Scaling Success: Insights from Mark Niemiec on Leadership and Revenue Growth

Welcome to the Dear Future CRO Podcast powered by GrowthQ. In this episode, we sit down with Mark Niemiec, Chief Revenue Officer at Salesloft, who dives deep into the challenges and strategies of aligning sales goals with customer needs. Mark shares invaluable insights from his journey—from his philosophy background to leading sales at a tech forefront, emphasizing the critical role of understanding customer adoption and the importance of values in sales success. We also explore the essential blend of leadership, technology, and project management skills needed for a CRO. For anyone aiming to elevate their sales career or lead a revenue team, this episode is packed with guidance and inspiration straight from the trenches of sales leadership. Don't miss out on these game-changing strategies!

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Transcript

0:40

Welcome a growth Q community. I'm so excited for this episode. Thank you for taking this time with us. As you know, our mission at growth Q is to close the wage and leadership gaps for sales professionals. And how we do that is sharing stories of incredible sales professionals across the industry. And I get to have this time with one of my dear friends, from our times in New York city, Mr. Chief revenue officer of sales loft. Mark, you have to give us the skinny on your background because I'm looking at it. I'm like, okay, how does this all make sense? You've been in sales across various different companies and industries from incredible brands from ADP to Salesforce to Cisco, now sales loft. But you were also at the Associated Press. Like you've got to give us a skinny on your incredible career journey. First off, thanks for joining us. And then tell me the story from the start. Yeah. Well, great to see you, Esther. Thanks for inviting me to be here. And I'm super happy to share my story and anything that folks get out of this story from their own, career through line. I'd be super happy if anybody gets any, any value out of hearing my story. You know, I graduated college in late nineties and I had a, got a degree in philosophy, which was a whole lot of fun to me. I'm not super applicable in the work world as my father reminded me throughout four years of college. But decided at the end of four years of college that I needed to go get some real foundational skills. and I had a friend and mentor who was at ADP and, and his coaching guidance to me was, if you want to get a good foundation and understanding, the thing that makes the world work, which is sales, ADP is a great place to go. And so I spent a year there a little more than a year working with some legendary leaders and, folks who are in really, really senior roles today in different businesses from, from technology to human capital and some other things. But I learned a lot there I spent a year working on, you know, in their small business division, learning the foundational skills that all salespeople rely on, how to empathize with your customer, how to prospect effectively, how to close and things like that. and then I went to a technology firm from there and wanted to get more into, into tech. It was 99, 2000 timeframe, a lot of excitement there. but after a few years of doing that, I realized I was really. really struggling to understand. Well, how does the other side of the table think about these interactions with salespeople? and I thought to myself, well, if I could go be a customer for a minute, I might actually be able to understand how they view us as salespeople and what would be valuable to them, from a, from a salesperson's point of view. and so that's what I did. I networked my way into a job. Working for the Associated Press, not a traditional step for a person with my career path at all. But I decided to take some time out of the selling part of my career and go learn what it is to be a customer. Which the lessons I learned in that job have been foundational to me for many years. I still go back to those lessons often. And I'm super happy to share some of those experiences. But it was a great chance for me to step out of the sales role. And into the buyer's role and really understand how big companies make complex decisions. And who were your, who was selling to you? Like what, who was selling to you and what were you buying? Yeah. So AP went through a digital transformation before vendors were selling digital transformations. really quick history. AP used to just distribute everything from a satellite. And so they would send information up in a satellite and would come down into the newsrooms around the world. And, the world is moving in a direction where they wanted, customers wanted to be a two way communication, which would require a total shift in the network and how they did those things. And so they were buying a ton of Cisco technology. They were looking to take their content from sort of a big database into more of a searchable A dynamic database where customers or members could say, Hey, I may I want more information on this. I want this story or I want these photographs in a satellite distribution business. That doesn't work. It's all one way. You just you get what they sent. And AP was going through a massive transformation to become more of a digital forward digital first company. So we were getting pitched by the Cisco's of the world fast search and transfer, which is no longer. And a whole bunch of companies that, that helped us move into a more dynamic database driven world so we could serve our customers and members in a new and different way. And we were going through all the evaluations of what are our business outcomes that we're looking for? What are the constraints regarding costs? What are our capabilities to be able to consume and deploy this technology? How do we make sure we're successful? And so I think of, there's a bunch of books in front of me, but one of them is jolt and or the jolt effect. And, you know, the things that, you know, Customer struggle with today. Oftentimes is, you know, I know this technology is great. I know other people have been able to use it successfully, but I don't know if we can do that. And so it's really more, oftentimes about how the company that you're pitching to. can actually consume what you're, what you're sharing. The assumption is your technology works great. I've worked a great brands, great companies who have amazing products. Customers aren't always sure they can take advantage of those products. And that's exactly what we went through 20 years ago when I was at AP. And the companies that working with had amazing technology. But could we consume it and use it and deploy it and get the value that we hoped? That was a question. And the companies that we ended up working with were ones that were able to help us understand our path to success. Even though the technology was proven, it was really more about how do we make it work in our environment, with our culture, with the constraints that we have to live within. Such an important message and thing to remember as a sales professional, because you may have great technology, your widget may work, for many other customers, but for this specific one you're speaking to, are, is your technology going to be one that they can actually adopt and get the benefit out of? Yeah, that's a really good point.. Hey, we have great things. Let me show you a demo. And I think, we're all at a point in the sales business where people could do great demos. Products are expected to work. But it's really more about the complexity of deployment and change management and adoption and usage, and long term sustained success that companies are going to want to invest in. So I think the idea that your product works and is good and is strong is table stakes. What's going to differentiate you is being able to help the customer understand how they're actually going to get value in their own environment, which is a much more complex question, because there's variables well outside of your control as a salesperson. Yeah. Okay. So you went in, you started out in sales. You then transitioned over to become a customer. How did that change in your sales career? How did that change your sales career perspective now going on to cisco and then to salesforce and then to where you are today. Yeah. A few things I learned, one of them is the salesperson is super important. The, a good salesperson who is, who's thoughtful, who takes time to prepare, who represents their company in a really thoughtful way is super important. But the more important thing is that the company that you're representing, has the values and the products and the services that company, that's the buyer actually needs. And so those two things, when they come together, you see magic, you see, in some cases, great salespeople work for companies that may not, you know, be as great as a salesperson and you end up with some lopsided results. vice versa. You see some really great companies who have sales people that can't live up to their the bar they've set. And again, you see some lopsided results. Success is sort of, you know, maybe a little bit variable. But when you see consistent success, which usually a really strong salesperson with a good company that has the right values and products that the customer in the market needs. So I think those two things are sort of a powerful cocktail. That if you don't have either of them, or if you're missing one of them, it can be really challenging to get the results the company is looking for. The other thing that I learned is, good deals are durable. they'll withstand some turbulence. And so I think a lot of times, salespeople are either made to feel or they decide to feel that their deals are tenuous. Or they may not be as strong as they'd hoped them to be. What I can tell you from my time as a customer is good deals are good. They are durable and they will stand the tension of a negotiation, whether it's legal or product or pricing. Those things are all part of the game. They're part of the business. But once you've sold the business value, once the company has decided to work with your organization, they will withstand a whole lot of turbulence and they won't be unhooked,, over a,, difficult negotiation. or misalignment on pricing or some legal terms. That's not to say those things won't unhook a deal, but there's oftentimes a whole lot of turbulence a good deal can withstand. And salespeople should be confident in the deals they build, when they have the right champion and the right coaches that are guiding them. Oftentimes, or most times, they'll be able to withstand a little bit of turbulence. That can sometimes happen in the deal cycle now, are there ways, are there ways that you have seen or a story that you've experienced where you had to really tease that out to get to that? Like, get through some of those turbulence before you get to the right to the end of the deal? Yeah, happens all the time. and, the things that are immutable, truths that, that exist. First of all, there's no shortcuts in sales. I know, you know, in good economic times or a ERP environment, it feels like maybe. Maybe there are some shortcuts, but in reality there are no shortcuts. And so building really strong business value cases is, is essential. Understanding the through line between the product that you're providing, the outcome that customers are going to get, and how they're actually going to value it, and doing that with real rigor. That never goes out of style and it will always help you get your deal done. Also aligning with the culture, and the champions, the coaches inside the company. understanding who your customers are, understanding the pace at which they're ready to adopt and accept change. Understanding, what the political, org chart looks like, not just the actual org chart and where influence lies and what the language is, language that's important to those customers in terms of how you show up and how you explain your products. Those things can help you get to the right conversations. Those right conversations will oftentimes, frame how the company thinks about you. and how the company thinks about your company. And you want to be aligned with the pace of the culture of the company. You want to be aligned with the values of that company and make sure that you're representing your own company's best capabilities. And that you're not, overrepresenting or, puffing some of the capabilities that your company might offer. Those things always get found out. So I think there's no secret to it. Some of the best sales people I've ever seen look and feel more like CPAs, than what you might traditionally expect a salesperson to look like. There's a post that was out on, on Twitter X last night and it said enterprise B2B sales is 20 percent sales and 80 percent project management. And, there's a whole lot of folks that are commenting on that post and I certainly agree. That is certainly, I think one of the biggest parts. That I've seen, our teams be successful with is where they're able to effectively project manage a deal, and project manage the sales cycle. It's less about selling. It's more about project management because it's assumed that your product meets the needs that the company has. And now once you know the product meets the need, how do we work backwards from your value and what you're going to receive out of it, where the customer is going to receive out of it, walking all the way back to deals done, all the way back to what has to happen to make it, right? It's a workflow. That workflow is very consistent. And when we have folks who are able to follow those processes, that's why I say some of the best salespeople I've ever seen look and feel more like a CPA or a program manager, because it's all about following that process and that workflow in a way that gives the customer what they expect. And that shows the best of your company's capabilities. I mean, when those two things are lined up, I think you have some real magic there. Yeah, I love it. Okay. Let's transition to talk about what your day to day. Is like, so you're now, just a few into your new role as chief revenue officer of sales loft. What is that day to day? Like, there are so many that are watching this that are currently in their first line manager role, or maybe in their. second line manager role, for example, and thinking about what that's gonna be like getting into a role such as this. So maybe talk about what you do every day and how that compares to your previous leadership roles. Well, first of all, I'll tell you, I'm six weeks into this job officially, and no two days are the same, except, the days that have been the same for the past 25 years for me, which is the last couple days in the quarter. In every company, in every business, in every industry, those last few days of the quarter are always the same. Hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. Yep, exactly. For, every job I've had. But outside of that, no two days are the same. And so much of what we do, is around, the art and science of selling and growing revenue. Which is partly about, you know, what's the financial plan and how do we make sure that we're, able to achieve and meet that plan. Some folks might say, Hey, that feels like spreadsheet work. And in some cases it is. And then it goes into the, the component of how do we get the right people and manage them in the right way? And inspire them the right way, educate, motivate them the right way, that's going to get them to achieve the outcomes of the goals that our financial plan requires of us. and so there's really a mix of the two sides here. And you know, I think you had Kelly Kay on this program a few months or maybe a year ago. And one of the things that I think I remember him saying was, you know, managing in a modern way, is more about looking at data and understanding metrics from that data. Than it is about, you know, taking folks out for dinners and things like that. And this role is very much about understanding what that data looks like and what the information is that you should be getting out of that data. Because that's where you get the understanding of how are my product working in the market? How are my teams, how effective are they at communicating the value of those products? How is our marketing working to help our prospects and customers understand what we do and how we can help them solve their most important problems? A lot of those things are, at this level, are About data and math and understanding what the trends are that are happening, both with our own data as well as the data that we get from the market. And then a lot of it is about, you know, what is the future of our best seller? What does that future look like? How do we make sure that we are hiring them that we're retaining and growing them? How do we make sure that we have the role evolving in a way that's going to keep our best sellers challenged? How do we enable them to make sure that we're delivering those skills and experiences that they need, to meet the challenge of today and eventually tomorrow? And so plenty of my job is about working with enablement. Plenty of it's about working with finance. Lots of it is about work with marketing and product to understand what we're doing and how do we communicate that. And then the most sort of fun part of my job is spending time with customers. so much. Every time you get a chance to listen to a customer, tell you what's important to them or why they may have made a person decision with your company or with a competitor. It's a chance to learn about what they value and how we can listen more deeply to them and understand. How we should be positioning ourselves going forward because the end of the day, our success is a byproduct of our customer success. There's no scenario in which we are successful. Before our customers are successful. And so in order to listen, in order, listening to them is the most important way or the most. Powerful way that we can evolve our approach, to make sure we're meeting the needs of the market and hopefully staying one step ahead of the game. I love that. I love that. It's so very true. It's so very true. You know, I look across your career now. We spent a short stints of our careers together. You being in a decade at Cisco, mine 16 at the same company. But, you know, if you look back at your entire career, is there one or even two career pivotal moments that you feel like were pivotal to your success? Yeah. Stretching moments for your career. Yeah. Well, there's a couple of important moments, many, but maybe a couple that come to mind that folks may get some value out of. One of them. I was a frontline leader at Cisco where you and I spend some time together. And I learned the power of language, both in terms of how we talk to ourselves, but also how we talk to one another about our business and about our customers. And I've learned this lesson in many different iterations over the, over my career. But one of them is to value every customer relationship. Customers can be demanding. They can make decisions that maybe don't align with our expectations or, what our hopes and dreams were. But listening to them and understanding why they did what they did is super important. When customers are demanding and they're giving you a hard time, remember they can be demanding of somebody else. As well, they could be demanding of your competition, just as they're demanding of you. And so while they may be challenging, and they're challenging you, uh, remember they could be challenging somebody else and demanding a lot of them as well. And if they're demanding a lot of you, that means there's value in the relationship and maybe you need to understand, a little bit better how to work with that company or that customer, to make sure that you're in a position to help them achieve their objectives. And the way you talk about that customer inside your company is super important. I've joined many organizations or been part of many teams where, where folks didn't maybe speak or think about their customer in a great way. And then I would talk to other folks in the organization about working with that customer. And what I would find is, how the salesperson talked about that company or that customer. was oftentimes the perception there's other teams had of that company or customer. And so, the way that works is in these organizations, the businesses that we're mostly in is their matrix. All of our resources have a chance to basically pick and choose where they want to spend their time. The salespeople, the account executive owns that relationship, but the specialists that they need to work with, the engineers need to work with, they kind of have an option to choose where they're going to spend their time and what their managers are asking them to do is spend your time on the most valuable opportunities. And so when a salesperson talks about their customer in a way that is aspirational, that is really clearly, there's a, where there's a clear vision where there's an understanding that customer has about how we could work together. You've got a really good chance of making that customer the most important opportunity in everybody's mind. And that is, I think, one of the best things a salesperson can do is make their deal, make their customer everybody's most important deal. And I learned that at every company I've been at, I've seen how that game works. I mean, I've seen what happens when a salesperson is expert. at making that customer the most important customer to that company. And sometimes it's the case, sometimes it's not. But when that salesperson sets that as the true North, as the aspiration for them, they get the best resources and they get the best outcome with their customer. That's possible. So I think it's important to think about how you. Think about your customer, the language you use and how you talk to your teams about them, because that's going to be the vision or the frame from which they approach those interactions with that customer. Yeah. Is there a scenario that you remember having where you've seen that work well or work poorly? I've seen it work extremely well. at our old employer, I saw a team, I saw a team present an opportunity that. Standardly may have looked like any other opportunity, to sell. It was probably a data center, but the way this team positioned the future of how our two companies work together and what it would mean for us to win this data center became a rallying cry internally for everybody in the product organization, everybody in the specialist organization, many of our executives to get behind the sales team and make sure that was a success. Project was one with as much vigor and import as it was available. And we absolutely knocked out the competition. Customer felt so valued because of how our organization lined up our resources, our product teams, we were deeply listening to them. We understood what it meant to have them on stage at some of our events. We understood what it meant to their brands personally and professionally, and we understand what it meant for them to have a successful deployment. as they looked at that as a competitive differentiator between them and some of the, some of their fiercest competitors. And so the customer gave our salesperson some ideas on how they should think about this opportunity. And our salespeople in turn, use that to create a vision for the wind themes that we would deliver inside of, inside of our company and lined up everybody behind it. And it was, I remember the deal to this day, it was pretty big one. and I think that was a, an amazing way that, that salesperson used, his vision and his ability to align resources internally, in turn to make that customer feel like the absolute most important customer, that we had ever had. And I think in many ways it became that for us. And today I still speak to that customer. It's 15 years on and, they still remember that interaction. Beautiful, beautiful. And, you know, if you think of that story and accomplishing that win, so many careers are changed. So many, there's so much, you know, revenue made or dollars saved. And, you know, the beauty of what salespeople can bring to the table is really telling that story, like you mentioned, right? Not only to a customer, but also internally to an organization to get everybody behind that same story. Like win win scenario, you know? Yeah. I love that. I think that's the power of a really great salesperson. Amen. Amen. So, you know, you're now a few weeks in and you're still within your first 90 days. Can you talk about what, like, and maybe for you, cause you're still within it. What is your 90 day plan look like? Like, what are the things you've got to accomplish that you had to in your first 30 that you've got to get done within your, you know, for 60. And then what you've planned to make sure you hit in your first 90 days and roll. For sure. I'm still in the first 90. And in all these roles, you know, the first and most important thing is to deliver what you say you're going to deliver. and you certainly want to set expectations for what's possible, but once you commit to, here's the number we're going to deliver to the business, that is your stock and trade. And you need to make sure you execute on that. And I think we're in a really good spot as a company to meet the expectations, our investors and the market has of us. So I'm working from a good foundation. So. Assuming that we're going to meet those expectations, in different roles, it's the first 90 days are, you know, they're very different. I think for me, the most important thing that I'm doing is listening is going around to all of our employees and our teams and our leaders. And our customers and making sure that I listen and understand what's important to them. And that's helping me inform what the next 90 days is going to look like. The role that I was asked to come in and, and play was one that's going to help us build scale, into our enterprise and our commercial business. That's going to help us meet the needs and expectations of our investors in the market, in what is a pretty competitive space. And so there's a excellent foundation here. There's wonderfully talented salespeople and leaders. but one of the things that we need to do is figure out how are we going to scale this business and deliver repeatable, consistent and durable results. And so the first thing I need to do is listen to what's working today, understand what our customers want to need from us, and start to shape the future of the next. the next 90 days in the next 90 days after that, and figure out what our plan is going to be over the next couple of years, I have some good ideas of it, but my first and foremost responsibility right now is to listen to our employees and our customers. Once that's through, we'll be in a position to deploy a plan that's going to help our salespeople deliver more consistent results, going to help them help their customers more effectively and deploy our resources in a way that is going to help our, our business translate the results that we invest so much time and effort in doing for our product team. And the 90 day plan at this level is a lot more about listening. And deploying a plan once we've once I've understood, the current environment, the culture and also the market opportunity at different levels. The first 90 days looks a little bit different. certainly, I think the for a salesperson, the most important thing that you can do is learn and understand your product, know what your product does and how it's different from, from your competition and then understand your customers. What are the markets you play in? What are unique and differentiated value props? What's the culture of the companies you're selling into? and how do you align their expectations with your capabilities? And that takes a whole lot of effort. There's a lot of listening in there, but there's a lot of reading and there's a lot of learning from your peers and learning from those who came before you. but again, the most important thing is to deliver on your expectations. These are performance based roles. it's the only role I think in any corporate environment where, there's a scoreboard, that, that determines your success or lack thereof. and so the most important thing you can do is deliver on your on the expectations that you've set for yourself and the business may have for you. So true. So true. Now, you know, if you look across your career, have there been, has there been a difference in how you upskill or continue to stay relevant on your, on how you do what you do today, right? Like, so where do you go today? What are you listening to? What are you reading? What do you go to, to continually develop today versus previously in your previous roles? Well, as a recovering philosophy major, the one thing I like to do is read. and so I am happy to read all kinds of books. One thing I I'm also very happy to do is stop reading. So I think we can get ourselves into a place where. We buy a book, we get a recommendation and we feel like, we got to, we got to read this one through. many books I read are what I call derivative works. There are pieces that are repackaged versions of things that have maybe come out beforehand. And so, you know, those books, maybe there's a negative two in there for you, but ultimately I probably dispense with those books pretty quickly because they take time to read and not going to give you a whole lot. I do, there's tons of great podcasts out there. But, and I'll certainly share some of the ones I listened to. Some are more for fun. And some are more, more educational, but I tend to vacillate between or work between a couple of different types of material. there's personal development books, professional development books I look at. There are, there's technical books I read on how to do the job better, how to be a better CRO or a salesperson or sales leader. And then, there's books I read on helping me to become a better communicator. So I will, oftentimes every couple of months, read another Hemingway book. Somebody gave me some advice years ago that if you want to be a good writer, Read Hemingway and I've never found any advice to be as true as that is. Wow. While you're reading it, you will oftentimes find yourself writing better and more clearly. even while you're, even a few chapters in, when you go back to a Hemingway book. So that's some advice I got that I think is indispensable. I love it. So Hemingway for great communication. Talk to me about what you read to be more technically in tuned as a revenue leader. Yeah, I think, you know, there's a book that's been floating around recently. John McMahon wrote it. It's become a bit of a Bible for folks. The qualified sales leader I think is excellent. so many people are talking about it and it's been around for a bunch of years, but I think that's one that everybody should read and come back to over and over again. It does really a great job of breaking down the job of a sales leader and he does a great job of telling a story with it to make it super consumable and easy to read. Yeah. That's one that I've been reading and I've come back to it a second time. I think it's great. That's a bit of a technical book on how to become a better leader in this kind of role. And then, you know, there's a book I'm also reading again for the second time called The Man Who Ran Washington about James Baker, the most powerful politician who was never really a politician. And he served, I think, three different White Houses and in Congress and a couple of different campaigns. In that business, it's rare for somebody to go from a campaign leader into the administration, and he did it, I think, twice, and he's oftentimes regarded as the most powerful man in Washington, which is a great book around, not so much politics and political, you know, situations, which certainly it's part of that, but it's more about how to influence and how to understand and empathize and how to connect. And I think that's a great book for folks to look at and, uh, and understand how James Baker, you know, sort of Ran his life and you know, some of his greatest successes and also talks about some of his failures there as well. So it's a good one. Love that. I love that. I tell you one, I'm reading right now, I just. I read on my way here as we're recording this right now. I'm sitting in London and, it is the motive by Patrick Linceoni and talks on, yeah, you remember that book? Okay. My first time reading it, loved it. And I think the powerful piece of any takeaway from that book was understanding what type of. of leader you currently are and getting a good check to what type of leader you are, whether you're reward driven or responsibility driven. And like, you know, once in a while you need that quick reminder to look at how you're doing things or how you're building your teams or what, where you're spending your time as a leader to know what type of leader you are. So that one was just a really good one for me. Did you get the same out of that? Do you remember that book? Or yeah, it's funny. The founders of sales loft actually, Kyle Porter, was, is a big fan of Patrick's and he did a lot of work with the company, before the current leadership team got here. But, many of the lessons that he, taught in the five dysfunctional team are things that are sort of deeply, built into the ethos here. around how we make sure that those things don't, don't hold us back. And, so yeah, we're big fans and, there's a ton of great things to get out of, his work, but certainly understanding what motivates you is a huge part of it. I think there's a lot of good things that come out of that work. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This next question I love, but I'm also going to throw an addition in this one. So if you look back at your entire career, the companies you've been at both on the customer side as well as the sales side, what is the one thing you're most proud of? But also what's an area where you have either made a mistake or something you're not as proud of, but you learned a ton from? I when I think about my life and my job and, I hope to ultimately leave the world in a better place than I found it. I hope to be able to have that impact at some point. And when I think about, how do I do that on a day to day or in a sort of a small way, that I found a ton of satisfaction out of, helping people who didn't think, they could achieve things, helping them achieve those things. I got a call one time from a guy who, bought a house, I don't know, 15 or so years before he called me, and said, look, you know, we bought this house. We didn't think we'd ever be able to pay for it. You we didn't know what we were doing. My wife and I were young, after the deal that, we just closed, I paid off my house. The guy was crying on the phone, and like, you know, that was to me the most satisfying thing I'd ever heard. And so, you know, he didn't have expectations in his life that he would ever be in that situation. He thought, you know, we'll pay and refinance this mortgage and forever. And, you know, halfway through the mortgage, he was able to pay it off. That's one example of something that to me is so satisfying, but in general, it's helping people achieve things they didn't think were possible. And if you want extraordinary results, you've got to be willing to do extraordinary things. Um, there's no shortcuts in this business or any business for that matter. And so I found a lot of satisfaction working with people in teams that are willing to do extraordinary things, that are willing to, you know, work the extra hours, put the extra time in, challenge themselves and be challenged in ways that they may not always be comfortable, but that ultimately help you get great results. I think about it like this sometimes. You know, making mistakes internally inside the team is free. We learn, we get coaching, we get feedback, we get better. I'm making those mistakes in the market in front of customers. Cost you deals. It costs you money. It costs your company. it also costs your team time. And being able and willing to challenge internally and to work in service of getting the best result and outcome and positioning ourselves to be what our customers are looking for, I think is super important. And the teams I've worked with that have been most satisfying. are ones who've taken and embrace that approach, to being better and better in front of their customers. So that to me, I think I find super satisfying. You know, in terms of things that, you know, I get right and sometimes don't get right, you know, there's plenty in both categories, probably, you know, more in the, category of things. I don't get right, but every day I try to get a little better. You know, I, I think ultimately, the things that are challenging or that can be, that maybe were things that didn't work out certain, you know, the way that we might have hoped is when we have misaligned or miss, misunderstood expectations of one another. Whether that is, internally in teams, or with our customers. And so I think of plenty of situations where, you know, I thought, or we thought we were having one conversation, with a customer or an employee. And it turns out that we were having a different conversation. So checking for that understanding, checking to make sure that we're listening to each other and that, we are guided by the similar or same principles, I think is super important. I, the experience I recently had. force was a wonderful comp people. I worked with the years. And but it was a v company. And I didn't the power of those values there. But over my time, values were, were reas To learn more from us. They wanted to do business with us because of our values. And those are things that are oftentimes, they're not quite immutable, but they don't change all that often. They do evolve and they do change, but not, they don't change every year. They don't change. Certainly, throughout a year. And living with our values I think is really important, and I learned to take that with me into this new role here, and it's been an amazing experience. But I think where things go sideways sometimes is when folks may not be connected to the values of who they are and why they do what they do. And when you can get, when you get really clear on that, I think you can have, you can have a great set of experiences, with your employees, with your customers, with your colleagues and peers. And, those are maybe some lessons I've learned over the years. I love that. I love that, Mark. This is the best part, I think, personally of the entire podcast where, quite frankly, we get to write a bit of a love letter to the future revenue leaders that are going to come after you, right? They're going to watch your long tenure and career and think, gosh, I can see myself doing that. And so I'm going to ask you to finish this sentence, Dear Future CRO, and what would be your quote? Love letter. What would be your letter of advice completing that sentence? Dear future CRO to the listeners that are listening in right now. This is some advice from a person that you and I both used to work with. Get on the jungle gym and ride the rides. The job you're in today will not be your last job. Get in all of the different parts of the company that you work for and understand that company, become a student of that company. If you work for a great company, go out there in all kinds of different roles. We talk about it. The clear, the ladder is no longer a career ladder. It's more of a lattice. And I think this was good advice that I'd gotten years ago. If you're looking for a great company, go do different things. I think those are, that's one of the most important bits of advice I've gotten. If you're not working for a company that affords you different opportunities, go out in the market and get those different opportunities. Thanks. Because at the end of the day, when you go for the role that's going to be your, whether it's a C level role or a senior level role that you want, the folks that are going to decide on who the right people are for that job, they're going to decide on things like the depth of experience you have. It's certainly in certain categories, if it's sales or product or what have you, but they're also gonna look for varied experiences. What else did this person do? What other perspective can they bring to the role? Because there's plenty of people who are really deep and great salespeople, but do they understand finance? Do they understand, product? Do they understand, compliance and things like that? When we're looking for senior leaders, we're looking for people who have had varied experiences, almost a T shaped leadership approach, if you will. That's my advice. Get on the jungle gym, ride the rides and get all the experiences because the job you're in today won't be your last job. I love it, mark. I am so grateful you took this time. Gosh, the amount of lessons on this jungle gym you've shared with us. I know so many are going to get so much out of this. It is also great to see you again. And, I'm so happy for you on this new journey and can't wait to see what you accomplish in this next few years at Salesloft. So thanks so much for this time. Me too. Thanks for having me.