Roddick talks Super Tour & the Saudis, Andy Murray's clap back, Sports gambling & AI plus Taylor Swift with Jon Wertheim

In this episode presented by Swing Vision, join the legendary tennis player Andy Roddick and the distinguished journalist Jon Wertheim as they delve into the swirling rumors of a tennis Super Tour and the impact of Saudi Arabia's sporting ambitions. The duo also examines the recent controversy surrounding Andy Murray and the media's involvement. Roddick offers his invaluable player's perspective, while Wertheim probes into the media's role in shaping athletes' careers. Wertheim further captivates with insights from his riveting 60 Minutes exposé on the surge of sports gambling and the transformative influence of AI, discussing its burgeoning place in the sports world.

Lastly, they pivot from courtside to pop culture, entertaining the electrifying prospect of Taylor Swift potentially gracing the upcoming Super Bowl. 

Don't miss out! Tune in and brace yourself for the next electrifying serve!

Transcript

Andy Roddick: 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back for week two, episode two of the serve podcast, with me, andy Roddick. We are going to start this show with the most important part of it. A huge thank you to you all that downloaded, liked, subscribed on all the different platforms that we're going to show right here right now Hopefully it pops up otherwise I'm just making random hand motions but the success in the first week was humbling. It was more than we anticipated. With doing a tennis podcast, we're in the top 10 for all sports podcasts in America. Apparently, producer Mike, we're big in Brazil. We were huge in Brazil. That's fantastic. Obrigado, brazil. I think we were two for a second in sports podcast, but I don't know how that happens. I think I played there when I was 15, but we're so touched and we're so thankful.

Andy Roddick: 1:01

Another thing that's a big deal is we're thankful for your feedback. Right, we put up polls and what did you want us to talk about? What was your take on this? Did you want to learn more about this subject? And so you dictated large, large parts of what this show will be. So if you don't like this episode, look in the mirror. It's on you. You made a bad decision because we're covering what you told us to.

Andy Roddick: 1:22

In all seriousness, just a fantastic response. Be sure to check us out on all of our socials. Social Sophie, who runs all of our digital content in our social, has done an amazing job. Has done some some cool bits. Mixing in my dumb takes with Steve Carell, she did a thing for John Worthheim where the bar cheered when he came on more than when I existed. She's doing some really fun stuff that I am certainly not tech capable enough to do and or funny enough to do, so she's doing an awesome job. So be sure to follow us on all of the socials. We're trying to kind of get him into the where they all have the same name little disjointed, but we can find us. Please like us, follow us. Do all of that good stuff.

Andy Roddick: 2:03

We are going to talk about some really lighthearted stuff today, like how Saudi Arabia is going to take over tennis and sports gambling, the marketing effects, john Worthheim, who is our guest, again still recruiting him to be the co-host, but basically how advanced marketing is dangerous, and especially when it comes to gambling but my side was is it bringing new fans to the game? Are there positives from it? How is it different from a lot of the everyday things that we do or choose to consume as adults. So hopefully you'll find that interesting. I certainly learned something every time that I talked to John Worthheim.

Andy Roddick: 2:39

I think it's time to also mention something that I think is completely underexposed. Big congratulations to Taylor Allison Swift, winning pop album of the year at the Grammys in mind, melting half of America in the process. We're going to cop off the perfect week where maybe her boyfriend goes and wins the Super Bowl. Maybe people lose it because she's wearing a jersey, I don't know. But congrats to her for kind of general world domination. We are going to talk some prop bets later. John doesn't know. We're going to do it, so I'm going to try to take him by surprise, which will be fun. Oh, and we're going to obviously discuss her on top of being the largest touring sensation the world has ever seen and putting out hit records and launching another album in April.

Andy Roddick: 3:26

But doing all that and having the time to be a covert government sigh up. I'm just curious about how the mechanics of that. Is it bad that my first reaction is like how do the logistics work? How is there that much time? How do we write folklore and also do that I'm just saying it seems like a lot. I'm worried about burnout. Frankly, I think that's a real concern, but apparently she handles it off. We're going to talk about me getting myself in trouble on Twitter, basically someone asking if Andy Murray's current form affects his legacy, which I have a very strong opinion about. But I also want to give the benefit out to the journalists by talking to our own resident opinion maker and journalism, john Worthheim.

Andy Roddick: 4:15

Without further ado, let's get into some more time and thank you again for listening to the SERP. All right, guys, our first sponsor. Full disclosure. I love this product so much. I am a user and I invested in it myself calling. All tennis enthusiasts Want to know the secret weapon of professional players. It's not just talent, but data and analysis. Now you can unlock that same advantage with SwingVision, the AI app that revolutionizes your game Immigration, real-time stats, personalized insights and highlight reels that showcase your progress. Plus, with smartwatch integration, you get superhuman line calls on your wrist. Stop guessing and start winning. Get your free swing stick and trial at swingvisionrsrb. Take your tennis game from good to great with SwingVision. All right. And now we bring in our second ever guest, who was also our first ever guest From the Department of Redundancy Department, our friend John Worthheim. You came back. You came back for another shot.

Jon Wertheim: 5:21

Back in civilization, back here. You're like the mirror and Drava of podcasters. You come out of the gate strong and see if you can sustain it now. But good effort from you.

Andy Roddick: 5:36

Well, listen, if you could promise me that I would have her future but in this vertical, I'd be pretty happy about it. So that's high praise and much appreciated. You're home now. You're back from Australia. Like where in the world is, I won't say Carmen, san Diego? Where's John Worthheim?

Jon Wertheim: 5:54

Yeah, it's boring. I mean I'm in Greenwich Village back home, but, boy, australia sidebar great country. Everyone should go there. We should all be living there. But back home now and we'll see where I am next week.

Andy Roddick: 6:10

So I was doing. If I backtrack like 15 or 20 years, or even the last 10 or 12 since I stopped playing, I didn't think my ESPN commentary debut would be for pickleball, but that's how I spent my night. Last night was my debut with Chris Fowler. Was talking about a bunch of legendary has been tennis players playing a sport they didn't grow up playing. So that's what I did Good for you.

Jon Wertheim: 6:41

We'll have to talk about pickleball at greater lengths sometime. But yeah, see, I like how Fowler goes from the national championship game. No, probably what. 35 million people watching now he's doing pickleballs. But we'll save that for another podcast. But boy pickleball ain't going anywhere, is it?

Andy Roddick: 7:01

I don't think it's going anywhere and like I think there's something to relate it to later in the show, but it was fun. Frankly, like those events are amazing for me because you have people in a room, whether it's you know, Andre and Steph, who are in kind of like full go mode again, right, Like they're just doing stuff, which is amazing Like I've known Andre and he's been, you know, my idol for a long time. But I have a hard time being in Steph's presence without being like incredibly starstruck, which in the tennis world at this moment in my life, not to sound jaded, I don't get that way around many people in our orbit anymore. Ever, having having kind of lived this life for a little while and Steph is like a huge exception I can't be around her without feeling like everything I say is just idiotic, which it might be.

Jon Wertheim: 7:46

I'm just more conscious of it, steph and Tracy Chapman emerging on the same weekend.

Jon Wertheim: 7:52

No, she go go back and look at what she did. My theory about her is that she suffers a great deal for not being in the public eye and people don't really. You know, if she were on broadcast or coaching or doing the speaking rounds, it would be one thing. She's made a conscientious choice and I think it's really admirable. Until I'm done with being a public figure, I want to be normal, I want to go to home depot, not be recognized, and I think that is really kind of impacted her legacy. Go back and look at what she achieved. She won all four majors, field the quadruple career slam. She won all four majors a minimum of four times and she was out by 30. I mean, it's a joke what she achieved. But I feel like, because she is not front and center by her own choice, maybe we don't give her her due. So, no, great to see her and Andre both back, and if this kind of is a harbinger, you know, if this is a prelude to more public appearances, that's great and we welcome her.

Andy Roddick: 8:45

Yeah, and I was lucky enough to hang out and have a beer with them afterwards last night and it's always fun. But it's pretty simple. They're like we're empty nesters. Now we can go do stuff. I can go to Australia for, like you inspired them with your words last week worth time.

Jon Wertheim: 9:02

They're singing my song. I tell you something Our kids were born like, our sons were born like a few weeks apart and our daughters were born a few weeks apart. Just total, total coincidence, I hasten to add. But yeah, it sounds like we're at the same stage of life and this could be a recurring theme. But yeah, empty nest is a game changer.

Andy Roddick: 9:23

Yeah, listen, we're better for having them. It was great to see Maria. James. Sock is nasty at pickleball. He beat the number four pickleball player in the world last week, just you know, and he also won a mixed doubles tour title last week last year as a hobby with Italy waters, but anyways, it was cool. We'll take a deeper dive into that at some point. So what I need we're getting a lot of feedback. We put a poll out from some of our early listeners and the question was a version of this, of the rumored super tour, which I want you to give maybe some context to, on what we're actually dealing with. Are you for it, are you against it or do you want more information, which which I think is an incredible. I think it's a good option to give people and 65% of respondents said that they wanted more information, so give us information.

Jon Wertheim: 10:18

Oh man, you want the 10 talk version or the fit for podcast.

Andy Roddick: 10:22

Yeah, it's whatever. Whatever you, whatever you choose, it's all the same to me.

Jon Wertheim: 10:26

Yeah, I mean jump in anytime, because to me it's fascinating and this is really tennis intersecting with all sorts of social and economic issues. Saudi Arabia is driving this right. Saudi Arabia very wealthy country. Oil is not forever. They're trying to diversify their economy, not a great reputation and sort of the global theater that they would like to improve. Well, here's one way to do. It is through sports, and there is a huge investment in sports. This is not about stadiums and media rights deals, the way it is in most places. This is about rebranding an entire country and I think that's important. You know, success is not going to be measured based on what TV deals they land or how many fans sit in the stands. This is something much more macro, about changing perception of Saudi Arabia and changing the way it trades with other countries and is perceived by other countries. So they've obviously sunk a lot of attention in the sports.

Jon Wertheim: 11:15

We have a live tour in golf, which was kind of a first for a. That hasn't gone so well. We're still trying to figure out what that means. It was greatly controversial. There were lawsuits. There's now this sort of kind of sort of merger. They want to avoid that. But they've made.

Jon Wertheim: 11:31

The Saudis have made it very clear Tennis is an area where they'd like to grow as well. There's a lot of money and the question for tennis is how do we do this? Do we risk a rival tour like the live golf tour, or do we try and make nice and figure out a way to come up with a win-win? And what seems to be on the table now Craig Tiley is a driving force is that Saudis put a lot of capital into the sport. The 10 biggest events get to the nine biggest events get together, they combine with the four majors, they add a big event in Saudi Arabia, probably in January or February. Suddenly you have this super tour. I think you and I are just calling it that. I don't know if that's going to be the official, you know, I don't know if that's the official word for it, but it's kind of the super tour where the players and Craig Tiley took a lot of meetings in Australia and he sort of put the players one on one and said listen, you're going to make double, triple, maybe four times as much money as you're making now. We need you to play these 14 events. You'd be playing them anyway what this does for the tour. I mean, you know, the tennis is very good at coming up with these broad plans and then the devils and the details may never really get worked out, but the plan is essentially and again this is very much driven by Saudi Arabia and this money dangling combine the nine biggest events, the four majors and a Saudi Arabia event, and suddenly you have this 14 event tour.

Jon Wertheim: 12:49

What that does for everything else on the calendar is a big question. Is this men and women is a question that's out. There are players going to go for it. There are ethical considerations as well. This is a country that has public beheadings and this is a country that doesn't have a penal code, but they do criminalize homosexuality. This is a country where there are life tracker apps. Men and women are not treated equally.

Jon Wertheim: 13:15

Some people say listen, nobody's perfect. I tend to think that moral, relative argument is pretty weak. Other people say absolutely no, and I think there are more nuanced takes. We love being binary. Life is complicated. Chrissy and Martina, I think, have been opposed and I think they have a really good point, which is thank you for your interest. We need to see some thresholds met. We're not comfortable going to your country right now. We're not comfortable bringing this flagship women's event to a country where women aren't treated equally. We're concerned that five years ago, a journalist was killed with bone saws. We're concerned that this year alone there have been public executions. You raise your standards to hear, and then we'll reengage. Other people are much more forgiving.

Jon Wertheim: 14:01

We can talk about Nadal, who signed this sort of ambassador ship with the Stoutie Federation, but it brings up a lot of issues we talked last week about. Time is undefeated. Money's got a pretty good track record too. So we see a lot of athletes and a lot of sports. This isn't just tennis. Chris John-Aleynaldo is playing there, and they're boxing and UFC and Formula One. This tennis isn't the only sport, obviously, but I'm curious A your thoughts. B have you thought about how you would respond if you were in this position and if you were given a chance to play there for a lot of money?

Andy Roddick: 14:38

Yeah, so I've been on record saying I wouldn't have left for live. The PGA Tour is pretty good. I think they have 45 minute flights for the next four weeks between tour events all up and down the West Coast for a lot of money. But the biggest thing for me I can say no to money because I am a capitalist in life. I like to go get things. I believe in free markets, but I also don't like doing things if they feel gross and if they feel a little bit icky.

Andy Roddick: 15:13

I would not have gone, if I was a golfer, to live to basically play a set of exhibitions that don't even have a cut and that don't even play four rounds. And the biggest thing is like my life's work is built up to try to have that moment at a major right At Wimbledon. That's the difference here. That kind of causes me pause. I think there's big differentials between kind of defecting to live, which is everyone's prerogative if they wanna do it, and they're paying 52 year olds that haven't been relevant in the game $250 million. Who am I to tell that person that they can't do it as long as they can live and sleep? Well, that's your grownups, that's certainly your choice. I don't think I would have done it. But this is very different because if all of a sudden the majors are involved in this whole thing, I don't think as a player I'm gonna give up what I've worked towards since I was six because someone made a deal that I'm uncomfortable with. I don't know that. I'm not gonna walk out on center quarter at Wimbledon. If it is kind of all bundled up together and you kind of have to opt in or opt out, and I don't know if that's the situation, I would have a hard time not doing that. Personally, I would have to play the majors. I would have to play the US Open.

Andy Roddick: 16:30

I did say no and we talked about if I wanna talk about it on air or not. I did say no. There was an exhibition opportunity that was brought to me for this April and I said no out of hand because I didn't want the follow-up of how much are they gonna pay you? I just kind of didn't wanna know. So I said no out of hand one because I fear being a hypocrite as much as most things in life, and I've certainly taken stands before. So for my case, I'm not playing in majors anymore. I don't have my eyes on the biggest prize. My life's work is done in the tennis sense. New beginnings cheers. Here we are.

Andy Roddick: 17:10

But what I worked for since I was eight, I got the opportunity and I took a shot at the basket. If those opportunities are off the table, then hypocrisy, I think, jumps in a little bit. But if the super tour is somehow structured where they can swallow up the four slams, they have all the leverage right. The ATP their biggest value ads are infrastructure, history, ranking system and relationships with the players and they make a profit at ATP tour, the world finals, that's where they make kind of their big lump to kind of make the other 40-some odd weeks profitable. If all of a sudden they get their marquee events taken, you can replicate a ranking system. No one owns math and the grain slams are now kind of looped into this new investment. I don't think it's competing tours, I think it's over.

Jon Wertheim: 18:06

Yeah, I mean I think a lot of this is defense, right. A lot of this is we don't want these guys to swallow us up. And what happens when the Saudis and we're talking, I mean literally limitless amount of money. I mean it's just, it's silly money. I mean they're paying Cristiano Ronaldo more than Steph Curry, lebron, pat Mahomet and Aaron Judge make combined. So if they can get a few top players buy them off, all of tennis is in a world of hurt. So I think some of this is a defensive move to sort of say listen, let's all play nice in the sandbox, we'll give you a big event and try and foreclose a live type situation. I'll tell you one thing, really one thing that was really interesting to me.

Jon Wertheim: 18:44

I went over there about a year ago. I didn't go for tennis, but they happened to be having this exhibition. I played high school matches in front of bigger crowds then. This was not about 10,000 people going to watch. You know, karyos and Rublev and I think Taylor Fritz ended up winning the million dollars. They were like you know, you could count the fans with two hands.

Jon Wertheim: 19:08

But one of the first people I saw there was Judy Murray, and I'm saying wait a second, andy Murray has gone on record as saying he won't play Saudi Arabia. He has problems with this and sports washing, and his mom is one of the first people I happened to see there. She was doing a clinic. Her attitude clearly is look, we need to build bridges, we need exposure, we need to break down barriers. Andy had a very different take. So even in the same household, two very reasonable people can reach a very different conclusion about this. But yeah, I mean, it's an open secret that women are. If they're not going to move their tour finals there, it's going to be one of the great upsets of the year because that everything sort of. But the ink is dry, we keep. We were told this is something tennis is going to have to reckon with. And look, I mean, I'm open to the suggestion. Maybe it's great that tennis is going to this country and it's going to help accelerate this cultural change. I also think this could get really ugly in a hurry.

Jon Wertheim: 20:01

There are gay players. How do they feel going to a country where homosexuality is criminalized? There are government provided wife apps where men can keep track of their spouses. I'm not sure that's consistent with the WTA's values. So it's complicated. It's a big story. It brings in sort of the best and worst of tennis and, like everything in the sport, it's all about the details and we'll see whether it's exactly what you said. Look, can I play the four majors? I'm not comfortable going to Saudi Arabia, but you're telling me I have to go in order to be eligible for the majors. That's like the open tennis shit we were talking about in the 60s. It's brutal. It's all about the details. So right now, big bags of money on the table, a lot of people are playing defense players. Yeah, you go to me and I'm 24 years old and you're telling me I could triple my earnings. I'm listening, I'm listening to that conversation, but we will see how it plays out.

Andy Roddick: 20:52

Yeah, like you say, the devil's in the details. And I'm sitting here going, as you're saying, kind of the listen. Tennis forever has been. I always say I feel so lucky to have been caught up in its vacuum, whether it's morally, whether it's the way people are charitable. The Mount Rushmore of tennis has done more outside of the game than they've done inside the game, which is something I've really taken a lot of pride in being a part of. But, as you're saying, devils in the details. And homosexuality is illegal. But we have openly gay players. You know Casa Kena came out last year. Now if she goes there and play, are we just telling her to take a week off of her sexuality? I mean, how do we, even, how do we protect our own players who are, you know, their life choices are viewed as criminal when they enter this place is like, how do we protect those mechanisms and can whatever is said now be trusted when it's actually in practice?

Jon Wertheim: 21:49

So what if we said you know what, we're really thrilled, we're flattered by your interest. We think this could be a win-win. Here's what we need to see before we move our tour there. We have openly gay players. It's, you know, not only awkward, it's really problematic and disturbing that homosexuality has not been decriminalized. So we, you know it's like any business with KPI right here are the thresholds we need to see. Hit these and we're good to go.

Jon Wertheim: 22:14

So I think tennis has more leverage here than maybe it gives itself credit for. And maybe the WTA needs to say listen, before we can commit we need to see XYZ. And if the Saudis say, go fuck yourselves like we'll go find another sport, and so be it. But you know, I mean we're coming off. We're coming off a not dissimilar situation in China that didn't go so well for the women's tour. A little strange to take a stance on China and then move your subsequent event to Saudi Arabia. I mean there's a lot going on here, but I do think that again, devils in the details. Can tennis say to the Saudis love to have a partnership, a lot of potential. Candidly, we could use your cash infusion, but we need to see a certain number of conditions met before we sign on the dotted line here.

Andy Roddick: 23:00

Now that sounds too rational, but I, you know, listen, I fear that what's going to happen is okay, those conditions, what are those conditions worth? In this conversation, and like you said, money is oftentimes undefeated. What I don't want to see is, let's say, the WTA finals goes there. Right, we're basically willing to make concessions and you know, for the last however many years the branding is you know women, equality, power. You know the dynamic nature of our women. We make as much as the men and all of these kind of great things to be passionate about. Like you can't just take a playoff right, you got to stop that shit. If you choose to make this trade off, I don't want to see the warm and fuzzies as one of the pillars of your marketing after that, like you kind of can't do that anymore. Is that unfair? Yeah?

Jon Wertheim: 23:59

I had a conversation with someone else. I said look, I don't understand how Ronaldo, Phil Mickelson, even Rafa, like everyone else, can take the money, but suddenly we're drawing the line at the women.

Jon Wertheim: 24:08

They're the ones that have to take the most, and so yes but the front side of that is exactly what you say, that when your tour is essentially marketing, it is essentially marketed around equality and social justice and Billie Jean King and feminism. It does put you in a little bit of a different situation from the UFC and Tyson Fury and Ronaldo. Yeah, it would be nice if everybody were on the same page here and everybody said we don't like that. Men and women aren't treated equally. We don't like that. You know. Again, there's no penal code, which to me is something that never mind that homosexuality is criminalized. The fact that, like, you can be arrested and you're not told what for, and this whole idea that sort of no country is perfect, is kind of the response you get, right, I mean, it's this moral relativism and you know, glass that's such a waste of, such a lazy explanation for anything like that's like this, that's like a version of that's the way it's always been done.

Andy Roddick: 25:05

Like we should have never stopped, you know, going to blockbuster. Like I don't understand what. That doesn't make any sense.

Jon Wertheim: 25:11

Like obviously we're all imperfect. Exactly, yeah, but you can't compare.

Andy Roddick: 25:15

You can't compare, like a 10 year old stealing a pack of trading cards to what's going on over there, like that's not the same. Those, those aren't the same. But it is interesting, like you brought up. I mean it's not as if the Saudis are going after characters in our sport that don't have the general level of respect. On one side you have Martina and Chrissy that are staunchly against it and you have Billy Jean saying taking the stance of maybe we can affect change. Right, billy Jean? Can you imagine the Billy Jean King Cup in Saudi Arabia, right, like that's? That's a weird couple to me, but it seems like that's at least in the rumor mill. And listen, I'm not plugged in like you are, I'm not around the tour every day and having those conversations in the hallways, that to me seems like a mismatch.

Jon Wertheim: 26:00

Yeah, I mean, again, the money is the big player here. But you know, I think reasonable people can reach different conclusions and the one thing I think we all need to acknowledge is that in Saudi Arabia things are going in there. I mean, you know, I saw the women without head coverings and there was a. You know, I saw a non binary DJ and I saw women boxing unthinkable five or 10 years, you know women were allowed to drive five years ago.

Jon Wertheim: 26:26

So I do think we ought to acknowledge that things are going in the right direction. Having said all that, there's a long way to go. This isn't me talking. I mean any objective human rights organization. I mean just play around on Google and you can see as far as human rights go. We got a ways to go here. So it's it's a developing story. In a way, it's fascinating. It brings up a lot of what's good and what's defective with tennis and we'll see how it all plays out, I guess.

Andy Roddick: 26:56

Yeah, I will say like we do need to give some some context so we don't just have our heads in the sand. Like the WTA finals, since they took that stance against China, has been a dumpster fire, right. They put it on last minute in Dallas a couple years ago. They're doing a disservice to the product that these women are putting out by being unorganized. Maybe not unorganized is an unfair term, but being reactionary and waiting till the last minute. I mean they put an outdoor event in Cabo at the end of the year, kind of cobbled together. It looked like there were 2,500 people in the stands. So it does.

Andy Roddick: 27:31

It's not the people leaving the PGA tour, which was thriving, doing well building. It's not as if you're leaving a great product for potentially good product but with more money. That's not the situation with the WTA. The finals has been underrepresented on a global scale the last couple of years. It's gone about as badly as it could go, as far as putting together an organized, cohesive event that is a celebration of the kind of best of the year.

Andy Roddick: 28:04

And listen, I do think it needs to be said that I can certainly have my opinions on if I would go do it. I don't have any consequences. There's nothing really there. Do I need an extra X amount of money? That's probably not going to change my life right. But if, five years from now, rafa and Billie Jean King all of a sudden pull this off and things do change, everyone who's against it has to eat crow a little bit. We do need to have an open mind towards a result that is different than what we suspect or anticipate, if it does happen and I can't think of two more reputable, credible, talented spokespeople for the game so maybe they're seeing something that the rest of earth isn't and maybe they can affect it, but I'm afraid that we won't know that until it's too late and it's hard to say that. I hope their eyes are wide open.

Jon Wertheim: 29:02

All right. Well, let's thought exercises. What about the reverse? Five years ago, a Washington Post journalist was killed by the Saudis. With Bonsauz, you say, oh, we go to China and suddenly we have the Bunk Shui situation and we have Uighurs being massacred. Saudi Arabia has gone. Google Saudi Arabia and Yemen yeah, if things go great and this is seen as bridge building and this is a South African boycott that leads to the breakup of apartheid, great. I also think we need to hold open the possibility things could really go south, and if you've let your support and cash the check and things don't go in a positive direction, that's a risk as well.

Andy Roddick: 29:47

I also like I can't stand here and kind of grain stand without owning my own shit right, Like that's, that's not where I want to live. I've played in a million places and probably taken appearance fees in a million places. I was largely, you know, 26. I don't know that I knew the depths of anything politically or you know, socioeconomically or geopolitically that was going on. Frankly, it just wasn't in my orbit.

Andy Roddick: 30:13

So this is, you know, the 41 year old version of me looking backwards. You know I probably was dumb enough to think people just dress differently and I was. That was that's fine. That's never been an issue for me, Difference never been an issue. So I listen, I'm sure I'm rightfully going to get called out on a lot of my opinions, but I also think that if we're not learning and changing all the time, then we're stuck in the mud and we're kind of idiotic. So you know, I want to own my part of it. There are a lot of nuances to this conversation, but I think it's safe to say that we can all agree that these rumors aren't going anywhere. It feels like there's a head of steam there, feels like there is a sense of inevitability to this happening. So I guess I'll ask you. You know from where you said if it is inevitable, you know, and someone's going to take it, why wouldn't it be tennis?

Jon Wertheim: 31:08

Yeah, I mean that's right. I mean that's that's, that's, that's a great point and that's, I think, I'm sure, a point that's being impressed on a number of these players. Look, look, the money's hanging here and if you guys don't want it, it's going to go to someone else. So it's, it's. It's a tough one, right, and careers are short, different play. I mean you know you can decline an offer, like you say you can decline an offer. Your 41 years old is not going to change your life. Yep, if you're a 22 year old athlete and Craig Tiley is suddenly saying you're going to be able to double or triple whatever you made last year to 2x3x, I you know it's.

Jon Wertheim: 31:43

I think we all need to kind of, it's very easy to be binary here, right, and it's very easy to say everyone's doing it, nothing to see here, stop moralizing. And conversely, it's very easy to say this is an authoritarian country that publicly beheads people. No one should go there. It's a nuance, you know. I think there's a lot to be discussed here and it doesn't really lend itself to hot takes and 140 characters.

Andy Roddick: 32:09

You would.

Andy Roddick: 32:10

I think the common ground that everyone should be able to find is that if there is a leverage point and we're holding this super tour, you know, it seems like it might be a possibility Like you're saying, let's call our shot and let's have our progress points in writing at the beginning, right, so that all of a sudden, while we do have the leverage, we can actually go and at least try to affect change, not after the fact, but in real time, I think, kind of trusting someone who has maybe this history, I think you would need to cross T's and dot eyes and do those hard negotiations while you still have the leverage of these events.

Andy Roddick: 32:53

And also one more question I want to ask. Like it's really easy to say just kind of, get the slams together, they function, they're all there in their own silos. It's not as if they have like an association where they come together and make decisions all at once, Like we're making something crazy and something that has never even been really thought of and it almost dies upon the ideation phase because they each operate in their own side. The All England Club is going to operate differently than Craig Charlie and Australia different from the USA, different from from from in Paris. Now is it realistic that you know these are all going to get lumped together, and if three out of the four say yes to the deal, is it still a deal?

Jon Wertheim: 33:38

We are all creatures of incentive. No, it's a great question. I mean, you're right. These are four entities that don't tend to act in coordination less when it's convenient. Well, you know what it's really convenient here? And I think the big fear, honestly, is the Saudi say like they did with golf and say you know what the hell with it Carlos Alcarez, $250 million, coco, $200 million and just start essentially buying off players and having a standalone rival tour. I think that's the great fear here. So, yeah, I don't think Wimbledon is necessarily doing this because they're a show of altruism. I think everybody is doing some risk analysis here and if it's holding my nose and joining the super tour versus risking that the Saudis are just going to buy off the 10 best players and I'm going to lose my equity, then yeah, it's all very complicated. It's a lot of strange bedfellows, it's a lot of strange alignments, but I think you look at what happened with golf and I think that's what tennis wants to avoid.

Andy Roddick: 34:39

The golf thing is weird though, because and we'll move on to how I got myself in trouble on Twitter this week after this but the golf thing I responded and I said some stuff in defense of Andy Murray and yada, yada, yada. We'll get into that. But the golf thing is different though, because, like I would be getting like an offer as an active player if it was the live model. Like we're taking a bunch of guys who like don't even qualify for Grand Slam's anymore and we can slot them into the live tour. Like if I had to go out and play an actual pro right now, it would be the most tragic TV viewing that had ever existed. So I don't know that it's you can slot it in because the careers are so much shorter. The variance is so much obvious, more obvious to the eye. Right, someone shooting two over and someone shooting four under can kind of play in the same sandbox on TV, me playing so Yannick's center right now. It isn't even like. It's not a product that is that you can even purchase, even if you have the marketing budget, which is essentially what this is for for Saudi Arabia, an unlimited marketing budget for your country. Even that can't play on TV. It's so bad Like. So I do think there are some differences. I don't think it's a direct comparison with live, mainly for the slams, what's available and also just the product on TV. We have to run, we have to be in shape, like there's a limited number of people that can actually do this. You're not pooling from 600 golfers around the world to fill a couple of tours. You're pooling from a much smaller amount. So I don't know that it's a direct comp. Is your tennis game stuck in the Stone Age? Are you still relying on intuition and luck? It's time to enter the future with Swing Vision, the AI app that analyzes your game better than your worst critic, but way more supportive. I love this product. I love how much I invested in it and use it myself. Say goodbye to hours of match footage and hello to highlight reels that capture your brilliance and maybe a few bloopers Founded by Tech Wizards from Tesla and Apple. Swing Vision is like having a personal AI coach whispering golden nuggets of wisdom without the hourly rate. Get your free Swing Stick and trial at swingvisionrslashserve. Take your tennis game from good to great with Swing Vision.

Andy Roddick: 36:53

Did you see the Murray thing this week, where the journalist, basically, was just talking out loud. I want your take on this, because maybe I'm overly sensitive to it or something. The thing that really pissed me off is like okay, is it time for Andy Murray to retire? I think it's a little bit of a tacky question in the first place. But also, is what he's doing now tarnishing his legacy? Right as if what he does in Montpelier takes away Wimbledon titles, us Open titles, and it's amazing how it's like oh gosh, all we want is for this drought from the 20s to end, and then, six years later, it's like oh wait, but not if you lose in the first round of Montpelier. Am I overreacting to this?

Jon Wertheim: 37:38

I feel like two things you never do are question athletes injuries and tell them when to retire. No, this whole notion of tarnishing legacy.

Andy Roddick: 37:47

It's so stupid.

Jon Wertheim: 37:48

It's so stupid and I also think like I mean it's so lazy, it's not, you know, but I also. I mean I always point to Venus Williams and say, listen, she doesn't want to major in whatever 15 years. You know what she still finds fulfillment. She's not taking money off anyone's table. She still finds the whatever it is, she still finds a satisfaction. Is anybody saying, oh, Venus Williams, her legacy is tarnished because she hasn't won a major in more than a decade? There's one, you know. I think it's such a tough decision for athletes to write. I mean, you've devoted your life to this. I'm curious how you even went about this decision. I don't know if you got this same nonsense and these sort of you know you get these questions at press conferences and it's. There's one skill you have the minute you retire, you may never be as good at anything else in your life.

Andy Roddick: 38:35

Yeah.

Jon Wertheim: 38:36

If you still find, if Andy Murray still finds fulfillment and still has a reason to get like, why would you ever not want him to keep doing it? Well, like lick the bottom of the glass, dude, like I don't get it Well but by that like Venus, I support all your arguments that you made about Venus.

Andy Roddick: 38:50

Like I love Venus. There's no downside to having a William sister in your draw, and especially if she's playing like I remember it was. She was playing in like Birmingham, england, last year in the lead up to Wimbledon and she who did she be? She had a good win, she had a, she won a couple of matches and you know I got on TC live and I was just pumped because I had watched the drama she got, she beat Camilla Georgie and then she played well against Ostepenko and she kind of had, like this, this flashback week and people like, well, she took a spot from you know someone I'm like well, she also might have sold tickets that you know bump up the economy in that community.

Andy Roddick: 39:24

Like, how far do you want to take this argument? You might have added to the pockets of thousands of people, while taking away an opportunity of someone who didn't actually qualify on merit. Like what that's an entitlement? Like that's not that you're not taking it away from anyone who didn't have it to begin with, right? Like you're basically giving someone an entitlement that adds more value than giving someone an entitlement or a wild card that doesn't add as much value Like I don't. Maybe I'm oversimplifying this thing.

Jon Wertheim: 39:51

No, it's a really good point. That's excellent.

Andy Roddick: 39:52

Yeah, I mean, you know whatever.

Jon Wertheim: 39:53

it's not like she took someone's roster spot. It's not like there's a salary cap and she's eating up the. What do we care? Venus Williams wants to play till she's 60.

Andy Roddick: 40:01

God bless, I don't get it If she gets a wild card, just so everyone listening. So again I'm going to do a little Twitter fingers right, like just so everyone listening. If someone gets a wild card, they're not taking the spot until all of the rules of tennis changed from the last 50 years. She is not taking a spot from anyone who has qualified with their ranking, which those qualifications? I'm not sure what it is on the men's side it used to be six weeks in advance, so that is locked in. You are entered from your ranking. That is six weeks in advance of the wild cards that are sometimes given four days before the event starts, like they're not the same. And thank God I have more than however many words I can argue with on Twitter to actually make this point.

Andy Roddick: 40:42

But even Murray it's even more because he's earned the points to qualify. He's not taking these wild cards, he's getting in on his own merit. He is a top 50 player right now on one leg. So I feel like it's adding to the mystique of Andy Murray. Like I'm sitting here going. Did I ever love the game as much as he loves it going out there on one leg delivering a product that would be subpar to what he is? He's seen the best in the world. He is eyes wide open, he's one of the most intelligent people that we have in our game and you're telling him like he can't participate in a job that he's earned not by virtue of someone giving him the job, by the fact that he is one of the best 50 players in the world and he can enter any term and he wants where the cutoff is above 50 in the world. Why am I wrong?

Jon Wertheim: 41:38

Well, and isn't that now part of an awesome part of his leg you can tarnish?

Andy Roddick: 41:42

a legacy right.

Jon Wertheim: 41:43

Like Rudy Giuliani, tarnishes his legacy right. I mean you can tarnish a legacy, but I don't know how in sports. Isn't part of Venus's legacy now that, hey, he's still playing into her 40s? How awesome is that? Andy Murray won his majors and now, north of age 35, he's still going out there week after week. And isn't that? No one's saying, oh, he did win three majors but we're going to knock it down to two because he's now?

Andy Roddick: 42:06

right now you can't take away. You can't take away accomplishment because someone has lost matches in a 250 event in a place where no one's watching except the people that live in that city.

Jon Wertheim: 42:21

Like, let me give you a break. What do you? What do you think is it? What do you think this is? Because I thought about this, like, why is this a unique Andy Murray right? This comes up a lot of times. It's time to go. You know, roger, got it plenty. Why do fans do this? Like, what do you? What do you suppose is the motivation here?

Andy Roddick: 42:40

I don't know. I think it's like a well, you just, they just need to retire. I think you don't think about it and you don't relay it. Like I had a moment in a press conference where I got chippy about Roger and the last thing I wanted to do in a press conference is have to defend Roger after the. You know he ruined my life for a decade, even though I love the guy. But you know they were like well, roger's down to it was basically the line of questioning was like three or four questions in a row of you know, well, what should Roger do? He's down at three in the world. You know, is is it? I go? Okay, how many journalists are in here right now? And there was like 10, I go. Then 30% of you should leave right now or never write another story by, and I go.

Andy Roddick: 43:21

But but we're pulling. We're pulling from a talent pool of, like worldwide professionals that have proven they're actually the best at what they do. And so I think people, you know, forget to kind of if there's a conversation, they forget to turn that mirror on themselves and think about what it would look like in practice in their own lives. Like that's like telling someone they get to 60 years old. Think about like a doctor who wants to work until he's 75 because he loves going in and he loves doing it and, you know, maybe he's working shorter hours. I know orthopedic surgeons who work two days a week, who are still great at what they do, but they're not going six days a week. Like would you go into that office and say you know what, you're 60 years old, you know, maybe you are better when you're 40. You're done. I've decided you're. You actually can't do it anymore.

Jon Wertheim: 44:10

I don't get it. I don't think we do this, even that, never my doctors, you know. I don't think nobody said Joanie Mitchell, get off the stage. Your best days are behind you Like, I don't.

Jon Wertheim: 44:18

I just I'm it's always baffled me. I think it's you know it's an easy, cheap column, talking point segment, but I just thought the whole mentality, I mean, don't, don't we want people we admire, don't we want people with exquisite skills to do it as long as they want to do it, like I just I've never understood even that. Never mind the like it's mean spirited, I just I've never even understood the mentality.

Andy Roddick: 44:44

Well, also like, if we're in the business and I always use a Marat Saffin as an example right, like there used to be a minimum number of tournaments you had to play. You know if I could have gotten away with playing 10 events a year instead of the mandatory, you know, whatever, it used to be 20, some odd tournaments I go. Is there any benefit to not having someone like a Saffin, even at 80 in the world? Like he's creating all of those popcorn matchups first and second every single time a Grand Slam draw comes out. You know, imagine if at Wimbledon, murray Jokovic's first round, the place falls to pieces Like who's losing because of that? There's no one. Let him be. Like the average version of himself is better for the first three rounds of any tournament. Like there's no downside.

Jon Wertheim: 45:30

So should Andy have responded and dignified it and gotten people like you involved, should he have turned it into a thing?

Andy Roddick: 45:36

Sure, why not Like listen? I don't think he needs to like go searching for it, but you know, if it's hitting the hit, well, I actually think he's gonna get asked about it. Anyways, the next time, if there's a big story, so why not have it in your own narrative and not be reactionary? Why not like be? Yeah, I have no issue with him doing it. I don't think he's justifying it or giving it credibility. I think he's actually probably doing the opposite, and it's not as if he's texting any of us and saying, hey, listen, need your help on Twitter. Like, that's not the way he operates. I'm fine with him defending himself. Like listen, twitter's changed the game A lot of it is bad.

Andy Roddick: 46:10

You know, one of the things that I would have liked as an athlete is being able to respond without being asked a question. You know I'm not gonna begrudge anyone that opportunity, but like listen, I kind of went off on a tangent. But like, simply, if someone's qualifying for their the tournaments that they're entering, like in losing matches that they wouldn't have lost before, or they don't look as good as they once were, like any, murray knows that. He knows that. He knows what he is versus what he was. It's not as if he's like he's got his head in the sand on any of this, but like to think that, like 10 years from now, people are gonna be like that Montpelier match where he lost to Buena Valpera, who hasn't been winning much, man, I don't know.

Andy Roddick: 46:52

I think differently about the time he broke our streak in one Wimbledon. Yeah, exactly, give me a fucking break. That's so dumb. Okay, that's the last, I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna be mad. Well, I can't promise that. I do have another segment where I might be mad, but tell me about this week's 60 minutes episode. So for those of you who don't know John Wortham, this isn't what he does all the time. He doesn't just exist on podcasts sometimes. But talk about this, the 60 minutes episode that aired this week. The gambling aspect is kind of interesting and I think it's worth a bit of a conversation.

Jon Wertheim: 47:27

Yeah, I mean you jump in at any time. You know this is as well as I do. This is one of the great shifts in sports of the last five, 10 years. Gambling used to be absolute third rail right. You couldn't Tony Romo couldn't hold a fantasy draft. The Super Bowl wouldn't take an ad from the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce because it was gambling adjacent.

Jon Wertheim: 47:47

We've obviously gotten a completely different direction. Now Sports gambling is fueling the engine. It's everywhere. It's legal in 38 states and counting. You can devote entire shows to sports gambling. So I have no issue, you know. I mean that's. It is what it is as part of the landscape. My point of the piece was sort of how is this being marketed and how are these sports gamblers being advertised to? And that's kind of where that's where we focus, and I think that you know this is like no one's denying that we all like alcohol, no one's saying we should go back to prohibition, but you also don't put up a beer tap outside an alcoholic's anonymous meeting. You don't have an open bar in a kindergarten.

Andy Roddick: 48:31

It's literally what I have written down on my very professional notes here. It's like the gambling beer. It's like at what point do we step in and save people from themselves as adults? Right, Like, am I gonna? You know, are we not advertising? As you know, we're not gonna advertise beer anymore because in the wrong hands, with the wrong person, it has catastrophic it can be a catastrophic result. How far do you wanna take it? Do we? Should we take it to processed foods? Also, like, how far do we wanna take this conversation with basically trying to moderate what's good or bad for an adult and what part of that falls under entertainment? Right, yeah, we gotta do something.

Jon Wertheim: 49:12

So, yeah, we can debate what's appropriate marketing and where we draw the line and where free will kicks in, but right now it's the Wild West and these are data companies. They know so much. The same way Instagram and Facebook and you know. You Google weight loss and suddenly you start getting notifications. And then your Twitter feed you suddenly start getting weight loss products. It's the same thing here. These gambling companies know who your favorite teams are, they know when your payday is, they know what time of the day you make your most impetuous bets, what kind of parlays you like, and they can tell who's clearly an addicted gambler, who's making multiple withdrawals every day, and there's very little to sort of stop their marketing. So it's kind of like you know, this is like we do with tobacco and sure process food, to some extent with alcohol.

Jon Wertheim: 50:00

No one's saying sports gambling should be illegal and outlawed and turned back the clock, but we clearly need some regulations on how this is being marketed, cause it's very engineered. There's an AI component, it's very manipulative. Right now they know so much more about you than you know about yourself and right now they're the spiking problem gamblers and at some point we're gonna look back on this and say can you believe they used to have cigarettes in the vending machines of high schools? I think we're gonna say the same thing about sports gambling. Can you believe that kids under 21 were getting push notifications on their payday because the sports book had that data and we're able to exploit it? So that's kind of the story. No one's saying ban sports gambling, it's here, it's part of the landscape. It's just a question of regulating.

Andy Roddick: 50:52

Are we putting cancer warnings on the packs of cigarettes? Is that what we're trying to do?

Jon Wertheim: 50:58

Yeah, that's what made the point of the piece, that there's all this high tech data and these are, like you know, ai, and then the way you get help is the warning the cancer warning is the call this 1-800 number for help. So they've got all sorts of AI to get you on, to get you in. If you wanna get out, you gotta call 1-800 number to get you in. They've got all this AI. You know, it's sort of like we've moved so far beyond free drinks at the casino and no clocks. This is now a whole different level of manipulation. And, yeah, I mean, I think there was a healthy discussion to be had about free will and where we draw these lines, but right now it's also, you know these 1-800 numbers. They're also, like you know, bartenders cut you off when you're flabbering and, like you know, can't stand up straight drunk. We don't put the onus on the drinker to say I'm gonna call this 1-800 number and tell the bartender to stop serving me.

Andy Roddick: 51:54

So yeah, what's the delta between these practices in other silos, right Like the marketing and the targeted like? Could you make the argument that this is done everywhere else and it's just that betting is? You know it's going from the Wild West to mainstream, so therefore we need to pay attention to it, or is it so over the top specifically for this issue?

Jon Wertheim: 52:19

Yeah, I mean, I would say the difference too is like this is A, this is addictive behavior, B, like money's changing hands and this is like ruining families. Yeah okay, I mean yeah, like in Instagram knows plenty about me and you and Twitter's got plenty of information. The difference is, you know, seeing this feed in my silo is not causing me to take a payday advance or cash out my student loan.

Andy Roddick: 52:46

So we need to pay attention to it because the consequences are so much bigger than eating, you know, a fun pack of Skittles or something.

Andy Roddick: 52:53

Yeah watching a stupid video? Yeah, exactly, got it. Now this like to tie it back to tennis and like this could be a weird question, but I'm just gonna ask it Now. Tennis is one of the easiest sports to gamble on. Right, people who do it as a hobby, like is there a lane where you could make the argument that with kind of gambling becoming mainstream, that is it an avenue to grow the sport to new fans or do they not actually care about the sport and does that matter if tennis is at least in the trickle down effect of that waterfall?

Jon Wertheim: 53:29

Man, this is like the morality edition. We'll go back to forehands and backhands and it's certainly easier.

Jon Wertheim: 53:36

How about that Ostepeco? No, it's a great question because in some ways tennis is great gambling sport, right, they play it all over the world. You can bet on everything and not just wins and losses. You can bet on is the next serve gonna go in the net? I mean you've got a ton of inventory. It's all over the world. We're not only talking about pro events. I mean, in the 60 minute story the guy pulled up and it was the qualifier for the Charlottesville Challenger. I mean there were two guys I don't think they were ranking the top 1,000 and you could bet not just on who would win the match that's insane Well, you could bet on who would dump the next forehand. So yeah, I mean, in some ways tennis is really well positioned for gambling. There's a lot of inventory. It's all different time zones, it's men, it's women. It's a lot of things to bet at in the course of the match, right, I mean it's point by point. There's also a lot of chance for corruption and I'm not sure this is where tennis wants to do its growth. But yeah, it's something to reckon with because you know and honestly, like the ITF, the ATP, they all have data deals. Anytime you hear data deal. That basically just means we're selling our information to a bookmaker who's now setting lines. There's a lot of money to be made here.

Jon Wertheim: 54:47

My issue with tennis is that you have this corruption and again, we're all creatures of incentives, right? So if you're playing and you can win 800 bucks for winning the tournament and some guy says here's 10 grand, you don't even have to lose the match. I need you to like double fault, the second server, the third game. Yeah, I mean, if absent morality, it's easy to see how this is very corruptible. And so people say, oh, tennis has all these, it's match fixing. I don't know if you read. There was a great Washington post story. I would encourage everyone to go check out on match fixing. We're not talking about you know, we're not talking about the Wimbledon semi-finals here.

Andy Roddick: 55:23

No, that doesn't happen.

Jon Wertheim: 55:24

It's the time. Yeah, it doesn't right, and I feel like tennis needs to message this much better. Look, there might be corruption, but these are guys who are part-time players at the, you know, the Tosh Ken public high school, playing, you know, for $40, it's not. It's like saying there's steroids rampant in baseball and you say, was it the Yankees? No, is that the Dodgers? No, well, where are the steroids? Oh, it's the league in Chura Sal. Like I mean this. The corruption in tennis, not exclusively but predominantly, is happening at these Sub levels, these subcutaneous levels that people don't even know about. But it does tarnish the whole sport because the headline is Match fixing, scandal and tennis. No one. Casual readers don't realize we're about as far removed from Wimbledon as you know yeah, totally.

Andy Roddick: 56:11

Yeah, anyway and then, and just for to kind of put a button on this, like Again holding the mirror to yourself, you know I have Friends who were 70 80 in the world playing tour events in Moscow where, if you lose first round, you know and keep in mind, like Tennis players pay for their own travel, all their own expenses you don't get on the team jet, you don't have your laundry folded when you get there. Not to say woe is me, just to say it's a different operating thing than you would associate with with most sports. We're, you know, individuals making an individual decision. You know, yada, yada, yada, if you're not top hundred, you're not getting into majors. You're probably have a hard time paying off your expenses while trying to be a Professional tennis player.

Andy Roddick: 56:55

All that said, I know people personally who and I never got one of these calls. So to prove your point, it's not the players that were the top players are making a run at Wimbledon. I never got approached in my entire life or my entire career, but I have a. You know buddies who would play in Moscow and get a call from an anonymous source offering you know 20x of what the first round prize money would be. They said no, but that's like that's, that's all of a sudden the reality of what they're doing and, by the way, they're getting that offer on a match. Well, maybe they would win 35% of the time anyways. Like it's just it, I'm happy to do it. I'd be disappointed in everyone if they did it.

Andy Roddick: 57:36

But I'm just saying like to your point. Now take it from an actual tour event and go down to what you're saying. The Tashkent future and you, you are absolutely ripe For for corruption in the sport. But it is here to stay. I mean the, the network we both work for at tennis channel sponsor. I have a personal deal With that way where I don't make predictions but I give basically analysis, like I would give On our show, and people can take or do what they want with it. I like to think I can rationalize you call them incentives by by saying, well, hopefully I'll make someone a little bit smarter than when they're going about it. It's not the matches that are kind of in the underbelly. We're dealing, you know, kind of on the up and up with matches I'm pretty sure aren't gonna, you know, be be too affected by me saying Al Kharaz needs his back in cross-court. But you know, it is what it is. It's. It is here to stay. If anyone gets a chance, where can they go back and watch that segment after the fact, john?

Jon Wertheim: 58:31

It should be on Paramount plus. I don't know. Play play with the Google machine should be on YouTube. You know, this is the media world and you can find that good.

Andy Roddick: 58:42

You can find that lovely segment that we just talked about that John Wertheim put so eloquent, eloquently Try to mess up eloquently when you're saying that's kind of ironic in it, but you can find it on the Google machine, so just do that. Now we speaking of gambling. We didn't want to let this go without diving into another producer. Mike, do we have? Do we have some of these? We have some some prop bets for the Super Bowl here, john Wertheim, and it's it's of our Someone who's been in the news this week, the lovely Alice Taylor, allison Swift some some prop bets, which is which is actually another thing that I want to talk about.

Andy Roddick: 59:22

I couldn't be more impressed, not just because I'm a fan of her music and I respect what she's done as far as being a pop star, but like to do this tour and then to Make a secret album, announced it after winning album of the Unigramies and to be a government psi up, all at the same time. Who has time for this? I did a pickleball. I did pickleball commentary last night in Miami. I came in, got off the plane and have to talk to you for an hour and I'm exhausted. Who has time to be a part of the government underbelly and a psi up and be the biggest pop star on earth, all at the same time Well maintaining a new relationship. John, this is nuts.

Jon Wertheim: 59:59

Let me ask you this how are we gonna go? You know, this was story of the week, right, and we all had a good time with it. How do we look back on this? I mean, here is this this absolute superstar of superstars, you're right. I mean, I think, as prolific as it is, but it's not at the expense of quality. There's so much to admire here, oh my gosh, and yeah, but now she finds herself in the culture wars, inevitably.

Jon Wertheim: 1:00:24

You know, but like I think you know the, the Pfizer boy, for I mean, it's just a serious question. 10 years from now, when we say, you know, you have this, this, this uber star dating someone in the Super Bowl, and this somehow gets caught up in the, in the thresher, you know, in the, in the machine of culture wars. How do we process this? How are we gonna tell our kids about this?

Andy Roddick: 1:00:45

I hope we view it through the lens of. There was this massive movement that was griftable and every person who could grift off of it Chose to do it, no matter how insane the concept of it was. Like all of a sudden were against, like, like she, a capitalist who finds 18 different ways to sell you something and you're kind of, you think, someone for the pleasure. You know a blonde hair, blue-eyed pop star who started off in country, dating a Star football player that plays for a Midwestern team.

Andy Roddick: 1:01:22

Yes, and now, all of a sudden, they're part of select some agenda. For I mean, I'm like I can't. The mental gymnastics is Is exhausting, right, and at some point can we just celebrate success. Whether it's for the player that's gonna go down is the best hide in in history. Whether it's for Taylor Swift, who's gonna go down and I don't say this hyperbolically as the biggest pop star that we've ever had, you know. And so they, like, they make googly eyes and they kiss each other after a game, like who fucking cares?

Jon Wertheim: 1:01:50

right, yeah.

Andy Roddick: 1:01:51

I'm a side to everybody, I guess I don't know.

Jon Wertheim: 1:01:53

Well, I'm sure this joke's been made too, but the obvious thing to do is go root for the team from San Francisco.

Andy Roddick: 1:01:59

Oh wait, yeah, let's prove our point really day exactly. Yes, it's unbelievable. Okay, but let's have some fun Before we leave here. What will happen first? John worth I'm either team scores a touchdown at minus one ton of or a Taylor Swift live shot. What happens first?

Jon Wertheim: 1:02:17

Oh man, I think the networks have been chasing, Certainly my beloved CBS. There's so much backlash to the Taylor Swift cutaways. But yeah, that's a good question. I thought I might have to go touchdown on that one.

Andy Roddick: 1:02:31

Oh, I'll take the opposite side of that.

Jon Wertheim: 1:02:33

I'll take five from you for that, because every, every lead up it take.

Andy Roddick: 1:02:38

This is super old. This is the show. This is ratings. This is Twitter. This is like they want. They want to set everyone off like. This is just. They want it to be wildfire. We definitely get a shot of her, and rightfully so. Before the first touchdown. We're also assuming that the first touchdown is gonna happen within three minutes, like the first touchdown Could happen with three minutes to go. It won't, but it could happen with five minutes to go in the second quarter. There's no chance we don't see her, I don't think, before the first Touchdown. This is actually really important. This next one that that I'm gonna ask you about. This is this is hard-hitting stuff To go from 60 minutes to something this this deep is gonna be. I hate to take you deeper, but lipstick color minus 1500, is it? It's basically red or the field. What do you? What do we like here? It's got to be red.

Jon Wertheim: 1:03:22

I mean it's got to be Kansas City Chiefs red, right, I think so Her boyfriend played for the Vikings. I might have a. No, it's got to, got to be red like a purple. Yeah exactly.

Andy Roddick: 1:03:34

Purple might be a little too hocus pocus Maybe, but anyways, number, did I get you on that. One producer, mike. Yeah, good, I like that. Sorry, joy and love. One person in the room that actually gets the hocus pocus reference. I appreciate it. Number of times Taylor Swift is shown over under five and a half.

Jon Wertheim: 1:03:52

Oh man, okay, kind of depends on the game, right? I mean, if this is a dog shit, you know it's a blowout I'm thinking over, but I do honestly, I do think there's some. I think these networks are very sensitive to, to the excessive. I think, NBC's one that got dinged. I I'll say, I'll say over, but not by much. I'm going one or two.

Andy Roddick: 1:04:14

I'm going one gratuitous shot early, obviously after every Kelsey touchdown or catch. I think this is a great line. I'm gonna go under Um, but I think they're gonna get their money's worth early. Will she wear Kelsey's jersey during the game? Uh, no minus 200. Yes, plus 150.

Jon Wertheim: 1:04:31

Are we talking? But go back to the other ones. Are we talking about just the broadcast? Are we talking about, like, starting at new nieces turn? No, I think all the cutaway and all the okay, so we're talking to kick off.

Andy Roddick: 1:04:41

I think once we get into, like the Pregame, the anthem, the flyovers, all that, I think that's all in play.

Jon Wertheim: 1:04:47

Yeah, but that's that's where you do it right? I mean I'll cut away from her during the anthem and not all right? Um, we're overthinking this. We're over.

Andy Roddick: 1:04:54

Wait, wait before you talk about before we get cancelled really quickly. Don't talk about cutting away from the anthem to show Taylor Swift. That would just send like we like we might actually all get taken.

Jon Wertheim: 1:05:03

Yeah, that's I up. Um, okay, what what?

Andy Roddick: 1:05:06

do we got here? Is she wearing the jersey? Super Bowl 58 MVP. Is this the last one? Yeah, okay, this is it then. Then we're gonna let you go and worth times, looking at me like I cannot wait to get off of this segment Because this is the worst one that's ever been, but we're gonna go with it. Super Bowl 58 MVP to mention Taylor Swift.

Jon Wertheim: 1:05:22

No, no, they're not gonna mention Taylor Swift, no uh, even if I mean you know, just one one tight end is MVP, there's a shot, otherwise no right.

Andy Roddick: 1:05:33

No, he'll do like the little heart thing that he did after the thing.

Jon Wertheim: 1:05:35

But that's not a mention, that's not a literal mention you know, there's, there is another team playing and if they win there's zero chance, right? Uh, my guy? Yeah, I think this is.

Andy Roddick: 1:05:43

That's a no, that's I. I agree, no, I listen. But what I am happy about, john, is that we finally got To the important stuff this week, and I'm not talking about gambling and sports.

Jon Wertheim: 1:05:53

I'm not talking about the Saudis taking over Over time.

Andy Roddick: 1:05:57

Basically, we're talking about lipstick color. John, my friend, thank you for coming on again with us. Thank you for being our guest. Are we any closer to recruiting you to a full-time position?

Jon Wertheim: 1:06:05

where this becomes a habit. We're getting there more, more Taylor Swift. No, is there anything?

Andy Roddick: 1:06:11

we can do I? I put a. I put a shirtless picture of James behind me today, just to you know. I don't know if that Effects things with our negotiation of having you come on full-time.

Jon Wertheim: 1:06:20

I need you to wear red lipstick in my jersey next time.

Andy Roddick: 1:06:23

You got it done, john wartime. Thanks for your time, buddy, thanks, buddy. Thank you so much again. Uh, you're our early adopters. Um, I'm having a blast doing this. I hope you're having fun listening. Please give us feedback, respond on socials, tell us what you want.

Andy Roddick: 1:06:38

Uh, for the next episodes, I do think it is important to acknowledge our winners every week. You know, last week it was more tennis focused, with X's and O's and breakdowns coming out of the Australian Open. This week more of a macro look at some of the issues that could and will affect tennis. But props to Yelena Osta Penko winning her second Uh 500 level event of the year, not even past the first week of February. Pretty, pretty impressive. Bublick winning in Moncili yeah, this guy is uh, he's fun to watch. You never really have to wonder what he's thinking. Uh, kamikaze, kind of confusing conquer method. So good, win there. And thank you all for listening. Again, this has been a blast. Have a happy Super Bowl week, enjoy with your family. Cheer for whoever Bet on the national anthem, if you want to, I say I'm taking the over. Reba Sang it like 124, but that was like 20 years ago, so I think it's just gotten a little bit slower, everything's a little bit longer. Uh, I'm Andy Roddick. Thank you for listening to serve.