Desert Island Tricks
Each week we invite one of the biggest guests in the world of magic to maroon themselves on a desert island. They are allowed to take with them 8 tricks, 1 book, 1 banishment and 1 non magic item that they use for magic! We discuss their 'can't live without' lists and why those items were chosen.
Episodes are uploaded every Friday and are available via all Podcast service providers!
To find out more about the team behind Desert Island Tricks, please visit: www.alakazam.co.uk
Desert Island Tricks
Marc Paul
Marc Paul is a legend in the world of magic and mentalism and in this episode, he takes us on a fascinating journey through his world of professional mentalism with an insightful conversation about the routines that have defined his illustrious career. With over 35 years of experience performing across cruise ships, corporate events, and theatres worldwide, Marc distills decades of wisdom into practical advice about creating genuine moments of wonder.
The Magic Square serves as Marc's favourite opener, a lightning calculation demonstration that establishes credibility while generating multiple audience reactions within minutes. He explains why this seemingly mathematical feat creates the perfect foundation for the mind reading to follow. Throughout our conversation, Marc reveals how he thoughtfully structures his performances to build a sense of escalation, carefully managing the audience's perception of impossibility.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is Marc's focus on minimalist methodology. Some of his most powerful routines require nothing more than bits of paper and marker pens, the props becoming invisible as the audience focuses entirely on the impossibilities being demonstrated. "The props are not props," Marc explains. "The show is about what you do with them. The show is the people that come up on stage."
We delve deep into Marc's relationship with his mentor David Berglas, exploring how this legendary figure shaped Marc's approach to creating and preserving mystery. Marc shares touching insights about Berglas's ability to create seemingly improvisational magic with nothing but a deck of cards, reminding us that in an age of technological innovation and exposure, true magic often lies in simplicity, psychology, and the artful preservation of wonder.
Whether you're a professional performer looking to refine your approach or simply curious about the thoughtful craftsmanship behind world-class mentalism, this episode offers invaluable wisdom about creating meaningful experiences that audiences remember long after the show ends.
Marc’s Desert Island Tricks:
1. The Magic Square
2. Audience Chair Test
3. Challenge Mind Reading
4. ESPacology
5. Two Billet Test
6. Card Memory Demonstration
7. Sneak Thief
8. Blindfold Q&A
Banishment. Inconsistency in Performance
Book. The Berglas Effects
Item. Magnum Sharpie / The Stand by Steven King
Find out more about the team behind this podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk
Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk
the man was all about mystery and that you know that was so important. And sometimes nowadays in magic it's sort of being a bit sidelined. You know, with all the stuff we see on TikTok and all the exposure and so on, it's you know, some of the mystery is being eroded and it's a real shame because Bergolas was a legend, was unique in the sense that, you know, there was nothing. No one will ever be like him again. And he once told me that for him a deck of cards was the ultimate effect. You know that he could walk out on stage with a pack of cards in a box. He would throw it on the table and know that he had 20 minutes, half an hour of mind blowing material. And what was even better about it, he didn't know where it would start and he didn't know where it would end. It's like the ultimate improv and the ultimate freedom. Can you imagine? I mean that's just to me. I have the hugest respect for comedians. They're the ultimate entertainer. They stand up with nothing except their words.
Speaker 3:Hello and welcome to another episode of Desert Island Tricks. I am incredibly, incredibly excited today because we have one of the guests that I've wanted to come onto the podcast since we put the podcast together. Now, if you don't know who this gentleman is genuinely, where on earth have you been? He is an absolutely phenomenal talent in our world, certainly in the world of not just magic, but I think most people will know him nowadays for his mentalism contributions. He is one of the rare performers or creators of whom I see a product or a lecture or an event and I will automatically purchase it or I'll automatically try and get there and see it, because everything he puts together or puts out is guaranteed to be phenomenal. If you've not seen things like his penguin lectures, if you've not seen some of the contributions that he actually puts on other people's products. So I've also noticed that he's very generous with his time and his thoughts with other people's products as well. So you always see him popping up and it's always just gold. Now I've actually watched him growing up as well through Marvin's Magic and certain performances there. So, like I say, I am genuinely incredibly excited to have him on.
Speaker 3:I know it's going to be a really interesting list, and of course we can all play Mark Paul Bingo. So that is the name. We do have him here. It is the wonderful Mark Paul. Hello Mark.
Speaker 1:Hello Jamie, thank you so much for having me on, but I have to say your intro has made me feel very old. That's the thing With age comes a little bit of wisdom. So hopefully I've got something interesting to say to you.
Speaker 3:Well, how long have you even been in magic? I mean, I'm not sure what age you started. I know it was fairly young, but it seems to have just been forever.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm 56 now. I started, well, I got interested when I was about 10 years old, so you know, that's 46 years. But I became a pro, um, when I was 20. So you know, I've I've been working as a magician, uh, you know, for for well 30, 35 plus years. So, um, you know, and and don't always think that I've been a mentalist, you know, I mean, I used to do close-up, you know, I used to sort of do um sort of more stand-up comedy magic. You know, we're all influenced by Paul Daniels and Wayne Dobson. I think I sort of started out like that in my teens. So, you know, but you sort of find your own way and your own feet and I sort of gravitated towards the mentalism. So that's what most people know me for, because that's what I've been doing for about the last sort of 20 years or so.
Speaker 3:Well, I think, your contributions to mentalism. You seem to be one of the creators and performers who can really soak up and digest methods and it seems to be someone. You're someone who can reference things really quickly and really easily off the top of your head. And I've noticed, like I mentioned earlier, I've noticed that you pop up in a lot of other people's projects. I know I've seen you on Looch's membership platform before and you seem to be really good at just coming out with those methods and saying, well, yeah, I think this belonged to this person, and then you take one or two of those methods and you put them together to create something so commercial, so well thought through. Um, just an example, your envelope tests are always so good.
Speaker 1:Every time I see one, they're so cleverly constructed well, you're absolutely right when you say I'm sort of, um, I'm well read. You know, there was a period of my life in my sort of early 20s, and it probably lasted about 10 years, it probably lasted until I was 30, where I was immersed in magic. And when I say immersed, I mean I lived it and breathed it every day, every hour, every day. You know, anthony Owen was, you know, renting a room in my house. Danny Buckler was renting a room in my house. You know, we would be brainstorming, talking about magic, reading magic books, trying tricks out on each other and, of course, going out and doing gigs as well.
Speaker 1:And I think that immersive period was so important in forming who I am today, because, you know, I read a lot. I still read a lot and I think, if you're a magician, I know DVDs are fantastic and they are, they are great, but I still love a good magic book. You know to read and immerse yourself and let your own imagination play on those methods. And you're absolutely right, I mean from a creative point of view. If people say, you know, where does your creativity come from? Well, I say it's other people. I mean it comes from earlier ideas. And if there's any originality, it's the combining of those ideas together to form something new or take it in a different direction. So you know, if you're a young performer, I think you know, don't be afraid to immerse yourself in it for a period of time. You know, be that geek, be the magic geek, because that was me.
Speaker 3:And what point in your career did you transfer into the mentalism? Because, like I say, I remember seeing you doing Marvin's Magic and then there seems to be this it's almost like a period in time where you went from one thing straight into another. It feels like quite a direct transition. Is that the case, or was it a gradual thing? Over time?
Speaker 1:It was quite quick from yes, from a time perspective, but there'd been a lot of preparation leading up to that period. I mean, what happened really is I looked in the mirror first of all, and I think it's important as a performer that you've got to do that. You look in the mirror and you have to be 100 percent honest with what you're seeing. Who are you? You know what do you look like. You're tall, you're short. You know what's your hair like. You know, are you losing your hair? Are you spotty? Are you whatever it is? You've got to accept the truth of what you're seeing in the mirror.
Speaker 1:And when I looked in the mirror, the problem is I'm not a funny guy, not really. I'm quite a sort of serious person and I think that sort of came through from looking in the mirror and I realized that I can't really be a Paul Daniels or be a Wayne Dobson and have that sort of cheeky chappy. You know, I mean nowadays I look at people like you know Tom Wright. You know he's got that same sort of cheeky chappy. You know Michael J Fitch same thing. That's just not me, that's not my style. So I think it really came from realising that and I always wanted my magic to be amazing. I think a magician is about generating booze and ours about generating and creating wonder. It's not about laughs not for me. You know there are lots of other professions that can get laughs, lots of other entertainment professions and I think it's sort of we have something extra, we have that sense of wonder which very few other branches of entertainment can invoke. So I wanted my magic to be really super strong and I sort of just naturally gravitated towards the mentalism. It seemed to be the area that sort of worked for me. I remember reading a quote in the Jinx that Anaman said, where he said sort of mentalism is the grown-up form of magic, and sort of in a way he's right. I cannot see myself tucking a red silk handkerchief into my hand and making it disappear. As a 50-year-old man, that's not something I would do. What am I doing there? But the idea that I'm sort of maybe an expert in the mind, an expert in body language or whatever it is, that I'm sort of maybe an expert in the mind, an expert in body language or whatever it is that I'm sort of uh, is my sort of pseudo process, then that's something I feel I can sell and I think it does need that slightly serious leaning to sort of make it believable, because if you put too much comedy in it it becomes becomes unbelievable.
Speaker 1:So I think what happened was I was doing a lot of close-up, I wanted to become a stage performer. I had done a lot of research in mentalism. I put a mentalism act together. I had performed it at places like Monday Night Magic, the Hen and Chickens. Richard McDougall had a place down at Battersea Art Centre, which was called Ever so Slightly, I think and I had been trying out these mentalism routines and they seemed to work. They seemed to fit me and work well.
Speaker 1:And so what happened was I was doing a lot of commercial close-up magic. I was doing a lot of close-up table hopping and, to be honest, I was sort of starting to burn out at that sort of stuff. It was sort of in the mid-90s, this was, and I wanted to. I'd seen John Lennon at a gig where I was doing close-up work. I had to work for three hours. John Lennon comes out and does 25 minutes and has earned, like you know, three times the amount I've earned or more.
Speaker 1:So I was like I want to do that, I want to be that, and so in the space of a year I literally became a mentalist. So it was quite a quick period of time. And the way I did it was to leverage the close up gigs. So I would upsell a close up gig and say, oh, by the way, you know, for an extra X amount I'll do a 10 minute bit at the end of something special. You know some mind reading at the end of you know, or or you know it's coffee stage of the gig, or something like that. And it really was quite a short process to get to that point where I, you know I was doing a sort of 40 minute cabaret rather than going out doing the close up.
Speaker 3:Well, you've sort of given us something to bite onto there, and whether in a good way or or not, because normally we play guest bingo. So today we're going to play mark paul bingo and the idea is that we can start to think about what we think you would put in your list.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, interesting yes interestingly, you said that you cannot see yourself put in a red handkerchief into your hand, so that gives us maybe an idea of what you may not include. But then you threw us a little curveball by mentioning cabaret performances and close up performances and you also mentioned the transition into mentalism. So everyone playing at home. Do we think the list is going to be purely mentalism? Do we think it's going to be a mixture of close-up mentalism and stage mentalism if that's where you're going or do we think there's going to be a couple of curveballs in there? Because, like you mentioned, your background is not just in mentalism, it really is a completely diverse pool of magic, so we could have a couple of little curveballs in there. It's going to be an interesting list, I think or I might just be very straightforward and boring if this is your first time listening.
Speaker 3:The idea is that we're about to maroon mark on his very own desert island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks. Banish one item, take one book and one non-magic item that he uses for magic particulars like who's there, what's there, how many people are there, how big the island is, we do not mind, it's all in mark's own imagination. We just care about the list, because this is the ultimate list of tricks that he could not live without. So, that being said, let's take that little journey over to your island, mark, and find out what you put in position number one okay.
Speaker 1:well, what you're going to get here is a list that really is. It's all performance stuff. There are no pipe dreams here. This is all stuff that I have done and I do regularly still. These this is all part of my working set is really what you're going to see here. So in position number one is the Magic Square. In position number one is the magic square.
Speaker 1:Now, I'm not a fan of the magic square and I've been sort of quite vocal about that over the years, but the magic square is phenomenal. It is probably the best opening routine for a mentalist that I have ever found. And as we were discussing. You know I'm fairly well read. You know I do keep myself abreast of things as well, and I know there are other classic openers, you know, like a tossed out deck or maybe a just chance routine or something like that. But the Magic Square for me. I think I've been opening my show, certainly on cruise ships. It's not something I do in corporate world, I must confess I've been opening my show, certainly on cruise ships. It's not something I do in the corporate world, I must confess I've tried it a few times in the corporate world and it doesn't quite hit in the same way as it does on a cruise ship, and I think I'll sort of explain why. I think that that might be in a moment. So the thing is, although I'm not a fan of the Magic Square, what it does is it? It? It's a lovely bridge. You're going from an unknown performer to someone who's going to be doing amazing impossibilities, so you're going to be reading minds, essentially by the end of the performance.
Speaker 1:And what the magic square does. It's a lovely starting point because it's something believable. It is something achievable by everyone in the audience. I mean, at the end of the day, if they've got a formula, you know, they understand that it's a formula. They understand that there is some sort of process involved that's going to generate the square. And, by the way, if you don't know what a magic square is, it's basically a grid, four by four, and the audience call out a two-digit number.
Speaker 1:I quickly put a number in every single box on the grid. So I write 16 numbers down and then immediately show that's all done in under 30 seconds and I immediately show that every row totals the number they called out. Every column, every diagonal, the pan diagonals, those are the half diagonals, the groups of four in the corner, the groups, four in the middle and H of the corners added all together is the number they've called out in every single direction. So it's a lightning calculation demonstration, and I love lightning calculation demonstrations. There's not many of them around, not many performers do them, and I think it's that wonderful thing where you don't even have to worry about an audience that doesn't like numbers, because this is all about a mental process. It's showing that you can do something incredibly fast with your mind that most people cannot do, but it's a believable skill. People think that with practice they could do that too. So that's really the opener. That is number one.
Speaker 3:I think it's very much an example of a magic routine that lives or dies on presentation over the method, so to speak, and the fact that you just mentioned that it gives credence to your skills as a performer and then you followed that up with that's your opener is that why it's in that position? So it almost warms the audience to the idea that you can do these things and what you're about to demonstrate is based on skill as opposed to trickery or illusion.
Speaker 1:Absolutely exactly that. I mean you said you know it warms the audience to these ideas and that's exactly how I treat it. I treat it as a mental warm up. It's me warming up before I go into the other sort of more difficult mental processes that I'm going to be exhibiting during the show. So it warms me up, apparently, it warms the audience up and then I after that I sort of segue into something that is an audience warm up as well.
Speaker 1:But I think for me you hit on a very, very important point and that is presentation is everything with the magic square. For me it's all about speed. The whole thing is done in about three minutes. The whole thing, that's the calling of the number out, it's generating the square, showing all the combinations of the square, of the square, and during those sort of showing of the combinations I can sometimes get up to six rounds of applause or six reactions to what I'm doing. Sort of.
Speaker 1:Each new phase is a surprise to the general public. You know, we as magicians we sometimes look at an effect like the magic square and we sort of gloss over it because we sort of know what it is, we know what it achieves. The method is frankly quite uninteresting, you know, and and we forget the, the appeal it can have. Um. So for me, it's about speed, it's about generating reaction, so I can, within three minutes, I can have the audience applauding, cheering, and have done so maybe five or six times, and I simply can't find another opening effect that can do that. Can you think of one? Or if anyone can think of one, let me know, because I really would like to know.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a really interesting thing with mentalism, I would say, say in particular in in terms of a field of magic or a genre of magic in which there is some sort of illogical logical reveals. So, for example, the chair test is a reveal which you're going to get four or five reactions from the audience which really you shouldn't get, because logically, if a happens, then b, c, d, e, f however many reveals you've got are going to happen equally a reveal at the end of the show. So you've done all this mentalism and then there's an envelope with all those revelations in. Really you shouldn't get a reaction there either. And this falls into that same bracket where really if a and b works, then obviously the whole thing's going to work. And I think that probably comes into the performance aspect of it. It must be how you're performing it which really elevates that moment and makes the audience come with you on that little journey.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm so glad you sort of raised that point because again I think you're absolutely right. You've hit the nail on the head with this. I I think there there are various discussions in magic. I I do remember having um a discussion with michael weber about the prediction magic square. So this is the idea that you, you do a, a magic square and and je and Jeffrey Durham does a great version of this. So in Jeffrey's version, this is where he generates the magic square and then at the end he turns it around and on the back of the board is an envelope and you open up the envelope and you take out a large piece of paper that you unfold and you've predicted the two-digit number that the audience was going to call out. And you've predicted the two-digit number that the audience was going to call out. Now, when you speak to someone like Michael Weber, who's such an intellectual thinker about magic and it's about themes and thematics, he's saying this is totally illogical, and he's absolutely right. It would be illogical to generate a magic square with a random number and then show that you've predicted it, because it undermines what the magic square is. If you already knew the numbers, you could have sat there and spent three hours working out a magic square. It doesn't make sense. But there is a very, very, very important point and that is it's about the audience, and David Berglois recognized this. We're going to talk about Berglois a number of times.
Speaker 1:Through this, berglois could do a reveal. And then do I mean, for example, you know, his newspaper test. He would reveal a piece of information. He would, you know, be the word that was chosen in the newspaper. He would open up a prediction which was in an envelope and there was the word predicted. But then he would show that, you know, he would have an argument that oh, maybe you think I switched it or something. So here's a folder and in here is a copy of the newspaper, but there's only one page in here and circled on the page is the word Now. That's essentially the same reveal, but it's not to the audience. It seems to escalate. And then at the end of the performance, burglass takes his jacket off and as he's walking off stage you see that on the back of his shirt is the word Now. He's basically predicted the same thing three times and that thematically should not work, but it does. There is a sense of escalation and sense of escalation is so important in mentalism. We are essentially doing the same thing.
Speaker 1:You think of something, I tell you what it is. You think of something else and I tell you what it is. Now, but from the general public's point of view, if you think of a number between one and 10, and I tell you what it is, hey, that's pretty good. If I tell you the word you're thinking of from a dictionary, that's really impressive. That's really impressive. But if I tell you the first person you kissed when you were 12 years old at school, that's incredible. Same three effects.
Speaker 1:We good mentalism act does. I mean? I love revealing personal information, but I'm not going to be revealing that too early on in the show. I'm going to be saving that to the end of the show because I know in the minds of the general public it is much more impactful. Much more impactful than telling them a word they're thinking of out of hundreds of thousands of words from a book, and the reality is probably there are only 50 or so men's names that come up all the time. But the audience is not thinking like that. There is really genuinely a sense of escalation and that's what the Magic Square does. There is this sense of escalation behind it. Well, I think that that's what the magic square does there is this sense of escalation behind it.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that that's a great opening gambit, and you've also teased something there which is we're going to be hearing someone's name throughout the podcast. So that leads us into number two. So what did you put in your second position?
Speaker 1:Okay, well, interesting.
Speaker 1:You, in the last example, you brought up the idea of something like a chair test, and I love chair tests and David Bergloff had a great chair test, and I've gone through many different versions of chair tests over the years and what I'm going to describe to you now is an original effect with me. This is something I haven't released yet. It's something that's in my show almost all the time. Some people maybe have seen me perform it because I've performed it recently at Blackpool, and it may be something I release in the future, but it is a chair test which involves three people in the audience on stage, and for me this was a revelation. I was forced to create it.
Speaker 1:What happened was during COVID, during lockdown, we were very quickly told that as soon as the cruise ships start back up again, yes, we can start work, but no spectator can come up on stage. You're not allowed to have any transfer of any item. So you couldn't get someone to pick a card. You couldn't hand someone a paper and a pen. That would not be allowed. Now this is quite interesting because now that actually eliminates 98% of all methods that mentalists are using. So I really had to create two brand new 45-minute shows of mind reading when no one comes up on stage, and that's what I did during COVID, during lockdown. That was my task Each day. I worked on that problem. What do I do? How do I solve this problem and it's a tough one to solve, but I was very pleased that I did solve it and I did have two 45-minute shows. No one comes up on stage, no transfer of items between people. You can guess the Magic Square was part of it. It was still my opening routine. It was already in there, um, and what I ended up doing was sort of hiring our village hall and going down there, you know, pretty much two or three times a week, blocking everything through, and then, when the cruise ship started up, I literally went out to my first cruise ship and did a show, two shows that I've never done before, ever in my life, you know. So it was quite a challenge, but what came out of it was some fantastic concepts and idea, and that's what I'm going to describe to you now.
Speaker 1:This is the chair test when no one comes up on stage. So basically, it's four envelopes that are displayed on music stands on the stage. You don't have to do that, but I do it because it sort of fills the stage a bit. They're sort of fairly large envelopes, the version that I use, and there are three people that have been selected using an interesting selection process. I won't go into what that is now, but I always do things.
Speaker 1:I don't just pick people. I don't say is now, but I, I always do things. I don't just pick people, I don't say, oh lady there, the gentleman there, oh you sir as well, I, I do some sort of criteria, I get them doing something. Um, they a simple example would be I could get them all to think of a simple geometric shape, two simple geometric shapes, one inside of the other. Okay, hands up, those who's thinking of a circle and a triangle to stand up. In other words, there's something interesting they're doing that makes them selected, all right. So there are three people that I've ended up selecting and I do a routine that is a sort of influence routine.
Speaker 1:It's framed as just chance. In other words, I'm going to offer them $100 to win If they pick the winning envelope. There's a winning message inside one of these four envelopes. If you pick the winning message, I'm going to give you $100. But I don't want to give you $100. This is my hard-earned cash. I don't want to give it away. So I'm going to actually try to influence you. I'm going to try to just use words language to prevent you from picking the correct envelope. Is that okay with you?
Speaker 1:Now, what I've addressed here is the classic sort of problem that people have with just chance. You know, it seems like a bit of a mean routine. Well, I've sort of embraced that it is a mean routine and the reason it's mean is because I don't want to give you my $100. And I'm sort of saying that's quite fun and it's tongue-in-cheek. Everyone knows it's just a game.
Speaker 1:So, basically, the first man we go through some sort of influencing process. You know the sort of pseudo-influencing process, but that's sort of quite a fun thing. You know Things like you know the envelopes are numbered. You know of quite a fun thing. You know things like you know the envelopes are numbered. You know it really is for you to choose which one of these envelopes. You know it's that type of sort of fun influencing thing. And then the first man picks an envelope and I open it up and inside it's not the winning message, but there is a message folded up on an A4 paper and it says the first man will pick this envelope. Now that gets a great reaction because there's a prediction and a reveal all in one. So that gets a round of applause. A lot of just chance routines you end up with just getting the applause at the end. So here is, you've got impact, you've got a reveal straight away.
Speaker 1:And the next person is a lady. She makes a choice, she picks her envelope. I open it up, I take out, uh, the, the sheets of paper that's inside, unfold it and it says um, you know a lady, let's say she picked number three. It says a lady would choose number three and she's the only lady in the group. So of the three people there are two men and one lady.
Speaker 1:And then the final guy. He's got two envelopes, he's got a 50-50 chance. He announces his choice. I give him a chance to swap to the other envelope or not swap to the other envelopes, up to him. And there's some sort of comedy lines that go with that which play very well. And then eventually he an envelope, let's. Let's say he had chosen an envelope and at the last minute he swaps to the other envelope. Well then, I open his original choice and it's the winner. It's, it's, he's lost, you know. In other words, if he'd stuck with the original choice, he would have won. And then, finally, we wrote the envelope that he did choose and it says a man with glasses wishes he hadn't swapped. So you've got this kicker of predicting not only what he looks like but what his action was at the end.
Speaker 1:Now what I like about this routine is it gives you applause. Through the routine. It eliminates the anti-climax of the winning message. I always thought that just chance is a little bit of an anti-climax, so we get the sort of anti-climax out of the way. It's in the third position before we go into the final reveal. And the final reveal is predicting that he would choose this envelope ultimately a man with glasses, and that he either wishes he'd swapped or hadn't swapped, you know, depending on the outcome. So it's, um, it's sort of just chance, it's sort of a chair routine. It's predicting what these people are and their actions and what they do, and no one comes up on stage and it plays for about 10 minutes. And for me this has become a must-have routine in every show really, because it's just, it creates great audience involvement. Um, and if you think now you know we've done the magic square, we've done this. We're probably about 15 minutes into the show, 15 minutes into a mind reading show, and no one has come up on stage at this point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that sounds so good, and what I particularly like there is the way that you've swapped the narrative at the end of that to create sort of an extra moment, and I think a lot about reveals in mentalism, which sounds really niche. I'm sorry guys, no, no, no, we should I mean?
Speaker 1:the reality is it's all about reveals. You know, the more you I. I do a little quick plug now. There's a friend of mine, a polish um mentalist, called radic hoffman, and radic is a great advocate of revelations and he's just written a book that is called Revelations and it's all about the different reveals. It's all about the different ways of revealing information. He's not a fan of added paper and a pen, you know he wants to create different ways of doing it. So it's all about the reveals.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I mean number one, I'll be picking up that book, I'll be ordering that straight away. So thank you. And the second point is I've noticed that a lot in your work with the narrative that you follow, it tends to I mean, most performances tend to sort of peak midway and then and then plateau at the end, but yours always go up and down and just before that big reveal there's an immediate big reveal before that one. So it's almost like you try and go for big reveal, they think that that's the end and then bang, you hit them with this second big reveal think that that's the end and then bang, you hit them with this second big reveal.
Speaker 1:Yes, I, I think um you you don't want to overuse it in an act, but I think this is um really important. The. The other thing I I'm a huge fan of is callbacks as well, um. So a callback is where something has happened earlier on um in your act and later in the act you reference what happened earlier on. So maybe a mistake happened earlier in the act and then later on something happens that rectifies the mistake that happened earlier.
Speaker 1:And I think these sort of theatrical devices make your show just feel more organic, more in the moment. You know, I think that's important. I mean you talk about I know some people, some people sort of don't like kickers or have an argument against having sort of a kicker climax or a multiple climax, and I would argue that. You know I'm in the business of generating reaction. So if I can do something and this is a game, this is Burglass Burglass. You know he's done the reveal and then he tags on two more reveals that get reaction again. So instead of just getting that one round of applause, he's getting three rounds of applause. Well, anything I can do that is going to add rounds of applause or reaction to my performance, then I'm going to try and integrate that if I can. So far we've used a piece of paper that could be on an easel on a stage, but it could be a piece of paper on a pad in a parlour situation or even in close-up.
Speaker 1:And then the four-envelope routine, the audience chair test, as you describe. It is just four envelopes, that's all it is. Now the ones I use are big, but it could be done in a small version that you were carrying in your jacket pocket. So this would be something you could do, you know, in a smaller sort of maybe a private party in a house or something like that. The second routine probably wouldn't be something I would do round tables and neither would be the magic square, because I think you need the attention span, and actually I didn't answer this earlier on.
Speaker 1:I said why the Magic Square didn't work in a corporate situation and I think it does require the audience to pay attention. On a cruise ship, they're coming just to watch you that evening. There's no other entertainment. They're all coming to see you and I think the problem is at the end of a corporate gig where there's been a lot of alcohol floating around Magic Square is a mistake. You don't want to be doing that where the audience have to think you know. So I think you know. That's the answer to that.
Speaker 3:Well, it makes me excited to see where we're going to go with number three. So where did you? What did you put in your third spot?
Speaker 1:All right. Number three is a routine that I have been doing, probably the longest of all of my routines, um, it is always with me, it is always in a set. If I'm doing it in the corporate world, if I'm doing cruise ships, if I'm working for magicians, wherever I am, I will always do this. Um, I've used it. I've used it as a middling routine that's where it normally is but I've also used it as an opener in corporate situations and for me it is worth its weight in gold, although its weight is not much, because all it is is two envelopes and a business card. So this two envelopes and a business card gives me 10 to 12 minutes of solid entertainment fun and gives me a mind-blowing, clean revelation at the end. So what I'm talking about is basically, it's, basically, uh, uh, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:History goes back to bob cassidy, uh. Bob cassidy published a routine called uh the mediums envelope, um, and from that he developed a, an effect called uh white dwarf, and this is really my version of uh white dwarf, um. Interesting, radic hoffman has a, a new version of it that he's called red dwarf, um, so you can have a look at that as well. His is a sort of under test conditions. Uh, way of performing it and, um, the way I do it is is, I know, with just those couple of envelopes and a business card in my pocket and a marker pen, I just have utter confidence. I you know it takes up no room. It does not affect the cut of my suit, by the way. I always like to have my suit done up when I'm on stage. I think it presents a better figure. It presents a better image, if you are, if your jacket is done up. The only problem with that is if you've got things in your pockets, they bulge and stick out and that affects the line of your suit. So I really don't want things in my pockets and I generally don't have a lot of material in my pockets, if I can help it. But the beauty of this particular envelope test is that it just has, it's just two envelopes. One is bigger than the other, so one is inside the other and it's a business card. It's completely flat. You just can't see it when it's in your inside breast pocket. So what is the effect? Well, the effect is, for me, the conversion of a skeptic into a believer.
Speaker 1:So this is all about having fun with the audience. I'm asking the audience, you know, hand up those who believe in genuine psychic phenomena. You know this sort of thing and it's not. Although I'm a serious performer, it's not done seriously, it's still tongue in cheek. It's fun along the way.
Speaker 1:And basically I isolate a person who is a skeptic, you know, a non-believer, and I have a way of, you know, I get him to stand up and everyone looks in because I want everyone to see what a skeptic looks like. You know this is, you know we're making a thing of it, and I get him up on stage. This is the first time someone's coming up on stage and we talk about why he's a skeptic which can be quite fun as well and I trick him into sort of saying some things and then I can sort of undermine what he's just said, which is quite fun. And again, it's difficult to describe this without it sounding, you know, it's not mean or anything like that, it is just lighthearted, it's just fun. And I even say to him, as he's coming up, I say I'm a skeptic too. So that makes two of us. So he knows we're on the same side and we do a test conditions piece of mentalism. He's going to think of any word, any word he likes in the English language. I tend to get him to think of maybe something four or five letters long, and he writes it down on a business card and he seals it inside the two envelopes, so's sort of test conditions. And then he stands on the two envelopes and I read his mind. I tell him, piece by piece, exactly what word he's thinking of. Um, now, this is the first piece of mind reading. In the show. You know, we've we've done a sort of demonstration of lightning calculation. We've done a sort of demonstration of lightning calculation. We've done a demonstration of being able to influence people. Which are four envelopes they're going to choose. And now we're going into the first piece of mind reading and that's why I love using a skeptic, because we're gonna, we are going to read his mind, we're going to tell him exactly what he's thinking. We are going to read his mind. We're going to tell him exactly what he's thinking. It proves the point, you know, it proves the point exactly.
Speaker 1:There's also something that happens during this that has been a staple of my act ever since I really discovered it, and that is I teach the audience how I want them to react. So, as I'm forming the routine. The guy's thinking of a word and let's say, you know, I've already read his mind, I know what the word is, but I'm going to reveal it as dramatically as possible. So I will go along the line of you know, I would reveal the first letter, for example. All right, and I've shown the audience what the first letter is, I get him to announce what the first letter is and normally there is a spattering of applause. And the reason there's a spattering of applause is because actually the audience is quite impressed by what they've just seen and they sort of sometimes forget to react to it. So I push on that. I say, look, you know, judging from your action, I was expecting more.
Speaker 1:I work on American cruise ships, I'm expecting an American reaction. And I sort of teach the audience to cheer and whoop and shout when I do something. And so by the end of this routine, when we reveal the word, the audience is cheering and whooping and shouting. And I get the guy at the end of this routine, when we reveal the word, the audience is cheering and whooping and shouting, and I get the guy at the end to raise his hands and shout at the top of his voice. I'm a believer, you know that type of thing.
Speaker 1:So it's fun, it's engaging, it is a really strong piece of mentalism. But, more importantly, it teaches them how I want them to react and I use a callback to call back to that later on in the show. When we get to the climax of the show I call back to that to reinforce that reaction. So we're guaranteed to get a strong reaction at the end of the show. So for me that is a must-have. I just don't go anywhere without that routine and, as I said, I've used it as an opener, I've used it in a short spot. You know if I'm doing a spot, just, you know, one item as part of a longer show maybe it's a farewell show and I'm just doing you know me just doing 10 minutes. That would be the routine that I would do and for me it's phenomenal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember seeing this in your Penguin lecture and I think you called it challenge mind reading. Now my question is and I don't want to give anything away about what's coming up, but you mentioned that you have them write a word down, and this is one of those methods which would allow you to reveal anything essentially. So is there a reason that you don't go for a personal piece of information, like a past love and stuff like that? Is that something that's going to come later? So you're building your reveals up to that?
Speaker 1:that's exactly. It's what we mentioned earlier. It's this sense of escalation. So he's thinking of and it's not any word I I put restrictions on it. I actually say I want you to think of a word in the english language. We'll make it a simple word four letters, five letters, five letters long, something like that, a word that everyone's going to recognize.
Speaker 1:Now, this is two things. First of all, I don't want to fail at this point. I don't want someone to write something down and I don't know what it is, some long-winded technical term that I'm not familiar with. That's no good. So actually restricting it to just four or five letters, making it a simple word, for me that's great and it's still impressive. You know this is and I also say things along the lines of you know well, sometimes you know when people are standing where you are, they're influenced by what they're seeing.
Speaker 1:So they write down a word like lights or chairs, or people or stage. So don't write anything down like that, because that's come from experience. You know the number of times I've been on a cruise ship and somebody wrote down ship. Well, that's that's. You know, that's not very appealing. What I want them to write down is a word. You write down the word apple, might write down things like pizza, or they might write down things that have been, maybe in the port. So there's still an element of believability and the process that's going on here.
Speaker 1:We didn't talk much about the process, but this is a 10-minute routine. I mean, if you get someone to write a word down inside see inside two envelopes that is done in what a minute. This is a 10 minute routine. So it's all about the reveal and the conditions of the reveal. And because I've built it up, you know I and let's address something here because I know a lot of magicians worry about getting someone to write something down you know, if you're a mind reader, why are they writing it down? You know this is how the argument goes. Well, all of that is covered in this routine.
Speaker 1:I say you're a skeptic, so I'm going to get you to write it down, for two reasons. The first reason physically. Writing it impresses upon your mind. It becomes a stronger thought in your head. The act of writing it implants it in your mind much more firmly than just thinking about it. And secondly, you are a skeptic, so you cannot change your mind. So this is all done. It makes sense that that's why he's writing it down and it's a very clean routine. It's. You know. There is the actual method, as I'm sure you're aware, is there is a second or two and the method's all over.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's such a lovely routine and what I'm enjoying about this episode so far and regular listeners will remember Bill Abbott's episode where I said it almost felt like we were watching his show, even though this is a podcast it really felt like we were going through his entire show and watching that. That's what I feel like here. I almost feel like I'm in the audience watching your show, understanding the, the process and how you've gone about everything. So I'm really excited to see where this is going to go. So what did you put in your fourth spot?
Speaker 1:So my fourth spot, we come to David Berglaas. So with David Berglaas I have been a lifelong massive fan of David. He was my magical dad, my mentor, inspiration, and I've always loved his material. I've always loved his style. We haven't seen eye to eye on some of the sort of effects that I've sort of described to him over the years. He would do it one way, I might do it somewhere else, and that was fine. It was like you know well, david Berglo. He would do it one way, I might do it somewhere else, and that was fine. It was like you know well, david Berglois would do it like that. But Mark Paul might do it like this, and he sort of understood that. I think he sort of respected that. But what I did is I took espicology. This is a classic David Berglois routine. It's in the Mind Myth of david burglars. Um, he also put it out earlier as a set of lecture notes. So, um, you know, those are sometimes floating around on the internet if you see them. But espicology, so that's esp ecology. So it's like escapology, um, but it's not, it's esp ecology. And he came up with that title because he's got so many outs in the routine, his sort of argument with it.
Speaker 1:Now, I used to love watching Burglars and this was one of my favorite routines. It's a full-on, fill the stage, six people up on stage. You know, loads of things happen, multiple reveals, multi-phase routine, um, and strong, strong, strong. But there were elements of it that certainly did not suit me, um. So what happened was that I started with the original uh burglars routine and over the years things happened to it. It got, for example, straight away, pretty much third or fourth performance, it got cut down from six people on stage to five people on stage. Um, when I say five people, there's there's a lineup of six people plus a woman at the side, and in my version it's a lineup of five people plus a woman at the side. So when I say it's the sort of lineup that I'm talking of, and what happens in this routine is it's all about making choices. It's all about decisions and how we make decisions and how the media and corporations can affect how you make decisions. So this has a great hook. This is, you know, it is a very good hook.
Speaker 1:And again, there is something in this routine that is exquisitely David Berglaas's that I will never remove. It will never, ever be removed because it's so intrinsic to the routine, and what it is is David Berglaas's method for getting five or six people up on stage. I mean this really is worth its weight in gold to any sort of working performer, because this can be a problem. If you approach that first person, you know to get them up on stage. If they say no, you're dead in the water. I mean, this can be really quite tough, and the way he does it is this, and I do exactly the same thing every single show, and this has never failed, ever. So the way it works is this you tell the audience what you're about to do. So you say in a moment I'm going to ask five people, five men, to make the decision to come and join me on stage. All right, so not just yet, but in a moment. So you've already pre-warned them.
Speaker 1:The second stage of doing it is you compliment the five men. You say these five men are very good at making decisions. They're the type of men that generally maybe have owned their own business. They've certainly been in charge of other people. They know their own mind. They're not easily influenced by the media or the television or what they hear on the radio. They make their own decisions about stuff they generally don't do as their wife's telling them, because and you know who you are, because your wife is digging you in the ribs now so you've given a little compliment, a little boost. These are important men, men that are in charge of people, have their own businesses. And then the third stage is a clear call to action. So for me it's a clap, and now I want my five gentlemen to come and join me on stage. And what you have, you see, because that process has gone through over the course of, say, a minute or so, you've pre-warned them, you've complimented them. The men that do come up, they want to be seen, they're important men, they're quite happy to be on display and that has never failed.
Speaker 1:It is a beautiful way of getting people up on stage. There is one slight disadvantage you are not choosing the people. They are self-selecting. So it is possible that you know if you've got someone who's maybe a little bit tipsy and thinks, yeah, I'll go up, you could end up with someone like that. But generally what happens is you have more people coming up than you actually require. So if any of them are looking a little bit dodgy on the way, you can eliminate them and take someone else instead. But this doesn't require you to leave the stage and it fits in beautifully with the routine because it's all about making decisions. So you know, I'm not going to pick you. I'm going to ask you to make the decision to join me. Queue. I'm going to ask you to make the decision to join me. So for me, you know, that is totally David Bergloff and it's just genius. I've never seen anyone else use it and I think it is the only way to get a large group of people up on stage.
Speaker 1:So you've got these five men up on stage. As soon as they come up, they make another decision. They decide where they're going to stand on the stage. There are numbered cards and numbered positions. They stand wherever they like. There are some envelopes that get shuffled up and they get dissed out to the five men. And then a lady comes up. She's given some colored cards, she mixes those up as well, and she's going to make two decisions. One is going to be a conscious decision, one is going to be a subconscious decision. So she chooses a man and there's some lovely burglars lines that come out of that. You know, I say things like. You know, don't worry, it's not for life, you don't even have to take him back to your cabin. I mean, that is straight from burglars Burglars. It's written up in the books and those are the lines he used and I use them and think of him every time I do. And they're funny lines, you know they're, they're just lovely and um, and basically it's a series of coincidences.
Speaker 1:She, uh, chooses a color, she chooses a man, the color she's chosen. When the guy opens his envelope, it matches the color that of card that's in his envelope. And then I talk about my daughter and what her favorite color is. And can the lady find my daughter's favorite color? I've put a big X on my daughter's favorite colored card and she picks another man. We open that envelope and it's got a big X on it. So she's found my daughter's favorite colored card. She's been mixing the cards, we've been mixing the men and, uh, eventually they all take their cards out and the card she has is in the same order of color, wise, as the men. Uh, she's dismissed and goes back. That's a huge round of applause, great reaction. But before the men go back, they pick up their numbered cards and the number cards all also match where they've stood as well.
Speaker 1:So multi-phases, multiple predictions, and it departs from the original burglars version in a very crucial way. I simply always thought that the, the revelation of burglars, ends with a sort of downbeat moment. He sort of sits on stage and says so how did I know all of this was going to happen? Well, I sat down in my dressing room and I thought she's going to pick position number three and she's going to pick the color green and he takes out one final envelope, opens that up and it shows position three and green. So it's. But for me it was like a sort of a downbeat reveal. I wanted that upbeat of the end. So I just simply finish it and what I've done is I've moved a reveal in the x on the card. That's something burglars didn't do. So it it's.
Speaker 1:It's a routine, it's a, a second choice in there, that's a one in five choice, but she amazingly gets it right again before you go into the five matching the five. But for me that's an audience filler. It's lots of audience participation. Sorry, a stage filler, lots of audience participation. It's a 12 minute routine and uh. It's in most of my shows, not every show. Um, it's now in my second uh show on cruise ships, so, but it was something that used to be in my number one show all the time and, um, yeah, just a a lot of audience participation and fun. And just to point out, although I'm describing my act, what we've actually done here is we've meshed two acts together slightly. So, for example, I actually won't be doing espicology and the, let's say, the audience chair test in the same show, not generally speaking. Sometimes I might, but generally they're sort of quite similar effects. They feel very different, but in essence it's their prediction effects. They're predicting where people are standing and what people are doing.
Speaker 3:I think it's really interesting as well, thinking about you just mentioned that you may not do these in tandem in this specific order in this specific show, but that routine is designed to sort of get people comfortable coming onto stage and I think that's so clever. But it's also the idea that you've put that trick four tricks in or several routines in, so it's almost like they've gotten used to you and your persona and how you are on stage and that you're professional, that you can control the situation, that they feel comfortable with you as a performer, and only then are you allowing them to come onto the stage when they know that they can be comfortable with you in that situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this wouldn't work as an opening routine at all. You know that, that sort of burglars strategy one, if you try to use that like 30 seconds after you've walked out, that's not going to work. Yeah, you, you're absolutely right. I've already established myself. I've established my persona. You know, there's nothing threatening. It's it and it is just fun. We have a bit of fun along the way. There's nothing embarrassing that's going to happen, as it were, and they've already seen that from the previous routine. Yes, there's been a bit of fun, but nothing that people would not want to join in on not want to join in on.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that's another really great choice, and there's videos of that online and I believe you've taught that in one of your lectures as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's in the same Penguin. It's in the Penguin Live Act, which is on the. It's got the skeptic word test as well, the challenge mind reading routine where I turn the sceptic into a believer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I really urge people to go and check both of your Penguin Lives out, because they're both just phenomenal and, of course, your academy as well, which I still think it's our best selling academy.
Speaker 1:I can't believe how long that was. I mean that's like, it's like nine hours of material. I mean that's unbelievable.
Speaker 3:I mean you know, no wonder I haven't got anything left to talk about, I think it's interesting, though, that I'm sure I'm not the only one in this, but I've digested that from end to end several times through, because it was just such a masterclass. I mean, specifically the billet section was just one of the best, and of course we've had other billet courses come out with other people now, but I still think that that is the best resource for a modern approach to billet work. I think it's just a phenomenal resource and everyone should check it out.
Speaker 1:I absolutely adore bullets. I've I've always loved them. Um, I have nothing against some of these uh, modern, uh, let's say, um, I don't want to use the sort of e-word, but you know the type of thing I'm talking about. You know those sort of modern ways of achieving these sort of effects. I have nothing against those sort of methods. They're perfectly legitimate and fine. I just feel I'm cheating when I use them. I actually like the sort of rawness of having just three bits of paper and three pencils in your pocket and being able to deliver mind reading. That's impactful and, you know, incredible at the same time. So yeah, it's just personal preference, but I'm old school. If you give me a choice, I would rather go with the nuts and bolts bits of paper, pencils method but that does bring us to number five.
Speaker 3:So what did you put in your fifth spot?
Speaker 1:why you must be a mind reader, because it is a billet routine. This is again something that I have. Now I'm trying to think if it's published or not. Um, I'm trying to think I think it might. I'm I'm sure it's on the Alakazam Academy, because it's sort of fairly standard. There's nothing sort of uniquely me in it, but this was and is still is a closer for me sometimes.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it can be thrown into the middle of a show. It can be part of a small set. So, for example, if I'm doing 20 minutes, I would do the sort of skeptic converting routine and then I would do this two-bullet routine. And if anyone saw me perform at the Magic Circle Christmas show not this year but last year, I think, or a couple of years ago that was my set. Christmas show, not this year but last year, I think, or a couple of years ago, that was my set. It was a 25-minute set which was a couple of envelopes in my pockets and two folded index cards in my jacket pocket and that was 25 minutes. Because what this is? Two-bullet test, huge fan of this.
Speaker 1:It started as Bob Cassidy's name and place, but the method changed. I really didn't sort of like the method that Cassidy originally had. It felt a bit clunky. It also required you in his original routine to burn a billet, to burn a folded piece of paper, and that wasn't really something we would be doing on a cruise ship or something like that. So, again, it wasn't ever sort of something that was ever considered. So I immediately changed the method and substituted another method that I knew that would achieve essentially the same result and what I had inadvertently done. I had recreated Bruce Bernstein's original routine that Bob Cassidy based name and place on. So I'd sort of solved a problem and at the same time actually reinvented Bernstein's routine.
Speaker 1:Essentially, what this does is a way it's two bullets. They write down two pieces of information. We're getting on late in the show so we're probably going to get time to do one of these. So one of these pieces of information is torn up and got rid of and we're left with the one that I've never touched, that the spectator's been told in the told time and that's the one we're going to work with and that's what we do work with. We work with that folded piece of card and we find out who it belongs to. We reveal the information that the person is thinking of and it's confirmed and it's all checked and that is correct. However, the other person is a little bit disappointed. So very quickly, I quickly read the mind of the second person as well. Now, for me that's what that routine is all about, and this came from a discussion with Andy Nyman, again 30 years ago Now.
Speaker 1:For those that are listening this, obviously you know we're tearing up an index card, so you probably have a good idea about what that is. If you want a clue, the initial C and T should give it to you. And the problem is is why are you tearing up? What's the justification? I mean, a lot of times you know there isn't justification. We just sort of tear it up and burn it. You know they've written something down and you tear it up and then you burn it or something along those lines. And it was Andy that suggested to me that this is a time thing, that there is some sort of time constraint going on. And I have to say, ever since he mentioned that to me, that clicked, it absolutely clicked with me and I've been doing it that way ever since and, as I said, that's like 25 years ago or whatever. And it's perfect because it's sort sort of, especially if it's a closing routine, and this probably would be my closing routine if I was doing a corporate set. It's a shorter corporate set.
Speaker 1:I would probably close with this because I will be dealing with two pieces of personal information. If I'm using it in the middle of the show, it's not personal information we might be doing. It might be personal information, but something like a PIN number, for example. So it's personal information, but it's not it's numbers. So it's not it's personal, but impersonal at the same time, whereas if it's someone's name, that is personal and personal. It's like. You see what I mean. Does that make sense? Personal and personal. It's like you see what I mean. Does that make sense? Personal and personal. I think you understand what I'm saying. So, um, so it's a very flexible routine and for me this is just two two index cards in my pocket, with two, you know, two pens, two pencils, whatever, um, and again it's 10 minutes, um, so uh, and with that justification it makes it almost test conditions, because what happens is is that I'm really sorry, we're running out of time. I'm going to get rid of one of them. I just tell you which one do you want me to get rid of? Great, I'll get rid of it. It's gone. The one you're holding on to, I've never touched it and I won't touch it. I'm going to come near it, I won't touch it and let's see if we can find out who it belongs to.
Speaker 1:And you go into the reveals and then what you have is this lovely encore moment where suddenly it's like you're really disappointed. We've got maybe a minute left on the show. I'm going to very quickly try and do you as well and you quickly, and it ramps up as well. The speed ramps up. So the first reveal is more slow, it's not as long a reveal as, say, the challenge mind reading with the skeptic. It's done as a. You know it's quicker than that. But the second reveal is is super fast. It literally is they're thinking about all right, concentrate on this. Uh, you know, and bam.
Speaker 1:And it's at that point, just before I reveal it, that I do the callback. I'll say if I've written down this, uh, you know, um, sarah's name from when? You know that I've written down, written down Sarah's first brush when she was 10 years old. Would that be amazing? Would it be so amazing that you would stand, cheer and shout like Americans? So this is the callback to the skeptic word test and what that enables. I've added one word. I've added stand into that as well. Enables I've added one word. I've added stand into that as well. You know, I've used this phrase of you know, will you all cheer, shout, whoop like americans, but I've added I had in the end, I had in will you all stand, cheer, whoop, shout like americans.
Speaker 1:And what it does is it tries to instigate standing ovation. You know I'm essentially asking for it, but I don't have a problem with that at all. Um, you know, I it, because what I'm just doing is utterly impossible. We, there is no bill at this point. This is gone. This went ages ago, it's went 10 minutes ago.
Speaker 1:She's in the middle of the audience. She doesn't come up on stage. I quickly just right, yeah, just think about this name, I'll try and get it from you and I reveal this highly personal piece of information. With her in the middle of the audience, it's impossible and she will react because you know there's no. You know PS work. You know if you know what I'm talking about there.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's nothing, it's all just done in the moment and it seems spontaneous. And it seems like spontaneous mind reading happening at distance, with somebody on the middle of the room, so it is utterly impossible. So, again, that sense of escalation is there and so, actually, you do get a standing ovation, or you can get a standing ovation off the back of it. Um, I won't say that I get it every single time, but I get it probably most of the time, um, and that's what I'm sort of trying to do, that's what I'm there to do, to sort of create that reaction. So for me, um, the two envelopes that I keep in my breast pocket and the two folded index cards that I keep in my side pockets, that is the core of every act that I do. That's 20 to 25 minutes of strong, impactful mentalism with nothing but some bits of paper.
Speaker 3:I think on the podcast we spoke before about this idea of like your mental toolbox so you may have a, a magic case full of incredible props that allow you to do this, that and the other. But if that was to be lost and gone tomorrow which hopefully doesn't happen to anyone, um, but if it was gone, then what do you have in your mental toolbox which will see you through a gig or, you know, getting?
Speaker 1:those, those core routines. I mean, you see, magic square, that's knowledge. I mean, I, I have memorized the magic square, I know a magic square so I can reel it off super quick. And just recently I did see on the internet somebody was advertising a gizmo. All right, um, that will do that all for you and send the information to you in a special way. And you know, I'm like, really, why not just memorize a magic square and then you have that knowledge for life? You can generate a magic square any time, any place. And for me, I have collected a whole host of routines that require nothing, no props, their knowledge, and magic square is one of them.
Speaker 1:My other routine, um, that I do all the time I'm summing up. That is uh, and, and summing up is not on this list. Okay, interestingly enough, it could have been, but up is not on this list. Okay, interestingly enough, it could have been, but it's not on this list. Summing up is a very flexible routine, number routine, where you sort of have a prediction ending, you've predicted the numbers, and then it has a kicker because the numbers mean something in some form or other. That's just knowledge. I mean, I can, I don't even need that. There's a little website that will generate the numbers for you. But I don't need to do that. I do it normally, mentally myself, because I enjoy sort of creating the matrix. So I do that. That's just knowledge.
Speaker 1:I have a routine which is called the human equation, which involves nine people getting up on stage and they're all numbered. They're just given a number verbally and they mix themselves up into a different order and I predict the total of the numbers that get chosen. So those three routines, they're all routines that can be done with nothing. They are just knowledge in your head. Now, the two core routines we've talked about here the skeptic um, the challenge skeptic test, and the, the two billet routine well, they require just some business cards and envelopes or index cards, you know. So I could even, you know, find those bits of card or go down to reception, borrow a couple of business cards and we're off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that the whole set so far really you could land in another country, go to a local stationer's and you could build an entire act.
Speaker 1:But is there a stationer's on this desert island. That's the thing.
Speaker 3:Well, it depends which one we can have a staples for our american friends and maybe a rhymans for our uk friends. There you go, uh, but it does lead us on to number six. So what was in your sixth spot?
Speaker 1:um, okay, I've, I've put in this probably would, where I would have put summing up. Um, but summing up sort of become it's not even mine anymore, it's like everyone does it, it's like it's out there. It's like just this morning I had someone text me saying oh, I've lost the link to the website. Can you give it to me? I do it all the time I've got a gig. After now I need to generate the numbers. So in number six position is a card memory demonstration. So this is memorizing cards from a shuffled deck of cards and this has become my sort of opener for my second show and that's where summing up would normally go as the opener in the second show. But summing up has sort of moved to the side at the moment. I will probably come back to it, I will probably do more with it. It's just I have other number routines in my show at the moment. So I've done summing up for years. And there is also something else that facilitated this and that is that flip charts are becoming less and less available on cruise ships. They're sort of moving to smart screens and things like that. So, um, the flip chart that I would normally use to do something up on stage sometimes isn't readily available and that's one of the reasons why it's sort of sidelined. So what we're going to do is we're going to do a card memory demonstration, and I love this. I love memorizing a deck of cards. I think it fits into that category. Once again, this has become the opener. So if you think my second set, this is the opener.
Speaker 1:This is displaying a skill that is believable and achievable with the right practice. That's what I like in a good opening routine. I don't want to jump feet first in with the mind reading. I want to do a display of mental prowess and I've done that with the lightning calculation in show one with the magic square, and that's what I do here with this card memory demonstration. And I only memorize 13 cards. I memorize quarter of the deck, so it's quite a fast demonstration. Um, it's, it's methodology comes primarily from Ross Johnson. Ross, it's the same routine that Ross Johnson does which is published on his Penguin Live Act. But the problem is is he does it as a mind reading demonstration. So it's not a problem, but I didn't want it as a mind reading demonstration, so for me it is literally a memory demonstration.
Speaker 1:It's, um, it's a deck of cards, no preparation. The cards get shuffled by the audience. Um, 13 cards get counted off. They're fanned out by someone on stage and they flash those 13 cards to me. They literally sort of um for just one or two seconds and I try and take a mental snapshot of the cards they've they've shown me and I reel off those cards in classic burglars fashion because it's all about the reveal.
Speaker 1:You know, the first few cards I get I talk about, it's obvious. The card on the front was this that was an easy one, the picture card stand up. So I saw that one and that one. They're gone, that's fine. And then it's a little bit harder now because we've now got just spot cards to the left. It's this, you know, it becomes tougher as you're going along, with a sort of real struggle on the last card, as if I really don't think I'm going to get it, type thing. And then suddenly it just occurs to me what it is and we get the final card, as it were. So having the cards flash to me is the big change. Ross Johnson doesn't do that, it's the cards. The guy stands behind him, all the cards are mixed up, they're shuffled. He stands behind him, ross doesn't turn around and does the reveal. So it's purely mind reading, um, having those cards flash to me.
Speaker 1:And I I talk about harry lorraine. This is, you know, I talk about being 10 years old. I talk about being given a book, um, that changed my life. It was called how to develop a Superpower Memory, by a New York memory expert called Harry Lorraine. And I talk about Harry Lorraine, I talk about his memory techniques, I explain the idea of association and I explain the idea of sort of chunking information together. So this is all part of the presentation. So this becomes a, you know, a 10 minute demonstration again, and it works really well and what it does do is it creates a follow up and, although I'm not going to include a ninth effect here, this immediately segues into a poker face routine. So this is where you know somebody's going to pick a card from the pack and you know I'm going to ask them things about the card. They're going to keep a poker face, you know, and this is great. It segues into that, but it doesn't always have to segue into that. I have used it and do use it, just as the memory demonstration.
Speaker 3:So again, again, you mentioned that this was the lead into your second, uh, the first trick of your second show. I recall going back to talking to andy nyman and derren brown, um, and a lot of the time in their shows they start the second half of their show, um, with something that the audience can just watch and digest and almost lead them back into the performance. And at the very beginning of the show they tend to put like a game or like an interactive thing that the audience can just partake in from the audience and just enjoy. And it seems to me like this is your approach when you're building or structuring your shows you tend to start the first half of something with a demonstration that the audience can almost just digest and take in and be in awe of, as opposed to having to actively partake in what's going on. They can just digest it and enjoy it for what it is it and enjoy it for what it is.
Speaker 1:Um, paul daniels. Years ago um told me a very interesting thing and he also published it on uh, the dvd set that lewis dematos put out, and that is you want to try and create shapes on stage. Now, by that, um, he means different patterns, so so, for example, when Paul Daniels is doing the chopper cup, he is center stage but he's talking to two people in the audience, one on either side, so it becomes a triangle. And then the next routine is he gets two people up and they're on either side of him, so it's this rectangle. When he was doing the six-card repeat or five-card repeat, he's actually moving along the stage, so it's this rectangle. When he was doing the six card repeat or five card repeat, he's actually moving along the stage. So he's a line. He would go from one side of the stage to the other side of the stage and I thought this was genius. I thought this was actually really good, and if you're ever constructing a mentalism show, it's something worth having in the back of your mind, because a mentalism show can look very samey, you know it can be. Someone comes up, they go back. Someone else comes up, they go back and you want to avoid that. You want different patterns and different shapes. And here's the golden rule you never repeat a shape in the show. So you know, if you're getting four people up on stage, you don't do another routine where four people come up on stage. You know, if you're doing a routine which involves two people seated in the audience, you don't do another routine with two people seated in the audience. Do you see what I mean? So it's it's sort of interesting that you brought that up. Do you see what I mean? So it's it's sort of interesting that you brought that up. It wasn't something I was thinking about talking about, but that is something that runs through my shows. It's something that is that is in there. I'm not I'm not saying that I would, you know, construct specifically around different shapes, but I will make sure that all the shapes are different in the show, and I think that's important.
Speaker 1:Now there's something else you mentioned as well, which is sort of unique to cruise ship entertainers, and that's this we come out and we do our first performance and you know it goes well, and what happens is we become celebrities. Everyone on the ship knows who you are. So you become Derren Brown. The ship knows who you are. So you become derren brown. Everyone knows who you are, you're, you're famous on the ship, which means that when you start your second show, you can start it.
Speaker 1:You don't have to go out there and with guns blazing and hit them with something really hard straight away. I mean, this is a card memory demonstration we're talking about here. That takes 10 minutes to do. This is actually more slow burn and summing up is a little bit like that it's. It's a little bit more slow burn.
Speaker 1:Lots of choices are made before we get to the climax, but it works in an open position on a second show, because the audience already know what you do, they already love you, they've come back again to see you and therefore you can actually just start a show by talking to them and just chatting to them. You know, because you've already earned the time, you've already earned their respect and this is something something darren talks about in notes to a fellow traveler that that you've earned that, that respect from them. Um, and it happens as you go through the show. It's what we mentioned about earlier. I don't get people up on stage early in the show because you've got to earn their trust before you can do that, and I think the same sort of thing applies here. So sometimes my second opener is not a traditional opener.
Speaker 3:It's not that fast and furious knock them over the head with multiple reactions like magic square is it will be something a little bit more slow burn well, I think it's really interesting as well that in your because we've had card memory demonstrations on the podcast before um, namely nick muhammad um, does a fantastic version. But what I find interesting about yours and I think it goes back to your philosophy when it comes to reveals is you mentioned that you're only doing a small chunk of the deck as opposed to the full deck, which again shows a progression. That would be the card memory demonstration of you revealing a four-letter word as opposed to a piece of personal information.
Speaker 1:It's happening earlier on in the show. I want it to be a believable demonstration. You know, if I was ending the show with a card memory demonstration, it would have to be a full deck because it needs that climatic element of that. But this is an opening routine, I, you know it is. It's all about not doing too much too soon, you know, if I remember, first of all, I think it'll be a bit slow to do a whole deck of cards as an opening routine, and for me that just is completely in the wrong place. That would just jar. So yeah, 13 cards is a quarter of the deck. It seems reasonable.
Speaker 1:People can think, well, I could probably memorize five or six or seven cards. You know, good bridge players can, um, but 13 cards at a glance and remember, it's a speed thing as well. This is done in one or two seconds. So you know, it's not me studying the deck for 30 seconds or something like that, it's just a glance at the cards, right? I think I've got them, you know, and I try to sort of recall them as quickly as possible before they're sort of fading from my memory, as it were.
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Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I think that's another really great choice, and sadly, rather sadly, because I'm really enjoying going through this list leading us into the tail end of your eight. So we're on number seven. What's in your seventh spot?
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm going to put in Sneak Thief, sneak Thief, sneak Thief. It's a staple of many or four bits of paper, or four business cards or four index cards, whatever you want it to be. For me it generally is A4 or A3 pieces of card, because I'm going to do it on stage and this is 20 minutes. I mean this is insane. This is four bits of cardboard, four marker pens and it's 20 minutes of solid audience engagement and fun and interaction with multiple reveals along the way. Um, honestly, it can't be beaten.
Speaker 1:So larry betha came up with a routine originally. Um, there are variations. I mean max maven had a routine called desire. There's a bit of a debate. Which came first, I think possibly Desire was out there first, but it was certainly Larry Becker that popularized it.
Speaker 1:A neater approach. It involves just the performer standing on stage with smaller cards like, say, index cards, and the reveals happening in the audience, which is quite an interesting way of doing it, but for me it's getting four people up on stage. It's, you know, they're all thinking of something and this is off the back of one of those audience involvement pieces. I've got everyone in the audience thinking of something or doing something and the result is that we get of the people that it's worked for. I choose four people, they come up on stage and I just do it with drawings.
Speaker 1:To be honest, it's not. There's really not that much original that I've added to it, other than the laughs that I get along the way. I mean other than the sort of presentation. I do it as a lie detector routine, which many people do, and at the end you've got that solid climax of being able to reveal a nice clean drawing. Duplication, um, you know, it's just one of those routines that can't be beat really, um, like magic square, it's. It's a classic and once you find the presentation that works for you and you find the rhythm of the effect, it's something you will do for life.
Speaker 3:Well, I think if we were to do a overall top eight on this podcast, but purely of mentalism, I do think sneak thief would either be second or third at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it would as well. I mean, it's just, you know, there's part of me that sort of doesn't want to do it because everyone else is doing it. It's a bit like the magic square, but I cannot argue with how well it goes down with audiences and you know my job is to entertain and engage audiences. So you know I've got to use the routines that work, and so that's what I do. And I think there's a sort of younger generation of mentalists the people that are getting involved with all the technology that don't go to these sort of routines. And the reality is, I think they are missing out because four bits of cardboard, four bits of cardboard and four marker pens, that's insane. And listen, this has been a set many, many times for me.
Speaker 1:If you think of the challenge word test with the skeptic as an opener sneak thief put in the middle, and then the two-billet test to close, that is an act with bits of cardboard. You know we're talking. A business card, a business card, two envelopes, two folded index cards and let's say, four index cards for the you know, for the sneak thief, and that is 40 minutes. I mean that's insane, that's crazy. I can deliver a 40-minute performance with literally a few bits of paper and some pens and that is it. And I love that I can do that, because what it does, the props, are all uninteresting and unimportant.
Speaker 1:The props are not props. They're just bits of cardboard and pens. The show is about what you do with them. The show is the people that you come up on stage. The show is the reactions that you get from the people. It's a people show and that's what mentalism really is. Primarily, your props are people. It's not the latest gizmo, it's not the book that you're using in the book test. It is the people and the lower grade, the props. Then, the more focus there is on the people and the pseudo method that you're showcasing and that's what makes it so believable, I think well, the, the props become completely invisible, I think, in your, your act completely, because they're just so organic.
Speaker 3:But a note to sneak thief. We have had it mentioned a lot, but and again a second ago you mentioned that part of you feels that you shouldn't perform it because everyone is performing it. But I think what's interesting about your list, when I look over it, it's almost like a set of structures and what, what you've done with that is you've made each individual structure your own, you've made each piece your own. And sneak thief is that it's not necessarily a trick, it's a structure, it's a series of events that lead to this thing that happens. Hence why we've got, you know, um, andy nyman's mobile phone version. We've had, uh, deron brown's recent one in his last touring show. Uh, at the, at the opening of the show, which was just a phenomenal version.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's the fact that it's, it's a structure which can allow, with some imagination and some creativity, an endless supply of routines and variation I, I do a cruise line where, um, one of the spots I have to do is in their comedy club and I'm might be sandwiched between two other comedians uh, two comedians, I don't know, I certainly don't put myself in that bracket um, and I have to come out and do about 20 minutes set and I do sneak thief. But I do a slightly rude version of sneak thief and it's hilarious, um, you know, now, anyone listening probably thinks that's not me, and it's not, because what I do is I, I just organically make it happen. I make it happen and and it's great, I, I verbally, can just make it happen without it seeming to happen. It's not. You know, they would have seen my normal show. They know I'm quite serious and prim and proper and and this I'm I'm shocked that these things have happened on stage and actually that adds to the fun and the clarity of it.
Speaker 1:But I can inevitably make it happen and you can imagine what it is. I mean, I'm essentially, let's say, people are drawing pictures of cactuses. You know what a cactus looks like, it's that type of thing and then we compare how big the cactuses are and so on and so forth, and and it's just great. So it's so flexible and it's it fits in perfectly within that environment and it seems as if crazy things are happening to the prim and proper mind reader. So it actually works out really well and it's quite fun. So, yes, yeah, I mean, it's so flexible as a routine, so good it has to be on the list, really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a phenomenal trick and it's a great choice towards the end and does sadly lead us to number eight. So what did you put in your final spot?
Speaker 1:Well, I put in Q&A, Q&A, question and answers. This is the pinnacle of mentalism for a lot of mentalists the answering of thought, of questions in the audience. For me, it started as a sort of thought exercise. What I wanted was a routine where I'm going to stand on stage, just me, behind a microphone, no one comes up on stage, and I'm darting from person to person in the audience, telling them things about themselves, you know. So I'm getting the name Jim. Yeah, jim, stand up, if you, I think it's Jim Smith. Where are you? Oh, stand up, okay, and I'll tell you. And I would tell Jim Smith when he was born and I would tell him you know his car registration number and his phone number, and I would you know all of these, this sort of multiple reveals for each person. And the method I ended up deciding on was a blindfold Q&A. So for me this is a classic method and I can't describe the power that this effect has. I mean, basically, in the the space, it's the last 10 minutes of the show, maybe 15, between 10 and 15 and during that we reveal personal, intimate information, um, about maybe three or four people in the audience, and during those reveals, um, we're doing like four or five pieces of information on each person. So between 12 and 15 reveals happen in the space of that uh sort of 15 minutes. So you know a reveal is happening every couple of minutes, you know every. If there's something being taught, told or revealed, often, um, and it's just this deluge of of mind reading, um, and for me the q and a method is it makes it practical. You know there's no ps method, um, it's all done real time, and I think that's important, particularly in the environments that I work in, on cruise ships, and it was a showstopper. Sadly, it is something I've retired because of certain issues you get when you become older, you know. So, as you get older, you know you can't. You know I have to put glasses on to read people's minds, that's. You know that's an issue, but I did this probably for I don't know, 15, 20 years and it was just great.
Speaker 1:Now, recently, I have come up with a way of redoing it which is not a blindfold method. I would use the same structure that I've already done and, by the way, if you're interested in what that routine is, I published it with Vanishing Ink. It's in a masterclass with them and it is a masterclass on Q&A. It's all about that routine really. There are other routines as well, but primarily it's about that and I'm very pleased that I've now got a sealed envelope version of it that I've only just started doing and it actually plays very well and it's still got the multiple reveals. It's still got the sort of multiple.
Speaker 1:So rather than what would happen is in the original version, you know, people would write a question on a card, um, the questions would be, uh, collected up by someone in the audience, um, in a basket and the basket brought up on stage. I uh in the I've been putting my blindfold on and getting ready to do the routine. The basket comes up and I take out card, I squeeze it, fold it my hand and I would now start doing the reveals. I immediately sort of go into it and that's sort of a classic approach to the blindfold Q&A. But I was very pleased with the structure. The structure and how again it builds and how it escalates and how the audience, which seems to be real-time mind reading happening there, and then something spontaneous we end the show, I go off, I come back on and I can do an encore. I can immediately actually do someone else and do another spontaneous piece of mind reading.
Speaker 1:So the structure of it was was uh, great, and I have to say thanks to michael webber for that suggestion. Webber had the idea of doing that and, uh, we had a discussion about it and it really added an excellent moment into my show and um so um, what I've done with the sealed envelope test has the same structure, so I'm very pleased of it. It's the same thing multiple reveals, but with that same structure. But I won't say too much about it yet because I've only really just started doing it and it came out of necessity. It came out of I want to redo Q&A. I want that moment back again. But how do I achieve that moment with the limitations that I now have? So, yeah, so I would end the show or I would have my final routine would be Q&A, but I'm not sure what method I would be using.
Speaker 3:Well, there's so many methods for Q&A now and I mean they're all roughly based around the same concepts. Oh, yes, absolutely. That is true. Yeah, but I think with yours, when I watched your masterclass, I think that, again, it's the structure, and I know Looch touches on this with his Q&A project as well. It is almost like, again, a set of structures that you can.
Speaker 1:Well, that, yeah, that frameworks project. I talked about a lot with Looch during lockdown about that routine, and a lot of you know what got added to his emergency Q&A, because that's what it started out with was from those discussions really, I mean, the idea of the box really, you know, was something we came up with, the idea of sort of adding in certain elements so that you are able to sort of know in advance what people are thinking of. That sort of element sort of came in as well, what people are thinking of, um, that sort of element sort of came in as well. Um, so, yeah, I for me, I think that's what q a has always lacked and I think that is why a lot of performers don't do it, because in a lot of the books it literally is okay, here's the method and it is literally a basic, simple method. Well, we won't go into the methods, but it, but it. It could be something very simple and the problem is is right, but how do we make this entertaining? It's all about the reveals. How are we revealing the information?
Speaker 1:And I think the big problem with q a is it can be incredibly repetitive. You know it, can you know it? It it's, it's just it's the same thing over and over, and over and over and over again, and it's like it mustn't be that. It has to change in pace, it has to change in density, it has to change in the style of reveal and in the perceived impossibility of the reveal. And once again we are playing on this audience sense of escalation. I think that's a really important thing to sort of take away maybe from this podcast, is it's something a lot of performers don't talk about, but it's very important because the general public do have a sense of escalation and if you tap into that, your effects become more impossible as they go along. And Q&A must do that. Q&a must do that in and of its own right. It should be doing that within the routine itself.
Speaker 3:I think one thing that I've taken away from studying Q& a is it comes under the bracket of jazz mentalism it seems to be, but people think that you have to adhere to one specific method when the truth is like you. You just said we've taken your entire show and we've referenced all the way through how you're building these reveals, and maybe to begin with you start with your magic square and then you have your four letter word mentioned and then you might have a picture and then you get to the personal information, but that won't be the most personal information. So we have that build up and Q&A is another basically show in structure but in one act.
Speaker 1:Exactly right. Exactly right, and that's how it should be treated really. So it needs to start, you know, a little bit slow and dramatic and as if it's. You know you're feeling your way along and then it elevates in pace as it goes through. It becomes more animated and more exciting as we're going along. You know you're feeling your way along and then it elevates in pace as it goes through. It becomes more animated and more exciting as we're going along, and that can be done just with your voice. You know that can be something. You can get that sense of escalation in the pace at which you're speaking as you get, you know, more excited that you're connecting with the people.
Speaker 1:You know, as we're going along, but, of course, just holding back information, just, you know, revealing something. You know what movie they're thinking of, what's their favorite movie, you know something like that. Again, it's personal information, but it's not that personal. So you maybe hold back the really personal information and, by the way, the way I've done the framing for this is it's just them writing a question. It starts as classic Q&A. I want you to write down a question that you would love to know the answer to Now, but I'm able to give them extra information. I'm able to tell them extra information as well.
Speaker 1:The audience perception is that they've just written down a question, but I'm able to delve in. The question is the starting point and once I've connected with them on the question, that enables me to connect with them and and reveal more things about them. It seems organic, it seems like it's happening spontaneously. It also seems that that nothing's written down. So there is this, this sense going on as well. So there is an element of um, would we say dr. Does that sort of make sense to people, sort of going on within the routine?
Speaker 3:Yep, I get that entirely. I'm sure everyone is on the same page, but what an amazing list. So we started with the magic square audience chair test challenge, mind reading, esp, ecology, two billet test card, memory demonstration, sneak thief and ending on a blindfold Q&A. What an incredible list of tricks that you've uh selected there, and that's pretty much my set.
Speaker 1:That's my material. As I said, there's there's a little bit of overlap with show two. There they sort of it's a bit of a mishmash of show one and show two together, um, but essentially that's um, that's all the material there.
Speaker 3:Well, it's a great, great list and does lead us on to our last items. Now, obviously, you've had eight selections of tricks, but you only get one each of the last three items. So, yeah, you are one of the first people to get this. You have a banishment so what did you banish onto your island?
Speaker 1:Okay, my banishment. I thought long and hard about this because it's actually quite that's quite tricky, but I think I will banish inconsistency, inconsistency within a performance, because I do see it sometimes. I do see it sometimes when you're presenting a certain theme or a certain idea, you have to stick to that. You can't be inconsistent. I'll give you a good example and I think this will sort of, you know, make it clear in everyone's minds. For example, I have seen performers come out with an index card and a prediction is written with a pencil on the index card and somebody has chosen in the audience who stands up and they count the change that they've got in their pocket and, amazingly, when the index card is read out by another spectator, the performer has predicted the change that was in the pocket. Brilliant effect, classic effect, great opener, fantastic. And, of course, uses a specific method, in this case an NW. All right, we all know what we're talking about. The problem is, I've then seen that performer pick up a massive a2 pad with a massive sharpie marker pen and go into another reveal and it's like well, why didn't you write the change on the pocket? Why would? Why? Why you should have done that on the big pad of paper, all right, and this came.
Speaker 1:I learned this the hard way because I it was probably 20 years ago I was doing a show with a very famous comedian called Barry Williams, whose nephew is Mark Williams, who's become a magician, and Barry Williams loved magic. Barry was a great comic, always had loads of gigs and part of what he used to do would be to sell in doing um, close-up magic, and he was one of the first performers that actually got me starting to do the stage work, you know. So he was one that would get me to do a little 10 minutes after we'd done the close up. You know, a little 10 minutes before he came and did his comedy, for example, and I did an add a number routine and Barry didn't really know how it worked. You know, he's not a magician, he loves magic, but he didn't know how it worked, and his note to me at the end was simply, do you know what you? They shouldn't write it down on a little pad of paper. What you need to do is have a big pad of paper and just get them to call out the numbers, write them down and then add it up and show everyone, and you know what he's a hundred percent right. And do you know what stimulated what came out of that thought was summing up.
Speaker 1:Summing up is exactly that. It was barry williams that, basically, with that one comment because we're you know I'm doing add a number. You know they have to write it on a pad of paper, little pad of paper, and and and barry said, well, no, that's wrong, theatrically wrong. You should be. They should just call out the numbers. You should write them down on a big flip chart. Everyone sees it. You can add up the numbers and then reveal your prediction. And that is absolutely true. And it's the theatrics of things. And sometimes the method dictates what we have to do, and that's where the inconsistency comes from. So to eliminate the inconsistency, you either have to remove the trick or you have to change the method, like I did with summing up. So summing up is essentially the same effect as add a number, but done with everything on view.
Speaker 1:So what I would like to banish is inconsistency. Think about your shows, think about your acts. Have you got inconsistency? Have you got things in there that jar with your audience? Because the problem is you might think they're not important, but the problem is that they will register with an audience because they jar, inconsistencies jar, and if you've got that moment where something's jarring with your audience, they've been jumped out of your show, they're no longer flowing along the river of your show, they're no longer in the boat, they've jumped out the boat and are in the water for a brief period of time. They're awake and something has jarred with them. They may not even know what it is, but something feels off. So inconsistencies need to be eliminated, so they're banished from all acts from now onwards well, we have banished that onto your island.
Speaker 3:But what I think is really interesting about what you said there is it almost helps your creative side, it almost gets you questioning yes because it's almost like a uh, an open restriction, if that's a thing. So you're restricting yourself by saying, well, I can't use that method, but then really, you're opening up creativity and you know it's going to be a way that you can make things a bit more original and a bit more you. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean in the close-up world. A simple example would be you know, the magician picks up a deck of cards, does a routine with it, puts that in his pocket and takes out another deck of cards and does another routine. That's an inconsistency. You need to think of a way that you can do both routines together, if that's what you want to do. You know there might be a special pack of cards and another special pack of cards that achieves the result Fine, but maybe why don't you do something in between that you know, and the deck of cards casually goes away and so it's out of action. It's that type of thing. Maybe You're right. It's problem solving, it's making things flow, and inconsistencies get in the way of that. So I think it's important to try and evaluate when there is an inconsistency.
Speaker 3:Well, that leads us on to your book. So you mentioned at the very head of the podcast that you read a lot and that you're very well read, so I'm guessing to get it down to one book must have been very difficult well, it wasn't, it wasn't.
Speaker 1:Um, I have a lot of favorite magic books. Um, I do love to read, you know, and one of the classics that almost made it to the list was was you know and a man's classic, um, practical mental effects. Although, you see, I wouldn't have practical mental effects, I would have to have all. I wouldn't have practical mental effects, I would have to have all of jinx, because there's so many things that got missed out of practical mental effects that are in the jinx. But I can't take those. No, no, it was actually quite simple. It distills down to David Berglaas.
Speaker 1:David Berglaas published two massive coffee table books. The Mind Myth and Magic of David Berglois was one of them. We've already talked about it, because that's where the espicology routine is and the rest of his act, everything is in there. I mean, you know his thoughts, his ideas, and it's a masterclass in learning how to become a legend, basically because that's what Berglois was all about. But I've actually chosen his second book.
Speaker 1:I've chosen the Burgloss effects to come with me to the island, because I've already got with me a pack of cards, because that's the pack of cards that I'm using for the 13 card memory demonstration and with that one deck of cards. What the Burgloss Effects book is is all of David's card work, and the reality is it took him a lifetime to create this work. So I know that if I take that book, it'll take me a lifetime to study it and create the effects that David was creating as well. Create the effects that David was creating as well. And I think that's why I want to take it, because I don't know how long I'm going to be on this island and I know that it will occupy me for ages. So the Burglass effects.
Speaker 3:I think that's a great choice and I think if we were playing Mark Paul Bingo, we may have put that in, and I know that you've been. We have affected by Burglass, which was your effect, which was your any card at any number. So you can see, you've really taken some of his ideas and really made them your own and really made them Mark Paulified, if that's a term I can use.
Speaker 1:That's true. I think that is very true. He was certainly my hero and, you know, a massive inspiration and a friend. I was very fortunate that when I lived in North London I was only sort of five, 10 minute car drive from where he lives, so I visited with him often and I was very pleased to see him only a few weeks before he passed away. So you know, I was very pleased to have sort of, you know, known at the time that probably that was the last time I was going to see him. So you know it was good to see him.
Speaker 1:And I think what Berglus' legacy is is this the man was all about mystery that you know that was so important and sometimes nowadays in magic it's sort of being a bit sidelined. You know, with all the stuff we see on tiktok and all the exposure and so on, it's, you know, some of the mystery is being eroded and it's a real shame because burglars was a legend, was unique in the sense that you know there was nothing. No one will ever be like him again. Um, and and when we come to the material, I mean I the the burglars effects. I you know, yes, I know the sort of parameters, the card magic and so on, but it's it really is studying these things that he's created over a lifetime and that's why you'll never get to that level, because he's just been doing it so long.
Speaker 1:And he once told me that for him, a deck of cards was the ultimate effect. You know that he could walk out on stage with a pack of cards in a box. He would throw it on the table and know that he had 20 minutes, half an hour of mind-blowing material and what was even better about it, he didn't know where it would start and he didn't know where it would end. It was, it's like the ultimate improv, um and and and the ultimate freedom. Can you imagine? I mean, that's just to me. I have the hugest respect for comedians. They're the ultimate entertainer. They stand up with nothing except their words.
Speaker 1:Well, for me that you know burglars in his deck of cards, that's, that's the closest. You know. He's just standing there with a deck of cards and it's all for him. It's his knowledge and his presentation and his ideas and his thoughts and just just flowing and going with it. You know, and in his prime there was nothing better. Honestly, you know, just fantastic seeing some of those, uh, some of those effects. I was very privileged to sort of see the card routines many, many, many times and of course he could do it anywhere. It could be in a cabaret situation, on a stage, he could do it in his dining room, anywhere, just anywhere with a deck of cards, he could deliver some mind-blowing performance material well, I think that's a great selection for your book and leads us nicely onto your non-magic item.
Speaker 3:So what did you put in your non-magic spot?
Speaker 1:Well, I've got two, and the reason I've got two is the first item I'm going to tell you you might think it's a magic item, so we have to be a bit careful here. What I'm actually going to go with, the item I have to take with me, is a Sharpie Magnum. So you know, I mean, to me that is actually the ultimate mentalist tool, because this, you know, we're all familiar with Sharpies. But a Sharpie Magnum, this is the best marker pen I've ever found. The nib is about 12 millimeters wide. Um, you can do there's a slightly depending on how you do it. You can have a six millimeter line, you can have a 12 millimeter line.
Speaker 1:This is this ties into something that bongo, ali bongo, told me years and years ago. All right, it's not about size, it is about width. All right, and that is so true because the size of the line that you draw on your pad has to be thick. It's no good having a regular sharpie and drawing it big. You know, 12 inches tall, the audience can't see it. The line has to be thick, so it has to be a sharpie magnum. Will you allow me to have that, or do you think it's a bit of a mentalist thing?
Speaker 3:no, I think I'll let you have that. I think I'll let you have that. We've had uh pens before, but I think that the point that you make there of the uh the size of the line, um, I was gonna say, do you get people to draw cactuses with those pens as well? But I didn't want to go there, um. But yeah, I think that those are the, the little things that sometimes when we first start gigging and start performing, that mean the difference between a successful show and a not, and that seems really silly. But sometimes when you perform for an audience, you feel like maybe something's not gelled and you think that maybe it's you, maybe it's something that you've done, but sometimes it really is as simple as they cannot read what you're writing, they cannot see what you're if they can't, if they can't see the reveal, then you're dead in the water.
Speaker 1:You know, it really is. And it's interesting because there are some really clever devices that have come onto the market recently that are phenomenal, I mean unbelievable, incredible, incredible technology, and it's like an A4 board and it's like, really Okay, no good to me. So, yeah, yeah, bongo for me, I mean he was the ultimate with all of this sort of knowledge and again, sadly, this has all been lost. I mean, another example of Bongo's incredible thinking was Flutter Fetty. So this is his formula for confetti. You know, I mean we. You know, you think confetti it's bits of paper, it's bits of paper that you're going to throw up in the air. Well, no, you see, ali came up with the formula that is three by one. You cut a piece of paper. Your tissue paper is three by one. Let's say it's one centimeter by three centimeters. It's a long rectangle. The reason being is it? Because it flutters in the air, it stays in the air forever, whereas if you got one centimeter by one centimeter pieces of tissue paper, they just fall to the ground. So Flutter Fetty was Bongo's idea and you know, and now it's a standard. It is a standard amongst you know, visual performers and so on, but it's that sort of knowledge that I think is so important.
Speaker 1:And just in case the listeners wanted to know what my backup item was non-magical item I'm a great Stephen King fan. I love Stephen King. I read his books. I think I've read everything and I would take with me the Stand because it's probably his best work. It's also 1,400 pages long, so that would keep me occupied as well. So that was going to be my backup. And it's also 1400 pages long, so that would keep me occupied as well. So that was going to be my backup, and it's also great for doing a book test with and if only you had a great book test that could be done anywhere, anytime so that's a great callback.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that's a great listback. Well, I think that's a great list. We've gone from the Magic Square Audience Chair Test Challenge, mind Reading, espicology, a two-billet test Card, memory Demonstration, sneak Thief, blindfold, q&a. Your Banishment is Consistency in Performance. Your Book is the Burglass Effects and your item is the Magnum Sharpie with a side of the Stand by Stephen King.
Speaker 1:What a great list and we're almost at two hours. I'm heading towards Derren territory but didn't quite make it.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, for someone who's been so instrumental in mentalism and developing these ideas, and someone who's done the cruise ships, who's done the close-up, who been around the block, so to speak, I think it's, yeah, it's great that we've got this to listen back to and to reference. So thank you so much for doing this.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much for having me and thank you for asking me to do it. It's been a pleasure and thank you for all the questions that got me thinking as well. So, yeah, bravo.
Speaker 3:Well done. Well, if people want to find out more about you, about the material that you've put out, about shows, all of that good stuff, where can they go to?
Speaker 1:Well, if you go to my website, which is markpaulcom, that's my sort of normal commercial website, you know, for bookings and so on, but there is a hidden page there. So if you can find the hidden page, you'll have to answer a couple of mentalism-related questions to access it, but the hidden page will tell you where you can get all of my products. Basically. The hidden page is then a link to all of everything that I've published, which is sort of all over the place. As I say, you can go to Vanishing Ink, there's the mask class. You can go to Penguin Magic. You can, of course, go to Alakazam Alakazam have my academy which is almost nine hours of material.
Speaker 1:It's close-up mentalism, it's close-up performance material, it's mind-reading, stand-up cabaret stuff. It's a whole section on trade shows and performing at trade shows, and the type of material is at trade shows. So, um, it's um, yeah, there's, there's projects all over the place and most recently I did a project with 19, the 1914, which is an anywhere act. Um, along the lines of what we've been talking about, being able to do an act anywhere, and it's actually an act with just index cards. So you know, there's some food for thought in there as well. But if you go to my website and you find the hidden page, all of those things are listed and there are links to them, so you can go from one page to everything else and, as someone who has digested all of that material several times over, I cannot recommend all of it enough.
Speaker 3:So really do go check them out. They are all phenomenal pieces of work. It will have you thinking for days, years on your own island at this rate.
Speaker 1:So yeah, okay, I'm going to put you on the spot. Then, jamie, I'm going to put you on the spot. What of it? What of all that material do you actually use? Do you use any of it? Is there anything you use in your shows?
Speaker 3:Yes. So, summing up, I'm afraid to say, after you mentioned that everyone does does it. I have done it since your first penguin lecture, um, when I learned about that, and I have done the espicology. I have also done, but I do a slight variation with photos which end up spelling out another decision that someone has made as well ah, cool, excellent, great.
Speaker 1:That sounds great. You've made that your own as well.
Speaker 3:Well done, yeah well you know, I think it's such that they're all such great routines, but I think what you allow magicians to do is to really take your ideas and thoughts and to make them their own.
Speaker 1:I think, you know, the one thing I've always tried to do is the stuff I publish is the stuff I do. You know, this is not I'm not creating for the sake of creating. I'm creating for myself, for different environments, um, or for different projects. And then I, you know, at some point somebody asked me to do a project and, yeah, I will then release the material or whatever. So I'm not a sort of huge fan of releasing material just for the sake of releasing the material. You know, I do gravitate towards performers, people who are releasing material that have performed it. You know that are, you know, releasing their tried and tested material. I'm all ears, I'm interested in what they have to say and their ideas and what they're sort of coming up with as well.
Speaker 3:Well, hopefully soon. Maybe we'll have the audience chair test.
Speaker 1:I know You've been asking me, haven't you? Yeah, it is in the back of my mind. Don't worry, it will happen at some point.
Speaker 3:It's when I'm ready with the material as it well, that gives us all something to look forward to, me included. But thank you again, mark, and thank you for your, your time and your generosity with all of the information and advice that you've given here my pleasure, jamie, and thank you again for asking me um.
Speaker 1:It's been a pleasure to do and thank you all for listening.
Speaker 3:Of course we're been a pleasure to do and thank you all for listening. Of course we're going to be back next week with another episode. Like I said, please do go check out all of Mark's material. It really is phenomenal and of course we do have Stranded with a Stranger. So if you want to send in your list of eight tricks, one banishment, one book and one non-magic item and send it to sales at alakazamcouk with the subject line my desert island list, please include a little bio and, of course, the reasons that you chose the tricks and we'll get one of those recorded for you. So thank you very much. This has been a phenomenal episode. I'm sure you guys have enjoyed it just as much as I have.
Speaker 2:And that leads me to say we'll see you next week for another episode of Desert Island Tricks, goodbye. You can download it from the App Store or the Google Play Store. By downloading the app, it will make your shopping experience even slicker. At Alakazam, you'll also get exclusive in-app offers and in-app live streams. So go download it now and we'll see you on the next podcast.