Kim Clijsters and Jon Wertheim join to talk Miami Open, Simona Halep return, Premiere League and Casper Ruud frustration, plus Bad Anniversary Gifts

Andy Roddick talks the early rounds of the 2024 Miami Open in the Racket Rundown before Jon Wertheim joins the show to discuss Miami rain delays, Casper Ruud's mid-match moment with the Umpire and how to pronounce Seyboth Wild. Plus Kim Clijsters joins us to talk more in depth about what it mean to make a comeback in tennis on the professional level and also takes Brooklyn's side on a instagram post.

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Transcript

Andy Roddick: 0:00

and welcome to the served podcast with me, andy Roddick. Hopefully you tuned in and enjoyed our T two offering. But, like all Tuesdays, it's all about the pod, it's all about YouTube and the longer show. As always, we have John Worth. I'm here with you. I'm going to talk about what's going on in the tennis world Some premier tour talk, and we also have my friend Kim Klyster's on again.

Andy Roddick: 0:39

I figured with all of the comebacks. I feel like we say comeback in every match that we watch now for some reason or another, whether it's these superwomen coming back from birth or Nishi Corey coming back from injury, murray, kind of just. You know I'm not going to do all that with Kim Plus. I kind of just tell her Some of the shit that I messed up this week in my life generally. So always important to get someone else's take on that so they can call you out if needed. But, like every Tuesday, we are going to start out with the racket run and then we're going to start out with the racket run Nobody, nobody, nobody, still Fucking nobody. Producer, mike, I think we're closer to somebody. We're close. I think we're close, which probably means next weeks will also be by nobody. There's a lot of people who are not doing it. Uh Little bit weird during the 12 day events, because normally racket rundown is, we kind of just fire through the full results, talk about winners, finalists, stories, but since all of these Masters 1000s, or most of them, are now like eight weeks long each, we're kind of just talking about first and second rounds, some third rounds, by the way. I think we're going to be talking about the innovations.

Andy Roddick: 2:21

On what stood out, I still think Osaka lost to. Caroline Garcia had a great win against Vita Lena. I still think she's on the right track. What's going to be weird is she has created a bunch of momentum. She is winning matches consistently on tour. Didn't litter in a bunch of first round losses in this comeback, but now she goes to the next round. She's going to be playing in the second round. I hope that she can kind of maintain some of that momentum going on to surfaces that aren't her preferred service. But I actually really like what I saw from Naomi Osaka Tough playing a back to back and emotional match against Fidelina. It feels like every single tournament she enters. Now she plays Caroline Garcia. Garcia played great first right tennis. She stands maybe closer To the net than any human I've ever seen before. I still like Osaka to do big things. Let's put it the timeline next 15 months, I think. I really think she breaks out and wins one of these big tournaments.

Andy Roddick: 3:23

No Skava, giving Shviatec problems. It feels like that's her role on tour right now beating her in Australia, losing during Indian Wells, had her against the ropes again last night in Miami. And one of my favorite things when I'm watching a match is when you're equally impressed with both sides of the ball. No, skava is a great player, she's a great defender. She's a great defender. She's a great defense. Over and over and over again, the matchup favors no Skava. And don't go nuts. Not saying that she's better than Shviatec, just saying how the point shape up in this matchup. Shviatec has to work for what she does well. No Skava. Her stock game plays well into Shviatec. She likes attacking the forehand side. She likes hitting it through the court. She likes taking advantage of the ball.

Andy Roddick: 4:12

Not to be critical of Ega, it's actually the opposite. To praise Ega she consistently wins. Even when a matchup it isn't beneficial to her right. She has to make adjustment. She has to play her stock game and then some and defend the forehand side and still just keeps her head down and does it right. We praise her consistently and rightfully for being such a great front player. She's been a great player for a long time in Miami and then kind of all through all of the upcoming Masters 1000s.

Andy Roddick: 4:49

But Weisman said the other night I think he said Ega is 71 and oh, something insane like that when she wins the first set in Masters 1000s. That is insane. I don't. I don't know how to wrap my head around that. It's like when you're talking about you know the big three and how many majors they won in Master Series, like it doesn't even make sense to me. It's just numbers on the page. But props to Egas and the way she's doing it. She's doing it all the time. Even when she's not getting the better of the natural matchup, she stays there, keeps her head down. I love, I love watching her Operate.

Andy Roddick: 5:19

It was, it was a. It was a average day, I'd say, for some of the American men. The other day, I think, fritz going down to Shea botch Voodoo and I got some. I got to talk about his name also in the last few weeks. I have a problem saying it. I'm not good at it. I feel intimidated by it. Uh, I'll get to that in a second.

Andy Roddick: 5:48

But Taylor Fritz is going to want to Put up a big result, right, he had opportunities in Indian Wells Miami Obviously he's one Indian Wells before. This is service. He likes Miami was playing quicker this year. I had to feel like a missed opportunity a little bit. Now goes to the clay. He's, he's good at it. He's he's really good at the last year. Last year has those points coming off, so he's 13 in the world. Big result coming off in money Carlo. Uh season full of a surface that maybe he doesn't dislike but it doesn't do any favors for his game. Interesting to see how Taylor Fritz progresses. Is very literate on the grass once we get there. But he's going to want to kind of put up some results and maybe get his year on the field. He's going to be able to get his ankle injury and it was one of those where he was playing.

Andy Roddick: 6:42

Martin Dam was in control Of the match, had a break in the first set, cruising through service games and then you see him make a move and all of a sudden he's up Pogoing on one leg like it was instantly. No doubt. There's no chance he's going to be able to finish one of those type injuries which really sucks because he played great in Indian Wells, played great in the first set. He's got a lot of pressure on the verge of potentially taking the spot as the number one American, which said on there the other night would mean more if it was you know three or four in the world. Then you know, someone's like just Fritz want to give that up. I'm like well, he would give up the number one ranking if it means Tommy Paul went to eight and he went to nine. I don't see a world where Fritz would be like, no, I want to be the number one American but I want it to be at 13. But I don't think he's going to be making it Um, because I love Francis Tiafo.

Andy Roddick: 7:39

I think he offers so much to the game, I love watching him. Who doesn't Um? I feel like he's searching a bit right now. I feel like he's when you're not confident and you haven't had the results which I think he's batting about 500 or maybe just just under since the U S Open last year when he made quarters and lost to the U S Open he was kind of defensive, sometimes forcing offense. I was doing a highlight on T C Live the other night and he kind of forced the issue and came in, but the approach shot was from like three feet behind the baseline, so that's a waterfall effect, right. Then, all of a sudden, your first volley isn't as close as you want. Someone looks great when they make a passing shot, but it's by virtue of giving up court position.

Andy Roddick: 8:24

Um, so he's going into the clay, which is also his worst surface. Um, it was a little bit of a loss for him to get to O'Connell In Miami, but um, something needs to switch. He needs to get enough matches where he's playing three or four in a row where it becomes natural. Decision making comes natural. The process of playing a point slows down a little bit. When you are on a role, everything becomes a little bit slower, the decisions become a little bit more crystallized and I just feel like Francis is searching a little bit for a better chance. He's just um taking a peek at the top 10 because it's, just frankly, better and more entertaining when he's engaged, winning matches.

Andy Roddick: 9:08

One of the one of the great personalities in tennis. I hope he turns it around right now. Um, he's searching, he is searching Um rublev going down first round, which is to Mahat. It's a it's a weird thing and it's it's funny. The other day he was losing the first round and I realized how he was losing the first round and he's just a little bit more granted, a little bit because he hasn't had the upside where he's making a final of a grand slam, not consistently making semis of grand slams, but the guy rarely has surprisingly bad results. Um, so instead of criticizing a first round lost, it's like an opportunity to acknowledge that that just doesn't happen that often on any surface. You go from hard guy makes quarters, you go to clay guy makes quarters and he's not going to be able to get a good one Anyone, which is cool. Uh, he'll get back to the clay. Uh made one Monte Carlo last year. So a lot of points coming off for rublev there.

Andy Roddick: 10:10

Andy Murray, doing like 80, murray Thig, where he's playing at three hour 40 minute, loses to Mahat, who's an impressive young player, knows one speed, hits it as hard as he can, switches directions every time he's playing. So that's probably going to be a three or four day thing where you're walking a little gingerly, but there's not a lot of people who tear ligaments in their ankle and then are able to play another five or six games. So I'm not too worried about that. What I am curious about with Murray Is what his schedule will be moving forward. You know he has said you know I don't think I'm going to play much past the summer we don't know if that's English summer at Wimbledon, where he has that kind of a sense of excitement, and that's kind of what I hope for as a fan, selfishly. Uh, I'd love for that to be the last.

Andy Roddick: 11:02

It just seems fitting that the last time we see him play would be at Wimbledon, on center court, where he created so much history. He dealt with so much pressure. I played him in a semi there and for two days going in he had the front seven pages of the sports section. Just what kind of bar did he eat during the game? And so I hope he gets that moment.

Andy Roddick: 11:26

But how much is he going to play on the clay? Like it's not doing him any favors. He's not going to make you know, the semis of a master series there, the balance between you know making sure he's ready. Because the thing that just causes me stress when I'm thinking about this whole thing is if he's on the clay and somehow gets hurt and then has to play Queens, which he's won, I think, five times. There are a lot of people who are like, oh, I'm sorry, he's in the first place, this crew is right past us. Um, you just want to make sure that he is is totally dialed for the grass court season, because that is a surface where he can be the most effective. Can he make the quarters of a grass court major? Maybe, and that's the only time that I probably would say Maybe at this point, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him play a challenger and serve it in the first place. He's a professional player with sub quarter, so we'll get a little bit of batting practice to finish out his, his Miami career, which he's listening most determined to go ahead. He's wanted before because he's been that great.

Andy Roddick: 12:37

But it's weird. I've been thinking more and more about this and we had a topic where is some dummy was basically questioning whether this version of Murray, this version of Murray that we've been, we've been watching for the last four years, somehow tarnished his legacy, which I thought was one of the fucking dumber things I've heard. I actually think it's the other way. It's like you can see the physical compromise he brings you in. He was like kind of a polarizing guy for a while, because I can relate to it, because what we did on court is different than the way we probably presented off the court and we were, you know, crazy sometimes and he was like, oh my God, he's like totally on. People thought he was this like Mopey guy and they didn't realize his intelligence, they didn't realize how thoughtful he was and I think Seeing someone physically compromised and knowing that they know what they once were it's it's almost brought fans in like they were going crazy for him in this last match in Miami and that's kind of been standard fair is like when he's in the gutter going through his absolute grind.

Andy Roddick: 13:49

For him, I think it's added to his legacy. I don't think it's taken a thing away. I think it's brought fans and I think it's made him a fan favorite which outside of Great Britain for most of his career. I think people respected him, I think people liked him, but it wasn't this out and out, like you have our support through thick and thin and I think this is created, that I think it's created a connection to the fans which, looking back in 10 or 15 years, I think he's going to be thrilled about. I think these are his legacy years and I think he's. It's been awesome. I think he's going to be thrilled about it. That's fine.

Andy Roddick: 14:20

Also sucks. Um, I'll tell you what I'm wrong. I think I'm right on this one, though. Uh, center Alcaraz, like I, you, you run out of words. You know, center, last match against Greek sport. It's actually very interesting what happened. You're getting to the point where I had to do it when I played Roger. You go out on the field and you're going to play a game that you don't want to play, but you also know that your stock game Won't win.

Andy Roddick: 14:56

Greek sport comes out. He's turning up shots that aren't approached, shots so approaching from one foot in front of the baseline, just absolutely coming out of shoes, up the line, smoking balls, coming in. This kind of kamikaze game where center can't get set. There's an expiration date on on playing that way. Right, you know you can't play that way. You're not going to get that. You're going to get that shot If you're hung in there.

Andy Roddick: 15:22

Loses the first set. Seven, five. There's a rain, delay. He's playing soccer with babies Someone's baby, I know there wasn't a parent around, like I'm like is he babysitting? Does he get paid by the hour? Playing soccer? Goes back on, no problem, still confident you can see how confident he is Gets to a second set.

Andy Roddick: 15:36

Five, all this guy is still coming. He gets that second set. Greek sport is a great game. He's going to get that third set. He's going to get that third, third center ability to just sit in there. Let the guy punch himself out. Uh, in over three out of five sets. That's only better for center. Like executing for that long at that high of a level. That's what the greats do. Senator did it the other day against Greek sport. It was his own sort of chess match. He's still hitting the ball perfectly. It's going to take some sort of psychotic game that he's going to get. He's going to get executed For a while, for an hour and a half. What enough? Six, one in the third. Thank you for your service.

Andy Roddick: 16:26

Greek sport didn't quite get there, but Alcares is in full flight watching him come out First round of Indian Wells when he was searching for confidence and hitting shots and not playing points. One good point. Mrs Four hands loses the first set to our Naldi team. He's playing a ball machine. He's doing a dance at Indian Wells. He's in full flight now comes out against Carboa, carbea's Bayana, uh, and it was like playing into a ball machine. It's like he found that confidence. It's amazing when you see a great searching for confidence, you find that confidence and then it just kind of settles. The airs get cut by 70% because your decisions are clear, you're confident in what you're doing, you have control of your decisions. You have control of your decisions. I'd be shocked if him forever hadn't had that specific conversation where it's like, listen, we're four feet behind, we're not going kamikaze. I know you can punch someone out from there, but like you can also get knocked out when you try doing it. I love what he's doing. By the time you hear this, he will have played Mum fees Monday night. We are shooting this Monday morning as we do, so that one will be full of highlights, I'm sure, um, but I'm sure he's going to be happy to do that. But just love him.

Andy Roddick: 17:44

Evidav plays. A guy with a similar game came Norrie. Both flat backhands, both want extended rallies and he was just better at it. He's hitting this weird little like inside out, like running around a forehand from the middle of a court in Miami is a little quick, like this inside out line thing where it's like going away from you, but flat, like how are you supposed to hit a passing shot on a guy six foot seven, coming in a little bit more, he's going to be able to get a shot. He's going to be a bad decision.

Andy Roddick: 18:15

He makes inside of a point. He might lose points because guys have more fire power at you know, and by guys I mean like center and Alcaras, uh, but it doesn't make mistakes. Like, if you have a junior player, you can show them Alcaras, but they might not be able to reproduce that. That's like a once in a lifetime you know, I was before. Now it seems like it's once every, like seven year generation thing. But uh, and other players you know it has all the shots can punch you out on both sides. Medvedev doesn't do any of that. Like, if I'm a coach and I want to teach a junior player, uh, how to play tennis, I haven't go watch. Medvedev Doesn't make a mistake, doesn't have the biggest shot on the court. In most of his matches, footwork is unbelievable. Not the fastest guy, like he wouldn't win 100 yard dash against half the tour, but puts himself in position every time, makes the difference. He's been great.

Andy Roddick: 19:10

Uh struggled in Indian Wells like she's so good at playing bad tennis, and I mean that in the most flattering way possible. She's playing good tennis in Miami. Score line. Support her Danielle Collins Coming through wins one and two in her most recent match. She keeps playing like this. Uh, she might not retire Katie Bolter on a roll. Kalina deserves credit coming back from a set and five to down on the court, but wins are wins. Uh say, but Vig, you're gonna have to play. What? How you pronounce his name like I don't. I've been dying all week on tennis channel and of course they give me his highlight every time. Do you have it?

Jon Wertheim: 19:47

Zibet Vuge.

Andy Roddick: 19:49

Zibet Vuge, zibet Vuge, jige Zibet Vuge. It's it's Zibet Vuge. Yeah, as, as you know, I'm a big fan of Zibet. It's like it's like it's like it's like it's worthwhile. Is I botched Vuge? And now everyone's taken liberties. It's like a curbed your enthusiasm episode, right? It's like Someone realized they were saying it wrong, over corrected, and now it's everyone has like their own flair because they are scared of getting it wrong. Like I've been on air, like I'm like I don't know, is everyone's like shy?

Andy Roddick: 20:31

Subbujed did. But the thing is you're disrespectful, you're a shy botch Vuge, but it's spelled wild. Like it, I give me a second Like, don't cancel me right away. Like if I if I read it as W, I, l, d and I say wild, you could see where I got it. Like you could. It's not as if it's so out of bounds, like I'm taking liberties. It's Vuge and everyone is so scared of saying it wrong that now we've created this whole thing and said that Vuge is.

Producer Mike: 21:06

It's basically like direkt antibiotic examining波. Spectator is is adding syllables were just adding syllables.

Andy Roddick: 21:11

You know, we got. We got John waiting for us. Let's, let's ask John, let's bring in it. Is John worth? I'm here, is he on? Let's bring him in. And, as always, Uh, jonathan worth, I'm coming in Now.

Jon Wertheim: 21:30

I? I feel like this is a trick question. What is that spell? If I don't say wild? What am I setting myself up for?

Andy Roddick: 21:38

Okay, this is the welcome to my life. The last week Zhaibach Vujid is how you spell, sabeoth wild, apparently. And it's out of control, right it's. There's shaming mechanisms in place when you don't say it correctly, like I. Basically I was on one and Mike when I was doing the open and Mike was like, okay, john's here.

Andy Roddick: 22:01

Before I'd spent a minute on Zhaibach Vujid and now I feel like I'm in a curb, your enthusiasm episode, where every commentator is like doing it their own way, like with their own flair and like kind of like. I feel like commentators love saying someone else's name, but in their native, like the native way to say it. And I'll tell you I'm a little offended. I'm going to reverse, cancel this shit. You ready? Because not one time ever in my entire fucking career did I go play in I don't know, let's call it France. Do you think they ever tried to say Roddick, rondi, roddick, and they really celebrated it. Right, it was like. It was like I'm an idiot because I don't like I'd go over there and be like is my name not Roddick? Like maybe I don't know, like I think I'm out of my mind. So I said I said something crazy and I said say both wild and everyone's like whoa what, what did you do? You are getting cocky with your podcast.

Jon Wertheim: 23:07

Your, your anti-portuguese bias, is it's really like?

Andy Roddick: 23:10

we all. It's like only only on on tennis channel and ESPN, Do we say.

Producer Mike: 23:15

and then we go to Eurosport and like Roddick and Roddick, Remember we did stuff with the UFC when it was Rhonda Rousey. All the Portuguese and Brazilian fighters say Honda housey, yeah, that's like I don't.

Andy Roddick: 23:29

Here's my point. I went over there and not once did I care about Rondi Roddick. So just give me a fucking break. I'm learning. All right, just give me a break. So that was my. Apparently that's been the most important story for me this week. Good thing we never hear.

Jon Wertheim: 23:41

Steven Colbert used to have this bit about our teammate Tim Kleister's and called her you know, kim, of the superfluous Jane and had a little bit you would have. You would have about a field day. Wait, let me ask you a serious question.

Andy Roddick: 23:55

You know I used to say, john, I'm sorry, I don't want you to dismiss this as not serious. This has been very serious, Okay.

Jon Wertheim: 24:02

We are going to. We're going to have a dissertation about the what do you do? Serious question. What do you do when you're a player and occasionally you get asked about Guillermo? You know you don't want to be the ugly American and box someone's name, but you also don't want to be, you know, do the Barcelona T8. Like, how do you deal with this as a player when you have to refer to colleagues who have a tricky?

Andy Roddick: 24:26

names. I don't know if there was like an avoidable first name. That was. That was great. You know, like, like, for instance, Guillermo Kanyas, we all get really lazy right Like we, after five years on tour. His name was Willie. Exactly, His name was Willie. Like Yit Zhu Wang, Jimmy Wang, we all get, we just be, we just get, we just get super lazy. And not one player cares. By the way, Everyone else is going like Twitter fingering and like getting crazy and the whole thing and like it's like, oh, it's Willie and Jimmy, no problem.

Jon Wertheim: 25:04

I think the the young Brazilian player you referenced. Can we just call him spanky and get all of their lines?

Andy Roddick: 25:09

No, not now, not in 2024. Nope, we got to, we got to, we got. We got to criticize. We got to criticize someone for daring to pronounce W I L D wild.

Jon Wertheim: 25:21

I want to hear a bread neighbor, one of our colleagues, just getting in reverse and see, you know, a vooch error by wild. You can't say a wild error by boots, Cause it's the same spelling on two, two words.

Andy Roddick: 25:33

I'm glad that a 60 minutes correspondent has as much problem with it and puts as much thought into it as I do. Cause Lindsay Davenport, one of my favorite people ever. She's just avoided the whole thing. She's like the young Brazilian.

Producer Mike: 25:45

She's all she calls him now the young Brazilian.

Jon Wertheim: 25:46

She's a pro at that. She's a genius.

Producer Mike: 25:48

She says.

Andy Roddick: 25:49

The other night I was like she's so much smarter than me.

Producer Mike: 25:50

The closed caption. It's like butchered on it too, because I had the closed caption on the other night watching it. That's what we need to do, cause it makes no sense.

Jon Wertheim: 25:57

Just put the, just put the subtitles and we all get on with our lives.

Kim Clijsters: 26:00

No, you're right, you're right.

Jon Wertheim: 26:02

Lindsay Stahl, skewering Jim Jordan, and we're talking about boots versus wild.

Andy Roddick: 26:07

Exactly, exactly. I kind of want to get straight to it, because you've had an interesting week on the heels of us talking about potential Saudi deals, grand slams unifying to create a different tour. You actually got to sit down with one of the main players. Who was it and what were your takeaways?

Jon Wertheim: 26:28

I spoke with Lou Scheer, who's CEO of the USDA but also is clearly becoming the front facing figure for the premiere tour. You'll recall from previous episodes, this is the. This is the great disruptor. This is sort of the four majors getting together, which is a stop and pause moment. We don't often see that. Not a typo, not a verbal typo. The four majors, all the same page. They're taking then the next 10 events the thousands are combining them. They're adding one, likely in the UK, and they're basically creating a 14 event tour. Throw in a team event and a year in finals. These will be.

Jon Wertheim: 27:06

You know, this is a proposal, mind you. So this isn't necessarily a dud deal, but the idea is tennis needs to get streamlined, tennis needs to be easier for fans to find and there's way too much clutter. We're going to condense everything 14 events open to the top 100 or 200 or so players. All events will be mixed, equal prize, money outdoors. I mean, look, there is a lot to like. There are also a lot of questions of legal hurdles. You know we could pick this apart on a number of issues. I just want to sidebar. Like you and I, we love forehands and backhands and match results. Players making runs.

Jon Wertheim: 27:43

It doesn't always have to be about tennis politics, but also this is enormous. I mean we talk about disruptions. I mean this is for a sport that doesn't necessarily like to do change. This is absolutely seismic. I mean, this was just completely blow tennis up as we know it. So this is what proposed on the table. The other, which I hope to talk with someone on the record about soon, is this Saudi billion dollar proposal, which keeps the tour model intact but also will be a bit of a disruption. But this, this premier tour, which has been much discussed and again, some of it makes a lot of sense and some of it, I think, would be absolutely potentially catastrophic. So I spoke to Lou, he made his case, I included some of the Q and A online and, yeah, I mean, if this goes through, this will completely change tennis. Whether it's for better or for ill, this will be unrecognizable.

Andy Roddick: 28:37

Yeah, I read through the interview and, by all accounts, lou has a great reputation. I don't know him well, you know there's certainly a reason and a room full of very smart, intelligent, kind of macro issue thinking people why he's. He's the one out front talking to you and kind of representing their vision. I under. I agree with a lot of his points. Right, I agree, you know, if you can give players a guaranteed off season of two and a half three months, how often as a player did I want that and how often do we hear players talking about that?

Andy Roddick: 29:18

Now, it is absurd that the best players on earth have what is essentially an 11 month season. Right, like if you, yannick center played through Davis Cup last year and then had four weeks off before starting his Australian Open. You know his maiden Grand Slam run, where he's having to not play beforehand just to recover in time and make sure he's match fit for it. So the schedule in tennis is more demanding and absurd on a lot of different levels. You know, I hear. You know, I hear NFL teams talking about, oh, that West Coast time change. I'm like man, you think that's bad. You should try Memphis in Dubai. You know, memphis on a Saturday and then I've literally been asleep in a player's lounge face down in Dubai and my coach kicked me and said you're on, that's real. So there are inefficiencies in the calendar, right, and it's gotten to the point where everyone is racing for space and 20 years on, that race for space has manifested and there is no off time for players to. Actually it is short-sighted injuries when we have all the technological advances to get people back sooner, right, so we're seeing players play longer. I largely think that's by virtue of. You know, a knee operation used to be like a guaranteed you're out six months and now it's like four weeks. But we do need to kind of take the long view on our stars. So I understand what he's saying. It is hard to follow, it is weird, when simultaneously there's an event in Rotterdam with Cinder and then there's one in Rio and Alcaraz and you can't keep up with who's winning, what, where, why, when Davis has been fucked for a long time and impossible to follow. So I understand the reasoning for a lot of this right. I understand the premise for conversation. I'm not one who is still defending blockbusters. Stuff changes. We need to adapt, we need to get better.

Andy Roddick: 31:17

The couple of questions that I have in the fallout from reading your interview is what happens to lower level events? Right, so 500s and below? Is that just open season? Like, who takes those over? Right, so are in. Is that just left in the dust?

Andy Roddick: 31:32

Cause, as much as we complain about not having an off season, you're also going to want more than most players are going to want, more than 12 or 14 events. It's just the way it is right. I understand the money, but you need those reps also. Like I was someone who, the more I played, the better I played. I wasn't, you know, one of these Novak Roger types where you know they get hurt, show up six months later and win a slam straight out of the shooter. Like most of earth doesn't operate that way. So what happens to the smaller tour events? And then the ATB tour is the one who supports the Challenger tours and the like. Can you make it tours? Do they have any? Do they have a care in the world or a plan for what happens with the fallout from this deal at lower?

Jon Wertheim: 32:19

levels. I asked that question and honestly I did not. You know, I probably could have pushed a little harder. I'm not sure I got much of a response.

Jon Wertheim: 32:28

There is this sort of you know, developmental tour for players who don't essentially get their tour card. So the guys Wibbentwo, who are, you know, 101 to 300, we'll call it and presumably they would play what are now 250s and 500s. But that's a real problem. I mean, the whole theory here is sort of less is more. The top four events, the four majors plus six of the thousands, make an excess of 80% of the revenue. So you've got more than 100 events but 10 of them are driving more than 80% of the revenue. Something's not working efficiently here. So streamlined, streamlined, streamlined scarcity has its virtues. The problem is that first of all we're either killing off or demoting more than a hundred tournaments here.

Jon Wertheim: 33:12

These events they've been in these communities. I mean I started the DC event even in the Middle East. I was looking it up because apparently the folks who run Doha in Dubai are furious about Saudi Arabia sort of jumping the line. You know there's been an event at Doha for 1993. So for 30 plus years these guys have been loyal. They held sanctions. They bought and sold sanctions. I mean, imagine if you're the person who paid millions and millions of dollars for Newport and all of a sudden you realize your event is being demoted. So I mean I can't imagine, if this premiere tour happens, what this is going to look like legally. You're basically blowing up the tour model that's been tennis for decades.

Jon Wertheim: 33:53

I mean I'm curious. Let me throw a question to you. We've heard very little of the. This has been a lot of the guys wearing the Breone suits in the conference rooms with the Orchid on their room service training. We haven't heard a lot from the players. What do you think? Do you think the players are going to go for this? I mean it sounds, you know, basically the pitch is basically you're going to play these 14 events anyway. You'll double your money and you'll get a guaranteed off season and you'll get a guaranteed buffer week or two weeks before and after each major. The hitch is there ain't going to be a Mets and a Dallas and I mean just there won't be an event in Japan. Japan is a pretty big market. There are all these events in South America that we love. Tennis won't really be going through South America. I'm curious from your perspective, do the players go for?

Andy Roddick: 34:42

this. It depends. I have so many questions that I've written down. As you're talking, you said there's separate tour from one to 300. Well, if there's not a rank, if there's not a tour for people below 300, how the hell do you know someone's 300? Like I don't know how you break into that. You know I don't know, like it's so on and so forth. There has to be levels of progression. You don't just start at 70 and it's like, okay, so you have to spend a year on the lower tour to qualify. Well, does Alcares win the US Open two years ago by that metric? I don't know. 80% of revenue comes from four events. What percentage of major league baseball revenue comes from five teams? I don't know. I bet it's a decent comp.

Andy Roddick: 35:29

One of the questions that you asked was basically what happens to the TV contracts, and I'm regurgitating as I remember it, so correct me where I'm wrong. But the gist of the question was somewhere along the lines of what happens to the TV contracts that the ATP tour has. Are they going to be in debt? Are they going to get sued? Are they going to like? There's a million questions, and his answer to that was basically their inefficiencies. Right, so I'm going. Yeah, but you didn't actually answer the question and it sounded like kind of tough shit. This is capitalism. This is what we're doing. Money talks, bullshit walks and we have the slams. So I like the idea.

Andy Roddick: 36:15

I'm not against changing tours, making a new type of model for the tour. What I don't like is the ATP working on something somewhere, the USTA working on something somewhere, and all of a sudden it feels like a bit of a race when a lot of major issues haven't been solved for I don't want to say haven't been thought about, but haven't been solved for and now all of a sudden we're going on record with these ideas. This isn't happening behind the scenes. This isn't something where it's like we need time behind the scenes in board rooms, meeting with players doing all this. It seems like the players are getting the information from your interviews and from our uninformed podcast and from other sources of media. So I like. I don't disagree with his talking points, which he was intentional about repeating, right, but I just have so many questions about who gets left behind. What does that look like? And then, is it just the Wild West outside of these 14 events? And so I have more questions. I've laid those out. What am I missing?

Jon Wertheim: 37:38

No, I mean, keep in mind there's a whole separate model here. If it's nap time, let me know and we can edit this. You got to be really inside. Keep in mind. There is a whole other model here which Andrea Godenzi is leading, and this is basically Saudi Arabia's. They're in for a billion and maybe more. I haven't gotten great clarity on how that will be allocated and distributed, but we got a bag of a billion dollars. We're not relying on consulting groups, projections. There is a billion dollars on the table and the condition is Saudi Arabia wants an event.

Jon Wertheim: 38:14

This is the other model and it seems to me the obvious compromise here is you give Saudi Arabia their event. You make sure it doesn't come in January because, as we've discussed, a lot of this started because Craig Tiley, who now has sort of been strangely absent from these discussions. A lot of this is all because Craig Tiley got worried the Saudis were in the clave January, his Australian open run up was going to get thwarted, and so he went on the offense and tried to come up with a separate Premier tour model. Anyway, it seems to me the obvious compromise is you take the billion dollars there's sports washing concerns, you'll have to negotiate. You give Saudi Arabia an event, you make sure it's not in January. So Craig Tiley gets his win and gets his. He gets to play some defense. And we spare ourselves the idea of blowing up the tours. We spare ourselves the idea that they're going to be dozens and dozens of events that are either going to disappear or get demoted.

Jon Wertheim: 39:09

Can you imagine this is a really boring topic. Can you imagine the lawsuits you spend to whatever it is $20 million for a sanction? Or you are an ATP member who thinks they're getting a nice, healthy six-figure pension every year? Oh, wait, there's no ATP. You're tennis channel, bspn. You've got to deal with the tours, but wait, the tour is basically, can you imagine the litigation that's going to come out of this?

Jon Wertheim: 39:34

And to me becoming clear, there's an obvious solution, which is you take the Saudi billion dollars. You may have to hold your nose, you may have to ask for some sort of conditions you don't want. I mean, if you saw the story of the chess player today. I mean, clearly there are some real ethical concerns and they have to be addressed, but I just think that we all love change. I mean, ironically, here we always say, oh, tennis is treading water and every other sport innovates and tennis stands still and it's subject to disruption.

Jon Wertheim: 40:06

And here these guys come and say all right, I'll blow it up here. You want to start from scratch here. These are the events of big money. Players want time off, the calendar is a mess and I'm going to give you an answer, and everybody says wait a second, the change is too radical. You're blowing up my backyard event. So I do sympathize a little bit with this premiere tour, because people ask for change and they finally get it and they say wait, that's too radical. But I also think the obvious solution here is you have a meeting of the minds. You figure out everyone plays nice together. You somehow combine the men and the women and the Andrea Gordensi model, which is basically this one vision, where you take the Saudi billion dollars, you give Saudi Arabia a big thousand event and everybody gets on with their lives. I think that is probably going to be where this ends up.

Andy Roddick: 40:51

Yeah you say can you imagine the lawsuits? I can't. I can imagine competing tours who don't have much common ground, who strike some deal where nothing has really changed. But it's becoming more and more obvious that the reason they struck a deal is because neither side wanted to go through discovery. It legal discovery.

Jon Wertheim: 41:19

Ask your golfing, but ask our friends on the PGA tour out there.

Andy Roddick: 41:22

Exactly that's what I guess. That's what I was referencing. The other thing that keeps going through my mind is you keep mentioning the billion dollars from from the Saudis, which is it's nice to have a dollar amount in hand and then it's very transparent on where it goes, what it does. Here's what we're giving to the players. You also said double the money. Does that money per tournament? Is that prize money per tournament? If there's 14 events and you can't play 24, is that actually a significant bump? I don't know.

Andy Roddick: 41:50

The other thing when you keep mentioning the billion dollars, I'm going in my mind and you asked basically what was going to fund the slam version of a new tour, the premier tour, and he said we might not need to take money, but we have talked with enough private equity funds. What fucking number would someone pay to own all four grand slams? The US open makes as much money in two weeks as the Yankees make in half a season of baseball. What is that number? What are? What is Wimbledon worth on the open market? What is the US open worth on the open market? And they sure as hell, if they do take money, better be transparent about that number and they better be transparent about how much of that is going back into the players' pockets, because we could say, well, double your money, but we're giving you two billion and we sold them for 12.

Jon Wertheim: 42:50

Once again, it's striking to me how the player's voice has not been represented here. I think the sort of assumption of all this is the players are going to go where the money is and if you tell whether it's Novak Djokovic or the guy who's number 100, listen, you're going to be in Cincinnati on this date and we'll double the prize money.

Andy Roddick: 43:07

Maybe Cincinnati. Maybe it's open market for those 10 events. We're assuming that it's still Cincinnati.

Jon Wertheim: 43:14

Well no, because they're the ones who ultimately have to ratify the 10 events and the man. We could do an hour on this. The good news is this is a fluid situation. Our meetings, both for the Godense model and for this premiere tour that are going to be happening in Madrid, there is I mean, there does seem to be a bit of a ticking clock.

Jon Wertheim: 43:34

When the Saudis say, you know what we don't want to live golf situation, that was a disaster. But boy, this tennis sure is balkanized. When they throw out their hands and say you know what? We're going to park that billion dollars in UFC, I wonder if leverage doesn't change. But this is a fluid situation. I know players with fans would much rather be talking about Ega and Coco and Cider and Alcaroz, but I also feel like this is not some little tweak, this is not hey, we're going to change the date of the Acapulco event and move it to the summer, which actually did happen, by the way. This is absolutely seismic. This is existential for tennis. I feel like news value, I feel like we need to stay on this, just because if this ends up happening, the sport is going to change dramatically and there's a lot of line gear.

Andy Roddick: 44:26

I am pro change Absolutely, I think, tennis forever and they ruin Davis Cup because of it. It's like if you just try to tread water long enough, you drown. So I'm not the person that says anything should ever be done because that's the way it's always been done. I think that's antiquated. I don't. I don't think it lives their life that way. Progress is the goal.

Andy Roddick: 44:52

One thing I feel even stronger about is transparency, and so I hope that the players get that throughout the process. I think as long as it's transparent, as long as it's on the up and up, as long as they feel at least included, I would guess that most things could be solved for. But also the players that are not. Everysome of the closest friends in my life are guys that weren't in the top 100. The top players are still going to listen to players that could be out of a job or not know where they're going, or you have to have a support system to build up the top 100 players, and it's imperfect in its current form. I would love to see someone solve for some major questions outside of the elite events. In what somewhat feels like a letdown and it would normally be big tennis news, the ATP calendar for 2025 came out. What are the highlights? What are the lowlights?

Jon Wertheim: 45:53

Well, I mean, keep in mind, what we're talking about isn't going to start one way or the other until 2026.

Andy Roddick: 45:58

So I think people the Saudis yeah, the New Tour.

Jon Wertheim: 46:01

The Premier Tour of the Saudis. So we've got 18 months here. So I think this calendar came out. I think people were looking for big radical pigtail-tail signs. Nothing made. A couple of events we're missing. A couple of events got moved. You talk about the offseason. If I'm reading this right, the next-gen final in Saudi Arabia. So these are the kids, right? This is the next generation of stars. In theory. These are people who need their rest, who need to pace themselves. The next-gen final is the second week of December, presumably ending around Christmas Eve. So we talk about it one month off season.

Jon Wertheim: 46:35

If you are a talented 19-year-old, you get like a one-week-long.

Andy Roddick: 46:38

I changed my mind. Blow it all up.

Jon Wertheim: 46:40

Blow it all up exactly. Can I say just on a bit of a, On a 10,000. On a happier note, big picture you work in media as we do, and it is not a growth industry these days. The one thing I think we need to remember here is this is going to add money, and presumably I mean who knows what for, but presumably this is going to help increase the tennis ecosystem. Right, People want to invest. This is about growth. This is about monetizing at a healthy amount. We've got all these rosy projections. We've got a billion dollars from the Saudis.

Jon Wertheim: 47:16

Big picture is this is about tennis growing and not shrinking. It's just a question of what is that growth going to look like? How is it going to be distributed and is this sport still going to be a-recognizable and be palatable to fans and to players? But I do think we need to. It's very easy to sort of tennis is so screwed up and these guys are ruining the sport, and what's going to happen to my backyard event? I do think. A little bit of pause to say probably a good thing overall that people are looking to park their money in tennis, that people see this as more monetized and not something you're going to need to manage to client is probably worth mentioning.

Andy Roddick: 47:52

Yeah, I think that's great. And listen, one of the biggest issues that is not a new problem is the power levers in tennis all exist in silos and operate as almost separate businesses the ATP, which provides the rankings, which provides the infrastructure, which basically is the year-long support system for what you see during major moments. Right, it creates the stage. We make predictions based on the ATP tour before they go to a Grand Slam. But it is a hard business for the ATP. They make most of their revenue on ATP World Tour Finals, which they have to put on at the end of the season when players are exhausted to make a lot of the other events work. So these are real issues that need to be addressed.

Andy Roddick: 48:38

I hope that it isn't viewed as a race to the finish line and because of that we end up with an irresponsible result. The thing about it being popular, wanting to be monetized, is fantastic. I just hope that everyone is responsible and honest about the parts of the game that they want to see benefit from a potential deal. I understand that the slams are worth a gazillion dollars and those are some major chess pieces to move. I just hope they care about the rest of it, similar to ESPN buying all of the slam rights and then saying, because we have the slam rights, we have the biggest fish, we don't actually need to support the tennis media system leading into those slams. It's like we cut out all the other stuff and we're going to take the prize pieces. I hope that doesn't repeat itself in these bigger deals.

Jon Wertheim: 49:35

Do you like French cuffs when you are done with this podcasting thing and ready to leave your hovel. I see a leadership position in your future.

Andy Roddick: 49:44

Oh God, You've got to pick your wardrobe In many other things. What are we talking about, JW? What have you got for?

Jon Wertheim: 49:52

me. No, it's midway through a tournament. This is the way these things always go right In the majors. Of the same way, the first few days it's about controversy, sometimes artificial and constructed, sometimes legitimate. We've got a lot of weather talk. We're like old people in South Florida A lot of talk about the weather, a lot of weather app conversation. You know what's going to happen by the time the finals roll around. We're going to remember this for some great tennis, some great matches. You know what ever remembers the first 10 days of the majors, when the sky is always falling in and we always have a controversy? But here we are. So midway through the tournament, we've got Kaffirud Just another hot headed Norwegian.

Andy Roddick: 50:33

Right, yeah, right. It seems there are bigger cliches than the guy from Norway popping off. That was a joke. That was a joke Way to qualify. All the best jokes need to be explained.

Jon Wertheim: 50:44

Never a good side. We've got a lot of meteorology talk right. We've got a lot of Al Roker weather center. We've got some upsets. But you know this is kind of the way these tournaments go right. The first few days are a lot of hand-breeding and everything's down wrong. By the time the finals roll around, it will all be forgot.

Andy Roddick: 51:04

One of my favorite things is that I'm watching the other night and the radar just looks like you should give up on the day. You should absolutely just give up. But what people don't understand is like if they get a match played, there's no refunds. There's no refunds. So that matters, believe it or not. You can't simultaneously complain about the players and all the facilities existing in containers and then tell them they should cancel the tournament at 11 am and not have any proceeds to invest back into the tournament that day. So Coco came in, got through a match in about 52 minutes, saved the day. Saved James Blake for the day.

Jon Wertheim: 51:43

They got their session in. No, I don't. I mean, do you want to talk a little bit about what it's like from a player perspective? Fans bright and they look for shelter, but you guys are the ones who have to go on and off and try and preserve momentum and figure out when you're going to eat, nap and stretch. You want to do a quick riff on a little player and a raid to lay has to go through.

Andy Roddick: 52:04

Yeah, and that's the biggest thing is food right, like the Sabalenka-Badosa match from the other day was scheduled for 11 am, I think they went on at six, but at any moment they and now with these like super court dryers, you know, and pulling the covers off. I always think of Wimbledon as the thing, because that was kind of the place that most often had that like light rain, where they go. Okay, they would change it up before time, like 25 minutes at a time for like 18 hours. So you, you're supposed to play it to, let's call it to, and at one o'clock they go. Well, it's, you know, it's not before two. I'm like it's a scheduled, that's, this is scheduled time, and so then at two o'clock they'd go. You're not before two, 15. Great, that's great, thank you.

Andy Roddick: 52:52

But in Miami, like you can't warm up. There's no indoor courts, there's no indoor facilities. Timing food like you could be on within 45 minutes at any moment, starting at 11 am, and you end up going on around 6 pm. So, timing food, warm up, you probably warm up 16 different times, but that's also not good. You warm up 16 time. That's kind of just like a workout at that point. So it is a little brutal and then you know, keeping your your wasn't as big of a deal when I was playing, but I'm assuming looking at a screen for 10 hours probably isn't good. I heard someone mentioned that that's not the, that's not the one. So I always say, like I don't know that I retired from tennis. I think I retired from waiting. Right, I'm waiting around to play a night session at 10 30 at night. I just can't my least favorite thing, to the point where I go back and play his little exos now and something goes wrong and I'm waiting. I'm like God, normal life, I can choose what to do with my day. Yeah, it's just, it's just, it's just tough. I mean, it's easier, I think, when the forecast is so bad.

Andy Roddick: 54:00

And your third on, you know you're probably not gonna. You're not in a rush to do anything because you know you're probably not gonna play. You know they were hoping to just get in one match. Maybe you start a match, but yeah, it's.

Andy Roddick: 54:12

I will say, one of the benefits of these longer events, these 12 day masters, 1000 events, is you're not gonna get backed up. Everyone's like oh, the matches they're gonna have to squeeze in tennis. I'm like, oh, like where you have to play seven matches in nine days like normal. Yeah, right, right, well, padding built in there. Yeah, totally. So it's not a matter of finishing the tournament, it's not like a slam, where it is a massive ask to play three out of five, day after day after day after day. Um, I, we got the year I won the open. We got backed up to where you everyone was playing four batches in four days. Best of five is like it's brutal, like it's borderline impossible. You get that stack up at Wimbledon sometimes, but you know whether it's weather. You deal with it as best you can. What do you make of the Casper? Rude stuff, like you mentioned it quickly. But the thing that was surprising was one if I have general tournament infrastructure concerns, I'm not sure I go to the chair empire.

Jon Wertheim: 55:06

But the sun here, uh, not here. The sun here, go to guy and get matched. That's not where you'd raise those concerns.

Andy Roddick: 55:11

Well, I love it. He's like you can go talk to Andrea like God ends. He's like okay, so wait, here's it. So you're going to go complain about the tournament infrastructure to the umpire and the umpire is going to go try to find the CEO of the ATB tour to tell them about the average conditions for the players at at the Miami open. Like uh.

Jon Wertheim: 55:32

I think I'm not having another sport. We have a whistle in the middle of an NBA game, with everyone with the free drill line, and you're telling the official to go go call Adam Silver because we need to change our schedule.

Andy Roddick: 55:43

Yeah, can we? Can we? Can we get Adam Silver on the line? I don't like the temperature in the in the in the locker room was a little little chilly, so if you could just get on that ASAP that'd be great. But it was weird because Casper's not we're joking, but he's not a complainer. Like he's not someone who's a hothead, he's not. You know, fognini does this. It's like, okay, he's just on one today, like he's just you know he's, you know in wrong side of the bed situation rude. Is not this kind of irresponsible, wingy kind of complainer?

Jon Wertheim: 56:14

Yeah, I, I think you're right Also.

Andy Roddick: 56:17

Uh, it that matters, right I mean having a mid-dictory has made me a complaint is different from Casper, totally, you're a complaint.

Jon Wertheim: 56:23

I I did think the the how much of this, honestly, and I wish there were some analytics for this. I mean, we, you like data, I like data. Tennis sometimes frustrates us how. I don't know if you can quantify this, but a bunch of what goes on during a match is just a player offloading aggression and frustration. And when Andy Murray yells in his box, it's not because he's really mad, it's just a way to offload. And with Casper Rude he's bitching about towels, it's not because he really has this, this heartfelt, uh, antipathy about the way the tournament's run. It's just a way to offload frustration. Again, when your neuro chemistry is bubbling up and you're in the heat of battle and you do some cookie stuff, how, how much of it is that? And if you let the guy calm down for five minutes after a match, you would have a much different taste.

Andy Roddick: 57:09

Oh for sure. Uh, I tell a story this week Uh well, I won't ruin it, cause the conversation with Kim, I think, is half to this, but we prerecorded it where I basically said I snapped in, uh, my club morning Dingles session and wrapped a racket around a pole, like that's not normal, like that's not you know. So I think there is some buildup. Like it's like if you're having the worst day ever and you order something, like we're out of that, you're like, uh, like it's not that big of a deal, but, depending on the circumstances, you get a little piss. Uh, yeah, I mean, I think there's probably truth to whatever someone says. Like you feel it.

Andy Roddick: 57:47

But uh, you don't really see many people just go off when they're winning. Um, I think that's. I don't, think that's a small part of it, um, but yeah, I mean, I think some of it is. You know you're, you're trying to, as athletes at a certain moment in time, we're trained in denial, like, we are experts in denial. Oh, you've lost three, three matches in a row, yeah, but I, I, I practice great. Yesterday, I really feel like things have turned around. The best stuff's ahead for me. It's like. But like, nothing in your recent history suggests that that's the case, you know. But we are kind of programmed, uh to think uh certain ways and we're just uh, we're just a little psychotic out there, john.

Jon Wertheim: 58:28

Athletes, I would say, are the best storytellers. Right that nobody believed in us? And well, I don't understand. You guys were a 15 to one favorite. We shook up the world. Yes, now you've proved the doubt was wrong. Like, are you kidding? Everybody wanted to do that Athletes are great.

Andy Roddick: 58:44

Yeah, my personal favorite where world champs is, like, but like, no one else in the world plays this sport, yeah, that's, that's my favorite World champs. We're national champs. I'm like, well, there's a pro league Like there's, you wouldn't beat them, you know. It's just we just kind of a little bit self gratifying, self loathing, maybe when we're on the court, um, but let's like, just give me your quick thoughts, cause I have it, you know I have. I have some thoughts too. Casper root complaining, um, about the general infrastructure, uh, in Miami. How do you kind of digest that? What is James's role, uh, in this situation? I have a, and I probably come into it with a bias, cause I love James, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Jon Wertheim: 59:28

You want to really hot take?

Jon Wertheim: 59:30

the hottest IMG. Img runs this event. Img also represents players. You know the strange dynamic. And then obviously there's a businesses. They're trying to run on efficiencies, cut costs, turn a profit. Players would like more wages, better conditions.

Jon Wertheim: 59:48

Those are at odds and I wonder how much of this I mean you know, honestly, you would hear this even way predating this event at hard rock, predating James blade, who we all know it loves, but a tournament director is. You were able to uh, elusive data from the last show. A tournament director does not necessarily have great control over the purse strings. I wonder how much of this is about players perhaps being a bit frustrated that in a vet run by a management company. Also, wait, these are my representatives. They're getting a commission on me. Little hard to be on both sides of the table. I wonder if this is an event not old by IMG. We're going very in dive. This is. This is really inside tennis guts here. But I wonder if, uh, if you and I run this event and not a wait a second, you guys are supposed to be managing players and now you're also cutting quarters and running this event on the cheap. Uh, I wonder if that is a bit of background to this uh controversy such as it is.

Andy Roddick: 1:00:44

Yes, yeah, I mean that I hadn't thought about it that way. That would certainly make sense if I was with IMG. And you go in and all the things that Casper rude said, like I'm, you know, begging for towels and cold water when you're playing in Miami. I don't think that's diva ish. I think that's probably a fair request and maybe a place to shower that's like a permanent structure.

Andy Roddick: 1:01:07

Um, it's, I think it's this simple. You're coming off of Indian Wells, where it's arguably the best tournament on earth for the players. Like you have everything. The facility is great. It's like kind of it's pretty bougie at this point, um, but it's also kind of like a vanity trophy of a guy who is like the fifth richest guy on earth and, frankly, doesn't care or report to a P and L. It's not as if his company is going to be affected by the cost mechanisms in place for an 11 day tennis tournament. It's just not the reality that he lives in. You fly to Miami and all of a sudden it is one big P and L sheet. You, they, they bought this tournament as an entity to run it to try to make money. Those are very clear differences which have zero to do with it with a tournament director. It's the same way that I defended Tommy Haas when on Twitter after the first day when the in the balls ended up being fine um in Indian Wells but it was fun for a day and there was a lot of memes and I was a full participant in it. But then you know, people like Haas needs to get a bunch of new balls by tomorrow. I'm like he's going to change the ball and order them at scale by tomorrow. Like I feel like the tournament director is a catch all for anything and James can't decide the budgets for what they're going to spend.

Andy Roddick: 1:02:40

Now my personal opinion is, if you sign a 30 year lease and take it from a place where it's been for 30 years, at Crandon Park and we're on, we're in year five or six and we we're and I need all cards on the table. I've never been to the site there in Miami, right, I don't go there. It's just what we hear, the Casper of things. I texted another player friend who was like, yeah, everything is kind of in containers, right, it's all. It just feels very temporary. You have a 30 year lease. At this point, if there's space which was kind of the selling point to leave Crandon Park, because Crandon Park had a lot of great things, but it was a tight piece of land. There wasn't a lot of places to be additive to that facility as it as it was growing. It's obviously bigger in 2018 than it is in 1993 or 94 when I went there. You have a 30 year lease and a title to this tournament. Like you, should build some infrastructure that's permanent for these players, right?

Producer Mike: 1:03:43

Can I weigh in on this Because there is Steven Ross involved in all this, the owner of the Dolphins, the F1 hard rock stadium. He put in half a billion dollars to update this like a few years back and it's been rumored that he's looking to sell like minority stakes, including to Ken Griffin, you know, the fellow hedge fund billionaire. And when you look at something like this, like, is it about not having a large capital outlay while you're trying to sell?

Andy Roddick: 1:04:10

something. Yes, yes, and it's also just. Every major sports franchise owner and pro sports is rich. You can buy a gold version out of these, right? That's kind of generally okay. And some still run teams just for profit and that's their North Star and that's their prerogative. And some will spend anything you know to win, to have a fan experience, to do X, y and Z. So I think that's what we're talking about.

Andy Roddick: 1:04:37

But there is a difference between Ellison's never selling that tournament. He loves going to that tournament. He loves having that tournament. He is a massive tennis fan. I don't even know if Stephen Ross cares about tennis. It was just another thing that he could put in hard rock stadium. So it's just people operate and have different motivations. Now, if he is looking to sell things and there is a profit center that needs to be represented for a sale, running people out of containers and, you know, folding chairs, I guess makes a little bit more sense. If that's the case, I'd say I hope he sells it sooner rather than later so that the next person can do the right thing and actually build some infrastructure.

Jon Wertheim: 1:05:14

If only there were. If only there were investors looking to get into sports, if only there were countries with sovereign wealth funds.

Kim Clijsters: 1:05:20

It might be interesting to invest in that tennis tournament.

Jon Wertheim: 1:05:23

I mean don't just think, I mean first of all like let's just how much of where we're talking very high end.

Jon Wertheim: 1:05:28

Here we're talking very high level about P&L statements that I'm as guilty as anyone. How much of this is just? The volunteer in charge of towels got lost on the way to go to the right time. It may have been something as simple as the amongst golf cart jammed and they couldn't get the towels at the time. I also I don't think I've, I think continuum of complaint. You know, towels and water is like a fork and knife at a restaurant. We're not exactly like tennis, karen here throwing a fit. The flip side is don't be the James of thinking. Could you just bring it to me next time? I'll give you my number. Text me.

Jon Wertheim: 1:06:01

I'm on WhatsApp, however you want to get in touch with me could you just come to me next time and not have the live mic, pick this up to the chair on fire, which makes us a viral mode. I will give you all the towels and water you want. Casper, you're right, but just deal with me directly next time.

Andy Roddick: 1:06:18

I'm here for you, but help me, help you, casper root and stop just tournament directing every problem with a tournament Like do you think James has the ability to write? I love him. He does not have the ability to write a $200 million infrastructure check Like he is asking he is. He is asking someone to do that for him. He is managing as best he can with what is provided to him. The argument is not James Blake right, like the, it's just the tournament director is like the catch all for anything like a cat runs on the court. They're like James.

Jon Wertheim: 1:06:54

how could you? How could you find yourself a tournament director with a guano's run?

Andy Roddick: 1:06:59

Yeah, house with the bees. This is a hazard, tommy Haas. Fuck nature, tommy Haas. Anyways, just take it easy. Like I don't think what Casper was saying. From what I followed up, it doesn't sound like it's wrong. I'm also not sure what you want James to do about it, like you were. Every other person we're talking about that can fix this problem is a billionaire. God love him. James is never going to have to worry about money again in his life. But also, like he's not going to, you know, put his own money in as Miami tournament director to build a $300 million club house. Like, stop it. What else you got for me, jw?

Jon Wertheim: 1:07:35

This came my way. I've got a little. Actually, I'm sure you have as well. I've actually gotten a lot of a. Can you and Andy please talk about and be? We've gotten some constructive criticism. One of them is you can listen to this podcast at 1.5 speed and not lose anything. I mean, either you or I are slow talkers or else we are. We need to make this a barely. You can jack up the speed and you won't miss anything.

Producer Mike: 1:07:59

Everyone. I don't think anybody's ever called Andy.

Andy Roddick: 1:08:01

I was about to say that the two things that I've never been accused of in my life are slow talking and being better than Roger at tennis. Those are the two things that are certainties for me. So could you play Roger.

Jon Wertheim: 1:08:15

double speed is the question I would have liked to turn out.

Andy Roddick: 1:08:18

Yeah, I'd love to have that. Yeah, what else are we making superhero things out of today?

Jon Wertheim: 1:08:24

What was the other really interesting? I got a really interesting question, literally like half an hour before we, before we did this, which I think is a good question, and the question is what does Andy make of some paraphrase in front of me? But basically it's about the small idea of aura, a U R a, not the, not the ring. And they said well, you know, no, no, no, back. Losing his aura in the locker room is for, conversely, that this EGA had so much aura that's worse, ex games before she even goes on the court. It's something we talk about from time to time Forward player perspective, aura over and underrated it's.

Andy Roddick: 1:09:03

It's one of these things that, like I think fans use a lot, I think some journalists use a lot. It's like Michael Jordan is like I could flip a switch. I'm like, no, if you're an athlete, you would just choose to play well all the time. That's the point. Like it's not as if we're ever out there one time in my entire life and I've been first round of Miami and I'm playing great. I'm like, well, maybe if I play worse now, I'll play better later. Like that's not a fucking thing.

Andy Roddick: 1:09:31

Like so aura is? It's not? As if there's like a halo around someone's head as they're walking around the locker room. The aura comes with knowing that you have to change your style of play, and that is intimidating in its own way. So it's. It's the adjustments that you have to make and then the eventual exhaustion. If that doesn't work and you're down six, two, two, oh, because you've had to, your best chance of winning is also, you know your upping risk profile. And then, therefore, if it doesn't work out, you look like an idiot. And then someone saying get it to his back in.

Andy Roddick: 1:10:14

I understand the stereotype around athletes, I promise you we've thought about that, but I think aura is is it's like this catch all word when in fact, we're just talking about accomplishment the more accomplishment that egos fiantek has, the more intimidating it is to play her. Not because she walks into the locker room, and when someone walks into the locker room, not everyone like moves out of the way to create a straight line. Everyone goes about their business. When you're on the court, you're confronted with what they are presenting as a player, and that is the intimidating thing. It's not this like.

Andy Roddick: 1:10:48

I've never been in a locker room one time and seen someone walk through and everyone just stops what they're doing and looks. I'm like aura, look at that aura. Look at that. Look at that aura he's really got. Look at that mother fuck, he's got some aura today. You see that. Look at his bridges are singing. I think, yeah, so the aura comes from just the intimidation of what you have to gameplay for. It's not like aura in the locker room. I'm like well, no, the aura exists on court. I think more than more than the locker room, but I don't know.

Jon Wertheim: 1:11:22

That's pretty. No, you just did that call that's a granny episode.

Andy Roddick: 1:11:25

Yeah, Well play. Thank you very much. We're going to wrap. I think we have enough, Mike, we only. We have enough right.

Producer Mike: 1:11:31

Yeah, it's great.

Andy Roddick: 1:11:31

Yeah Well, you have to say that it's, I mean, it's your show. Basically, you're the producer, Like you.

Andy Roddick: 1:11:36

I haven't been fired yet, so I know and after that James bullshit with a picture from a couple of weeks ago. You're on your and thin ice. All right, jw, we'll talk to you later in the week, so let's get it. Cheers, cheers. See you, always full of learnings when we get to talk with John Wortham. I thank him for keeping up us up to date on the latest things in the tennis world. Our next guest I am so excited that she has agreed to become kind of a semi regular contributor to serve media in the podcast here. If you have a problem with Kim Kleister's, I blame you. Let's welcome Kim in and, as promised, friend of the show officially. Now I've convinced you to maybe come on a little more regularly. How, I mean, is that? Is that accurate or am I projecting?

Kim Clijsters: 1:12:31

It is accurate. You didn't take a lot of convincing. I was. I had a blast on the first, on the first show, so excited to come back more often.

Andy Roddick: 1:12:40

I love it. Yeah, we had such an unbelievable response to the interview we did, where you were so forthcoming and rational, as per usual, about some huge topics. Obviously, halep, from when we talked about it it seems it was only a month ago, but a lot's changed. She's back, she's playing. When we first had that conversation, it was more along the lines of will she ever play again? So I think it was your good vibes that got it done, kim.

Kim Clijsters: 1:13:08

Well, maybe I don't think so. I think a lot of hard work from her team and everybody you know who tried to kind of change the, you know, prove her innocence in all this right. Like she, she, I'm super happy that she was able to play and that we got to see her out on court and just to see how happy she was and how excited she was to be out there and the support that she got I thought was great and what she deserved. You know, you can tell that she's maybe not as as game ready as what she was, you know, a couple of years ago, which is normal, but just the excitement to get back and I'm sure this is very, you know, motivational for her to go on to the Claycourt season and to really prepare well for for the French Open.

Andy Roddick: 1:13:56

Yeah, I was actually impressed by the way she played. Obviously, I think fitness, you know, down the stretch was maybe lacking a little bit, but as far as ball striking, the shoulder was a little bit tired, but all in all I felt like it was a pretty good accounting for her. I mean, she's obviously not going to like miss it, Miss a ton of balls. She's super competitive. I want your take on it because I don't know. I don't know what to think of this and you're normally pretty good at being rational, Whereas I kind of react emotionally how Caroline Wozniakki basically came out and said and she was very cautious with the way she said it, but basically the gist of it was I don't believe people who have doped should be back and be given wildcards. Now I disagree specifically with Hallop because it's a business and obviously you want her as a storyline. But I understand. I understand what Caroline is saying. I certainly respect time served.

Andy Roddick: 1:14:56

Hallop didn't like it. She kind of got a little defensive and said I'm not a cheater, I didn't dope and it was. It was, you know, she. You could tell that she was bothered and I hope that since then she has gone back and watched the actual video of what Caroline has said and not just listen to a kind of regurgitation of what was said, because I thought Caroline said it as nicely as she could, given the fact that she has an opinion which, even if you don't agree with it, is is a rational opinion. The thing that throws this thing into a little bit of a weird area is Hallop was was on record in 2017 when Sherry Pove came back after time served and was given wildcard saying absolutely under no circumstances. You know, someone who has tested positive should be allowed wildcards. It seems like Hallop opinion has changed based on her own circumstance. What are we to make of this?

Kim Clijsters: 1:15:49

Well, I have a lot of thoughts. First of all, I think every situation, although it comes out as a positive doping results right test, I think in Hallop situation it's completely different. Her situation she tested positive unknowingly right with a contaminated supplement. Like I do think that there is, if somebody is taken like we see in cycling or whatever like does I don't know the terms or you know about all the medical products and all that stuff, I don't know that but like, yeah, when somebody tests positive very strongly for a supplement or for something that is taken because of you want to become a better athlete, yes, 100%. I agree with what Caroline says. Like you know, we shouldn't. They need to start from the bottom, like they have to work their way up being clean, get tested often and work your way back back to the top. But I think in Simone's case and again, like we come back to you know what we talked about previously like her team made such a big mistake.

Andy Roddick: 1:17:02

And, by the way, on that point I have a lot of sympathy for her because of misplaced trust. We should know, we should test, we shouldn't blindly trust. She did. I feel like she was kind of manipulated a little bit. So I completely agree with you on that point.

Kim Clijsters: 1:17:14

Yeah. So that's where I do think like, and her reaction is like, listen, I didn't cheat. And her saying something about Maria in the past To me only shows her vision of how she looks at doping and that she's not a cheater like when it comes to taking doping and to use that to become a better athlete. I do believe that.

Andy Roddick: 1:17:39

Yeah, the word intent is weird because you can say I didn't dope, I'm not a doper and I think it should be. I didn't intentionally dope Because if you test positive, you have taken a performance in dancing drug. So you can't say like I didn't purposely cheat, I didn't knowingly cheat, I didn't.

Andy Roddick: 1:17:54

but you can't say like I'm not this right accidentally so and it's a weird thing too, because the share pova, I feel like you know, she, I've asked a couple of people just to try to get smarter and it feels like people judge the Maria situation different because of the reputation of, of Maldonium, right, and so it's like, well, that was a performance enhancer, just wasn't illegal. Well, I'm like okay, isn't that? Every supplement, like every supplement you take, is taken for the benefit of what? To make your body feel better, to make you feel better, to enhance performance. So her saying I didn't know when it went from illegal sorry, from legal to illegal, it's just, it's just a weird thing.

Andy Roddick: 1:18:36

I feel like it, you know it's. It's like a weird thing where it's like, well, that you know it was a, it was a performance enhancing supplement. I'm like, well, that's every supplement, though.

Kim Clijsters: 1:18:43

Right, but, like I mean, my feel on it all is, you know, all like products they come onto the market, right, there's somebody who creates something to try and make some, some athlete better. I think Russia, like there was a huge documentary years ago that I watched in Belgium about, you know, these Russian labs which where they create products to to help like players, their athletes whether it doesn't matter whether it's any sport, not just tennis players, any, any athlete to improve and to try and get away, you know, to try and kind of sneak a new product in and get benefits from it. Right, like that's you know the yeah, that's how it works, I guess, in a sense. And so whatever Meldonium or I think, there you take a product and you're right, like Maria didn't take that, you know, because it was like it wasn't a banned substance, like, like, so so it's, it's, there's no blame, like there's, you know.

Andy Roddick: 1:19:49

I just I guess, for my thing is like I didn't have a problem with what Caroline said, even if there is nuance in every case, I don't like I mean obviously, how it comes back. I think you need to come back with a general, or under general, understanding that you can't assume Every single person knows every exact thing that happened in your trial. I think that's presumptuous, especially on the heels of your previous statements, not giving the grace to someone who you also might not have known all of the elements of their case. I just kind of. I'm someone who like craves consistency and it seems like there's an Inconsistency in opinion based on personal circumstance, right, and I don't want you know, I hope, how it went back and watched the woesniakki thing, just because I don't feel like she was taking Shots even in the slightest, like I don't know just her opinion.

Kim Clijsters: 1:20:44

Like maybe a journalist asked, asked Simone that question in the press, you know how it goes right, like, oh, caroline said this and you know, like you, they create kind of a story. So but again, like what I always try to Think about I don't know if you hear the snoring, it's not my husband.

Andy Roddick: 1:21:07

Are you doing this podcast?

Kim Clijsters: 1:21:08

Well, so there a little bulldog right there fellow English bulldog owner dreamland.

Andy Roddick: 1:21:15

Ask about. I don't know if you're like passing wind or something.

Kim Clijsters: 1:21:20

But, um, yeah, I just try to like think about the situation and I I try to believe that I've always been very cautious and when you know my team has has done things, you know to, yeah, where I was sick, or like, did you check it?

Andy Roddick: 1:21:38

Like yeah, we checked it with the WTA, like, if that gets told you, like I wasn't gonna send those emails out to the WTA, or you know, like, so you have to trust your team and if, if, if you do that and I don't know where that communication went wrong within the team, like I do feel differently about that, like I do, I think it comes down to how, up taking something new from something from someone who gave it to her, you take those things to Enhanced performance and it's pretty straight it's either legal or it's not, and there's a clear line in the sand where, in Maria's case, it's generally known that you know she had taken that for a long time and it was viewed negatively, I think, in the world of sports, but it was known like everyone knew what it was. Everyone felt like the ban on Maldonium, specifically, was coming. I think they're both guilty of Crossing tees, dotting eyes, and you got to know what's legal. When it's legal, who's giving it to you? What are the trusted sources? I am glad that I am not Responsible for choosing what happens and what the guidelines are For the Hall of Fame with these two, because, obviously, because obviously they're their first ballot Hall of Famers.

Andy Roddick: 1:22:55

In my opinion, I think the easiest thing for the Hall of Fame to do and this is me projecting to El Presidente Of the Hall of Fame right now, but it feels like an opportunity to celebrate how tough the drug testing protocols are. In tennis, like you know, you hear positive, for you know something that has 17 vowels, three X's in it and you know four other. You know letters that you can barely pronounce together, and that's like the technical term for as like the Belgian language, no.

Andy Roddick: 1:23:28

But you know, I think it's an opportunity to say listen, we're gonna have some. The reason why we've had some of these positives it is so strict, right, you can test positive for pseudofed. You can test positive. You used to be able to test positive for athletes. Foot powder, like these are insane things. To test positive for what that you don't have to worry about.

Andy Roddick: 1:23:50

In other sports we should celebrate the fact that, like intent be no one's taking anabolic steroids and testing positive for that Like that's just not happening. I don't think it's our job, your job at the Hall of Fame, with your team there, to Diagnose intent. That's been done in the courts. Simply if the courts in the systems have said this was not intentional and it's an imperfect system, so we can go down that rabbit hole if you want. It's not the job of the Hall of Fame to overrule a court to then judge on intent and Celebrate the fact that we get tested more than any athletes on earth. We get tested in our home. We get tested with blood. They can randomly knock on your door at five in the morning and you have to pee in a cup. Like it is Simultaneously a chance to punt responsibility.

Andy Roddick: 1:24:39

Because I don't think it's the job of the Hall of Fame to try to qualify intent. I think there's time served and I think there should be a level that's not pseudofed or something that's over-the-counter. There does need to be some differentiated. But the problem is we consume in headlines and that's a tough headline to write. But where do you stand on? That is I mean. Am I missing something? Have I not thought?

Kim Clijsters: 1:25:01

about it. You said it all. Can you join me when I in my meetings at the Hall of Fame no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna jump on that grenade. You made that mistake and we got, I agree like it's, it's you know, and, and the voters? They may have a personal opinion about it, but I don't think. Yeah, it needs to have an effect. Once the, the suspension is, everything is passed and life goes on, and yeah.

Andy Roddick: 1:25:33

I just, I just think the easiest thing ever is to Celebrate how stringent and that we have the toughest drug testing protocols and any sport on earth Maybe outside of just general Olympic protocols where the only way you're getting away with something if it's like a bow-coast situation when there's a design designer steroids, someone has to go and tell on them and tell them what to look for, and then all of a sudden you pick off 50 baseball players because you know they weren't able to test for what the what was being taken.

Kim Clijsters: 1:26:00

This feels like a different Remember like, like back in the day, especially like when you had like a good result, I would have like three days in a row of random like it was. Like it was the, the, the Belgian Federation, it was itf, yeah, and then you have like whatever else there was, like I, it was crazy, like, and I never Knew that there were so many different organizations that can come in and have the rights to come and test you, like it's. But it was, it was very obvious that you know, especially when you had a good result, and yeah, they like to come knock on your door. And I mean, I remember one time, like I just went to pee, literally like three minutes before, and all of a sudden I hear like ding dong, like in Belgium, yeah, my front door.

Andy Roddick: 1:26:45

It was like five to six and they sit and watch you until you have to go again.

Kim Clijsters: 1:26:49

Yeah, and they sit there in your kitchen. And I was just trying to be polite, like you can't do anything and you can't go anywhere, like I can't go and take a nap until I have to pee again, like no, you have to stay there and stay inside. And I was like, would you like some coffee? And they're like no, we're not allowed to take anything from you know the? I'm like okay.

Andy Roddick: 1:27:08

So you literally just sit there. Very awkward. Do you want some coffee with supplements crushed into it? No, I heard it will go on after this, because this was literally a side tangent that I thought would take two minutes, but then it became interesting. I think we're we're gonna go this deep on this subject, but here we are.

Kim Clijsters: 1:27:28

One of the stories that but Andy but have you never been in a situation where, like a trainer or somebody says like I don't know, like it's a good lesson for the younger generation. I feel like right, like to really take this as an example for coaches, for, like everybody involved, like trainers, physios, whoever yeah, so it's also lesson, like yeah it's okay.

Andy Roddick: 1:27:54

So now I'm going another one I get asked often about. You know certain players and is there what's? Is there a problem with? With with drug testing or Steroid use or something in tennis? And I say, well like, just very pragmatically, right, the cost of To pass the testing that Lane's Armstrong was was passing was millions of dollars a year. Like that was a whole operation of very clinical, very organized People on salary, people, hiding stuff, moving from here to there. It literally cost millions. Frankly speaking, 99% of tennis players can't afford the program that it would take to consistently Dodge the drug testing because it is so effective. The only thing we can't solve for is what we don't know, like a Balco Situation. So I hate that the headlines make it seem like there's an issue in tennis when it's actually.

Andy Roddick: 1:28:52

When someone tests positive, it's because of the strength of Of the doping. It's like during an Olympic year God forbid. You get tested. You land in France, you get tested by their Federation. You get tested by all your Olympic committees. You get tested by the eight ITF. You get tested by the ATP. The slams have their own testing, I mean when, and it's weighted based on ranking. So Kim not understanding that she got tested a lot after a good result. It was because she was always good and it was way that their drug testing was weighted by ranking. That was like a subtle flex there. But yeah, I mean, listen, it's. It's not an issue in tennis, but it should be a lesson learned for the young players. Like Kim said, like I would be, so I was ridiculous about any. I wouldn't take cough medicine, even if it was.

Kim Clijsters: 1:29:37

Had a player in the WTA to who tests a positive and they were able to prove that the meat that they ate in South America had like hormone, like certain types of hormones, in it and you know it was such a minimum, yeah result, but it crazy, like it's, it's um yeah so don't especially with social media, now everything too, because everything is you know it's.

Andy Roddick: 1:29:58

It's hard to the. You can't put the toothpaste back in on social media like once it said once that's just accepted by you know, 50% of everyone. You know we don't. We don't really. We've proven in many different areas that we don't really work well with nuance. But anyways, take this out. I hope, I hope Simone and Caroline just get together and have a 90-second conversation, as I imagine they will, and I hope that's just over. But anyways, it was good to see Halle back.

Andy Roddick: 1:30:25

One of the other things and why we were texting the last two days and I basically threw the Hail Mary out of and asked if you would Regularly come on. It seemed very you've been top of mind this week for me, even More than when I just text you. Random stuff usually is because it feels like the entire tours are so come back centric right now. Right, like I was writing down the names and I'll miss a couple. So let me know what I miss Kim and producer Mike, but it's like okay, nishi Corey we're still talking about. Was Niyaki right?

Andy Roddick: 1:31:00

O'connell stopping and starting it feels like there's always a comeback. Kerber coming back, svitilina coming back team has been it like this long Comeback that doesn't look like it's gonna end well at this point, I hope it does. Murray's been on this like three year, you know. Can I break through? I've come back and I'm at a certain level and it's admirable, but Am I still happy? You know, being someone who's 50 in the world and having those moments Osaka coming back, is Rafa gonna be able to come back for one last run? Halop coming back? So you like, your take on this is gonna be very interesting to me, because Maybe I'm forgetting someone or, but I think you were.

Andy Roddick: 1:31:36

You probably had the best Comeback of all time, most sustainable, you could argue, even not maybe not as far as volume, because you, you know you played longer before, but the most impactful results of your career were after you came back the first time and then you stopped and then you tried again and within the last three or four years and it seemed like it didn't get off the ground.

Andy Roddick: 1:32:01

So I think you're like the perfect person to ask and talk about the difficulties of you know what's different with Radhikhanu coming back when she's young versus, you know, kerber or Rafa trying to fight back when they can't really trust their body? What were the differences between a successful comeback for you, and maybe you view the second one as it was successful because I tried, but it wasn't as if you know you, you played, you know, three years straight healthy and you had a run and you ended up in the top ten again. So did kind of describe the differences between you know what was probably the most successful comeback of all time and one that maybe you wanted more out of.

Kim Clijsters: 1:32:38

Well, to keep it very simple, and the feeling that I have about coming back after I jada, I was in my mid-20s, it everything just went very smoothly. You know, I had with my trainer back in Belgium. We had the numbers that we wanted to get to, whether it came down to kind of speed and agility, strength you know all the numbers that we had from the past. Like I felt, like I got to those numbers very quickly, I got my feeling back on the court. The motivation, which was something that for me was always super important, is the Seeing, you know, being motivated, motivated to take on the challenge of trying to work my way back into, you know, into into the tournaments and then In my later. So what was that? Mid 30s, I guess it was. Everything was just so much harder like in my brain. I felt like, you know, yeah, I can Maybe not be as good as before, but you know, my goal tried to be second week of Grand Slam. It's like, you know, trying to play the Grand Slam is a week prior, maybe a couple tournaments here and there. That was the goal and I mean stupid enough. My knowledge was that I was not going to be a good player. I mean stupid enough.

Kim Clijsters: 1:33:50

My knee injury that kind of lingered throughout the whole that whole phase. I was playing padelle and I slipped and I've had a tour of my mcl like something really stupid and and and I never recovered properly from it. Like and it's yeah, just being older and it. You know there's a great part about getting older is that you know yourself better. You are able to read games better, I'm able to. I understand the game better than before. I understand myself better than before.

Kim Clijsters: 1:34:19

Um, but physically it just, yeah, I wasn't able to. And then that becomes frustrating. You, you get, you get frustrated with your body, with yourself, and you try to kind of fight through it and you think, okay, I have to be disciplined, I'm going to try new things. But then, yeah, at the end of the day, you have to realize covid kicked in there too and I just wasn't able to to maintain the, you know the, the, the daily Push or the motivation to, to get to that point and to leave the family behind, and and so I just called it quits. But it was kind of like to me. I compared my last kind of comeback as, like my girlfriends who try to run a marathon before their fourth. You know like that's like they need a challenge like that, and I was like, yeah, this is my marathon like I'm trying to do this and and and I know I'm going to get criticized like but I'm gonna try it.

Andy Roddick: 1:35:13

And Professional tennis comeback where she played. She came back and played in the us Open to medals for exercise, like that's that. That. That's the cop seriously, though, like. Mortal reality.

Kim Clijsters: 1:35:27

But it's true, like my girlfriends were like, I want to try to run the marathon in rudder dam or in namsterdam.

Jon Wertheim: 1:35:33

We're berlin and, yeah, bless you.

Kim Clijsters: 1:35:34

And yeah, so Try to do it did age?

Andy Roddick: 1:35:41

uh, did age create its own pressure circumstances? So like if you, if you're 22 and you have a setback, unless it's like a major major blowout where it's something crazy, you know you're gonna get back, you're just disappointed that you're missing time, right like you hurt your knee Did it create its own sort of mental? I mean, I understand the physical part, but the like, a mental pressure set where it's like I don't have four years, I have 12 months, and does that make it less enjoyable somehow?

Kim Clijsters: 1:36:13

I kind of like that that battle of like trying to push and see how far you know, like the the grind of like Working with your trainer, like in the basement here, like to to see like how far can I push, is like where can this knee go? And, and Like I kind of like that. That pushing yourself, um, did it cause pressure? Maybe a little bit. Um, I do have to say like I um. So the year that the indian wells tournament got cancelled because of covet, pushed to october right.

Kim Clijsters: 1:36:45

Yep, I was there and had. I had my first ever panic attack in my life.

Andy Roddick: 1:36:52

Tell me about that.

Kim Clijsters: 1:36:54

Yeah, so that was like you talk about, like pressure, like I think I felt Pressure, like I wanted to do well, like I felt like I was hitting the ball so well on court like I I I remember hitting with kiki burdens and and with alia tonlianovich and and just I had such good practices like played practice sets, was was beating girls in practice and. But I just wanted to kind of prove it like in in a match and um, and during one of the practices I just started like yeah, really like I had a panic attack on the tennis court.

Andy Roddick: 1:37:27

Never had that in my life. What does that feel like when it happens? It felt like I don't think I've had for a second, I felt like I was being a drama queen. So that's like most of us daily can I put my middle finger up?

Kim Clijsters: 1:37:44

Yeah, sure, it's a podcast.

Jon Wertheim: 1:37:47

There, you go.

Andy Roddick: 1:37:49

At least we have our new show opening. That's great.

Kim Clijsters: 1:37:52

It'll live forever, no but like I was like what is happening, kim, just take a deep breath, calm down, like that's how I tried to talk to myself, like a heart rate thing, no, like I couldn't take a deep breath. Like I was like and my trainer was there, like I was on court I think it was court for something in Indian Wells and and so my trainer was like, just lay down, put your legs up, and that, like Me calming down, or that wasn't working at all. So I was like, just Give me like go stand, like to my tennis coach, go stand at the net, and just hit, like hit towards me. So I had the, the rhythm of the sound of the ball, like the tune, the tune, like that distraction, and that gave me like my, my breathing rhythm came back. And yeah, I talked to him about it the other day because he's not working with with onsture bur a little bit. And and when I was in Indian Wells, like I call him, like remember the, the, the panic attack? Yeah, it was crazy, that's so.

Andy Roddick: 1:38:52

It's so strange how like Pressure manifests because, like outside, looking in, right, our listeners are probably going okay, you know you've had this successful career, you don't owe anyone anything, your legacy is set in stone, you have a happy family. I know that you, like your husband, most of the time Like it seems like everything's set, so they're fine. It seems like everything's set so therefore there shouldn't be there's certainly not any outside pressure on you, right?

Andy Roddick: 1:39:24

It's not as if you create that yourself, I think, I know, but that's fascinating to me and but like talk about how that works, because Normally pressure is like outside, I need to win a slam, I know I have to, I know I can. There's expectation. I think I always say expectation, I think, is the hardest thing In sports, right, I think, like the expectation is, is is hard. But at that point, outside of your own expectations, like with everyone, like the world's expectations, you were always fine, like you always don't like not fine, but it was hard. Let's give it the credit it deserves. But it didn't end and you having a panic attack on the court. So outside, looking in, it's like it's, it's. It's surprising for me to hear that your own pressure set of just wanting to play well in a match, when you've done it hundreds of times in your career, was the thing that set it off. That's fascinating to me.

Kim Clijsters: 1:40:11

Yeah, yeah, no, it's. Um, it came out of nowhere and it really like I remember walking off the the the court Back to the locker room and and just thinking to myself, like when is this coming from? Like you really start to kind of unpeel the onion, like like is this coming because I want to do well for my team, because I know that they're you know they're there and they want me to do well, and we've worked so hard on getting my knee ready and like all those things? And yeah, it's, it's. I don't know like I still at times, like I know I put a lot of pressure on myself and I tried to push it. And you know, I'm also at the same time thinking, like my family wasn't there, like I'm doing this, brian and the kids are at home, like is this the right thing to do?

Kim Clijsters: 1:40:56

You know, like that kind of fight, like that battle inside of your head that, yeah, the guilt that you you know that I dealt with in in my mid 20s, but you got over quickly and and and um, you're able to, yeah, you balance it easier, but this just um. Yeah, I just didn't, didn't feel right man, I didn't.

Andy Roddick: 1:41:18

I think one of my favorite things that I'm surprised about from doing the show, and one of my like the best things is that I learned something new that I would have never assumed from the outside looking in and these are people your friends like. I'm close with james, I know max, I've traveled with brad forever, but I always learned something new that I would have been wrong on. Uh, with an assumption and I think that's my favorite part of of of having done this show Uh so far and I I don't know what the macro takeaway is is like someone's always going through something right, like even if you, even if it's not obvious to you, uh, can I tell you about something I went through this morning, kim?

Andy Roddick: 1:41:54

Please do yeah, not quite uh a panic attack.

Andy Roddick: 1:41:58

But I certainly fucking freaked out. I'll tell you that. Um, so I I've started playing. So this is this would be especially funny to you Because I said after kim and I played we saw this in the last one, we played an xo the week before the us open it was so bad Like I felt like I had played tennis four times in my life. I was panicked and it was like someone would hit. And it got to the point where I made it so awkward during this exhibition when the other two players knew that they couldn't hit it to me Because I would miss if it was past serve. It was like I was missing, but it was. It was bad and I was just like that.

Andy Roddick: 1:42:36

If it would have been any consequence, I think that would have been my first panic attack. Uh, so I I basically left the court and came and I was like I'm never playing in public, ever again in my life. That was it. I came home I said I told brook the same thing. I don't think I have since. Uh, but six months ago I started playing a lot more tennis. I maybe played three times a year. For you know, seven years before that play a ton. I play in a game called dingles. Do you know what dingles is?

Kim Clijsters: 1:43:00

I do, though I learned since I moved to the states.

Andy Roddick: 1:43:02

Oh my god, it's like the best game. I had no idea, anyways. So it's like basically this game where you, you, there's two points going on simultaneously, you and your partner are playing a cross court singles point. Whoever wins, you hear dingle, shouted and then it opens up to all four people the dumb game. I have a really fun game here in town with you know Some player. One guy played a wimbledon. One guy's like the best in the country, over 50, like a high level game, and it's been great for me. I've lost a bunch of weight. I'm playing tennis again. I love it again. I I am enjoying it more now than any time you know since I was like nine right, like you enjoy tennis while you're playing, but there's also like it's your job, so it's. It's just different. I wrapped a racket around a bench, gotten a fight with someone I was playing with.

Kim Clijsters: 1:43:49

All right, but what happened?

Andy Roddick: 1:43:51

They were accusing me of cheating and it really just fucking pissed me off and so I wrapped a racket around a bench. There were two other guys. I'd said something to the one guy and then I left and I made the excuse. I'm like I have my, I have to shoot a podcast with Kim at 1130. I just huff and puff and left and completely lost it and I'm like you. And then the whole time I'm like driving home and I'm like you, simple bastard, like it was, like I kept getting accused. It was like two days in a row where I got accused and they were actually ended up being wrong about the rule Right. So I'm like I felt like validated yesterday. I'm like, see, like, how stupid is that? And then today I could hear this guy chirping to his partner like that middle line, like I, many things, I have many flaws. I call a wide line, like I don't. I don't, never had the empire called on me as a junior, just don't do it. Like I air. On the other side of it, this guy chirped I didn't say anything, didn't say guys.

Andy Roddick: 1:44:45

Yesterday and someone I've known for like ever he played in Wimbledon and sure enough, like, and then happens again and he's like was that out? I go, are you asking me because you didn't hear me call it or because you're questioning me? And he goes because it was in and I'm questioning you and I was. I replayed it. I'm like, fine, whatever, like the rule is you have to be a hundred percent. I'm sure, like every club player right now is on the edge of their seats going I do this every Wednesday but like this is basically a story like we're just like you. So I said, well, replay it. I ended up replaying it yesterday too, even though I was completely right. Right, it's like I get like this little bitchy tone Like well, just replay it then, because I'm not going to take it Like just you know, just a drama queen, like you said earlier. Anyway.

Andy Roddick: 1:45:32

So, and then the more I think about it, like 10, 15 minutes ago, I'm sure me losing that game didn't help my general state of being and I just fucking snapped, like I haven't snapped, I don't. I don't snap nowadays, like I know I was nuts when I was on tour, but it's not as if I walk, I don't lose my temper really Like I don't. I'm obviously quick and I like banter, but not like wrecking things or breaking rackets and I just don't. I don't throw things at the wall when I'm mad. I don't punch the air when I'm mad. I lost it and I'm still pissed right now, like it's been three hours and I'm I'm I'm so pissed, diagnosed me it was a buildup, but it was a buildup of the last few days.

Andy Roddick: 1:46:11

Snapped snapped.

Andy Roddick: 1:46:13

And I was literally, you were ready at 11, 15. I normally come down to 11, 15. It was 11, 27. We were supposed to start at 1130 and producer my producer bike's going come down, she's ready. I'm like I still have three minutes, but it was because I was text arguing with the guy still and I'm mad because I, like he works at the place we play and I got mad at him at his place of work so I felt guilty. I'm like this is your job, like I can't bring my petulance into your job and so I kind of owned my part of it, which I'm good at, like I can do stupid things but, then I can own my stupid things.

Andy Roddick: 1:46:51

I'm good at that.

Kim Clijsters: 1:46:52

And you have a podcast, he won't he won't own it. Prove your point.

Andy Roddick: 1:46:57

He hasn't said sorry for any of it and he was completely wrong yesterday, Like on on merit, on all of it, and so I'm just I think he wants it.

Kim Clijsters: 1:47:06

I think he wants like a frame thing that he beat you and no.

Andy Roddick: 1:47:10

but he's beat me, but it's like we used to practice together all the time. Like it's, not like he hasn't. He doesn't view me that way.

Kim Clijsters: 1:47:15

Like he he was one he was 140 in the world.

Andy Roddick: 1:47:18

He played Wimbledon Like it's. It's not. It's not like that thing where it's a club guy beating me like which, which is like it is a thing, but not specifically with him. But I basically thank you for being a part of the podcast. I can't wait for you to be here on a semi-regular basis. I bet you didn't know that you're my new therapist and we're going to do it very publicly.

Kim Clijsters: 1:47:39

Well, vice versa, like you can be my therapist at the same time.

Andy Roddick: 1:47:42

Yeah, we'll just pretend no one's listening.

Kim Clijsters: 1:47:44

Airee.

Andy Roddick: 1:47:45

Yeah, so is it. Am I like you? Obviously, that never had, that didn't even have. You didn't even get mad when, like there were actual consequences. Is that like a psychotic thing to do, like break stuff?

Kim Clijsters: 1:47:55

Andy, like maybe this will surprise a lot of people, but not the people that are close to me. But I do like to throw things so much.

Andy Roddick: 1:48:10

I mean, how does that work? Because no one's ever seen you get mad publicly Like what happens?

Kim Clijsters: 1:48:15

Well, on the tennis court I definitely like in practice and or if it's pickleball or like it's whatever I have in my hand, like if it's a tennis ball, like I will throw my shoulder out trying to throw the ball, like just to get some like frustration out.

Kim Clijsters: 1:48:29

If it's a racket like I've definitely cracked a few rackets in my career, never on during the game, though like that's when like I was in focus mode, but yeah, but like yeah, not not so much at the house, but it's always like yeah when the competitiveness stuff gets that's treated and when it's unfair, when there's like unjustified things happening, like that's it. I hate being accused of yeah, that being shifty, I can't get over it. I can't get over it.

Andy Roddick: 1:48:59

It just drives me crazy, like if someone's like you're shifty, I'm like, oh you're, you're squirrely with the rules, and then you go back and say, okay, maybe I'm wrong. You go back and ask the group and they're like, no, that's not even. Like what you're being accused of isn't even a rule. I can't get over it and it literally I've had 24 hours to get over it and I went in today and on any other day. We all chirp, we all talk, we all quiet, like we all. It's just, you know, trash talking and it was built up and I just I lost it. I couldn't handle it.

Kim Clijsters: 1:49:26

So what were you thinking on your way over, like in the car, on the way to where you already like worried about it?

Andy Roddick: 1:49:32

No, I thought I was good. That's the concerning part. Like I thought I was fine. I well, this is an excuse. But like I'm on tennis channel all for the next, you know however many masters 1000s when they're in Miami, like I don't, I go on after the last match. So daughter comes in at 530. I went to sleep at like 130. So I woke up kind of like grumpy Right. Not an excuse. I drove there thinking like I was over it. I texted last night I'm like oh, there's not gonna be a hangover, it's all fine, like a text to our little tennis group. I was wrong, there was a hangover. I was.

Kim Clijsters: 1:50:05

So when are you playing with them again?

Andy Roddick: 1:50:06

I don't know We've. I think at this point we've. We're like we're never gonna play again.

Kim Clijsters: 1:50:11

I would like it just put a little camera on in the corner so we can just maybe have some footage of that when we I'll take care of it for the podcast.

Andy Roddick: 1:50:20

We need it. Can I? I know I've taken a lot of your time today. I do want you to weigh in on one other thing that I've been dealing with this week, if you, if you, if you can, so my wife, oh, yes, you know. Do you know what this is?

Kim Clijsters: 1:50:36

Is it about the treadmill?

Andy Roddick: 1:50:37

Yeah, tell me about it.

Kim Clijsters: 1:50:39

Yeah, what were you thinking?

Andy Roddick: 1:50:41

No, no, no, that's bullshit.

Producer Mike: 1:50:42

Okay, so we've got to frame it, you got to frame it, you got to frame it.

Kim Clijsters: 1:50:46

I saw.

Producer Mike: 1:50:47

I saw a video on.

Andy Roddick: 1:50:48

Brooklyn's Instagram which I don't have. So this is all a surprise to me where she is asking.

Kim Clijsters: 1:50:54

I guess her followers like hey, what do you think about this? I it is her. I guess her birthday coming up Mother's Day, it's your anniversary. How many?

Andy Roddick: 1:51:04

years. How many 15?

Kim Clijsters: 1:51:06

See, that's a big one Like.

Andy Roddick: 1:51:08

I know.

Kim Clijsters: 1:51:09

Yeah, so and she goes, and Andy bought me a treadmill. I cry, cry, cry, laughing like hilarious. All right, so now your side.

Andy Roddick: 1:51:24

Okay, so I learned about this in parts. So we were in here shooting. Who was it? Monday Were we?

Producer Mike: 1:51:36

shooting the racket roundup.

Andy Roddick: 1:51:38

So I was in her solo I wasn't doing like a conversation or an interview and social Sophie she does an unbelievable job for our social accounts.

Andy Roddick: 1:51:48

She also, you know, helps us with our, with our children, and so she was in here in the studio while we were shooting and she's like oh, did you see what Brooke just put on Instagram? I'm like, obviously I don't have Instagram, I have no idea what it is, and so I had in the way that it would had done was she literally has been talking about this fucking treadmill for months. Right, she like I like to do this certain workout on my off days and like it's become like a thing and when we're building out the studio, like what you see here is out in our gym and our backyard, like this is this whole studio is in there. So it's like moving equipment and a whole thing was like well, I just want to make sure that that treadmill that we may or may not eventually get fits in there. Like that was a point of conversation, so it's been there for a while. And so I was like okay, the misinformation, kim, which I just. I just want to clear my name.

Kim Clijsters: 1:52:35

I've already. I'm so curious.

Andy Roddick: 1:52:36

Now I've admitted my petulance. I've admitted my immaturity on the show already. The treadmill was for one of the things. All right, so like weed. And also one thing I learned is because I don't care about gifts doesn't mean that nobody else should. Shouldn't care about gifts. Right Like that's. That's that I own that. Someone else gave me a piece of advice. It was like major occasions, you shouldn't be allowed to plug it in. That's good advice. That's clarity. I understand that. Right Like that's that's. It might have been your wife, mike. That was that's. That's a good piece of advice. The misinformation where, again, fair and just, I just can't get over it is it was for one of the things, and the only reason I told her ahead of time was because she was going to going to go order it and I had already ordered it, right, and so it was for a birthday. There's a separate gift for Mother's Day and there is a separate gift for the anniversary. And she just went and gas lit my ass.

Kim Clijsters: 1:53:36

Good.

Andy Roddick: 1:53:36

Instagram.

Kim Clijsters: 1:53:38

You know what made it even better was, I think, the next video where she was sharing, like all the women that had gotten like horrible gifts from there, like one got like a vacuum.

Andy Roddick: 1:53:49

The other one got a scale. The content was great and I was like I'm not even going to respond on Twitter, I'm not going to do anything because I heard your voice on one of the videos in the background or something. And she was shooting it like and I'm next to her and she knows that if she says something and I'm next to her, I can't help myself Like she's just great she was great.

Kim Clijsters: 1:54:10

She makes me laugh. I like her. Yes, she was a, but.

Andy Roddick: 1:54:13

I'd like that's content, mastery Right. But again but the ally travels halfway around the world before the truth gets spoken Like that's, that's, that's the yeah, but you think just generally okay. So you're about to tell me that either way, I shouldn't have gotten her a treadmill, right?

Kim Clijsters: 1:54:36

You get it for the two of you, not for like a special occasion, I'll start running.

Andy Roddick: 1:54:42

Kim Jesus Fuck.

Kim Clijsters: 1:54:45

Listen, I remember I think it was your 40th where she like through a bunch of pictures of you, like on there to hilarious.

Jon Wertheim: 1:54:54

Yeah.

Kim Clijsters: 1:54:55

I don't know where, like she, found all those pictures.

Andy Roddick: 1:54:59

One piece of context that also I just wanted to say for the end is that she conveniently forgot that it's got to be seven or eight years ago. Now I am literally 15 steps from it. If there wasn't all of our equipment, I could see it right here. For Christmas one year she got me a Peloton bike.

Kim Clijsters: 1:55:20

It's different.

Andy Roddick: 1:55:21

Why is it different equals? Are we progressive? Are we all?

Jon Wertheim: 1:55:22

equals. Are we all this Like our don't.

Andy Roddick: 1:55:29

Like I don't understand. How is that different? She can tell me I need a Peloton bike when I don't ask for it, but I can get her a treadmill when she does ask for it.

Kim Clijsters: 1:55:42

Just talk it out with between the two of you. I don't need to get involved in this.

Andy Roddick: 1:55:46

Yeah, no, I mean, we have I just you know, I just frankly, I think her content was fantastic and I'm certainly not going to pass up the opportunity, so so, here we are, waiting for the next thing that you will throw back at her.

Andy Roddick: 1:56:00

She can't, because the next thing is is that she has a present coming that she will absolutely fucking love, but she won't be able to show it, because then we're going to look like pricks Right. It's like, oh, look at this nice gift he got me. Like that's not going to happen, like we can't do that, so I'm just going to end up eating shit.

Producer Mike: 1:56:19

I'm sure she will. The gift of validation, because you can't fly, flash it on like, yeah, the treadmills.

Andy Roddick: 1:56:24

The gift of record she will Totally and there's never going to be a follow up, because I'm like don't show that, like that's not. You can't show the showy stuff, you can only show the crappy stuff. Right, like that's, that's it.

Kim Clijsters: 1:56:37

I'm so curious now what did you get her?

Andy Roddick: 1:56:40

I'm so curious. I think I know which parts are going to get cut from the T2 broadcast because we talked about a lot of tennis stuff and then we kind of didn't talk about any tennis stuff. So I'm assuming most people will hear this conversation, or at least the last half of it, Tuesday on the pod which is available on Apple and Spotify, and I'm assuming the nuts and bolts of tennis and comebacks and drugs will probably be on T2 on Sunday night. But either way, Kim, you never disappoint. You're always the best at served me. Producer Mike, the rest of the team we feel lucky that you're going to join us more often. Appreciate you.

Kim Clijsters: 1:57:18

I appreciate all you guys do. Thank you.

Andy Roddick: 1:57:20

Cheers, Kim, Thanks, All right. What a great conversation with Kim Kleister slash therapy session for me. Not totally sure she knows what she signed up for, but here we are. Thank you so much for listening to another week of the serve podcast. It's just been. It's been so, so, so much fun for me. Your feedback is amazing. Please keep it coming. The growth week over week really feels like it just feels like we're building something really fun between us. So I appreciate you.

Andy Roddick: 1:57:59

As always, you can help us by following on all the social media platforms and by all, I mean I don't know. I know I'm like antiquated. I've been on Twitter and that's it. I just I only go to the most hateful places. Listen to us wherever you get your, your podcast. Check us a serve channel out on YouTube, not only for recent shows, but past library. If you've missed any of our great interviews in the past. I guess this is the part where I mentioned that we'll see you Sunday on T two and every Tuesday for the audio and YouTube release, and whatever they didn't show in T two will always be on YouTube immediately, and then our library will live on a week after our previous T two show. Producer Mike, anything else?

Producer Mike: 1:58:47

No, great week.

Andy Roddick: 1:58:48

Appreciate you guys. Thanks for listening to serve.