The IEP Meeting That Made Me Throw Up with Paula J. Yost

One bad IEP meeting can change your body, your sleep, and your faith in the “village” everyone promises you. I’m joined by Paula J Yost, who has a perspective you rarely hear in one voice: she’s both a practicing attorney and a licensed psychotherapist. Paula shares how living through clinical depression shaped her, why getting real mental health support in law school changed her future, and how those therapy tools now show up in the way she helps people in legal settings filled with anxiety, grief, and high stakes decisions. 

We get painfully specific about special education advocacy and what it feels like to sit in an IEP or 504 meeting and realize you’re being dismissed. Paula tells the story of fighting for her son, who was born with a cleft lip and palate and needed speech therapy early, and why families should not have to “work around the system” just to get basic services. She explains why “we can’t afford it” is not a valid answer when a child is entitled to a Free Appropriate Public Education (FAPE), and she offers practical steps to prepare: define the goal, walk in with a plan, and keep bringing the conversation back to the supports your child needs. 

We also talk policy and reality, including fears about Department of Education cuts, debates around school choice and opportunity scholarships, and why early intervention and early childhood education funding can prevent bigger problems later. Throughout it all, Paula comes back to the same message: you deserve support too, and the right village is built on people who will stand with you, celebrate the wins, and help you stay steady. 

Paula can be found on Instagram and FaceBook as Paula J Yost Author. Paula is the author of the book "Tumbleweeds. How to be an Advocate For Your "Children and Yourself in a Failing System." Paula referenced organizations in the podcast episode with links (including the one to her book) provided all below:

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tumbleweeds-paula-j-yost/1149570835

https://mhanational.org/

https://www.theamazinggraceproject.com/

If you find this helpful, subscribe, share with a parent who needs it, and leave a review so more families can find these tools.

Transcript

From Lawyer To Therapist

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of On the Spectrum with Sonia. You know when people talk about finding that pearl in the oyster, today is that brilliant moment because our guest, not only is she a psychotherapist, she is also a practicing attorney. She does estate planning and intellectual property and does counseling for mainly adults. She is the author of an upcoming book called Tumbleweeds: How to Be an Advocate for Your Children and Yourself in a Failing System, which we will discuss. Paula is also a survivor of preeclampsia and is a mother to a child with cleft palate and has an adopted daughter and with us today to share her journey and her story without further ado. Thanks, Sonia. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here on On the Spectrum. Thank you. Thank you. We're excited to have you here. And I'm gonna start off with this question right off the bat, because I'm sure our audience is dying to hear this. What prompted you to become a psychotherapist after you've already been practicing as a lawyer?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Well, when I was young, um, I absolutely suffered from clinical depression. Um, I was extremely depressed. I can identify two times in my past. One was when I was 17, a junior in high school, and one was in my second year of law school, where I was deeply clinically depressed. And I didn't get help for it when I was 17 because I just didn't have the resources available to me in 1997 in my mom and dad's house. But when I was in law school, I had a wonderful law professor who was real, who noticed that I wasn't exactly okay. And she got me the resources that I need to go to counseling. And so that counselor probably changed my life because he taught me coping skills and he taught me how to handle and understand what was going on with me. And so after I finished law school, I realized that, you know what, the law can only help you, but so far, like it definitely has limitations on what it's able to do. And I went to law school because I wanted to help people. I mean, I had classmates who some of them really did it because they wanted to make money. And, you know, good for them. That's fine. I'm not here to judge anyone's motives. But I did it because I truly wanted to help people. And so when I graduated, it wasn't satisfying because I felt like I wasn't always able to help. Like you can't always help in family law as a lawyer because you can't help somebody deal with the grief they're having over their marriage ending. And so I decided I was gonna go back to grad school. And I went back to grad school and I got my master's degree in clinical mental health, and I did all the hours that my state requires, and then I became a licensed therapist on top of being an attorney.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

That is so amazing. And it's probably very cathartic in many ways to be able to give back in different ways and, you know, also learn more about you in that process as well. Correct. Correct. So when you went into law school, you said that you wanted to help people. What did you envision when you first went to law school?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Let us be clear that I had no idea. And whatever I thought, I was wrong. I went to Virginia Tech in the late 90s, and I actually graduated from Virginia Tech during 9-11. Like when two, when the planes hit the Twin Towers, I was a senior at Virginia Tech. And so there were no jobs. The job markets for college students all crashed. And I was like, well, I think I'm gonna go to law school. So I went and I took the LSAT, and I mean, I didn't rock star it or anything, but I did well enough to get admitted to school. And so I went to law school. And in my mind, being a lawyer meant that I would be able to seek justice for people and I would be able to be a voice for people who couldn't help themselves. Um, I I was thinking about law in a Perry Mason type way. Sure. I'm a first generation college student, so I really didn't have a gauge on what law would really be. And I think that happens to a lot of young lawyers.

Naming Depression And Learning Coping Skills

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Sure, sure. And I think a lot of times when people go to law school, they have this idea, you know, that it's gonna be a certain way. But then when you get out in the real world, you realize it's nothing than what you really thought it was. Not at all. So you you did your L sets, you went to law school. You this is where a professor noticed you weren't quite okay. You went into counseling. And what was an eye-opening thing you learned about yourself in that process of being in counseling?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

I think it was just the knowledge that many of the things that I was experiencing were normal. I was a clinically depressed 20-something and I had been a clinically depressed 17-year-old, but I didn't know what that was. Like I grew up in evangelical Christianity where I was told to just pray my sadness away, or that if my relationship with God was stronger, I wouldn't feel the way I was feeling then. And that just made me feel worse. So when I started seeing my therapist, he was actually in Media, Pennsylvania, right outside Philadelphia. When I started seeing him, he was like, You're just depressed. And we started talking about the things in my life that could have potentially led to me feeling that way. And he was really good at helping me unpack the fact that there was nothing wrong with me. I was just suffering from depression. And that's something we could learn how to cope with and we could learn how to fix and we could prevent from occurring in the future. But no one had ever told me before that this is something that can just occur and that there was help. It was just like a personal failure before.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

And what was it like for you to realize that, you know, to go through and get the help? And what did you realize like was, I guess, behind a lot of why you were depressed? What did you realize?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

It well, first of all, it felt like freedom. It felt like hopeful. And it felt like, okay, I can do life. Like I can do this. I think a lot of my issues and were one, I was a first generation college student. So I really didn't have very much family support. I mean, I think my mom and dad loved me very much and they did the best that they could. But I just didn't have a lot of family support when I was starting off. And I also had no money. Like my college fund had$0.00 in it. So I really didn't have, I was on my own. I felt really on my own. And I always felt a lot of pressure when I was in school. But my mom is, my mom has a personality disorder. Like I think my mother loves me very much and she loves me as much as anyone could. But she grew up in a really violent, abusive household with a lot of alcoholism. And so some of the time my mom has trouble with emotional regulation. And when she raised me, I think she wasn't able to teach me how to regulate myself because she didn't know how to regulate herself. So when I got into therapy, I found a professional who was able to give me that foundational building block that I genuinely didn't have. And I'm very, I was so thankful and still am. I'm so thankful for everything that that professor helped me learn and helped me really like get myself together so that I could be successful.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

And to come to this realization and realize that this is a history that runs rather deep in the family. How did that change your outlook on things and change your outlook on how you view your family?

Family Patterns And Healthier Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Yeah. So, first of all, it gave me some better boundaries. It helped me really understand like what was okay for me to do, what I could leave in the past, what I wanted in the future. It helped me see myself as an independent person instead of an offshoot of my mom and dad. It taught me what my mom's personality disorder was and how to manage it. But most of all, it just helped me feel like I was never academically incapable, but I was struggling with my emotional thoughts, which were ruminating. And once I got those under control, I was able to cook with gas school-wise.

Why Dual Careers Prevent Burnout

SPEAKER_00 9:08

And that must have been just like a weight lifted off your shoulders at that point, knowing that you had language to put around it. You had a course of action that you could take around it. Absolutely. So going into now finishing law school, going to grad school, getting your counseling degree, you are currently practicing law in and you're also doing therapy as well. That's correct. What's it like to manage both of these jobs?

SPEAKER_01 9:37

In all honesty, I love it. And I think that so many more lawyers, I think the lawyers that are like me, so you know, on the Myers-Brig test, I'm an ENFJ. And most lawyers are ENTJs. But I think for that percentage of us that have that feeling aspect, I think so many of us should look at doing exactly what you and I have done and getting that counseling wing. And here's why. First of all, nobody's ever called a lawyer because they were having a great day. If you're in a lawyer's office, you are upset and anxious about something. And I always want to help those people. So even when I'm doing a legal consult, I can't delete my therapist's mind out of my brain. So I'm always, I mean, when you hire me to be a lawyer, you're hiring me to be a lawyer and not your therapist. And I am very good at those boundaries. But still, I feel like it makes me a better lawyer. It makes me more trauma-informed. It makes me better able to help people that are dealing with grief or whatever it is that they're facing. And then when I shift and put on my therapist hat, then I'm not thinking about the law. That helps me extend past where law is limited. So I can really get into things like, well, the law couldn't help you with this, but maybe we should reframe those thoughts, or maybe we should come up with a different plan of attack based on where you are. And to be honest with you, I think doing both things prevents burnout. Like I say, anytime I get sick of being a lawyer, I'm like, well, I can just go be a therapist full time. And I can say the same thing about being a therapist. You know, if anything goes wrong, I'll just go practice law. And so it's given me a lot more professional freedom, but it's also given me a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction that I would not have otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

So you're doing mainly intellectual property and estate planning. So you are seeing people that, you know, are obviously shake, you know, a little bit anxious about something, getting their affairs in order.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

You know, their stuff patented, you know, they're wanting to make sure they get things down.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

I had a Friday a couple weeks ago where I had a mother who had lost her son, a widower, and then a uh sibling who had lost her brother every hour. So every hour I had somebody crying in front of me and talking about grief. Nobody prepares lawyers for how to do that. There's no part of law school that teaches you how to deal with people who are upset.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Absolutely not. If anything, what law school teaches you how to be is how do you get your winning case? How do you how do you make them more upset? Exactly, exactly, especially on cross-examination, right? Right. And that's not who I am at all.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Like I would be a terrible litigator because I'm just not mean.

SPEAKER_00 12:21

You know what? I was I was not the same, I was the same way too. Like, I'm not a confrontational person at all. I mean, if anything, anybody who knows me knows I hate confrontation. And so I was not like that at all. And similar to you, I I had a law degree for mainly, you know, I went because my parents kind of pushed the issue and it goes runs deep why I went to law school. But I'll say this I thought I wanted to make a difference too. And but even when you look at different aspects of the law, it is very limiting. Even special ed law. I tried to open up practice with it at one point. It is very limiting, though, because these families are hurting who are coming into your office. Like the cases that you read about, these people are hurting. These people need support. And the thing is also when you're in a legal system with a school district that has a lot of power anyway, because the schools tend to have more power. That in and of itself, right there, it's like you're fighting for the rights, but it every nickel and dime of emotion as well.

The IEP Meeting Breaking Point

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Absolutely. I'm I consider myself to be a pretty like tough cookie. I mean, I know I sound nice and stuff, but like I'm not a crier and I'm not an overly emotional person. I will never forget the day that I left my son's IEP meeting and I had I left his meeting and I had to go pick him up from preschool. And I pulled over in a CVS parking lot and I cried so hard I threw up in a coffee cup. And I don't want anyone to feel that way. No one should feel that way. That must have been a really tough meeting. It was a tough meeting, but it was it was a frustrating meeting. But I think I think one of the reasons I was so upset leaving there is because, in all honesty, my son's issues pale in comparison to what I see some other parents dealing with. My little boy has a high IQ, but he was born with a complete cleft lip and palate. And so when he was a little guy, he needed a tremendous amount of speech therapy because I mean he was born without a roof in his mouth. And his doctors were telling me he needed to get speech therapy. So I was very focused on getting my little guy the services that he needed. And I don't know the first thing about speech pathology. So it wasn't like I could do a lot at my house. I don't know how to teach a two-year-old where to put his tongue. So this was a big deal. It was something that was really important to me. And I felt like when I went into that meeting, I felt like I was ganged up on. I felt like a bunch of people who didn't know my child, who didn't know his medical history. I mean, I've probably read 800 medical journals about Clef Pallant because when I was pregnant, I became absolutely obsessed with learning how to take care of him. And so I did all this research. Like, I know Cleff Pallant really well. I'm not an expert in everything, but I know that. I probably know that better than I know my two professions because I needed to know how to raise my little boy. And I love him more than anything. And so when I went in there, I felt like anything I had to say was just discredited. And it felt awful. And I was I was mad and I was furious, and I walked out of there and I remember thinking, you know what? Screw these people. I'll just go make enough money that I'll figure out how to pay for him to get speech therapy privately. Like, screw the system. I'll figure out how to work around it. But then I got so angry, I was like, I shouldn't have to do that. And what are other people supposed to be able to do? Like what happens to the stay-at-home mom who has her own cleft palette child who can't just go make enough money to circumvent the system, what she's supposed to do. And God, God only knows what happens with these parents who have a child with a much more profound and much more serious need. No one should feel that way. Absolutely no one should walk out of an IEP meeting feeling like no one cared or listened. You know, we tell mothers all the time it takes a village, and it does. It does take a village. But when the village is failing you and when you're desperate for help, you're also fighting your insurance company most of the time. You if if the insurance would pay for things like OTPT speech therapy, nobody would ever be barking up the school systems tree to get those type of services because they would be getting them through their health insurance. But when you're not getting those types of services and you have to go to the school to receive them and then you don't get your help, it just feels it makes you feel so alone and so abandoned. And so I have a huge heart for these other parents who are in truly dire situations with their kids. Or and don't have the means. We are able yes, we are failing them.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

We as a culture are failing them. And so when you gave it some thought, what was your plan of action then with that? Did you ever go back and I sued them.

Why Parents Feel Abandoned

Skip The Lawyer And Find Advocates

SPEAKER_01 17:21

I mean, I I felt kind of bad saying that, but I did. I sued them. And I'm legally allowed to say that we settled that matter out of court. But there again, I'm a lawyer. I was able to figure out how to do that. I was able to have the resources to accomplish that. Everybody can't. I will tell you what I tell other mothers, though, who call me and who want to know they're in that exact same situation I was in or a worse one, and they want to know what do I do? And here is what I tell them. I actually tell them not to get a lawyer because what will happen to them, and this may not be true nationwide, but this is definitely true in North Carolina where I live. If you go into a school system meeting, into an IEP or a 504 and you have your attorney, that meeting is effectively going to stop because the school district is going to tell you they're not going to have a conversation with you if you have an attorney there, unless their attorney can be there. And then getting those schedules to line up will take so long that you'll be three to four months down the road and the school year will be done. And for these little people, like I think people forget some of the time how important like first grade, second grade is. Like that's when your little person is learning how to read. So if they're not able to speak, they're not able to learn the foundational things that they need to attain reading proficiency and literacy. Sure. And so I don't want to see a parent one spend thousands of dollars on an attorney who may or may not be able to get her very far. And I also don't, and most of them can't afford it anyway. If you actually have that much money, I would rather you just circumvent the system and go pay privately for the therapy your child needs anyway. But the other thing that I don't like to see is that time that the time that gets wasted. Like our kids don't have time for this. If our kid has a need, the kid needs the need to get met. And so my community has a wonderful, we actually have two of them. We have two nonprofits that are run by retired special needs educators and special needs mothers who their children are grown now. So, like doing IEP meetings was like their job for 18 years. Those people are angels and they are great. They will go to these IEP and 504 meetings with parents. They will advocate for the child, they will meet the child. They will be able to stand up for you when you're too emotional. And they also know what to ask for, and they know when the school system's trying to do something that's really not appropriate. I think that many of them actually do better than some of the attorneys that I've worked with because I mean, special education law is also not widely taught in law school. I mean, if you get it, it's an elective. Like I never knew in law school that I should learn about special education law because I might have a special needs kid that would need that type of assistance. And so I love being able to just tell those moms, call Amazing Grace Advocacy or Mental Health America. Somebody at one of those entities is going to be able to help you and take care of you. And they're not going to cost anything. That's the best day because that's the best possible outcome, at least in my neck of the woods.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

So they will be providing the advocates. Correct. If you call in. So it's Amazing Grace and Mental Health. Mental America. Okay, mental health America and definitely I'll provide this in the show notes. Um so they'll provide the advocate. So you're saying go through the advocate first.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yes. And so, you know, obviously wherever a person lives, but before you go to a lawyer, I would look in your local community and just see do we have some sort of nonprofit that will help me with my IEP or my 504? Because those resources exist. They they absolutely exist. There's definitely navigators in various parts of this the country where you can get that assistance. And you know, if your community doesn't have that at all, okay, then then look at a lawyer, right? I'm not telling you not to use the lawyer ever, but if you live in a community with an advocate, that's a better path.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Let's say they do get an advocate. What would be the next step then for people? I know every case is very individualized, but just using your knowledge, experience in what you do know, still being in the legal field. What would be like ways then to move the process forward?

SPEAKER_01 21:43

So take the advocate with you to the IEP meeting. Take them with you to the 504. Have them be prepared ahead of time for like what is the goal? Like you sit down with your 504, your IEP person, and you say, what do we need? You know, do we need this child to get ABA therapy? Do they need speech, OTPT? Is there ADHD being a problem? So they need more time on a test. Is this kid a trauma victim? And we need to figure out how to be trauma informed about their behavior. What is the goal? Figure out the goal before you walk in the door. And when you walk in the door, you ask for the goal. And then you'd be able to argue about why you need the goal. And you just kind of continue to sit there and ask for the goal.

Budget Excuses And FAPE Rights

SPEAKER_00 22:27

I think that's the plan. How would you respond then to a school? Let's say you go into a school and you say, okay, this is what we're dealing with. This child may be on the autism spectrum, for instance. They may need like social skills training and they may need just regular counseling with the school counselor at least once a week, if not twice. Depending on the situ on their emotional needs and s um and where they're at. And maybe they may need access to a sensory room. And perhaps, you know, and what if the school says, you know, there's only so much we can allot because of budget, or there's only so much. So, like, let's say ABA therapy and school says, well, we can't afford it.

Department Of Education Cuts Concerns

SPEAKER_01 23:12

I'm so sick of hearing that. While I absolutely understand the budgetary constraints that the public school system has, I get that. That does not negate the fact that these children are legally entitled to a fair, appropriate, free, appropriate public education. They are entitled to fate. And it is the job of the public school system to figure that out. And so we can't do that. We don't have the resources to do that. That is not a viable answer. That's not gonna work. That is also not your problem as the mother of this child. Your problem or their problem is to figure out how to give you what that little person needs. And at the end of the day, the I think the thing that makes me the most frustrated about this is that again, I'm sympathetic to a lack of resources. But this is the village. You know, what matters here? What matters here is this kid, this kid getting what they need. Because if this kid gets what they need, they're going to grow up to be a more successful adult. If we don't give them what they need, they might get into a whole list of problems that then society has to deal with later. So if we're if the goal of our system is to make productive citizens, we need to give a child every possible resource in order to be successful. So that is where we either need to advocate for the government to do a better job with funding special education and the needs of special needs kids, or we need to go to our local school boards and ask, is there more money that we can allocate just for this? Is there something that can be cut just for this? What can we do for these kids? Because their problems are going to get worse if we don't just deal with them head on.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Well, with the talks, though, in this political climate of cutting the Department of Education, how do you think that's going to affect special education and affect resources?

Opportunity Scholarships And Tough Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_01 25:12

I think it's going to be a disaster because I think it's going to lead to less money. I will say, and this is a very controversial topic, but I'll talk about what's going on in North Carolina right now. So our state legislature has authorized something called the opportunity scholarship. And if you have a child with an IEP, they will give you about$9,000 a year that you can use to go to private school. So you can completely shift your kid away from whatever their public school would be and use that$9,000 for private school tuition. You can also use it for homeschooling. So there are a ton of this is very controversial because obviously our public school advocates in North Carolina are saying, but that's why we don't have enough money because we didn't have enough money in the first place. And now you're taking the money that we have away and you're allowing these kids to use their money to go to private school. And this is only benefiting wealthy families. And I'm like, well, every private school is not going to be able to appropriately serve a child with autism. But there are some private schools that are going to do a really good job because they're smaller, their population size is less, and their teachers are going to be able to give an autistic child more attention than they would otherwise have. And they might be more willing to work with you and think outside the box simply because their population is lower. Not all of them. Some of them are not going to be able to do that. But this gets into where you, as mom, like I interviewed six schools before I figured out where I was sending my craniofacially different son because I didn't want him in an environment where he was getting picked on all day or people were making comments about his face because that is a distraction from learning. So some of the time you really do have to look around what are my resources? What are my choices? And I think at the end of the day, it starts at the top. When you meet a principal or a headmaster who's singing your song, like I knew the minute I met the headmaster at my kids' school, this was where he was going to go because I knew she was going to keep my kids safe. I could feel it in my body. And so there are options in some states. And, you know, I don't like the idea of gutting our public schools either, because a lot of children need those resources and a lot of families just that's what they need to do. But also, North Carolina's 48th in education right now. And I don't feel like any of us should just have to take what's available if we have another resource open to us. I mean, see what you can do, see what you can find. Every part of the state is different, every part of the country is different.

Building A Village For Parents

SPEAKER_00 27:52

So it's a lot of choices that people have to make. It seems like it's more complex than, you know, okay, we'll get a lawyer and the lawyer will advocate for us and put things in place for us if things don't go our way. Absolutely. It's a lot, it can be a lot. It can be really overwhelming. How do people even begin then to even start to wrap their arms around supporting someone going through it?

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I think that that is where we need to find the good parts of our village. And we have to believe that the good parts of our village exist. Um, it's kind of like I was telling you when I met my child, and I'm still really good friends with her. When I met the principal of the school my children currently attend, I was like, I can leave my kids with her. They're gonna be all right. And, you know, she's in charge and she's gonna make sure my boys are okay during the day. I've also had other friends who I, you know, after I puked in in the CVS parking lot, I called a really good friend of mine who's not an attorney. She just knows a lot about kids. She's a developmental specialist. And I called her and I was just crying, and she was like, You are a good mother. You are a really good mother. And she just kept, I just remember her saying that over and over again. You're fighting for your kid. I know you feel like you're losing, but your kid is gonna be fine because you're mom and you're gonna find a will and you're gonna find a way. And all of us need somebody to speak excellence into us. Everybody does. And so I think some of the time it's just a matter of thinking through who in my life can I call in those moments? Who's going to really be able to speak to me in a way where I can receive it? And if you don't know who that person is, they might be a good person to look for or try to make friends with. And that's also where therapy can be really helpful too. Like I'm always happy as a therapist to support a special needs parent because I, at the end of the day, I think our special needs mothers are and fathers are amazing human beings. They're absolutely amazing human beings. And the one thing that they are driven by firmly is love.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

You know, I've seen that, you know, with even in my family, right? When I was going through it when I was younger, you know, and what my parents went through with the school system, you know, with me and, you know, being a therapist myself, where I have talked to parents of those with special needs, they definitely are driven by a whole lot of love, determination. Because everybody at the end of the day, you know, what did they want to see their kid be? Happy, successful, and set, right? Yes, ultimately, right? That's what the goal, you know, for I think a lot of parents. Now, I'm not a parent or anything, but just knowing from having parents that, you know, that was their goal. That's what they think they they always wanted for me. And then also talking to other parents, you know, you realize that at the end of the day, we all want the same things. Everybody all wants the same things, happiness, success, and to feel good and comfortable, you know.

Celebrating Wins Other People Miss

SPEAKER_01 30:52

But I was talking to a friend recently about a quote, and that quote was a mother is only as happy as her saddest child. And the therapist in me wants to say, no, no, have some boundaries. But also, that's so true. You know, I I couldn't work. And I I tell my kids principal this all the time. I couldn't go to work every day and feel comfortable and safe if I was worried about my children. You know, if I was worried that they were getting bullied or beat up or that someone was mistreating them all day, I wouldn't be able to handle it. Because you're only a mother's only as happy as her saddest child. And I no one wants to see their children be sad. You know, all of us want to see our children thrive and do well. And it's heartbreaking when they're not. But I also think on the same thing of having someone lift you up when you feel small, you need somebody to help you celebrate. You know, there is there's a mom in my community who has an autistic son who is nonverbal or well, excuse me, he's been nonverbal. He's five, and he started singing the other day, and he actually memorized like the happy birthday song. And, you know, it's a it's literally like a miracle to watch this little boy who wasn't able to communicate at all sing a song. That is huge progress. And like I'm so happy for her, and she's overjoyed, you know. And I heard someone say, well, you know, it wasn't perfect. It doesn't matter. That is a huge, huge accomplishment. And you need somebody to celebrate that with you and to be able to sit there and say, that is a win, and let us celebrate that win because it deserves to be celebrated.

Writing Tumbleweeds To Feel Free

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Absolutely. You know, and I feel like, you know what, like these things that a lot of people will just take for granted, you know what? They don't understand it until they've actually spoken to a family of someone with special needs. Yes. Because it hits so much more different for them. It sure does. Now, your book, Tumbleweeds. Now, I know we talked a lot about like the IEP and um special ed, uh, the IEP meetings, 504 meetings, advocates. But your book, what was it like for you to write this book?

SPEAKER_01 33:07

So one of my supports in my village is an older woman named Ann Benfield. And I love Anne because she controls all the smart start money for our early childhood education in my community. And she wrote one of the forwards for my book, and one of the sentences that she said is Paula carried this around for a really long time. And this is something she needed to get out. And that is the truth. All the stuff that I feel like I went through sat in my body for a long time and I needed to get it out. And I don't think that this book was something that I like, it's not like I wanted to give it to the world, but I literally could not give it to the world. And I don't really care what happens to it now. I don't care whether it becomes a New York Times bestseller or if America hates it. I genuinely don't care what happens to this book. I care that this book is out of me. It's literally out of my body and into something that I can see on a shelf. And I just hope that the people who read it feel hope and empowered so that my children have all turned out really, really well. And I have a lot of faith that most children can turn out really, really well if we give them love and we give them the building blocks of what they need to be successful. And so I just hope that my book makes other mothers in whatever situation they're in, feel like they're not alone.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

This must have also brought up a lot of memories, a lot of emotions, a lot of tears, I take it. Yep. When you were writing this and writing about the IEP and how you felt were made to feel and the work you had to do to advocate so that your son was able to get the proper services so that he could thrive. Correct. I can only imagine this is a memory that is just stamped in like a tattoo. Absolutely.

The Trauma Schools Leave Behind

SPEAKER_01 35:03

Absolutely. And, you know, for better or worse, there are people who really helped me with my kids along the way. And those are people that I would give a kidney to if they needed one and I could give it. Like there are people in my life who were the angels who helped me with my kids. But there are also the people who were awful and who made me cry and who basically said, we don't care what your child's doctor said. They don't work for the school system. And those are the people that I don't have any use for. And there are special education parents all across America who know exactly what I'm talking about because they remember that person. And special needs mothers don't forget that. You won't you, as the person who says that kind of stuff to them, you won't remember it because the next day you won't think about them again. You'll go on, there'll be some other kid. But when you make a mother feel like you don't care about her kid or that her kid's not important to you, when you neglect or abuse or hurt something that we gave birth to, we will never forget you.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Ever. You know, it reminds me of my mom, you know, and to this day, she still remembers when the middle school told her when I was in sixth grade that I would not make it to eighth grade. Them fighting words right there. Yeah, she will not make it to eighth grade if she gets there at all. And then she would never graduate high school. And they told my mom they wanted to send me to a special school. And to this day, sometimes my mom will still tear up about it. Yes. And um, you know, and I have to reminder, I said, mom, don't look at who's getting the last laugh now. Uh right. Right. Because of all the stuff I went right off and did, you know, they told me that I would be relegated. Well, guess what? I outtopped a lot of them. And all those people who said that I would never be anything, well, they're made to eat their words to the full.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

That's exactly right. And I empathize with your mom so much because that is a traumatic memory. Having somebody tell you your child's never gonna be able to go to eighth grade, that is a terrible thing to tell a parent, especially when you don't. I mean, obviously your IQ is very high. You graduated from law school. Like, you are not an unintelligent person. Like telling someone something like that. But you know, I think I read something where Calbert Einstein's mother was told the same thing. She was told that he would never be able to learn, he would never be able to do anything in school. So she just kept him home and educated him herself. And look what he went, he was a man that went out to change the world. I mean. And that's because a special needs mother will do what she has to do. And I think some of the time, like, we feel like shameful or like we're a troublemaker. You know what? You have to not care at all. Like, there is nothing more important than your kids. Like, there's literally nothing more important than the job of being and the privilege of being their parent. And nobody is ever going to make me feel bad about doing what I need to do for my son.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

You know, and the people who are telling you that you're a troublemaker, these are people that are uncomfortable with the fact that changes have to be made because these people got so used to the status quo. And when anything challenges the status quo, what does that do? Cause tension, right? It causes stir. But if the status quo doesn't get challenged, no changes ever happen, right? Right. Like we say, if it doesn't challenge you, it doesn't change you. So that's, you know, this is where, you know, and for people listening, you know, if you're going through this with your own kids right now, or you're going through it with your school district, you know, just remember one thing. You you aren't creating the changes that are gonna impact everyone for the better. Absolutely. And people don't like change, especially those that got comfortable with their positions in power, especially those that got comfortable with having a certain image and having a certain way things are done. They just don't people don't like the the tension. They sure don't.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

They don't. But at the same time, you know, I think this is a big picture question. Again, what is the most important thing? Well, the most important thing is that little person. And that little person, and I think this about every kid, not just my kids. I think every I think our children deserve the very best that we can give them. And I don't say that like pageant girl type statement. Like, I literally think that all of our children deserve the tools that they need to be able to be successful. That is how we make the world better.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Absolutely. Absolutely. I feel like, you know what? It takes somebody who doesn't give up. That's right. It takes somebody who is going to be persistent, consistent, you know, have that, you know, have their corner, be on their corner the whole time, you know, and be there. And I think that's what where real change is made in this one. So, you know, do you now like you said that, you know, the the law hiring a lawyer is last step. Um, do you think you ever would like to do more special ed law stuff or legislation or legislation, yes.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Special education law, no. Because I think it's the same reason I can't do family law custody. I will never sleep. I will be up at 3 a.m. and I will be furious, and I think I will relive a lot of the trauma that we've talked about today. And that's just not gonna be good for me. And I can do a lot of other things to be helpful, so I'm not going to do that. But I also want to add that to the lawyers that I see, particularly the ones who do represent special needs parents and don't just represent the district, those are some really good folks. And I love, I mean, I have had to tell a few people, all right, this isn't working. We're gonna have to lawyer up. And I I respect those lawyers who I give those referrals to.

Early Intervention And Pre-K Funding

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Those are good people. That's amazing. I mean, I can only imagine how they light you up in some ways inside when you see them do their work and see them go after it. Knowing what you know now, though, about special ed law, you know, I mean, I do remember some of the stuff, you know, certain cases and things. And I do remember, you know, certain statutes and provisions. Where do you see there could be room for growth in terms of legislation with it?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

I think it just goes back to, again, we've got to be focused on what is in the best interest of a kid and starting it as early as humanly possible. You know, the earlier we can have an early intervention, the earlier we can prevent a problem, the better. We don't spend money on things like that when we really should. And we need to really pour money into our early childhood education, into our preschoolers. I love states like Georgia that have been able to use the Georgia education lottery to ensure that every child gets pre-K for free. Pre-K in Georgia is like kindergarten. It's just free. And I love states that are able to do that. North Carolina doesn't do that. The only way you get preschool education here is if your parents pay for it or if you're indigent and you can qualify for smart start or head start. But most people in our area, there's people who struggle to be able, they want to afford a preschool education, but they just can't. And so I really think pouring funds into things like that is good. And I know, you know, politicians are then going to say, well, what do you want us to cut? I don't know. You tell me. Where do you're all they're the ones talking about waste all the time. Where are we wasting money where we could cut it and pour it back into education, into our little people?

Helping A Child Thrive Socially

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Yeah, definitely. Starting young makes all the difference, right? And having that foundation is gonna be so important. So as it stands today with your son, how have you seen him thrive in the school he's at?

SPEAKER_01 43:11

He's doing amazing. They let me come in when he was a second grader because people were beginning to ask about his face, and none of the children were asking about his face in a rude manner. Like they weren't being jerks, they were just curious seven-year-olds. Okay. And so the school let me come in and I read Prattly's baby book to his class. And I explained to them what Clef Palette was and how it made him different. And I told them things like, you know, he's had braces since he was three. When you guys go through needing braces in middle school, he can tell you all about what to do because he's had experience with this. If any of you ever need to have surgery, he knows what to tell you to do because he's had it. You know, so I made it into a strength. And ever since then, it's just something his classmates know. And because he's in a small school, he's pretty much been with the same 22 children since he was in kindergarten. His school has very little turnover. So it's not like every year he's getting introduced to a new class of kids. So I think the environment that he's in and the fact that I did get him early intervention, I did get him that speech therapy by God. I got it for him. The fact that he got all of that has made his literacy, it's improved his literacy, but it's made his speaking ability normal. And so he's avoiding a lot of the problems that a lot of children with cleft palate have because I threw a fit and got him his speech therapy.

Where To Find Paula And Closing

SPEAKER_00 44:36

So, and I'm glad to hear that he's doing amazing. I'm glad to hear that, you know, he's thriving where he's at. Things have gotten better. He's gotten some speech therapy, he's able to connect with his classmates. They understand him and they understand his strengths. And you know, he has supportive teachers, it seems, and a supportive environment. Everything that is essential for a student to thrive. Well, Paula, I want to thank you so much for being here. Where can people get a hold of you? Like where can people find you if they want to reach out to you and ask you questions? And also, can you tell us where we can find your book?

SPEAKER_01 45:15

So my book is going to be available on Amazon.com. Okay. So you should be able to just search under my name, Paula J Yoast, or for the book Tumbleweeds, and hopefully it will come right up. Also, you can find me on Instagram or Facebook at Paula Joast Author, and you can send me a private message there. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Thank you very much, Paula, for being here. And this wraps today's episode. Remember to like, subscribe, and share with your family and friends. Thank you. Thank you.