In this episode of "Served with Andy Roddick," Andy, along with Jon Wertheim and special guest Kim Clijsters, a four-time Grand Slam singles champion, delve into the mental and physical aspects of tennis, highlighting Jannik Sinner's impressive post-Grand Slam performance, Naomi Osaka's remarkable return post-maternity and the End of an Era for the one-handed backhand. The conversation gets personal with former World No. 1 Clijsters sharing her life beyond tennis, discussing motherhood, and reflecting on her career.
2:23 - Sinner continues with the hot hand
9:04 - Impacts of Fitness on Tennis Performance
11:00 - Naomi Osaka continues to impress
14:33 - WTA Top 4 Players
19:00 - Alcaraz struggles in Argentina
23:35 - End of the One-Hander Era
31:31 - Strange Case of Simona Halep
41:43 - Kim Clijsters joins the show
50:15 - Comparing Pickleball and Tennis Pacing
1:00:51 - Reflections on career post-childbirth
1:11:08 - Kim on the Halep suspension
1:20:48 - Served Supporter Group Shout Outs!
1:21:38 - Andy Russian Story
1:23:44 - Andy gets demolished by the door
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Watch the Episodes on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0k_--YLuTNuDvq1Dw4zHmw
In this episode of "Served with Andy Roddick," Andy, along with Jon Wertheim and special guest Kim Clijsters, a four-time Grand Slam singles champion, delve into the mental and physical aspects of tennis, highlighting Jannik Sinner's impressive post-Grand Slam performance, Naomi Osaka's remarkable return post-maternity and the End of an Era for the one-handed backhand. The conversation gets personal with former World No. 1 Clijsters sharing her life beyond tennis, discussing motherhood, and reflecting on her career.
2:23 - Sinner continues with the hot hand
9:04 - Impacts of Fitness on Tennis Performance
11:00 - Naomi Osaka continues to impress
14:33 - WTA Top 4 Players
19:00 - Alcaraz struggles in Argentina
23:35 - End of the One-Hander Era
31:31 - Strange Case of Simona Halep
41:43 - Kim Clijsters joins the show
50:15 - Comparing Pickleball and Tennis Pacing
1:00:51 - Reflections on career post-childbirth
1:11:08 - Kim on the Halep suspension
1:20:48 - Served Supporter Group Shout Outs!
1:21:38 - Andy Russian Story
1:23:44 - Andy gets demolished by the door
Keep up with us on socials!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/servedpodcast/
X: https://twitter.com/Served_Podcast
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@served_podcast?_t=8jZtCnzdAnX&_r=1
Watch the Episodes on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0k_--YLuTNuDvq1Dw4zHmw
All right, guys, our first sponsor full disclosure. I love this product so much. I am a user and I invested in it myself, calling. All tennis enthusiasts Want to know the secret weapon of professional players. It's not just talent, but data and analysis. Now you can unlock that same advantage with SwingVision, the AI app that revolutionizes your game. Imagine real-time stats, personalized insights and highlight reels that showcase your product. Plus, with smartwatch integration, you get superhuman line calls on your wrist. Stop guessing and start winning. Get your free swing stick and trial at swingvisionrsrv. Take your tennis game from good to great with SwingVision. Hey, everyone, welcome back to served. I can't believe that we are actually on for four episodes. We made it. I think Vegas had us at like two and a half episodes before we got canceled, but upsets happen. Have you ever heard of a little place called Lake Placid, john Worthyme?
Speaker 2:Do you believe in the miracle of our getting to Fort? That was like our US open. We've like, we've done the big four and now we're going to move on to season two. Good to be with you.
Speaker 1:We can't quite fill a stadium with listeners yet of Arthur S Stadium, but we're working on it. We're trying to get there. Anyways, we're going to jump right into it. I normally do a solo intro. We are not going to do that today because we have a lot to cover from the week that was. I look forward to the action happening next week. Our friend Kim Kleister is going to join John, so we, like we, actually have real guests and not just you now.
Speaker 2:You've upgraded significantly in the guest department. I commend you and, whatever, if Kim's here, I'm staying for it.
Speaker 1:You should. So Kim Kim's going to come on, we're going to top pickle. We're going to talk a little bit of this, this Simone Hallop story, which I know that you can give us some context on as well. John, let's get through the week that was a lot of big names in action, kind of heated up after a little bit of, maybe a couple of weeks of, of some players the top players maybe sitting out recovering after Australia. Let's start in Rotterdam. Obviously, the big storyline going into Rotterdam was Yannick center. How is his debut going to go with the kind of gravity that being a Grand Slam champion has? It went pretty well, didn't it, john?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't get the feeling this was ever going to be a guy who was going to have like a six month celebration tour. Get back to work, and that's essentially what he did. Two weeks after winning his first major, he stays undefeated indoors. Different part of the world didn't seem to slow him down at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the thing that he's just not really like losing serve, that often right. He used to kind of throw away some service games. He did not much as much has been made about him Bringing that foot up. He used to serve off of two feet, kind of like a platform serve, not quite a full platform, but he's bringing it up Feel like it helps him get the ball wide on the do side a little bit more. And listen, he can hit both shots to both sides. So if he's able to create space off that first serve, you have to cover two and three more steps per shot on that kind of first recovery shot.
Speaker 1:That's the thing that was screaming at me. Also, the guy is just playing like if he gets to a four, all 30, all point, he is in that mode where he might lose the point, right, but he's going to play a good one. I saw this highlight I think tennis channel played it and it was, you know, demon or breaks back and I'm like, okay, you know, maybe, maybe there's a dent in center, and I watched the point and in the point that demon or had to come up with was like a 42 ball rally, corner to corner which he wins that and he's tied. Like that's a depressing place to be right, Like when you're having to work that hard, and I said that's actually depressing if you're on the other side to know that that's what it's going to take to kind of win points and that's kind of what what centers forcing people to do right now.
Speaker 2:I wish we could quantify this all better, because sometimes we can say, oh, he's up his first serve percentage or he's going to the net this many more times. Okay, fair enough, this mental elevation that he's done. I mean again, we talked about this a few weeks ago. Six months ago, you would say, boy, nice player, all the tools are there, but not the guy I want with my life on the line, not the guy I'm necessarily betting on it at four, all in the decisive set. He has completely turned that around, not just winning close matches but, like you say, just the little things. Right, this is what Novak and Rafa and his prime Roger did the breakbacks, the fact that when you do go down breakpoint, you absolutely make the other guy earn it. And then again, the these, this breakback stat, which has always terrifically underrated us, something that that he has now mastered. I think he's just.
Speaker 2:I mean we talk about sort of the adjustments to the service motion and you know he's a big, big guy that I think people are finally realizing. Wait, this is like. This is a six five athlete, this is a six five mover. This guy's got probably six inches on on Alcrest, but I think this, this mental upgrade that again. This is like post-US open. This is in a very compressed period of time, but he plays like losing hasn't entered the equation for him. You know, all right, maybe I'll, maybe I'll have to break back, I'll get broken this game and take it, maybe I'll have to, you know, pin back and go back in the back end for eight balls. But it's as though the the idea of losing and he out. You know he's undefeated on the year now, but the idea of losing doesn't really seem to have dawned on him and that's, that's a nice place to be.
Speaker 1:Well, he's gotten to a place where I don't even think he's thinking about the macro winning, losing, like obviously that's why we go to tournaments. But it feels like he's comfortable just playing great points, right, like I'm going to play great points and how that. That's been shaking out pretty well after 90 minutes or or or two hours. And as you're talking, I have one thing written underlined three times uh, fitness matters, right, when you can go into a tournament like Rotterdam know your legs there he's playing long rallies indoors, especially against demon, against mom feast guys that make you play extended rallies. When you're confident that your body which you know three years ago he looked like a kid, he was a kid, he he's moving and acting uh like a grownup on the court and he listen. His mental uh, his ability to not pout, not wine, not get frustrated, has always been there. His maturity as far as dealing, at least outwardly, with what we can see, has always been there. But his fitness, if you move a little better, if you're able to slide around and hit a couple more forehands, uh per set, um, if you're able to get in position for that first ball after you hit the serve uh and set up and all of a sudden maybe you get a step back and therefore you're getting a step forward on that first transition ball. All of those little things, the quick list, quickness, the movement, I think that directly impacts uh kind of the, the random air count, uh, going down a little bit right Like you're going to miss. But if those misses have intent and are done in the right place, when he's missing right now he's missing by an inch on a winner, right, that's a healthy miss, that's something like that's just executing that given shot.
Speaker 1:But you know, I, I I didn't expect him to have a little afterwards. He doesn't seem like the kite type of person that's going to get carried away with anything. Uh, but impressive stuff. I mean he just ran through it and props to demon, also demon, or I mean he, this, this guy, he looks like work on the court and I say that in the most complimentary way possible. You know, we've kind of gone through that uh, you know, from the rafters, uh, back to lavers and the rose walls, and Aussie's always played with a certain type of grit and he kind of enthusiasm for the game, and then we kind of went into the curios and coconut and where, you know, we, we, we, we would pick highlights over results a little bit. Um, and it wasn't really kind of that old school Aussie culture. Uh, this guy's kind of resetting the clock a little bit, isn't he?
Speaker 2:They're decom. Yeah, this is their typical throwback. Aussie Good guy maxes out his talent, doesn't make waves. You want to be his friend? Um, yeah, so we had a little little bit of a blip, a little bit of an aberration, but we're sort of back to our classic, classic Aussie archetype.
Speaker 2:I would also, I mean something that, um, I think I wrote about this recently, but you know, we have this easy distinction in tennis right Between mental and physical, and wasn't a mental loss or a physical loss. Where are you mentally, where are you physically? But it's kind of an artificial distinction and both thinner and demon, to your point, show that when you're confident in your fitness and you're feeling like you're in full health and you're feeling rested, that impacts the mental. These are not two separate silos and you beat someone mentally or you beat someone physically. They really play off each other in different ways with these two guys. But knowing your foot speed, knowing you put in the work, knowing your conditioning isn't going to break down, that goes a long way into projecting confidence when it's. You know when you're facing break point.
Speaker 1:I mean what we're really talking about with fitness, because I always have this thing where I tell younger players, you know, if they come in an hour into practice, they're, you know, suck and win and I go. Fitness is actually a choice. It's a choice to spend enough time to make sure that your ticker can last and that you're strong enough. But it is a choice Like tennis isn't a choice Like I was never going to have a topspin backhand that could pull someone off the court. It's just I just technically it wasn't an adjustment that that could be made without retooling. You know everything since I'm nine years old, which, when you're 23, is a little late. But fitness is it's. It's preparation, right Preparation. If you feel prepared, you're mentally a little bit easier. You're not panicking at certain moments because you're worried about shortening points. You're not having to kind of make decisions that are that are a bit of a compromise because of said state of mind. So I agree, I completely think they're. They're interlocked a lot.
Speaker 1:Props to Demetroff. Guys playing a heavy schedule early in the year made another semi, continues to play great stuff, is one of the most fun guys on tour to watch. I have Raonich with a question mark because it's like when he's on the court he still wins matches. Right, you know, he looks like he's wearing the low socks, like I wore the last year of my career, like like an accountant wears on his weekend golf game. But push center, you know, almost won the first set off of center because that his serve is still one of the top three in the world. It's a joke. But then the body just can't quite get there and it stinks when you're watching that in real time, where it's not a question of tennis ability, it's just a question of can I get this body to actually work for me. So hopefully we get to see him in full flight where you can get a run of you know six months, where he gets one last run, where it's not all these kind of stops and starts.
Speaker 1:I thought Doha was a really fun tournament to watch. A lot, a lot of really cool storylines. Obviously Shfiatek beating Rabakina in the final there and we'll get to that in a second, but Pliskeva coming off of a win in Romania and then making semis in Doha backing it up. She kind of looks like she's back to the top 10 player that we've become accustomed to, osaka going in getting some quality wins over Garcia and Martich, losing a tough one to Pliskeva. But what did you see out of Osaka? I thought this was a great result for her to kind of get through a couple of matches and play another tough one, get into those tense moments again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is why she went to the Middle East and she could have stayed in LA and just had a long training block before Indian Wells. She decided she needed the matches and I don't you kind of feel like this is pretty much where it should be. If she were able to pick up right after this leave of absence and this maternity leave and go back to had you won the Australian Open for a third time, it would have been a great triumph. We also would have been like Wait a second, I'm not sure that that's a great. That's a great picture overall. If she had gotten her doors blown off and lost one and one, we would have said yikes.
Speaker 2:I think the story pretty much is where it should be. You know She'll, she'll get it back, she'll get back in the groove, she'll get the match play. You know she beat the player who beat her in Australia. That's a positive time. Her loss wasn't a bad loss, or loss of Australia wasn't a bad loss. I kind of feel like this is, this is breaking about where it should be and she'll Get, get her matches in, and who knows if she's gonna win a fifth major, but she's not going to be outside the top hundred. So I think this is breaking about about right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually think she's probably ahead of schedule because you can play those tough matches and To actually pull a couple out pretty early Back in a comeback, that's like a that's that's kind of that's kind of a big deal to have your body actually go through a couple weeks in a row. Um, I kind of was really, really happy when she talked pre-Australia about I'm going to play a very full schedule, right, if she gets the reps and can get back, I don't question the tennis. The ball striking Looked phenomenal. Now it's just do I miss a second serve at a big point? Do I, am I able to, to put pressure on second serve returns All day long, like I used to? Can I get that half a step Back? That is done through reps and the confidence in those moments is not recreated in practice in Beverly Hills. It's just not, um, you know so for her to get back out there, I thought this was a really, really good result for her and she has three, three days to really recover before this next one.
Speaker 1:I think if you had to script it as far as the rest of the year, I think, I think it was actually a big result that I don't I don't want to undersell just because Kind of we take her greatness for granted and and what it was. But um, I think, I think she's on a if I'm her team, I'm I'm thrilled with where she's at 100%.
Speaker 2:Let me, let's tack something else on before we move on. You and I, our parents, we have never given birth, um, so maybe we are not speaking from firsthand experience, but let's also, you know, sometimes I hear, oh, oh, sock is come back. I'm saying, wait a second. She, she did have a child, which never mind sort of the physiology of it all, like that's, that's a big emotional moment, that's a big adjustment to your rhythms, to your sleep, to your sort of to your state of mind. Um, I, you know that this is not your, your typical leave of absence. And she, the elbow, is feeling better and now she's playing matches. Um, and I think sometimes we gloss over Uh, yeah, that's a good point, attorney leaf, big big thing. And uh, she's, she's handling it very gracefully and I think there are probably a lot of adjustments, some physical, some not at all physical, that she's working her way through. So, yeah, you're right, winning, winning matches, flying across oceans, like she's, she'll be back.
Speaker 1:If only we had Someone on this pod later who knew what it was like to win slams post motherhood that way you know, maybe we uh, maybe we ask conclisters uh about that as the resident world expert on the On the subject, but I just I'm watching doha and I watched this fiat tech rebalcon a final and I hope I put this the right way. Um, I love what I'm seeing uh on the women's tour right now. It's like, you know, golf steps up at the us open last year and then fiat tech steps up at world tour finals and I'm like, oh, she's the best player. Then, you know, australia happens and sabalinka pushes the the envelope again and gets through Uh in dominant fashion, not losing a set, and then shviata comes right back. I feel like we're seeing this, this group of elite players, uh, players that have have won slams already Really pushing each other and and we're kind of watching it in real time and a lot of times in tennis we kind of forget the moment to realize when it's actually happening and then we look back and be like wasn't that great? I feel like we're seeing them kind of push each other and elevate their own product in real time and I'm here for it. I loved it. I loved fiat tech's victory. I love how much she cares.
Speaker 1:Rebaka is back once she gets a downhill head of steam with that serve is dangerous. I think the delta between her good and bad is probably more than the other uh three that we mentioned. Uh, but her upside is probably just as good or better than the rest of them. So I don't know who's who's who's best. I change my mind every week, but isn't that fun.
Speaker 2:That's great. And uh, you know, we had a very fluky wibbledon right. We had bandross of the sort of quirky lefty who had no Grass track record. She wins. So that's our outlier take, take that result out. And for the last two years the four players you've mentioned have won at least one major and been a finalist, and at least one, and in multiple majors. So this is a group of four that's really sort of risen above and I think, uh, you're right. The other thing too is like the last, I mean serena, and the big three. That's once in a lifetime. We're never going to see that again.
Speaker 2:The much more normal trajectory and landscape is You've got four really good players. They've separated themselves. I think you raise a really good point. They are not just improving but they're pushing each other. Yes, they're adding little elements of their game to beat the other one. Awesome, and it's awesome exactly. And if this is our core four, I mean think about also the players you've. You know they're different temperamentally, they have different games. There are four players from four different countries there's. There's a lot to recommend here and I think that's a good point you raise. It's kind of a sneaky good time for women's tennis, right, it's not serena and maria and it's not necessarily the players who nike is gonna like Pour eight figures a year and endorsements behind at least in three of the four. But, um, it's a really good group and, uh, it's Good, good times and I feel like we should probably be talking about that more. Yeah, it's, it's fun to watch, like, even like the pattern I saw Shfiatek is, it's a.
Speaker 1:It's a weird thing because when she's set and has time she probably has the best forehand in the world, right. That, especially on the on the women's side, and the footwork is so good. There's little steps, the, you know not side to side, out of the corners footwork that's coco's probably got that covered as far as best in the world. But those little kind of half circle C movements where you hit one good ball and then you're able to turn the point real quick and get that Forehand and start, you know, you know Distributing. But on the flip side of that, when she has to defend, when someone like a rabokina hits that forehand cross court flat, that's been something that, listen, and you're comparing it to her own shadow, right, it's like when I criticize Alca resa, serve it's, it's. It's it's because of their own precedent that they would expect from themselves. But even Shfiatek adjustment where she gets that ball and starts Redirecting it line with a little bit of shape to reset the point and get the traffic going back to that point, which is the side she handles pace better on. I was living for it. I'm sure four other people on earth were actually as excited about it as I was in real time. But I'm to your point. Those real-time adjustments they're having to make in these matchups Against other elite players is is really fun and I hope we talk about it and celebrate it in real time and not just when it's gone, like we tend to do. So I want to transition, because I did mention Alca resa serve, I think, the question Alcaraz. First of all, let's shout out the winner Diaz Acosta had won two atv matches ever and then wins a tour event In his hometown in Buenos Aires. Like how cool is tennis? Because that stuff happens, like all the time. It's so, so cool. Jari had a great week with the win over Alcaraz.
Speaker 1:I think the overriding story coming out of that, outside of the, the Buenos Aires of things and Diaz Acosta is Alcaraz and he played, I thought, two pretty ordinary matches that he won Weird errors at times, you know, trying different things, going in and out of strategies. It felt like it was searching a little bit and then Jari kind of just took it to him and he took an Uncharacteristic loss. Okay, and you go on. I'm reading comments and it's you know, sinner is never going to lose again and Alcaraz isn't what we thought and I just think all of that commentary Sinner is Sinner. We've already covered him. He is awesome, but because he's playing well doesn't mean that Alcaraz is never going to play great again like this is it's.
Speaker 1:It's kind of dumb to look at his resume and then freak out over a loss somewhere. First match on a surface and you know, coming up on what? Nine months or something. But also, I think the macro conversation is with the big three, with Serena, we feel entitled to peak performance all of the time, for decades at a time, and that's not real life. They made it their real life, but that's not the expectation set going forward.
Speaker 1:I remember I was at the us Open two years ago before Alcaraz had won a major, but there was a lot of hype around him and I'd be doing these you know corporate suite visits that we do together up there Sometimes, where you're running through it, it's like, well, it's Alcaraz going to win 10 majors. I'm like he hasn't won a single major yet and you're putting him ahead of names like Agassi, lendl, mcenroe, connors, becker, edberg. So I think the reality with which we approach conversations is or the yeah, lack of reality is insane like he's allowed to work, he's allowed to play well sometimes and then play badly. Six months later it happens.
Speaker 2:The. Uh, I would say you know, Joe Kovic has won more majors than Andre and Pete put together.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would say Pete's are going to be like he wasn't that good, he didn't win double digit majors. It's, it's so dumb. Yeah, we need to, uh, we need to recalibrate. The irony with Alcaraz is, even so, even with this swoon, the guy's still going to be 21 In a couple months and he's already got two. I mean, the guy could retire tomorrow and he's a Hall of Famer. Um, yeah, I think, um, we're all going to have to To recalibrate and realize that, um, you know, with the trajectory of Alcaraz is much more reasonable. It's Roger Rafa Novak. They're the outliers, not the guy, not medvedev, not the guys who win a major, losing a final go. I mean, that's much more, that's that's much more normal than guys winning three majors a year, multiple years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I worry about a lot of things in my life. Uh, I don't worry about Alcaraz on the heels of a loss in Buenos Aires, buenos Aires, very, very, very often. That's not something that keeps me up at night or that I worry about. He will be just fine. He is a stud. Has not played great so far this year. There are some things that I'm sure his team is very concerned about and also they know when you look back, 12 years from now, the guy will have had, uh, he will be one of the names on the shortlist top 10 all-time greats, and that should be respected, like we can't just not respect anyone because they're not Roger Rafa or Novak or Serena.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even with those players you know, I mean, serena won the us open in 99. It took her a few years to get back on the board. Novak won the australian open in 2008. He didn't win another major for three years. Um, even if, uh, these these crazy historical comparisons are probably not advisable long term, even the big four, even the three guys and Serena, had their, had their lapses. So, yeah, to win multiple majors, uh, before you turn 21, you're, you're gonna be okay.
Speaker 1:All right and we're gonna rifle through. Uh, del Rey, we we shoot this pod on a monday. We have to turn around, edit it by Tuesday morning. There was a rain delay in Del Rey beach, uh, so the Tommy Paul Taylor Fritz final is still to be played, but Tommy Paul backing up last week with another final, that is a good sign. Four young player Taylor Fritz getting some, some reps in before he goes out to Indian Wells, uh, where we know he loves that tournament. Just looking forward to next week. Can Alca res recover? Uh, in in Rio. Uh, dubai is stacked field.
Speaker 1:Uh, everything we just said about a wta tour, you can watch it next week live in a real, in person. Um, again Sabalanca back in the mix. Jess Pagula is not playing next week. You look ahead to Los Cabos. Some big names is there. It's a boss, rude, demon hour making the trek From Rotterdam indoors to outdoors. Uh, that is a week where, if something good happens, great If not on the Indian Wells, um, one of the big storylines this week that I want to spend a little bit of time on. And then I want you to give us also some context with the Simona Halop story over the the last 18 months. But something I want to get to first, which is uh, it was, it was a, it was a weird stat, I didn't know how to digest it. Um, sitsipas drops out of the top 10. No one handed back hands. Uh, for the first time ever in the top 10 Uh of the atb rankings. What was your initial reaction? Do you not care, or is it like a huge sign of the times, or is it both?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, you tell me. I mean, I feel like there's this. You know, in social psychology Sometimes we have this optic bias where you know that the nice looking job candidate, we overestimate their skills. Or I was just reading about it with a Nicola Yokech right here. Here's this NBA player. He's chubby, he doesn't look like an NBA player. I'm not going to draft him. I feel like we have this a bit of an optic bias with the one handed backhand. It's pretty, it's aesthetic. We all wish we could hit it. I'm not sure how practical it is. This has been a diminishing shot. You know, I I guess we have, uh, we have Lorenzo Mussetti, but otherwise it's it's hard to think of an up-and-coming player. Certainly you go to the juniors. You don't see a lot of one handed backhands. I wonder, you tell me, I mean, it's just like the hook shot in basketball, where it looks cool but sort of, uh, the the aesthetics over outstrip the effectiveness.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, yes, uh, but also like it. I will. I'll do like a deep dive on why I think this is, this has been the case and it's falling out of fashion. But to your point, like one handers look really cool, like it just looks cool, right, like Novak hits a back end winner and it's, it's, it's awesome. And then while rinka fires one line and we go, whoa they both count for one, though.
Speaker 1:Exactly like they both count for one point, like you don't get bonus points, you don't get cool points, you know um. So, yes, absolutely like I. I used to have this thing where I would go uh, someone like, oh, there's this prospect, you have to hit with them. And he was 17, from this place, oh, so talented, so talented, so talented. And then I played, it's like they can't move, it's kind of like they're the flat footed. You know, I'm like, but then they would fire one back in an hour and they'd be like, and I'd go yeah, but like, how much he has to move to hit that. Like at some point you have to fix. Uh, yeah, so your point is is well taken. I also think it's just a, it's a, it's a direct byproduct of you know, like I. I always say, like players know what's going to work. Uh, by peeking around the corners, like when Surfaces slow down a little bit, when natural gut no longer exists, and you can create this crazy spin profile. Uh, especially on returns, that's the big thing, like, the big advantage is returns. Like can you get your left hand on it and you have two hands on it and kind of knock them down? Returning has been completely changed. Right when I first started on tour, there were like three or four guys that could actually hit over a return on my first serve, right. It was like saffin, hewitt, agacy, I'm sure there's someone else and then you, there were a ton of guys like a henman who would chip it in and then you would kind of, you know, start dancing a little bit right, and you would get into the point and then by the time I retired it was like 80% of the tour could hit over. It be by virtue of the strings, the surface changes. So you know, contrary to every fan who watches us live and says hit it to their back end, like I promise you, we've thought of that, like we, I promise you, like I, like I've never once gone. Oh man, I should just hit it there. That was, that was simple. What am I paying Brad Gilbert for this guy? Accountant Larry knows what's going on in the first row at leg mason or city bed, whatever it's called. This now it is. But yeah, I think it's just a listen.
Speaker 1:When it was Sliced specific, where you were trying to get in as fast as possible, when, uh, you could return with a chip and get away with it, uh, the one hander made a lot more sense. You know now, if you chip and now rafa, you're feeding rafa a chip in the middle of the court You're not going to break that often like you're not getting any help from the court. You're not hitting like a little low. You know slimy chip, you know a la lodra when it's getting away from you and you kind of have this like accidental effectiveness. Uh, you know.
Speaker 1:So there are a lot of reasons. It takes more time to set up. Guys are hitting bigger. How are you going to take a full swing when alcaraz is running around cranking forehands? Right, it's easier to check that ball down. Uh, the defense that you can play on a backhand side, center Medvedev, all these, you know crazy people who can hit. You know sliding two hand backhand novak invented it, you know, ferrer was great at it. The backhand out of the corners, where it's not a defensive shot anymore and you can switch directions up the line. That's so much tougher to do with one hand. Uh, you know, I think we kind of avoided this conversation for a long time, largely because of roger and what.
Speaker 1:Like a supernatural talent, he was on that side and magician. You know he could have played with a louisville slugger and still made, uh, you know, something happened with the ball and made it dance around a little bit. So, um, it feels like it was coming. Uh, it's something I didn't think about at all in january because it was like the new normal and you just didn't think about it. And then someone out of the top 10 and, first time ever, it's like, oh okay, this is like actually, uh, it kind of feels like the end of an era a little bit, and I don't see A comeback for it, right, I don't think there's a, there's a lane where you know you're automatically gonna teach your 12 year old to stand inside the court and try to torch one hand, backhand, return winners and play defense out of that side, like that. I just don't see it coming back, which is sad because, as we said, john, they look really fucking cool.
Speaker 2:Cool you know we're uh you know where the one-hander is thriving Pickleball on the four, on the four hand side. Yeah, the four hand side. Um no, and I I mean we talk about we're talking Strictly about men, but you got to go wait, I don't even know the answer to this, diane Perry. I mean you got to go way down the rankings On the women's side.
Speaker 2:They sort of got. They sort of got to this first and you know again, I mean, there's some trends in tennis that come and go, but go watch a junior match, I'm not sure you know you go, go watch the juniors. You don't see a lot of one-handers. Um, I, you know what it's. It's tennis is an industry. It's a competitive industry. We adapt, we evolve, we adjust for technology and, uh, we all love the one-hander in theory. But I think it's hard, you know, if you're you're 10 year olds, taking up competitive tennis, I think it's a tough case, tough to make a business case, right yeah.
Speaker 1:I think also, one of the things we will see maybe at some point is and I'm still waiting for it is someone who returns with two hands and then goes to one During during rallies. Oh and the point? Yeah, it is, and it sounds like a crazy thing until you see the fluency of Someone like a Murray right, who can take one hand off the racket and hit. That chip is one of the best chips on earth. You didn't normally associate people who had two handers with having great chips for a long time. Rafa has a great chip. He can switch directions. That's kind of his preferred choice to get the rally. He wants to go back to the forehand side. Andy Murray has a great chip. We talk about, you know, women not having one handers.
Speaker 1:Barty essentially had a one-hander that she used all the time. Right, she would hit that, the. She would hit the the slice Once she got into a point. That's pretty much all she hit by default. She just returned with two hands and would hit. Passing shots with two hands is basically where it, where it netted out. So I don't think that's a leap to say that may happen at some point, but it just feels like one-handers, you know, are riding off into the sunset like a really cool-looking cowboy. You know, imagine that shot. Felt like a one-hander, unfortunate, but as a friend, bruce horns, be said before to Pog. That's just the way it is.
Speaker 2:I think we were getting a Bruce horns be referenced in, but what else we got?
Speaker 1:we can. We were capable of many things on this podcast. Hopefully good content is one of them. Jerry's out. But One thing I need you to do for me Is kind of break down the Simona Hall of story positive drug tests, going through all sorts of court dates as of now and correct me where I'm wrong she is suspended or serving a suspension for four years, trying to get overturned. A lot of moving parts, a lot of factors, a lot of other humans involved. Give us a quick backstory and then where do we stand in current time? Because Kim Klysters has some feelings about this and I want to kind of set up and give some context so she can kind of roam freely with her thoughts in the next segment.
Speaker 2:No man, how you'll stop me if we go too deep in the woods.
Speaker 1:I'll go for it.
Speaker 2:So let's see I have no notes in front of me, but it's. It's 2022. Simone Hall up, former number one Wimbledon champion. Very strange year for Simone Hall up. She latches on with Patrick Marotta, glue and she she goes all in. She fires her team. She completely changes her, her base, her agent, her publicist, her coach. And At the French open very strange event this is the event she's won before and she has an on court panic attack that had never happened before. She had a very good Wimbledon. She recovers, she wins Toronto big title. Things are looking great. She goes to the US Open, loses in the first round to a Ukrainian qualifier and then fails a drug test and this she failed it at, wasn't it before?
Speaker 1:didn't she fail the test before the open, or was it actually at the US Open that she Failed? I?
Speaker 2:think it was administered at the open, okay, and she, she had not. You know, I think she did not play Cincinnati. It's very strange and you know, in the law sometimes we talk about good facts and bad facts. A lot of bad facts here there was. The substance was rucks and deustat I think I'm pronouncing that correctly which you know it's sort of used to Increase blood flow. I mean, it's, it's pretty obvious why this would be considered performance enhancing. She denies any and all use, and yet both on her forms. And then, I think more critically, when she is interviewed, she doesn't mention that she had this supplement that she suddenly started taking. Her theory is that this was a tainted supplement. We've heard that before, but it's, it's very strange. You would take a supplement that's so specific and niche and boutique they don't sell it over the counter. You take this supplement, you fail a drug test. You also lose a first round match to a qualifier, having won the big event 10 days ago, and Then in the interview you don't mention this.
Speaker 1:So that's the interview, meaning when you have to like. So when you do a drug test, if you're on Any sort of medication, they encourage you to write it down so that they have kind of full context of what you're taking. So If I was, I would even put down Advil when I was, when I was, you know, at the end of it. Or you know, let's give it, let's give a peek in here after Wimbledon. You know, even you lose a five-setter, you go in there, you would take a blood test, you would take a urine test Immediately after you could do the same thing out of competition, where they just knock on your front door and you have to be kind of Available on-call, you give them an hour a day Of where you are.
Speaker 1:So I always put like five to six in the morning because it's the only time I could guarantee that's where I would be If I took a like. If Brooklyn and I wanted to go somewhere for a night, I would have to include where we went, what hotel, in the room number, that's. That's how intense this process was. So you are programmed to provide Detail from a very early age In this process and it's tedious but is one of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it is what it is. Keep in mind, we're in a strict liability world, so essentially you fail a doping test and it's it's on you is basically what that means. But, as you say, I mean I've heard athletes to everything I'm at birth control pills and they get exactly Advil. Remember it was Maria Sharapova's failure to List Meldonium that was adverse to her case, but anyway, so Halop doesn't mention this, then she gets.
Speaker 1:Why is just sort of wrong it does, it does, weren't mentioning, like the Maria thing, like also, just for some context, took something that was legal December 31st, illegal January 1st, right, you know, all of these things that you take or supplements that you take, and you can argue the merits of Meldonium or whatever. That's another rabbit hole. But you know, to me, I'm a dummy and I'm taking something that has an R and M and X and it has 14 vowels and it's supposed to help me recover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's. It's sufficiently enough off-labeled that it comes from a specialty lab. You can't just go to CVS and get it. You know, I think most athletes would say, boy, that's the kind of thing I ought to be listing on my form and I certainly ought to be listing when I'm interviewed by the authorities after my positive test. That didn't happen. There were also these discrepancies in Simone Hall of biological passport. I'm not sure that should be seen as a separate offense because in theory this banned substance could have triggered these discrepancies.
Speaker 2:Long story short, the tennis authorities, this outside integrity agency, want six years Hala protein. You know, she protests and proclaims her innocence. She ends up getting four years and Essentially she she has appealed. She sued the manufacturer of the supplement company. Again, it's, it's a lot.
Speaker 2:It's a very strange fact pattern. She had her own experts. At one point one of her own experts said sort of oxygen and cardiovascular strength didn't matter in tennis, which seemed very strange, especially for a player who, you know, achieved what she did in large part because she was such a good mover and so well conditioned. It's the whole thing. It's, it's a very strange case. The bottom line is, you know, we're on a year and a half now her appeal is pending. She hasn't hit a ball. She's now in her 30s.
Speaker 2:I don't know how much we want to talk about coaching, but she took this supplement at the behest of Patrick Mortoglu, her new coach. You know, if this is, if this is any other sport, right? If you're, if you're at a UFC gym and you're a UFC fighter and your trainer tells you to take something and you test positive, that trainer has some explaining to do. If you're a college athlete, you fail a doping test and you say my strength and conditioning coach said to take this supplement. That strength and conditioning coach doesn't have a job in college athletics anymore. It's a little strange, I mean.
Speaker 1:I don't know sort of where we want to go with this.
Speaker 2:There's a lot going on here. I think some of this is we're talking about a former number one player. She beats Serena Williams at the Wimbledon final. This is a player who was, you know, very well regarded, somebody who is very measured, very professional in how she ran her career. So everything that happened in 2022, at a minimum, it was very chaotic and off-brand. It's a strange fact pattern.
Speaker 2:She is a very good lawyer and Howard Jacobs, who's based in LA and is, you know, represented Marion Jones. I mean, she's not scrimped on her counsel. But I gotta say, look at this objectively. This, this is an awfully tough case for the athlete, I think, and even if she can get this four years knocked down you know she turns 32 this year I those are, those are two big lost years. There's a bit of a stigma. I don't know if, if we do see her again, I don't know what player emerges, but this is, it's a very strange case and she has her defenders and she claims look, I don't know anything about this, I'd love to have a Defends. I'd love to say it was my grandma's pasta, remember? We had that there, we. It was my hair loss medication. It was tainted meat, it was a conjoined twin and how it's. Basically, I got no idea. I don't take, I don't, I don't, I don't take.
Speaker 1:I don't take hair loss medication, you do yeah.
Speaker 2:The Whatever she's no alibi. I'm not going there, um she. It should have started taking it earlier.
Speaker 1:Should I like? Yeah, I feel like I was late to the well, but okay, that's. That's actually to show you how psychotic like not psychotic, but how intense Tennis drug. Like I couldn't actually take hair loss medication until I retired that's a true story Like that actually is a thing you couldn't take pseudofed while you were on tour because it has some stimulant. Like that's how intense and Responsible you have to be in tennis for better or worse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean my. My larger issue with doping I feel free to weigh in here is I. It's really tough and I don't, I don't. You know, I have great, so, sympathy for the athletes and it's a pain in the ass and we've seen a lot of Cases where the athletes has been exonerated. We don't really hear about much about that. We hear about the initial pop. At the same time, if you want a clean sport and you think that Athletes need to compete on a level playing field yeah, you know you, you gotta go after your post match defeat and have someone put a needle in your arm and you've got to make your availability Public for one hour a day. I mean it sucks and I hear the complaints and I have great sympathy, but I don't know what the alternative is if we want a clean sport.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it is what it is. There are gonna be some things that that that stink when you're you're trying to figure out. Fairness, basically, is essentially what we're shooting for. But, john, I'm gonna kick you off right now because we have Kim Kleister's Coming up on the other side. She's gonna tell me why I'm wrong about pickleball. We are going to get into the Simona hola Story. I think it might be a little bit of hello from the other side. Hashtag Adele. I mean, we're just, we're just, we're just crushing it. We are just crushing it. But, my friend, thanks for being with us, as always, and we'll do it again next week.
Speaker 2:You got it.
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Speaker 1:We have a very special guest and it's a big deal for us because it proves that we're big time. We don't just have to rely on John worth time To to be on. We're like a real thing One of my dearest friends, winner of 41 career titles for in singles, three after she became a mother, which I think is one of the coolest stats in all of sports Two majors and doubles. You know someone's really great when you when you've known them since you were like 13 or 14, and then you read a stat that you were simultaneously number one in singles and doubles at the same time. Yeah, anyways, my friend, one of my favorite people on earth, kim Kleisters. Kim, how are you? Are you hungover and why?
Speaker 3:I'm doing good. This morning I got a little run in, got some sunlight in still a little horsey voice, but yeah, definitely didn't drink for a long time. And then all of a sudden last night, I don't know, things got a little loose and we ended up. My husband's team he coaches a high school basketball team here in St Rose and we have two of the Belgian kids that play for him. They have a Belgium, american passport that play for the school. They live with us, so you know we've been kind of dealing with the whole build up to the shore conference final and so they ended up winning it, which was history made for the school. So we celebrated and the parents celebrated harder than the kids, obviously, but yeah, fun night. A lot of people ended up sitting in our jacuzzi, which I don't know how all that happened. That's where it ended, I think, and I went upstairs and that's where it ended for me. So I got a good night's sleep in anyway.
Speaker 1:Pass along our congratulations to Brian. Is he a lightweight also, or can he handle his liquor?
Speaker 3:You know he's getting older and he's not actually he's not handling it as well as before. You know, or maybe he just tells me he has the headache, so it kind of, you know, take over the duties today, so he gives him give to give himself a little bit of a break. No, no, he's. Um, yeah, he's definitely is a better drinker than I am.
Speaker 1:So catch us up. What, what does? What does life look like day to day? Right now, I know you have three kids Brian, apparently a drinking problem Like. What is what? What does it look like day to day? Jada Jack Blake where are they? How old are they? What is what does life look like?
Speaker 3:So Jada is about to turn 16.
Speaker 3:She's yeah she got her driver's permit and all that stuff. So we're going through all that. You know. She wants to start driving and she's all excited about all that. She has a boyfriend and which is, you know, I don't know. We kind of start, my husband and I. We have the discussions of, like, the European parent, which is, you know, where things are a little more open and a little more outspoken. And then the American side is side of the family where you don't really talk about a lot of those kind of things, and so we've had some pretty funny conversations in our household recently. But no, but she's doing well.
Speaker 3:Jada plays basketball, loves it and is likes going to school, likes high school. So yeah, life is good for her. And then we have two boys Jack, who's 10. He is, he likes playing basketball. He also likes, he's into theater. And then we have Blake, our youngest, who we call him bracket Ralph. He everything he touches or he tries to do the nicest things for us, like he wants to set the table or he wants it, and he'll like end up like something always breaks or, you know, he'll spill something, like it's everything with good intentions but just clumsy, and but yeah so. And then we have the two kids from Belgium living with us, so we have five kids in the house.
Speaker 1:You have two kids from Belgium living in your house, so you have five.
Speaker 3:You have five kids.
Speaker 1:Like minors in your house at the same time.
Speaker 3:Right, so what my days look like is laundry, cooking, cleaning, laundry, you know, stays like trying to stay up with the day to day kind of practice clothes that they use, and that's kind of my battles and my, my yeah is usually with the laundry room or with the kitchen when I don't know if I feel more guilty or less guilty of having you on.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it sounds like you need a conversation with an adult outside of your husband or if I'm keeping you away from your daily chores.
Speaker 3:No, so I've actually felt like I've been on a vacation because their parents have been over the visit, because for this, the last two weeks, so I've had help like they staying with us as well. So I've had help from the mom who, literally as soon as I've dropped off the like my kids at school you know, I come home and the kitchen is spotless, like it's. It's like the easiest things. I felt like I've had a little bit of a vacation having, you know, two other adults living with us. Yes, it's been great. They were going home tonight. So I'm I have to start getting back into kind of getting up a little bit earlier and and then doing it by myself.
Speaker 1:Any, any tennis, or is it all pickle now?
Speaker 3:No, definitely tennis. The guys that I hit with. One of the guys that I hit with here in New Jersey most of the time. He moved to Texas recently. So kind of, yeah, looking through to see, like you know, who else can I can I hit with over here and but starting to hit with a new guy here in New Jersey for about two, two, three days a week.
Speaker 1:Isn't it weird how, like, I just went through this thing and I posted it on on Twitter last week, like I haven't switched rackets in 25 years and I the only ones I act? I mean it's not like I have the new model of the racket, I only have what I brought off tour. I mean, you saw him last year and I stink.
Speaker 1:I stink at tennis anyways. But it's amazing, you can. You can be number one in the world, you can have won four majors and you still have to, like, find someone to hit with, and it's like a weird thing to not have the person you hit with still there. Like you can figure out everything all over the world. It's like I don't have anyone to play with.
Speaker 3:No, and like I've actually gone like to hit with the girls at like one of the universities that's near us here, like mom, if just you know, like to go hit with them a little bit, like the guy the oldest kid that's living with us from Belgium is he just signed with Villanova.
Speaker 3:So you know, I look forward to like going to you know see if I can hit with some of the kids while we're in Philly, and and so that would be fun. But again, like it's a new world for me as well, right, moving from like Europe almost four years ago now, just to kind of I guess as as a mom you know you want the kids and the household to be settled first, right, when you move like, and then my own needs and my own priorities kind of they come in seconds. So I feel like I'm at a stage now where I'm like okay, like now I can start doing the things you know, like that that I can do when the kids are in school, like where, who can I, who can I hit with, where can I go work out you know, whatever, like all those things. So I've kind of put a lot of that stuff on hold since we moved, but now it's, it's, it's fun like to you know, start to, yeah, focus on myself a little bit more again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and Kim's not one of those players who stops playing and then doesn't know how to play tennis. She is mean, like, not mean like, personality wise, but she can play like the rest of us. I can't, I can't, I couldn't hit the ball into the ocean from the beach.
Speaker 3:Well. I love like. I still love to hit like. I love like. You know that rhythm of like. I don't know what it is. It must be some autistic little trade or something that we had in us.
Speaker 1:No, you're just, I would want to hit. If I hit the ball like you too, Like it would be fun for me it would be great.
Speaker 3:You're really downplaying yourself Like you hit the ball. Fine, what are you talking about? I would enjoy it too.
Speaker 1:I think I think the thing you're trying to, you know, figure out is like yeah, I'm really good at it.
Speaker 3:It's fun being good at stuff, it's funny, Like you like your serve is still amazing, like that's what I struggle with the most is like getting my serve like the arm to move and, to you know, get some decent speed behind it.
Speaker 3:Like my ground strokes are fine, my timing is fine, it's just a serve is like, yeah, and what I do like is like with pickleball, where you play a little bit of you know, like it's like mini tennis, right. Like when we used to be at the tennis school back in Belgium and we had a day off, what did we do? We played mini tennis games like for hours upon hours. They were like we play all these different formats and and that's what I feel like pickleball is a little bit it's like you get get to play, you get the reactions, the quick hands and you get like it feels like playing around, and so I try to play once in a while. You know, here with some guys that you know I'm in a WhatsApp group with and they invite me and but it's fun, I enjoy it. It's it's my competitiveness out of me.
Speaker 1:I just love it. Like she's in a pickleball WhatsApp conversation. Talk to me about pickle, though, because you're, you're, you're actually involved. Are you? Are you, you're an owner of a team, and what does that mean?
Speaker 3:So part owner of our team is called the Las Vegas Night Owls, so based out of Vegas.
Speaker 1:Sounds like they. It sounds like they named that after your night in the jacuzzi last night.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think I was the inspiration. No, but it's with. So our team is divided up on three females and three males, so kind of how the pickleball MLP format is is built upon, you know, equal playing rights, men and women. And so the two female owners are Kali Simkins and Caitlin Kerr, and then we have the main shareholders are Night Head, and then Tom Brady is really good friends with them, so he's also a part of it.
Speaker 1:That's cool. Does, does. Does Brady know anything about success in sports?
Speaker 3:Listen, it's really funny. He does, I mean, I'm sure. But like when I dropped my kids off at school, I've never had people come up to me and ask me when that news came out about the pickleball league. They're like do you have Tom Brady's number? Have you talked to him? It's crazy. Like maybe that was you know back in the day, that's what happened to you all the time too, here in America. But, like I've never had that happen where, like, other mothers are coming up to me and be like, oh my God, you like you do you know Tom Brady, you have his number. Like like no, I don't. Like I don't have his number. I've never talked to him. He's part of the team but never, never talked to him.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't. I don't know, I wouldn't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Like we live in a world of alternative facts, I feel like you should make up a story, like we have. I haven't seen him since since. How was it? Vacation in Mexico last?
Speaker 3:year he wasn't the jacuzzi here last year.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just be like you know, yeah something. No, no, no, I can't do that we only get together like four or five times a year, something like that, just kind of a just just see what happens, see what the see where the rumor goes. Now talk to me about like okay, so you're, you're an owner in pickle. You obviously know the world of tennis backwards. What was appealing to you about pickle and why am I wrong to think that it'll never work on TV?
Speaker 3:I don't know if I think you're wrong. I do. No, I have a hard time watching on TV as well. Like, I agree with you on that part.
Speaker 3:I do think it's incredibly fun to watch live when you you know, I've been to a few of the pro events and when you get to see the pro players play live, it is incredible, like how quick their hands are, how well they move their feet both, you know, male and female like it's it's so much fun to watch. I feel like the competitiveness of each point at the pro level is like there's so many exciting points, like point after point. They hardly make any mistakes and it's it's so much fun to watch live. But on TV and I try to watch it too and I just have a hard time, like you know. I don't know if we're spoiled in tennis because our sport is organized so well when it comes to camera work or TV or whereas, like, I'm always feeling like I'm left out on so much more information. You know when, when, when I'm watching pickleball on TV, but you know I do like it, you know when I'm, when I'm there at the events and I watch it live. I do think it's fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I watched your game last year.
Speaker 3:I guess it was already right.
Speaker 1:It wasn't. That wasn't that a treat. That was fun. Yeah, that was, it was it's. But it actually leads to a point where so as you before you got into it I have my little very professional notes here where my son drew something on the top also. But I said to like you're going through the pickleball and like what the problem is, and I said the pacing is weird, right. Like you get into it and it's it. Everything feels like it's kind of in a rush and you don't actually have the ability to digest and or understand, be told like kind of what's going on. And from where I said it's almost as if the better you get, the slower the entire game gets into. Where you know it's like it's slow during the points and then everyone's in a rush to start the next one again.
Speaker 1:Like so the pacing just feels a little strange, whereas if you're watching Rafa in a fifth set, you know you it's a shorter point, but then you can actually explain, digest and then kind of build some anticipation with the crowd. And in pickle it just seems like the wrong parts are slow and the wrong parts are quick.
Speaker 3:If that, if that makes sense if you compare to tennis.
Speaker 1:I think right like which is going to be the comp, though.
Speaker 3:I mean, have you ever played Padel?
Speaker 1:I've heard it's, I've watched videos and it looks so cool and I have not played it.
Speaker 3:Everyone says it's awesome, it's so much fun, like, but it's the same thing, like it's, it's. I think pickleball is easier, easier, like access to an older generation of people that would like to play, you know, like kind of a racket sport. So I think it's easier than than a Padel or tennis. So I think, for the amateur level, I think pickleball is is, you know, very, very, very approachable. Padel is tough because you use the walls. There's a lot more rotations, there's it's, it's different, a different reading of the game, which is, but it's also so different. But nobody really compares Padel to tennis, right? Whereas with pickleball, like, I feel like there's that comparison all the time of of, yeah, like in tennis they do this and pickleball doesn't do that. Like it's, it's. I don't think we should compare it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's. I think the comparison comes because the real estate on a club level for pickleball makes a lot more sense than tennis courts. So people are losing their tennis courts and you know you got to have someone to blame or something to blame it can't. It can't just be like we need to adjust over over time.
Speaker 3:But do you still play pickleball?
Speaker 1:Not if I can help it. No, yeah, I made my ESPN commentary debut two weeks ago and sitting right there next to Chris Fowler, the only thing that didn't seem like it was kind of something that would happen, naturally, is that we were watching pickleball instead of instead of tennis. So that's where my life's at. I'm actually now a pickleball commentator.
Speaker 3:Listen, I had I donated an hour tennis lesson to the school here for charity and I got the call from the lady and she's like, yeah, I bid it for the the hour tennis lesson, but would you mind if we go play two hours of pickleball instead of tennis? Come on. And I was like, okay, I guess that's where I'm at. So I went to play pickleball with I think it was about eight ladies, I think, and there was a lady that was actually 83 years old and has a tennis background with love. That pickleball is out there now and she gets to. She can't be on a tennis score but was able to play pickleball and so it was actually a lot of fun. But funny that you know, my tennis hit got turned down for a pickleball session. That's a shot.
Speaker 1:As much of a shot to the ego. It was for me that the first time I had any outreach from ESPN was to do a pickleball event. That one would have. That one would have stung me a little bit too.
Speaker 1:Like hey, well, I'm giving you an hour. You know that's great, but also, can we play pickleball instead of tennis? That's a that's a rough one. I will say, though, I I I get in trouble because I say stuff about pickleball all the time and I love it. I think it's a blast to play. I get it. I think it's awesome. I think it's really, really added value to orthopedic surgeons everywhere. But I think I do think it's fun. I do think it's a great intro. I don't think that they need to be treated as adversaries. I think I think it's a nice kind of invite to tennis. Also, I think the more people will play pickleball. It's going to be that, that waterfall effect, where I think naturally we'll have more people interested in tennis if there are more people playing and pickleball and seeing a tennis court.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you, my son, Hank, our daughter Stevie, likes playing tennis and so she'll go. But Hank's like no tennis, don't like it, not into it. So he's he goes and has like a pickleball lesson where he just runs around and has fun. Yeah, hard courts were wet. Clay courts were less wet. He kind of went in on on Stevie's tennis lesson a couple of weeks ago and he could all of a sudden play tennis because he had been playing pickleball for six months, right. So I'm going oh, okay, so that's a good marketing thing, that pickles completely missing, right, it's like starting pickle, use it as a kind of a training mechanism, and so I get a video of him hitting balls and all of that. I'm like, when, when was he able to do that? Like, when does he? When did he start playing tennis? But there was a direct correlation to where now he's kind of on the fence. He's like okay, that was pretty fun, I can play, I can play 10. Anyways, I think they can all live in the same, the same sandbox.
Speaker 3:It's just that one sucks to watch on TV, that's all, that's the only that's the only deal you know keep, keep up the commentary, go to the, to the tennis channel, when they, when they're, when they're live streaming the, the pickleball tournaments, and then start, start coming.
Speaker 1:Start doing commentary. I was thinking about a lot of people. Yeah, I was thinking about doing that for for pickleball. But then I figured like, would would that many people like watch a live stream of a nap?
Speaker 3:Have you, have you ever seen, I didn't know. Have you ever seen that? The video of I think it was Snoop Dogg and Kevin Hart when they're talking over the the?
Speaker 1:Olympics.
Speaker 3:Yes, like that's what you can do, that.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. It was so good, that's actually, that's actually a good idea.
Speaker 1:We've been thinking about the wrong things. Simulcasting tennis matches is not our business, mike in social Sophie, I think it's. I think it's actually just ripping On a gummy no, but on a gummy, oh, that's a step too far. This is that's a step too far. That's a step too far. You can't say that I would never.
Speaker 1:What I do, I do want to a couple of subjects that I want to get to, and you, you probably it's. I got to ask you this in the right way, Cause it's probably something that the thing that gets mentioned all the time and I'm guilty of it is you winning post childbirth and coming back and being arguably better post childbirth, and how does that happen? And now we're seeing, you know, osaka was Niyaki Kerber, we saw Serena. How do you feel about it? And do you get annoyed by kind of being the person that everyone points to as the success story? Because I personally, when you won and Jada was sitting there with the trophy and it's weird to think that that person next to that trophy, is now now has, now has a boyfriend, right?
Speaker 2:I don't like that.
Speaker 3:I don't like that much.
Speaker 1:But how do you feel about it? Are you proud, as I think you should be, or is it like I kind of just don't want to talk about it because they need their lane and I don't want to be the person that anyone kind of points to?
Speaker 3:No, I mean, am I proud about it? I mean it was. I was really proud in the moment. Do I think about it a lot now? No, I don't, I don't, but it's more. I get, you know, like when, like like you, if you bring it up, or when I go to an event and people talk about it, or I bring Jada, like she went to when we played the XOF you was open, you know, I think I brought Jada to that and then people that used to work for the tour that are, you know, when they see her again.
Speaker 3:Like that's when those kind of things get brought up, like I start to talk about it and I'll talk about it with the kids a little bit, but it doesn't get ever get brought up in our household or anything. I mean we don't talk about it like it was a part of my past. But yeah, I mean it is. You know, I don't know, I don't. I've never been like that about victories or wins. Or you know, like I'll get letters or on my social, like people, mothers, that reach out and found inspiration from you know, going to work or whatever it was. Those are nice things to hear that you've, you know, without knowing or without trying, had an impact on people, but it's not that I'm, you know, thinking about that at all actually.
Speaker 1:I don't, I'm, I'm, I never get pissed at you, and I'm pissed at you because I want you to be prouder of it than you are.
Speaker 3:I really do.
Speaker 1:Like I need you to. I think I want you to swell with pride, like the rest of us swell with pride for you. But I think you've, I think you were responsible for it being a possibility. You know, before you did it, it wasn't something that really happened. Frankly, if it happened, it may have happened here and there, but it wasn't like an expectation, right when someone leave the tour at a young age like a, like a Naomi, and it's not like oh well that you know we might, that might be it. Now it's almost this like half expectation that we're definitely going to see someone again, and I think that is because of because of you, even if you want to undersell it.
Speaker 3:It's not. I'm not trying to undersell it, I just the thing is, when I stopped playing and I had Jada, I never thought that I was going to come back Like I never, you know like.
Speaker 3:Serena and Naomi and they all, like they all kind of already said like, yeah, I'm coming back.
Speaker 3:As soon as my body is capable, I'll I'll, I'll try to push it and be ready for a certain certain timeline.
Speaker 3:I didn't do that, like I, I was done playing tennis. I was done with the crazy circus of, you know, traveling on the road and dealing with everything else that comes outside of you know what happens on the time, you know what happens on the tennis court and yeah, and then you know Matt Bryan, you know had a tough time with you know my father, who passed away like he was sick for a year with my sister and I. We took care of him and then had Jada and so a lot of things like life changing things happened in my life, you know, in a short amount of time and and it kind of tennis and then the invitation to play Andre and Steffi at Wimbledon when they had, when they built a new roof on center court. That came and that kind of sparked, yeah, my, my time to like to go and work out again, to go hit and that was the same year that you, that you, that you won the US Open.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you got your spark, like six weeks before you won the US Open or no that? Was earlier, so that was I guess it was May because they were previewing it right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, so my dad passed away in January.
Speaker 3:I got that letter, I think February, beginning of March, to go play at Wimbledon. And so, yeah, just started hitting and and and locally and I didn't want to cause any rumors or I just started hitting a little bit and to play some exhibitions. What was? You know what I had in mind? And then two, three weeks into it, kind of that hunger of competing grew, and and and then I was like, okay, talk to my fitness guy who traveled with me for for most of my career, sam.
Speaker 3:And and I was like, listen, sam, I'm kind of feeling this drive, like from within that I don't want to just play exhibitions, like I want to compete in tournaments.
Speaker 3:And it's like, okay, well, you're going to have to work hard, like if this is what you want to do, and and then thought of of, you know, the Australian Open being the first goal. But then said, okay, let's see what it's like at the end of this year, play a couple of tournaments and get kind of a feel for like that's that's the honest conversation we had to get a feel for what it's like traveling with, like traveling with with a baby, yeah, and getting my routine back, seeing what the levels, like, like on tour and and how I recover after matches, and that was basically the purpose of starting in 09. And then got a wildcard in New York and and was able to win and then crashed after it on the street somewhere in New York completely and the emotions of that whole year, I think, or losing my dad, and it was just you know how you do like all the interviews and stuff afterwards. And then, yeah, got to you.
Speaker 1:So you had a moment when kind of no one was around and, yeah, just my team.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and and. Brian and we just sat and I, just, I could not stop crying. It's like you held it in for so long or you tried to suppress it, those feelings of grief and of the excitement to, but then also dealing with. You know, media always trying to, you know, get something from Jade or pictures or, and you don't want to be rude but you try to, like, block it as off as much as possible. And I think it everything just came together and, yeah, it was too much to handle.
Speaker 1:So mine wasn't. This is this is not a fair parallel, so I'm not trying to make it apples to apples at all my two years after I retired, my father passed suddenly and for me it was this whole. You know, you go through this tennis life and I remember having this moment. I was playing, I had to play an exhibition it was probably a month after he passed and I was playing James, and I hadn't hit a ball, I hadn't done anything, and it struck me, as I was playing a match, I go. This is the first time I've ever played tennis in my entire life while my father hasn't been on earth. Yeah Right, and so I'm sure that had to have some boil up where, like, it's the first, this, this success I'm having, but it's in the, the trail, in the vacuum of, of of this relationship.
Speaker 3:I'm probably projecting a little bit, but I had that moment where you almost tie life memories to certain moments in tennis is kind of this all consuming thing and my dad wasn't like an overbearing tennis parent, like he played soccer, he knew what like being an athlete was about, so he was always very helpful when it came to like the mental side of things and preparation. But I would always like when I was nervous and especially, you know, the bigger like matches I would always give him a quick call like right before you know, if I was just walking to the bathroom just before I had to go to the match, or and and I had a moment at the US Open and I'm walking to the bathroom and I'm dialing his number on my like it was such an automatic kind of you know thing that I would do when I was nervous, just to pick up the phone, even though it's six hours later in Belgium, and you know I knew he would always answer. And as I'm dialing the number, I caught myself and like, oh yeah, like what am I doing? And you know so, and. But then you suppress those moments right, like you're like, okay, I gotta go on court in 10 minutes, like I can't have time to think about what you know my thoughts or and but yeah, I mean I'm happy, like he saw me win. You know we spent, you know, when I won my first championships in LA.
Speaker 3:Like you know, we had incredible moments traveling together and, and you know, just talking and sitting on the plane and yeah, I mean all these things, him sharing his experiences from when he was a soccer player and is like those are the things that now that I'm older, I like they, they mean so much more than when they're still around. I think, or you think, back about those conversations with a deeper meaning. And and now to with the kids. I mean it's amazing like how many times like I catch myself, like even with Jada now, like she's she plays basketball, she played for the Belgian national team last summer.
Speaker 3:Media starts to get in and I'm like, all of a sudden, I'm like I'm realizing I'm thinking like my dad, like the protection mode kicks in and and I love it, like I love it and I'm grateful for it. And yeah, it's, you know it's been I mean almost it's been 15 years since he passed away, so it's I love talking about it. Like I love talking about it, like I love the experience and happy I can do it without you know, the negative feelings or the pain that's.
Speaker 1:I didn't know this is where the conversation was going to go and I'm happy to have been on the other side of it. That's that's. That's, that's a. That's a fantastic thing and I think also, as you're talking about my mind's going, I think like bad stuff can get passed down from generation to generation to generation and it's like a taught behavior. But it's nice to see the counterpoint of you know something good and a great example, and now it's specific to you know a certain sport or a lifestyle. It's nice to see that, as strong or stronger, good can get passed down from generation to generation. I think that is I. That's really cool, I will say as a tennis fan and a fan of yours. That's when you did that.
Speaker 1:It was still, I think, one of my favorite great slams that I've ever watched in my entire life. Like it was. It was just fantastic and I, you know that's kind of one of the iconic images and it has to be weird for Jada to kind of have this image of herself to be normal. But I can't imagine what what that is like for her. You know how much of it she remembers.
Speaker 3:But and it's funny, like her personality is still the same, like she doesn't like to take pictures. She doesn't like like even back then, like she would tell like photographers like no photos. Like she was three years, two years old, no photo like, and I was like alright, like I guess she makes it very clear, you know, and still is like very yeah it is kind of funny to have a picture of someone who's two feet tall going no photos.
Speaker 1:That's a funny, that's just anyways, but I love that story. Thank you for sharing with us Something we've been texting about the last couple of days and you have a I think you have an interesting perspective on it is you know, last week we saw Simone Hall up in court again trying to appeal a suspension. John Wertheim in the last segment went through the timeline of positive tests coaching changes, team changes, kind of this vortex that has gone on around Simone for the last 18 months. You know some people are like well, you know, it is what it is, you take what you take. And then you know some people require or want a little more nuance with the situation.
Speaker 1:She's now suing the supplement maker and it's just been a mess for someone who was generally really liked and respected in the sport for a long time. I'm gonna do the thing that annoys me when I'm on the other side of it and ask a very vague question but what's your take on the situation? And you know, are you upset about it, concerned about it? Are you mad that people don't have the patience to actually deal with it in nuance. What's your take on it?
Speaker 3:All be above, all be above. I think obviously I was very surprised when you hear the news and you know I don't know Simone very well, but I know her well enough, I think, to kind of have a little bit of a judgment that it's something that I do believe that she didn't take anything on purpose to, you know, put her career in a situation like it is today. But I do-.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry to interrupt, but it is a real like. She's a, she would be and it's gonna be. That's another whole conversation. She would have been a first ballot hall of famer number one, like instant vote, no problem in and it's. You're basically asking the question. Would I put that at risk you? Know, at 30 years old. Right, right and.
Speaker 3:I think to me the biggest red flag is, you know, the team, like I have a hard time and I get it. Like I get that she took the supplements and she, you know she has to be aware, like we've been in the situation where you know you get sick or you have to, you have to check everything, like I've had to. You know anything that I had to or that a doctor prescribed. I had just checked with the, you know, with the WTA, with the doping committee, like is this clean? Can I get an approval? If you don't do that, there's always a risk that something could go wrong.
Speaker 3:But in a situation like this and I'm so, like for women, especially when you have coaches that take over your team, where they I mean, I call it manipulating, I don't find another word for it taking control of everything that happens around an athlete I do have a hard time with the fact that you know in this case it's Patrick he does a video, says okay, this was I think it was collagen or something, a collagen product that we had or his team had proposed for her to take, and that she takes it without any hesitation. Where you trust your team, where you trust the people around you that they know that they're doing the right thing, and then that that happens on such a, I have a really hard time that you know that there is no consequence for the team, for like that, it's just the athlete.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you trust your team, he's kind of and we're talking about Patrick Marauderglue where she basically flipped her whole team and he was kind of in control, brought in his people, but it stinks because she's gonna end up being potentially the poster child of a conversation and it's like, okay, well, you know, this guy who comes in is great at self-promotion, right, he's his website. I went on it the other day and it's like 18 different photo shoots. It's like a prepackaged you know situation. I say it's like, it's like puff daddy jump.
Speaker 3:When are you doing yours? When are you doing yours?
Speaker 1:No, it's like, it's like puff daddy. He used to like jump into every music video in the 90s.
Speaker 1:Now that's like him in player boxes, but it's interesting because I kind of feel the same way. I'm not sure what the punishment is and I understand the way that the rules are written we are all responsible but it also bothers me that one there wasn't an immediate I'm out front, not just a video, but I'll take your questions. Like if I would have done that, if I would have been a part of giving someone something and them trusting me with it, I would have been out there trying to take as many bullets as possible for that person, right, like saying I did this, I gave it to her, it's my fault, I understand she's the only one that can pay the price because it's in her body and it potentially benefited her. Yeah, but it is a weird thing and I don't know how to digest it kind of the male, female of it all, but it just seems like it's a tough situation when she's going to court on the same day that he's releasing top five lists on Twitter for servers.
Speaker 3:I agree it sits so wrong with me and I'm trying to put myself in the situation of understanding like, yeah, and I'm curious just for the future of like the WTA, the like everything like this can happen over and over again. We've seen it in the past where you have these coaches that come in and they take over the life of a player and they want to be in control of everything and everybody that talks to the athlete, and it's definitely a huge red flag and I feel really bad for Simona but again, we don't know the whole truth. But I hope that she gets her time and I guess she was able to defend the case last week or something, and she's waiting for the verdict to come out.
Speaker 1:I feel like we're in a long process of I don't know if there's new information coming out, so I feel like we're almost stuck in the loop of getting a more sympathetic ear to deliver the same information, which is rough, and you'd hate to see one of our greats this be it.
Speaker 1:And the general consensus and I don't know if it's right or wrong, and I wrestle with this because I have opinions where someone gets popped and I can name fairly or unfairly.
Speaker 1:I remember Mariano Puerta made the final and played Rafa and this guy became an animal right and then he popped and I'm like, oh, that's not that surprising, whereas when it happened with Simona I don't know Simona right, I don't hi-bye a million of those tennis acquaintances that you see in a hallway but you don't haven't really spent time with someone I was stunned and similar to what you were saying and not dissimilar. It's now we have a couple of women with Maria and Simona, and how does the Hall of Fame take these cases and is there nuance and is there a conversation or is it like other sports where it's just no? If you've had any sort of dalliance with performance, enhancing drugs publicly, is it just over? So I think it's weird. I think Simona is in the unfortunate position of she's gonna kind of set precedent in a bunch of uncomfortable ways, while it seems like no one else involved in the decision making is actually paying the bill for it.
Speaker 3:And that's yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1:That's a downer, to finish on because there was so much good stuff in this conversation. But I would just say if I had to give you one piece of advice right now, kim is just Advil water, maybe a touch of Pedialyte ginger ale a sneaky hangover cure. I'm just saying for the rest of your day at this point, today's written off it's not gonna get any lower than this podcast, but I do think there's time left in the day to make tomorrow a little bit better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks. Well, thanks for the advice. I might I'm not gonna do all the Advil and stuff it's not that bad, I don't feel that bad but maybe do an ice bath or just kind of wake the body up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just saying your little judgey against Advil. There's no downside, but you're the best. You're the first player that we've had on our pod. I thank you. You know, I think, the world of you. Thanks for coming on, thanks for sharing.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Good luck with the show.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Kim, you're the best Thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, it's an awkward transition into things that are kind of like frivolous and funny, off of what Kim Kleiser just shared with us. What an amazing story about the relationship with her dad and him passing and becoming a mother and winning, and I knew parts of that story, but to hear it from her in an extended version blew me away. I didn't know that's where the conversation was gonna go, but that's kind of one of the benefits of this medium is being able to not have to cut anything short because of time, like actually getting into the weeds, and so I thank Kim. Obviously, my love for her is massive. I think she's just the best, and I was a massive fan, even though I was the one kind of conducting the interview. That was really really cool for me. I hope it was cool for all of you.
Speaker 1:We got some more signups now. Now we're gonna get to some fun stuff, guys. Not so serious. Surf Supporter Club. It benefits the Andy Roddick Foundation. Short version is we do a lot of really good stuff for a lot of kids in the Austin Texas area after school summer programming, but we got some new ones Bob F, lauren V, andrew V, sheryl H, richard G, santiago, ryan F, alec P, eric C, corey A, derek L Ben M, nicky D, ronny G, john D, benetta M, diana S and J R Witton. Thank you, 100 bucks. Growth is what we're talking about here. We appreciate you becoming part of the Surf Supporter Club and, by virtue of that, donating to the Andy Roddick Foundation.
Speaker 1:I got in trouble to get on Twitter this week. I basically told a story about a time that I got robbed by a cop in Russia when I was there Russia is kind of everywhere. The point of my story was basically it was so nonchalant, like I'm going to rob you, but I'm a cop, but it's like I wasn't really scared for my life, it wasn't like a traumatic thing until I thought about it more and my point was like let's not normalize crazy shit. If you get robbed by a cop, that's not something that happens most days. And the responses were well, try, living here and doing that. That's our reality. And then I felt bad, right, and then I was like OK, well, I'm not, I'm not trying to celebrate the. I'm not saying I know what it's like to deal with crime or to any of those things. It was more just like let's not normalize it, let's not make it a normal thing.
Speaker 1:The guy came up and it was Come here, where are you from? The US passport? I'd in my safe in my room. How much cash do you have? Three hundred dollars. Give me a cash or go to jail One of the easier decisions I've ever made, by the way so I give him the cash and I go back and I sit in my toe room and I'm like that's, that was strangely, like casual to get robbed by a cop.
Speaker 1:Anyways, five million views and a lot of comments. Later it kind of broke while I was sleeping and a lot of the takes were you know. So what I've dealt with worse, totally not what I was trying to do. The only point was the casual nature of it has become scarier over time because that is not what we should shoot for, where it's just an accepted practice and just another Tuesday and you're getting robbed by a cop in broad daylight in front of a lot of people. It wasn't like some, it wasn't like a side street anywhere. We were out in the open. So I'm sure I pissed people off.
Speaker 1:What my intent was basically like let's not celebrate shitty behavior to the point where it becomes very normal and it's like choosing breakfast on a Wednesday that, and I don't know if you saw what social Sophie and Mike did, but the video they put together where I knocked the shit out of my head picking up some Chipotle so I was tired, I had played tennis, got some spins on the way down, on the way up, I met my door frame and it almost knocked me out to where I was unconscious, like the ring camera footage. You can hear me going oh, oh, oh, as I'm trying to stand up in the door and so our house is full of people. Social Sophie is over Brooks with the kids in the back. There's kids running around. Our house is always like a train station. Producer Mike's over here fiddling with stuff for that I don't know how to pronounce with the cameras. And so I'm never alone in our house, ever. Kids everywhere, people everywhere. Where Brooks parents live literally across the shared patio. They're always over.
Speaker 1:It's beautiful chaos, and the only time I've ever had any sort of privacy is when I'm at the front door going oh, not a single person, not one person came and was like oh, are you okay? Like our dog gets a hang nail. And it's like we shut down operations for four days. It's over. Like the first time we cancel a podcast is because we forgot to feed our dog and we have to, you know, make up for a double time, like it is, all systems go.
Speaker 1:I was literally going, oh, trying not to pass out Everyone. Sophie, sophie, you're laughing you were there, you didn't. You didn't help at all either. You didn't help. No one was there. And then I realized, actually no one gave a shit when they just started making content out of it. It was great content. It was the right thing to do. I'm not mad at anyone. I'm not mad at anyone. Lesson learned Don't talk about getting robbed in Russia, because it doesn't compare to what most people go through. Got it? And two, if you ever want some peace and quiet in this house, just go, while trying not to pass out. Thanks for listening to served. We'll see you next week.