On the Spectrum with Sonia Krishna Chand

Exploring the Intersection of Policing and Mental Health with Tom Smith

• Sonia Krishna Chand • Season 2 • Episode 30

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Tom Smith, a retired NYPD officer and current host of the Gold Shield Show, joins me on "On the Spectrum with Sonia" to discuss the often unseen intersection of law enforcement and mental health. Inspired to follow his father's footsteps and seeing the strong camaraderie and "family" formed within the community,  Tom aimed to recreate that for his own life and found just that. 

The conversation takes a deeper look at the intricacies of mental health in policing, emphasizing the vital role of mental health support within the justice system. We discuss different aspects of mental health within law enforcement, those in the criminal justice system, and education that both law enforcement officers and mental health professionals need to learn of each other. 

Towards the end, we tackle the societal pressures on police officers, magnified by public events like the George Floyd incident. Tom and I discuss how tools like body cameras can enhance accountability and serve as training resources. We discuss the necessity of communication skills and effective strategies to manage mental health crises, advocating for ongoing collaboration between law enforcement and mental health professionals. To cap off the episode, I'm excited to announce the upcoming launch of my book, "Dropped in a Maze," at Creative Con in Chicago, and I invite you to join our journey by subscribing to the podcast across major platforms.

Speaker 1:

Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of On the Spectrum with Sonia, a podcast where we discuss autism spectrum, mental health challenges and anybody who's overcome any adversity to leave people feeling inspired, encouraged, full of hope, love and connection, especially in a world where we are constantly trying to be disconnected from one another. Did you know that police officers are more likely to have PTSD than your average population? And did you also know who's overrepresented in the criminal justice system? Are people with mental health issues? Know who's overrepresented in the criminal justice system? Are people with mental health issues here to talk about today's challenges and intersectionality between law enforcement and mental health? We have Tom Schilt. He is, or Tom Smith. Sorry, tom Smith. What am I talking about? Tom Smith from the Gold Shield Show. I love. It's a widely popular podcast. He's had amazing guests on his show and I'm so honored that he's come on here today. Tom Smith is a retired NYPD. He joined in 1990 and served for 30 years, and so, without further ado, let's just please welcome Tom Smith to the show.

Speaker 2:

Hey Sonia, how are you?

Speaker 1:

Hey, how are you doing? Thank you so much for coming on here today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 1:

So, tom, can you tell us a little bit about you? What inspired you to go into the police force, what you know like? Tell us a little bit about your upbringing, any particular thing that kind of sparked you and was like, oh, let me, you know, let me go into this route.

Speaker 2:

Well, I had a big spark in my life and that was my dad. He was a retired NYPD detective and I grew up with that. You know he served in the 50s, the 60sies and the seventies when the city was kind of another world than it is now. So I grew up in that world and I grew up as as every little boy. You know, my dad being my hero and wanting to be like him. Uh, I would steal his shield off his dresser when he got home and chase my sisters around Cause I the detective and it's just everything I always wanted and what I wanted to do. There really was no kind of 1A in my life. I was going to go down this route and do the very best I could at doing it and luckily in 1990, had the opportunity to do that and was in the best police department in the world for 30 years and enjoyed every minute of it Not every minute, I shouldn't say that.

Speaker 2:

You know, we have, we all have our days that are bad and so forth, but it was everything I thought it would be, and even more times, even more at times.

Speaker 1:

So, from watching your dad be in the police force, what was something that you know, you saw out of it, that you were able to observe, that you were like, oh wow.

Speaker 2:

I could see myself doing this too. The hard work that goes into it and the connection and friendship that he had with his partners that always resonated. You know we would go to precincts that he worked in, you know, on the way to a Yankee game or after a Yankee game, and it was always like walking into someone's house. It wasn't like a work environment. It was weird just how bonded everyone was in that room, in that squad room or whatever it might have been. And then going to like precinct picnics with him and outings and seeing everyone the way they were meant a lot to me and I tried to do the same thing and still do the same thing as I go on with life and in the police department. But that was a big part of it for me.

Speaker 1:

So it seems like there was like a big sense of camaraderie, apart from the work itself. It seems like it really truly was, even though as cliche as it may seem, but it seemed like they were a family.

Speaker 2:

Oh, very much. You know you relied on each other. They would come. They would come to barbecues, they would come to weddings, they would come to you know, whatever was going on. It was the list of guys from work or girls from work and that was at that table and it just was the thing. They would come down to our house down the Jersey Shore, you know, for a weekend. You know families. I still one of my dad's partners who, tragic unfortunately, had just passed away last year, unfortunately had just passed away last year I still, to this day, stay in touch with their family. My sisters do, that's how, and they worked together in the late 60s and early and mid 70s. And we're still friends with Joe's family even today.

Speaker 1:

That is such an amazing quality to have, you know, an amazing thing to have, where you know people stay connected and really truly treat each other like family and not just people.

Speaker 2:

You just clock in and clock out with Right, like you actually form that connection, form that bond when you joined in 1990, did you also see that same replica in your cohort of people, like you saw with your father? Yeah, you know, it was kind of something I was expecting because I thought it was the norm. So once it did happen and you get so close to the people you're working with, and after your shift you'd go out, you'd get something to eat, and then when I got married, like I just said, an entire table, two tables full of people I worked with, you know, and coming to christenings and coming to birthdays and all that was just the normal thing to do. And even to this day, staying in touch with people that I work with I mean, my old partner is still one of my good friends that we talk to each other all the time. I just talked to him the other day.

Speaker 2:

And it's just that thing, that it's the understanding that you're putting your life in someone's hands and you're hoping they come through and you come through for them, and that's an incredible bond that sticks with law enforcement officers throughout a lifetime.

Speaker 1:

So so it seems like you know it was a very rewarding experience for you. Ultimately, you know it was also because of the kind of connections you made. But talk, let's talk a little bit about the work itself. Now, when you were in the force, does anything kind of particularly stand out for you in terms of any cases you've worked on? Any case you've came across that perhaps impacted you in some way, shape or form?

Speaker 2:

Oh, we could do an entire show just on that, sonia. Oh, we could do an entire show just on that Sonya there's, there were so many. You know I had the good fortune of having a very good career and being involved in a lot of different things, from patrol to. You know. I was in a really bad shooting in 1993 with three armed guys that one of our officers got shot during it. He survived, but it was a, you know, big, impactful event that happened. That, you know, still to this day. Every once in a while it pops into my head. You know what we went through that day to very great cases of, you know, being deployed to Afghanistan for three months searching for a New York Times reporter who was kidnapped by an al Qaeda group and working with a Navy SEAL team and the CIA and then eventually getting him out like we did. So that was one of those highlights, and you know another big one was stopping a school shooting in the school that two of my kids were in.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, you know, was my case along my partner from the FBI and stopping it, you know, a couple of days before it was planned to happen, and arresting the individual who was the main perpetrator in it.

Speaker 1:

Oh my goodness, that must have hit you doubly hard because it was at a school that your kids are at.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, that was an interesting one and I've done, you know, many shows just on that case and the the part of it of finding out that it was that school, which was my, you know, our local school, and having to race against the time that we figured the event was going to happen or the attack was going to happen, and getting enough evidence and everything we needed to arrest this person, on top of thinking of you know my kids at that school and many other people.

Speaker 2:

you know, all my kids went to the same school, so I knew the teachers, I knew the principal very well, you know.

Speaker 1:

so it wasn't just my kids, it was friends and teachers that I knew who were still at that school, that we had to, you know, prevent this from happening know, prevent this from happening, Wow, and so so I can only imagine how that must have been, had you know what kind of effect it must have had on you.

Speaker 2:

Just like, like that visceral reaction that you must have come across, yep, not sleeping a lot. You know working. You know my partner and I did. You know she did a phenomenal job with certain things that she was great at that we got into his social media accounts and was able to see a variety of things that he was talking about and posting and all that which led to even more evidence against him and eventually getting enough to arrest him.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm so glad that you were able to prevent such a tragedy, because there's so much going on. You know, you hear about this now on the news quite a bit. There are quite a bit of cases that have come up, you know, and made national news, you know, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and that was, you know, that played a part in it. You know, our little town here almost became a town known on the other side of the world. You know, for tragedy Again, you know, like you said, we've had so many and that was certainly on our mind to prevent this, obviously, but how close it came to being a worldwide event and, yeah, that was, that was one of the good ones that I look back on and thanking God that, you know, give me the ability to do it and the timing to do it and the thankfully, preventing it.

Speaker 1:

Well, I want to commend you for all the things you have done and all the work you have done. You know you really have done amazing work in your career and you know done, you know the you know very commendable and respectable work. So, back in your time when you were serving and you starting in 1990, ending 30 years later, you know a lot has changed, obviously in terms of policing throughout the time and what have you noticed to be different now and what it was for you when you were in the force?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know what Things were. You know not to simplify, but things were seemed simple, easier back then. It's dangerous, you know, scary all that stuff, but you went to work, you did your job, you had the backing. Like you know, later on in my career, around 1994, when Rudy Giuliani became the mayor and Bill Bratton became the police commissioner, the whole tone of the NYPD completely changed the way we work, the support that we had and the very simple message of go be a cop. All of you join the police department to be cops, go be cops, go arrest bad guys. And we got your back. To be cops, go be cops, go arrest bad guys. And we got your back.

Speaker 2:

And going into work every day and having that you know knowledge or knowing that the administration had your back made your job easier. Because, as the polar opposite is of today, having the specter of these radical DAs looking over police officers' shoulders, waiting for them to make a mistake and pouncing on them and criminal charges against police officers, the last thing that police officers need to do is have that on their mind while they're trying to do something to prevent a crime, sometimes saving their own lives. You know, in a fight or you know police officers get in fights. It's part of the job and to know that they're allowed to defend themselves is a big deal in today's policing. And there's a lot of departments and administrations out there that don't have officers' backs and that's why you see today more and more and more officers getting hurt and getting shot because they do hold back a little bit, because they don't want to get in trouble, and that gets them hurt.

Speaker 1:

Right, and you know, and we talk about, like, mental health with cops, right, and we talk about the intersectionality between mental health and cops. Now, in the wake of George Floyd, there had been talks about having social workers accompanying cops to calls, accompanying cops to calls. It's been widely circulated rumors or talks, whatever people classify it as, but it's been talked about of that. Can you share a little bit of light on what your thoughts are about those things and what seems to be problematic in some ways with that?

Speaker 2:

problematic in some ways with that. I understand the questions or the possible policies coming up with doing that. I get it. But the problem with policing is nothing scripted, nothing is okay, no job is simple, no job is routine or no call. We say job at ENYPD, sorry, you know, no call is routine and everything can change in a absolute second.

Speaker 2:

So when police officers show up to a scene that maybe a social worker can help out in, that situation is still very volatile. So now, on top of a possible problem with who you're going there to deal with or talk to, now you have to worry about the safety of someone else that's at that scene and that can sway the judgment of officers. It can make the situation more of a kind of volcano than it may be already. Is there a place for social workers to respond to a scene? 100%. But I think it's got to be scheduled out a little more and worked out a little more than as simple as some conversations are of yeah, just let a social worker go with the cops to a job that's. That's not a good idea, because like.

Speaker 2:

I said, I've been in so many situations, sonia, that you you walk into a situation or a job and you think it's one thing and in three seconds it is completely different, seconds it is completely different. And you have to think really quick and even to protect yourself or to just kind of adjust to the situation. To have someone else at that scene can be problematic.

Speaker 1:

So in what circumstances would that even be possible to have things scheduled out more so that mental health workers, like social workers, can come in right and help out in situations? And where can you see room for growth between service providers such as mental health professionals and police officers and law enforcement working more together in certain situations?

Speaker 2:

I think, as far as the schedule goes, it could be something as simple as the police officers knowing the person who needs help because they go there so often. So if one conversation takes place with that individual of hey listen, we're going to bring someone the next time we come that you can talk to, that might be an inviting scenario to the person you're dealing with. Could it be something at a scheduled talk at a hospital or a facility or whatever, if that person ends up being there and the police are there. You know there's so many different ways that I think both can work at the same time. But it's just got to be. It's got to be thought out a little bit more and not as simple as some people had said of just yeah, they can go even so.

Speaker 2:

I mean, there was some talk about just letting social workers by themselves go to certain calls. That is certainly not a good idea Because, like I said, when you get a phone call or 911 call of a situation, it's kind of a one-dimensional piece of information. All you're doing is hearing someone talk about something. You can't get a full view of what that is until you get there. Get a full view of what that is until you get there, and you might be putting someone in real danger that's not trained and not equipped to handle that situation. So that's what I mean by. I think more research is needed, but it can be done.

Speaker 1:

And how would you recommend? Then let's say, something goes through what are some areas that perhaps mental health professionals can be trained more in? And on that other side, where do you kind of wish or hope for mental health professionals to be trained in? When it comes to law enforcement, what would you like?

Speaker 2:

us more to understand. Wow, that's a great question that really is is going to be at the top of everyone's list when it comes to the mental health of law enforcement officers, because the numbers are so incredibly bad and higher than they've ever been, and the root of that needs to be explored why, like? Why is it so different now than it has been, and what's the stresses going on? And I think the more social workers work with and observe police officers at work and maybe at home, can get an understanding of just how dynamic and how complex being a police officer can be, from going to work and then having to not really bring your work home but you do sometimes and don't take what's going on at home and bring it to work, which happens and that all culminates into some bad and dark situations you know, you think of I just said this on a show yesterday most people will deal with, maybe on an average, five traumatic events in their life.

Speaker 2:

Police officers I would deal with five traumatic events in an hour in an eight hour tour. Now take that one hour divided by your times, it by eight in one day. You're doing that maybe every single day for years. That adds up and that gets to you and I think, when police officers finally figure out that it's not a stigma anymore to go and talk to someone and reach out to someone. And that's where I think social work can really get embedded into law enforcement even more than it is now to assist police officers in what's going on in their careers and at home.

Speaker 1:

What have you seen, you know, or what are been made familiar with, or when, when you talk about the interplay between being at your job and then home life, what have you noticed a lot of, or when it comes to, like how home impacts also everything, because everything kind of interfolds. Right, you know you have your home life, you got your work life, you know you have life with, you know your friends, you know you have your, like other areas of your life you like to attend to. Right, so, like, how does that also interplay? What have you noticed, you know, when it comes to, like, cops going home from work, what is? What have you seen or heard of or noticed?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, in my I can, I can use myself as an example and I think you'll get it once. I, once I say it, I've been with the same girl for 35 years. So take everything I've done in my career, and still with the same person for 35 years. And why is that? The communication that we have and always had with each other was always paramount in our relationship. Coming home and talking about the night you just had is healthy. Are you going to go into integral details of what happened on one particular call? No, and I don't mean that, but you can get something off your chest and off your mind by simply coming home and going wow, yeah, that was a rough night. All right.

Speaker 2:

Hey, what happened? Yeah, we had this call and this happened and that happened and not have to go into the you know maybe gory details of it, but at least to get it out, because I don't care if you're a police officer or whoever. If you hold things in, everyone has a breaking point, everyone has a boiling over point and when it boils over it can be really ugly because you're taking that boiling over and either bringing it back to work you're not performing at the level you should or you're bringing it home and domestic abuse starts, alcoholism starts, drug abuse starts. You know, lack of paying attention to your kids start, depression start.

Speaker 2:

I mean, there's so much that goes into this job and that's why people think that police work is just a physical job. It is not. It is so much more mental than physical that people need to realize and, you know, offer help or have police officers not get jammed up for reaching out for help. It's okay not to be okay, you know, especially in our profession, and officers need to know that it's okay to go talk to someone.

Speaker 1:

Oh, 100%.

Speaker 1:

You know, and I could tell you this, in my career, you know, being a therapist, my career, you know, of being a therapist, I've had a couple cop clients come in before and you know one of them always you know he actually was protective over me in some ways and I'll tell you it's it's not easy.

Speaker 1:

You know they go through so much and you know there's a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of people, a lot of mistrust, you know, with policing, and you know I was fortunate enough to gain a different perspective with some of the work I've done with cops that have come into my office and have retained me as their therapist. And you know, and it opened my eyes to a different perspective. Now, when everything started happening you know, events of 2020, right, you had the George Floyd incident, you had a lot of outrage, you know, and I where do you see? And so you talk about this being a mental job as well as a physical job how do you think all of those events also impacted the mentality of police officers too, with everything, all those events, all the protests.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it made a certain impact because, again, like I said earlier, that that fear of oh my God, if I do this wrong I'm going to get prosecuted, and that is the worst thing to be thinking when you're, you know, on a job or on the street and I think that's going to get back to you. Know, I don't want to say normal, but I think you know what I mean. You know where the focus of police officers on the street need to be preventing crime, keeping people safe. And there's differences between mistakes of the heart and mistakes of your brain, mistakes of your heart going and doing the right thing, but maybe something doesn't line up and go 100% right. That has to be evaluated the correct way.

Speaker 2:

If you're maliciously going out and doing something wrong, that's a totally different ballgame and that has to be dealt with a certain way, which every good cop will tell you is okay. Good know, good cops hate bad cops more than anybody, more than the public, more than everybody. So if it's mistakes that you're consciously doing, that has to be dealt with in a certain way. But you know, when you're trying to just do the right thing and situations get chaotic and to come up with judgments immediately because of one video or one account or one witness has a problem, you know, in my mind, because nothing is that easy to go through a situation and kind of pick it apart a little bit of who's and why's and what happened. I think needs to be done a little bit more today to put police officers' jobs at ease a little bit in their head when they're going into work.

Speaker 1:

And I've heard you say before that you do agree now with the video cams being on police officers. I've heard you discuss this on other platforms or other shows that you've been on. You are in agreement with that. You are in agreement with documenting. You are in agreement with seeing them how they're doing their job and also using it for feedback for feedback.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah, I think I was always in favor of body cams because I always thought it was going to do more good than harm to the police officer. Because if you live by this statement and I think a lot of us do that 99% of what police officers do are good, then body cams are good. So it's going to prove that 99 percent thing is correct and it's going to show people how fast things happen. You know you're now in the kind of view or body of that police officer and how many times I've talked to people that go oh my God, that whole thing only took 12 seconds. That go oh my God, that whole thing only took 12 seconds. Yeah, exactly, you know.

Speaker 2:

And it gives people a different evaluation or a different view of how fast things can go wrong, how dangerous it is. And you know it can also be used as a great training tool Down the line. You take these videos and you can now pick it apart into training scenarios, into police academies, and watch this. What would you do in discussions, you know, of what you're seeing can take place at an academy level to get them ready for the street?

Speaker 1:

Sure, sure, you know, and you know I kind of mentioned in the beginning of the show, as we were starting off and kicking off, you know the rates of PTSD within cops. You know that kind of goes to your point of how you see, like, are you seeing an average of five traumatic events in an hour, right, right. And now you take that and multiply because you are working obviously more than one hour on the force, you probably have a scheduled time. We talk about PTSD and then we also have talk about the intersectionality in the sense of you see a lot of people with mental illness that are overrepresented in the criminal justice system in and of itself, system in and of itself. Can you kind of give us some, just kind of shed some light on your thoughts behind this, what you think you know, what's happening here with the funneling of people in the system? Like just using your knowledge of what you know?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know there's, hey, there's a big broken piece to the criminal justice system that has to be worked out and changed and fixed and all that. Do people with mental health issues deserve to be in a, you know, general population jail? No, that's not going to work. It's not going to work for anybody. So there needs to be something set up on a better level of addressing that.

Speaker 2:

And maybe, you know, developing and putting more into facilities than jail, you know, but that's a case by case basis and I don't mean to kind of throw everyone into one you know category of everyone with mental illness is OK and doesn't belong in jail. I didn't mean that, you know, you know, but I think it it has to be evaluated and checked and talked about a little more than it is, because it just kind of becomes a revolving door. You know you have a violent criminal that might be mentally unstable and it gets addressed that way and he's OK, put him back on the street and it just keeps happening because you're not getting the help that he needs. Jail's not the help. Not everyone gets rehabilitated in jail. So just continuously doing that and then throwing him back on the street because they did their time is not working. That's obvious. So that has to be addressed on a really comprehensive level.

Speaker 1:

And where do you see room for growth in the criminal justice system, like in terms of, you know, with police officers, right? Where do you see room for growth when it comes to handling people with mental illnesses? Where do you think it? Where can you find, like there's, you know, some changes could be made? And what would you if you had the chance, right, to be in charge of creating a difference, creating change in the system? If you could, right, if you had that power to say, tom smith, we are going to give you all this power. Uh, we're going to give you this position where you get to make changes to the system at large.

Speaker 2:

What would you do? Well, I'm going to go on two thoughts of this One. The first thing I'm going to tell you is police departments. Police departments need to be trained better and more often when dealing with these situations. There needs to be much more training and much more money that goes into training in situations or about situations like this, because the more you're trained, the more you're hearing from experts who deal with it every day, the more equipped you're going to be to go out there.

Speaker 2:

The other thing I would do is and I brought this up one other time it more equipped you're going to be to go out there. The other thing I would do is and I brought this up one other time, it's funny you asked this question I would set up a special section of a district attorney's office that is a kind of task force of district attorneys, police officers and mental health experts into dealing with certain cases that fit their criteria and what is the best route and what is the best way to get that person the help they need. Some do deserve to be in jail, some need to be evaluated a different way for a facility, but I think if you set some sort of task force up within a district attorney's office that covers everyone that's needed to make these decisions, I think would be a really good start.

Speaker 1:

I think that's a fabulous idea. I think that definitely there needs to be more education on both ends right, Both for not only police officers to understand mental health situations, but also for mental health professionals to understand more of the type of work involved.

Speaker 2:

I totally agree.

Speaker 1:

What is a piece of advice you'd give to somebody? Let's say they come up to you and they say hey, tom, you know I want to be a cop. I think it's so cool, I want to be a cop. You know what's a piece of advice you'd give to all people who are aspiring to be cops, and what is one thing you'd want people to walk away with?

Speaker 2:

And it's a great question. I love answering this question and when I give this answer, a lot of people don't expect this answer. All right, I've said this in police academies that I've spoken in. I've given this answer on other podcasts. I've given this answer at colleges I've spoken to.

Speaker 2:

The number one thing that you can do to get ready to be a police officer is hone in and make your communication skills the best they can be. If you can't talk to someone, you are not going to be successful. If you don't have the skills to evaluate a situation and have a discussion and talk to another human being the way you need to as a police officer, you are not going to be successful. You know communications is all over the world. I can talk to a kid in the Bronx and go over to Afghanistan and talk to a kid in Kabul, kind of the same way. It's a skill that is missing from law enforcement and it's only going to make you better as your career goes from patrol to being a detective and having the skills to interview someone, interrogate someone, talk to a witness, talk to a victim's family. If you can't do that, you're going to be shot and lost. I don't mean shot shot. I mean you're just you're not going to be good at what you do.

Speaker 2:

And I tell everyone that if there's one thing physically, yeah, you can work out, you can run, you can go to the range, you know and fire your weapon and become good at that. You can take a martial arts class. That's great. But what's the common denominator in everything I just rattled off All of those you practice at? You go to the range and practice. You go to your martial arts class and practice. You go to the gym all the time.

Speaker 2:

You need to do that with your communication skills every day to get better at it. You just can't sit behind your desk and go. Okay, let me go outside today and talk to two people. You need to constantly do it, and observing is the other part of it. Not to go on too long, I'm sorry, but other people that you're around watch them. Watch a more experienced detective or officer talk to someone and take what they're doing and observe and take ideas of what you're watching maybe a more experienced detective or officer do at a scene. How are they talking to someone? How are they like kind of bringing your situation down to a manageable level and not ramping it up. Those are skills that are really really important in law enforcement.

Speaker 1:

And how would you suggest now, when you say to improve communication skills, what are some key tips that you can give to somebody who, let's say, may not be the best communicator or may need help in that area to help to grow?

Speaker 2:

Act like yourself, be yourself, don't be this mythical cop. That is one way, and stern and cold, and because I have to be like that in my job in order that I don't get walked on or people take advantage of me, that is necessary at a point in time, but not all the time. To show people you're human, you laugh, you joke, you can, you know, cry with them. To show them that means the world to people. We used to all the time, sonia, especially on patrol, and I remember doing it in narcotics. If we were driving around there were kids playing basketball on the corner. Yeah, you know what Time out for 10 minutes. Park the car, get out, play a ballgame with them, throw a football down the street, go long Go. You know we did that all the time.

Speaker 2:

Now, what does that do? That shows those kids that you're not a robot, that maybe you're not everything the media is saying about you and something at some point is going to happen in that area and those kids are going to be there and they're going to remember when you played ball with them for five minutes or laughed with them or joked with them to say, hey, what happened? Oh, yeah, this guy did this. Thanks, man, appreciate it. Give him a fist bump and you get in your car and you do your job. That happens every single day in New York City, all right, that happens all single day in New York City, all right, that happens all the time. So the more you become kind of bonded with the community that you're working in, that they understand that you're human and you're not a machine, the better your job will be another way to build trust again then too, and build that sense of you know what.

Speaker 1:

Not all cops that the comedians portraying them as to be your menaces right like, because there's a lot you know. Of course you know there are certain people that get bad reps right, bad reputations. Cops happen to be in that group. But you know everybody has misconceptions on any group, really, right, if you think about it. You know, and that's just kind of the way society has been right. So, and I think a big part of you know, changing a lot of these misconceptions is in fact by setting examples of who you are. That is not. That's different than what. Is that common misconception?

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely, and you know what it's not. There's times it's not easy. You're not going to get through to everybody. All right, that's not going to happen, you're not. So you kind of pick and choose your battles. You know there's times you're going to show up at a scene you're going to get told to F off and get the hell out of here. I don't want to talk to you and you deal with that. You know, and that's going to. That's going to happen sometimes. But it's breaking through to the people who are open-minded about who you are. That's who you want to talk to, because maybe they can have the conversation with the people who are closed-minded and have a conversation with the people who are closed minded and have a conversation with them about it. So it's, it's a, it's a large network that that can work. Uh, as long as you work at it.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. You know, and I really appreciate your insight. I appreciate your, you know empathy and your compassion. You know, and it. I really feel like I learned a lot today out of this for myself and I hope, you know, I can only imagine my listeners will also learn a lot and have an enlightening and enlightenment out of this. I know I surely have. So, tom, what is one thing you would like to end our session with? What am I doing? I'm not in therapy. I'm not in therapy. Okay, end this discussion with what is a piece of advice, what's a piece of hope, what's a piece of inspiration you'd like to give to our listeners today?

Speaker 2:

You know what I'm going to end it and you know this kind of the way we end our show on Gold Shields, that if you see a police officer somewhere, give him a wave, pat him on the back of having five traumatic events happen to you in an hour. That cop that's sitting there might've just went through one, he might've just responded to the death of a child and he has an infinite home, something like that. And when a cop is sitting there and thinking about something he just went through, for somebody anyone to go hey, buddy, thanks very much, man, you need anything, you need a coffee, you need a water? I'll go get it for you. That means the world to a police officer. You know they're driving by. Wave at them. Hey, I know, I understand what you're doing. I got your back. Thank you for what you're doing.

Speaker 2:

You know there's we do this on holidays a lot. Everyone always puts posts out of happy whatever, merry, whatever, and there's so many cops that aren't with their families. Why? Because they're out there making sure your families are safe and that they're not with theirs. So I always want everyone to understand that cops are human. They bleed, they hurt, they cry, they, you know, get emotional. We're not robots and the more people understand that I think the better off we'll be society-wise, protecting our police officers who are protecting the public.

Speaker 1:

Everyone gets on that same page of you know, of that understanding, I think will be OK show on Instagram, definitely check him out on YouTube and he has had, honestly, the most amazing guests on there and he's All the stories that he talks about on his podcast on Tom's podcast has been nothing short of just amazing, and so thank you, tom, and we will, and we will conclude for the today. Thank you very much to all the listeners. If you haven't already, please subscribe, review and also share with your family and friends about On the Spectrum with Sonia and also share with your family and friends about On the Spectrum with Sonia. My book, dropped in a Maze, will be coming out shortly at the Creative Con in February in Chicago at the Intercontinental Hotel. The book launches February 21st. And yes, just if you would like to hear more, if you enjoyed today's episode and want to hear more, just remember subscribe to on the spectrum with sonia. We're available on all audio podcasts, including apple, spotify, amazon music and anywhere you subscribe for your podcasts. Thank you.