On the Spectrum Empowerment Stories with Sonia Krishna Chand: Autism, Neurodivergence, and Mental Health

Why Gen Z's Struggle Isn't Just About Social Media

• Sonia Krishna Chand • Season 2 • Episode 43

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Trigger Warning: Suicide and SA was discussed.

What if everything we think we know about the Gen Z mental health crisis is incomplete? In this eye-opening conversation, suicide survivor, author, and mental health advocate Aly Vredenberg challenges conventional wisdom by revealing four interconnected factors driving declining mental health among young people: economics, isolation, environment, and meaning.

Aly shares her deeply personal journey, beginning with a suicide attempt at age 14 following sexual assault and severe bullying. After surviving this darkest moment, she dedicated herself to understanding mental health, only to face profound grief when her best friend died by suicide in 2020. Rather than retreating into her pain, Aly channeled it into researching the complex roots of our mental health epidemic, culminating in her book "Out of Focus."

Unlike many discussions that point to social media as the primary culprit, Aly presents compelling evidence that the crisis began in 2007 - before Instagram, TikTok, or Snapchat existed. She reveals startling statistics about Gen Z's economic disadvantages, the physiological impact of decreased access to nature, and how modern city design has systematically eliminated opportunities for human connection. The conversation dives deep into how these structural factors create conditions where meaninglessness and isolation flourish.

Most powerfully, Aly introduces prevention-based solutions that address root causes rather than symptoms. From universal healthcare with mental health parity to trauma-informed schools and national service programs, she outlines practical approaches that could transform mental wellbeing at a societal level. We also learn about her forthcoming nonprofit "The Belonging Lab" where people who struggle with mental health can come together and feel supported.

More information about Aly can be found at:

www.belonginglabsd.org

www.outoffocusbookcom

Instagram: @alyvredenburg

Speaker 1:

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of On the Spectrum with Sonia, a podcast where we discuss autism spectrum mental health and highlight inspirational stories to leave our audience feeling connected, encouraged, loved, supported, especially in a world where people are made to feel disconnected on a daily. People are made to feel disconnected on a daily. Today we have a very special guest, allie Vredenberg. She is out of California and she has a bachelor's degree in sociology and a master's in social innovation from the University of San Diego. She has written a book called Out of Focus, where she talks about Gen Z's mental health from a perspective that differs from what people customarily think about mental health, and to discuss her book and to discuss those pillars of what she's found in Gen Z mental health is Allie. Allie, thank you so much for being here today.

Speaker 2:

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

So, allie, why don't you tell us a little bit about you, your background?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to speak on me. I am, first of all, a Gen Z. I'm a member of Gen Z and I recently published my book out of focus why Gen Z's mental health crisis is more complex than you think and I actually am launching my non-profit called the Lab. We have our launch party this month and I'm super excited about it. We have a 5K in August called the Stay 5K, and I'm basically I've dedicated my life to trying to solve this mental health crisis in young people.

Speaker 2:

I personally am a suicide survivor. When I was 14, I tried to take my life and, by some miracle, my mom found me and took me to the hospital and I survived. I was given another chance and that gave me a huge, huge insight into the ways our systems are failing young people. I am really lucky in that I've overcome pretty much all of the things I was struggling with. But in 2020, my best friend died from suicide and that pretty much changed the trajectory of my life.

Speaker 2:

I spent pretty much a year in bed like, unable to move. I was just so crippled with grief. It was probably the hardest time I've ever been through, truly, and she was like so many other people where she struggled in silence and people didn't know how bad it was, until she was gone and I was just starting my master's program in social innovation when she passed and I had gone into my master's wanting to create a social enterprise to help the mental health crisis. I've been passionate about mental health since I was a little girl, I think because I had struggled for so long, but really what ended up happening was I spent years getting my master's just trying to educate myself and why there's a mental health crisis after her passing, and so that's what led me to write my book, and now, finally, I'm using my master's degree to start my social enterprise.

Speaker 1:

Well, Allie, thank you for sharing your story with us. I know that must have been a very difficult thing, you know, not only to have undergone, but then also to be able to be to share as well that vulnerability. It seemed like when you were 14, you were in a very dark place and, if you don't mind sharing with us what was going on at that time that drove you to that place very, very dark place.

Speaker 2:

I was sexually assaulted and the boy that did it decided he wanted to just absolutely bully the heck out of me. I couldn't walk down the halls of the school without being coughed at, laughed at, made fun of, being told I was a whore. I mean, it was just awful. And I went home every day and I told my parents I need to leave the school. The school's awful. They paid, you know, 20 grand a year for me to be at that school. It's supposed to be the top school in, you know, the whole country. I mean, it was a really big, great private school apparently.

Speaker 2:

But I was just tormented and finally it came to a point where I just felt like I don't belong here, I shouldn't be here anymore. I'm, I don't have value. I just felt so alone, so alone, and I didn't feel like I was heard or seen, and so I felt like I had no way out, which obviously wasn't true at all. And sitting here today, I couldn't be more grateful that I'm here. Truly, I'm so grateful to be here and so grateful that my mom found me, because I really do believe there is so much hope.

Speaker 1:

There is so much hope and it's like pretty much anyone you speak to who's a suicide survivor will say the same thing and that they're grateful they're here and that they're grateful it didn't work. So I can say that really honestly and you're sharing your story and you're sharing ways to help with the mental health crisis for the younger generation, because your voice is so valuable and you're so needed and I'm grateful that you never took your life.

Speaker 2:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Allie, so you see your best friend. I know she unfortunately in 2020 ended her life, did you?

Speaker 2:

know what was going on. At that time I did know she was struggling and I actually made a song. It's kind of funny. I love music, I'm very artistic. Creativity is one of the most actually important ways to heal when struggling with mental health issues, i't you know, and I wish you were here and so, like I in the friendship, really wanted to sort of save her because I knew she was struggling and unfortunately she lived very far from me. She lived about three hours away.

Speaker 1:

And so.

Speaker 2:

I just I couldn't save her and it really hurt, and of course it wasn't my job to save her. And looking back at it now I see that really the system she went to to get help did not help her or give her the help she truly needed, and so that also fueled a lot of my anger towards the system.

Speaker 1:

You know. It's really interesting that you talk about the systems failing her, because I've been to therapists who are nothing short of being a bully, right, and a lot of times therapists and people don't say this enough and as someone who'd been bullied by professionals who should have been helping me but made me feel like a less than and made me feel worse, right, I can just say that you know it's so easy when you're on that other side that you know it's like. You know it's like. Are they speaking like for everyone? And are they, you know, am I being targeted Because? Are they speaking what everybody in the world feels about me now? And am I really this horrible person, person?

Speaker 1:

And I look at people who were strong and stood up for themselves and made a difference and I feel like you know what this? It's so easy, especially those with PhDs. Okay, you see this a lot. I'm not judging the whole profession, but you see a lot of them abuse their power and use their doctorate. And abuse their power because they know they can get away with it, because of the status, because they can call themselves a doctor, because of the kind of prestige that people will place on their title, that people will place on their title.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm really feeling. I'm feeling what you're feeling right now. It's so so many therapists. I think there was this woman who I interviewed who was a therapist and I'm not sure if this is a completely accurate statistic, but she was saying about 20 percent of therapists account for 80 percent of the positive outcomes which in other words is sort of meaning like there's 20 percent of therapists are amazing and they help so many people and then the other 80 percent are doing harm.

Speaker 2:

And that's something that not enough of people are really talking about, I think, because in the profession, a lot of people in these spaces really want to encourage people to get care, because good care does really help people.

Speaker 2:

But the problem is is that so many of these professionals are not actually continuing their training. They're not really. A lot of them are burned out, which I'm sure you've heard of the term empathy fatigue, but I think a lot of them are jaded. They have empathy fatigue. They're speaking to people all day long and thinking, oh, these people are just, they're playing the victim. Oh, these people are just they're playing the victim. You know, they have this mindset coming in where they're not truly having empathy or awareness over how much of an impact they have on people. And unfortunately, because there is such a shortage of workers because obviously, as the numbers keep going up, we're going to need more and more workers it's unfortunate because I think a lot of people are going in and being quickly pushed through and not given the training and the tools they need to be really good therapists as well, yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And even for the training I could say thankfully, absolutely. And you know, even like for the training, I could say like thankfully, I have the financial means to pay for the continuing ed, but those are not cheap by any means. Like, I will look at like prices for even in-person conferences, online stuff, and they really do make you pinch your wallet, you know, and it is hard and I understand about, like, the empathy and the burnout, you know, because it is hard, because you try your best, you know, you do your best, you do what you can and I feel like, a lot of times too, you know, it's like a double-edged sword because, on one hand, there are people who are truly trying to help and truly trying to make a difference, but, on the other hand, they can only do so much because they can't help everybody either. Right, like nobody can help everybody, let's just put it this way. Right, if we think about the set large, like, for example, a cardiologist is not going to be able to help somebody who has an appendix rupture and has appendicitis, because that's not their specialty, right?

Speaker 1:

You think about, like you know, there's just people that you know, you, you try your best and you do your best and all you want. You know you'd put your good faith effort in and now I? I absolutely love to learn. I'm a nerd, so I enjoy going to listen to Pessy and going to these conferences, even online, to like learn more. But yes, it is. It is hard, it is. It's not an easy job. For sure.

Speaker 2:

It's not for the faint of heart either, for sure what sucks, too, is that, like teachers, therapists are kind of expected to do it for the good of the world, and they're not necessarily paid enough, and so a lot of therapists aren't having like.

Speaker 2:

To have good mental health, you need to meet your most basic needs. That's housing, safety, clean water, clean air, friendships, community, etc. And even therapists the people who are trying to have help people have good mental health. I think a lot of them probably struggle as well because they're not having their basic needs met if they're being, you know, underpaid and struggling to pay for student debt and the likes of it. So it's hard. It's like the people who are on the front lines of this crisis are also really burned out and struggling themselves. A lot of them.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and a lot of times too, it depends on, like, where people are working, because I feel like a lot of times are working, because I feel like a lot of times, um, the you know, depending on the structure of the practice, it's very much run like how friends would describe working in a law firm, right, where you have to bill a certain amount of hours, you have to work a certain amount of hours. Um, I had, you know, there was a couple of places where I've worked where it was customary, right, that you had to hit certain benchmarks each week and if you didn't, you'd know about it, right, if you didn't, you you know, there'd be a discussion about it. They and a lot of it is going to your point. Yes, you know, people need to be paid for their work, because people need also to pay their bills, keep up with the cost of living and things like that. But absolutely it's a very poignant point you bring out that people don't talk about enough.

Speaker 2:

Truly, but I think that is one small thing I write about in my book, but I will say I believe there are four main things causing the crisis, and I'd love to go into them. Sure, I believe they're economics, isolation, environment and meaning. Economics, isolation, environment and meaning. And what's unique about gen z is that we grew up during one of the worst recessions since the great depression, and so at the height of the great recession, which was around 2011 to 2012, that was when most gen Zers were still children and nearly one in four of us lived in poverty, and so that's higher than any other rates of other generations like millennials, gen X, boomers at similar ages to us at that time. And what's crazy is, if you look just a year later, in 2012, almost 30 million Gen Zers so that's nearly half of our generation were living in low income households, and so that means that millions of young people basically stepped into adulthood carrying childhood trauma, financial instability and, just honestly, a deep uncertainty about our futures deep uncertainty about our futures, and so a lot of us have struggled economically and that's been a huge hit on our generation that a lot of people don't think about or consider, and obviously I'm sure you know the data when people are growing up in poverty. They've done studies where, if you grow up in poverty, there's like, let me think about what the data was.

Speaker 2:

I think it was 1.5 to three times more likely to experience depression or anxiety. Sure, these are high numbers. So in my book I talk about how one of the biggest things we can do to help this mental health crisis is help our economy, help people who are struggling in poverty. Like that's one big way we can truly help people is getting people housing, getting people, you know, safe water, food, cleaning our air, etc. And so getting these basic needs is kind of the first step to helping the mental health crisis that I think a lot of people don't think about. And obviously in these circles we're always told go to therapy, take medication that's going to cure you, but it doesn't really think about the underlying root problems that a lot of people struggle with when they end up struggling with depression and anxiety, which are kind of the main things I talk about in my book.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, and definitely having those. It goes back into kind of like that Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right, when the height where the highest level is self-actualization. But before you can even get to self-actualization you have to have your basic needs met first, right? So that's food, shelter, clothing, safety, right, your basic levels need to be met first before you can progress up to reach your highest level of self.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and I love Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That theory is just so, so relevant, especially today, and I think that's one thing that Gen Z just it makes us so anxious and depressed because our parents are doing better than us and will do better than us. We can't afford housing. I mean, housing has gone up an insane amount, but the wages have not. The cost of college has gone up, I think about 400%. So when our parents could go off and go and get their degree, they weren't paying off $100,000 worth of student loans, whereas we have crazy amounts of student loans.

Speaker 2:

Our parents were able to buy a house for fifty thousand dollars in 1970 and now, you know, an average house, at least here in san diego, is a million dollars. So we would have to make over a hundred dollars an hour to be able to afford the house our parents were able to afford, you know, for way less, and so that alone is really really, really stressful. But then also the cost of healthcare has gone up, I think 200, 300%, and so when you combine all of these things and look at the way Gen Z is living economically, we are just not in a good place. But the thing that's complicated is, if you look at all the different factors, economics is obviously just one of many things that's happening for Gen.

Speaker 1:

Z. Yes, and you know I definitely hear this from my clients because I do have clients going off to college this fall and they did talk about the costs and you know that was some of the that was the major deciding factor of where they were going to go to school is because of what, what the costs are going to be, of what what the costs are going to be and um, so I mean it and that has been a concern. I know, like that was a concern big time for some of my clients. They come in and we spend a session discussing how to um like come up with the plan so that you know, okay, by this you have these applications in for scholarships. You see, you know, discuss what kind of other avenues you can open up for scholarships, because some of them, because of the way that their parents are making money, they didn't apply necessarily for certain financial aid because they were considered too rich for it, right? So it was kind of like, okay, so we just worked on other plans. What other avenues can you open up? You know, to get more, and so that's one thing we used to come up with is game plans on how to do that during sessions.

Speaker 1:

And you know, and definitely even in my time, though I remember, because I'm I'm a 42, going on 43-year-old girl here in August, but I still remember, like even college, I remember that even it was expensive back when I was going to school. You know, even people found even like, even with in-state tuition, it was still right, it still cost a pretty penny right, but now, but that was one concern that people had, you know, I remember, as I was leaving college eventually, because I graduated in 2004, in December. But I remember talks are going on back then were like, you know, they, people were even saying this is not even going to be sustainable in the future.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it certainly isn't. We're in the future and it's not sustainable. Yep, and it certainly isn't. We're in the future and it's not sustainable, but the other thing I talk about, um one really big thing, is the loneliness epidemic oh, absolutely we're so lonely.

Speaker 2:

We are so lonely and the data is mixed on it but and there's anywhere from 50 to 80% of Gen Z reports feeling persistently lonely, so it's like at least half my generation feels very lonely, according to different surveys that they've put out, and that's frightening. But honestly, when you look at the way we've structured our cities, the way we've addressed community and belonging, it makes sense why it's happening. Unfortunately, one thing I write about is the way we built our cities, and we built our cities in a way that is essentially a really powerful way to make us lonely. And I talk about how the moment we started building our cities for cars was the moment we started disconnecting as a society, because walkability and environment is just huge for connection and belonging and community and and so that's one huge thing is that we are very isolated and disconnected, and it's ironic because we're the most connected we've ever been online.

Speaker 2:

And so, yeah, I get angry, honestly, whenever older generations want to chop it all up and say that the mental health crisis is solely due to the social media and the internet. I get mad about it because I believe that the internet, social media, video games, all of it it's a form of escapism, and what's interesting is that the last pillar I talk about meaning they find that when people are on social media, it's directly correlated to lower perceived life purpose, especially for adolescents, and so I don't believe that social media is necessarily the root cause, but I believe it's a mirror to society and what's been happening and it's a way we've been escaping from this lack of purpose and meaning, and so a lot of us sit there and we brain rot all day, but we don't actually put ourselves out there to have hobbies and find community and meaning, and it's just much easier to stay on our phones than it is to actually go out and form those relationships and and purpose in life.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, because here's the thing, though, and I mean, and I can understand, you know, like you know, I, I see where you're coming from, but at the same time, I really do believe that the internet and social media also play a role in people's mental health. Oh yeah, and you know, there is a thing like FOMO, what we call FOMO fear of missing out. It's a thing that drives many people to therapist's office and are, you know, and people get so afraid of not being invited or thinking everybody has it better than them, because they see a picture. And I'll tell you this, the amount of times I've had to say don't compare your life to somebody's social media post. If I had a dollar for every time I had to say that I could be happily retired by now. Right, because it is so prevalent, and you know, I think that too.

Speaker 1:

You know well, definitely, you know things change with time, right, cars way, communities changed. You know, things were evolving with economics and evolving with times. You know, and I think some of this loneliness factor too, I think people get more lonely because there's more destruction, right, these phones can provide an outlet for distraction, kind of like, going to your point, what you're saying about escape, you know, and because before, when older generations are growing up, we didn't have phones or internet. We were forced to play outside, right, like that's what a lot of people talk about as well as you know, we were forced to go ride bikes or go to the park, go to camps, you know many people, their parents had a rule that they had to go outside and not come back until a certain amount of time. Right, and you know. I think you know it's just what it looks like, and even though, yes, there was probably people who were lonely back then, I think perhaps what loneliness looked like for people in different times of life changed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I will say I'm sure you know who mother Teresa is, absolutely. She gave a speech in 1950. That was about how loneliness is one of the worst problems ever and that was in 1950 and obviously the Beatles.

Speaker 2:

They wrote Eleanor Rigby, which was about loneliness. I believe loneliness has been around for a long time. I think now we feel it more severely and it's more impactful and more people are experiencing it because so many of us are isolated in our communities. We've had a decline in third spaces, a lot of the places where people used to go, like church or even in the workplace, that a lot of people have, you know, a social life within the workplace. A lot of that's happened with how we've structured work, to be more online, working from home, and then obviously, third spaces, like church, and there's been a huge uptick in coffee shops. I don't know if you notice in your city, but they're like popping up everywhere, I believe, to address the loneliness epidemic. A lot of people like to go to places like coffee shops and libraries and things like that for that connection and I think it is sort of like a pendulum sling that's slowly happening and I know the makers of Eventbrite had even reported there's been an uptick in events for young people, like in speed dating and yoga and retreats and just social activities in general for young people, and I think what's interesting is obviously all of this technology is still very new and I think there's been this learning curve of like, okay, this is working. This is not working because, if you think about it, technology is this incredible tool, this amazing tool, and the thing I talk about is that if all of social media and tiktok was just science videos and cat videos and cute dogs, we wouldn't be here.

Speaker 2:

But the thing is is that it's mirroring a culture that's existed forever. We've been sexist forever. Sex has sold forever. You know, diet culture has been huge forever. I mean, you look at pictures in the 1800s of corsets, of those ads in the newspaper. It's been here forever. Now it's just everyone has access to it. Not everyone could buy that magazine back then, or you know, etc. But what I think is happening is now we're learning. Okay, we spend time all day long looking at what you eat in the day videos and people's workout routines and all these people showing their plastic surgery. That's not good for us. I think we've learned that and I think over time, we can use social media as a really effective tool and it is being used as a tool, but I think over time it's going to get better and better. At least, I'm hoping that's the case I, obviously. We see gen alpha and the ipad generation. We think, oh my god, like we're all doomed, but maybe there is hope right, and it also starts with also being intentional.

Speaker 1:

Right, and teaching people intentionality of when they're going online, when they're going to, let's say, they want to go and look at certain social media posts. Okay, can you be intentional on what your content is going to, what content you want to focus on? Because I actually read this article somewhere. Somewhere it said that Instagram, for example, it's becoming more content-based in the sense of it's feeding you what content it thinks you're going to be interested in, based on your posts or based on what you like, right, and things like that. And so it's about you know, like anything right? We talk about setting intentions for the day. What is your intention when you get on social media? And if you can get that clarity beforehand before going on these platforms right, the less you allow it to consume, you right, because when you set that intentionality, you control it instead of allowing that, giving it the other having it the other way.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, I think, what's important to talk about when we talk about the increased risk or the increased depression, anxiety, suicide rates. It started in 2007.

Speaker 2:

And if you look, social media was not a big thing back then. I think Facebook and MySpace might have just come out, but Instagram, snapchat, all of those different really big platforms were not out yet. But if you look at the media in general, which is my argument in my book, it's the media, not social media. I believe the way in which we influence people through the media has been a huge impact on our generation. And so you look at 2007,. What happened in 2007? Well, the great recession started, but the Kardashians launched. Paris Hilton was super popular. Hannah Montana was big back then. Those were the big things influencing young people and a lot of people actually say Hannah Montana, that show was basically the launch of modern day influencers.

Speaker 2:

And so that in itself is important to talk about is what was popular when these rates started going up and what was the popular culture. And you look, and it, it was those things. And then, of course, it's when you put it all together with a economic recession, of, I think, during the economic recession, what was it? It was like 10,000 deaths went up that first year in suicide. And so you look at, there is such a relationship between economics and mental health.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, because, you know, in 2008, that was when you had that bubble bust, right, you know, you had the market crisis. You had, you know, the housing, that bubble burst in that too, in that too, and then you know you had also reforms that grew out of it, like the Dodd-Frank Act that came out subsequently later. Right, that you know. Put stipulations on banks, put stipulations on financial trading, put stipulations in place. You had, you know, definitely, you know.

Speaker 1:

Another thing is, too, you know, when you look at history, okay, when the stock market crashed in 1929, right, you know you've heard of there were suicides that happened even back then. Right, you know you've heard of, there were suicides that happened even back then. Right, because it's like, you know, because people don't know how, you know to adjust in economic uncertainty, right, there's a lot that happens where that people don't understand that if something were to happen, how are they going to be protected? Right, and that's kind of a thing that people like a lot of times, you know. You know an average person, you know, and they're going with their day to day, right, they're thinking about just the here and now. Right, a lot of people don't think about what can happen if something were to go awry right and being vigilant in that sense as well. But yes, I mean, but I do see you know how economics and mental health are very strongly correlated together, and I think that's a very poignant point that people overlook more often than not.

Speaker 2:

What's also interesting is just environment in general. I have this experiment I tell people and I say I want you to imagine two children born in the same city same year, but one grows up surrounded by parks and trees, but the other person grows up in a concrete jungle and there's just no parks, no greenery for miles. When you look at them as teenagers, which child do you think is more likely to develop a psychiatric disorder?

Speaker 2:

probably the one growing up in the jungle concrete jungle, right, yeah, so the the kid without nature access, uh, is the one that grows up more likely to develop a psychiatric disorder. And there was this study in den Denmark and they followed nearly 1 million children over a longitudinal study and they found that the kids that grew up with the least access to green space had a 55% higher risk of developing a psychiatric disorder later in life 55%, wow. And so just nature, access to nature is so important for mental health, but it's one thing we are just not building into our society right now. We're building our society for cars, for making money, and not for meaning or connection or health.

Speaker 1:

And you know it's interesting you say this because I was watching this movie at the Museum of Science and Industry here in Chicago and they were talking about cities of the future and one of the things they were talking about is having more green city, where you are getting more power from solar, having more greenery, having more parks, and they talk about they featured Singapore a lot on there, because Singapore is a city, state country and it, you know. They talk about the amount of trees they built as a way because the heat gets so much there, right, but they also have certain systems in place, right, for it to function with. You know, even despite the climate, right, and it is, and I can say as a runner here too, it is very healing to be in nature, you know, just having the green, having fresh air, being in the sunlight, being, you know, just breathing in air from the outdoors, right, and it's so important to even have all these elements. And I think you know if we can go into a, you know when we're looking ahead, using science to our advantage, right, using these innovations to get more green cities right, and it's going to take time, right, because change takes time, but I really do. And tech and use it for the better we can make things, more we can actually start absolutely to incorporate more greenery, like what it said in that movie.

Speaker 2:

What scares me is our current government is very pro deregulation and taking away environmental protections, and I'm scared for the way our cities are going to be built and I'm scared about what's happening currently in our country, because some of the things they discuss is oil drilling, drill, baby drill is one thing that we hear and a lot of that side of politics, and we also have heard that they want to do more deforestation and make it so that that is just fine is to do more deforestation, and there obviously were a lot of funding cuts to national parks, and there's just things happening right now that make me very scared.

Speaker 2:

To be honest with you and, I think, a lot of people in Gen Z.

Speaker 2:

I know that 75% of us alone have climate anxiety and it's scary to think that the people who are running our country right now are essentially wanting to take away environmental protections. It's frightening, and so there are certain things I talk about that I think we just really need to really hone in on and advocate for in our politics, and a lot of people don't want to think of mental health as political, but it is. It is deeply political because it shapes whether we're going to get health care, whether our cities are going to be protected, whether we're going to have regulations to protect our environment and you know whether we're going to have a healthy economy. So that's important to even think about is who we're voting for. Yeah, but but diving into that, I do talk about solutions and I talk about ways. I think we can fix this and I do think it's important to have a positive outlook and to think about ways we can all get involved in ways we can fix what's happening truly.

Speaker 1:

And where can people get a copy of this book out of focus?

Speaker 2:

It's on my website at out of focus bookcom. Okay, it's on Amazon.

Speaker 1:

What inspired you to write this book, what you know was the driving force for you, that you decided that you needed to put this all out.

Speaker 2:

I, I would say, definitely losing my best friend was. Was that sparking point for me? I had fully planned on just graduating with my master's and starting my business, which I'm actually launching. In a few months I'm really to be opening what I call the Stay Cafe, which is all about suicide prevention and it's basically a coffee shop where anyone can come in anytime who's struggling with their mental health, and they will know that there's a place for them and everyone there is trained in peer support and it will be a space that will have mental health programming pretty much all day long. But it's not a medicalized institution, it's just a place where anyone can go and do work, meet with friends, go to events and know that they belong.

Speaker 1:

And the nonprofit that you're starting is it mainly to promote for more mental health awareness resources, mainly to promote?

Speaker 2:

for more mental health awareness resources. Yeah, I so I I got sidetracked writing the book and publishing the book and really going all in on my activism, which now I'm just doing through through my nonprofit anyways. But during that year that I wrote the book and the year after that I have been doing all this advocacy and going on amazing podcasts like yours.

Speaker 1:

I.

Speaker 2:

I wasn't as focused on building the social enterprise which I went to get my master's for in the first place, but I've been working on building this, this business, for a really long time. In fact, I started having ideas for it in undergrad when I was getting my sociology degree and I've always known I wanted to create a space for people to know that they belong. Because I didn't feel like I belonged as a little kid. I didn't have a lot of friends and I felt very lonely and I was bullied and I never really felt like I had a space in this world, and so in a lot of ways I'm kind of building it for myself world and so, in a lot of ways, I'm kind of building it for myself.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and it's such a powerful thing that you've done in taking your pain and using it for a purpose right, for the greater good, and taking it to help others and give back. And I can definitely empathize and that's why I do what I do with my podcast. You know because, like you, I was very lonely. I didn't have any friends with my podcast. You know because, like you, I was very lonely, I didn't have any friends, bullied a lot, you know, cried all the time, and I also didn't feel like I belonged in this world either. So I felt like you know what you know. This is why, you know, I love giving back and you know, whether it's through my book or through my, through this platform, on my podcast, or through therapy and life coaching, self-esteem coaching is to give back and allow people to express themselves and feel and allow, you know, people to hear their thoughts right and know that it's a safe place.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that and it's amazing that you're doing the same and I think a lot of people who are neurodivergent that grow up neurodivergent.

Speaker 2:

We just it is really hard to feel like we fit in because our systems aren't built for us there aren't a lot of spaces for us and there aren't a lot of places where we can go and feel like, oh wow, I belong here, people see me, and so that's really what I'm trying to do and build is a place where you walk into the stay cafe and you are seen and you belong and we love you.

Speaker 1:

That's a beautiful thing. I also feel like going into that too. You know, one point, you know that I feel and I've been teaching clients this as well is how do you deal with somebody who thinks differently than you? Because you find, nowadays, with even the younger generations, how do you have a civil conversation? People don't know how to agree to disagree anymore, right, and I had to actually go and teach a client. I had to give them an example, right? So I said, okay, let's say somebody you meet thinks differently about a topic than you do. You know one way you start that conversation.

Speaker 1:

The thing is, you're not going to change anybody's mind if you shove things down someone's throat and start name calling. What you do is you first meet them where they're at and then ask them a question how long have you been feeling this way? What made you think this way? Right? And then maybe say something along the lines of you know what?

Speaker 1:

I have a little bit of a different take on it. If you allow me, I'd like to share what I think right, and do it this way and have it be a civilized conversation, right, I feel nowadays, you know, people are so quick, you know, and it doesn't matter what side of the line you stand on, but people in general we're just saying humans in general here are so quick to tear one another down and I feel like that. You know, and this is something that also, in my opinion, can lead to even more loneliness, because you know, how do you then express yourself in a room of people that don't think like you without feeling like you're going to be outed and ganged up on right? So this is another topic and another point that I see a lot of with loneliness, especially with the younger generation.

Speaker 2:

I write all about cancel culture in my book and I was on a podcast a couple of weeks ago called Love Joy Nation, where I talk all about cancel culture. Unfortunately, gen Z we are kind of famous for cancel culture and what you're saying is so important and I'm so glad you brought it up, because we are such a generation that is so judgmental. We love to cancel people and we hate when people don't think the way we do. It's across the board and I'm not sure what it is. I think we were raised very differently. We were raised a lot by tiger parents and we had a lot of over parenting. We had a lot of emotional neglect too. But I think I think there is something in the Gen Z culture that makes us very, very quick. To just cancel people and treat people like they're disposable is such a huge problem and I've experienced it in my own life, a couple years ago with a group of friends who didn't like my partner and just decided to cancel me because of who I was dating.

Speaker 2:

It's like there is this powerful, powerful cancel culture in Gen Z, where we just we alienate people instead of giving them the opportunity to learn and grow, and it's especially prevalent, unfortunately in liberal circles more than conservative circles, and I think that's why a lot of people end up drawn into conservatism, because they're not shooed away and alienated and told that they're idiots and the worst people ever because they didn't know some nuance. Right, it's right.

Speaker 2:

And it's not fair to call somebody an idiot for something they maybe didn't know yeah, you know and of course, in the liberal circles, we're told, you know, if you don't educate yourself and spend hours a day educating yourself on some really nuanced topic that a lot of people who go to school for for years are still learning about, you know, it's very, very alienating and difficult for people to be on the in what I believe to be the right side, and so I think it's huge what you're talking about and I'm curious what do you tell your clients, like? What do you say to them to help them kind of know it's okay for people to disagree with you.

Speaker 1:

Well, I discussed that we live in a pluralistic society. Well, part of living in a pluralistic society is that idea of people thinking differently, and this is what makes our society beautiful is when people have different trains of thought. Our society beautiful is when people have different trains of thought, because how would we ever learn anything different if we never allowed ourselves to see different points of view? If we're so stuck on having one way of thinking and one side only prevailing and saying my side is the right side and you better think like me, and if you don't, you're out. How then do you reach more people? Because, if anything, you're just going to turn people away. And so my thing is this Sometimes we can learn when we allow ourselves to understand where another person's coming from. This is what allows us to learn more, this was what allows us to grow, and learning to have civil debates right is what allows us to grow as humans, because we, in those civil debates, we can hear viewpoints that we didn't think of before.

Speaker 1:

And I'm not a confrontational person. I'm really not. I hate confrontation. I try to avoid it like the plague. But I'll tell you this I won't shy away from a good debate if it's something I feel passionate about. And one of the things I feel passionate about is how is about neurodivergence? Actually about how people think about women who are neurodivergent and the way that people put their positions on those who are neurodivergent and the way the media portrays neurodivergence and certain shows portrays neurodivergence and certain shows Okay, and I actually will do this podcast episode about what I think about all of this, you know. But I will say in short that there are some things I appreciate, but I also feel that there's a lot that's still neglected.

Speaker 1:

I feel that, you know, when they portray women on the spectrum, there's a lot they don't, you know, show about women. They don't. They don't show the full spectrum of women. They don't show like different backgrounds as much. Or, you know, they only show a certain kind of person more than others and they don't show what it's like for, let's say, somebody who's educated and became a doctor or became a lawyer, became a therapist, or X, y, z, right, what, whatever they became. They don't show like that about those kind of people who are on the spectrum but yet, you know, are doing what everybody's doing in daily life and people may be overlooking them or just thinking, oh, those people are just weirdos or whatever. Right, they're showing more of the people that maybe didn't have those kinds of circumstances or, you know, weren't pushed in a certain way. You know what I'm saying. Like they're just showing different kinds of things.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

You know, and I feel like there's more work in that area to be done. And you know, and I mean, do I appreciate what they're trying to do Absolutely? I do appreciate the promise, but I feel like they could do a lot more.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, Absolutely Well.

Speaker 2:

I will say that in my book, the way I think we can solve this crisis is through prevention. I think we love to band-aid and send people home with some medication and say good luck when they're in crisis, but I think what we really need to do is start looking at how we prevent the crisis to begin with, and I talk about basically it's transforming the conditions that make people unwell in the first place, and so that could look like universal health care. Unwell in the first place, and so that could look like universal healthcare. The United States is the only high income country in the world that doesn't have some sort of basic healthcare, and so if we create a universal healthcare, we need to make sure we integrate mental health with true parity and not what we have right now because it's not a parity. I believe we need to start having trauma-informed schools and stop using police officers and start putting in counselors and mentors and art therapists that help kids feel seen and creative and belong, and we know that access to care reduces stigma and it improves illness rates. I think we need to start going ham with building green spaces and walkability and making sure that cities are built to really give people that mental wellness and we know, based on the data, that nature is a proven antidepressant and access to environment is a public health necessity, especially when you look at how much of an improvement it truly makes in someone's life nets. And universal basic income is one thing I think could be a really, really important way we help people, and a lot of people. They don't love the idea of it. I know that in conservative circles or something called, I think, like the freedom dividend or something like that, there are different ways of looking at it, but the the idea is giving people the access and the resources to live better lives and have a sense of agency over our futures. And and the other thing I talk about is we need to make it free to have go to college, especially for therapists and medical professionals. I think if you're going into a profession that is service based, helping people, you should not have to pay for college.

Speaker 2:

I really believe that, and I talk about a national service program, which was actually something that Pete Buttigieg talked about when he was running for president. I think it's a fantastic idea. I think a lot of people, when they graduate high school, they have no idea what the hell they want to do. They have no idea, and it's a really cool idea to give high school graduates the opportunity to go into some sort of service program for two years. They do something amazing for the world. They plant trees, they help people in crisis, they go help USAID, whatever it is. They do something amazing. They get paid a stipend and they have their living accounted for, and then they can go to college for free after they do their service.

Speaker 2:

That would be huge. That would be a huge thing, especially for Gen Z. Huge. That would be a huge thing, especially for gen z, where a lot of us we feel like we we don't know what our purpose is in life. Giving kids the access to some sort of national service program could be really amazing. And then, of course, giving them the opportunity to go to college is just like a win-win, and so that's a big one I talked about too about too.

Speaker 1:

Hmm, you know, and it's, yeah, there's so much out there, especially now, you know, for people and it's you know, I think I can see how it can be very kind of confounding than to know what exactly you want to do, especially when there's a lot of option.

Speaker 1:

I mean, in a way, it's a great thing, right, that you have a lot of options out there, but at the same time, it can be confounding to figure it and navigate your way through that maze of, oh okay, well, what do I want to do with my life? What you know, and and here's the thing in beauty what I see nowadays that you know wasn't there when I was growing up, is the fact that people can get paid for being an influencer. Now, people can get paid for creating content, right, people who are, who have creativity and are artsy right, there are ways for them to put out things and for them to eventually get monetized Right. And so I feel like, yes, I mean it's you know, even though it is, you know, confounding, but at the same time, you have a lot of, you know, new opportunities that have come through all the all this as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I have a lot of hope and at the end of the day, I advocate for people who hear me, see me, hear my story. I advocate for one of the most important things, which is to be kind, and the definition of kindness I use is the act of making someone feel less alone, to make them feel seen. And I really believe if every person in the world followed that and actually truly were kind, we would live in so much better of a world. So it's free, it's in, it does so so much good so you know there's actually a saying in autism speaks.

Speaker 1:

You know that I, you know I have a pen and also there was a hat. I had it said be kind. And I feel like that's so. You know it's so important. I feel like you know what the world would be a lot better of a place if we knew how to be kind to one another, if we knew how to just, you know, not just be so quick to judge, but rather just try to understand. More than judge is you know what you know, learning how to. You know think learning. You know people learning how to think for themselves.

Speaker 1:

Number one, right, and not be so carried away by wayward influence. Right will be huge, and that too. And then, number two, you know, learning different ways, right, looking at. You know, learning to see things different ways. You know, like we talk about theory of mind, right, why. You know, like we may not understand it ourselves, but people have a reason for why they behave how they behave, for why they think how they think, right. And so you know and understanding that teaching those foundations at a young age Right Would be huge, I think being part of that. But I'm so excited, you know, for your book for your nonprofit. You know, ali, if people wanted to reach out to you, where can people find you?

Speaker 2:

I think my website is good because it has my Instagram and my. My whole name is really hard to spell, but my Instagram is at Ali Bradenburg and you can find me on. My website is good because it has my Instagram and my whole name is really hard to spell, but my Instagram is at Allie Bradenburg and you can find me on my website and contact me through there, and I love to hear from people so genuinely. If you're hearing me today, reach out to me. I love to talk to people, I love to hear your story and I just like to connect with people who care about wanting to make mental health better.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you know that's a big passion of mine is making mental health better and being seen, you know, in a system like you talk about, that, that designed for people with neurodivergence, one of my missions is let's make it so that neurodivergence can thrive Right, and so can thrive right. And so you know, I really support you, support your work. I'm excited to hear more about your nonprofit when things come up. You said that there was going to be a 5k. Is that there a date set for that yet?

Speaker 2:

Yes, so our launch party is July 26th and 5k. This day party is July 26th and the 5k, the stay 5k, is going to be August 23rd and where is it going to be? The stay 5k will be in San Diego at the Lagoon at 2 o'clock and you can find it on the website, which is at the belonging lab, sdorg at the belonging lababsdorg.

Speaker 1:

At the belonginglabsdorg. Okay, all right, I'm going to have all those links in the show notes.

Speaker 2:

So outoffocuscom is your website correct For your book One of them. I love making websites, but for my nonprofit it's the belonginglabsd.

Speaker 1:

Okay, but the belonginglab All right, great, and with that, ali, thank you so much for being here, thank you so much for sharing your vulnerability, thank you so much for allowing us into your story and allowing us to hear your point of view and hear your thoughts on things, because I think that you know you've provided such amazing information and a different way for people to start looking at mental health that we you know, most people are ordinarily not looking into, and I feel like this is this has been a really thought provoking conversation and I appreciate you sharing your views on here.

Speaker 2:

So happy to do so and so great to speak with you and thank you for the work you do as well.

Speaker 1:

Well, thank you and folks, that's a wrap for this episode of On the Spectrum with Sonia. Please remember to like, subscribe and share with your friends and family if you enjoy this content. Also, my book Dropped in a Maze is available for purchase on Amazon and is sold by major book distributors. Also, while we're talking about books, please check out Allie Vredenberg's book Out of Focus. And with that, wishing you all a great day, thank you for tuning in and speak with you next time.