local identity. It could be um a political belief, it could be a gender or an age or a racial identity or a family, tribal history, a victim of abuse. It could be the story that they've told themselves all their lives, that that's who I am. So, what advice do we give as people begin to wake up that I am not that identity, that construct, or that story?
SPEAKER_01Well, as a psychologist, um, I would see clients and help them to integrate their egos, help them to become happier, more functional, less neurotic, less crazy, uh, and more successful in their personal relationships and their financial relationships in their life. And at some point in that process, it became clear with some people that it was time to look and see the construct as transparent, as a form that can be included and transcended. So if you're there, then that's your step. If you're not, then important is to develop success and not bypass it. Sometimes it can take many lifetimes to develop integration. But if you're ready, one can transcend to more and more subtle levels.
SPEAKER_00So, what is it like to identify with being Dr. Neil and not identify with being Dr. Neil? To have that duality and non-duality at the same time, just a matter of focus.
SPEAKER_01In other words, there's duality if I focus on duality, and there's non-duality if I focus on non-duality, it's where attention is placed. So, you know, um, if attention is placed on the big bang, then that's where I'm at. If attention is placed on looking at the galaxy, that's where I'm at. Attention is placed on being next to my lovely wife, that's where I'm at.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and is there a background, like a sub like a foreground, background going on? Is the non-duality there when you're talking to me?
SPEAKER_01Is the being duality is always there, in other words, it's accessible for me uh at any moment in time and space. So, you know, it could be um in the morning, afternoon, at night time. All it takes is attention, so it's always available. So is duality always available.
SPEAKER_00So, what creates the suffering?
SPEAKER_01Suffering is because one is attached to one of these constructs, in other words, uh and some of them get more and more subtle. For example, one can be attached to a form of deity that's my God, and more subtle, one can be attached to emptiness, and even though that in some traditions that's the goal. So, you know, attachment to any form you know has the potential to keep one stuck and cause a sense of suffering. Yeah, in other words, I I'm attached to this life, so death then becomes something to fear. If I'm not attached to this life, if I feel I will continue and go on after this life, then death becomes a construct that I could see through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we've been with people who experience altered states or advanced states and get attached to them and wish they would last. So we can be attached to higher states of consciousness just as easily as we can be attached to even more so, yeah, local identities.
SPEAKER_01And I remember my past lifetime, this one before this, I was attached to Brahma Loka, bliss, blissful heaven, totally attached to blissful heaven, so ecstatic bliss continuum, 24 hour seven. And eventually I woke up from it and discovered that I was really strapped, and I was not free, so I came back again to being human.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, we recently experienced the fires in LA, and people suffered tremendous loss, and we don't want to minimize the suffering of people who were attached to homes and possessions and loved ones and no one needs compassion, right? So we're not saying pretend you're not attached.
SPEAKER_01No, but you know, I remember living in Tapanga in the fire zone, and I needing to evacuate for the half dozen times. The threat of the fire coming over the hill, I could actually see it coming over the hill, was actually liberating because it freed me of being attached to that place and form of home.
SPEAKER_00So, in terms of I mean, mine, our topic, you know, I am important, my house is important, my family home has all this history, my work, my beliefs. Um, we're taught that all of that is meaningful, it's important. And so, what do you say to that? And this feels a little bit against the cultural grain.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, it's like my mother died about 18 months ago, and she was 95, and I loved her, she loved me, and I felt no grief when she died, I felt no loss because she continued to be in my consciousness, uh, and I can still connect with her and talk with her, and she can talk with me. So one gets free because one is not attached to death being the end.
SPEAKER_00You can also be attached to a repeating thought, yes, that's true, you know, um obsessive, yeah, a repeating image that you're seeing that creates suffering. So, what do you advise about that?
SPEAKER_01Well, I had that experience this morning, you know, where I was uh was thinking about a movie that I saw about uh a young boy in India who got lost on a train and ended up in being adopted and going to Australia.
SPEAKER_00It's called Lion, if you want to watch it.
SPEAKER_01It's beautiful, beautiful movie, anyway. So the story is he was lost, and nobody could help him find himself. Uh, and so my mind was going over there over and over and over, and eventually I decided to take a look and see what was really going on inside my mind, and it was really about liberating myself from the idea of home being permanent, that you can't get lost. Of course, you can get lost, and that's freedom being lost.
SPEAKER_00So he was young and innocent and didn't have the level to experience it as freedom, but there's a way in which letting go of all those attachments is free, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, being a sadhu in India, a wandering monk, is uh is a freedom, it's supposed to be freedom because one is doesn't take one's clothes and money and attachments and family and community with one goes wandering and finding God, finding the spiritual roots by being free from all attachments. So we've spoken about many different ways of being attached and letting go.
SPEAKER_00And I, you know, in my book, The Inner Work of Age, I call this shifting from role to soul. So what we're really describing is an internal shift in consciousness in our identity from what we do, what we believe, what we own, to who we really are. And it's complicated, it's not easy, it's not quick, and it's possible.
SPEAKER_01Seems to be.
SPEAKER_00You want to say anything more about that?
SPEAKER_01No, thank you for listening. I've enjoyed talking.
SPEAKER_00And do you want to say anything about the present moment where you're at?
SPEAKER_01I'm everywhere. So it's nice to be everywhere. It's freedom. And wherever I identify only lasts a few seconds, a few minutes, a few hours, passes on.
SPEAKER_00Okay, thank you. See you next time.
SPEAKER_01Bye bye.