When Suicide Touches A Family with Kirsten O'Connor

Some of the most dangerous myths about suicide sound polite on the surface: “They were selfish,” “They did it for attention,” “If you talk about it, you’ll make it worse.” We push back on all of that with a conversation that stays human, specific, and real.

We’re joined by Kirsten O’Connor, an author from New Zealand and the mother of Kahlia, who died at 24. Kirsten helps us remember the full person behind the loss: a bright, musical, loyal young woman with a psychology background, close friendships, and a huge heart for others. We also talk about the part people miss, how someone can “present well” while living with depression, anxiety, self-harm, and suicidal ideation, and how that invisibility can become a barrier to getting help.

Kirsten shares the layered realities that often sit underneath suicidality: coercive control and emotional abuse, financial abuse that traps families, the isolating impact of COVID lockdowns, and the devastating ripple effects of sexual assault trauma. We get practical about support, too: safety, medication side effects, therapy access, and why creative approaches like art therapy can help an overthinking mind find a new outlet. 

We also spend time on what to say when you’re scared of saying the wrong thing. Asking “Are you feeling suicidal?” does not plant an idea, it can open a door. If you or someone you love is struggling, help is available. If you enjoyed this conversation, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find it.

Kirsten is the author of the book "The Year After Kahlia." It can be ordered through this link :https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-year-after-kahlia-kirsten-oconnor/1148894926?ean=9780473764609

Kristen also is the founder of This is Grief. More information can be found at https://thisisgrief.nz

Transcript

Content Warning And Support Options

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Hello, everyone, and welcome to today's episode of On the Spectrum with Sonia. Today we are going to be discussing some very deep and heavy topics, namely self-harm and suicide. So I would encourage anybody, you know, please take care of yourself. If you are in a position where this may not be an episode you are able to handle or listen to, we encourage you to go take care of yourself. You know, call 988 if you need to go to your emergency room, call your therapist. But otherwise, with us today, we have a very special guest all the way from New Zealand, Kirsten O'Connor. Kirsten is an author of the book The Year After Kalia, written about her daughter. And she is coming out with a second book that deals with suicidality called Silence, which is in the making, and here to discuss grief, suicide, self-harm is Kirsten. So Kirsten, thank you so much for being on here. And I want to say my condolences about your daughter.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Thank you so much for having me, and thank you for that.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

So tell us a little bit about Kalia. What was she like?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

I love talking about Kalia. She was absolutely wonderful. She um was 24 when she died, so I had an amazing time with her. I do feel really privileged as a mother to have been able to spend that time with her. We were very similar and very close. Um, she used to call me her soul mate at times, so we had a really dynamic, reciprocal relationship. Um, and that, you know, that is, I'm so lucky to have had that. She was fun, she was intelligent. I mean, you could list all the amazing things that she was. I used to always say that she was the better version of me. She was highly empathetic, I mean, she was loyal, she would always be with you in a crisis and stand by you. Yeah, it's really hard to sum someone up in a few words. Um, she was she had a psychology degree and worked in human resource um right up until till her death. Um, so she her main purpose, I think, for being was to help other people.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

So it seemed like she was uh very full of life, had a big heart, wanted to be helping others and had a passion. And like, was she involved in a lot of things growing up that you remember? Was she into like sports?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Was she into She was very musical. Um, and actually after she died, we had her cremated with her guitar. So my dad is a musician and he taught her to play guitar, so she had an incredible voice. She used to write songs and sing, um, and that was her big passion. She loved netball and different sports like that growing up. She loved being in school productions. She was a really, really talented young lady. She loved cooking and baking, used to make the most incredible cakes, and yeah, yeah, she's a very talented young girl.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

What was her favorite cake she made?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

She used to make that this Hadias cake. When I say Hadias, it was really sweet, and I don't have a sweet tooth. So a chocolate ghetto cake, and she used to make the icing with cream and all kinds of things. So it used to you could only have a small slither of it because it would um be so rich.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

As you describe it. What was one of your favorite memories you had with her?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

One of my favorite memories is we loved musicals together. I am not musically inclined, but she is. So um she used to watch musical kids together and sing the songs. So one of the favorite ones that we used to watch was Mamma Mia. And she used to sing Yeah, The Winner Takes It All, and that was her signature song, and she used to belt it out so loudly, it was great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

And did she have like a lot of friends growing up? Did she have like a close community of people?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

She had a small group of friends, and they remained friends and still do remain friends. So there was a group of five girls that moved through life together.

Depression Behind A Bright Smile

SPEAKER_01 5:23

That's you know, and when you find friends like that, that you move through life through every stage, that's a blessing for sure. So tell us what then ended up happening because you know, you're describing a very happy girl, very jubilant, very um talented, you know, close group of friends, you know, studied human psychology.

Self Harm Early Signs And Context

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah. And and that is important for me to get across because people that suffer from mental health can have a wonderful life and be amazing to be around. It's not always what it's depicted as. And that can actually be hard for people. It's certainly hard for her when she struggled for mental health and people, she always presented well. She always smiled and joked and laughed, and that was how she was. But she was also depressed and also had anxiety and also had underlying mental health conditions, other mental health conditions. So that was actually one of the biggest barriers of her getting help. So um about a year before she died, she told me that she had suicidal ideology, and over that last year, she did attempt four times at least four times. Prior to that, um, she she had had mental health issues from the first memory I have is when she was 16 to 18, was quite a bad period for her. However, at 18, she managed to move past and moved into a good place and felt very proud of herself. However, two years before she died, she was actually sexually assaulted, and that brought back different feelings, and that was the catalyst for her struggling again with her mental health. As I said, Kalia and I were really close and we spoke about a lot of things. She actually told me that the her first signs of experience problems with mental health was when she was 12, but she never quite understood what it was at 12, um, and I didn't understand at that time. When she was 15, I can't remember if it was 15 or 16, it was probably 15, I noticed um self-harm marks, and I didn't understand self-harm, and I, you know, so I spoke to her. Um, it's really interesting as you understand things as you move through, but to go back to that time, I thought it was attention seeking, I thought it was something that her group was doing. Um, I didn't realize the enormity of it. Um, I think it was the narrative that was around at the time. This is in the 1900s. Um, and so I just said to her, you know, just stop doing it. What are you doing? Stop doing it. I didn't realise that it became such a problem for her, and that became a problem for the rest of her um life.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

When she started experiencing challenges with mental health, was there anything specific going on at the time?

SPEAKER_00 8:36

I was in a relationship at that time, um, and it was quite a toxic relationship, and he was very controlling of myself and Kalia and the rest of our family. So I think that that certainly played a part at that time. Um, and different factors, I mean, everyone's got lives along the way, um, and different factors she didn't have a lot to do with her birth father at that time. Um, so I think she felt a sense of abandonment. There's sort of a lot of layers, I don't think you can attribute it to one specific thing. Um, and of course, there's predisposition as well. We have got mental health issues within our family, both um my side and her birth father's side. So there is, it's never simple. And um, you know, Kalia and I certainly um dealt with a lot of those things in her adult years, and we spoke about them a lot, and especially um with the fact of the um her stepfather, she had really gotten through that and um really understood that situation. Um, however, I think it it always builds part of who you are, it's part of how you're feeling, and um it is a contributor, however, it's never one thing.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Right. So it seems like it was just a very deep-cut wound where you know, she probably f you know, maybe felt like, you know, he wasn't in the like the birth father wasn't really in the picture much, you know, maybe it affected how she felt about herself and how she saw herself. You know, and you see this often. I actually am working with a client now where his father did the did something where they got divorced, his parents, but then after the divorce happened, my client was what, eight at the time. This was back in like late eighties, early nineties, and um, it was at a point where the father would put the responsibility on him to make arrangements for them to spend time together. But you know, and that's one thing I had to explain to him is I said, You were just a child, that was never your responsibility. That was on your dad to make that choice and to make the calls and do it. And Absolutely now from 16 to 18, you said that this is when the ideation started to hit.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, I didn't again realize what it was at the time. It w it wasn't I think there was ideation there, but there wasn't anything overt. I'm just because we talked about it afterwards, it's hard to remember what was happening at the time. Um, she tried to run away from home during that time. Um, that's when she really started self-harming um at that time. Um, and she um took um some medication, you know, and she was quieter and she was um more withdrawn at that time. Um she talked about feeling having feelings of anxiety um and things like that. So that was what happened at that time, I guess. So it wasn't when she had taken the medication. I don't know specifically if that was an attempt or um experimenting with something either.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

And like what was like done during that time then from when she was 16 to 18? Was there any like like partial hospitalizations? Was there any like intense outpatient therapy or anything for her? No.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Because I mean it's because it was it felt at that time it was so minor. That sounds terrible because it wasn't minor at all, but just in how the system was at that time, what people did. She did go to her school counsellor, who was amazing with her at that time. He taught her chess um and taught her about forward thinking and strategy. That's when she really started her songwriting and performing more. So she came there was different strategies that she used. She was always really incredibly self-aware. So she always tried to do different things and to help um in different ways. When she I think when she was 19 is when I left the stepfather, um, and that made a huge difference. However, at 18, she went to university and was able to have a bit more freedom in the home from that. So that also helped at that stage.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Okay, and so like so things did so for the school counselor, he taught her how to play chess, he taught her forward thinking, all very um creative ways and helping somebody learn because chess is all about forward thinking strategy. And so she then went to university. She lived on campus.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

No, she still lived with us. We lived quite close to the university. However, because the timetable was different, I was working near the university so she could hang out with me at work and different things. So we were both of us were in a period of moving away from this toxic relationship, sort of putting in the steps to get away at that time. We spent a lot more time together. During that um toxic relationship, there was a the ex-partner definitely tried to put a wedge between Kalia and I and tried to separate us. So at that time when she was at university, I was taking her into university. We spent a lot more time together and we were able to bridge things and understand actually what the manipulation was and what was happening. So that was quite a a growing time for both of us.

Leaving Abuse And Finding Voice

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Okay. So it's like so it's like when the when the dynamics in the family changed, it seemed like you both had like a growing journey together. Yes. And what did you discover about yourself after that relationship ended? And what did you notice that she also discovered in herself?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

And I think that because we had gone through such an awful experience together, and of course there was a huge amount of guilt from me because obviously I'm the adult and I'm the one participating in the relationship. But it was the understanding of what emotional abuse is, um, what controlling is. It's very, I'm very careful when people talk about those things because people can look from the outside and think, well, why were you in that and how did you do it? But it's done so slowly that you don't realise it's happening at the time. It's not until you take a step back that you think, what was happening? I mean, I remember after I'd separated from him going to counselling, and the counsellor said to me, You know that you're in an abusive relationship, don't you? And I said, No, I didn't, I had no idea. And it's um just really interesting. Um, he was very clever too, because a lot of what he did to Kalia, he he did, he he did cruel things really, uh, just in how he spoke to her, but it was always when I wasn't around. Um, so I actually didn't know the degree to what it was at the time either. So Kalia and I, that is probably one I mean, we were very close. Um she was seven when I met this man, and we were extremely close before then. We always remained close. However, when someone's trying to put a wedge between you or manipulate your relationship, it does strain. So when I left, her and I spoke a lot, we uncovered a lot, um, decided to become, and this is probably why there's a book in the end um about talking about death and grief and suicide so openly, because we had a pact that we would talk about things honestly, authentically, we would just be completely open with each other, and nothing would I mean we were so loyal, like nothing would harm, would rupture us again, I guess. Because we were in that relationship, we weren't allowed to speak. He was in a position of power in the community, so we couldn't even speak to other people outside. No one would have believed us. So it's um it was a really interesting time, and I'm just so lucky that all my children have um accepted how it was, seen how it was, and they don't blame me for it. And of course, I've apologized and I've really gone through every aspect that I could with them and been completely open and honest. So I hope that they really do understand what that time was, and I do think that they do, and I feel very lucky that they are open to that because some people can close down over hurt, and I was the adult, and I was the one that chose to be in that relationship, and I was the one that stayed. So there, you know, it's a lot of responsibility and a lot of acceptance acceptance is the wrong word, but a lot of um, you know, it was my fault, and I carry that.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

But you know, one thing I want to say is, you know, a lot of times when people are in abusive relationships, whether it be emotional or physical, a lot of times people don't realize, especially when it comes to like emotional abuse, physical abuse, people know like that's more obvious, like, oh my God, he hit me or punched me or shoved me to the wall, right? Like that's more like an outward thing. People know quicker this is not good, right? But I think with emotional abuse, there's so much brainwashing that goes on. There's so much emotional manipulation, there's so much love bombing and other things that go into the mix. And I think it makes it harder for people to really understand because you get so brainwashed and so beaten down mentally, right? And I think, you know, and this is where, you know, that's how these people gain power also. The abusers gain power knowing that they like they know how to beat someone down mentally. Because when someone's beaten down mentally, right, their wherewiths, that power is just knocked.

unknown 19:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

There's that imbalance.

Lockdown Triggers And Sexual Assault

SPEAKER_00 19:20

So And it was also financial abuse, which I don't think is talked about enough. So I didn't have I had access to accounts. I didn't know what was in accounts, and if I spent anything, I was it was monitored and I had to explain what it was for. So when you're in that financial abuse and you feel trapped, you don't know if you can actually live on your own anymore. I didn't know I was working, I had a really good job. However, I because he took over everything and had for years, I didn't know if I could leave and afford to live in a house with my children. It's bizarre. And but again, that's another thing that happens over years and years and years. So yeah, it was uh I I look back and I almost can't believe it myself, what happened. And I'm certainly a very different person now than I was then. Yeah. But Kalia was an amazing support, both her and I've got two sons as well, and they were an absolutely amazing support. When I left, my youngest son was only 11. So I Kalia really understood um so young, and Kalia understood that I probably couldn't have left earlier because of him being so young. Sure. And so um both my oldest son and Kalia came to live with me when I left. So that was really amazing. They, you know, they helped out. And um, you know, so we had a really um blessed time for a few years afterwards where we're all back at home together. So that was great.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

When Kalia then went to university and after you had left um and started living in the house alone with the kids, did you notice that she started becoming depressed again?

SPEAKER_00 21:10

So when she was, and and I'm I'm so sorry because and this is a grief thing, time is so hard for me at the moment. It's so slippery, I find recalling when the times were. However, when she was, so she we moved out when she was 19. We went through COVID lockdown um in New Zealand. The lockdown was really harsh. She had had her first real boyfriend and um was going to concerts and had this most amazing freedom. She'd gone and had a big festival and stayed in tents and um she was really, really loving life. Um, the COVID lockdown really was really hard for her. She felt trapped again. I think that it brought up triggers of being back in that household after the lockdown. So we had, I think, six weeks in New Zealand and like nothing was open. No, nothing. You couldn't go to work, nothing. It was a complete lockdown, which was quite different, I believe, from a lot of places in the world. So it was very hard. She couldn't see her boyfriend. Um, and yeah, she found it really difficult. She um so however, we came out of lockdown. She decided that um she wanted to go um and live with people her own age, which was wonderful. And she moved into a shared housing um with people, and um that was wonderful. We had a second lockdown, but she was in we call it a flat here, which is just um so young people living together in renting situation. And Um they had fun during the lockdown and she yeah, she was just really embracing life. Her and her boyfriend were doing extremely well. They'd just decided that they might move in together. This is a f about a year down the track, and she had a party for a joint party for her and her friend. She was about to turn 22 and um had a joint party. Her boyfriend couldn't come to the party. She decided she thought it was great. She felt a bit of freedom that she was doing this. She hadn't had a lot of celebration. And um at that party is when someone, when she was sexually assaulted. So that was um the catalyst. She saw in she sought therapy in New Zealand. It can be funded when there's a sexual assault. However, it took a year to find a therapist. Um, and within that time she was struggling on her own. She did move in with her boyfriend, and things seemed okay. Um, and it was a year later um that she first talked to me about her suicidal thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

So And that's a very tough thing to hear. What was it like for you to hear that this had happened? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

She what upset me is um she said to me, she rang and she said to me that she'd been taken advantage of. And I said, You haven't been taken advantage of, Bub. You know, you were raped. And so it was actually getting that language out there for her, taking away the blame. She felt, you know, she didn't understand. She she sort of said, Was I too friendly? Was I too nice? I said, You weren't too anything. Um, so it was really talking to her about those things. Her boyfriend was really supportive, um, and everyone was supportive. She did speak um about it. She never reported it, and to be honest, I told her not to report it. The reason was that she had been at the party, she had been drinking, she had had some social drugs at that time. You know, my ex-partner was a defense lawyer. So I knew what would happen and how that would be for her. So we did have conversations about it. I said to her, obviously, I completely believe you, obviously. We know this happened, there's no doubt there, but do you want to go through that? And that would have been, I believe, and I still believe, more traumatic for her. In New Zealand, it can take two years for um someone to even be arrested or go through the court process. And again, it becomes his word against her word is an awful system. I mean, it's just, you know, people that get away with this is just awful.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

You know, the huge part of it being consent, you know, even if she was drinking or doing social drugs, that still doesn't mitigate what he had done, you know, by any means. And she would not have been able to consent, right? And that's one of the landmarks of when you talk about somebody who had been raped, right, is that ability to consent.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Yes. It was a protection for her. And she did find it hard. People can be very judgmental in these places. And she did have people say to her, to her face, but if you don't report it, he'll go out and do it again. And she took that really to heart. And I said to her, that's not your responsibility. Your responsibility and my responsibility is your health and how you're feeling. If you want to report it and if that's important, I'll support you. But it is not your responsibility to put yourself through something that you may be attacked or might be harmful to you to prevent it happening to someone else.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

And so she was uh a year then, she had to wait for like a year to go to a therapist.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Yeah.

Treatment Safety Plans And Art Therapy

SPEAKER_01 26:54

And did she find like the did she end up then going and finding somebody she could connect with a little bit? She did find a therapist.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

However, it was actually she on her first attempt, her therapist w session was the next day. So she was discharged from hospital to go to the therapy session. So yeah, that's how long it took.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Okay, so she did go to the hospital for Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Okay. Yes, she did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

And was there anything like did they give her medicine?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Did they do any kind of like Yeah, so um she had an amazing doctor who so prior to the therapist, she had an amazing doctor who she had a wonderful relationship with, um, who saw her very regularly over those couple of years. So she was prescribed anti-anxiety medication, antidepressants. Um she another thing that sort of happened around that time is she just felt unsafe. So it was about trying to keep her safe. So she had always she had really enjoyed running and um she couldn't run anymore. She couldn't be on her own anymore. So we, you know, it was having to wrap around her and um her partner and I and her friends, just so that she felt safe. But she did go on medication. Um, but the medication was really hard for her, so she stopped running and doing those things. So her fitness went down. The medication made her put on a lot of weight, and she found that really hard. Um, especially being a young person, people don't understand that enough and they sort of think it's quite superficial, but how you're feeling about yourself internally, and then if it externally you're also changing, you feel like you don't understand yourself or what's happening. So that played another, that was another layer that didn't help her mental health issues and how she was feeling.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

So it seems like there just a lot happening all at once with you know, dealing with the assault, dealing with the just the whole, you know, the depression that sued after, probably, you know, the other triggers that probably came about too. And on uh, you know, then also having just come out of COVID. Yes, where, you know, that was hard.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Yeah, and the theme was safety, wasn't it? I mean, COVID, we all felt unsafe. Um, and then with the assault, she felt more unsafe, you know, in this world that yeah, it wasn't holding her. She yeah, she really just felt completely unsafe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

So So how long did she then st see this other therapist then after the therapist?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Um she saw yeah, she saw the the therapist for I think about a year. Um she stopped seeing the therapist probably about six months before she died, I think. Yeah.

unknown 29:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

With this therapist, did you notice that she was making any kind of progress with this therapist? Did she ever feel like she did, or was it kind of like she didn't connect well at all?

SPEAKER_00 29:59

No, Kalia always made progress. She always tried. In fact, when I spoke about at the at the funeral, I always said that she was one of the strongest people I know because she tried and she tried. So her therapist was an art therapist. Kalia loved art and loved expressing herself. And her therapist took her through a lot of projects, a lot of things that she could do that she could help to, because help to get out the thoughts in her head. Kalia's a great overthinker. And so actually being able to express herself through her body and through her art really, really helped her. And um, that's the important thing that when she was going, especially from the first attempt, so the first attempt to her death was just over a year, and through that time she did everything she could to make a difference. You know, she wanted to live basically, and she wanted to um get better, and she did try everything. We were very much into self-care and we would do projects together and different things together and really um try, try and try and try. And yeah, so she did um credible progress. However, different things would happen and she'd fall back down. I mean, there's a lot of job losses over the world, so she had lost her job. She had been however she did find one straight after that. Her and her boyfriend did break up over that time. There was a lot of, you know, and they are life things, but when you've got other mental health issues going on and it's just impacting all the time, there was just a lot of layering that made it a difficult time for her as well. And that rewiring of her brain, understanding what is happening, she wasn't as clear as she used to be. I think that she definitely felt she was becoming a burden. Um, I think that after multiple attempts, people didn't know how to how to deal with her and they needed to protect themselves as well. Depression's very hard to sit around. Um, so people were moving away from her life. Yeah. So she was feeling more and more isolated.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Did she feel like her friends, the ones that she grew up around, were they kind of distancing themselves?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

And and that can be many things. I mean, life is busy and people get busy. And she I don't think she understood that sometimes. She took everything and and this is how her brain was working at the time. I think she took everything extremely personally. So if someone wasn't messaging her or if someone wasn't able to hang out, she thought that it was because of her. Whereas we know that people are going through their own things. People have their own lives that they're dealing with. But that is something that she did struggle with a lot. But I it wasn't from a clear mind.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Well, she went through a lot of tough stuff. And you know, when you look at, you know, how she would take things personally if she felt like somebody was not able to hang out or was not messaging her back. You know, if you think about, you know, just some of the stuff you'd shared, it makes a lot of sense why she would feel that way and feel like it was an a was a personal attack against her, given everything that she's been through. And it's not easy, it's tough. And honestly, you know, hearing this, my heart breaks for her.

Love Myths And Suicide Questions

SPEAKER_00 33:33

I agree. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Don't those deeply empathetic people that take everything on board. Yeah. The only thing that you with someone that is suicidal is to be there. That's the only thing that you can just sit in their space and be there and listen to the uncomfortable. Did I do everything perfectly? Absolutely not. You know, there was, you know, you don't want to believe that someone that you love so much. I used to, you know, and I mean, every parent feels like this, I'm sure, but if she could see herself through my eyes, it would be a whole different scenario. And how we view ourselves is very different sometimes than how we are. Um, and but the main thing was that she was incredibly loved. And I mean, if love could have saved her, I would have saved her. Absolutely. There's nothing, you know, that they wouldn't have done. So I take solace in the fact that she always knew that she was loved.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yes, yes. And she also seemed like herself to be love as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yes. Well, she taught me, in all honesty, what unconditional love meant. Her and all my children. That's what they have taught me as a family. Um, yeah. And I think that's an amazing lesson, you know, that reciprocal. She knew we used to have a terrible saying. And it was a funny saying, and it was always, if something had happened, I would say, Do you need me to bring the shovel? Or she would do that too. Meaning that she could ring me with any single problem and that I would um go and help her with no questions asked. So the bring the shovel is, you know, if there's a body that something happened and I needed to bury it. So we had that incredible relationship. But I do probably want to touch on something that's really important to me that I think a lot of people struggle with. And this is why I actually wrote um the second book, because there's a narrative out there that suicide is a choice, and suicide is not a choice, and it can be um really hard for people left after that. I remember seeing um a podcast once with a mother very upset and her son had died and by suicide, and she kept saying, why did he not choose me? Why did he not choose the love that I had? And I just one, I knew how much Kalia loved me. So I never had to deal with that, and I just felt so sad for someone that had to deal with it. So when I say suicide is not a choice, it is not a choice from a logic brain. So obviously it's a choice. However, the brain is very damaged at that stage. They're not Kalia didn't want to die, she just wanted to not have pain and she wanted to not feel trapped and that she was a burden to people. That's not a choice, you know. That's it's from a damaged brain. And when, you know, just as human beings, as animals, I guess, when you're in pain, you get out of it. And that's what the brain is doing. It's not a choice. It's not you and I sitting here today thinking, oh, you know, shall I do this today? It's nothing like that. It's at a time where the pain becomes so much that survival becomes about death. Yeah. Because the survival is getting rid of the pain, if that if that makes sense.

Writing Through Shock And Grief

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Oh, it makes complete sense, you know, as someone who's struggled with mental health throughout her life here. I you wrote this book. Um The year after Calia.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

What was how did you find out about her dad and so the book um actually it's um it starts off and it goes through everything. I found when I was going through when I was grieving, and I'm still grieving, I'm gonna grieve the rest of my life. So it's a weird thing, but the initial stages, I guess. Um I didn't I felt that what what was out there was sort of platitudes or not really going into the depth of it. And I wanted to write about I wanted to write from the wreckage, basically. So I speak in the book about exactly what happened. Um, not in a morbid way, but I mean exactly what happened in my own brain, the shock thing, the strange things you have to deal with, all these things. So Kalia's death um it it was hard actually, because she lied to me. And it was one of the first times that she did lie to me. So she had actually taken medication on a Wednesday night. I was out, and she didn't die, but she became very ill. And she on the Thursday I saw her. She was living at home at the time, and she just said she was feeling sick, and I thought she had the flu or something like that. She was vomiting. And um, on the Friday, she asked me if I would work from home, and um, I said I would. And so I worked from home and she was really sick, and we had to ring the doctor, and the doctor sort of said, if you if she doesn't get better in a couple of hours, you'll need to go to the hospital. She said, Mum, I think we need to go to the hospital. She still didn't say anything. Um, and she didn't tell anyone until the blood results had come back. So basically by that point, she had like was going through organ failure. So it was it wasn't a quick um thing. And where I say that she lied to me is because she didn't tell me she'd taken anything. She'd always told me in the past, so it sort of breached our trust relationship a bit. I did notice some self-harm, and I said, you know, did you hurt yourself, Bubby? And she said, No. So I just yeah, it was a it was a hard one. So she died on this Saturday night.

unknown 39:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

So it was it was not pleasant.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

And um And what was the feelings and the thoughts that rushed through you, you know, upon that, upon her dying, upon just the grief? Like how do you feel like that affected you?

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah, and it's I have not dealt with grief in my life. I mean, I've had sort of divorces and I've had like my birth father died, all these things. No one close to me has ever died. A whole new terrain. Um, so I think for me, I mean, the whole first year is about shock. That's all it is. Like, and bay and writing the book was really important because I wrote journals. I wrote a lot of them. Kalia and I would speak on the phone three or four times a day. So having that severed connection was awful. So I used to write to her all the time to keep that connection alive. And I would write to her and I would ask her questions and I would rant and rave. I felt that that was my witness that I could get things out of my head and into the writing. So that's where the book came from. Now then when I was looking at the book and it started off as a memoir, then I really wanted to understand what was happening, why I felt the way I did. You know, that it's so hard when you're dealing with work and you know, and I was crazy. I didn't have to go back to work, but I did. You just I didn't know what to do. And I've, you know, since found out that our processing part of our brain completely shuts down in grief. So you don't know what to do, and you just do what you think you should do. But I would go to work and I would sort of try to answer an email and I'd have no idea what was going on. It was really incredible for me. But at the time, you feel like you need to get back into routine, that you need to get back into your life, and no one's really helping you along this way. Like people are too scared, especially, especially with suicide, especially with child loss. People don't talk to you, they ignore it. I don't know. It's like they either feel it's contagious or they're gonna say the wrong things or they're going to upset you. Well, I'm upset anyway, so having a conversation is not gonna upset me. Talking about her, I love doing all the time. Why I love the book. But so I needed to understand what was happening with my body and understand what was going on. And I think that that made such a difference to me, just knowing that I wasn't crazy. We live in a society that anything that's a little bit out of the ordinary or anything that is a little bit hard, we sort of clam up about. And I discovered that what I was going through, for want of a better word, was fairly normal, that there wasn't something wrong with me. And that's mental health in an issue, isn't it? I mean, grief and mental health are very aligned. Um, but the minute that I felt that it wasn't my fault, that I wasn't doing anything wrong, that this was just how my brain was working. My brain was sitting there trying to protect me in the only way it knew how. And so, you know, I would feel numb and then I would forget things. Like I started to worry that I would forget Kalia, and then you become obsessed with those thoughts. So that's actually also where the book came from because I was terrified that I would forget anything about her. So yeah, it was a whole process, an interesting one.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

How do you feel like this process of grieving? How do you feel it's changed you and changed your relationships with others?

SPEAKER_00 43:15

It's so interesting because for so long I thought, I'm not any different, I'm the same person that I was, but I think we're always essentially the same person. I mean, I look at Carliera when she was six months a year old, and there's things that are completely similar to when she was 24. You know, there's some core things, and I think we sort of latch onto those. I've still got my humour, I've still um like to find joy in little things. However, I realized that I had when I took a step back and looked at my world, I realized that I had completely fundamentally changed. And the way that I fundamentally changed is one, I'm honest in every scenario. I always was to an extent, but now I will go and have the deep conversations. I can't do surface level conversations anymore, and my tolerance for small, little petty things has completely gone down. I am far more curious and I want to know what's happening in the world around me, what's happening to our bodies, what's happening with people. I have great empathy for people and I love to sit and just talk to people and hear what is happening for them. Um, I want to be the person that people can sit with and feel safe. So a huge change.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

What is one thing that you would like to share with people who may have gone through a similar situation to you or may have just recently lost somebody they knew or loved to suicide? What is what are things you know that? You can draw from the book that you wrote, or just your own personal transformation after grief?

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Well, the main thing is you can't do anything wrong. You can't do grieving wrong. There's no rule book. You do it the way you need to do it. And that is okay. Um I and there is no timeline. They, you know, and and I hope it's I hope it's moving along, but there was such a concept for such a long time about the five stages of grief. There is no stages. I would love to there to be a stage and I could tick off each one and move through, but there is nothing. It's an ongoing process. Also, the other thing is I don't want my grief to go. I want to keep my grief with me. My grief is how much, you know, it's my love for Kalia. So I will grieve her until the day that I die. Um, and that's okay. We don't need to move forward. We don't need to have a growth mindset or find purpose from death. It just is. I mean, I have obviously written a book. I've also um have a website called This Is Grief. So it's become very central in my life, but that's been part of my journey. I often talk about that Kalia started the story and I'm continuing it. So it's part of my honouring her. So I have changed my whole life around this grief, and I really enjoy the work. I really enjoy talking with people, and I feel like I'm doing it side by side with Kalia, so it helps keep her alive for me. But equally, if I was doing nothing and continuing with my life, that would also be okay. You don't have to uh produce something or sit in a growth mindset. Death is really hard, and it is an ending, and we all do things completely differently, and that is absolutely okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

Yes, and definitely when we talk about grief for sure, there's no right or wrong way to grieve, and it doesn't come is in stage in stages that you could just like check off. You know, it's just one of those things that just is and something that is there. And it seems like for you too, you know, the grief that you went through, it changed how you want to relate to people, especially you want to be more real, you want more authentic relationships. You're not all about just small talk anymore.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yeah, yeah. I find small talk hard. If you ask me to go anywhere with small talk, I will completely avoid it. It's the depth of relationship that is so important for me now and not being afraid to have those conversations. I had a wonderful conversation actually with a friend at work the other day, and he had a friend that he hadn't spoken to in about three months, which was unusual for him. And he ended up catching up with this person and just asked him straight up, Are you okay? What is happening? This is not like you. Is there anything that I need to be aware of? Thing uh is your mental health okay? And I just thought that was incredibly amazing. Like that's such bravery and such a wonderful step and shows such a strength of connection between people. So you can change relationships too.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

And that is a very powerful thing. And I wish more people would actually ask, you know, like if they see something, you know, in someone change, right? If they have that close enough relationship to do this, or or even if they just know this person well enough to be like to ask, hey, how are you really? Or how's your mental health? How's life treating you? That was another one I like. You know, I like it when people ask, How's life treating you?

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Yeah. And and also with suicide, there's been a narrative for a long time that you don't talk to people about it and because it's going to make them do it. False.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

That's the biggest fallacy.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Yeah, you can say to people, are you feeling suicidal? Are you thinking about ending your life? And a lot of us think about this. It's not it's not not normal to think about it, and it's okay. What's awful is when you're shut down over it. So you can ask those questions. You're not going to make anyone do it by asking a question. You actually by being direct with someone and someone feels seen and then hopefully heard if they feel like talking, um, can actually that can help them, but actually ignoring it does nothing.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

No, it doesn't. And it makes a person feel even more alone.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

But then also, too, you know, we had mentioned before, you know, you know, just the blowback that people give as well, right? Like if somebody, and here's the thing, as much as we want people to talk about their mental health, we want people to be open and share and vulnerable, you know, one thing I notice is when people try to be vulnerable, especially on places like social media platforms. I know I understand social media, that's not the best place to be vulnerable, right? But, you know, even with uh, you know, sometimes just even making a remark gets people all up at arms. Why are you saying this? And oh, you're not depressed. What are you talking about? Or you've got a great life. You know, and that's and unfortunately, you know, we uh, you know, our society has become it's become like a duality almost. It's like, you know, it's like you want one thing. People want one thing, but then when it's when it presents itself, it becomes something else.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

I agree. And I think that there's so many platitudes. There's so like mental health awareness, suicide awareness, all these things. But and it's great to have that, don't get me wrong. However, the real work is sitting with someone and someone, I mean, I even get it in grieving when I say, you know, my daughter has died. People will say, I'm so sorry, and that's it. And that is fine to say, absolutely fine to say, but what do I say in return? I say, oh, thanks. Well, okay, or ignore it. Whereas what people can actually say is, I'm really sorry to hear about your loss, tell me about your daughter. I'm really sorry to hear about your loss, tell me, you know, how are you doing now? Opening up the conversation. So I think that there can sometimes be a lot of fear. So someone that says to you, I want to kill myself, or I'm feeling this way, you do freak out.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

You absolutely, it's a horrible thing to hear. You've got to take yourself out of it. And you can say, Why would you want to do that? And that's okay, because I think people get a little bit scared when they have a wrong response, so they decide to have no response. But you can correct it. So you can say, Why would you want to do that? And then you can take a moment and say, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to say that. That was my initial reaction because I love you and I care for you. Can you talk to me about this more? You know, so there's not the worst thing you can do is not talk about it. So I'm really careful about not people not feeling fearful of saying the wrong thing. We say the wrong thing all the time. People, and that's fine. Oh, I mean, I used to believe wholeheartedly in everything happens for a reason. I certainly don't believe that anymore. There is no reason that my 24-year-old daughter should have gone through what she went through and died. But we we all have these sort of quotes or things in the back of our mind. And when you're feeling stressed, those automatically come out. So, and that's okay. You can't stop that, but you can stop it when you realize that that's what you've done and open the conversation up.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

Yes, I think it's such a important thing that people know how to hold space. Yes, yeah for someone. One thing I used to hear often when I was growing up people who say they want to kill themselves just are doing it for attention.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

I know. There's so many lies that they're selfish, they're doing it for attention, all kinds of things. I can tell you it is not for attention because it is often hidden. Um, and they're not even thinking that. And it is not selfish. They get to the point where they actually feel that they're a burden and people would be better off. And in their horrible brain mind, Kalia, I mean, I I had people say to me that why, you know, why would Kalia do this to you? She didn't do it to me. She absolutely I'm not a victim. She did not do anything to me. It was about her pain and her life, and I'm quite separate from it. She loved me so much that she wouldn't have ever wanted to hurt me.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

I think it's a complicated thing to deal with, and what you went through is very painful and very complex.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Very.

unknown 53:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

And it's with your book and your writing, it seems like you know, it was also a cathartic thing for you.

Journaling Rituals Books And Closing

SPEAKER_00 53:59

Absolutely. Yeah. And in the book, um, so I do go through, so there's the sort of memoir side, there's the what's happening in the body. And because I found writing and sort of I I call them rituals in the book. I never thought of them as rituals before. I went through a program with people dealing with suicide and they called it rituals, and I thought, oh, that's good. So um there's a third element of the book, which is writing exercises and journaling and just getting things out there. So there's an element of what you can do. And when I say rituals, it's small things like when I used to forget what day it was, just writing down what the day was if I needed to, or um actually just taking a breath, um, feeling in your body, you know, those times where you feel incredible anxiety, you know, counting five things. All those things are all in the books of little exercises that people can do because I found myself, and you can do them or not do them, you know, it's your prerogative, but I found writing extremely cathartic. There's something about, I mean, I would write awful things, you know, um, you know, and I would write everything out. You know, I would certainly felt anger and things like that. As a society, we're not encouraged to display anger. So, oh, write everything down. Um, you know, I read back on it not very often. But it's really interesting of where I was at. But it was so freeing to be able to give myself permission to do that. So part of the book is about giving people permission to just be real and there's nothing wrong with it.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

Where can people find your books and how can people get a get a hold of you if they wanted to come and you know reach out to you or connect to you?

SPEAKER_00 55:48

So I have a site called This Is Grief New Zealand. And so um, that's a a site with a lot of resources. It's got my books on there as well as different things that can help people through grieving or people that are supporting someone that is grieving. Um so and my books are at my launch, it's actually the 21st of February, and my books are available anywhere online. So Amazon and Barnes and Noble, and it's also an audio book. So if anyone wants to listen to my voice a bit more, they can have an audio book. I hate the audiobook, I have to say. I don't hate it, I just hate hearing my own voice. But it was really important to me because, especially in early grief, um reading can be really difficult. So actually being able to listen to something was important for me as well. So I put my pride aside and recorded the audiobook. And it's also on Kindle, Apple, Apple Books, and yeah, all over the show.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story. I know that this was not easy to talk about. I know this is very difficult. And once again, my condolences about your daughter. And for anyone out there who is listening to this, please know that you are loved. Your presence in this world matters.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:09

And, you know, please know that if you do need any kind of help, you know, 988 is the number to call, at least here in the US. Um, and there's also psychotherapists available. If you really are in uh imminent danger, please go to your nearest emergency room. Just know that if you ever are feeling the way that Calia felt or any others out there that you may have known who who maybe personally have died by suicide, just know that there is help available. And we thank you so much, Kirsten, for being here. And Kirsten's information is gonna be in the show notes. So I would encourage everybody to check out her books, her website. And remember if you liked today's episode, to please subscribe, rate, and share with your family and friends. And I will be back again soon with more episodes. Thank you.