Inner Work After Awakening

“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences.”—the third Chinese patriarch of Zen.

Today Neil describes the role of preferences, likes and dislikes, love and hate after awakening. He addresses the question: How do we include the people or behaviors that we find unacceptable in the One? If we feel a great attraction or aversion to a politician, celebrity, or friend, do we need to do shadow-work post-awakening? He explains that these pairs of opposites, and their shadow material, are different in different stages of consciousness – and therefore require a different attention.

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:45

Hi, welcome back. We're happy to be with you today. So, today we're going to talk about how to include those people or things or behaviors that you find unacceptable in the one? If you're living in non-duality and everything is consciousness, what happens if you don't like a person? What happens with the duality of love and hate? Or, as the Buddhists call it, attraction and aversion? So if you're awake in a non-dual stage, do you still need to do shadow work on those issues that are unacceptable to you? We could be talking about a politician or a celebrity or a friend, but you have a great attraction or you have a great aversion, even though everything is in the one, right? So, how do we make sense of that? And about how we project parts of ourselves that are unacceptable to our identity onto other people. And do people who are awake continue to do that? How do they do their own shadow work? And Neil and I have been chatting about that this week. And so I wanted to ask him that question. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yes. Well, there are different levels that one goes through. And at the ego level, ego has a shadow. And that means that an unconscious part that actually holds all of the forbidden or difficult parts of the of the self. So my ego has many negative spots: murderous rage, devastation, destructiveness, hate, uh, preferences, desires for certain foods. So from an ego level, you know, those all those exist and there's a shadow. From a soul level, the identity there also has things that are positive, uh life-affirming, and things that are negative. And so projection happens on an ego level because one puts into the other what one does not own in oneself. Also happens on a soul level. One puts into the world or into the other. Like those people who don't approve of climate control. You know, I don't like them from an ego level, and I don't like them from a soul level.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

What does that mean? Don't like from a soul level? I don't know what that means.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

That means that on those levels, there's a projection that those people out there are holding opinions and positions that I I don't want, I don't, I can't approve. I don't like them.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

So how so the question for this conversation is how do you include those people in the oneness, in your unity consciousness?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, so one goes up to another level where one is um mindful of being one with the universe, and in which in a non-dual state, everything is present at the same time. So love, hate, good, bad, or preferences, or dislikes, whatever is is there, it's all on the same level, it's all present. But that doesn't mean that there's no shadow. That that means that your experience is that they're all the same. There's only oneness and they're all the same. But that doesn't mean there's no shadow there. In fact, when goes a little further, one just discovers that there's a huge shadow. And working on on the shadow is about non-duality and duality existing at the same time. So your identity is in both. And uh so it's important to work on the on these issues because you contain it at all, you are at all.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So, what form does shadow work take post-awakening?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

It's about being mindful, and I'm again going to look at this from a Jewish perspective because that's my perspective. Um, because I know that certainly Buddhism, Buddhism and Hinduism, uh Vedanta tends to look at being awake as being pure states where one's actions are automatically positive in life and firmly. But I tend I don't personally have that view. So uh my personal view is that as I become more conscious, so I can do more harm. And it's important, even when you're not aware of the shadow, to actually embrace it, to actually recognize that it's there.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

So let's use an example. So somebody who's a fundamentalist terrorist or a fundamentalist parent, or you know, somebody whose beliefs and behaviors are difficult for you to accept. Okay, because of their extreme, they're mean, they're uncaring and potentially destructive. Okay. So that person then from your non-dual state, that person is also divine, also essentially part of the one, pure consciousness. And at the same time, we have to differentiate these other levels of life. So we have to differentiate the psychology, for example. So that person's psychology is different from yours.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

We could say it's narrower or it's more primitive, I would say. And so when you make that differentiation, then what happens? Do you are you holding the non-dual acceptance at the same time as you're holding the dualistic judgment?

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Absolutely. I guess the best example for this or theoretical model for this would be Wilbur's idea of transcend and include. That means that inside of my consciousness, inside of our consciousness, there's a caveman who would like to go and beat somebody up and kill them, take what they have. Inside my consciousness is an agrarian being who would probably die if I was rejected from the group. So there's inside of my consciousness is us and them. And that's what that doesn't mean by transcending it, that you eliminate it, it doesn't exist. You include it in your consciousness.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

So you look at that fundamentalist as an earlier stage of humanity that's within you, as an earlier stage of humanity that is is me, it's not separate from me. Okay. So how do you relate to that person yourself?

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Well, you know, from a non-dual perspective, there's love for everyone, there's observing everyone, there's knowledge that everything is a part of the self, that there's no inside or outside. From an ego perspective, I don't like them.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

I never hear you say that though. Yeah, well, you rarely say that about anybody.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

There's something about waking up that actually tends to focus one on a more positive framework if one has the model of recognizing that the opposite is included in the self.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

But see, I think that's because you've done your growing up and your waking up. That's you've done your psychological work along with your spiritual development, and I think that's why.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

So for other people who attain higher stages of awakening, they may not have that experience.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yes, I think um going through the stages of growing up as Wilbur defines them is as important as waking up. In fact, I believe it's more important because these are much longer-term aspects of becoming more evolved, and your identity is more developed.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

So our 30-year relationship has involved a lot of shadow work, right? Because I was just launching Romancing the Shadow when we met. That's true, and we kind of used my method a lot to cultivate, to break our unconscious patterns and to cultivate our intimacy. But there are many people who don't have those tools, and all they're doing is meditating. And so it seems to me there's a lot of risk of a lot of repression and a lot of acting as if, oh, this is what a spiritually awake person looks like, so I'm gonna act that way. When internally, what's really happening is a lot of shadow material is building charge because they think they're not supposed to be judging or feeling attraction and aversion or having preferences, right? Because that's not spiritual. So I think part of what we're saying is that the psychological work needs to go hand in hand with the spiritual development for this very reason. And it continues.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yes, healthy relationships like marriage. If you want a healthy marriage or uh healthy parenting involves a lot of development of compassion, caring, uh, not denying reality, being able to put yourself in the other person's position, understanding the self and learning how to take care of yourself. So this is all ego development and is important, it's imperative waking up to a better state.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah, but it's not only that. I mean, to me, that sounds like ego work. And I'm talking about the unconscious material. You know, what do you project onto your child as a parent? I mean, I know someone who has a good child and a bad child, right? There's projection all over the place. Of course. So shadow work after you're awake, I think most people think that they're done.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah, but that's an illusion.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Right? They're cooked. That's an illusion. So, can you give us an example of some shadow work that you're doing now, post non-duality?

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Trump is a good example, and the economy is a good example. Um, so there's some fear about running out of money, uh, some anger at Trump for who who he is and what he's done. And yet, while I'm experiencing that on an ego level, and maybe even on a soul level, on a conscious level, on a non-dual level, it's all here. It's all present. There's nothing to push away and nothing to hold back. It's all present. It's all trust, it's all trustworthy as the unfoldment of the of the universe. In fact, the the um actions of individuals are not really the actions of individuals, they're actually spontaneous processes of the of the deities, the gods, the demons that are acting out their story through uh the human drama. And beyond that, there are this unfolding from the source.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

So it sounds to me like what you're saying is you're differentiating the personality level where you are having strong feelings about what's going on from the non-dual level, where you're accepting that something higher or you're trusting that something higher is in charge. So, you know, I I've been getting asked a lot of questions about politics in my teaching, and how do you do shadow work for yourself with leaders who are dangerous and frightening? But what I'm hearing you say is so there's the ego level of work, and then there's this non-dual level, where whether it's about climate or economics or all of the crises that we're in right now, war, that from that level of consciousness, it's a different experience. It seems sounds like it's all it's qualitatively different.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

It is.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Can you say anything more about in your psychology, on your ego ego level, you experience it the way I do, but on your awake level, it's very different.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Yes, everything is present, everything is equal, everything is um I don't know what that means, sweetie.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Everything is equal. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 15:31

It means there's no preferences, no preferences, it's not not good or bad, it's not right or wrong, it's not here or there. There's it's not the past or the future, it's not even the present. It all is and it's all the creation from a non-dual level, there's no opposites. So that experience tends for some people, if they haven't developed through the the lower chakras, so to speak, or the high, they haven't gone through the whole evolutionary process, to think that you know what they project outwards, that they they're good and they're projecting outwards evil or bad, or for preferences of something, somebody else. So it doesn't matter what level you're at, this is gonna occur.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

So projection continues after awakening, and therefore shadow work is needed after awakening. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Correct. So, in other words, in order not to do harm, one has to have actually developed and or needs to develop that actual capacity or orientation to uh shadow work, even even in a non-dual state where there's no awareness in the non-dual state, but the non-dual state incorporates duality as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Can you just say a little bit before we end what it's like to hold those two states? We did one podcast on living in both duality and non-duality, but in relation to this, love and hate, like and dislike, what is it like to hold the both of those around these opposites?

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Well, it's like moving levels. So identity can be the body, and identity can be the emotional world or the mental world or the ego, and identity can also move to the next level of being the soul. Identity can move to the next level of being conscious and being one with the universe. Identity can move to the level of non-duality, and at each of these levels, one has different experiences of good and evil, right and wrong. And some some of them have an absence, like non-duality seems to have an absence of shadow, but that doesn't mean that that's the reality. I mean, one needs to go deeper than that, so and and find the the shadow that one one is projecting outwards unconsciously.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

So there's still an unconscious in non-duality.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

There's an unconscious, and there's an unconscious in in waking up, there's an unconscious part of oneself. So it's important to actually work on that because, like I said, my model is the is the Jewish model. Uh, and one never one can never transcends that. So these exist at the same time. All of these different energies and preferences and processes that exist at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

I think I'd like to ask one final question. You know, it seems that many people hear spiritual teachings as you should have no preferences, you should be unattached, you shouldn't like or dislike, you shouldn't have attractions and aversions before you're awake. That will wake you up, right? And I my sense of it is that this experience that you're describing is a result of awakening, not a cause. It can't be faked. If your identity is rooted in your ego, you can't pretend to have no preferences or attachments. No, that's true. And so it sounds like what you're saying is there's this is a myth that the reality is these qualities of no quality, these these traits of no attraction, aversion follow non-duality, they don't lead to non-duality.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yes, well, many people have paths, different paths to non-duality. And some are practicing the imitations of non-duality, you know, and in those imitations of non-duality, there's a movement towards non-duality. But one cannot describe non-duality without having it.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

You you can't make a mood of it.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

You can't make a mood of it. You can't say, I have no preferences because that's not good for the way. One has to actually live that. So the non-dual state has no preferences, but I don't live in the non-dual state alone. I live in ego states, in soul states, waking up states, in post-nondual states.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

So um, and all of those have different dynamics, and different dynamics around opposites of love and hate and good and evil.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Okay. You want to say anything about where you're at in the present moment?

SPEAKER_00 20:51

No, I think this is a very complex issue and is poorly understood in many traditions. And uh I have a great deal of compassion for those people struggling with this issue, with being victims of rejection, being victims of denial, being victims of splitting, and beings that are not grown up but are awake, and beings that are not awake all grown up. So um I love you all as part of myself and as part of you. We're all one.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

Thank you. I hope this shed some light on this complex issue. See you next time.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Bye bye.