Tom Stone

The fastest way to kill your creativity is to make it easy. Tom Stone explains why he keeps raising the bar for himself, how he avoids falling into a “system” and why a little struggle is often the best sign your magic is still alive.

We also get the inside story on his hands-on magic workshops, built as an antidote to passive lectures. Instead of sitting back and consuming, participants try everything in the room and focus on the real tools of creation: structure, drama, misdirection and timing. Tom shares how that approach helps magicians at every level generate original material quickly and why learning design matters when you’re teaching experts.

Then we drop into the “desert island” list: a card effect that turns mistakes into animated miracles, “Quantum Logic” inspired by quantum mechanics and seen on Penn & Teller, an egg routine that weaponises one-ahead and one-behind and set pieces that show how to modernise classics without becoming clockwork. Along the way, Tom breaks down a sharp theory about repetition, why phase two is where you must crush suspicion and how “leapfrogging ahead” can hide method in plain sight.

It gets spicy with a banishment pick, heartfelt with a tribute to Daryl and an honest note on mental health and deeply nerdy with love for Max Maven and Jim Steinmeyer. Listen through, then subscribe, share the episode with a magician friend and leave a review.

Tom Stone’s Desert Island Tricks: 

Welcome pack: Transplant (Plucking the Pip) 

1. Quantum Logic 
2. Things That go Cluck 
3. Benson Burner 
4. A Toast for Charon 
5. Tears of Osiris
6. Cups and Balls 
7. Cardboard Chameleons
8. Seak 

Banishment. The Fitzkee Trilogy

Book. The Conjuring Anthology 

Item. Chocolate 

Conjuring workshops - https://magic-workshops.com/events/

Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk

Transcript

Staying Creative Without A Formula

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Each year I sort of set a challenge for myself to make it entertaining to myself to do it because I had seen so many columnists starting the first year, very exciting, very interesting. And after a while, each of them found a system for writing an article. And from that time on, it was like they wrote the same article but with different words each time. So they found like a system for cranking out column after column. So I didn't want to end up in that trap. So I decided that I will only continue for as long as it's very difficult to do it. Because the moment it becomes easy, that means I that I've found a system, and from that point it would be pointless to continue.

Welcoming Tom Stone To The Show

SPEAKER_02 1:18

We have a guest that again we've been trying to get on here for a very long time. So I'm very, very pleased that he's finally here. He is a legend in the world of magic, and no doubt you have one of his books on your shelf. I know I definitely do. I'm going to tell you a little bit about him. So he has had three Physm special award nominations. He took second place at the International Magic Convention close-up competition in 2003. He is an invited performer and speaker at the Physm World Championships in 2000. He is constantly at the Magic Castle in Hollywood. Of course, he was on Penn and Tele for last. He has some best-selling books, Vortex and Maelstrom, which I'm sure we're going to be talking about today. And he has just started up a series of workshops. Now, I don't want to tell you too much about this. I want Tom to tell you about it in a second. But suffice to say, if you are just discovering this podcast now and you're getting into magic, this sounds like an absolutely incredible opportunity. It sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime experience. So, like I say, I'm not going to say anything more than that, but I'm very excited to welcome today Mr. Tom Stone. Hello, Tom. Hello. Very nice to have you here. One one of the most legendary books, I think, Vortex. It was one of the ones that everyone seems to go back to time and time again.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Yeah, I'm uh quite pleased with that. Uh although I am a bit uncomfortable with the words like legend and legendary because um not necessarily because uh I don't like the words, because um it it doesn't really say if it's a legend in a good way or in a bad way.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Always in a good. I think that's very evident with some of the things that you've done. Tell us about these workshops then. So

Workshops Built For Real Learning

SPEAKER_02 3:11

you told me very briefly about them. What are they about? How do they work?

SPEAKER_03 3:15

It started um actually started with my friend Peter Rosendrien, who uh um who started to um work with adult education for uh middle management in companies and such, and learned a lot about how you teach um people who are experts in their fields because you can't really go into a um a group of people who are experts and pretend to be the teacher when it's obvious that you know less than what they do. So you you need to have sort of a different approach to teaching. So he evolved a teaching method for magicians that uh he brought me into, and then I've just taken the ball and ran with it. So it's it's a kind of a counterreaktion to lextures because lectures have become more and more passive entertainment, sort of um shows for informed lay people. So you are just sitting there and you're getting entertained, you you're consuming lectures rather than learning from it. So the the focus in these lectures are hands-on. So everything you talk about, you try, and uh the contents is uh all the tools you need to create magic. So it's uh drama, it's uh misdirection, um everything but the tricks themselves. Uh so instead you you create tricks there. So it's not uncommon for one that any single uh participant create like at least 15 tricks uh each during the week.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Wow, that's amazing! So how how many days does it go over? And how can people get in touch to book one of these?

SPEAKER_03 5:12

It's the last week of July, uh, usually, and uh uh it's six days. So you start on a Monday and it ends on the Saturday. And uh uh there's a website where you can sort of sign up. Uh it's called uh magic hyphenworkshops.com. And um you usually have to be very quick because um uh this edition uh I have done since 2018 and um they fill up within one hour. So from one hour after I've opened the registration forms, all the workshops are full. Oh, yeah, an interesting thing also they are free of charge. So um people don't pay anything for the course themselves, they only pay for uh the room and the meals.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Wow, that's amazing. It sounds like an incredible opportunity for people to really expand and take their uh interest or love for magic in in even more incredible ways.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Oh, yeah, and uh and and the span of participants are pretty good. It's uh it's people who have been into magic for only like a year or something, uh working side by side with fist winners, like uh so there's uh all sorts of levels uh participating. So the the the um um the only common denominator is that all want to take one step further.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Well, that sounds amazing. It sounds like a great opportunity for anyone who wants to take part. So we'll put that link into the show notes as well. So if you've if you're listening and you're driving or you're going for a walk, don't worry about it. We'll put it in the show notes so you can go and check that after. Uh, but do go check it out. I've uh just looked at the website. Tom showed me the website before we start recording, and it really does just look like a great opportunity to learn from some incredible people. But let's

Picking A Personal “Best Of” List

SPEAKER_02 7:13

talk about you, Tom. You are the guest, you are the reason that we're here. Yeah, now your magic is a very I would say I I've used this word quite a lot on the on the podcast. I would say it's quite whimsical, it's quite dreamlike, it's quite experimental in in some aspects. So when it comes to putting a list of your ultimate tricks together, how do you go about creating your list?

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Oh, I I just went uh for tricks I enjoy to perform. That's uh that's my uh only um um uh uh value meter.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Okay, so would these be things that you've done from the very beginning of your career, or are these kind of new things? So you someone that works in lots of different things into your set, or or do you tend to stick with the classics?

SPEAKER_03 8:06

It's actually both. I I have some classics uh that I uh sort of find it difficult to stray away from. Um but I also have uh like um um big spots where I just put in new stuff because I I otherwise I would just get bored by it.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Absolutely. Well, I think it's gonna be a great list. So let's

A Card Trick With Moving Pips

SPEAKER_02 8:31

get into it. So if this is your first time joining us, the idea is we're about to marine Tom on his very own magical island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks, banish one item, take one book, and one non-magic item that he uses for magic. And of course, this is season three, so he gets a welcome package with a normal deck of cards. So that's where we're gonna start. You've just landed on your island, Tom. I hope you enjoy it. We've we've been keeping the place nice for you, and I want you to uh deep into your little welcome packet, take that deck of cards out. What trick would you perform with your ordinary deck of cards?

SPEAKER_03 9:03

With my ordinary deck of cards, um I would probably perform something um I it it depends. Do you have an audience or do you do I don't do it for myself?

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Well, it's your island, so it's your dream island. If you want an audience there, you can have any audience that you want.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Yeah, because it differs because some tricks I can do just for the pleasure of doing them, and no one has to watch them, and then there's uh tricks that I do for uh because I like the reactions of it. So probably the first trick I would do uh is a trick uh a handling of young corners uh transplant, uh which is um in turn based on divergence plocking the pip, and uh uh as as a short um um um description of the trick is that you you um let the person take a card and it happens to be the five of clubs. Uh for some reason it's always five of clubs, but uh um and uh uh it shuffled into the deck, and uh and uh you say you will try to game make it come to the top, and you show the top card and it's the wrong card, it's the four of clubs. And they say, Oh, sorry, if okay, if I don't get uh it to the top, you say, and place the the four aside, you turn the deck over and show the face card, and you say, I always get it to the face if I don't get it to the top. But that's also wrong. It's a three of clubs. And then you okay, then I guess I messed up. Um what was it? And they say it's a five of clubs, and you go, Oh, and you look and then you take the three, and uh let me just get the cards out. So you you take uh the pip off the three, so you are left with the two, and then you take the four and you place the pip onto the four, and now it's a five. So it's basically two color changes, but it looks like you're taking a pip off one card and place it on a different card to correct the mistake. It's quite funny. It's uh it's a bit of a cartoonish uh kind of trick.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Well, at the beginning of the the podcast, I said that to me your magic is always quite dreamlike and quite theatrical. And even in terms of a card trick, when I think of a card trick that you might pick, an animation or uh something where it moves or changes, I think that's exactly where I would have anticipated you you would have gone to. So where where did you learn this effect?

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Uh the trick is an um uh cornicopia uh that um uh was written by Stephen Minch, but it's uh all about Jan Carney's uh creations, and um so it's uh yeah in there. I've just changed the handing a bit uh so it fits myself a bit better.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Amazing. Well, I think that's a great one in your welcome back. Let's go to your main list then. So let's go to position number one. What would you take with you to your desert island?

SPEAKER_03 12:28

I would

Quantum Logic And Creator Mindsets

SPEAKER_03 12:29

take my quantum logic, the free boxes trick that I did on Penn and Teller. And this is a tricky one to explain because uh um the inspiration comes from quantum mechanics, like a physics uh experiment, um, which seem seem to indicate that the particle then can exist in two places at the same time, which is a bit uh um messes with your mind a bit uh when you think about it, but um but apparently on on a subatomic level uh and particle can exist in two places at the very same time. And uh so what I did was I I started to think uh about I wonder how that would look in in uh in uh in a bigger uh situation. And uh around the time I was thinking about this, I also had a column in Genie magazine. Um and each year I sort of set a challenge for myself to make it um uh entertaining to myself to do it because um I had seen so many columnists starting uh the first year very exciting, very interesting, and after a while each of them found a system for writing uh an article, and from that time on it was like they wrote the same article but with different words each time. So they found like a system for cranking out column after column. So I didn't want to end up in that trap, so I I I decided that I will only continue for as long as as it's very difficult to do it. Because the moment it becomes easy, that means I that I've found a system, and from that point it would be pointless to continue. Um so 2014 I decided to make pastiches of other creators. So I tried to make like a Max Maven uh article and tried to figure out what kind of effect would Max Maven would do, what kind of methods would he like, and I tried to write it as him and also illustrate it in his way. And um when it came to Jim Steinmeier that I tried next, um it sort of meshed with this kind of pseudo-scientific um kind of presentation that he likes, and my thoughts about this um of quantum logic, and I just brought it together, and the result became this trick with three boxes where two persons have a box with different contents in behind their backs, and I have a box uh and suddenly I have their contents in my box, and then I have the second person's contents in my box. And um and it also illustrates a different kind of thought I have, uh, which I got from a scriptwriting book. That even if I as a creator have a certain idea, it's often good that you don't low let the performer know what the idea is. Because it it would be easy to go into some kind of complicated explanation uh that oh in quantum mechanics the piece can be there. But I know that as a creator, but me as a performer have no idea what this is. Uh for me, I'm it's just happening, and I'm as uh almost as surprised as uh anyone else um by it. So so that the way when you write something for yourself, you don't need to give you as a performer the same knowledge as you as a creator has.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Now, when it comes to creating this kind of trick, how how do you is this one of those things where you heard the concept and the idea of quantum time and quantum mechanics, and you thought, oh, that's a really interesting thing to put a trick to, and then you start building that, or did you have a trick and you were like, that's a great idea, but I need a hook, I need a way into that trick?

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Um usually it comes about by attacking it from many sides at the same time. Um so it actually started with me finding uh um the Pegasus page by Arthur Emerson and finding uh the trick voodoo by uh Arthur Monroe in uh practical mental effects. And both of them have sort of a similar theme that that something changes when it's out of reach. And I and for a while I was thinking that uh if I do a show I I have to make only perform one but not the other until I realize wait if I mesh them both into one routine, then I can perform them both and I don't have to choose anymore. And uh and I also had this uh kind of uh thinking that I probably have to wait until I'm older to do it because I don't I lack the kind of uh authority that you would need to present this uh the way it was described. And uh so I refrain from doing uh anything with it for several years until I suddenly realize, wait a minute, who decides this? I mean, it should be up to me if I want to do something or not. I I I shouldn't uh conform to preconceived ideas about what's suitable or not. The important thing is that I want to do it. Um so I I sort of meshed uh this together and uh then this idea about doing uh Jim Steinmeer prestige and uh and I had like dozens of possible solutions and nothing sort of meshed. And uh eventually I asked a friend, Peter Rosenrien, like if if Jim Steinmei would do something like this, and I explained the problem to him, well, what do you think he would have done? And he just said, Well, he would you probably take some old standard prop and just adapt it. Uh yeah, he would probably just use some kind of drawer box.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

And I was yes, drawer boxes, it is amazing. Well, I think that's a great one in at number one. Let's go to number two then. So, what would you take in your second position?

Eggs, Timing, And Hidden Method

SPEAKER_03 20:02

That's also another trick of mine, uh, because I I I I like my stuff. Uh, and it's my egg trick, it's called uh things that go clock, and it's uh me and a spectator. So we both um push uh silk into our hands, and it becomes an egg, and it becomes an egg for the spectator as well. But then we both can remove the holes, and it turns out the hole is actually just a sticker, and then we can both crack our eggs, and the spectator has no idea how the plastic egg he started with suddenly is a real egg. So it's uh um this the structure in it is just uh uh delightful. Um and talking about methods um um on a conceptual level is that uh I'm using the one ahead principle and one behind principle in the same trick, which sort of takes all the method and pushes it to the side, so some of the methods is done before the trick even starts. And some of the method happens when people think that the trick is over, which means that in the middle where people are looking the closest, that's nothing to see because and everything has already happened or is about to happen, but when they are looking at it, there's nothing to be seen. So it's um um very pleasing construction.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah, it's playing with the perception of the audience as well. That's what I really like. It's like everyone thinks that they're on the same journey together, and then there's a moment where you pull the rug from under their feet, and suddenly the the reality completely switches for the entire audience.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

That's a little bit of a similar structure in. In the Carlisle card pocket, where you are ahead at one point and behind at a different point. So that the the the sneaky stuff never happens exactly when you think it should happen.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Yeah, I think the the the whole idea of the method, you know, there there are two methods working in tandem, something that happens before and something that's happening live. And you're kind of combining both of those aspects into the routine to allow you to achieve more than what you'd be able to with just one of those solutions. Yeah, I think it's great. Now uh this was in your book. Um, was this in Malstrom? Yeah. So if anyone has that book, now's the time to go get it back out uh and check it out as well. But I think that's a great one. I'm glad that you put those in. Well, I think that's a great one in at number two. Let's go to number three then. What would you put in your third position?

Sponge Balls With An Epic Finale

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Oh, that's a routine that I called Benson Burner, um which is based on the Roy Benson uh uh routine, but I've just taken it in a sort of different direction. And uh it's um it's three soft sponge balls uh that disappear one by one, and uh after all three have vanished, I lift on a ball set that have been standing mouth down and they are underneath. And now I go into a second sequence, so now uh as each ball vanishes, I lift the ball to show that now it's underneath, and another one disappears, and now that's underneath. And at the end there's a cascade of uh like hundreds of balls spurting out from the ball, which is uh sort of a very pleasing image. Uh people who take photos like that. Uh I needed to have like a stage piece, and uh and I wanted something that sort of displayed some kind of sleight of hand, or at least give gave the impression of displaying my passion for sleight of hand. Then I thought it didn't really need to have any actual sleight of hand as long as it looked like the message was this is the passion for sleight of hand.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Where did you go with the bowl? So where did you get the inspiration to change it into a bowl?

SPEAKER_03 24:45

That actually came from a it started with a Paul Harris book. Um in one of his early books he had a routine by Patrick Snowden in it, uh which was um was sort of a one cup routine but with three balls, and um and uh cop is uh the ball itself was uh ungimmicked, but um but there was also always something that wasn't quite satisf. It was also always lacking some kind of satisfaction in it. Because most most of the routines were like these kind of old school clockwork uh constructions where you do a set of moves, and at the end of the set you are automatically back to the beginning there, so you can do the same set of movements again. Uh and the only reason it ends is because you run out of your objects to do it with. Um so a lot of the Slidini stuff and the Diwarner stuff uh follows that kind of thing. That it it's a choreographed set of movements that sort of bring you full circles, like coins for the table. You you start, you show four coins and you show them one by one, and then they vanishes, and you bring the next the coin out from underneath the table, and that's m sets you up to do the sequence again. Um and while there's something it can be something hypnotic about that kind of um choreographed movements, but it's also a bit boring to perform. Like um you very easily disconnect with the audience because that's that's nothing for you to do other than doing this kind of running on a rail track kind of um set of events. So I wanted to change it up a bit. Uh so so therefore the first three vanishes uh are completely different. So that um so that uh I I get this kind of very isolated vanishes to begin with. Um and then the second phase that is uh this kind of clockwork movement. Uh but then I really put the emphasis in it because I try to really make it flowing like uh like a like a wave that never uh ceases to move. And then uh at the end, which uh wasn't obvious, um, because I struggled to figure out what I should end with, and um so I was thinking that uh maybe use an Alexensley idea of producing all the props I had used in the performance up to that moment, but that was too tricky to sort of manage. Like, how do you load like the Shane sticks, for example, into a bowl? You can't uh really do that. And then just by chance, I happened to see a friend have a who had a package of the 10U rabbit explosion. And the uh rabbit explosion was like um the ordinary sponge rabbit trick, but at the end there was a massive load. Not just four or five, it's like hundreds of sponge rabbits as then that just comes out of the hand. And I thought, ah, there we have it. I will do um an explosion of balls at the end. And I as I tried it, I I tried it on the table and it looked very cool. And I I tried it up in the air, and it that also looked cool, and I couldn't decide should I do it on the table or on well I can't choose, so I do both. So that's why I have um like one final load on the table and one up in the air, because I couldn't choose.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

Well, I think it's a great way to end the routine, and it looks brilliant. Now, there are a lot of videos of all of these online, so if you want to go and see it, search it up and watch it. It's brilliant. Uh let's go to number four, then Tom. So, what would you put in your fourth spot?

Coins, Silk, And A Bottle Reveal

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Um that's a routine that I called a toast for charon. And um or caron, maybe. Uh it depends on your language. Um and it's um boil it down. It's a Divan silk and silver with um a patched on bottle production, a Bob Reed bottle production at the end. Um that's more to it than that. I I made some work on the handling, but uh but that's basically it. Um so it's um um so I produce four coins into a wine glass. Uh I take the coin, wrapped it in silk, and the coin disappear. Uh and I fold up the corners uh forming a bag of silk, and then I take invisible coins and toss them, and you can see something fall down into the uh bag of which form is formed by silk. And you do that, and then you show uh that it is indeed the three coins that have reappeared. And then the coins vanish, and it's place a wine bottle turns up, and at the very end you take pick up the wine glass as to say, remember, we started with a wine glass, now I have the wine bottle. And it's um it's very pleasing to do and uh fun to do, and quite um um usually gets very good reactions.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Now, is this something that you would do at the beginning of a set then? Is this your opener?

SPEAKER_03 31:22

It is usually my opener, yeah. Or if I work in an ensemble, so I I have several spots. Uh I I have it as an opening of one of my spots.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Okay. Well, I think just that that moment of you know the the transposition of everything and the the instant appearance, and I think it's kind of got everything. It's just lots and lots of very quick things in a very short amount of time that that just gets the audience engaged straight away.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Um the the title um uh Koron or Sharon is uh is the name of the ferryman over the river styx in uh I think Greek mythology. Ah, okay. And um and uh you paid for the fare, the habit of putting coins on the uh eyes of disease people was to pay for the fare over the river styx. And I came up with this routine uh when I was working on the ferry between uh Stockholm and Helsinki, and I thought that gig was death itself, so that's uh where the name comes from. Like a toast for um for uh Sharon, like um toasting with the coins you need to put over your eyes.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

There we go. Well, if you didn't know before, now you do. You're not gonna look at that trick in the same way again. Now now that we know that. Well, I think that's a great one at number four. Let's go to a number five. So, what's in your fifth spot?

SPEAKER_03 32:55

In

Tears Of Osiris And Leapfrogging

SPEAKER_03 32:56

my fifth spot is a very new piece, it's just a few months old. Um, and uh I call it Tears of Osiris. The Tears of Osiris. It's sort of inspired by uh, yeah, first of all, it's inspired by a trick of um Candy Coursey. Um I don't recall the name of his trick now, but that in turn was inspired by a Paul Harris trick, um, which was sort of a matrix with torn pieces of a card. Um so in that trick you you uh have a card sign and you tear it into four pieces. Um so this is my trick. Card design, you tear it into four pieces, and you put a joker down as sort of a cover card and you place it a bit away on the table. And then these four signed pieces vanished one by one and appeared underneath the joker. Um except that the last piece refuses to vanish. And as you turn it over, you see that it is now a piece of a joker. And you turn over the other pieces, and they are also jokers, and now the cover card has become the signed card, which is now restored.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Wow, that sounds amazing!

SPEAKER_03 34:36

It's uh quite good. Um and I and I'm I'm I'm still becoming friends with it, so I I I still have to struggle a bit uh when I do it, but uh but I it's getting there. Um I'm um it's it's becoming more and more pleasurable each time I do it uh to performing. And it has a rather interesting uh idea in it, uh something that I've been working towards for many years, but I think this is the first time I actually made practical use of this kind of theory I've had. And it's um in one way it it it has to do with my theory that if you have a routine where the same effect happens many times in a row, it's good to put place the most convincing method as number two because the first time you don't do it, people don't really know what to look for. So you can be very bold in the first because no one really knows what to look for. But as soon as you've done it, now people know what to look for. So now is when they lean forward and thinking, ah, now we will catch them. So if you can break them on the second phase, they will give up completely, and then you can be very bold on your third, and every iteration after that, you can be very bold as long as you break them on phase two. Um so that led to a theory I have about um the one ahead uh which I called leapfrog ahead. So in instead of in a routine where you set up for a trick, which you then um like you do the method, which is one ahead, and you reveal the outcome of it as the effect, but if you somehow can leapfrog it, so you set up for something uh further along, so you can do then a bold method in between and then instantly go to that and then reveal the outcome of of the uh one ahead principle, so that's so you so you you in doing that you you get a very powerful second sequence which uh comes is completely without explanation because you've set it up way ahead, and you've had a whole sequence in between before you reveal the outcome. It's uh so I I call I call it for myself, I calling it leapfrogging ahead rather than one ahead.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thought. The idea that you know uh exactly that you just said, the the audience are not clued up to what's about to happen. So it doesn't matter what you do, they're not gonna be ahead of you. The second time they're gonna be more alert, more aware, more willing to try and catch you out. And maybe the third and fourth time at that point they know that you're gonna catch them out, so they will drop their guard a little bit more, and again, you can be a little bit more brazen. And I also love that the kickback ending of that routine, the idea that again, uh a bit like um the effect that you spoke about earlier, uh, things that go cluck, the idea that everyone's following along, and then you pull the rug again from under them. Um, and another thing that I've noticed about your routines is you care quite a lot about structure, and this is another one where the structure follows in such a way that you have uh this reveal which then negates the other reveal, and the audience are catching up with the routine as opposed to being there with you. Is this something that you're gonna publish in a future work?

SPEAKER_03 38:59

Um, well, I I published this one quite recently in a little ebook uh that I called uh Knutkalos, uh Swedish uh title. Um, I thought if Ikea can name their products with a Swedish name, why couldn't I? So I just took it. Um Knutkalos, that means sort of potluck. Like uh everyone is bringing their little thing to the party.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Okay, there you go. If you want to learn that routine, I will 100% be seeking that out because I think that sounds like a brilliant effect. Uh and it's a great, great one in a number five. So let's go to number six then, Tom. What did you put in your sixth spot?

SPEAKER_03 39:39

Ah, there

Two-Cup Cups And Balls Origins

SPEAKER_03 39:40

I put my own Captain Walls routine, uh, which isn't published, but I I've done it for um quite a while. Um in its current shape, it is uh from 2001, I think. As a young magician, I I one of the first medic props I ever bought was a set of uh Harriet's um aluminium aluminum um uh uh cups and balls. And uh I had it for a while and then I realized I I would never do anything with them, so I gave it away. And then a year later I I I got sort of enticed by the idea again that uh I should do something. I so I bought a new set, and after a while I gave it away to someone because I I I couldn't get anything with it, and um and I it continued. I I I must have bought like six or seven sets of cups and balls just to give them away until I figured if I only use two cups, then I I get less of a repetition in it, and that's sort of attracted me. And also the idea that with two cups I require less table space, and around that time I did more and more table hopping magic. Um so with two cups I I could do a sequence and then do it again, and I didn't need to do it a third time, which um sort of it it I liked that idea. Uh so I I started to come up with all sort of weird of uh weird little sequences, and um one was by my friend uh Max Milton, who was sort of um not really a mentor to me, but one who I wanted to have as a mentor. So I in my head he was my mentor, but not in practice. Um he had like a little joke with the cops that I put into mine, and then eventually I found uh uh Tommy Wonders routine. Uh so I brought in uh two sequences from his routine and put it in for my uh routine, and uh and that was actually my pass out of Scandinavia because in 1995, in October, uh I met Tom Wander and I asked him if I could show him my um my routine, and I said, because I've applied a couple of your ideas into it. And uh so I performed it for Tom Wander in '95. And when I was done, he looked up at me and said, Do you want to work in Holland? I said, what? Yeah, do you want to come to the Netherlands and and and uh work a convention? What? And he said, Well, there's a convention there and they have asked me to keep an eye out for interesting people. And I think that someone who is able to fool me with my own technique is interesting. So it turns out that I actually got him with his own technique, and uh and he said it's also interesting because I never seen anyone taking just a part of it because people who look at my routine look at it uh like it has to be done in that order. And uh and uh the reason I publish this was to give people some ideas of how to uh do it. So this is actually the first time I've seen anyone have treat my routine the way I meant it to be treated. Well, that is high praise indeed. Yes. So uh so that convention that he booked me for was the first time I performed outside of Scandinavia. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Wow. Well that's you know, that's amazing. Hopefully it's something that we'll all get to see one day then. Because, you know, if if Tommy Wonder gave you that kind of praise, then you know I feel like we're all in for a big treat if you ever get to uh publish this.

SPEAKER_03 44:27

The the routine uh you can find it on um YouTube. Okay. Uh because I I did it on a Japanese TV show in 2004, I think. And uh so so if you search for Tom Stone and Japanese TV, you can find it.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

There we go. Another thing that I'm gonna have to do straight after this. So, yep, that's great. We're gonna check that out as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

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SPEAKER_01 44:59

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Daryl’s Legacy And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Let's move on to the tail end of your eight, then Tom. So we've got two more items. Let's go to number seven.

SPEAKER_03 46:01

Oh, that's uh one which isn't mine. Uh and it's uh um a packet trick by a Darryl uh called Cardboard Chameleons. And um and it's um it's an important piece for me. Uh uh Daryl was a good friend. Um I I don't think um I don't think we we were close friends, but we were good friends and um uh in two thousand no in nineteen ninety-one I think we spent a week together in uh Gothenburg uh in Sweden because he he was doing a lecture tour in Europe and uh he had a few days off uh which he spent in Gothenburg and um uh it was actually Daryl who told me that I should publish my ideas. So if if uh if it hadn't been for him there might never have become any books. And uh and his uh trick cardboard comedians is uh sort of um it's six ordinary playing cards, there's nothing gaffed with them, and you do a uh like an insane set of transformations with them. And the routine just builds and builds, and and when you think that oh now nothing more can be done with it, then you are only halfway through the routine. And it's it's um it's such a lesson in really wringing everything out of a uh of a trick.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

So I remember this was re-released recently, I think, uh within the past couple of years. And I remember seeing it for the first time and thinking, how uh how are you getting so much out of so little? But then when you see a lot of Daryl stuff, what he was brilliant at was coming up with quirky solutions and ideas and and uh presentations and just milking and milking the most out of the most basic stuff. I think uh what is his his routine? The spot one, uh hole, sorry, uh the one with the different holes, yeah, and that's the same concept that he gets so much out of so little, and you in your brain as a magician, you're thinking there has to be something more going on here, yeah. But there's just not. He was just a genius at putting those things together, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

And uh yeah, I I was um I was destroyed when when he passed away. It's uh it's really, really um uh affected me. And um and also uh reminds you that uh it's it's important to be able to talk about mental health uh as well because it's um what happened to him shouldn't have happened. It's important to know that uh it's um it's not a failure to uh ask for help.

SPEAKER_02 49:42

Yeah, if anyone ever feels like that, for goodness sake, just have a chat with someone that you know, try and get the the help and the support because the one good thing about the magic community is there's always someone who is there to to chat to. I think we'll we all rally around each other when we need to. And I think as soon as you realise that we're in a quite a fortunate position with our industry, then uh yeah, the help is always there. But I'm glad that someone like you is highlighting his work and we're we're keeping his legacy alive because he has some brilliant, brilliant effects. I'm sure that there's more coming out with Murphy's over the next however many years. So we'll see more. But that does lead us to number eight, then Tom.

Max Maven’s Seek And Pure Method

SPEAKER_02 50:29

So what is in your final position?

SPEAKER_03 50:31

Uh it's uh Max Maven trick, and uh it's uh trick um that strangely not many people know about, but uh the trick is called seek, like um like in searching seek. Uh and it's from a book called uh sabbatical, and it's just amazing. It's uh it's um it's a hybrid of everything like because you have anagrams in it, you have binary mass, um you have choreography, you have like um you have uh all sorts of deceptions mixed into it. And it it's just and and the trick is that you you show uh like um bunch of cards, maybe uh uh like four cards uh of words. Each card has like eight, nine words on them. So in in total it's like 200 words, and you ask someone to just pick any card at random and just think of any of the words at random, and then without asking any questions, you just can reveal what word they are thinking about. There's a little of things that have to be done in between, but uh but it's it's uh it's nothing secret. Everything you do is is done overtly. You you don't have to hide anything. Uh there's nothing uh like sneaky going on covertly. Everything you do is out in the open, and it's just amazing. I I can't I can't figure out how the hell he thought to come up with that. It's um yep, uh just just mind-blowing, uh, it is.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

Yeah, this was one of the the books. So it comes up every now and again on secondhand websites, and it's it's always in the higher price range, uh, and it's also not in Max's name. So this is Phil Goldstein, which was his original publishing name before he went over to Max Maven. So if you ever see his name on stuff, just grab it because it's gonna be full of gold. But I think that's what Max was really good at as well. He was great at like systematic methods. When you read his colour series, there's some really clever, not mathematical, I guess it's like a logical thing where he his brain must have functioned in a certain way where he could see patterns and he could see the way things form differently, and he would put that into a trick. And I think that's what he was brilliant at.

SPEAKER_03 53:32

Oh, yeah. He he definitely had um his preferences, he's a he was very uh specific as a creator. Um and I I kind of you you can sort of it if if you if you take a couple of his tricks and just remove his name and mix it together with some other people's tricks, you can always spot a Max Maven trick. Um even if you have someone else rewrite it, it's just something about the construction that uh just makes it into um yeah, you can never confuse a Max Maven trick for anyone else's trick.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

And his material is still relevant today. If you go back and read his older work, it still stands the test of time. You can take anything from his books, yeah, and it will still work perfectly today. Yeah, his video mine series, three DVD set, which one of my favorite DVD sets growing up. It's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 54:39

And he also had this other completely other side, uh, uh because he had the stuff he performed himself or or uh and the stuff he was interested in. But then he had his uh humorous side, which often come came into view in his packet tricks, uh, which very often were like visual puns, like like often some kind of handling he invented just to reach a certain end, which was just uh uh funny. Um I did a tribute act to Max at uh the Mad Castle last uh spring. No, last autumn. Uh and I I put it on uh YouTube, so it's uh the Max Maven set, and it c contains loads of these special puns.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Amazing. Well, I think everyone's afternoon is just gonna be spent looking at Tom Stone videos, I think, and and checking up Tom Stone uh PDFs, which I'm gonna be doing. But I think that's a great way to close it out. So we started with uh Transplant, which was a version of Pluck in the Pip. We had Quantum Logic, Things That Go Cluck, Benson Burner, a Toast for Sharon, Tears of Something, and I couldn't get that last word.

SPEAKER_03 56:03

Uh Osiris, uh it's uh name of um Egyptian god that was torn to pieces and then became whole again.

SPEAKER_02 56:12

Okay, Osiris. Okay. Uh we've got cups and balls, we had carbled chameleons, and we ended with seek. I think that's a really interesting list. It's certainly not one that we I don't think we're gonna have again, or that we've had a lot, you know. All of that is gonna be pretty new to a lot of people, which I think is great. But

Banishment Pick And A Theory Rant

SPEAKER_02 56:34

let's get on to the controversial stuff, Tom. We we are gonna banish something. So I want you to imagine that you're about to dig a big sandy hole. You're gonna throw something inside, never to be seen again. What are you gonna banish?

SPEAKER_03 56:47

So, what I want to banish then is um the fitsky trilogy. I I mean, usually not for book burnings, but uh for the trilogy I I I'm willing to make an exception. I I think the the more uh uh fitsky books you burn, the better the world of magic will become.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

And why do you think that?

SPEAKER_03 57:12

Well, first of all, it's being recommended a lot to young magicians by people who have never read the books themselves. And uh uh because I that happened to me when I was like 19 or something like that. Um a bunch of people, not not not one, two, it was at least two in ten people said that oh you seem to like the theoretical side, you should read the Fisky trilogy, and um and I did. And I really tried to apply uh everything that was said in them, and uh and instead of things becoming better, I noticed that all my magic became worse. The more I tried to apply from it, uh the tricks became worse and uh and uh and the response became less. And and eventually I was had to ask the people who have recommended me that how how do you solve this when you try to do it like that? And and you then get the opposite of reactions, and and they said, What? I don't know what you're talking about. And I said, Well, on this and this page, uh the advice he says about that and that. Uh I can't make it work. I said, Oh, I didn't know that way, I never read the books myself, they said. And and each person, I I went through all the people had recommended, and none of them had read the book themselves. So they had no idea what was in it. Uh like all the examples are dated, uh, all the theories are badly thought out. Um, so it's just one bad idea stuck on another bad idea, and uh the only reason that anyone even knows about it is because even though this guy was completely incompetent at it, he was the very first who tried to make some kind of theoretical book about magic. So the reason people recommend it isn't because it's good or useful, but because he was the first. And um, but by now there's uh loads of theory in uh spread out in books and theory that actually works. So there's no reason for anyone ever to pick up these horrible books again.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

Okay. We're gonna take all of the books, we'll keep we'll keep one set just for historical artifact, and everything else we're gonna put into that big sandy hole, and it's gone. You're never gonna have to see or talk about it again. Wonderful. It's all gone. Now we've referenced books and people can't see it, but behind you you have a big old library of books, and you know, you've referenced Paul Harris in this, you've referenced Daryl in this. Let's find out where you're gonna go with your book, then.

One Book For A Lifetime Of Ideas

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Okay, so let's find out. You've got one book to take with you, Tom. What book would you take with you?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:34

Well, that was tricky. Um, I um the first idea was I should probably take something massive then. Uh maybe the James Files, the Stuart James books, or maybe his first book, the um Stuart James, the first fifty years. Um but then not everything in those books are good. So so then I thought maybe instead take something that maybe isn't is as big, but everything in it is good. So then I started to think, and and uh uh so anything by Max Maven was uh on my mind, or anything by John Carney. I I love John Carney's books, they are really interesting and uh good material and good thinking and good theories. John Carney's books are widely uh underrated, I think, um even by people who rate them high. Because um yeah, they are really good. But in the end, I decided on one book and it's uh The Conjuring Anthology by Jim Stemeier. Um, yeah, first of all, uh this is uh uh his collection of uh articles from the Magic magazine, um, where he had a column where he each month just described a little uh parlor illusion. So it's material that have been created and collected for uh many years. Um it's so varied, it's it's so um reading the book is like uh going on a roller coaster because uh you you never know from one page to another what it will become, and uh and it it has everything from like um uh polytrics with silks to cartridge and uh and um that there's something with that mix that uh really uh attracts me. And uh and the the closest thing I can think about is Bruce Elliott's books. Um if going with more dated material, but this this is uh like uh like um the current era um of of uh really good collection of of good magic.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Yeah, Jim Steinmeier seems to be one of the people where you can pick up any of his works and there's always an absolute killer effect in there, a great gem in there. I remember having his uh what were his uh booklets? They were like large book booklets, and he had three of them, I think it was.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:44

Uh Impossibilities, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

So, and that was absolutely full of incredible, incredible ideas. He you can just always rely on him to have a great thought.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:55

Yeah, I I I find him very inspirational, and uh so yeah, if um if I only can bring one book, uh that's the book, the conjuring anthology.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:07

Okay, so let's go to your item then. So you're

Chocolate Choice And Where To Find Tom

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

allowed to take one object or one item that is not inherently used for magic, that you do use for magic. So what would you take?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:19

Well, I actually struggled a bit with it because I I didn't quite understand what it meant in the letter I I got. So um I I so I I was thinking I I have a routine with um called quiz sport where um two people are um picking questions from a bag and for some reason one of them gets really difficult questions and the other one is only picking easy questions and then at the end the bag where I've taken the bags is suddenly filled with the prizes they won. And um so the thing I might bring, which isn't magic but I use for magic, is the first price, which is chocolate. So I I might bring a lot of chocolate to the island.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

Okay, let's get really controversial. Okay, let's let's go to where everyone really wants to talk about what is your preferred chocolate choice, Tom.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:33

Anything Swedish. Anything Swedish, so Swedish chocolate. We're going for Swedish chocolate. Uh uh absolutely not American chocolate.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:42

No. Well, what about have you had UK chocolate?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:46

Uh UK chocolate is uh on the right side of things.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

Belgium chocolate, also very nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:51

Belgium chocolate, also, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:53

Very, very nice. Great. Well, now we've also got Tom Stone's chocolate choice, and I think that's a great way to close out your list. So we from the very top we had Transplant, Quantum Logic, Things That Go Cluck, Benson Burner, A Toast for Sharon, Tears of Osiris, I think I've got that right. Cups and Balls, Cardboard Chameleon Seek, Your Banishment is the Fisky trilogy, your book is the Conjuring Anthology, and the item going with you is a bar of chocolate. I think that's a great list and a great way to close it out. Now, Tom, if people want to do find out about the workshops, I know that we said we'll put the link below. But if anyone wants to find out more about you and your books and your lectures and all of that good stuff, where can they go to?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:39

Well, I I have a site for ebooks called uh Farg Magic. Double uh double magic.com. Um that's where I sell my uh magic related stuff because I I I don't I didn't want to mix that together with my uh website for me as a performer. Contact me through email or Facebook and they say uh uh would you like to come to us and lecture? And I say uh I don't know. Uh yes, why not? Of course. Yes, I want nothing rather uh than that, and um um and then they say so how much do you charge? And say, Charge? Uh I don't know. Uh maybe uh what what do you people usually charge? And uh so that's a confused banter back and forth, and then eventually I arrive and I do a lecture.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for your time, Tom. It's been lovely to have you on. Again, you're another guest that we've wanted on here for a very long time, so it's great to finally have you on.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:53

It's been a pleasure talking with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

And of course, thank you all for listening. And like Tom just said, please go check out those workshops. It was magicdasworkshops.com. It looks like an absolute brilliance time. It looks like if if you're just getting into magic and you've just discovered these podcasts and you want to explore more, it really does sound like one of the most incredible places to go. You're gonna be learning from some of the best in the industry. So please go there. Do support Tom. Go check out those uh PDFs on his website as well, and of course, go spend the afternoon on YouTube watching some of those tricks. That's what I'm gonna be doing after work today. Uh, so thank you, of course, for listening, and we'll see you again next week. See you later. Bye-bye.

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