Mark Elsdon

Join us with today’s guest, creator and curator Mark Elsdon, who champions routines that pair ruthless clarity with stories that belong to the audience. We start where confidence meets courage: Timon Krause’s ‘Which Hand’, a method strong enough to fool Penn & Teller without ‘outs’. From there, we follow Mark’s guiding idea, call them “trips,” not “tricks”, because the goal is to shift someone’s state, not just their attention.

Mark opens the vault on eight workers that cover close-up, mentalism, and visual magic. Francis Girola’s Icebreaker turns corporate “get to know you” cards into a clean truth detector with no props to ditch. Gordon Bruce’s legendary Card Under Drink shows how structure and timing can feel like real sorcery. Optix Pro by Tobias Dostal and Henry Harrius delivers a surreal moment where a borrowed phone vanishes and reappears in the spectator’s own hands. Angelo Carbone’s On Edge quietly silences a room as a card tower holds against gravity. Tamariz’s Collective Telepathy corrals free choices into a named icon. Lloyd Barnes’ Six gives you a real-world lottery prediction you can hand out. And Michael Murray’s Between The Lines lets someone read a torn page that mirrors a scene they only imagined seconds earlier.

We also dig into language and taste. Mark banishes self-descriptive patter in favour of simple, participant-first phrasing that preserves memory and heightens mystery. His book pick, Gary Kurtz’s Unexplainable Acts, models idea-led routines with elegant construction. His non-magic essential, a laptop, powers The Metabolic Fig, his weekly curation that filters the flood of releases into five sharp recommendations and fresh hooks you can use now.

If you care about routines that work in the wild, stories that feel human, and methods that respect the spectator’s memory, this conversation is a roadmap.

Check out Mark’s - Metabolic Fig Mail-out: https://ametabolicfig.com/

Mark Elsdon’s Desert Island Tricks: 

1. Which Hand 
2. Ice Breaker
3. Card Under Drink
4. Optix Pro 
5. On Edge
6. Collective Telepathy 
7. SIX 
8. Between the Lines

Banishment. Self Descriptive Patter

Book. Unexplainable Acts

Item. Laptop

Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk

Chapters

• 0:00 The Mythic Witch Hand Method
• 2:30 Introducing Mark Elsdon
• 6:30 The Metabolic Fig Origin
• 12:00 Storytelling Over “Tricks”
• 16:30 Language Shift: Spectators To Participants
• 19:30 Desert Island Rules Explained
• 22:30 Pick 1: Timon Krause’s Witch Hand
• 29:30 Pick 2: Francis Girola’s Icebreaker
• 38:30 Pick 3: Gordon Bruce’s Card Under Drink
• 48:30 Pick 4: Optix Pro Phone Transposition
• 57:30 Pick 5: Angelo Carbone’s On Edge
• 1:04:30 Sponsor Break
• 1:06:00 Pick 6: Tamariz’s Collective Telepathy
• 1:17:30 Pick 7: Lloyd Barnes’ Six
• 1:27:00 Pick 8: Michael Murray’s Between The Lines
• 1:34:30 Honorable Mention: Limelight

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

You know, Colin Cloud said to me when we were talking about this, he said, if I'd have known, if I'd have come up with this, I'd have never mentioned it to anybody ever. And I agree. I it I wouldn't have mentioned it either. And you go, well, is it reliable? So I was having this conversation, an event in Newcastle, I think, a few years ago. And Mark Lemon was there and Pete Turner was there and a few of the guys. And Mark Lemon said, Oh, I know it, but I don't really do it. Is it's not that reliable, is it? I was went, Yeah, yeah. He went, okay, well, show me. So we just grabbed some lay people and I did it five times in a row and just hit it every time. He's like, man, I can't believe it. And it's just phenomenally good. And here's how confident Timon is with it. He went on foolers and he fooled Penantella with it. And he has a routine. You can see it's on YouTube, his foolers handling of it. But he had no outs, there's no backup. It either works or it doesn't. And he was so, so 100% confident in the method, he went on foolers with it and performed it live on you know international television.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18

We have a prolific creator with us today. Now, I've known about Mark since I was probably early teens actually, and I used to follow his work. He has a brilliant set of books called Conversation as Mentalism. He has had some incredible tricks over the years, and I also know that he's someone who is so well informed and so educated in our industry that so many people go to him for advice. If people need to know something about a trick, Mark is the person to go to. So I know this is going to be a really interesting episode. He's also just started something called the Metabolic Fig, which I know Peter told me about a little while ago, which is such a brilliant concept. First time I've heard anything like it before as well. And Mark very graciously sent over four of them for me to look through. And to say that this is something that you should get invested in is an understatement. I think it's absolutely phenomenal. I know that this is going to be a great, great list. And I, to be honest, with someone with his capacity for remembering tricks, I do not know how he's got down to eight to tricks. So I think it's going to be a very interesting episode. Of course, today's guest is the incredible Mark Elsden. Hello, Mark. Hello, Jane. How are you? Uh, very well now that you are here, and we get to uh talk about some of your favourite routines.

SPEAKER_03: 2:49

Absolutely. So I had to get it down to the top 28. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01: 2:54

If sometimes it feels like it's gonna be like that.

SPEAKER_03: 2:58

Oh man, what a that might be one of the most difficult things I've done in magic. I'm like, I could lose friends over this. It's uh there's just so much great great magic. Um, it's it's really difficult getting it down to just a you know eight things.

SPEAKER_01: 3:11

Well, that's what's kind of interesting. So I mentioned at the the head about your metabolic fig. And I think that's a really interesting concept. So the idea is that you every Sunday you send out an email newsletter, but in the newsletter you highlight the things that you've seen from not necessarily our industry, but maybe industry adjacent things, like there was one that you sent through where there was something paranormal, which I obviously very much enjoyed. You do tricks that you've liked, there are videos that you thought were interesting, there are quotes in there, there are uh podcasts that you highlight as well. It really is such a brilliant way to sort of digest, I'm guessing, your wealth of knowledge into these bite-sized chunks and giving them back to the industry.

SPEAKER_03: 4:00

Yes, um well, it it all started years ago. I used to, in my newsletters, when I was selling magic a little bit to a big news kind of email list or a medium, small size, but email list might be a better description. I used to put a thing at the end of each email called the hidden gem. And it would be something that uh um something I'd seen in print um uh or read, but but more that more often than not, it would be something I'd seen a performer do. But it had been released, it was in print, so it was always designed to promote books and reading, not to promote downloads of videos, not that there's anything wrong with those, but I just am a fan of reading and uh I do like to uh promote reading and books and so on. So then after the newsletter ended, I had some of these hidden gems, and I thought if I put together a few more, I could put out an e-book. So I put out an e-book called Hidden Gems, and I sent it to uh Gladwin and Toronto and Paul Wilson and various people and got great responses, and they kindly gave me quotes and so and it sold quite a few as an ebook and some printed booklets. Then there ended up being 10 of them. So, but that was all so uh, and there's at least a hundred in each one, so it's like a thousand things that are buried in print. Um, and then when that ended, I was like, okay, well, what can I do? I still know some other stuff, and then I'm always looking at new material. So for the last probably 20 years, I've been looking at new material constantly for shows I'm working on with people, whether it's TV projects or theater shows or private students who come to me and they've got a they want to put a together a 20-minute specific show for a venue or whatever it might be. So I know like a lot of magicians who who um get jaded and like, man, I just do my set and I'm not interested in, you know, they go to Blackpool and will they buy one pack of cards or won't they buy one this year? You know, that I'm not like that because magic's still my hobby. And so I just always got stuff and always kind of through the prism of would this be good for a show later for that I'm working on for you know, Colin or Ben or whoever it might be at the time or private students, whatever. And then I thought it's a shame I'm kind of uh getting all this information and knowledge and kind of filtering it all through kind of my 30, 25, 30 years of experience in the industry. Um, and and I like to think my taste is reasonable in in in you know performance material. So I thought, well, I wonder if I could do a thing that was current. So rather than hidden gems, which was about then, it's about the past stuff that's buried in print, hidden in print. But I do something about now, and that's when the fig was born. So a metabolic fig is it's for then. But everyone who reads it and myself we call it the fig. And so that that's what that is. That's you know, what's the cool shit I've seen this week? And that's what that's literally what the fig is.

SPEAKER_01: 6:31

Well, it's great. And I all I always remember your conversation as mentalism books as well, because I think they started out as PDFs, or they they were PDFs eventually, and certainly that's what that almost felt like to me. It's almost like a collection of really clever ideas and methods that you'd manage to uh uncover and put into these really clever routines. And some of them were like bar bet almost, like they were challenges, and some of them were just really smart, clever mentalism. But that's really what that sort of collection of tricks felt like.

SPEAKER_03: 7:06

Well, I think that the the the conversation mentalism thing was a was the beginning of my interest or a kind of another element of my interest in stories. And you know, I think magic is a performance art, isn't it is a form of storytelling. Um, but I like to have a story about about what I'm doing. So I know that really strong magic performed well always you know gets surprise and astonishment, but then it ends there. And I want to go further, I want it, I want it to, you know, have that slow burn into mystery where people don't know what happened, and no matter how long they think about it, they can't figure out what happened, and they never know what happened. That's you know, that is the definition of a mystery, isn't it? Not knowing. And so I realized that that a performance piece, uh a trip. I by the way, please forgive me. I stopped using the word tricks a little while ago. I call them trips now. We we can discuss that, um, we can discuss the madness of that later if you want uh my reasoning behind that. So I find it hard to say trick. I have to uh so I just call them trips all the time. So um, so I I realized that for a trip to have his mass is reach its potential, it had to be delivered in a bigger thing, um, some kind of story, some kind of presentation, as we call them as well, a hook. So, and very often when friends would speak to me, magician friends, they and and then and then personal friends who have seen me do quite a lot of magic over the years, they would say to me, you know, when when you're talking, I'm never sure when you're just telling me a story and what when a and when a trip has started. And I'm like, yes, that's what I want. I want it to be a natural segue from me talking about something interesting. And that's why that's what the fig is uh that that's what that's in the fig as well. So I, you know, there's a section called Premise Envy, where I say we've already got a million trips, we don't need any more, um, although I do recommend some in the fig. What we need now is great stories and premises and ideas and props and gadgets and things to talk about. So that section is very popular. People look, look, I know a lot of people who go to that first. So, you know, what's what's he talking about this week? So it could just be an interesting fact or uh some historical thing or some interesting photographs or a mystery or a puzzle. But it's just something that, you know, if you brought it out, it's a hook that um that you can then use to build a presentation of which fits it together with it with a trip, becomes a performance experience.

SPEAKER_01: 9:16

Well, we'll we'll get onto your list in a minute, I promise everyone. We'll get onto Mark's list. But um two things that you just said there. Uh, the thing about storytelling, you know, uh, I think that's what certainly Pete does really well as well. And a lot of us, certainly at Alakazam, really believe in the premise behind the trick, the the the story behind it and storytelling in general. And what's really interesting is I think when you do a really good piece of storytelling magic, it's interesting how it always engages a conversation with an audience. But that's what I think magic is about, and I think that's why I really engaged with your mentalism and your magic as well. Is that you tell really interesting hooks and stories which really elicit conversation, hence, conversation is mentalism. Yeah, and the second thing that I wanted to point out is trips. So I I agree with you. Um, I've never heard of it about uh being called trips, but I do think that there's a connotation to the word trick, which is uh maybe, you know, maybe to put someone down or to scam them, or you know, uh, I think it devalues what our magic is.

SPEAKER_03: 10:30

It's it certainly can devalue, yes. Um so funny, I I I never had that kind of thing. I know some people like, you know, being tricked means being being fooled and not in a good way. Um not in a not in an interactive entertainment way where it's creating that astonishment and mystery that you go, wow, that was a great experience. I I can't comprehend what went on, but I loved it. You know, but to be tricked is you trick someone into something. It's got that element of deception with intent and not a good intent. So but I didn't mind that for a long time. Um in fact, when I, you know, years ago I worked on a TV show with Ben Earl, and we even called the show Trick Artist, because I like the idea of mixing, you know, the fact that he's an artist with the fact he's doing tricks. And then more recently I've written quite extensively about the tricks they're archetyping. Um, you know, Bob Neal writes about it and many others. So I'm not against tricks entirely, but uh it started becoming a thing where I was working, a particular student man in the in the US with it, yeah. No matter how clever we wrote stories from in introductions to trips, some of his friends, his old people who've known him for a long time, about, oh, here's Rob, maybe he'll show us a trick. And it seemed like not as not even as much in the in the aspect of it being nasty. It was almost like a put down, like it was a slight level above a joke and a prank who he's gonna do as he's gonna do a trick for us. It was like a, you know, no matter how beautiful and artistic his presentation and gorgeous his light of hand, just a trick. So I was like thinking about how can I get away from this? And then so the word trip, so it's twofold. One, you know, when I'm performing now, I do believe that there is kind of a uh I hate the word in in all its horrible glory, that the, you know, the the um the BGT word, the AGT word, the strictly word of be people being on a journey when in fact they're you know, they they've they've changed slightly because they're on a show, maybe, but you know, that the this thing of being on a journey just because you do something interesting or uh in the public eye, I think is is ridiculous. But I do like the idea that magic is a trip in terms of it changes your experience and understanding of what is possible. But I also like the double word play that it's a it's like being on a trip. I mean, it's you know, it's it's it's a bit surreal, it's a bit spaced out, it can put you into like you know, great magic can put you into a slightly altered state where your brain goes, what the what is going on here? So I like that kind of tripping aspect of it as well. Um, but I I just I started saying it on a whim, and then I really kind of got used to saying it. And now I realize all the time when I'm saying trips, people are thinking either I'm ill um or I've gone mad. I mean, that's not true, I've always been completely mad, but uh, but so it just I just call them trips. And so much like when I years ago, I decided I didn't like the word spectator anymore, so I started using the word participant. Um, and so slowly actually a lot of magic, and I it wasn't all me, I know I'm uh not hubristic to think that, but a lot of my friends started saying it, and then you know, industry wide, it's become more popular now. People say participant, whereas 25 years ago, no one called them participants, it was all spectators. Um, I think the first thing I saw about it, John Allen had a uh uh video I think called Spectators Don't Exist, and I think he was pushing for that. And I was like, yeah, man, that's true, that's exactly right. We want it needs to be an interactive thing, not them just spectating and watching what we do, we want them to participate in what we do. So uh so for the longest time I was you know transitioning from spectator to participant, and then the last year, probably or longer, there's been tricks to trips. So, but so um when I'm writing sometimes, depending on the context, I have to concentrate because people who don't know that I do it think, oh, he's he's spelling this wrong every time. So um, but trips, tricks. So if I say trip, that's why.

SPEAKER_01: 14:05

Well, we're gonna take a literal trip to your magic island. Um, so let's get on to your list. So I did mention uh again at the the very top of the podcast that you're so incredibly knowledgeable. So, how difficult with your expansive knowledge of magic, how difficult was it getting it down to just eight?

SPEAKER_03: 14:29

Almost impossible. In fact, to be fair, I it it's not that I've got huge expansive magic. I've just been around a long time. You know, I love reading and I've got a good memory. So I I don't, you know, please don't posit me as someone who's got super knowledge or anything like that. I just read a lot of stuff and remembered it. Um so but I've I'm looking at my list here. I've got probably 25 on this list. Stuff I'm not gonna be able to mention. Um, stuff by some of my, you know, closest friends, and just I'm not gonna be able to mention brilliant stuff that I perform regularly by Ben Hart or Ben Earl or Weber or Bob Neal or Jackie McClements or Bob Austin, none of that. It all didn't make the list. It all coulda, woulda, shoulda, but sadly didn't make it. So it was really difficult, really difficult for me.

SPEAKER_01: 15:12

Well, I think that just throwing those names out means that this is gonna be a really interesting list. So let's get into it. If this is your first time listening, the idea is we're about to maroon Mark on his very own magical island. When Isaiah is allowed to take eight stricks, banish one item, take one book and one non-magic item that he uses for magic. Particulars, who's there, what's there? We do not mind this island exists in Mark's own imagination. So, Mark, let's jump on that plane. Let's go over to your island and find out what you put in position number one.

SPEAKER_03: 15:41

So uh this is position number one. Um, all of these could have been at number one. So I haven't, this isn't a top eight. This is just eight. They're all brilliant. All of them could have been at number one. So I um but nevertheless, number one is Timon Kraus's witch hand routine. So um I know I'm well known for creating tequila hustler. Uh truth is I never perform it anymore. Um, I have electronic devices here from three different manufacturers which will perform the witch hand effect with 100% certainty. I don't use any of them. I only ever use Simon Krause's witch hand. So I don't know if you know much about Timon. He's a very interesting guy, um uh poet, philosopher, musician, magician, mentalist. Um, he's proper famous in Germany as well. I mean, he was um we we forget in in in the UK and I'm sure in the US as well. We're very focused on stuff going on in our own country that we kind of don't think uh, you know, of anything outside. But I mean, uh probably five years ago, maybe maybe a little longer, maybe a little shorter, you know, Timon was famous enough to be one of the contestants on their version of Strictly. So, you know, he's a well-known person in his country. And in fact, he's got his own um, he's just uh recently started his own uh magic TV show, Medalism TV show. So he is uh he's the guy. But you know, uh Colin Cloud said to me um when we were talking about this uh thing at T1's, he said, if I'd have known um if I'd have come up with this, I'd have never mentioned it to anybody ever. And I agree. I it um I wouldn't have mentioned it either. I mean it's the witch hand thing, uh and you just get it perfectly correct every time with no electronics, no gimmicks, no nothing. Um and you go, well, is it reliable? So I was having this conversation uh at uh an event in um Newcastle, I think, a few years ago. Uh and Mark Lemon was there and Pete Turner was there and a few of the guys, and Mark Lemon said, Oh, I know it, but I don't really do it. Is it it's not that reliable, is it? I went, Yeah, yeah. He went, okay, well, show me. So we just grabbed some lay people, uh, and I did it five times in a row and just hit it every time. He's like, Man, I can't believe it. And it's not, I'm doing it brilliantly. It's a brilliant, I'm just doing what T-Mon uh teaches to do, and it's just phenomenally good. Um, and it was a book. I I think you could pick it up on the used market. Mike Murray published it, uh, MindFX. So it's draw it in full. And here's how confident T-Mon is with it. He went on Foolers, and it was a couple of seasons, or I think it's maybe 10 years ago, when Alison Krause was the host. Uh, and he fooled Penn and Teller with it. And he has a routine. You can see it's on YouTube, his foolers handling of it, but he had no outs, there's no backup, it either works or it doesn't. And if it doesn't work, you just gotta go, oh, I was wrong. But he was so so 100% confident in the method that he um he went on foolers with it to and performed it live on you know international television. So just so good.

SPEAKER_01: 18:34

Yeah, I remember reading the book of this and thinking he's done so much of the work for you when when you read that. There are so that it's the minute details in that book which really help drive forward the confidence in using that as a technique. Um it's really interesting as well that you mentioned that you use that over tequila hustler. Now, I would actually say, because I love tequila hustler, it was I remember that blew up in the industry and it really created some incredible routines. I think V by Manos as well was another version which came out shortly after. Um, but what's interesting there is I and and see what you think of this. I almost think that they're two separate effects in in some respect.

SPEAKER_03: 19:26

I agree. It it might be slightly disingenuous of me to say I don't do tequila hustler anymore. In fact, I've got a routine which combines tequila hustler and which hand. Um, in fact, a couple of years ago, Mike and I wrote a big book, Mike Murray, and I think it'll come out next year sometime. It's called the Encyclopedia of Tequila Hustler. And it's got contributions in from you know Weber and Jermaine and Joshua Quinn and uh Timon and loads of people, all using tequila hustler and tequila hustler adjacent things, uh, card routines, I think with a pendulum, just coins, blah, blah, blah. There's a ton of it. Um, and so my routine that I Do which uses which hand and the tequila user methodology is actually written up for that for that for that book. Um, and so that will come out at some time. And so, yes, I do, you know, I do. It's a bit flippant. I think I just wanted to kind of uh focus on which hand is so good. If I never did tequila usner again, I wouldn't care because I could still do uh a brilliant, fooling, astonishing witch handing. Um, but yes, you're right, there is there is space for and there's space for electronics. You know, I was talking to Colin about this uh a few years ago, and whilst he loves the witch hand thing, when he's on stage with Vegas with 3,000 people in the room or whatever his uh theatre size is, he he just wants 100% certainty. So he has the electronics. Um uh and you know, um other mentalists in our country who are very famous do the same. They just they want absolute guarantees, they haven't got to think about it. I'm not in the situation where I need to uh have that guarantee every time. I'm just doing it for some people that are private party or in whatever environment, so I'm quite willing to take the risk. But yeah, it's uh Timon's thing is fantastic. And I I I agree with Colin. I would never have shared it either. Um, but good news, Timon is uh a lot kinder than Colin and I. And so the the method is out there, it is, it exists, it's brilliant. He's a genius.

SPEAKER_01: 21:19

Well, it's great entry in at number one. So let's see where you went with number two. What's in your second position?

SPEAKER_03: 21:24

So this is another kind of mentalism piece, as that as we would call it in the industry. Although, much like other people, uh I have listened to uh I was talking early, and you said it. I don't know if you've heard any of the previous, I have listened to quite a few. Um, and I uh uh the first one I ever heard, and I I don't know how long ago it was when that was Nyman's uh Andy Nyman. Um and one of the things he said struck me, uh well, many of the things he said struck me. Uh in fact, I remember what he talked about that long schlep to um out to uh Kmart magic in Upminster. And I uh him and I went at least once, maybe twice. We did it. I was staying in London, I think I'd had a gig the night before, and um, we did that to uh so I'd I'd forgotten about that until I heard um until I heard him talking about that. Um but one of the things he mentions is he doesn't really make any distinction between magic and mentalism, and I don't either. They're the same thing to me. Uh not the only people who really disagree is mentalists, and usually mentalists who are trying to sell you a 400-pound book or something. So um that might be a little flippant, but it's generally true, I think. Uh, and you know, there's no functional definition of mentalism which isn't covered by magic at the same time. Uh it's just a what's the story you're telling? That's the only difference. But this is another what we call mentalism. It's um a guy called Francis Jurila. It's a thing called icebreaker. It's like a deck of cards that you appear to have got. I've got them here if you want to see them and do you want to can I show what they are?

SPEAKER_01: 22:44

Yes. Well, this is audio only, but I'm really interested in it. So show them to me and everyone else will be showed.

SPEAKER_03: 22:50

These these are the cards. Um, they they uh uh they look like a thing that was put together by a corporate, I don't know, a corporate company to and and he describes them in his introduction of performing it as they were, he picked them up at some corporate event he was performing at. He had these icebreaker cards that have been provided by the production company who'd set the event up just for people to meet each other and greet each other. Other times he's been to places where they had badges on, various other icebreaking techniques that are so that that that you know these companies use in social environments um at a business level. So that's they're quite you know, uh gently and um innocently introduced. So basically, there's a bunch of these cards which say a ton of things on. And so this one says, for example, can't play the harmonica, uh, I'm a vegan, have been to New York, and there's a bunch of them. In fact, I think you get about a hundred of them when you when you when you get them off, Francis. Um, I've I've got about 50 here, and I so and I love doing this. Uh, it's a real favorite of mine, and for multiple reasons. So what happens is you get someone to look through and they pick a card that they only they can see here, and then you're turned away the whole time. So you don't see anything. They can be shuffled, there's no control of the deck, and then they turn it over. And on the other side, so where this says, for example, play the harmonica, at the top there's a big list, and the top one is the same play the harmonica, then there's a bunch of other stuff. So you get them to read out any of the things off the list on the back in any order, but they must pick things that aren't true about themselves, and then somewhere in that list, they drop the thing that is true. So here they would read out uh a bunch of things. For example, uh, I'm a Pisces, can play the guitar behind my back, uh, drive a convertible, don't like video games. So things that aren't true about themselves. And somewhere in the list, they drop play the harmonica, and they can put it, you tell them you can put it top of the list, last in the list, middle of the list. You can read out three things, sendings, all the things, I don't care in any order. And then they do that, and then at the end you say, okay, um, well, that was lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. True, lie, lie, lie. You can play the harmonica. And it's 100% correct every time. And you can give a bunch, you can get them split up between four people, everyone does it. There's no slim, no slides, no gimmicks, nothing's written down. You could be out of the room. Um, I mean, you could post them in the cards and do it. So when I first saw this, oh, there's no memory work either, by the way. There's nothing to work out, nothing to remember. Uh, you don't even need to touch them. You can say this and explain what they are and give them the box. So I first saw this, um, I don't know, about 10 years ago, maybe longer. And at the end of it, I couldn't, I was like, what? So, and he just was doing it nonchalantly on any everybody. I was like, I literally have no idea how this is done. Can I have a look at those cards? He said, Yep. Um, so I said, okay. I said, I can I and I think we're having lunch. I said, Can I look at them for a little while? He said, Oh, give me them back at tea time if you want. I was like, No, don't say that. So, and I was literally looking at them. I looked at them for an hour and all the methods I could think of involving binary and think, you know, maybe things some things are made of metal and some all all of the things, you know, uh all the ways that I know the birthday book works and some of Stephen Young's bullet material works. It wasn't any of those. So at the end, I just went, nope, no idea. He said, All right, you like it then? I said, yes. Um, in fact, I liked it so much that when I lectured at Blackpool uh about a decade ago, I only sold one trip belonging to anyone else on my dealer table. That wasn't mine, and that was this. I just I've just got no end of uh uh I don't know. Again, it's another genius method. Uh Francis is super smart, um, a fabulous ballroom dancer, uh a genius, um, a brilliant translator, and a great performer. And if he'd never, if this was all he'd ever come up with, but you know, he's got a ton of other great stuff. But again, very under the radar. I think a lot, some of the things, about half the things here I've picked, aren't that well known. They're not things where people go, yeah, that thing, uh, you know. Um, and I haven't picked them just to be obscure or to or for any other reason. I've just picked material I love performing. I think all the things in this list are things I absolutely love performing. And when I think about them, I go, Matt, I wish I thought of that. That is great, that's brilliant. Um, and that's one of these, it's just so good. So good.

SPEAKER_01: 26:55

Well, I've not heard of this one, but it sounds right up my street. I think that sounds superb. And you mentioned that deck. I think what's really interesting is these sorts of decks, there's a string of them in the public eye now. And with social media, I certainly know there's something called the storyteller deck, which is, I think, for writers. Um, and I think Stephen Bartlett from another uh very famous podcast, he has some sort of business deck which is very similar to that as well. So I think these sorts of props at one time maybe maybe have been a bit odd, but I think nowadays they're so in the public eye that it's it's a perfect prop to use.

SPEAKER_03: 27:36

Yeah, uh the the the rise of you know magma as a as a kind of arts sh store selling books and toys and games and uh things. Yeah, there's stones. If you go into Waterstones, there's like a whole count, a whole counter full of these kind of interesting games, which are decks of cards about knowledge or quizzes or or whatever. Um, tons of stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 27:55

Brilliant. Well, I think that's a great one, and it's one that I'm definitely going to be searching up straight after this. Um so thank you for that. Uh but let's find out what's in number three. So, what's in your third position?

SPEAKER_03: 28:06

So, number three is by my favourite magician of all time. Uh, and that's not a well, I've got two magicians I love more than anything. We'll talk about the second one later because it's my book I'm taking. But this is um Gordon Bruce, for my money, the best magician I've ever seen. And a brilliant, brilliant man who is, for various reasons, not as well known as he should be, but nevertheless, enough people have seen his work and know his work. He he was the lead double bass player in the Scottish National Orchestra for many years, uh, but he was also a magician, uh, kind of semi-professionally as well. And and this trip of his is card under drink. No matter which version of Card Under Box you've seen, or which version of Card Under Drink you've seen, you have not seen one that is a tenth as good as it can be. Gordon, Gordon's feels like utterly, utterly impossible. Even when you know what's coming, the the way it's built, the the way it's constructed is just absolutely phenomenal. So when he was in his late teens, he was he was doing magic then, and he told me that he got a job on the docks in Glasgow. You can imagine in the 60s that was a rough place to work, right? On the docks in Glasgow. These are men who were, you know, what they would themselves consider to be a man's man, a working man, it would be quite a brutal place to work, I would think. No airs and graces. And he got a job in a bar working there solely to learn to do magic under those conditions, because he figured if he could work for, you know, brutish men in brutish conditions, living a tough life uh uh, you know, on the docks, then he could work for anyone anywhere. And this is where he first developed a card under drink. So um, and it's just phenomenally good. I mean, you you a card is picked and signed, and then suddenly it's under the box and it's on the box, and then it's then it's under you is under his glass, and then it's under his glass again, and then it's uh and it just like feels it just your head feels like it's on a string, you're just looking at all times where you you know um he wants you to look. So uh it's just my probably my favorite um my favorite card trick certainly up there. I'm gonna call it that's because that's uh Gordon said to me, I don't want you calling it a trip mark, so let's say this one's a trick, but that's fine. Um so uh and he was a brilliant, he is a brilliant man. He's still uh alive, although he doesn't perform much now. He has a macular degeneration, which is a uh hereditary condition. So he had to retire from the orchestra many years ago. Um a story about the card in the drink, though, with Gordon. So the the the the Chicago magician Hiba Habaal, who was very famous for two things the sugar cube trick. So the sugar sugar cube trip is basically back in the days when the sugar cubes, uh Hiba Habaal would get um someone to get like a pencil and draw a cross on it, and he would stamp it on his hand, and then it would kind of multiply. Then someone would find it stamped on their hand, then the back of their hand, then it'd be stamped on someone's neck, then this impression would be stamped somewhere else, and it would appear on all these people, and then ultimately he would have some lady who was present to go and have a look at the top of her leg, and sure enough, there was a stamp that you know, this cross that had been put on the sugar cube was stamped there. It was a riotous uh thing. Um, and it's kind of a very famous magic bartender uh thing. Um, I suppose Double Cross has elements of that to uh to some degree, the modern version. But the other thing he did was come up with Card and a Drink, which he used to do in performing one of the Chicago lounges. And um anyway, when Gordon Bruce got married, he married another musician from the orchestra. They went on honeymoon to Chicago because he wanted to see some magicians and hang out around that scene and everything, as well as he loved Chicago. I think him and his wife had been on a tour through there with part of the orchestra previous years, and they wanted to go back. So anyway, he met up for lunch one day with Heber Haber, and uh Heber said to him, Oh, come on, Gordon, uh, I want to do some stuff. And you know, Gordon's uh stature in magic shouldn't be uh shouldn't be lost. This is the here's the guy that Ricky J. would fly in to see, not when he was coming to the UK anyway. Ricky J. Percy Diaconis and other legendary names would fly into Britain solely to go and see Gordon. Um, when he was 19, Gordon annotated Urdnace. He did an annotated version of Urdnace, handwritten, and he sent it to Vernon. And and after many months, he thought maybe Vernon hadn't read it or wasn't interested. Vernon wrote a lengthy letter back to him saying to Gordon, if I had realized you were going to annotate this like this, I wouldn't have bothered writing revelations, which is like held up as the as the book, you know, the the the um the book for uh the the urban ace lovers bible, if you like. Um so hiba'aba al said to Gordon, can you show me a thing? And um he did quite card and a drink for him. And hibaal said, This is absolutely insane. I can't believe it. This is and Gordon thought he was just being kind to him. Anyway, they were the they were leaving on a Sunday, let's say, I don't know the exact days, but on a Saturday, there's a phone call at his hotel. It's he baal. He said, I would like you to come down to the bar and have a drink with me tonight. Gordon's well, I'll have to ask my bride, you know, it's well not honeymoon. She she's let me out once to come and see you over, you know. She came with him, but you know, we're here for uh honeymoon, not reefer. She said, I'd love it if you come down. Anyway, so he came down and he Baha Baal had organized lots of other Chicago magicians, well-known and professional and bar magicians, and got Gordon to do card and a drink, uh, card and a box, card and drink, and then he Bahabaal said, There you go, guys. This is why I won't be performing this anymore. That's how it should be done. This from the guy who invented it. You're like, wow. Wow. And he's got multiple versions as well. He's got like, he's got a linear five or six phase routine, but he's got other elements that he drops in and out sometimes. I mean, I must have seen him do it five or six times, and then the next time I saw him, there was a two new things in it I'd not seen. I was like, what the, you know, what were they? He was like, oh, just to change it up sometimes. But you can't say that now. You can yeah, you know, so uh yeah, shame it. I there are a couple of people who've got um uh the full details, the the workings of it. Uh so whether Gordon gets to release it or not while he's still with us, who knows? But um, it won't be lost for posterity. Um and every time I do it, it's it's one of those things that I would every time I do it, of course, every magician's uh got confidence in their performance. And of course, most of us are, you know, as on some level, when the adrenaline's flowing in a performance and people are loving it, you become some raging ego of of success and brilliance in your own mind temporarily. The dopamine's flowing, uh, adrenaline's flowing. But every time I do that, I go, yeah, well, it's another four out of ten compared to Gordon's. It's one of those, no matter how well I do it, and no one spots the loads ever. I mean, I'm very well known uh amongst certain personal friends of mine that redefted to do magic. I mean, I performed the Cardinal Drinking bars in Dublin and stopped the band playing. It was that much of a pandemonium me doing it. But even in that circumstance, I'm like, yeah, this might have been a five out of ten, but it was no Gordon. Um, you know, Gordon performance is that good.

SPEAKER_01: 35:02

Are there any videos of him performing it?

SPEAKER_03: 35:06

Now, secret, secret that hardly anyone knows about. Yes. Um, International Magic did a video with him back in the day. Uh, and that is available as a DVD or maybe a download, I suppose. Um, and he does the bones, he he does a four or five phase version of the card and the drink on that, um, on the international video. Um, I would say uh that I mean there is so much more going on when you see him do it live and went blah blah blah. But you know, yes, you can see him do it. And yes, you know, people were fooled in the room, and yes, it's uh it's there, the the the all the basis of it. I mean, I've seen lots of other great performers do it, um, but every time I see it, I just I've been lucky enough to see Gordon perform that particular trip a bunch of times in various circumstances with different people, magicians, laymen, personal friends of his, personal friends of mine. And so that's why it's kind of gone up the you know, up the ranks, um uh just beyond everyone else's handlings. But nevertheless, yes, it can be found on that international uh DVD.

SPEAKER_01: 36:11

Amazing. Well, that is the first non-mentalism, even though we're not distinguishing between magic and mentalism. Um this is the first sort of more traditional trick. So let's see where you went with number four.

SPEAKER_03: 36:26

Well, this is uh kind of traditional trick, and from you know, from uh mentalism and then from you know Gordon's routine developed in the 70s uh to something that came out this year. Uh, and this was a difficult thing, of course, because I'm looking at new material all the time for the fig. And and I think I honestly believe we live in a golden age of magic creativity. There are so many brilliant creators, and finally the technology is to create stuff properly, you know, Yamaranda stuff and various other people look at Philicetti with electronics. They are just state of the art. They are probably the gadgets, you know, the layman thought we had 25, 30 years ago, which we didn't. We were still messing around with rubber bands and paper clips and stuff like that. But now that you know, the tech is and then the way that magic is sold and presented, the way it's boxed, it feels like an Apple product, and the videos are shot on, you know, red cameras and stuff, everything is great. So uh it it I probably could have picked eight weight trips that came out this year for this list if I really wanted to. And in fact, in the fig, next week it's the top, the top 52 um trips of the year for me. So uh, but this is a thing that I love, and I perform this uh probably as much as anything. It's Tobias Dostel and Henry Harrius' Optics Pro. I I when I first saw it, I nearly I just my eyes were out of socks. I'm like, how can that be possible? I just this you know it's so good, it nearly needs to be a stooge for that for the for it to be a thing that exists. But I honestly think it's one of the greatest pieces of close-up magic ever devised, ever devised. It's insane. For anyone who doesn't know, you ask to borrow a participant's phone, you turn the flashlight on, and you hold it clearly in your hands, then you take out your phone and give it just and you turn it on, you say, Listen, I want you to film what's happening on my phone. They're holding your phone, they're filming what you're doing with their phone, instantly their phone vanishes, flashlight's gone, everything's gone, and you say to them, well, you know where it's gone, of course. They go, No, and you go, you're holding it. And suddenly, where they were holding your phone, filming you holding their phone, they're now holding their own phone. It just seems utterly, utterly impossible. It's just super clean, it's not difficult to do, it requires a little bit of boards, I suppose, the first couple of times, like anything that like card under glass or like a I don't know, a watch deal or loading a coin under someone's watch. Um, it's not, I mean, what that watch deal is a bad example. I think that's a far harder skill to learn. But you know, if you've loaded a card under a drink before or something, or it's not even that difficult. It's it's quite compact, the method is super practical. The whole thing just talks a million dollars. And it's just such a surreal moment. You know, that is a trip. That is a that is in every sense the word a trip. Someone is holding your phone, filming you doing a thing with their phone, and then suddenly their phone just melts out of existence and they've been holding it the whole time. I mean, how is that possible? If I was working on something and uh and someone said, Oh, we've got a budget of a hundred thousand dollars to figure this out. What we need a method, I'd be like, nope, you can give me a million. I can't think of it, there's nothing. So for them, for you know, Tobias is a genius anyway, another modern genius, as is Henry. And that's what I say, we live in a golden age, you know, the two people, uh, two both those people uh who came up with Optics Pro have got a ton of other trips which are brilliant, you know. Um we are very lucky, very lucky to live now, I think, when there's so much great material. Yeah, I remember what it was like, you know, pre internet and then yeah, yeah, when I first got into magic in my late teens, which would be the 1980s, you know, there was some great old school magic around, and there was still great magic and it still fooled people, but now the visuals are so good, and oh it's just you know, so good. And this there's This would be in anyone's repertoire, this would be a genuine highlight. If you've not seen it, go online and have a look at the demo video. But still, if you've never seen it, wait wait till Blackpool in February and go and see it live. Even when you know what's coming, you're like, uh-huh, okay. You can see your own phone in view when they take their own out and give it you, and then boom, too late.

SPEAKER_01: 40:21

Yeah, I remember seeing this for the first time before it was the pro version when it was just optics. And there's been very few times ever that I've watched a trailer to a trick and physically said out loud as I was watching it, wow, when that moment hits, and what's really interesting is uh earlier on we we distinguish between trick and trip. This is a trip. This is a really trippy, surreal, strange, mind-altering moment. And uh I can only imagine that when they see their phone for the first time in their hand, that must be a real WTF moment.

SPEAKER_03: 41:02

Yeah, absolutely. And that's what you know, that's what that's the for me the the distillation of what astonishment is. You know, so again, I have a I have a presentation. Uh, I it starts with a story about something. When I say about stories, by the way, I'm not saying, oh, and this is a one about the three robbers who are, yeah, it's not a tale of of uh of things past, it's about something interesting in life, my life. Uh a thing I read recently, a brand new experiment I read about in time, you know, or it's about something relevant to existence and life. Um, but yeah, nevertheless, you know, it's just such a visceral moment uh that it's incomprehensible. You know, I love the I love the A CAN plot. There's none in this list, but there's a couple I could have picked. Um, and there's a this I used three A three different A CANs. Um and but you know, someone can can in their mind they can kind of think, well, I don't know how it happened, but I can see how a playing card could end up at the correct number. You know, it's not it's not beyond the realms of human computation that that might be a pot a possible thing a magician who does trips with cards could do somehow without them seeing. But this is on a whole other, you know, a whole other level.

SPEAKER_01: 42:11

It's a wonderful choice. Uh, and when we look at your list so far, we had Witch Hand, Icebreaker, Card Under Drink, and now Optics Pro. In terms of a list, it's much more diverse in style than I thought it would have been. I really thought this was going to be quite a mentalism heavy thing, but I I love that you've picked these sort of stranger routines in there as well, like optics.

SPEAKER_03: 42:38

Yeah, I mean, the next one's equally as uh, you know, not mentalism. I just want the best experience for the people I'm performing for. So, you know, I just well, if it's brilliant, I love and I'm capable of doing it, I do it. Uh, you know, it's I'm not uh, you know, I'm sure there are some people who've been on on the Desert Island uh podcast with you and thought and are really struggled to not pick their own material because obviously, you know, when you've come up with something, you love it. Otherwise you wouldn't have developed it and you know you performed it a bunch of times. Um, but you know, I'm not precious like that. I mean, if someone's got a great thing and and they're willing to teach it me, give it me, or sell it me, I'm in. I'll I'll uh I'll learn it and use it. You know, I just I still get a thrill watching brilliant material. The fact that I get then get to learn it and perform it for for other people, how fantastic. So I'm having mentioned the actual art. Should I tell you what it is?

SPEAKER_01: 43:25

Yeah, Gordon, you've teased it enough. So let's go on to number five.

SPEAKER_03: 43:28

It's Angelo's on edge. So Angelo's another genius. Man, I've known Angelo for probably 30 years. I remember when he was uh I remember when he was first on the scene, and I don't think I've been on the scene long. And um he he has regularly fooled me. He's fooled me probably over the years, let's say as much or more than anyone I any any of my friends um or anyone I know in magic. You know, he just his brain exists on a different level, another genius. Um, and I was fooled by that trick for at least a decade before I knew what the method was. And he would, you know, he's because I've known him for a long time, he's a friend of mine. If he ever shows me anything, and I go, I've really gotta know, he'll show me. But I didn't even ask that. It was so good just to know it could it could exist. And then um, you know, it looks exactly for those who don't know, it looks exactly how it looks. You build like a little house of cards, it's like a little pyramid of cards, you stack some cards, like uh two upright in an inverted V, and then some more. And then basically, two or three of the ones, three of the ones that are holding up the whole stack, you just pull them out and the thing doesn't fall over. Um and all the audience's thoughts about how it might be done like magnets or glues or rods or anything, they're just blowed out the water. And at the end, you just push the entire pyramid over and they just fall down onto the table as if they, you know, as if they're not connected at all. I mean, the method, I know it isn't a thing, a place to talk methods, and I won't, but the method is genius. It combines multiple elements. So the whole thing becomes like a holistic masterpiece of method construction where there's this bit and that bit, and then um, so I I I mean I've I performed it since uh I had one before. I mean, I know it's on big on general release now, but I had one back when he was making them to sell himself. Um, and I've done a few, I've done a couple of versions of it. I got I've got a breakfast show that I do sometimes, like a uh where like a bit of a um well-known chef will put a shut uh kind of a special breakfast on, and I go and entertain 25 people on a Sunday morning. Um uh I won't bore you all the details for now, but one of the things I do in it is I do on edge with toast. So part of the food stuffs is toast, and so I do on edge with um toast. And then I eat the the the they don't get to eat my toast, my toast. Um never share your toast, good life rule. But so I eat I eat some of the props, um, not the special ones, but I eat some of the toast at the end so it seems even more um even more natural. Um such a great yeah, it just looks perfect. It's not that easy to learn, which is great because it looks the visuals are great. So Angelo and and I think it comes out with Murphy's, they must have sold a you know shit ton of them. But the good news is not many people are doing it because there is a bit of a learning curve to getting, you know, to have to to get getting the handling down perfectly so it looks exactly as it should, so which is good.

SPEAKER_01: 46:07

This one I actually saw recently live in the Magician's Table in London. And what was really interesting with that is seeing it from the audience's perspective and seeing their reactions. And I'm I'm forgive me, I can't remember who was performing it, but I remember it it was when everyone was sort of coming into this bar area, it was quite loud and leary, and he just sat down really quaintly, quite elegantly, and just started building this card tower. And what's really interesting is just the construction of the card tower elicits such concentration from the performer, but therefore also from the spectator, because everyone's built a card castle where everyone knows how difficult it is. So it feels like just building it is such an achievement, and it really stopped the room in its tracks, which there are not many magic tricks in our industry which do that, where there is no there's no real context needed to be given. Everything is spoken about in the performance of the routine.

SPEAKER_02: 47:20

Absolutely, yeah, it's so good, so good.

SPEAKER_00: 47:28

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SPEAKER_01: 48:24

So I think that's a great choice. That leads us to number six. What did you put in your sixth spot?

SPEAKER_03: 48:30

So this is a thing, this should have been number one, really. If I had to, if if I if someone had a gun to my head and said you must put them in a list of the best things, this might have been the one that's at number one. But I'd hard for me to pick. This is a trip no one will have heard of, except maybe a few students of mine. Um, so it's called Collective Telepathy. It's a Juan Tamares trick. Uh, and it was in Genie magazine. And now I was very lucky that I saw it performed. Um, so in 2012, International Magic was still doing their annual convention and then expanded it into like a week-on magic festival. Um, so there was magic going on and different performances. And I think I was down there doing an Equivocal uh workshop on Equivoc and um some friends of. So I was there pretty much for the whole week. Anyway, the guest of honour was Samurais, who was doing a lecture in a workshop and performing, etc. And one evening I went back to the convention hotel and I saw him perform this for layman. Um, and it was probably the most impressive thing I've ever seen anybody do because I couldn't figure out at all what the method could even possibly be. Um, so uh the the the effect is that someone, so this is an audience of laymen, English laymen who he doesn't know, and he's just there, and and uh a lot of his make a lot of his kind of followers and hangers on had flown in from all over the world and variously throughout the week. You couldn't you never saw Tamez without some people around him because he has like a little entourage. But this night he'd just come back early from somewhere and he's I think he met his daughter might have been there or his wife, or anyway, he was just him and some layman. So basically, someone writes down a group of people, so there's 20 people, and someone writes down um the name. But let's first of all, they write down something that only they know, like they write down their their own star sign or whatever, and basically Tamar has told them what it was, and then he's like, okay. And then he says, Okay, I want you to think of anyone who's ever lived, but it must be someone everyone's heard of, and I want you to write that down and then fold it up and put it in your pocket. So then he starts to ask the audience. He asks these 20 random people, um, okay, so and the only thing is he says it can isn't it's kind of interesting, though. It can be anyone famous like a king or a sports person or a or a or some famous actor. So it could be anyone. He literally no one knows. So he says to the audience, Oh, um, what so you know, where do you think this person might have lived? So they come up with some places. He goes, right, well, we'll use one of those. And then he asks, What do you think their profession might have been? Uh, and he asks about their characteristics and what period of time did they live in, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, so they end up with a name and and there's no stooging involved, and he's not prompting, he just leaves then, leaves the audience up to decide. He's just asking questions, no dual reality, nothing going on. And then they then, you know, we end up with Frank Sinatra. The audience collectively come up with Frank Sinatra, and he says to the woman, Who are you thinking of? And she says, Frank Sinatra. I was like, What the how can this be possible? Anyway, so uh the next day I couldn't stop thinking about it. And I asked a couple of people, you know, he must have misunderstood it, you must have had too many beers. I'm like, no, I'm telling you that was it. So a light book went off in my brain. I tell you, I'm I read a lot and I've generally got a good, you know, recall. And I remembered this vaguely, something similar, in a magazine. Anyway, when I couldn't wait for the commentary gatherer to get home and find it. Uh, it's in Genie magazine, October 2002, page 52. Best piece of mentalism you'll learn this year, it's the best piece of mentalism you'll learn next year. It's it's if someone said to me, do one piece of mentalism for the rest of your life, it maybe be a toss-up between this and Tim Monswitch hand, but this would be maybe up there. It's um it just seems so impossible. It doesn't seem there can be an existing method that because you these people just saying shit out loud, and he goes, Oh, you think they're from they're maybe from uh I think it was our USA. So someone said Germany, I think uh so anyway, they end up in the USA and ultimately I'll say it was Frank Sinatra, but it could be anything, and the method is it can be anything, there's no control. I mean, there is some control, but not in any way that you would possibly comprehend. I mean, I know when people listen to the podcast now, they're gonna be thinking, yeah, I know Elsa's enthusiastic about stuff. This thing, this trip can't possibly be as good as he's saying it is. I'm telling you, it's better than that. If you only look at one thing that's in this list, look at this and try it out. It's absolutely sensational. It's great.

SPEAKER_01: 52:58

Well, that I mean, even sitting here now trying to think up of ways that that that could be a thing, it just it it feels unfathomable. There doesn't feel like it it could be a thing.

SPEAKER_03: 53:09

And it's Samrus, right? You go, Samaris doesn't develop mentalism stuff, does he? And yet this is as clever a mentalism thing as you'll ever read or ever learn. It's just phenomenal. Collective telepathy, remember the name, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01: 53:21

Well, I know I'll definitely be checking that out. So far from your list, I've got Icebreaker and now Collective Telepathy. That I'm I'm gonna have to um research after this because they both sound phenomenal. But we are on the tail end of your eight now, so we've got two more, and it's curious that you've not had any honourable mentions yet. So from your 25 that you um managed to get down to at the beginning, we've not had any any honourable mentions so far.

SPEAKER_03: 53:51

I'm keeping the honourable mention till last because um it's a thing of mine. So, and it would be very self-serious, so number one's mine or so. And I was like, you know, I I I did the thing, which it is a thing I use uh uh a lot. Um, but the next two things, seven and eight, are things that uh I do all the time. These are probably two of my well, certainly the next one's one of my most performed, if not my most performed, it's it's in my top five things that I perform all the time. And it has been since I first learnt it. Um and then the other thing is uh a thing that I carry in my wallet all the time as well, and I perform regularly, and then so I it too that's too good not to share with the listeners. I just had to, just had to, you know, stuff I love.

SPEAKER_01: 54:32

So well, anyone playing Mark Elsden bingo, which we love playing on this podcast, we've got one trick that's coming up, the honorable mention, and we know it's a Mark Elson trick. So if you are playing at home, think now which Mark Elsden routine do you think is gonna be the honorable mention? There's so many good routines and props that you've put out over the years. I uh even remember a very clever pad of sorts from Full 52 many years ago, which was excellent as well.

SPEAKER_03: 55:05

Yeah, spy pad, I use that all the time. It's my go-to. It allows, yeah, um, I I've got no resided interest. I'm not trying to sell any. I don't sell them. I think I know Forrest uh got the back on the market, it's brilliant uh that he has. I'm really happy about that. But what I like about it, I used to use a peak wallet all the time, and I still um, you know, I carry a peak wallet, and for two decades, maybe I used to use the um uh the stealth wallet. Um, in fact, I preferred it over the stealth assassin. So when they came up second hand, I would buy old ones. No real reason, I was just used to it and I liked it. And with all the peak wallets, the problem is you have to look at the place where the thing has been written after it's been written. So and eventually I was thinking, uh, that's a bit it didn't wasn't for me. So with a spy pad, you can turn around, someone else can turn around, they write something on the top page of a pad, they tear it off, fold it up, put it in their pocket, they give you the pad back, and in the act of putting the pad away, you glimpse what it is. Um, no electronic or anything. So, and that's just a cleaner thing for me. So I, you know, I love the spy pad. It's not the spy pad though. My honorable mention isn't the spy pad.

SPEAKER_01: 56:04

All right, well, that's one off the bingo list as well. That's that's one of many. Right, let's find out then what's in your tail end. So, what's in your seventh position?

SPEAKER_03: 56:12

Uh, number seven, this is the this is the thing um that I probably probably the my favorite. Uh I do love it, you know, this year or last year, this year, the uh Tobias Dostel Optics thing. But this thing, it's a thing of Lloyd Barnes called six. Um it's a but it's a favorite thing that uh when he showed it to me at Blackpool a year a year, two, two years ago, maybe, I performed it, I performed it hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. Basically, um a participant picks six random lotto numbers and you've predicted them on a real lottery ticket that they can keep. That that's basically the effect. So in my phone, always in the back of the case, I have a folded lotto tick, uh, lottery ticket, lotto ticket. That's for uh Saturday night straw. And later this afternoon, I will be going over to um uh uh my bar in uh Orin Bay to meet a friend of mine, and no doubt we'll meet some people who uh who've never seen me do any performing before or don't know much about magic or anything. And if the occasion arises for me to perform anything, I will do Lloyd Barnes' six. Um it came out as a limited edition manuscript when he did a uh uh not when he didn't do anything a couple of years ago at Blackpool. Um he's lecturing at the session. And by the way, there's uh there's a bit more to the trip that than than going on than that. Um so I will expand it a little bit because it doesn't, it just makes it better. So what happens is you get them to go on a lottery website, uh, you never touch their phone or anything, you don't even see their phone. And they go on you some of the uh web address they got on this lottery website, and they they research the numbers they normally play. So if you've got a set of numbers, they put them in. And what this do is it's some it's a it's a record of all the lottery since it's since it began. Uh and so you can see had you played those numbers religiously every Wednesday and Saturday, or every Friday, or whatever the where whatever the however whatever the frequency of the lottery is in your state or country, whatever, you can see what you would have won all together if you'd religiously put it on uh every um every week. Well, how much you'd have spent and what you'd have won. Um and so sometimes it throws up that they would have won a uh these are real numbers, it's not a fake out. So sometimes it throws up that they would have won a jackpot, very rarely, but I've had that had that happen twice. Very often they'd have won, you know, 10,000 pounds or whatever. Most often they win, you know, 10 pounds, which is the match for three numbers. Um, so then they put a random set of numbers in, which they just think up in the moment, and it's those three numbers. And it and again, it shows they'd have won X amount if for this amount of investment. Then you do a double take and go, wait a minute. Um, why you know, why did you pick those random numbers? They go, well, I don't know, you just pick some random numbers. And they are the numbers you have predicted on your lottery ticket. It's entirely hands-off. There's no electronics, you're not secretly doing anything that you're not using. Um, you know, it's on their phone, but you're not secretly adding a shortcut to any of that madness. It's just completely above board. Um, and they can keep the lottery ticket. It's next Saturday, you know, is this Saturday's lottery ticket? So it's just brilliant. Um absolutely love it. And as I say, he's lecturing at the session in uh January, um, Vanishing A Convention, and he's got a book a new book out, and this is one of the things he's teaching in the book. So uh yeah, I'm gutted actually. Other people are gonna be doing it, but you know, share their wealth, I suppose. Um it's just a brilliant, brilliant thing. Um I love Lloyd, he's so incredibly creative. Uh you know. But uh yeah, this is the what this is the one thing of his that I do all the time.

SPEAKER_01: 59:43

Well, it sounds phenomenal. I'll be first in line for that book because I love Lloyd's work as well. And I think what's so lovely about not just this, but I think just reflecting on your list so far, um, and definitely what you spoke about at the beginning about the audience. Experience and stuff like that. Every one of your routines has been kind of different in the way that you've chosen it. Each routine feels very, very distinctive in a set. It really feels like each one has its own little story. And I think a lottery prediction, it's one of those skills that people anticipate us having. You know, people anticipate us. How many times at a gig have I been, you know, told, are you going to make the bill disappear? Or uh I bet I bet you can just make money appear. It's one of those skills that everyone anticipates us having. And the lottery prediction routine, and again, tell me what you think about this. It's one of those routines that I think a lot of people want to perform, but it's hard to find a version that fits the real world, feels authentic.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:52

I'll hold my hands up. I've got I've had a couple of versions out, both using dex number cards. They're both very fooling routines. And I, you know, the main one through Alakazan. Uh, and then I think I can't remember the the magician now who who advanced my thinking on it, and then there's a a newer, better version out. But ultimately, of course, if we're honest with ourselves, whilst whilst they can be performed and presented for layman hugely entertainingly, very effectively, and completely fooling, nevertheless, the fact is, really, you would just have a lottery ticket and say picks and numbers, and that you know that they wouldn't be messing about with number cards. And I mean, it's not messing about, it's part of the you know, the process and the uh and the theatrical flavouring of it having props and so on. But um, yeah, but I I let me throw in a sneaky old uh honourable mention here, by the way. Um, although this is the one I do the most, that's mainly because I work close up uh or casually, or uh when I do my main probably the only gigs I do is private house parties now that I do um variously here's everywhere, uh, and not lots of them. Um just uh, you know, uh just a few a year. Um so but even that is mainly kind of a little stand-up small parlor thing. So there is a version of um uh the lottery trick for stage, which is phenomenally good, and that's by my old friend Colin, um Colin McLeod. Um he calls it lottery, it's in a little booklet. Uh I think don't think you can still get it, maybe called No Shit, but it's no, as in KNOW, so no shit rather than no shit. Um and he just calls it lottery. And it's just when I first saw him do it, I couldn't believe it. Basically, um it just seems impossible. You give someone a genuine lottery ticket, you never touch it again. You get six people to stand up in the audience, they each think of a number, they say their number out loud, the person who's holding a lottery ticket checks it, and all six numbers match. They're exact, and they sit down. No electronics, no switch of ticket, nothing. I mean, it's just insanely good, but it does need to be done for a um for a stage-sized audience. It can't be, but there's no stooging, no dual reality, there's no pre-show. It's they are genuinely picking a number in the moment. They've got no idea two seconds before you they're going to be asked to do that. You know, the method is phenomenally good. Um, but since I don't generally work for you know audiences of uh 150, 200, 300,000, whatever, then it's not a method I use, but it but it is genius.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:17

Well, let's move into number eight then. So, what is in your final spot?

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:21

So, yeah, my good friend Michael Murray, it would be impossible for me not to have one of his pieces of genius. This is one of the best trips ever devised, and I guarantee that everyone's heard of it and no one's doing it. Um, it's called Between the Lines. Man, if if there's one and everything on this list, but if there's one trick that I wish I'd invented, it was it's this. Um, good news, you don't have to worry about that. Thankfully, Michael did uh invent it. So you you out of your wallet, you bring a torn piece of paper, it's folded up, and you say it's a page that you tore out of a novel. You give it to someone beholds between their fingers, they describe themselves in great detail what they think is involved in the story. The page is opened up, no switch. They read it aloud, and they are astonished to see that the text accurately that you know the printed page accurately reflects the scene that five seconds earlier only existed in their head. It's just unbelievably good. Yeah, Mike's a genius as well. I'm very lucky to call him a close friend of mine. Um, he is uh yeah, he's just we used to uh he it uh slightly different circumstances um uh recently, but uh for many years we've spoken to each other several times a week on the phone, and I'm I'm forever uh he rings me up, he goes, Have you got a deck of cards, Andy? Or have you got the oh yeah, here we go. And I know I'm gonna get blown away. I mean, I don't know if you've seen, probably this is an honourable mention. Have you seen his out of this world? I I mean I was fooled before it happened. It starts off like this. Have you got a deck? Yes. Open the box, take them out, right? Shuffle them, okay. Um, flarrow them if you want, okay. Um, turn half the deck over, face up, and shuffle, riffle, shuffle them together, overhand shuffle them, turn some more over and shuffle them again. And go, okay. I'm thinking if any trip happens here now, I'm gonna be I I there's no trip possible to start from these set conditions. He then does out of this world. What? With not just a borrowed shuffle deck, but shuffle face up and face down. I'm like, mate, where did you how did he you must have literally been tripping to have a the even conceived of this as a possibility? I know he wasn't, but you know, just where do you go with that? Oh man, but yeah, so anyway, um between the lines and literally it's just knowledge, it's just like which hand, where you you know, I carry a poker chip actually. That's what I I use for the um uh just a standard poker chip from a casino. Um uh you know, and and the knowledge in your head allows you to do the which hand the same with Michael Murray's thing, it really is just a uh a page torn out of a novel, and they can keep it at the end. It's just you know, there's nothing to it. Uh, but the method is so brilliant, so brilliant. I must have done this thousands of times.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:05

Yeah, this was one of the ones that I think we've discussed it before on the podcast because it's just phenomenal, and it's very much sort of the first of its kind, because we'd never really seen a routine quite like this before, in that it's just one page in your wallet. It's you know, we use EDC a lot now, but it really was an EDC, and it was all about the audience, and the focus was completely on them. They are doing this incredible thing, they get to read that prediction at the very end.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:41

Yeah, and he's got he's got a couple of other versions which he's never released as well, so I'm hoping they'll come out one day, you know. But yeah, again, his book is fantastic, um, peace of my mind. I know he's got a second book been in the works for a long time, but he's just uh he's just an incredibly creative guy. But if that was the only thing he'd ever created, his name would go down in mentalism history as one of the, you know, as having created an absolute in the future that people will look back and go, yeah, that's a classic, you know, because it is it's just a classic, classic thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:08

Well, Mark, looking at your list, it's such a brilliant list of routines, but we haven't had any from you. So I do think we need your honourable mention because you know you've created so many incredible pieces of magic and mentalism over the years. It would be so difficult to pinpoint just one if I was picking from your works, because there's so many exceptional pieces. So, out of all of your things, I'm so interested to know what that one routine is.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:43

It's slime lights. Um this is a five-phase routine where you make a uh, you know, I I'll say spectator because that's how it's marketed, uh, where you make a participant the star. Um so you take someone, you're working for a group of people who know each other uh socially or their family or whatever, but they don't really know you, you don't really know them. You ask um uh a girl who's part of the group, a woman who's part of the group to help you. She's well, you don't ask her actually, um, that is constructed so she never gets a chance to say no. But she helps you and you give her some secret instructions, and then she helps you finding cards, naming cards. Uh it's a five-phase routine that builds kind of um, you know, in a very logical fashion, one from the one uh phase from the next. Um the first phase is based as so much of the stuff I love is is based on a Gary Kurtz idea. And then I extrapolated that and thought, how could this be then something else or something else? And probably it it really genuinely took me at least a year and a half, maybe two years, to put the whole thing together in the order it was in. And then I performed it for at least a decade. You know, all the magicians say this. Oh, I've been doing this for 20 years, and really they thought it up last week and this week they're selling it. I got no problem with that. You know, if it's a brilliant idea and it's performable, put it out. Who cares how long you how long ago you thought it up? I've I've always wanted to do a lecture somewhere called Shit. I thought up on the train on the way here. I think that'd be quite entertaining. And just say, you know, uh say, oh, this is all material about from the and then at the end just go just so we're just so you know, I've uh I've got there's been a huge deception going on. I literally thought of all of these things on the train on the way here today. Um I think that'll be very honest and in it might not be a good lecture, um, but it'd be an intriguing approach. But um, but this is something I'd literally did for a decade before I even considered releasing it. Um and yeah, it's my if I end up in a you know in uh in the distant future, if there's a tiny footnote in magic history with the name Elsden next to it, there probably won't be, but if there is, it'll be for limelight. It's um it's my favorite thing. Uh when I did the bear pit close of a Blackpool, um, which as I say was about a decade ago when I was lecturing, I just did this. And every as I started from one group and went to the next, there was a few came with me. So by the time I got to the last table, I had a bit uh my table was twice as big as any of the other tables. Like some people were like, wait a minute, what's he doing? How is he doing this? Because the great thing is there's no flight of hand in it. Um uh it's and you can give the deck away at the end. It just seems utterly impossible. But for layman, that's where its strength is really. Uh, and it ends with an utterly impossible card at any number where you don't touch anything, uh, there's a number you don't know, and on it goes. So I'm not gonna wax lyrical about mail material. That's very uh self-serving, but I do I do love performing it. But much like the all of the trip trips on this list, if I hadn't have come up with this, I would love it just as much. I I can honestly say that. Um it's a it's a monster, it creates absolute bedlam, entertainment, laughter. It's just great. I've often I've said this previously uh somewhere a couple of times, and it's true, and and I've maybe I'm deluding myself, I can live with that, um, about this and much else. But uh I I would do a gig and I would follow, I would follow Tamris and Williamson with Limelight and not be worried that uh people are gonna go, well, the first two are great, but that last one was a bit shit, wasn't it? I think Limelight's a strong enough trip, not if I'm performing it, if anyone's performing it, that it would hold its own in any company of any performance. It's just it just every reaction you ever want out of a out of a little routine of you know magic performance, it it gives it all. It's really good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:13

Well, uh you mentioned that you can't wax lyrical about it, but I can. So um I think that that's a great choice. I remember getting this years ago, and it was when I started doing restaurants, and I used to basically tell all of the staff in the restaurant if a customer comes up to you and says, What is my card? Just say the Queen of Hearts. And that meant that, you know, a lot of the customers knew the staff and know the staff really well in restaurants, and you're the newbie basically when you're coming into a restaurant, so it's always nice to get the staff involved, and effectively, all I would do was make a general public member have the the queen of hearts, and then say to them, I'll tell you what, I'm not gonna do the trick, pick a member of staff, go and ask them. Um, and then your routine came out, limelight, and ever since then, that is the version that I tell the staff. So in all of the restaurants now, I teach them the limelight method, so to speak, and it means that at any time a member of the audience can uh or in the restaurant can go up to one of the servers and they can find the card. They they don't need anything else. It's such a great idea, it's so, so clever.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:26

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Um, I'm glad you had a chance to use it. This is the thing, you know, when people tell me that they do some nice stuff, it's either this or the blindfold Rubik's CubeSol from years ago, which also came out as well, because I'm but um you know the the the the the cube stuff has been, you know. I mean, I I used to do that. That's the only thing I did, the blindfold cube solve. Then I used to and I still do it. I love it. Um, but when you look at some of the, you know, Kieran Johnson uh uh his thing uh a cube in jar, you know, a jar so tiny it can bet you well, it can't fit the cube in. He can he can put a signed cube into that jar. You're like, what? And then uh the thing that's crazy, Sancho beat last Blackpool, where you you mix a cube up under a under a handkerchief yourself, and he's he's mixing his up behind his back, you mix yours, and he comes out and he's his solve, and you're like, Yeah, and he goes, Well, wouldn't it be impressive if yours is solved? You're like, Yeah, there's no fucking way this could be solved. I mean, it's absolutely not possible. I know I've been mixing it up. You can feel it's not a gimmick cube, and he just pulls handkerchief off and it's solved. You're like, I mean, it some of the it's such such clever material. As I say, we live in a golden age of creativity now. There's so much good stuff. So much good stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:31

Well, I think that's a great honorable mention. So just to revisit your list very quickly, we had Witch Hand, Icebreaker, Card Under Drink, we had Optics Pro on Edge, we had Collective Telepathy Six and Between the Lines. That's a pretty interesting list, if I do say so.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:50

Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm I I love them all. I love them. As I say, I haven't, you know, there's stuff I do in there all the time by yeah, Jackie McClements's shock treatment and Bob Neal's Gifts, five gifts of life, and there's a thing, oh, two, and then a great Ian Rowler thing I do, astral projection. That, you know, so many brilliant people, and you know, it getting it down to eight really what really was difficult. Really was difficult.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:12

Well, it's a great eight, but we gave you eight tricks, and we've only given you one each of these now. So we are gonna go to the controversial one. I want you to imagine, Mark, that you're about to dig a big sandy hole in your island and you're gonna throw something from our industry never to be seen again. What are you banishing?

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:32

There's nothing that I I mean, there's a ton of stuff I I don't like, but there's nothing I really hate where I think, I mean, magicians' egos, I think, you know, get over yourself. Whilst we can create brilliant, mind-altering, hugely entertaining, you know, genre-bending mind, blah, blah, blah, uh tricks for people. We are not curing cancer, we are not, you know, feeding the world with the this is entertainment, and yet, and so I I hate that. I hate you know, people with big egos and letting their ego get in the way of themselves or performance or whatever. Um, but there's nothing that I mean, I'm not a fan of gospel magic, but I know the people who love it and love it. So um I maybe if there's one thing that I that I used to be guilt show as well, and I I I notice it a lot more now because I'm very careful about what I say when I'm performing, is I think kind of self-descriptive patterns are another word I'm not fond of, but it's probably the best word where people haven't thought out what they're gonna say, and they're you know, close-up magicians particularly, you it you want to be funny and you want to be spontaneous, you want to riff in the moment, and that's all great skills to have. But, you know, I'm gonna what I'm gonna ask you to do is pick a card now. Don't say that. Just ask them, just do it. Just say, can you pick a card, please? You don't need to preface it by telling them what you're gonna do. It's this running commentary pattern of, and now I'm gonna put it back here, and now I'm gonna snap my fingers, and um you and all of that, you know, show don't sell. You don't need to tell people what you're doing as you're doing it. They can literally see, they are literally watching it in the moment. You don't need to tell them, they can see it. Um, and I think that's because uh, you know, nature apps avoid, and so magicians know they can't say nothing, they've got to say something while at performing, and of course, they've not thought through anything to say, they haven't discovered any great stories or presentations or any way of kind of presenting magic other than as a demonstration. Um, and so that's uh that's probably something I wish. Well, I don't hate it, hate it, but I do wish it would change. I feel sorry for the performers that they haven't got anything better to say, and then I feel I don't really feel sorry for the audiences, but I'm sure their audiences would appreciate it more if they had more engaging, you know, performance uh scripts and a delivery that you know commanded more attention and amplified the mystery. And um, you know, as I say, there's so much great material that I think we owe it to the creators ourselves and our audiences to be as entertaining as possible and to give them a meaningful experience that goes beyond the now I'm gonna do this and now then gonna do that, and now I'm gonna ask you to do this, and you know, very mundane.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:17

I think a lot of the time it can come down to the style of routine because certainly in the list that you've chosen, for example, everything's about the audience's uh experience, so to speak. Whereas if I was doing an ACR, it feels a lot easier to use that descriptive language. I'm gonna take this card and place it inside. Now it comes to the top. Whereas if this was a them experience and I said, I want you to take the cards, imagine if you took that card, placed it in, and it came to the top yourself without me doing anything. Yes, go for it. And and now it becomes about them and their experience, they're creating the the patter, so to speak, in their own mind, they're creating that moment of magic.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:05

Uh you know, taking it and and then taking it again, uh a different direction or whatever. So I do do uh uh an ambitious routine, but then so the card is signed, and I say you can see your signature, right? And I don't know if I'm gonna push it in the middle of the deck, I purposely very slowly push it in the middle of the deck, but I hold it, I say, um, so if you you know, if if you had to say about how far down it was, you know, you know, there's 52 in a deck, right? About how far down it was, what would you say? And they say 27, 28. I go, okay. So do pay attention to this because no sleight of hand, no need for any sleight of hand, because this. I just turn over the top card and boom, it's there. So you're giving them a framework to think about something which is pointing up the effect, but without saying, and now I'm pushing it in the middle, you know. And I I think it's just um I think it's all born originally of that's how we learn. Well, you know, it's a uh it's a it's a uh sin of uh repetition. That's what we see other performers doing, that's how things are performed. Um, and particularly even, you know, even we go to a convention and you know, magic dealers and the demonstrators on that stand will be showing a load of new stuff. And they often, and very often, because I know a bit behind the scenes as you do, a lot of the stuff that they'll be selling at Blackpool will finally have come into stock two days before the convention or two weeks before the convention. So there was a time to get some brilliant, sparkling, interactive, engaging presentation together for it. So, and we we actually call them demos, don't we? We don't call them they uh, you know, oh what here's the latest demo. We don't say here's the latest performance or promo. We say oh it's the latest demo. It's literally a demonstration of what the trick does, not of the performance of it, just a demonstration of what the prop does and the thing. And so, you know, we we see that the first time at a convention, let's say, or online, and then we go, oh, that's how and and you fool by it and there's a teammate, yeah, that's great. And so, and then you just carry on the same thing, it's just uh You know, it's a it's a a a repeating pattern that, you know, just cascades throughout magic because that's pretty much pretty much what a lot of people have always done and how it's still done. So um but I think I think we can be better. I think, you know, and and if if we're better, then magic's better. And that's you know, that's great. We live in a time where magic's important. You know, life, life for many, we're lucky. We we get depressed. We've got, you know, if we look at the news and it's depressing what's going on with wars and various other, you know, erosion of institutions that were considered, you know, safe, you know, and and and but we've got the luxury of getting depressed, well I have and you have, from sat here in the West. I'm sat in a nice warm house, I can pick what I want for lunch, I can watch what I want on seven different TV subscriptions, and you know, surrounded by books that I can say, yeah, what what, you know, and I'm not saying depression isn't real, and I'm not saying anything about any of that side of things, but we live in such a privileged uh, you know, place. Um, and so and we can give a gift, you know, magic is a gift, but performing of magic is a gift. When I was younger, I didn't like performing out, you know, that's always at a paid gig. If someone said to me, Oh, you can you show me a show, show me a trick, or I know you're a magician, can you show me something? I would think, I wouldn't say it, but I would think, well, you know, if someone's a doctor and you're at a party, you don't say, Oh, can you diagnose this? You know, what uh like a really arrogant asshole view of uh magic. And now I'm like the complete opposite. I'm like, yeah, absolutely I can. I mean it's a joy. I it's uh I know a thing that can make you go wow and feel astonishment and mystery, and it's an incredible thing. And I'm lucky enough to have fallen into it as a hobby a long time ago and then fallen into a job after that. And I could do that for you for no reason other than I'm gonna enjoy doing it and you're gonna enjoy experiencing it. And what a gift that is to be able to do that. So, I mean, I'm not running around socially at all times with pockets full of stuff, just hoping someone's gonna ask to see something, but I'm always willing to show anyone, you know, who knows what kind of light, what kind of day they've had, what kind of circumstance their life is. So you can bring them some astonishment and joy and lift them out of that, you know, even just the mundanity of a happy life, you know, it's just what a gift we have that we can give to people. Um, yeah, very we're very privileged.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:14

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And on your island, the uh self-descriptive patterns are gone. So people are being more mindful about their presentations on your island, and hopefully it's uh making your island an even more lovely place to be. So we've now got a book. Now bit obviously our listeners can't see this, but behind you is a sizable bookshelf full of books. Um, and uh you've lit you've quite literally crammed every little space in that bookshelf with books. So I'm guessing this would have been a difficult one for you to pick.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:50

Yes, uh, so uh obviously the the whole narrative of this desert island tricks thing is uh um fictional. And so when it was like what book do I pick? So I I was like, do I pick a book, my favourite book, or do I pick a book that I haven't finished reading yet or want to want to study more? So I thought, you know, I'm just gonna pick my favourite book with with full of my loads of my favourite tricks by my favorite magician other than Gordon, but this guy's up there as well, and it's uh Gary Kurtz, Unexplainable Acts. Um, so Gary Kurtz, what a magician. Uh, for me, uh magician and mentalist. Um, I mean, Gordon's up there in terms of creative brilliance, and I've seen Gordon do so much, but I've also seen Kurtz do so much. And I perform more, I perform more on Kurtz's material than anybody's over the years, far more than Gordon's or Bob Neil's or um Weber's or all the people I love, friends of mine who whose material is brilliant, um, but but still Kurtz is the man for me. Um, so this book is a Kaufman release that came out. I think it's back in print. It's been in our print many times. Uh, Gary kept Kurtz trained as a dancer and choreographer before he came into Magic. Um, so he has a very poetic kind of uh styling and way of performing. Um and uh this was 1990. Um so I suppose some of the basis of my story, interest in stories and great presentations. He started as one of the great churches here that I've uh performed a million times, not a million, but a lot, hypothetical possibilities is effectively an ambitious card routine. And it starts off with the line Life uh Life is like a river flowing, flowing from our distant murky past. I'm talking about your murky past, of course, uh, and then pastors and off into the mists of the unknown future. So to represent the unknown future, I'm gonna have you take a card out of this deck. They take a card out, it goes into the zip net portion of his wallet. Um, now we need the card to represent the present. A card is selected and signed, and we're now into an ambitious card routine where the card variously is on top of the deck, not on top of the deck without any moves. On the bottom of the deck, the signature vanishes off the card, the card itself vanishes, the card reappears, the signature comes back on it, and then it's vanished from the deck, the deck's example, and it's now in his wallet. Um so, and that's just one of the thing in things in there, hypothetical possibilities. It's absolutely brilliant. Um and he's got, yeah, I've done, I mean, he's got tricks with uh tricks with jumbo uh quiz and stuff, which which I haven't done. My hands aren't that big, um, but I've done most of the material in here. He has a thing with uh some small white index cards in a mirror where you sign one, a participant signs one. Uh, you pick a word, you uh you sorry I know you pick the word um uh wallet, they pick a word, you write them both down, and then your word changes places with its mirrored image. So the the the word wallet is now the correct way around in the mirror, but when they look back at the piece of card you signed, it's now written in reverse, and then you repeat it with their word on the piece of card they're holding. It's like what how what it's just so good, and he's just got so much great material in there. Um, you know, every uh almost everything in there is is absolutely genius.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:00

That's not one that we've had before on the card.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:03

So that's you know much about Kurtz. He kind of left magic under a bit of a cloud. He got he got heavily into mentalism and joined the PEA and then had massive rows about them. They were they were giving awards to an award to someone who had stolen his material and he'd reported it to the PEA, and uh they said they would do something about it. And then at the ceremony where they gave him the Mentalist of the Year award, they also gave a creativity award to the person who'd stolen his material. I think that's the way round it was, but anyway, so he's just like he was like, you know, F you all, I'm out, I'm out of this. So he just kind of left magic and mentalism completely, but he still performs and creates. Um I have seen him do more such incredible stuff. If you look on my YouTube channel, which I don't really keep up with, there's probably eight videos on there from the last 15 years. Um if it's unified at the minute, I'll make it listed before this uh body goes out. He's got a thing called full frontal assault. If bandits kidnap my family and we're gonna shoot them, unless they were fooled by a magic trip, I would get them to watch this curse thing. It's phenomenally good. Four coins appear from nowhere, they transfer from one hand to another, participant's hand, I think, from uh cursed hand, then they vanish, and that's the end of it. It just goes through him. And he's like, at the end of it, you're like, Well, I can't believe it. And then he tells you the method, and then you're like, Well, that can't be true because of X, Y, and Z. Um, so you watch it again, you're like, Well, what is he doing that? Because it well, I'll allude to the method because I'll say his sleeves are up. You go, that can't be the method because his sleeves are up, it's madness. And then you might not know this, but um Kurt Kurtz, he also did the best lapping I've ever seen as well. The best sleeve is the best lapping. So he's got one trick called Relentless, which is uh an effect that you perform sat down with a coin purse where dollars appear and they change to um Chinese coins, and then the the purse itself vanishes from the frame, then the fret. It just goes on. And and so I would say Kurtz is the best sleeper and the best lapper of uh of any performance I've ever seen live or on video. And he does lapping in one trip in his whole repertoire, and sleeving in one trip in his whole repertoire. And I'll tell you how good he was at sleeving. He had a student for a while, and his student was called Carl Clutier. Carl Clutier took Kurtz's lessons on sleeving and turned it into his entire career. Clutier was known for sleeving and lapping, that's what, uh, and uh top it. And and and Clutier won Physm, the Desert Magic seminar, every competition he ever entered, he um he won. And all with his genius sleeving. Every pretty much every routine of his was sleeving or top it. And he's got it in every routine. Kurtz is even better at it, he's got it in one routine in his whole repertoire. I mean, what a what a grap, what a guy. I hope one day in his old age and his dotage, he comes back to magic. Um, but if he does or he doesn't, good news, this book exists. It's full of brilliant, brilliant material. Um, if I was forced and I could only take one thing, I wouldn't take any of the trips. I would just take this book.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:56

Wow, that is high praise indeed. Uh, this isn't one that I have in my collection, but I I will add to it. I will find a copy and I will add to my collection based on what you just said. It sounds phenomenal. But that leads us to your last item, Mark. So this is the stranger of all of the things that we have on here. So it's your non-magic item that you use for magic.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:22

I guess um it would be a laptop to keep keep doing the fig. So um, I mean the fig is week 192 this week, so it's not long till it's week 200, and then of course, when we get to week 208, it's four years I'll have done it. So it'll be into its fifth year. Um, it was under the radar for the first year, maybe longer. I wanted to know I could do it because you know, I'm uh in the past I've had trouble getting ebooks out on time, printed books out on time. So to say to anyone, oh yeah, I'm gonna do a thing every week, like, uh-huh, are you? Um so I was like, man, I've got to do it. So anyway, it got to the end of the first year. I didn't miss a Sunday. And I had food poisoning, I was on holiday, I was at the conventions. Still every Sunday it came out. And then year two, I built it up a bit. So it's going great, and I've got a good readership, but of course, I'd love more people to know about it, more people to read it. Um, I'd love that, of course, because it's a subscription, so let me pay me for it. But I also think it's good for magic. So, you know, I list the I list the best five things I've seen this week, whether that's a trip I bought, a book I've read, a download. Very often it's none of those things, though. It's a freebie someone's given away, or an article, or a show someone's posted on YouTube. So it's not all stuff to buy. Um, and then as you say, I mentioned my favorite podcast that week, um, or my favorite blog. There's a section of uh premise, and then I also have at the bottom some tabs. It's full six tabs that I've got that open that might interest you too. And I know a bunch of people who go to those first because it might be about a puzzle or some story or whatever that that that I find fascinating. So it's just a it's just like, hey guys, I found this cool shit this week and I think you'll like it. And if you kind of got the same aesthetic as me and you like things I like, puzzles and magic and mentalism and maths and stuff, then you'll probably really enjoy it. So so it for it have to be the laptop because as I say, the year four is um 10 issues from being at an end. So year five, and I'll be doing it in for the foreseeable future. I, you know, I'm I'm not I'm in I am pot committed as they say. I'll be doing this in the year 10 and year 15 and year 20. So, yes, for me that's it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:23

We're gonna gift you something as well, then. So we're gonna gift you a solar-powered battery pack uh to keep you a laptop going. But I think that's a great choice, and you know, I I had a chance to look at the metabolic fig. I think it's such a brilliant idea. I think the just the ones that I read, and I haven't had a chance to have a proper deep dive, but even from the first time viewing them, there were some really interesting things in there.

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:52

Thanks, Jamie. The whole point is it's designed to uh help people save time and money. So, you know, as I say, we live in a golden age of magic releases and creativity and genius greaters, but of course, that just means there's a ton more shit to buy all the time. And so, you know, one of my students a few years ago was was very much part of the genesis in my mind of the of the fig. He was saying he was like really struggling to keep up with all the latest releases. And this is a guy who has plenty of money to buy all the latest releases, he can get them all if he wants, but he's like, man, just stuff's just accumulating, more boxes with things in. So I was like, yeah, what you know, I thought it'd be useful to have a filter to go. So, you know, I'm I'm I'm filtering all of the new releases and stuff I'm reading and watching and seeing through 30 odd years worth of uh of trying to make good choices and best choices about what's worth performing. So um, and it's quite short as well. I don't want people to uh hearing this to think, oh, it's a big uh more reading to do. I don't like reading. So I mean, this is a design you can have a cup of coffee and you finish reading the fig when you're halfway through the coffee. It's not you know, if if printed out, it'd be you know, maybe three pages, maybe not even that. So and it's all linked up so you can go straight to the thing to have a look at it and go, I love this. This is great. Thanks for never heard of it, or not for me, or but um I I you know the the feedback I get mainly is that people genuinely tell me that it saves them time and money. Um so you know that that was kind of one of the stated goals of it. So I'm I'm glad to hear when that's the case for people.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:15

Well, I think it's great, but if people want to find out more about you, what you're up to, metabolic fig, all of that good stuff, where can they go to, Mark?

SPEAKER_03: 1:33:24

So yeah, I've got a website, there's nothing on there at the minute. I'm just I don't feel the need, never have had a kind of a big online presence. I mean, I'm on Facebook and Instagram, but again, I don't post a ton there. Social media is not really a big thing for me. Um if I if it wasn't for some of the private men, you know, magic groups I was in, I would quit Facebook. I'm like, you know, the algorithm can get by fine without me. Thank you very much. Um, but um, you know, yeah, you can email me. There's a there's a um a link on the um fig website. You can email me, that'll get to me. I am on Facebook, so send me a message. I will eventually see it. Um, you know, or you can email me markelston at gmail.com. So always you're happy to chat with people about anything, anything they're interested in, anything they want to know, give them any help or whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:10

And we said that we'll put the link in the show notes. So if you're listening to this on a podcast platform, check out the show notes for any links, and obviously on YouTube, check out any links as well. But that just leaves me to say, Mark, thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Jamie. It's been great. It's been great finally having you here as well. And of course, uh thank you all for listening. Do go check out Metabolic Fig. It is such a brilliant idea, and you're gonna discover some really interesting things in there. Uh, like I said, I already have, and I'm four episodes in uh episodes or four versions of the mim. We'll go for versions. So do go check that out. Go check out everything Mark Elsden because he is just a phenomenal creator, and it was a joy to have this list. I'm gonna go now and check out some of those, including Icebreaker, uh, Collective Telepathy 6. I'm gonna badger Lloyd Barnes to sell me one of his books um before they sell out, and of course, we will see you all next week. So thank you for joining us, and we'll be back with another episode of Desert Island Tricks. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_00: 1:35:23

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