On the Spectrum with Sonia Krishna Chand
Welcome to On the Spectrum with Sonia Krishna Chand, the ultimate podcast dedicated to unraveling the beauty, challenges, and triumphs of living with autism and embracing neurodiversity. Hosted by Sonia Krishna Chand—renowned autism advocate, speaker, and author of the transformative new book Dropped In The Maze—this podcast is your go-to source for meaningful conversations about the spectrum of life.
Each week, Sonia brings her deep expertise and personal passion to the microphone, diving into critical topics that matter to families, educators, and allies alike. From understanding the nuances of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) to exploring the broader neurodiverse landscape, the podcast is a treasure trove of insights, strategies, and heartfelt stories.
Why Listen to On the Spectrum?
- Parenting & Family Dynamics: Raising a child on the autism spectrum comes with unique joys and challenges. Sonia shares practical parenting strategies, tips for fostering connection, and advice on navigating developmental milestones, education systems, and healthcare resources.
- Relationships & Social Connection: Autism doesn’t just shape individual lives—it profoundly impacts relationships. Episodes explore topics like building meaningful connections, navigating romantic relationships, and fostering social skills in neurodiverse individuals.
- Education & Advocacy: Learn how to effectively advocate for your child or loved one in schools, workplaces, or the community. Sonia will explore Individualized Education Programs (IEPs), inclusive learning environments, and overcoming systemic barriers.
- Mental Health & Self-Identity: The intersection of autism and mental health is vital yet often overlooked. Sonia tackles issues like anxiety, sensory processing challenges, and the journey to self-acceptance and empowerment for individuals on the spectrum.
- Celebrating Strengths: Neurodiversity is about valuing every brain's unique wiring. The podcast highlights stories of resilience, innovation, and creativity from people on the spectrum, proving that differences can be extraordinary strengths.
Meet Sonia Krishna Chand
Sonia Krishna Chand is a passionate voice in the autism community, dedicated to fostering understanding and inclusion. As the author of Dropped In The Maze, Sonia weaves powerful storytelling with expert insights to help readers navigate the complexities of neurodiverse living. Her podcast extends that mission, providing an audio space where listeners can feel seen, heard, and inspired.
Who Should Tune In?
This podcast is for anyone touched by autism—parents, caregivers, educators, clinicians, and neurodiverse individuals themselves. Whether you’re just starting your journey or are looking for deeper understanding, On the Spectrum with Sonia Krishna Chand delivers the tools, perspectives, and hope you need.
About Dropped In The Maze
Sonia’s newest book, Dropped In The Maze, is an eye-opening exploration of neurodiverse experiences. Through raw storytelling and actionable insights, it illuminates the twists and turns of life on the spectrum and serves as a guide for creating meaningful connections and inclusive environments.
Join the Conversation
Together, let’s celebrate the beauty of diversity and build a world where every voice matters. Listen to On the Spectrum with Sonia Krishna Chand on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform today.
On the Spectrum with Sonia Krishna Chand
Embracing Your Unique Path with Molly Booker
Trigger Warning: Past Suicidal Ideations Discussed
After experiencing the crushing weight of societal expectations, Molly Booker found her path to self-acceptance through embracing her individuality and passions. On this episode of "On the Spectrum with Sonia," Molly, the author of "Magic in the Mess," takes us on her inspiring journey of breaking free from the chains of conformity Her story highlights the difficulties that present when one feels that they don't fit in like everybody else, and the difficulties with learning to embrace one's own uniqueness.
Throughout the episode, Molly and I reflect on our personal battles with "masking" and the intense pressure to fit into societal molds. Both of us recount the emotional toll of feeling like outsiders during our formative years, which led to struggles with self-identity and mental health. As we share our experiences, we shed light on the potentially devastating impact of a lack of self-awareness and the importance of redefining success to align with one's true passions and desires.
Molly's narrative is a powerful testament to the liberation found in pursuing what genuinely brings joy, whether it's writing, public speaking, or creative hobbies like playing guitar and drawing. She passionately invites listeners to reject societal boxes and embrace their unique brilliance, transforming internal suffering into love and acceptance. Join us for this empowering conversation, and connect with Molly at mollybooker.com to continue exploring the beauty of individuality and self-discovery.
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of On the Spectrum with Sonia, where we talk about autism spectrum, mental health challenges and inspirational stories to help empower individuals, to help them feel connected, encouraged, loved, supported and full of hope, especially in a world that continuously tries to disconnect us. Today, our guest, molly Booker oh, my goodness. Now I want you all to think about this for a second have you ever met somebody who was a kindred spirit to you? Because in this episode we're about to get there. Okay, we're about to get there and it is just amazing because she wrote a book, magic in the Mess, which I can't wait to read, because I feel like that's the cousin book to dropped in a maze.
Speaker 1:In many ways, it's the first cousin of dropped in the maze and it you know Molly is here to discuss.
Speaker 1:You know her upbringing as well, like what got her into writing, because she wrote a book to help others as well. But you know, like a lot of people, and you know everyone's story is unique, molly also went through a tough time with self-love, self-identity, with self-compassion, with understanding that it was OK to be different. Because deep down inside her, molly probably and she will elaborate on this she already knew that she had like a fire to her, that she will elaborate on this. She already knew that she had a fire to her that she was not able to express, given how society was, given the fact that we live in a society and this still happens, unfortunately where anybody different gets othered. You know, there's still a lot, lot, and it's to a point now where people have gone so far, right, that they're not even using proper names anymore, to the point like, for example, the word autism. People are not even saying the full word anymore. People are not even saying the full word anymore, which is a travesty Because somebody on the spectrum.
Speaker 1:I want that word to be used, because that's how we get rid of stigma, the more we use a word. So, but here, to discuss all this and more, let's please welcome Molly Booker. Yes, molly, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm great. I Thank you for having me. I feel like we've been in the conversation for one minute and already our sleeves are rolled up. I don't even have sleeves on this morning, but ready to go?
Speaker 2:Yes, roll up, I'm fired up to talk about this. I'm fired up to talk about this. What you said already, you know, deeply resonates with me growing up in a way that I didn't. I didn't fit in with mainstream and I've kind of felt this way my whole life. You know the game, life the game. You know that here's this game of life and I feel like I'm kind of living in this board game. But I must not have gotten the directions, because I don't understand how this game is being played, because it doesn't seem this is not fun for me.
Speaker 2:And growing up I really, really struggled with that. And you know what's interesting is I didn't do it the way everyone else was doing it and I constantly felt like I'm not fitting in here, I don't belong, and I felt that way with number one right out of the gate how I like to dress. And so I had two older brothers growing up, uh, two brothers, one older, one younger, and I like their clothes. They had pockets and they allowed you to like run around, um, but the clothes that you know that I was given as a girl like was super tight and no pockets, so made it difficult to do what I wanted to do. So already very early on, I was getting feedback of, like you're not, you're not dressing the right way, Um, and so, very quickly, I took that narrative into. You know, at first it was like, well, what's wrong with the way I want to do it? But very quickly it was like, well, I must be doing it wrong. And so that story led to you know, I don't dress correctly, I didn't want to kiss boys in the fifth and sixth grade. And then it was like, well, what's wrong with you? You must be prude. And then, very quickly, it was like, yes, I made this something wrong about myself.
Speaker 2:I, I really loved to read, I love to study. And then again that was like, well, what's wrong with you? You're a nerd, you're a loser, you're a dork, all these things. So, you know, I took this feedback of I'm not doing it the way everybody else is doing it as, um, like I'm a gender failure, I'm not attractive, I can't seem to do it the way everybody else wants to do it, I'm a nerd, I'm a loser. And I took all of that to mean there must be something deeply, profoundly wrong with me. And so what the truth was is yes, I am not aligning the way that the majority are. Here's society's standard and society's directions go this way.
Speaker 2:Well, that didn't work for me. So I assumed that it must be something wrong with me. And that assumption led to self-hatred. It led to depression. It led to 23 years in a suicidal depression. But I, you know, it's like, well, there's something wrong here, that something must be me. It has taken me a lifetime, it has taken me 49 years to realize there was never anything wrong with me. That path didn't fit, you know, like I don't. I don't fit in with that it. There's nothing wrong with my attractability. You know, there's nothing wrong with the way that I wear clothes. It just turns out I'm not straight, I'm gay. It took me 47 years to realize that, because I was so enmeshed of doing it the way that I was told to do it.
Speaker 1:And you know. So it's just seemed to me like as if you know, like, so you kind of knew that you were not like the people you were around, but it was like you didn't understand at the time, you weren't able to connect the dots, like, okay, I'm not like you guys, but I'm getting treated in this way, so what? So, like, what was school like for you, like, did you have any friends growing up? Did you have like any kind of support system? And I know you said you felt very. You know, you had a moment, a period in your life where you felt suicidal. So like, what was, what was that like for you All? School, family, all that?
Speaker 2:You know I, knowing what I know now and looking back, I can see that you know, society has these boxes and these labels in the way that we can understand people and the way that we relate. And when I was growing up, there were certain boxes and I did my very best to try to fit inside those boxes because I wanted to belong, I wanted to be a good kid, I wanted to fit in, and so I tried to force myself to do that, the best that I knew how to do, which was to dress the way that other girls were being were dressed. It was to fit into this heteronormative path, it was to not make waves, it was to do as I was told, to not question authority. And so I tried to cram myself into these boxes. And before I really knew what that boxes and before I really knew what that you know, before that really started, life was great. Elementary school was awesome for me because kids just were kids, you know. I could wear whatever I wanted to wear. We weren't. You know, there wasn't who's dating who and who loves who and who has a crush on who. Kind of before all of that, I could just be my authentic self and it was celebrated. I was very athletic, I was great at soccer, I had great friends, it was cool to know how to read and to love books. You know, when all that stuff was cool, I was crushing it. I had sleepovers, I had friends, I felt like I belonged was crushing it, I had sleepovers, I had friends, I felt like I belonged.
Speaker 2:And as soon as those boxes started to get more rigid in adolescence, I started to really struggle because those box just didn't fit for me. Um and so, like fifth, sixth grade, when there started to be boy girl parties and going out with boys and kissing boys, I started to not fit in as well. And um, and it was just baffling because I didn't have language or I didn't really understand of like, hey, my life was going great and now it's not going great anymore. The language I have now is you know, I'm not straight, but I tried to fit myself into this straight box my whole life. And I think the message that I'm super passionate about is, you know, as I think what happens is is when we find ourselves thinking differently, showing up differently, expressing ourselves differently. So often we get the message is there something wrong with you? And no, there is nothing wrong with that individual. It's that we don't fit into these boxes that, you know, people want us to fit into, of whether it's sexuality, whether it's neurotypical or neurodivergent or mental illness, whatever these boxes are.
Speaker 2:I think when we try to jam people into those kind of labels, what we end up doing is really, you know, minimizing and pathologizing and making something wrong with the individual, rather than there's something wrong with these boxes that just aren't fitting the spectrum that we tend to have. And so it took me a really long time to realize that, and I thought that there was something wrong with me, and so that was like well, if I'm the problem like I can't, I can't go get a new version of me. So in my thinking, it was like well, if I'm the problem like I can't, I can't go get a new version of me. So in my thinking, it was like well, I just need to eliminate myself. Then, if I'm the thing that doesn't work or fit in here, um, and so that was. You know, I felt very suicidal from 16 to 35, without knowing anything or how to talk about any of that. Now what I'm realizing is is like oh, I, you know, there are other ways of doing this. There was never anything wrong with me.
Speaker 2:But what that looked like in my experience of trying to fit myself into, you know, the way that I was being told to do it, was when I hit junior high. Suddenly I had no friends, I had no one to sit with at lunch. I, you know, I, my self-talk was horrendous, like what's wrong with you, how come I can't get a boyfriend, you know, and it was really confusing of like I don't want a boyfriend and then also I can't get one. So there must be, it must be because I'm ugly and all of that of. There must be something wrong with me. You know, it must be. I'm not lovable, I'm not smart, I'm not attractive.
Speaker 2:And I just lived in that story of myself for several decades which felt like I don't have any friends, I'm not fitting in, I don't belong. Where am I contributing? And it wasn't until, you know, I started really getting curious about. Wait a second, who am I? When I'm not trying to be all these things to all people, when I'm not trying to fit in, when I'm not trying to be all these things to all people, when I'm not trying to fit in, when I'm not trying to please other people. What does that even look like? That's when I started to get freedom from the depression, from the suicidal ideation.
Speaker 1:So when you were trying to fit in, it was that you know. So you were just trying to play it off like everyone else, right, you were just trying to be like okay, you know what I'm going to date. I'm going to, you know, have I'm going to do what I see all my peers doing going out. I'm going to kind of mimic what they're doing in every. It's kind of like how, when they talk about with neurodivergence, right, that term, masking right, yeah, kind of like that, where it's like you are trying to acclimate to your society, you are trying to, like you, learn some rules of social convention.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That you try to emulate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say, you know, masking very much. It's like I wanted to fit myself into society standards, like I wanted to be the good kid. I wanted to do it right. I wanted to, um, be a success in the way that I knew that to be, which, at that time, you know, growing up it was like have a really good job, be married to a man, have kids, have a home, and so the more that I tried to do that definition of success, um, I contorted myself so much that I, like I, couldn't even see myself. I I had no idea who I was. I was so, um, I had no idea who I was. I was so, um, like I, I was following that so blindly that I I didn't even have any idea of who I was until in my forties, which is astounding.
Speaker 2:To wake up and realize, like, what? How did I not know I was gay, is the question that has been plaguing me. How did I not know this? And I didn't know it because I was more interested in fitting in, I was more interested in doing it right than I was in really understanding what resonates with me. I wasn't asking, well, what would work for me. I was asking how can I force myself in doing it the way that works for you?
Speaker 1:And when you were masking and just trying to contort yourself, what? What were people's reactions to you? Do you feel like there was any breakthrough with people or do because I know you discussed that you had no one to sit with in junior high when it came to lunchtime and you know the cafeteria can be a very lonely place, especially if you are outcasted right or rejected or othered right way. Shape or form. The cafeteria can be basically earth's definition of living hell. Um, what so like did you? I mean, was there anybody who whom you know you were able to try to connect with at that time, or was it kind of like you just kind of stayed in your own on your?
Speaker 2:own kind of earth's definition of living hell.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like the cafeteria in junior high was like as bad as I could ever imagine it. It was a living hell. Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1:It is definition of living hell. Um, it really was like I. Living hell, oh my God. You know it was horrible. I used to. You know the days that I was able, because I was under restriction at school, sixth and seventh grade, acting out and all and well. That's a really long story, but, like what, what led up to that? But you know the days that I was able to start eating in the cafeteria again. It was just. I used to miss when I had to eat in the resource room because it was just. It was like a zoo. Okay, with all. For all practical purposes. It was like a zoo with wild animals getting on each other, okay. And if you were the prey, oh you best believe. It's like being a prey in a puddle full of alligators or crocodiles. You know they were coming for you and those things can swim. They can swim fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've heard this in my journey. Outer experience is a reflection of inner reality, and so my inner reality in junior high was there is something so profoundly wrong with me I can't. I can't wear clothes the way that I feel like I'm supposed to. What is wrong with me? You know, I don't want to go to boy girl parties. I don't want to kiss boys. What is wrong with me? I'm not happy Like I am in so much pain when I wake up in the morning. What is wrong with me? I?
Speaker 2:can't sleep at night. I feel this pain that I don't fit in. What is wrong with me? I don't want to do what my family wants to do. I don't like going skiing. They love it so much. What is wrong with me? I just want to go to the library and hide out. I would rather go at lunch and sit and talk to the librarians than eat in this zoo.
Speaker 2:Like what is wrong with me? That was my inner reality of what is so atrociously wrong with me. So that is what was going on in my mind. Like I must be stupid. I must not even know the basic things like how to be happy. I don't know how to wear clothes, I don't know how to fit in. Like I am missing on every facet of life here. That's what I was walking around with. That was my inner reality. And so that's what became my outer reality. Like nobody likes me. Like I convinced myself that nobody likes me. I don't have friends, I can't fit in, I can't find my people.
Speaker 2:And growing up in the 80s you know, I was in school in the 80s and the 90s you didn't talk about your feelings, you didn't talk about emotions, it was just suck it up, be tough, fit in, get along, you know, and not doing this right, remove yourself, pull yourself together, then come back. So this nightmare that I was going through, it's like Molly, suck it up Like there's no crying here. So I was doing my very best every single day to suck it up that living hell called the cafeteria, like I would go walk through. I had nowhere to sit, I mean, and it's like I not that I could even eat food. My body, my nervous system was in fight or flight all the time, so I basically would go through, I do a few laps. I have nowhere to sit, I'm not even hungry. I'd throw my lunch away and then I'd walk out feeling like I don't fit in in the world.
Speaker 2:And that's the worst pain that I've ever experienced. That is at the heart of suicidal ideation I don't belong. And then I would, you know, walk the halls, I'd go to the library and so, like that is the living hell. And I think there's so many people. I think what's so important about your podcast? I'm not alone.
Speaker 2:There are are so many, many, many, many people that feel that way, like I don't. There must be something wrong with me. You know, like I don't, my brain doesn't work the way other people's brain works, or I don't look the way that other people look, or I don't think that way. I mean, there are so many of us feeling that way and the profound misunderstanding is is that there's something wrong with you? There's not, but when you buy into that and when you try to fit in to something that doesn't resonate with you, that's not authentic. When we try to do it mainstream or we try to mask, when we try to mask to fit in with others, to make other people comfortable, it is like a soul level injury and that leads to, you know, depression symptoms, it leads to physical pain and it leads to living in that kind of hell.
Speaker 1:And it leads to living in that kind of hell. Yes, and you know it's so easy, you know, to get caught up in the idea that, okay, well, since you know nobody likes me, you know I'm getting rejected, I'm feeling othered, I'm feeling alienated. You know what, I'm going to hate myself too, you know, and it's really easy to just really internalize all those messages that you're receiving from the outside world and be like, okay, well, okay, maybe I am a piece of, or you know they hate me, maybe. Okay, well, there is something wrong with me, or maybe I'm, you know, you know not belonging, or you know, I can't, you know, maybe I'm just an alien or something. You know, like those messages, it's really really easy to soak them in. So when did you first then realize that? You like, when did you get your first ideation? And you know, I know you said at 16, it started, but when, like when did it start? Coming on to that point where it's like, okay, no, elementary school was through sixth grade junior high was seventh, eighth and ninth.
Speaker 2:So, that summer between sixth and seventh, which was the transition between elementary school and junior high. Over that summer, you know, my thinking got very like obsessive and it just like obsessive and it just like I was really perseverating on who am I, where do I fit, and then, you know, first questioning it but then very quickly going into a spiral of like I'm ugly, I'm not smart, and you know, that is what I convince myself of and that is the reality that I live from. And what's interesting to me is, again, outer experience is a reflection of inner reality and I've just held that backwards my whole life. I thought what I'm experiencing outside is reflective of who I am. So I was looking outside and seeing wait a second, I don't have any friends, I don't seem to fit in. That must be evidence that I'm not worthy or I'm not good. And the piece that was just backwards is like I convinced myself of that and then I projected that outwards. So it occurred to me and I experienced it as I don't have friends, I don't belong, I'm not fitting in with anybody, and it wasn't until, you know, that narrative started to change about how I felt about myself.
Speaker 2:As soon as that began to change, of working on these limiting and beliefs about myself and profound misunderstandings about myself. As soon as my own thinking changed, my experience in the world changed All of a sudden it's like, oh my gosh, I have great friends. Weird how that. It really starts with how we are viewing ourself, how we're talking about ourselves, how our own thoughts about self, our self-love. I know it feels like it should be the other way, but in my experience that is right. There is the key to belonging Isn't how other people are, you know, relating to me, but how I relate to self is the key point to having that experience of belonging. So for me you know I was already questioning that in seventh you know, seventh grade, eighth grade, ninth grade I really thought high school was going to be different. I just was like I haven't heard anybody say that middle school is awesome. Everyone I've heard says this sucks. You know you're going through puberty. It's a rapid time of change. You know your body is doing all kinds of wacky things. You know acne and all of it, right. So high school maybe you know I'll have figured it out.
Speaker 2:And my older brother was killed in a car accident six months into starting high school and I felt really responsible. And so at that point I began to feel very suicidal of like you know, there's just I make everything worse, you know, was the story that I started telling myself. So that's where the suicidal ideation began. You know, it wasn't just like I don't fit in, but I really felt like I just am making everything worse, like I'm the thorn in people's side, I'm a burden, you know.
Speaker 2:And that's the other piece of suicidal ideation is like I don't belong, you know, and it's like this feeling like I don't belong and this misunderstanding that I'm a burden or I contribute negatively, and so it really just spiraled from there and I can only imagine how heavy those feelings must have been to feel that you are responsible. You know, even though, looking back, you know, I'm pretty sure maybe you look at this differently now, but you know at that time what made you feel like that was a burden you had to bear you know this is it's interesting when you zoom way out is my older brother, Ben, was wild child, like authentic self-expression.
Speaker 2:He did not fit in and he didn't try to. That was the difference. He didn't try to, he was his own person. He questioned every single rule. He pushed back on everything and I was the opposite. It's like nope, I'm going to agree with everybody, I'm going to be the good kid. He was the bad kid, I was the good kid. And so my brother really pushed my buttons all the time. I'm like I can't stand that he is living out loud when I feel like I need to hide my authentic self. It really pushed my buttons and so I went along with it. You know, I just my whole life like well, I'm going to be the good kid, I'll do it the way you want me to. I'll shrink myself to make you comfortable. And he didn't do that. He, he expanded.
Speaker 2:You know he was a big personality and he struggled a lot too. He was diabetic and and really struggled to have his blood sugars under control and then he got very into drugs and alcohol. So you know, there was a big chaos, you know, and a big energy about him and I never said anything. But it was in January of I was in 10th grade, he was in 12th grade and his blood sugars were out of control. And for the first time I spoke up, you know, and he had, he had dented his truck and he, you know, told me that I needed to go help him get it fixed. And like something just snapped in me and I'd had enough. And I I told him no, it was the first time I've ever said no. I was like no, you know, I'm not doing this. And I really voiced years and years and years of frustration. I voiced that I thought, you know, our family revolves around you. You know, I feel invisible in this family. We're always doing things for you. I feel like you're selfish. All of that Right. And I just spewed it all out and I, and then, you know, I just slammed the door in his face and so that whole fight started with him asking me to get his, take his truck, to put it in the shop, to get it fixed. He had dented the front end of it.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I woke up pissed the next morning. I wouldn't talk to him and he died that day in that truck, and so in my mind, you know like I left him with words of hatred. You know like I hate you is the last words I said to him. And I also said, no, I won't take you to get your truck fixed. And so that day he was driving in that truck and so in my 16 year old brain, you know, I felt responsible. Like if I had just said yes, if I would have just taken you to get your truck fixed, you wouldn't have been driving, your truck would have been in the shop.
Speaker 2:Um, so you know, I felt very responsible for that and it also collapsed something in my 16 year old brain. It's not okay to have a boundary, it's not okay to say no, it's not okay to voice your upset, your discontent, it's not okay to speak up. And so I didn't. That was the end of that. I didn't ever say no to anybody, I didn't object, which really, you know, led to masking and living in a way that felt like it would make everybody else comfortable.
Speaker 1:And it seems like it was just a big burden to hold for all these years and not having boundaries and not saying no to people and not being able to have some like assertion self, you know, like, have some assertiveness, you know. I can only imagine how that also weighed on you too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it did, and it made it so like I looked successful. I have three master's degrees, I have, you know, great jobs. I got married Like I did all the steps and all the things and on the outside it looked like I was really successful, but on the inside I didn't. I didn't even begin to know myself. I was so disconnected with my authentic self. I was what society wanted me to be and I thought that was successful.
Speaker 2:The disconnect was well, why am I not happy? Because I've been sold this idea my whole life if you do these things, you'll be happy. Well, I did all those things and I was far from it. I was suicidal, I was living in a hell. That is what I set out to understand. Why am I so unhappy? Well, it turned out I was so unhappy because I, I didn't, I wasn't showing up, I wasn't in my own life, I, there was nothing about me showing up. And it took a lot of unlearning, undoing of you know, of masking, of pretending, of trying to fit in. It took undoing all of that to start to unearth me my authentic expression, what I like to wear, what I actually think, who I actually want to be friends with, who I love being around. Um, it wasn't until then that I started to to enjoy anything, to, um, enjoy my life. It's because you know, I think if something's feels like it's missing in your own life, it's probably you.
Speaker 1:Right, Right and what? What would you say was that defining moment for you to kind of really do the work inward and become more introspective? What would you say would be that defining moment where you were like, okay, let's work on the inside out?
Speaker 2:hit suicidal crisis at 35. I just couldn't do it anymore. So I had a plan. I knew how I was going to kill myself and that day I felt super peaceful and that was curious to me, like I haven't yet killed myself. So why do I feel peaceful here? Um, you know, it was really curious. And then, you know, in that space of peace, there was a new thought that came in, one that I had never had before, and it was well, what if I live my life for me? You know, when I was growing up, I got told all the time, roll with the flow. And it was kind of like well, what if I rolled with my flow? What is my flow even look like? It was kind of like well, what?
Speaker 1:if I rolled with my flow, what?
Speaker 2:does my flow even look like it was new. It had never, ever occurred to me before. And so I set out like, huh, well, I feel like I can kill myself anytime. Let me be sure, this is what I really want to do. And so I started to ask myself, well, what would living my life look like? What would living my life in a way that I wanted to even look like? And it started being things that seemed totally out of character for me. I felt compelled to journal and to write and to speak, and these were the last things that I thought I would be capable of or would want to do.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I, I, um, following that path, ran into a life coach and, um, you know, I hired him to create a motivational speech and he kept saying you know, molly, tell me the the good and the bad and the ugly of Molly. And um, it was very quick that he kept saying like Molly, I feel like there's something you're not saying, like, what are you so afraid of? And you know, in that moment it was kind of like I think he knows that, I know that, he knows that, I know kind of thing. And um, kind of thing. And um, it just came out. You know 20, 23 years of holding this thought internal that I had never voiced, that I felt so much shame around is that? And it? I just out. It came and I said I feel like killing myself all the time. I'd never spoken those words before and that's what I was afraid of. I was afraid if anybody knew that they would hate me as much as I hated me. Said you know what I love you now? And in that moment my it all switched for me. Like wait a second. I said I said the worst thing about myself and you find that lovable? Huh, maybe I've had this wrong. Maybe the things that I thought about myself that were shameful, dirty, disgusting, unlovable are actually the things that are the best about me. I was curious. I didn't know if that was true, but here was one human being that I didn't know, that I didn't have a connection with until I shared my ugliest part, what I thought was my ugliest part. And sharing my ugliest part he's like you know what I love you now, and if this could make me lovable to one, that would be enough. And so it was then that I was like wait, I think maybe I've had this backwards.
Speaker 2:And then that started the journey of like what else do I find disgusting about myself? I want to like, I'm going to get curious. And it turned out I found everything disgusting about myself. I thought the way that I think you know, I thought the way that I love books was disgusting. I thought my face was disgusting. I thought I was really ugly. I thought that was a truth. And when I started really looking at it, I spent a year looking in the mirror every single day to just to understand what was disgusting. And the more that I really asked myself, I was like wait, I don't. It went from I find myself disgusting to Well, I'm not disgusting, but I'm certainly not attractive to well, wait a second, I think I really like my ears too. I like my mouth too. You know, after a year of like well, man, I've had it really wrong about myself, I actually find myself really attractive, like I'm really good looking.
Speaker 1:And what was it like to have this transformative moment in you where you were able to morph the self-talk narrative that was at first negative of you. Know what everything about me is disgusting. You know my face, the way I love books, the way that, just the way I think right to embracing it and truly embracing then who you were. What was it like to have that transformation and that moment of like, that transformative moment?
Speaker 2:somebody see something authentic about me and want to connect with me because, um, I had been masking, you know, I had been pretending I had been trying to be what other people wanted me to be, and anybody anytime I got any positive reinforcement, it was for this thing, and so it made me feel even worse about myself, like, oh, I would you know. It's like I would compromise my authentic self to be this person and then I would get compliments for this person which made me, which reinforced, like this is the person they love. They don't love me. So this is the dark secret that I'm carrying love me. So this is the dark secret that I'm carrying is is like I, I am not really that, and I think for the first time in my life, I had somebody look at me not this and say I love you, and it it was. It just took one voice, one moment, one time is all it took for somebody to look at me and say I love you to have enough hope to, to believe in myself. I mean, it just took that, that small thing, um, that one small thing, and my life has been forever different from that one moment.
Speaker 2:Up until that moment, I was suffering, and how can I get out of my life. It was like surviving and suffering and really wanting just my life to be over. From that moment on, it wasn't a path of suffering anymore, it was a path of healing. You know, from that moment on it wasn't about how can I kill myself, it was about how can I know myself, how can I see more of this? He saw something in me and there was like a hope and a faith that that was in me.
Speaker 2:It was that light that that one person saw in me, and so it's been me getting to know myself. It's been expanding that light out and that's why like that's what this book is about Magic is in the mess. Like he saw all of that and just saw this little bit of light that was me in there in this hidden rubble, and that is the gift that I wanna give out in the world. I want everybody to see that you have that in you and the thing that makes you you which is probably, you've been told most of your life is not good is actually so brilliant, and if we can just allow enough space for people to let their own brilliance, their own authenticity, shine, it turns everything around. Then we're not suffering. It turns everything around. You know then we're not suffering we're loving.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think that is such a beautiful message to share and put out in the world that you know what it's okay to be you. You know I live by this motto be unique, be you, yeah. And I am a firm believer. And you know, what you've shared is very relatable in many ways, because I too grew up very rejected and ostracized, shunned. It's okay if you're not America's version of that beauty or what people's society puts pedestals on. It's okay if you're not on that pedestal, because you still shine bright without having to be on that pedestal. Right, you still shine regardless. There was a self-esteem book that I worked on with some clients and in one of the chapters it talked about a European crystal right and the core of the crystal being you, with the other stuff being just facets. And it didn't take away from who you were. It was just the other facets just shine light differently. But it didn't take away from who you were.
Speaker 2:I, you know, I thought for most of my life like I want to get on this pedestal, like I want to get there so that I'll be loved. And what I've come to realize is is like somebody made up that pedestal. That's not truth. Somebody decided that that's what the pedestal looks like, and so one it's like not just like cheerleading myself to say it's okay, you're not on that pedestal, you have a different pedestal. I think the more important work is to say that somebody made that up. That's not the truth of things. That's that the truth of things. That is samba. To me, that's interesting. I don't want to like worship this one way of being. I want to see all the different stories. That's like now we're talking. That's a fun way to be in the world right.
Speaker 1:Right, you froze up a little, sorry, some, for some reason it froze on me. You froze up a little, sorry, for some reason it froze on me. So we have a little bit of technical difficulties. Listeners, I'm so sorry, but yes, better now. Yes, and I think you know it's true, it is somebody making it up. You know what it was. I think it was. Also goes into that idea of domination and control right. Domination and control right and you know, fitting standards right and having that pedestal and having a hierarchy right. If we look at like evolution of societies and how they evolved, right, you always had, like the rulers, you always had the followers, you always had, you know, different imbalances of power.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I grew up very much like here's the pedestal. And the pedestal is white, heterosexual, male, you know, christian, you know, whatever we're defining that Cisgender, neurotypical that is the pedestal. Well, it's really difficult when that's not who you are. It makes you believe like, well, I'm less than because I'm not heterosexual or I'm not male or I'm not white or I'm not upper class. You know, I think the misunderstanding is is well, I'm less than because I'm not upper class. You know, I think the misunderstanding is is well, I'm less than because I'm not that ideal.
Speaker 2:And you know, and I tortured myself, you know, I tortured myself to try to be that which is I tried to be straight. Well, that just made me angry, mean and irritable. That was not fun to be around. That didn't help anybody out at all. Me trying to be that didn't help anything but me showing up as myself saying hey, I'm not. That, you know, I think, really has opened my eyes to um, oh my gosh. You know that that isn't the only way to do it. In fact, that's not even any space that I now enjoy being around at all. But I think that we can begin to see, um, that you know, that's the way that I was told to do it as a kid doesn't mean that's the only way to do it, or the right way to do it, or anything aligned with me. To me, the real freedom and the real healing began to see. There was nothing ever wrong with me, ever. The only thing that was wrong was me believing that that's who I needed to be.
Speaker 1:And there's so much power when you realize that you know what, even if you are different from the norm, owning it, being able to realize you can still own it. You don't need other people's permission to own who you are right, you have that power to define who you are. Other people don't have that power over you, right? And that's where I feel like real magic. This is where the real magic happens is when you realize that it's always in your hands and it has always been in your hands, right? But I think it's so easy. Like, whether you're, you know, neurodivergent, autistic, maybe you face different kinds of challenges. That sets you apart from other people.
Speaker 1:Whether you know somebody is of like a different sexual orientation, whether they are, you know, like a person like a different sexual orientation, whether they are, you know, like a person of color, for example, right, it's so easy, especially if you're in a predominantly like what. Going to your point, if you were raised in an environment where the pedestal is you had to live up to what was set for you in a society where people are not like yourself, right, then it's so easy to be like okay, you know what's wrong with me or why. Right, it's so easy to get into that mindset of okay, I know I'm different, I don't fit in, I don't belong here. And it's so easy to turn all that hurt inwards, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know, maybe the next step is at least it was for me of like, okay, I'm different, I am different and I am going to learn to love myself anyway, like I'm different but I will love myself anyway. That was the first step, and I think what I've come to realize now is is that the differences aren't something that I need to learn to love. You know, or how can I be in the world with this difference? You know this thing about me, but that is actually the good part, this is the good news, this is the magic. The things that make us different are the magic. Like, that is nothing to hide or manipulate or mask or change. It's those.
Speaker 2:That unique thing is the gold you know, and it took me a long time to realize that is what makes me so great. You know that that different way that I hold myself, or the different way that I think, or the different way that I express myself is the beautiful thing about me not just the thing that gets in the way Like it is.
Speaker 1:Well, here's the thing, the things that make you you is, what are those things that make that are special, right? That make that are special, to make somebody who they are? And I believe everyone is special in their own way, right? I don't believe that anybody's above anybody. I don't believe that anyone's below anybody. I believe that we are all special in their own way, right? I don't believe that anybody's above anybody. I don't believe that anyone's below anybody. I believe that we are all special in our own unique ways. And you know, and to share that with people, like you're doing in your book, which you know, leads me to ask like what is you know? So when did you realize that? Like you wanted to come out with your story? What got you into writing Magic in the mess? Like, how did you pick up that idea? Like, okay, let me share this now with the world.
Speaker 2:It's really was everything we've been talking about. It's wait a second. This definition of success is not working for me.
Speaker 2:I've climbed that ladder, I have done all the things and stuff. I've climbed that ladder, I have done all the things and stuff. It sucks up there. I don't want to do that anymore. So it's like, well, that sucks. Let me person and I'm shy and I'm an introvert and I don't go out much, and when I you know that was part of that story and when I just listened to myself, I shock myself constantly, like I surprise myself all the time. Well, actually, I love writing. I tend to express myself a lot better in the written word. I tend to express myself a lot better in the written word.
Speaker 2:I love speaking. I love being in front of a room. Who knew I thought I was shy my whole life. I actually really love public speaking. I love motivational speaking. I love talking about these things. I love having hard conversations. So it was just following. What lights me up. What do I want to do? Well, I love writing, I love speaking. You know I love sharing my story and I'm so passionate to help other people. You know I don't want people to be stuck in that prison. That feels like you got to fit yourself in this box. I want to, you know, I want to help say hey, there are no boxes, you be you. Here's the things that get in the way of all of us being authentically ourselves. And if you're, if you just want happiness at the end of the day, if you want belonging, if you want love, if you want contentment, I did not find it on that path of that success ladder. I found it in knowing myself.
Speaker 2:And I just want to say to other people hey, this has made my life really fucking awesome. I love who I am. I love waking up, I love my life, I love the people that are in my life. I love waking up, I love my life, I love the people that are in my life. If you want that, if it worked for me, it can work for you. And the path that I found it is change your definition of success from money, you know, power, all these things, to knowing yourself. Just get to know yourself.
Speaker 2:It worked, it worked, it is working, it has worked so great for me, and the more that I see people doing that, it's like here's all the things that I've been looking for my whole life. I have a partner that I adore. I have a family, I have passions. You know all these things that just eluded me. I couldn't find anything I was passionate about. I'm like I don't love anything. I don't know what I like to do. Oh, my gosh, I love so many things. I love playing guitar, I love Legos, I love drawing, I love writing music, I love playing outside, I love a cold plunge, I love a sauna, like it goes on and on and on. I'm, I'm. You know it's like I love hanging out with myself, so that would be my my. The thing that I would love to share out of this is get to know yourself. You're fucking awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, that is such like wise words of wisdom and inspiration right here, and I definitely agree. You know, I think society puts so much emphasis on what defines success Right. Define success right and whether it's having certain titles like MD or PhD or engineer or you know something, finance right, like something.
Speaker 2:MR or MRS Right Right, right, like somehow that's successful.
Speaker 1:And it's you know. And here's's the thing success is so subjective, because what is successful for one person doesn't mean that it's going to translate for the next person, right, and what is you know? So I think that, and don't get me wrong, now, for the people who did pursue those career paths and are thriving in them, k kudos to you. Okay, it's, I mean, you know, once again, we're not here to dog anybody, right, we're here to we celebrate all. But at the same time, you know everybody, like it's kind of like going back to that European crystal example. Right, that core of a person doesn't get taken away if their external lights, the facets of a crystal, look different. Right, it doesn't. Right, it goes into. You know, everybody has their own way of shining and being special in this world. So, molly, as we're wrapping this up here, how can people find you if they wanted to get in touch?
Speaker 2:mollybookercom, and it's the easiest way, mollybookercom, you can find magic in the mess it's out, it's anywhere books are sold, but the links are certainly on my website. Um, sub stack is where I'm spending more and more of my time. The links are on the website, so it's just. You know, I love simple, I love easy, and it can just be as easy as that. Mollybookercom, and please connect. There is a space on there that we can connect. I would love to connect with you. I'd love to know who you are, I'd love to see more of your light. So, please, let's keep the conversation going. I hope this is just the start and, um, you know you matter to me. I want to hear your story and so let's connect, let's talk, let's let's have these vital conversations.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so, molly, we thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your love and light. Molly, we thank you so much for coming on here and sharing your love and light, sharing your story, sharing your journey of self-transformation, which, you know what? It takes? A lot. It takes a lot.
Speaker 1:And for people to give context to this, it's kind of like doing a hard workout. You know, when you do a workout at the gym or you take up running, right, you know if you're doing this and you know you think about the work it goes into changing your body aesthetically. Right, and everybody who has done hard workouts has gone through a transformation, right, they know it takes discipline, hard work, and it's not easy. Going through an inner transformation. It's like doing a workout inside the body, okay, and it takes a lot of discipline. It takes a lot of persistence, courage, because here's the thing that mind is like that big, big, heavy weight. Okay, that and all these thoughts, right.
Speaker 1:And to work on the mind and challenging all these thoughts, it's like learning to lift a heavy weight when your body internally is not used to lifting. Right, and with time it gets stronger. Right, because the mind in and of itself is like a muscle, right, even though we all know it's an organ in the body. But very much it is like a muscle, right? Even though we all know it's an organ in the body, but very much it's like a muscle. So, challenging these thoughts, learning to change these thoughts right, learning it is like strengthening yourself internally. And all of that you know to say, while you've done a lot of good work, you put it out on paper, you wrote it in a book to help others, which I feel like is so fascinating and I think so many people are going to benefit from your book. I myself can't wait to read it. So you know, I'm just excited to, you know, have another add on because I love reading. So, yes, I cannot wait to delve more into this and continue this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's continue it, let's keep going.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, thank you very much, audience, if you've enjoyed what you heard today and please remember, rate review, subscribe to On the Spectrum with Sonia, share it with your family, share it with sonia, um. Share it with your family, share it with your friends, share it with loved ones, um and uh, looking forward to bringing you more content, so stay tuned. Thank you for listening today.