Dive into this week's episode with Andy Roddick and Jon Wertheim, where we tackle the hottest topics in tennis and beyond. We start with a quick-fire recap of weekend winners from Dallas to Abu Dhabi. Jon breaks down the buzz: a PIF investment in the ATP rankings, the intrigue of the 6 Kings Slam, and rumors of a Saudi Arabia event to start the season. The duo explores scheduling woes for top players with insights from Andy's past and a candid take on navigating coaching changes. Plus, Andy tackles the Super Bowl — the Chiefs' victory and Usher's roller-skating halftime show stealing the spotlight.
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Dive into this week's episode with Andy Roddick and Jon Wertheim, where we tackle the hottest topics in tennis and beyond. We start with a quick-fire recap of weekend winners from Dallas to Abu Dhabi. Jon breaks down the buzz: a PIF investment in the ATP rankings, the intrigue of the 6 Kings Slam, and rumors of a Saudi Arabia event to start the season. The duo explores scheduling woes for top players with insights from Andy's past and a candid take on navigating coaching changes. Plus, Andy tackles the Super Bowl — the Chiefs' victory and Usher's roller-skating halftime show stealing the spotlight.
Keep up with us on socials!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/servedpodcast/
X: https://twitter.com/Served_Podcast
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@served_podcast?_t=8jZtCnzdAnX&_r=1
Watch the Episodes on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0k_--YLuTNuDvq1Dw4zHmw
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Speaker 1:Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Served. I am Andy Roddick. A lot to get to this week. I am going to beat the drum of shooting this on a Monday. You'll hear it on Tuesday, but Monday after the Super Bowl should be a national holiday in America. Who wants to get up after that? Nobody wants to get up. Like kids are at our door at 5.45. I'm like didn't you know? I was up watching football and analyzing commercials last night. Anyways, I'm saying we don't know what's going to happen with the election this year. But if someone just came out and said my entire platform is just having the Monday after the Super Bowl be a national holiday and getting rid of daylight savings time forever, I think we might actually have something. I think that's worth like three points with independence right there, but anyways, yeah but that's my tangent.
Speaker 1:Today. We're going to have a great show today. I have huge news, guys. You want to hear it. No, you got to wait till John Wertheim comes on, because he's part of our team too and he deserves to know what's going on. We have a Saudi update. Obviously, we talked about it in episode two at length. Ongoing story feels like every week there is major news and they bought math, everyone, they bought math. So we're going to get to that. We're going to go through scheduling right this February, after the Aussie open closes, before Indian Wells in Miami and those big events. What happens? How do you schedule? Why do you schedule? What are the factors involved? Do sponsors play any factors? We're going to get into the weeds on that with John Wertheim. And coaching changes also. February not the best time to be making a coaching change. Right, you want to do all that.
Speaker 2:It'd be like rebuilding and then having to like tear your team apart again, like two years later.
Speaker 1:That's what a coaching change in February is not ideal, but Holger Runa, jess Pagula have both done it. Why I think their processes, while similar as far as content of coaching change, I think they're completely different for the various stages of their career. Let's do a little homework on the winners and losers. This week I guess there were no losers. We're all winners just for being here, guys. But Luciano Darderi, a qualifier breaking through in Cordoba, will now be ranked 76 in the world, but not someone who had played on the main tour. A bunch says, okay, I like this tour thing, I can win out here. So congrats to Higg, congrats to him, easy for me to say.
Speaker 1:Hugo Umber and Marseille winning his fifth final in five attempts when he's gotten there. So big win for him yesterday over Grigory Dimitrov. I think it goes without saying that Hugo Umber, if he was from like I don't know Missouri, his name would be Hugo Humbert, but Umber sounds better, I guess, when you're in Marseille winning at home a big deal. Elena Rabakina winning in Abu Dhabi again. So Ozzy open aside, where she lost that that breaker in the third set, that was like four days long Routes Arena Sabalenka in a in a warmup tournament in Australia, oh and three in the final. And then comes to to Abu Dhabi and Routes Kazakina in the final. Again her top level tennis. I think the delta between her really bad weeks and a really good weeks is probably more significant than like a Coco or a Sabalenka. But her top line tennis, her top line tennis is the type where she beats Sabalenka oh and three in a final before Sabalenka goes and wins the Ozzy open. So momentum building for her, she needs it.
Speaker 1:She had some big weeks in Indian Wells in Miami. So a lot of points to defend there. Tommy Paul, getting a win in Dallas, steady at 14 in the world number number two, american behind Taylor Fritz again, and also took his lumps with the rankings right, made the semis a year ago in Australia. Those points came off important for him to reestablish himself in the top 15, make sure that he is seated at these grand slams and these events coming in in Miami and Indian Wells. So good job to Tommy ball. Tommy Paul and plush give up coming back. Winning in Romania out of nowhere was down in the seventies will now be ranked top 60 again. But anyone who has that artillery of power and serve, you certainly have to take notice when she starts winning matches again as we look forward.
Speaker 1:Doha and Rotterdam the big events this week. I think the the big things are Shviatek back in, back in action. Cocoa back in action, off that loss in Australia in the semis, and in Rotterdam Center going to make his debut. How do we like playing first rounds After we become a grand slam champion? We will figure that out this week. The Yonix center is back and ready and, guys, I don't want to, I don't really want to brag too much, but we're rolling in the cash on this show. I just got to say it.
Speaker 2:I got to say it. Charlie P, Charlie M and Justin are responsible for the $13 of revenue that we made this month into the serve supporter club.
Speaker 1:And before you think that I'm asking for tips, I'm not To serve supporter club is a good cause. The Andy Roddick foundation I run a foundation for kids out of school time space or after school summer programs in my hometown of Austin Texas. So Charlie P, charlie M and Justin, thank you for the $13, guys.
Speaker 2:I think it's time to just take a moment, look around at each other and say look what we built, we did it. We did it. $13 serve supporter club. Charlie P, charlie M, justin, you're good people, you donate to charity. That's amazing. I don't know, like, what do you deduct on $13? Like, could they deduct like 50 cents? Like I think so, yeah, they could probably match it. Anyways, in all seriousness, thank you for supporting the Andy Roddick foundation and this little podcast.
Speaker 1:I also saw the most amazing athletic feat that I may have ever seen in my entire life last night, and it had nothing to do with Patrick Mahomes. You watched the Super Bowl, right? You saw the athleticism, you saw stepping up in the biggest moments. I'm not talking about Mahomes. I'm not talking about Andy Reed. I'm not talking about the Chiefs.
Speaker 2:No, not yet. Stay tuned.
Speaker 1:to close, I am going to be on one about the most amazing and clutch athletic feat that I have ever seen in my life also took place in the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2:Didn't have anything to do with football.
Speaker 1:With that, we welcome my friend, john Wortham. John, I'm not going to introduce you as our guest because, as I sit here and just think about you often, I think it's time and this is weird, but I think we should possibly take this to the next level, as we've been dating for a while on this podcast a couple of weeks. Should we just go steady? Should we do this all the time? Will you be my co-host, john?
Speaker 3:I was hoping you were going to put your promposal online and everyone could weigh in. But yeah, you think we need to go public with our relationship.
Speaker 1:Listen, I like to deal from a place of stability. I don't like unanswered questions in my relationships. I was pretty quick to the punch with Brooke. I was maybe a little bit more overzealous early on than she was. I just don't want to have two toes and I need a commitment from you, john, if you like it.
Speaker 3:You can put a ring on it. Yeah, I think we're all right, let's do this thing. It's old, I love it.
Speaker 1:So also with that news and this is for the room this will be a fun little thing. So for those listening, could you guess what that sound is? What does that sound like? To close your eyes, mike? What does that sound like? What does that sound like? I thought you were going to say like, take it out the trash. Okay, so in my hand I have the final copy of a contract proposal from our friends at Tennis Channel, john Wertheim. So, with what I am doing right now and signing and I got permission, but that is the signature we are going to shoot for a March 3 launch of this show on T2 on Sunday evening. So the March 3, I think, is the goal for our first show. If you still want to stay married or work married, if you still want to say work married there we go, yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, pure pressure.
Speaker 3:You are making me blush. This is like did you ever see Streeter and Amir's proposal video at Yankee Stadium? Look that up if you haven't. Yeah, you are putting me on the spot, but I can't guarantee what time zone I will be in, but let's do it.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, we are in. This is awesome. I don't know that anyone in the history of podcasts has figured this out early on, but I think Tennis Channel I know we both have had a great relationship with Tennis Channel over the years and I couldn't think of a better home or a better TV home for this podcast. I'm excited to kind of bring it to the TV screen and hope we don't mess it all up, john.
Speaker 3:Can I brag on you? As we say in Indiana, you are back in the top 10, sir, who's on the top 10 sports? If someone said you were among the top 10 Tennis Podcasts, I'd be like, all right, that's right. You know, roddy and I are just kind of fucking around and we'll see what we want to do here. This was a top 10 Spotify sports Super Bowl week very little promotion right out of the gate. Congrats, all seriousness, that's great for you. Congrats, man.
Speaker 1:Us, john. We're work married. We're going to work on these pronouns. Yeah, exactly yeah, we're going to meet each other's families. It's going to be amazing, it's going to be great.
Speaker 3:The fiance sounds so weird. This is like, yeah, we're going to bring this up.
Speaker 2:I have to get used to it, yeah us.
Speaker 1:That's funny. I mean, listen, the support has been amazing. I think we were nine this morning or maybe I don't know. It changes all the time, but seems to be working. Shout out to Mela Jenny. I know I already did it in the open, but Fernando, mela Jenny is apparently pumping us in Brazil and saying, like listen to this podcast and we have the number one sports podcast in Brazil. I never played a pro tournament in Brazil. This is unreal. I'm so happy I'm work, married, we have a contract producer, mike, rest of the team. This is go time. This is fun. I'm having a blast. Do it Great, let's, but now let's get down to. Now that we're done, kind of bragging about ourselves, let's get into.
Speaker 1:You tweeted something about the Saudis buying the ATP ranking system and this is a follow up. If you haven't listened to episode two of serve, please go back and listen to last week's episode. A lot of the broader strokes of that show continue to be extremely relevant. This week we did a full kind of Saudi breakdown what's the future hold, how do you take the money, what are the tradeoffs? Yada, yada, yada. A lot of the sensitivities and we tried to be kind of sober to multiple points of view on that issue. But sure enough, as soon as we ended up recording it, two hours later they announced King of the court, where they're paying everyone a bajillion dollars to come in and basically play a glorified XO. And then you tweeted something about the ranking system yesterday. What's going on with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have a you know good sources telling me there's going to be a forthcoming announcement where the PIF, the Saudi sovereign wealth fund, is going to be making this deal with the ATP and then, presumably soon thereafter, the WTA, where it's basically buying these levels of sponsorship, and one of them includes essentially buying the rights I guess you could say buying the rankings. I mean, you said last week and it's a good point, you know numbers what do you say? Information's free.
Speaker 1:I mean, I well, I'm trying to figure out, like, how you buy. I said, how do you buy math? I guess the Saudis have figured out how to even buy math. I don't. I don't understand. It's a set algorithm, like it's a set ranking system, so so it's basically just what. Every time we say the ATP rankings, we say the ATP PIF rankings, like what, what, what, what does this look like?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean in some level. Yeah, it's a sponsorship deal. It's, you know, pepper stone I'm not sure pepper stone quite punched through, I'm not entirely sure what it is. They are the current sponsors of the ranking. But you can't have a tour without a ranking system. So I think this is more than just sponsorship. And you know, I mean this is. This is either sort of right, this is how businesses invest. You do a little bit at a time and they're they're upping their, their shares, or else this is sort of a clinic and sports washing. You know, nadal comes on as an ambassador, you hold an exhibition, then you hold the next gen event, then you hold a big boy event, and this is all sort of incremental. But yeah, apparently there will be a forthcoming announcement, maybe at Indian Wells, where we learned that this Saudi investment, this is going to be a real story in tennis, men's and women's, in 2024. But there is a big announcement coming and part of it involves essentially taking over the rankings, in addition to other other sponsorship elements.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't. I still don't really understand. Like the rankings have no IP. This is basically just to like get a friend. It's just like a nice little entry into tennis, where you're all of a sudden partnering with the ATP, you're giving them some money and then that opens it up to larger conversations. I mean, it's basically what the deal is right. We're buying access.
Speaker 3:You nailed it and there are events you know Miami and Madrid are the events you hear about that might just be for sale. Well, instead of just going into making an offer, maybe you sort of worm your way in and you've got some signage and you've got this, this rankings deal, and I think this is all a calculated strategy to get into tennis. We can argue whether this is a good thing or bad thing, but it's clearly very calculated. And I think again, I think all this is in the shadow of live golf, which was basically like God damn it, we're starting a rival tour, let's try to throw buckets of money and roll up the brake trucks to Phil Mickelson, and Tiger doesn't want it. Fine, Phil Mickelson does. Great. That did not go well. This seems much more calculated and strategic.
Speaker 1:Well, they're not. They're not trying to separate any current tour as of now. This, to me, the biggest sign is like okay, we're buying the rankings. Like you're buying, you're buying math. To me, the biggest show is that they want to work at least inside of the current structure. You don't go pay the ATP a bunch of money for something that has no IP. It's literally just math. Unless you want to further that conversation towards another event, I would assume it's. Obviously the ATP has no ownership over the slams, as opposed outside of kind of being a resource tour managers. So they're familiar faces, so it's not a completely foreign experience from the week to week of the actual tour. So this is basically just a. This is a starter course.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly I mean this is, you know, this is your your class A stock and then maybe you up your equity.
Speaker 1:This is sort of this is very strategic and so, and so they're doing this and the differences live. They were going to blow up the golf universe and have succeeded in you know, various times and way shapes are formed where it's just basically we're going to go with the confusing conquer method and also we're going to make the runway so so long, with potential litigation, that eventually we're going to have to have a conversation together. This seems like a more amicable way to to get that conversation at first than, you know, threatening litigation to where live. We have the resources we can out. We can pay off our litigation longer. So therefore, why don't we just come to the table now, as opposed to three or four years from now?
Speaker 3:Exactly. I don't want to make this the Saudi tennis serve, but just keep in mind big picture. This is all about image perception branding. I'm not sure live golf did wonders for Saudis image, so this is sort of a kindler, gentler way to embed in sports without having the cluster fuck we had in golf.
Speaker 1:So I heard I talked to a I had a friend of mine call me today. He's, you know, one of the more successful agents in the last 25 years, likes the pod, and we kind of talked through a little bit of this and and he said he was happy with me talking about it today. But a lot of the conflict and why Tiley's running around is because there is a lot of chatter and I'm curious if you've heard much about it. It's rare that I actually get any news to you first, but that the fight with Tiley and the thing that's making him uneasy, and understandably so, is wanting to launch a Saudi event in that zero week of January, or that first week of January, which is is brutal.
Speaker 1:If you're, if you're Craig Tiley, he has built up the infrastructure of, of United cup and you know a mixed team event coming in and replacing kind of working with the ATP to kind of you know, take a dig at Davis cup and you know value it. You know that showed up for United cup this year. All that kind of goes away. You know, if Saudi takes that first week, then there's no other players that are going to go play the first week that can sell a ticket in a Brisbane or you know a United cup kind of goes up in flames, and so if you're Craig Tiley, you're obviously playing defense on, on, on that part of the schedule that throws kind of everything for a loop at the beginning of the year. What are your thoughts on that, and is that what you're hearing?
Speaker 3:That's exactly what I'm hearing, and that's sort of one of the reasons why he grudgingly held his nose and staged United cup, which is not a money one. This is the Aussie tennis summer, so you need some sort of run up, right. I mean, the US Open has the North American Hardcore Circuit, wimbledon has grass events, french Open has a number of play events in Western Europe. What does Australia have? Well, if everyone spends the first two weeks of January making a ton of money at an event halfway across the world and Riyadh, that's not great for the Australian open to tennis Australia. So Craig Tiley is playing defense. Hey, listen, we're going to play nice here. You're going to let me keep my January, but I will be sure you get your event.
Speaker 3:Maybe we do it in February when there's there's Doha in Dubai. I mean, one thing that's interesting is if you're Doha in Dubai, you're like look, I didn't know I could upgrade, I'm, I'll match, I have endless resources as well and I've been a loyal ATP member for all these years. How come you're giving the Saudis the big event? I would have opened the suitcases myself. So putting this Saudi event after the Australian open makes a lot of sense. It makes sense if you're Craig Tiley. I don't think the folks in Doha and Dubai would be particularly pleased by that man we're really getting. This is very in the weeds, but I do think this is a big story.
Speaker 1:Right, it's a. It's a huge story. I mean, you're, you're basically taking away a very valuable piece from someone who, in tennis, has generally been considered an innovator, peaks around the corners, has been a pretty good partner. You know, it is as expanded, the Australian open has improved it nonstop. And then all of a sudden you're taking this and, you know, dangling this thing. That would be devastating for the Aussie summer lead in. But the other part of this, if I'm pitching the players and I'm like this is a bad idea, and let me tell you why. Okay, cause I could probably, you know, pitch it. Listen, you know I could be on the other side of him pitch it really well and just say, hey, money, who's against it? Like you know, if it's going to happen anyways, let's at least max out value, all we have leverage. But what's the number one thing we hurt? We hear consistently complained about for the last 30 years from the top players on tour who are essentially your money makers. Right, they're the ones selling night sessions, they're the ones that they are the most important figures in your game. What do we hear nonstop? If they could make one change, what would it be? Schedule schedule, schedule schedule schedule schedule.
Speaker 1:So let's put this into a hypothetical right Either January I don't know what the day, january 3rd, whatever the first Monday of January is for 2025. I don't know if it's 10 day event, but leave it alone, let's just call it a one week event. For now that's scheduled and you can't miss a master's 1000. So we, on the heels of sinners, win in Australia. We're like, oh man, you know our Medvedev playing in the final. We're like, oh man, I liked. I was personally someone who liked getting a tournament in, like at least getting some tournament matches in before going into Australia. Right, I didn't like kind of going in flying blind. So let's take a peek at this Center plays through the first week of December for Davis Cup, which follows World Tour finals, which is also kind of gotten later and later and later.
Speaker 1:When I played it it was early November. Now it's late November, so everyone's kind of pinching it on all sides. This deal would make scheduling for the off season and absolute nightmare for the top players. You're going to have to pull out of something you cannot play till December 7th and then turn around and leave your home to go to another event on December 25th, which is the responsible date that you would have to leave. There is no time for training. There's going to be an uptick in injuries. You have to kind of set your body and I want to get into kind of a macro conversation about how someone goes about scheduling. But this throws a schedule. This is a nightmare for especially people the top players that end up playing another three weeks longer than the normal tour.
Speaker 3:First you said December 25th, which I think you're right, and I think that actually is the date that I know Nadal left for Australia on that date. I mean, how crazy is it? Not only is this sport nonstop and you're playing till three in the morning and it's an 11 and a half month season, but you're asking players to leave to start the next year on Christmas day. I mean, just step back and we should ponder how absurd that is. And yeah, I think you're totally right. I mean you could say well, we're going to charter jets and we're going to have those sweet, you know those Emirates flights with the apartments where you get a shower in your cabin. You know what it's still travel, I think, a shower in my cabin, it doesn't change the calendar Exactly, or my jet lag, yeah, does it sound more appealing to you to put that big Saudi event in February between Australia and Indian Wells?
Speaker 3:Does that sound more palatable to you? None of it really sounds.
Speaker 1:I mean, then you're automatically eating the lunch of Rotterdam Rio. I mean, you're basically you don't put a thousand in the middle of a jammed calendar where there's consensus that there are no weeks that are convenient for any growth, right, especially for the biggest events that are mandatory. You can throw in a 250 here. Then it's a choice. Like you mentioned, rafa leaving on the 25th of December, but also that's different. Listen, he hadn't played forever. He hadn't played Australia the year before, like, so he had been off the entire time. Not as extreme as someone who kind of burned it to the end. The eight singles players at World Tour Finals, and then all of a sudden you're going to turn them around three weeks later and have a match, and then you're. And then all of a sudden you're going to turn them around three weeks later and have a master's 1000 to start the year. That's impossible, like you can't. That is so incredibly short-sighted. So my player hat says listen, yeah, let's at least be responsible. And also, if you are the ATP and they've obviously said oh hey, listen, we're open for business because we've sold the ATP rankings, like if your first foray into actual schedule making with this new entity, that is controversial, but more and more every week that passes feels inevitable and our first kind of handshake to the tour is listen, we're going to create a massive scheduling pain in the ass, like I think you're going to.
Speaker 1:I think that's counterproductive. I know money is money, but also I think February is better. There's a lot of action. The women are going there this week. I know a lot have already left. Now you are getting into the. You know well, why isn't it us then? We've been partners in this part of the world with both tours for many years and it sounds like you have a little bit of a bidding war and it's going to get interesting because I think that will create some fireworks. I mean, it's a good position. There's certainly leverage, but if I'm Craig Talley, I completely understand the defense of January leading into the Australia.
Speaker 3:No, I don't think this is because Craig Talley's thrilled to start cutting deals with the Saudis. I think this is a defensive maneuver. I keep thinking this is a great business school case study. Right, it's all about leverage and incentives, and at what price.
Speaker 3:And again, what I heard from players is Craig Talley essentially said 14 events. You're going to be playing these events anyway and you could double or triple your income. And keep in mind you know you were in this role when you're 22 years old and you have an agent who's compensated in some level based on a percentage of your income. You're 22 years old and someone says listen, same number of events you played last year and you're going to make 3X. That might sound appealing and you can power through your jet lag, but no, I mean, this is you know you and I have gone pretty granular here, but I do think scheduling is a huge issue and I think this also kind of is a good window. This is a good glimpse into sort of the challenges that tennis has and some of the challenges that, institutionally, the tours and the players themselves all have to confront.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just a quick example. I won't spend much time on this at all. I organized a meeting in 2007 in Australia. There was some, you know, upheaval about the schedule and some players were publicly, you know, coming out against the scheduling and you know it seemed to be kind of a big deal. So I said, listen, I know this is a packed week, it was the Monday before Australia, the Wednesday before or something like that, and so it wasn't the top 20 players, but it was the top 20. And it was just my opinion, but you know, so I'm sure I messed some of it up.
Speaker 1:But most important people in the game, so rankings combined with markets, right Like I remember one of the people in that room then was Peridon Trisha fan, which was he was massive in Thailand, right In the first, you know, huge in the Asian market, and so he needed to be in that room. I forget whether his ranking was top 20 or not in that and then kind of all the usual suspects and I said, okay, listen, we're complaining about schedule. This is X, Y and Z. What has to happen. We don't like this, we don't like this, we don't like this, we don't like this. Some sacrifices are going to be have to be made. I'll look at someone who you know has success at the French Open. I said are you willing to not play in the French Open? And then all our problems are solved. Well, I can't do that. Next person, would you be willing to, all the while knowing that the obvious place to cause a fuss would be the US Open, because you need the four months afterward to negotiate anything that you want to do? You can't do that between the French Open and Wimbledon. But, to make the point, you know there's been a bet in division with personal preferences for a while and also with conflicts of interest, right? So the two biggest players in that room at that time were represented by the same agency who also negotiated, or negotiate, the TV rights for Wimbledon. So I'm going okay. So they're out on some level, right? So like you're playing with kind of a fractured hand, you feel like you're playing a game of poker where you get to see one card. You know so, but these are the kind of the interlangs of it's not just as simple with.
Speaker 1:I'm going to make my first Twitter fingers reference for the week was saying well, they should just put it there. It doesn't work like that. There's a million different, different, you know, balls in the court. No pun intended, Tennis humor is the best but it is a nightmare. And the other thing is like scheduling. Conversation producer Mike led us into this but he said like listen, it's February. There's like this weird space between the Aussie Open and where mainstream tennis fans kind of maybe reset for the tennis season with Indian Wells which goes into Miami and kind of takes in that full month and kind of the process with with scheduling, which the Saudi thing would make it even tougher to deal with, February into the other parts of it. But scheduling in tennis is tough enough as it is. If you could wave your magic wand, what do you do to actually like affect it in a positive way?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's really tough and I'm curious. I mean, that's, that's the issue, right there, right, there is no magic wand. And for Yonik center plays, you know, seven matches and 20, whatever sets he's exhausted. Guys that lose early in Australia are like oh man, I need to get matches. Naomi Osaka, oh, I'm gonna go to the Middle East. Why I need to get in matches? So one of the issues is this isn't the NBA, this isn't the NFL, where Sunday we're playing, you know, in Dallas and the next Sunday we're playing in Indianapolis. Different players have different needs and those even change during a season. Right, I'm curious how you approach matches, because you know you, you can get through a major and you could be exhausted. You can also lose the first Monday and you can't wait to get back on the court. I don't know how much sort of what were your guardrails? How much flexibility did you build into your schedule? Because it strikes me, it's not just different player to player, but it's different circumstance to circumstance.
Speaker 1:Well it's. It's also different when you're looking at the macro view of an entire year, which I'll run through first and then I'll tell you kind of the inner workings. Uh, I'm writing as I go here so I don't miss any part of this but, um, yeah, so for me it's it's like listen I, I will land in Australia and I will be, you know, normally in my career as one of the top five, you know, favorites to to do well, in that event, right, like I could, I know I could make a move. I made the semis, you know, four or five times somewhere around there, a bunch, right. So I was always in it and I knew I could compete in Brisbane.
Speaker 1:And so, uh, I wanted to basically be in shape, injury free, whatever work I do, in November, december, I want my body to hold up through at least the end of Miami, right? So that's like the first bucket. You know how do we do as much as we can to start off well and then have my body, you know, be able to take the punishment of, of travel of other weeks, uh, through Miami. And then I would schedule in another three week training block to kind of get ready for the clay. But in my mind, more importantly, making sure that I am locked and loaded to try to win Wimbledon. Right, I had a seven foot ceiling at Roland Garros and knew that I had a chance to win Wimbledon most years. Uh, that that I went in, and so that dictated uh kind of working backwards. Simple enough, uh, simple enough in theory. But I also had a sponsor, uh, sap, who was a great partner of mine for a long time, but they owned the event in San Jose. So I was going to play San Jose. And then the next one is like okay, there's five hundreds in. Uh, I forget where it was. I think it was Rio. Uh, rotterdam was there, but ours used to be in Memphis.
Speaker 1:So I was like, yeah, obviously, I'd you know, and also people understand, there's like mandatory events that we had to play. I'm not sure what the mandatory events are, as we currently sit here, but, uh, there was a decision made at one point that you could only play, uh, you could only count results. We went from best 18 where it was like 13, with the super nines in the grand slams and then any other five that you wanted to count. They signed a TV deal for the 500. So therefore they had to strengthen those events. So they said you could only count two, two, fifties, right, and I saw this. I'm like, well, they just killed, they just shot themselves in the foot. It's over. Like they're not going to get, I go. Indy's gone, like Indianapolis is gone. All these other events are really, really going to struggle. La is going to struggle, and I'll tell you why.
Speaker 1:So I go down to Brisbane. I win the first 250 of the year. Uh, I make the finals of San Jose. So for the rest of the year, in order for me to make a single point in a 250 event, from the second week of February on, I had to win the entire tournament. Now, what does that do to the small market tournaments that are trying to get me for the summer, especially in an American market? It means they're going to come with it and I'm basically saying I'm going to spend a week in my life for no rankings benefit. What is that worth to me? And the number comes in a lot higher than it would, as far as an appearance, be. Then if I could actually count that and negotiate that 250 into my other five, okay. So then they Memphis same with 500s. I had to play four of them.
Speaker 1:So Memphis was locked in, like I wasn't going to go travel, you know, off of Australia, off of San Jose, go to, uh, you know, rotterdam, dubai went to Dubai one year after Memphis and that was, that was enough. But all of these little things, whether it's a sponsor engagement, whether it's surface, I wasn't going to go play on clay in February and then switch back to hard. That was going to do me no favors on any level. But it is a huge, huge issue and it actually doesn't allow for a lot of flexibility, especially for someone like an Osaka, who has sponsors, who has obligations, who has to do these things. Where you think it's a dead week, uh, or a dead month in February, she's obviously going to play, but if she's one in the world, like she was, she's going to have to schedule things at certain points, and February looks like a good, good month to do that, because you can go training in LA and you can go knock out a bunch of things.
Speaker 1:So this match macro scheduling conversation is is is massive, right, even if you go to uh, fast forward uh, through the clay court season, of which I'm like, okay, if I'm going to play, you know, if I'm going to try to win 60 or 70 matches this year, how many of those are going to happen on clay? And how do I max out? Uh, you know, for ranking, for everything else it ain't going to be. Uh, in Monte Carlo, that's not where I'm going to. You know, get the most, the most squeeze uh, you know when I am doing it. And so I took, I played a lot less on clay and, you know, wanted to make sure I was ready to go. My favorite day of the year, I always say, was the train ride from Paris where I was like four from where, when I was 40th in the world on clay. And then all of a sudden I go underwater under the come up in London and all of a sudden I'm two or three in the world again.
Speaker 3:That's a great line. Uh yeah, yeah, you know. The flip side to all this is, in the NBA you get fined for resting your starters, right? If you say you know what? I'm on the Dallas Cowboys, I don't really like Jacksonville. I think I'm going to stay home and you know, I got a new girlfriend. I think I'm going to write that out. I mean, at some level it's empowering for the players that they can make these decisions. These are contractors that can do what they want and if they want to take some time off, they can take it off If they want us. For no reason, they don't do explain, they don't need an excused absence. Um, you know, if we're making players play, it makes things more streamlined, but at some level that that comes at a price as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was about to say what's the main difference between them saying you have to have a mandatory amount of games I think it's 65 to qualify for MVP Lamello Lamello ball here in Charlotte. My son is a Hornets fan, One of the few.
Speaker 3:He's the one.
Speaker 1:He's the one. I, I, yeah, I, I am too, and we don't know who's sitting out because there's a trade deadline around the week. Lamello came back and played six games. He's sitting again and you know, I appreciate you saying there's, like this, freedom of choice for tennis players, but there's also the freedom of $252 million deal for Lamello ball and he's sitting out. So, uh, not quite the same. I would get up a lot of uh, I would give up the choice to go to Rotterdam or Rio for $250 million. I, I, I can assure you in most of the tour would as well. I don't think that's quite apples to apple.
Speaker 3:Well, don't even put a dollar amount on, just a guaranteed contract. So if I, if I twist my ankle, I don't have to worry about missing checks that week. Um, anyway it's. Uh, these are all the frustrations, but also kind of the realities of an individual sport, I guess.
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Speaker 3:What do you make of?
Speaker 1:that.
Speaker 1:You want to actually be in the. To me it feels like um, you never look at someone splitting right after Australia and say, oh, this is, this is going according to plan. No one makes. No one makes a choice in the off season to only work with someone for one month and then switch everything up, uh, kind of after the first month of the season. Uh, this is not something that is is working. At that point Someone wants out. You feel like it should have been addressed in the off season. It's a tough lesson learned, uh, if you are learning it and making that rash of a decision this early in the season. Uh, after one slam.
Speaker 3:So let's, let's, let's keep going with that and we can. We can talk about the specific coaching changes in a second, but if we're going to keep with this theme of a team sports versus individual sports, right, I mean, yeah, yannis may or may not like his coach, but he doesn't have to worry about uh breaking the news and saying you know, I think uh time time for me to fly. What is it? What is it like? You went through this a number of times. What is it like as the player who is younger, who traditionally is, you hire this person at some level as an authority figure, yet you're the one that's ultimately the employer. What's it like being 21, 22, 23 years old and saying I think we need to talk, it's not working out. How does that even work?
Speaker 1:It's, it's, it's horrible.
Speaker 1:First off, it's, it's. It's terrible. Um, and I've had to do it at numerous times and some sometimes I wasn't worried about the conversation. Um, you know Dean Goldfein who worked. We worked together 15 months Um, I knew that was going to be a conversation where we were going to have a lifetime of friendship afterwards, no matter what happened.
Speaker 1:Right, I knew that it was going to stink. I knew that you're breaking someone's heart. You know that they want to be with you. You know, and also, as players like and I said this in my hall of fame speech as I kind of had some space from the game you realize people are with you, but you don't fully understand leaving a family until you have one right, and so to kind of give months and months of months of an adult life away from your kids for this goal of some other person winning tennis matches is is a crazy thing that I certainly I appreciated while I was playing and always gave it, um, the respect I thought it deserved, all the while, without fully understanding what, what, what all was in place. So we'll use that as like a base set.
Speaker 1:Different, different, the different times have been different things, um, and I got dumped once too. So, uh, but the hardest conversation I think, uh, one of the hardest conversations I've ever had in my life was with Tariq Benhabilis, who basically took me from um 17 year old junior who was, uh, you know, 40 in the world, losing first round at junior US Open, lived up the street. A friend of mine started working with them and he said you got in, I decided I was going to switch coaches. Tariq came on and I was a kid, I had no pro, I wasn't a pro at the time, had no pro ranking. And from October of 1999, you fast forward, uh, you know, 2001 March, in Miami, I've, I'm beating Pete and went to tour events. So we're talking like a six. You know, an 18 month run where you become the known one junior in the world. You turn pro, uh, you win a bunch of stuff, went to junior slams, win a bunch of challengers, get your ranking up, beat Pete Samper's to make the quarter finals of Miami. And then went to tour events, uh, in April, on the Trot on clay, right, what a what, what a run, right. And then you go through the next two years, um, but when, once, that relationship shifted a little bit from like he's almost like a father figure and I'm a kid to now. We're both pros.
Speaker 1:I'm six in the world, lose first round of the French open and I'm going okay. Do I need a different voice? And one of the hardest conversations I've ever had was I was in London cause, uh, an ex-girlfriend of mine was working there. I left after Paris and I was just thinking for a couple of days and I'm like I have to get back on a train to go have this conversation with with Tariq and uh in in person in Paris. And so I go back, I get off the train, we meet right outside of the gates at Roland Garros.
Speaker 1:It's like a week later I had lost first round to Sargeesian, sargeesian and uh, it was, it was horrible. I, I, I literally watched myself in real time. I could see myself breaking his heart through his face, like, and it was, it was, it was just horrible, um, and at that point I didn't know what was going to happen next. It wasn't as if I had calculated, um, you know, uh, a succession plan. So after that I called Brad, um, and you know he comes over with a bunch of energy and it was, it was, it was such a great fit, but that was a horrible conversation.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, making the decision with Brad after a lot of success, was, was, was, was. It was a hard conversation. Um, you know, it gets easier, I think, as you become a little bit more of an adult. Um, maybe not having it be a surprise for someone like actually learning how to talk about the issues in real time to where it doesn't just blow up, uh, at some point. That's probably a regret. Um of mine, from kind of those early days is listen, we, it's good, it's good, it's good it's over, as opposed to it's good, it's good, it's good. Um, maybe we should talk about some things. Let's get it back on the upward trajectory and actually giving, uh, giving that lifeline to the relationship. Um, but it's horrible and it's not something that people in other sports have to deal with. You're in control of your team. You're destiny. You're paying someone else to tell you what to do out of your own pocket. It's a, it's a weird dynamic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no. And you go, uh, you know, managers go to the HR department and they're giving a list of talking points. You're 21 years old and you've got to make this fairly significant decision. You don't have the, you know, you don't have the training and how to how to let someone down. I'm not curious. I mean, let's let's be clear too. Tariq was your neighbor, but this was not. This was a proper player, right? This was a guy who played professional tennis.
Speaker 1:Oh, Tariq, was was a hitting ball.
Speaker 3:Oh God no.
Speaker 1:That's but, but I wonder that's. Yeah, that's really important context. He was 37 in the world in a you know one junior slams, 37 in the world in singles, top you know low twenties and doubles. And he did that from about five foot eight, right Like Uber talented. You know, if he was six foot four, he would have been number one in the world with the way that he was able to play. Okay, but wait, wait, wait, wait. Unbelievable talent. Unbelievable talent player coach.
Speaker 3:Okay, but but so. So let's keep going with that Cause. I think this is really interesting too. You're, you're a teenager, this guy's been a top 40 player, he knows all these played the French open. But then eventually does it happen where you're, you know? Then you're in the top 10 and you're thinking yourself this this guy didn't get to 10. This guy doesn't know the pressure of playing a major quarter final. You know, when you start out, it's really impressive to have someone who's been a proper pro. But do you ever get to a point where you're thinking like this guy's never been in my shoes, okay.
Speaker 1:So I want to separate two things. I don't know that I ever thought that specifically about Tariq Tariq. It was almost like I think he was only guilty of caring too much about me, right. I feel like instead of watching his pupil play a tennis match or his you know student play a tennis match, he viewed me as like a family member playing a tennis match, right Like to, where he was so emotionally invested that it had this whole other set of pressures, right, and I think he was. You know he would be devastated for days afterwards, you know, if something bad happened, which is a hard thing to do because, like you, got to kind of get back to work, and so I think he's only guilty of giving me all of the pieces I needed to have physically to be a professional tennis player. And then at some point it was a stress point for me to lose, not for myself, but because I knew it would devastate him, and I'm actually thinking about that on court in real time. So he, nothing wrong, you know, only the best. Just at a certain point I had to take that emotional set out of it a little bit.
Speaker 1:But as you go on, I like the question you asked and it's something I've kind of talked about the last couple of weeks, also in some other conversations is, you know, all of a sudden, when I'm looking for a coach in 06, when I bring on Jimmy, or with Jimmy Connors, or before I hired my last coach, larry, in the off season in 08, you know I'm looking at it and I'm going okay, I can't hire a 28 year old coach. Like I can't hire someone who has never seen this or done this before. Their tennis IQ might be higher than mine, but it's how I receive the information. Jimmy hadn't been around the tour in 15 years, but, to your point, I knew that when I was teeing off first round Arthur S JDM under the lights US Open, he knew exactly what I was feeling when I walked out there. So you hire a coach for a year for those five matches where it's like I get it.
Speaker 1:You look up and he's going come. You know he feels it, he knows it. He's giving you some advice on when to use the crowd and ash. You know when to stay silent. Don't bring him in unless you need it. You know all of these little bits of advice and you know that's something that you need at that moment. I don't need someone to kind of tell me what I already know. So at a certain point the audience for feedback becomes a lot smaller. The better you get, did you also?
Speaker 3:I got to double back here. Did I miss here? Did you say you got dumped once?
Speaker 1:I did by Jimmy, yeah, yeah, but it was. It was great. I mean, we had an unbelievable run. It was no, we're friends to this day. It was great.
Speaker 1:But it was kind of like a. You know, I was, my life, existed in New York and the East Coast at that time and he was on the West Coast and it was a little more difficult. But Jimmy was the man. I mean it literally went when it kind of passed to where I couldn't really hit a forehand anymore with shoulder issues. He actually taught me how to move, how to actually hit a backhand for the first time in my life, how to return off that side, and so we were able to kind of retrofit a game that was largely imperfect and learn how to come forward. And it was just, it was. You know, some of the fondest memories I have are inside of that 18 months. Also, just kind of. It was just kind of fun because, like the age divide, if you walked into a restaurant and most of the patrons at that moment were over 50. They looked at Jimmy like he was Justin Bieber walking into, like a high school, and then if it was a younger crowd, they wouldn't, they would look right past him and it was.
Speaker 1:It was like hilarious to me how, how obvious it was, but it was. It was also fun because he had a. Not having a hip replacement is not fun, but him having a middle hip was hilarious because every time he tried to walk through security it was like it's, it's, it's his first laugh all over again and I was like we'll see at the gate.
Speaker 3:That's those are like two SNL skits in one. One of them is actually should we go to David Buster's or should we go to like the early bridge special, and you'll see who gets mobbed and who can like have their meal in peace. And then I, I I do think should we dwell or at least at least touch on the two. You know the two coaching changes already six weeks into the season. I thought it was interesting. We're talking about just Pagula on the women's side and whole Garuna on the men's side.
Speaker 3:What's interesting to me is these are just two very different players, very different stages of their career. These are two players who run their careers very differently, but both of them for whatever reason. You know, in the case of just Pagula, this was a longstanding relationship with David Witt, a former pro. In the case of whole Garuna, god knows what's going on in that camp. I said, whatever Denmark sort of seasonal unemployment figures are, he's responsible for about 20% of the churn in the job market. But I thought it was interesting that you have two very, very different players at different stages of their career and yet they both reached this conclusion really early in the season that it was time to. You know, like the Milwaukee Bucks and it was it was it was time to hear some new voices and shake things up, which which just goes to show that there's. You know this. This is a delicate relationship, isn't it? This, this player, coach, and it may be early February, but if it's not working, you got to do something about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's, and especially, like I mean, runa is the player, he's top 10 in the world, he's working with Becker and you want that expertise, especially what I just talked about with Jimmy in that voice in the room. But also it takes away the yes man, you know kind of mentality of that relationship. Right, you're not going to tell Becker, hey, we'll get out of here, I'll see you in two weeks, and he goes no, no, no, no, no. So like you get a quick read on the way that things are actually going to go down when someone doesn't need you as much, or at least they don't, they know they've forgotten more than you, you know, which is largely the case. So with Runa it just feels like it's up in in unorganized.
Speaker 1:And Severin Luthe too, like we're talking about. The focus is going to be on on Boris, obviously because the player. But Severin was Roger's guy for forever. Even if Roger brought in someone like an Edberg or an Anacone, severin was there day in, day out, training weeks, all the time, was able to witness greatness in motion. And he goes right after Australia and then which Holger lost second round, and then Becker goes a week later. They kind of gave the same talking points, as in their exit interview. I don't know what he does from here, I don't know who he's interviewing, but also, if you're a great coach right now and you're entertaining this, that has to be factored in right. The fact that he's had, you know, three different coaches, or four different coaches in four or five months, is it tells you like there's something that's difficult behind the scenes and maybe we should give him the benefit of doubt. But optically, on the front side of this, it seems like. It seems like a bit of a mess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, would you like? To date John Krueger Mellon camp. The track record kind of speaks for itself. I will tell you one thing I don't know if you get the ATP, the letter, the emails that go out to the players, but they've started a section of available coaches, so the emails that the players get now essentially have it's like the old, it's like Craigslist. It's smart, yeah, it's smart. It's a good, it's a nice service.
Speaker 3:But, you know, the tour seems to be taking a more active role in playing matchmaker. It's a weird, I mean I just think this whole thing in tennis it's a weird, weird dynamic where the 20 year old kid is the employer, essentially, but he's also, you know, we think about player coach as mentor, mentee, and yet in the case of tennis, it's the 20 year old who's ultimately got the purse strings and got the right to hire and fire.
Speaker 1:And it's also just. There's so many factors that go into it, like geography and listen, you might be great on court and you might not be able to do 200 dinners a year with the person. I mean you literally like with Doug Sprein, who is my trainer, my PT, my body guy. When I was traveling we estimated that we had dinner together 250 times a year for a decade. You have to. You get annoyed by people very quickly and you could take a night off and it's fine, but you still have to see them all the time. So there are layers to this.
Speaker 1:It's not like a pro sports team where you know Belichick wasn't having dinner with his players five nights a week. Like it doesn't. It doesn't work that way. That's not. That's not what happens. And so the layering. I actually like what you said about the ATP listing coaches, because we were trying to think of them off the top. Like you know, an idea creates another idea creates another idea. So I actually like that part of it. I think the the runa thing. I can't figure out the timing of it, bringing in both at the same time, like it was. It just seems like a master.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll tell you one thing real quick and then we can move on. And one thing that you used to always hear sort of like well, I really like Andy, but it's what you said. I'm married, I have kids. I don't want to miss birthdays, I can only do 12 weeks. What I hear now that goes into a lot of this decision making is can they get along with other members in the camp? And you know it is a rare player now that doesn't have an entourage. So you may love the player, but if you're not so keen on the mental coach or the physio or there's some weird boundary issues, I mean there's, you know. There's a player on the women's tour in particular where apparently everyone has a really, really rigid role and the coach is not allowed to talk about the mental side.
Speaker 3:I think there's a whole sort of yeah but there's a whole like workplace dynamic now where it used to just kind of be logistics and I don't want to have to, I'll go to us, you know, like Tony Nadal would never go to Indian Wells, and so they bring in friends. I mean, now I think it's gotten a lot more complicated because you really have sort of a workplace and but you know I don't want to sit by Dwight Schrute like you have a whole workplace environment that goes into the like that one.
Speaker 3:No, but it's like these. These teams really complicate dynamics, and I think that's something that I hear when people are thinking about coaching jobs. They may love the player, but the whole sort of organizational setup may give them pause. Anyway, just just just an aside.
Speaker 1:You said all of that and what I took out of it was a visual of Jim putting Dwight Stapler and Jellop. That's where that's. That's that's where my head went now. And also, like, at different, at different times, you need different things. Like I didn't need the first two years on tour, I needed to tweak it every practice. You're still learning the game. You're still learning how to practice. You're still learning the cadence of off weeks. You're still learning you know a million things.
Speaker 1:I needed a coach there every single day for those the first three years that we worked together, whereas when I hired Larry's to thank you, I didn't need to be babysat. I was going to do my track work. I was going to be at the track at 7.15 every morning. I was going to be there for three hours. I was going to have lunch. I was going to get in two on ones in the afternoon. He could come in. Listen, let's, let's, let's get through what I need to work. Let's make sure I understand the concepts.
Speaker 1:But I needed him more at events for strategizing, for a lot of stuff like that. I didn't need someone to babysit me to make sure that I was going to show up to practice, whereas, you know, 10 years earlier I probably did. You know, frankly, I needed to make good decisions. So it does, it does change. It does change over time and the runa thing feels it's just like a. I say that because it's a very different situation than, in my view, than the Jess Pagula situation. Coming off of an uber successful run with David Witt being 29, 30 years old, it just it doesn't feel like the same thing as Runa, where we have kind of repeated stops and starts as far as this decision goes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, I mean, I think that's one thing that made it interesting to me, that different players have different motivations and there isn't one sort of template for oh, it's time for a coaching change, that you couldn't find two more different players in every sense, whether it's parental involvement, whether it's age of Jesse's married, I mean, but they both reached the same conclusion very early in the season, which, which was interesting to me- and they both have the goal right.
Speaker 1:They're both players that envision themselves as someone who could win a slam, I think, in in. In Jess's case it's probably more of like, hey, listen, if I'm 29 or 30, and there's information out there that I haven't been privy to yet, you know, I might need to go explore that now, because two years from now that might not be the case. I do want to give David Witt and Jesse some some props. Right, she, she wasn't one that at 18 years old, was 20 in the world. Right, she took her lumps in the, in the, in the lower tours. That relationship, even if it's run its course, right, or it has run its course, going from outside the top 100 to being a player who was three in the world and who routinely or regularly wins, wins, tour events, and all of a sudden we're talking about hey, listen, can she make the finals of a slam? And they I assume they both would have taken this set of results when they started four years ago. So the rear view should be kind to that relationship. I think let's let's talk.
Speaker 3:I agree 100%. Let's let's talk. Not rear view, let's talk front view. Can I? Can I put you on the spot there there is, there is chatter. There's chatter you may be expanding your consultancy beyond just Coco Goff, as we talked about last time?
Speaker 1:I have no consultancy deal with with with Coco Goff. I'm a phone call away. If, if we need to pick a brain about, about anything, and also I need to premise everything or preface everything that that I'm going to say right now with. I'm never, ever, ever going to be the one who talks first about any conversations that I have with a given player. It was spoken about on tennis channel last week, not by me, but I've talked with Jess it's, I think I'm.
Speaker 1:You know we talk about how, when you get better, the amount of people that can give feedback and understand your situation becomes narrower. I know that she's talked to Lindsay, lindsay, lindsay Davenport. Lindsay said, hey, maybe you should talk to Andy, and so I've gone through this, this. We talked zero seconds about why her and Whit broke up. It's not a concern of mine, it's not my business, frankly. So I don't know. But just kind of talking through it and trying to put you know at least some words to what's next.
Speaker 1:What are you looking for? How are you going to navigate the next you know month of your career when it is a little bit more up in the air? What are you curious about improving? I think all I did with Jess and all I have done, and hopefully will continue to do, is just ask questions that she knows the answers to already, right. I don't think she needs anyone to dictate to her what needs to happen right now.
Speaker 1:She's three in the world, or four in the world right now, so I think she's excited about being curious about different parts of her game. You know, I think she's taken advantage of different voices while she's been off with specific parts of her game. You know. But it's been fun for me because I'm just a tennis nerd, so learning what someone else is looking for at the top level and kind of just giving your two cents and I said, listen, just because it's my opinion doesn't mean it's right, but hopefully it gives some to think about. And so we hit a couple of times last week just to kind of get to know a little bit better. And you know, I think all I am is a reference. It's just incredibly fun for me to have a vested interest and to say what I know. But more importantly, I can tell people what I got wrong along the way and hopefully that's a time saver.
Speaker 3:Wait, this is the journalist in me and not the podcasting partner. So she came to you again. She came in North Carolina and you guys hit some balls. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, I was. I was in. I went down for the pickleball deal and she lives down in South Florida. So I arrived one night we had an evening hit, snuck it in before the dark, played a little bit the next morning Nothing intense, it was there. They weren't like we were knocked down, drag out sessions. I think it was just a more bouncing back and forth of ideas. But I just think she's awesome. You know, I just I just, you know, I've talked to Coco and gotten to know her. She's amazing. I talked to Jess. I've got to know her. She's amazing.
Speaker 1:It just it's just, it's just really fun to kind of wrap tennis on a high level. And frankly, I'm humbled that, you know, anyone would care to even have my opinion in the conversation. But I see good things ahead for Jess. I think it's probably going to be a little bit weird, you know, for the next couple weeks, but I think she's doing a good job of being honest about what she wants, about being honest about what she needs.
Speaker 1:And I also said Listen, don't over, don't go the other way, completely from from from David. I don't know that, I don't want to know what happened, but obviously it was something to cause a break. But that was a really successful relationship. If you can kind of pull out the parts that relationship that I've worked for the last four years and then find another voice that can maybe change the energy a little bit, I go but don't like over, you know, don't over adjust off of that successful relationship. I think that you know, give, given the amount of time and I think they'd probably even say today that was, that was an amazing batch of years and work for, for David with and just begulla yeah, exactly, I mean like any relationship, right.
Speaker 3:I mean sometimes things just things go a little stale and you need to hear a new voice, and it doesn't mean there was any nefarious activity or any blow up or anything. I mean I think you know it's a professional relationship and like relationships personal and professional sometimes you just time time for something new, that's all. No harm, no foul.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been. Also, it's like in the weird, in the fallout of some of the stuff you know, being able to wrap with with Brad and be you know about what we're going to do with Coco. I'm like that's really fun for me to hear his perspective on things and to kind of have that inside view Again, not hearing it from him all the time, but, you know, in bits and moments and hearing his take on things. I get smarter because of those conversations. Same with Lindsay, when we're talking about you know Jess and you know her saying, hey, what do you think? And I'm going oh, that's cool, like what, give me the rundown, I love it, I love it. It's so much fun. It's, you know it's. It's great for me.
Speaker 1:I love tennis now as much as I have in the 12 years that you know I stopped playing. It's just so much fun for me right now and now. This and everything else. It's like I never fell out of love. I just maybe broke up with someone and I'm fully back in love again. It's just, it's just been so much fun and so so much happening and it's all it's all really exciting, john worth, I'm awesome.
Speaker 3:I like hearing that, like being part of that and the sport. You figure it out to where you can do this and you don't have to. You wake up in your own bed, you know you're back in the mix and you don't have to worry about the Marriott. You know checkout times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was. It was. It's weird and I want to say this the right way, because I know it's it could be like a lot of things we say could could be taken the wrong way. Nothing great came out of COVID, right, let's just, let's just leave that there, okay or nothing. You have to acknowledge the pain points of COVID before you go celebrating something that happened.
Speaker 1:So during COVID, I'm allowed to get on tennis channel without traveling, and that was my, my biggest thing, right, I can, I don't want to travel. I'm not giving up this time. I traveled for my entire life. Everything was based around, you know, something that was happening in some city and I had to be present, and I, frankly, just didn't want to have to be present doesn't mean my interest in the game was any any less but then, all of a sudden, covid hits and there's no live content and we basically have to read the phone book on on air on tennis channel.
Speaker 1:And I remember my original. I asked for a job on Twitter and they responded and so I had a job in. The original contract was like oh well, you know, let's do six weeks and then this thing will probably be over. Yeah, that, and so I luckily the the positive selfishly for me they came out of. Is it set precedent from being able to have these conversations without having the background of whatever stadium you're at right there. So I am certainly thankful that this form of conversation has become more acceptable.
Speaker 3:Well put. And no, you're right. I mean, we're going to look back at this is a very strange interval, but it's really changed. You know? I mean, how many people go to an office five days a week like there's? There's a lot of. We showed ourselves to be a fairly adaptable species, and certainly in work as well.
Speaker 1:Producer Mike, are you writing something for me or are we going to wrap here? You got something. Give me your sticky. Oh, this is interesting. So empty nest, yeah, empty nester. Do you have Valentine's plan? Is there a stranger pressure on Valentine's Day, when, when, when you're an empty nester, do you have to bring out all the stops?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I thought we were going to talk about, like you know, we could talk about Dominic team. We could talk more about what's going on at the top of the game. Did you hear Yannick's center pulled out at an event and it didn't go over so well. Adrian Manorino, the French lefty, is coming on strong. I'm glad.
Speaker 1:Actually actually okay, your strategy worked. I'm actually interested in that, because what are you going to do on Valentine's Day?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the pressure gets ratcheted out, Geez I mean?
Speaker 1:what do you? What's happening? You're like wilting under the pressure.
Speaker 2:I'm glad that you're not you weren't on my side of the microphone for our entire career.
Speaker 3:I need the time to answer a simple question.
Speaker 1:I've done that.
Speaker 3:We have. We have. We have a dinner reservation here in New York and fourth, the forthcoming trip to Europe. I'm thinking what do you think pickleball lessons makes for a nice Valentine's. Remember I bolder candles.
Speaker 2:Candles six.
Speaker 3:We think pickleball lessons make it good. I don't think so.
Speaker 1:I'm open to suggestion. I played I gave Brooke a tennis lesson one time and it ended with her Tomahawking the racket at the fence and saying what do you know anyways. And so that was that. So I would advise against it. But anyways, john, I'm glad that we we're in a committed relationship now. That feels good. I'll sleep well, even long distance. That's fine with me. I'll give it a try. We're each other's.
Speaker 3:Valentine. I didn't ask you what you're doing with two kids. It's a different, different arrangement. That's a different. It's a different kind of pressure too. You got to make those hours, you got to make that babysitter count.
Speaker 1:I will tell you like my wife might care less about Valentine's Day than I do. There is no pressure. My wife is the coolest. She does not care. She doesn't want to have to make a plan either. So I'm not sure what we're going to do. We have kids get ready for school the next day, so we might just punt on it. But anyways, she knows I appreciate her every day and not just Valentine's Day. I appreciate you.
Speaker 1:You're not just Valentine's Day. Also, john worth them. All right, man, I'll see you next week. We'll do it again, sounds good. See you, buddy. We always feel lucky to have John worth. I'm on. But that was the most awkward response from him. It wasn't as if I asked a hard hitting question. I was like, what are you doing on Valentine's Day? And it was. It was like his reaction was one of if I asked him for a kidney and he just wasn't quite sure. I glitched him. I mean, he went full glitch Like it's amazing, he's a journalist, he asks all these hard hitting questions in 60 minutes and then it's like, hey man, what'd you have for breakfast?
Speaker 2:Ah, oh, Anyways, that was we're thankful, we're thankful I have them, but that was that was super weird, john.
Speaker 1:Uh guys, the most incredible athletic feat that I've ever seen wasn't the football game, being usher on roller skates. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2:You get a. No, no, you get a chance.
Speaker 1:It's like this is a culmination of your life's work to this time. You're 45 and you look like you're 23. Like whatever his skincare thing is like, he's obviously taking whatever Michael Sarah was selling in that. In that that's Sarah commercial. But usher being like you know what? I'd like to bring a lot of risk into this. I'm going to perform a song on roller skates Are you kidding me at the Super Bowl?
Speaker 1:And everyone's like, well, he did it during his residency there. I'm like, yeah, but you also like practice the stages perfect. You, it is a makeshift. He made a roller skating rink in the middle of the Super Bowl, came out and started singing songs and then went through someone's legs Like we're not playing around. This is the Super Bowl halftime show. This is the biggest perform, most eyeballs you ever have on you in your entire life, and you're going. You know what? Give me the fucking skates. Like it's. It's just, it's a crazy. It's the craziest, most insane ballsy thing that I've ever seen. And if some guy somewhere in America is like I have rollers, I used to roller skate twice a day no, not while singing confessions on the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, that was the top five.
Speaker 1:If he would have just skated around and not sang any songs and just risk falling, it would have been top five.
Speaker 2:He did, yeah, he did. He goes my boo like he brought at least a keys out and he's like roller skate me.
Speaker 1:Are you out of your mind? That isn't. That's the most craziest ballsy thing I've ever seen on a Super Bowl field in my life was usher on roller skates and there was a game. Guys the.
Speaker 2:Psyop was successful. The chiefs did it.
Speaker 1:The Psyop full Taylor Psyop, one crazy. And I nailed. I nailed my prop bets. I won't read them all here now, but what was it? Five and a half times she was way over five and a half times. Reba put in an official 90 seconds. The previous was one 24 from 20 years ago. She went back for, you know, kind of did a second round of lyrics there right at the end for the save on the over red lipstick. That was always going to happen. There was no hokey pokey turning yourself around with that one. Pat Mahomes in all serious, we're joking at the beginning of this close, beginning of this close is a weird thing to say, but Pat Mahomes it's. I thought they were overplaying the yeah, these are all the reasons why San Fran is the most complete team we've seen and the only defense was yeah, but Pat Mahomes like that's all anyone said for two weeks was like the defensive anything we pride ourselves on served on getting into the weeds on things.
Speaker 2:There were no weeds to be had.
Speaker 1:It was like San Francisco run blocking uh, kiddle can block downfield Christian McCaffery, most versatile back that we've ever seen this side of Marshall flock. You know Brock Purdy, mr Relevant, now he's a great game manager. Is he a great manager? No, he's a game executive. And then the defense of that was like yeah, but Pat Mahomes and that was it for two weeks and it angered me because I'm like, no, you got to give more, that's just lazy journalism.
Speaker 2:But you know, you know, you know it was the most accurate journalism going in, the most accurate predictions. Uh, yeah, but uh, it was like the full butt head defense. Uh, mahomes, unbelievable.
Speaker 1:Uh, andy Reed. And Andy Reed. Like we quickly forget, he was the guy who was the best coach that hadn't won a Super Bowl yet. Right, the Eagles, all that like he had one. And now, all of a sudden, three Super Bowls later, one of the best offensive coaches of all time, one of the best coaches of all time winning a simple Andy Reed screen to win the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2:That was the most Andy Reed finish that I've ever seen.
Speaker 1:Uh, all around just props. I feel bad for the Niners. Kyle Sheehanahan has had a heartbreak hotel. Uh, in the Super Bowl. Uh, kittle Purdy, they're going to be back. They're locked and loaded. It was a lot of fun to watch. Usher was the Super Bowl MVP and I don't have any time for anyone who has a differing opinion. I'm sorry, this is a we're in a polarized time and if you think Usher wasn't the most impressive part of that on roller skates on a temporary stage at the Super Bowl then you're insane. Then you're you're, you're absolutely insane. Uh, tennis channel guys, it's going to pick up this podcast and we are going to play it on T2, tennis channel, all of their different platforms. Uh, it's going to be a Sunday night show. Uh, we think and we're pretty positive that our first, uh first show, our debut, will be on March 4th. Crazy Two episodes in, and now, all of a sudden, we get to talk to a larger demo of tennis fans, some that probably didn't even know that we were starting this little operation. Hopefully, uh, they will.
Speaker 2:And for our early adopters, all this time, guys, all this work that we've been putting in for two weeks, it's finally paid off. We're on TV, uh, we, yeah, yeah, thank you to uh, where are they? I'm Charlie P, charlie M, justin producer, mike, before he was like we need to get you something other than sticky notes, cause this is the only thing that people hear, guys, when you're pulling in $13, this is your product, this is what you get, this is it. They're going to have to deal with the uh, with the audio. We couldn't be happier. John warthime, officially on full time. Uh, great tennis channel news.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, uh, we can continue to provide you with some differentiated content. Um, you know something that I think was uh open for the taking in the in the tennis space. Hopefully it'll be a little bit of different show. But come along with us, uh, early listeners. We appreciate you and hopefully we'll see a little bit more often with our deal to take this podcast and format it uh for TV and tennis channel. Uh, check us out on all the platforms, right, we were adding them all the time. Uh, apple Spotify has been generous to us. You guys have uh continued to keep us, this little tiny tennis podcast, amongst the uh giants in the in the, the regular sports ether. Uh, here in America, in Brazil, shout out for Nino Melligeni for for plugging us. We got to get him on. Yeah, we'll get him on. Um, it's been, it's been. Uh, it's been great. We can't wait to see you on tennis channel and that's it. Anything else, homies? All right, we got you next week. Thanks, thank you.