Andy Roddick goes over the finals results from Ben Shelton in Houston, Danielle Collins in Charleston, and what it's like to transition out of hard-courts to kick off the clay-court season. Then, with Jon Wertheim, they go over the WTA x Saudi finals event deal, the USTA 35 by ’35 press release, and they go over their thoughts and emotions around Nadal’s announcement that he won’t be playing in Monte Carlo this year.
0:00 Welcome to Served
0:40 Andy and Producer Mike get drunk
4:50 Racket Rundown
15:25 Jon Wertheim joins the show
16:50 WTA x Saudi finals event deal
43:00 USTA 35 by ’35 press release
59:26 Nadal pulling from Monte Carlo
1:11:16 TEASER - Next week’s episode
Keep up with us on socials!
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Andy Roddick goes over the finals results from Ben Shelton in Houston, Danielle Collins in Charleston, and what it's like to transition out of hard-courts to kick off the clay-court season. Then, with Jon Wertheim, they go over the WTA x Saudi finals event deal, the USTA 35 by ’35 press release, and they go over their thoughts and emotions around Nadal’s announcement that he won’t be playing in Monte Carlo this year.
0:00 Welcome to Served
0:40 Andy and Producer Mike get drunk
4:50 Racket Rundown
15:25 Jon Wertheim joins the show
16:50 WTA x Saudi finals event deal
43:00 USTA 35 by ’35 press release
59:26 Nadal pulling from Monte Carlo
1:11:16 TEASER - Next week’s episode
Keep up with us on socials!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/servedpodcast/
X: https://twitter.com/Served_Podcast
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@served_podcast?_t=8jZtCnzdAnX&_r=1
Watch the Episodes on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0k_--YLuTNuDvq1Dw4zHmw
Hi, I'm Andy Roddick. You're listening to the Serve Podcast. That sounded like a call map, didn't it Always messing around with it? Welcome to another week of the Serve Podcast. Thank you for liking, subscribing, listening wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for watching T2 on Sunday, if you did. If you didn't, then we got a lot more show for you. This is where to go when you want the super extended version. Producer. Mike and I got drunk the way teenagers get drunk. This weekend it was. We went to a beautiful uh uh charity event. Uh, here in the Charlotte area, uh, levine children's hospital does amazing work. We certainly celebrated that, and then it was. It was kind of like. It was a little irresponsible, a little tragic.
Speaker 2:I mean it was flow. Riderider was the performer and I definitely channeled like 21-year-old Mike and my body hated me the next day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had many. How do I put this? I'm just going to say it, I had many. I had no less than 18 white people come up to me and go I'm excited about Flowrider. I'm like there's no R, it's just Florida man. Like his name is get it, he's, he's from, he's from Florida, his name is Flo Rida. And they go. And then you had the moment they go ah, there isn't an R, is there? Like no, thank you for your donation. Uh, he was great, though. Like I mean he, he, he, he knows, he knows what his business is. Now right, like so levine children's part of his positive part of the, the atrium system. And I about broke when flow rider goes. Ain't nobody like an atrium party? I was like oh, no prompter, he just.
Speaker 2:He whipped that one up.
Speaker 1:Yep, he, he just he just insert, insert sponsor name Pay the man. Anyways, we got, we got drunk. We were morons. Like you know, it's bad when you're with a group of people and your wife was one of these people, rose Hayden and our friend Nazi begging like the backup drummer to play Pocket Full of Sunshine by Natasha Bedingfield. Just play it one more time. I'm like this is the lights were on and, by the way, you'd never get people to leave that want to dance. But you throw the lights on like a bright, like Home Depot type light, where where it is, and everyone vanishes real quick. After a night they've been sweating off like whatever their faces look like. Three hours earlier it's like people weren't leaving. You throw that light on, we scatter, especially this age bracket we.
Speaker 1:We scatter like rats in new york City with a loud bang. We are gone. I had a hangover. I don't really have those anymore. There are certainly weekends where I've made better decisions than what I made, and you were right there with me. Bottom of the barrel. It was bad. It's a team effort. Here we did Greg Olson of NFL fame. I think he I don't know if I don't want to project my drunkenness onto him you know, when you're like pretty drunk, you think everyone else is on your level, even if they're just, you know, kind of thinking to themselves. This guy's pretty drunk. He said he might come on the pod. He was telling pretty funny stories of, like, his tennis arc that he started in the last three or four years, which was pretty funny yeah, yeah, I think I, I think anybody that is a premier athlete like him.
Speaker 2:You know, I want to hear his take on learning the child, the challenge of learning tennis at this point in his life I just want to make fun of him, because there's nothing to make fun of him for.
Speaker 1:He's six foot four, looks like a, like an absolute viking nicest guy nicest guy.
Speaker 1:Uh gave the like. You know, sometimes they have us dummy athletes go up during these things and try to say something. He had no prompter. His son, tj, had been, has had a long battle and has been in and out of Levine Children's Hospital so he was an attachment to it. But no notes 12 out of 10 with telling his story and having some levity and he was just uh great. Hopefully he does. He does uh come on the pod, but um, anyways, we had a great time. Bad decisions were made. Florida, florida was great. Uh, we had a great time. Um, you know who had a better weekend than us and made a lot of uh decisions? The Danimal Danimal, daniel Collins. We're going to get into it in a little bit more depth, because I think that's the story from this week.
Speaker 1:In tennis is here continued dominance on the heels of Miami, switching surfaces, no problem, just running through the field again. Ben Shelton, all-american final down in Houston. Ben Shelton getting the win over Francis Tiafoe. Running through the field again. Uh, ben shelton, all-american final. Uh down in houston. Ben shelton getting the win over uh over francis tiafo. Francis need this, needed this result. Um has been short on matches, not his favorite surface. I actually think this is probably more significant at this part of the year uh for for francis than it was uh for, obviously, ben, first clay court title, second title overall, first one in the States, so not entirely unexpected. But for him it's good to kind of get some wins on this surface. And now scheduling is going to be a thing. We'll see how much he goes over to Europe, how much he kind of something that I've talked about with Ben's father is like at some point and we'll get into this further with scheduling.
Speaker 1:But you have to reset and maintain your physicality right. There's tennis, which the tennis is there. He's playing well, he's on the job training was kind of able to walk in and not have complete control over game planning, not have complete control over intent behind each intent, behind each shot. Uh, you know shot selection, all these things. But the rawness of his game is so powerful that he kind of got into the top 15, uh, before he actually understands everything at his disposal and when and how uh to deploy it. Um, so I think getting through matches like this tough three centers on clay is is going to serve him so well, so well, moving forward for the rest of the year. But Francis needed to win some matches. He had had a tough and I love Francis. We're better when Francis is playing well. But you know, I think he would tell you he'd have a bridge to sell you if, if, if, if he thought that he was playing well to this point in the season. Hopefully we can, we can turn that right around.
Speaker 1:But always nice to see two Americans in the finals of Houston. I wouldn't put too much stock in what happens in Houston. Any tournament that I made finals of on clay five years running you can't give too much credit to. You know, the Houston thing is it's great. You switch surfaces after Miami, um, but essentially it's.
Speaker 1:It's a two 50 event. You're playing against other Americans on clay, which is sometimes a liar's dice, and uh, maybe some players who are trying to sneak into two 50 and before they go over to Europe and over in Europe, starting, uh, his clay court season. Uh, early, wildly early. Uh, hubie Herkacz won his first clay court title. Doesn't get talked about enough. He's always kind of there in the top 10, top 15, you know, sneaks in the top eight, one of the biggest serves on tour. Nothing that he does well instantly translates to clay and is benefited by the surface. So for him to get through, kasper would going down in the semis, uh, her couch beating uh Martinez in the final. Who great clay core player. I think that's good for him. Uh on this surface, uh nice when you can break through and win. Uh on the different surfaces. But back to uh, danielle Collins, mid-50s, going into Miami before the first round, is now 15 in the world. Wow, what a difference two and a half weeks makes.
Speaker 1:But also like lost one set each of these tournaments. The first set she played in Miami and then ran through the draw, and the only set she loses in Charleston. I mean she drilled the last two opponents. I mean she went through a tough draw too Bedosa, jabbour, and Jabbour is the only one who won a set Sloan-Stevens, sakkari, kazatkin beating Kazatkin in the final one and two beat Sloan two and two Sakkari with straight sets.
Speaker 1:I mean the questions were I'm always a fan of after Miami. Is she going to pull out of Charleston? I I'm always a fan of after Miami. People are going. Is she going to pull out of Charleston? I go. If she's healthy physically healthy, like mentally, there's going to be a little bit of fatigue. You cannot choose when you play well, when you do, you max that out. I think Now it's going to be interesting to see what she does, because there is such thing as going to Europe too early, especially from the States, so it'll be interesting to see what she does here. But gosh, that turnaround from Saturday, final Tuesday in Charleston and then just right through I mean the day she beat Jabbour and Sloan it had rained. She played both those matches in the same day, one against Jabbour in the afternoon and Sloan at night and beat Sloan two and two Sloan's won this tournament before Can night and beat Sloan two and two Sloan's won this tournament before.
Speaker 1:Uh, can't say enough good things about. About Collins. Um, I don't know if just her impending decision on this being her last year has just freed her up completely mentally. Um, the physical part of it is so convincing right now with what she's doing, she is just setting herself up right on the baseline and distributing, just throwing punch after punch after punch after punch, and the fun thing to watch when someone is playing as well as Danielle Collins is. You know, you hear a lot of you know pundits and commentators say, well, they step up on big points. It's like. I don't think it's like a like we would just do that all the time If it was a choice like. I don't think it's like we would just do that all the time if it was a choice. I don't think it's a choice.
Speaker 1:What I felt in those four or five pockets of extended success, where you're winning a couple tournaments at a time, is the ability. You know you're at least going to play a good point, and if someone comes up with a good, it's too good. But you're going to make it an absolute pain in the ass, right? You're not going to miss second server turns. You're going to make it an absolute pain in the ass, right? You're not going to miss second server turns. You're going to move the ball around. They're going to have to come up with a winner. It's not that I know I'm going to win this point and I'm going to do it. You know I'm going to step up and hit winners. No, I am so confident that I'm going to produce a quality point that they're going to have to produce something spectacular. They know it, I know it. That's what I think confidence is is the ability to step up, regardless of situation, and simply play a quality tennis point and when you're not playing well, maybe you do it 50% of the time under the gun. When you are playing well, you think you're going to do it 95% of the time.
Speaker 1:Now it may not be a winner. It's not this flashy second serve. Oh, go for it, hit a win. That's not it. It's literally racket speed, big cuts to big parts of the court. Danielle Collins isn't. I mean, if she hits on the line it's kind of accidental. I mean she pulled at her. She's winning points.
Speaker 1:I've seen her hit more winners through the middle of one side of the court. Like you, you people are having to guess where she's going to hit a cross court down the line. Her margins are pretty safe. She's just hitting it so well, moving so well. She's not giving up the center of that court and is just distributing beautifully. It almost kind of like that's what Andre used to do. Right, it was like park himself on the baseline and he was just going to distribute. When your air count goes down and your winners go up, normally tends to have a good effect. But uh, congrats to daniel collins.
Speaker 1:Let's see what happens with a change of scenery when you go to europe. Is this two weeks going to be in a silo, of the best two weeks of her career, or is she? Are we going to be able to get it? You know, go over to Europe and have it translate. You know the feelings are different when you go over there. The clay is a little bit dustier, it's a little bit more slippery. We'll see. I mean, if she's hitting the ball this clean come Wimbledon and can hit behind people, I wouldn't want a player, I'll tell you that much right now. So, props to play her, I'll tell you that much right now. So, uh, props to, to to Daniel Collins. Um, as we see the tour transition from the hard to the clay, uh, you're going to see choices in scheduling. The next three weeks is going to be very apparent.
Speaker 1:You know, when I finished Miami, uh, when I stopped playing the Houston event, uh, later in my career you weren't going to see me for three weeks or a month, and it wasn't because I was on vacation, I was basically, I would go incredibly hard, like late November, december, training. I would show up to Australia and I was normally in great shape. You know, I would maintain through Miami. Uh, you're playing a lot of matches, but in the gym you're trying to maintain. And then Miami was over. I took the next three weeks and I would go back, maybe take three or four days of rest. I would stack it hard with fitness because I knew that that was going to be the cycle that kind of carried me through Wimbledon. That's the way I thought you're going to see people prioritize differently.
Speaker 1:A lot of players early in Monte Carlo. Casper Rude started this week in Estoril Like he's going to play every clay court event because he should you know that's his Australia through Miami. For me is this Monte Carlo through Roland Garros. You won't see him on a hard court after Wimbledon until he has to be on one. But scheduling choice transition's going to be a little bit different. The people you see earlier in the clay court season are probably people who are a little bit more native to the surface. Plenty of opportunity though Three Master Series events into Roland Garros, the long haul of the clay court season. There'll be a lot of dirty socks, mike Hayden, a lot of laundry going on over in Europe Will be fun to see Coming up. After the break we're going to kick to our guy, john Wertheim Big news that we covered for the T2 show that you'll hear now the Saudis and the WTA come into agreement to send the world tour finals to Saudi Arabia for three years and obviously there are some nuanced parts to that conversation.
Speaker 1:Past they were obviously the highest bidder. I tend to think the three-year give probably beats the yearly bids that I think was coming out. I think they were coming out of Prague. Is that right Czech Republic somewhere? It was Czech Republic, yes.
Speaker 2:Republic somewhere, it was Czech.
Speaker 1:Republic.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, so it was Czech Republic. So we'll discuss that in nuance. Nadal unfortunately out of Monte Carlo. We're getting to that point where it's becoming a little stressful when you think about Roland Garros. Apparently, it's an abdomen-back situation.
Speaker 1:Serve didn't look great at the match in Vegas. Everything else looks fine. You know you're watching Instagram videos and he's hitting the ball Great. Um, we'll discuss, uh, our thoughts and our general sadness around Rafa not being uh out on tour active and uh, he says my body just won't let me do it right now. Hopefully, uh, that changes. But, uh, we'll go to John Wertheim after the break. All right, and as always, my partner in crime here on Serve, john Wertheim. John, I know you wanted to go to Amsterdam. I know you wanted to walk around those streets. Can't tell you what you may or may not do in Amsterdam. Some people are known to do there. Won't project anything onto you, but you have had a busy week, uh, reporting all sorts of news. Uh, in the tennis world, it seems like there's a seismic shift uh in the game. I'm gonna let you kind of run with this. Uh, where are we going?
Speaker 3:man. Well, first, I can only imagine you're referencing biking, which is, uh, very popular in amsterdam. But no, I mean, uh, you know how sometimes we talk about roger rafa, serena Novak, distorting history and people are going to have to realize that not every player wins 20-plus majors. Kind of the same thing with news this week. This was not your standard news week and an awful lot. It seems like every time you logged on or woke up here there was something else. Spare a thought for Danielle Collins, who's a terrific story, but it's been buried a bit. You know we had Rafa pulling out of Monte Carlo and who knows what that means for this tail end, this sort of 26-mile of his marathon career. But it was really the off-court stuff again, and one day you and I are going to get back to talking about forehands and backhands and match results. But it just seems like we are in a crazy time with tennis politics and I was texting Mike and I said, look, this is not hey, the Rams might move from Los Angeles to St Louis, this is hey, the AFL and NFL are merging. I mean, this is really seismic, existential issues for tennis and one of them, the big one we can talk about maybe start.
Speaker 3:There is this official announcement. It was sort of an open secret, but now it's official. The press release came out. Contract has been signed. Apparently the WTA is holding its year-end final in Saudi Arabia. That's a big story for a lot of reasons. One of them just put this to the side, maybe. But this, the discussion we've been having about premier tour versus this you know, this sort of Saudi backed merger that Andrea Godinzi is having. That has a lot of implications for that Right Hard to have a premier tour with a mixed men and women's event when the women have just signed a three year event in Saudi Arabia. So this is sort of advantage, godinzi. But I think the big issue is just this is really controversial in a way Great. It's an infusion of cash to women's tennis.
Speaker 3:I mean, clearly somebody made a business decision. A lot of people have problems with it. We've talked about Chrissy and Martina. It didn't make much headlines. I don't think she's not going to qualify, but Venus Williams took a stand here. Venus Williams is someone with a lot of moral and principle capital here. Venus Williams would not go to Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 3:And again, my take on this is it's complicated. It's really easy to say blood money, sports washing. That's really easy to say hey, no country's perfect. It's a complicated issue, but I think one thing that I think we shouldn't lose sight of is that 30 months ago, the WTA pulled its business out of China, including the year and event. Why? Because, and I will quote Steve Simon, the CEO at the time here if powerful people can suppress the voices of women, the basis on which the WTA was founded, wta would suffer an immense setback. So that was 30 months ago, and now we are going to a country that ranks, I think it's, 131 out of 146 on the gender gap, where we've talked about women finally being able to drive.
Speaker 3:What people don't talk about is the woman that spearheaded that is now in prison on terrorism charges, where there is no penal code or homosexuality. It's criminalized. It's really problematic and you know, we can play the moral relativism game and we can sort of say no country is perfect, and we can do. Billie Jean King has spun this as hey, listen, this is how we build bridges and we make progress as we go in there and we sort of show people how to do it the right way. I guess I hope it goes well. It's a big risk, as I don't know if you're familiar with the work of the British economist Jesse J, but some of the writings include it's all about the ching-ching, bling-bling.
Speaker 3:I mean, this is let's just call this what it is I mean. On the one hand, we can say hypocrisy.
Speaker 3:We can also say listen, we're running a business here and there are there's a private equity firm that wants to see a return on its money. It's, this is basically just a cat, and I think also that you talk to people and even the press releases, I mean, basically it's just we need the money. This is a high bidder and we're going for it. And again, it's very hard to sort of square this with the stance on China, which was not even three years ago. It it's very hard to sort of square this with the stance on China, which was not even three years ago. It's a big move. Martina and Chrissy have been very outspoken. Venus Williams has now joined the fray. It's really problematic. Maybe this leads to great modernization and westernization and open doors and progress. That's the best case scenario. It's a little weird that women's tennis is parking their vent here.
Speaker 3:I think we're also seeing sports washing. It's quite a monologue, but I think we're also seeing sports washing. Right, this is how it plays out and at first it got controversial. And then you know, you have these actors that sort of soften the beach right and hey, cristiano Ronaldo's there, and we've had UFC's been there, wwe's been there, rafa is an ambassador and all of that has kind of softened the beach. So, yeah, we got this blast of outrage but it'll subside and a lot of other people have taken. I mean one thing I think we've talked about this One thing I'm sympathetic to the women.
Speaker 3:A lot of people have taken this Saudi money, from Phil Mickelson and Liv Golf to Dana White and the UFC, and now suddenly it falls on the women to sort of draw the line and say no, no, no, our principals are going to, are going to trump money. Is that fair? So to me it's really been interesting to see how this has played out. Right, I mean the, the PIF. You'll notice their logos were all over the back walls of Indian Wells in Miami. We talked about them buying the rankings. This wasn't live golf, this was the opposite. Right, this was sort of a slow, this was the. What is the cliche? The?
Speaker 3:frog in the boiling water right. I mean, this was sort of of Billie Jean King that's predicated on social justice and equality and feminism is going to Saudi Arabia, where women still need male permission to get married, where you know. Again, it's hard to pull data, which is another problem because you don't necessarily have that in authoritarian states. You can't find out readily what the divorce rate is or what women's wages are the way you could elsewhere. But between the Sharia law and just knowing what we know about women needing permission for freedom of movement, I mean at one point very recently the women needed male permission to leave a domestic violence sanctuary. Women are not treated equal here. Maybe that'll change. There's a big women's forum that's going to be held in Saudi Arabia. Maybe things are trending in the right direction. But right now it's really strange, all the more so given that Steve Simon, the CEO at the time, basically said we're leaving China because these values aren't consistent with ours.
Speaker 3:So anyway here we are big headline. We'll see how it plays out. I hope everyone's safe. I hope this is a step in the direction of progress, but it's really problematic.
Speaker 1:What has happened. The 30 months thing is a good point, but something significant has happened since the decision to withdraw WT events with and we'd be remiss if we didn't mention Peng Shui in this situation, where there's weird stuff going on that still hasn't been completely answered. For in China, two very, very significant things have happened since that decision in China 30 months ago A dumpster fire of a WTA finals in Dallas and a dumpster fire of a WTA finals in Cancun. The global market has spoken back and it has not been good news. They barely were able to land a venue for WTA finals.
Speaker 1:Last year was an outdoor event in Cancun. The wind was blowing at 87 miles an hour only a slight exaggeration. So you can, it's the old Mike Tyson saying right, Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth, right? This is a reaction to the markets, speaking to the powers that be at the WTA over the last two years. And so now you have somewhat, which is a. It just hasn't shown. This event on its own has not shown strength over the last two years. So we can, you know, pull the yarn on the sweater and see if the whole thing falls apart, where we're trying to figure out who's to blame for that, but simply, the last two years, the WTA finals has not been a product that the global market has been falling over itself to go put together an organized, structured event. I don't know if that's on the WTA side, because the product is certainly there, the storylines are certainly there, so I don't know where the blame lays. But that is a seismic shift from dealing from what you thought was a position of strength 30 months ago on the China stance and then saying you know what this is a. The only way to put this is that listen, we got caught overplaying our hand and now we're able to play for more money than at Wimbledon. Right, and it's eight players. And I don't know how it is for the ATP currently. I don't know how it is for the WTA currently. I know a moment in time I qualified for year end finals. I don't know what it was, it was eight or nine years in a row and I know that the ATP barely broke even because they don't. They're not part of the slams, they run the entire tour, they provide the infrastructure, they provide rankings, which apparently is a sellable asset, math, I mean, I guess. If you can, why not? But I know that they made their hay on world tour finals and that's where they made their profit in tens of millions of dollars, which is also why I never really understood when anyone on any of the tours had a problem. You don't need the whole tour to boycott. You need eight people to boycott anything to get it your way, whether it's length of schedule, whether it's prize money.
Speaker 1:There's a very, very clear uh in. In a normal business, that would have been leveraged very, very, very, very significantly uh, but the market, frankly, just hasn't spoken back. And now they get this offer, uh, from the saudis, and it's a weird place and I'm curious. I want to ask you a question, because there are very sane, respected icons of the game who are normally, generally, as far as thought, in lockstep with each other Right argument and Martina Navratilova on the complete opposite side of the discussion. Same goes for Chrissy, same goes for Rafa, same goes for Venus Williams and Ange Bourg. Right, they could not be further apart. Now Ange and Rafa are getting paid. I don't know about anyone else, I guess we'll see, but it is interesting.
Speaker 1:So listen upside. Maybe Billie Jean King is right, maybe they, maybe we are the vehicle for change, and I really liked one part of this press release, John, that at least now can it be trusted is a different thing. But you think with sports washing at least they're not going to create like an international incident, like you have to think that they're smart enough to avoid this, but they did put in there. Listen, the players will be respected, right, like if a woman is sleeping in the same room as a woman, we are not going to make it a crime for that room during that week, whereas normally it's like I don't know what the penalty is. I'm assuming it's pretty significant. So I hope and at least it was represented that the WTA at least it was represented that the WTA at least had the conversation to protect its players when going into that environment of all the garble that I just said. What did I get right? What did I get wrong?
Speaker 3:I think you raise a really important point that the casual fan might say oh, there's a tournament in Saudi Arabia. The same way, hey, there's a UFC fight in Saudi Arabia. You raise a really good point. I've heard one-third of the tour's revenues come from this one event.
Speaker 1:It's a big deal. You miss on that two years in a row. You're in problem.
Speaker 3:You have a problem, yeah exactly, and especially when you have this baked into the budget. When Ash Barty won the event in China in 2019, the one and only year I believe they had it there she won more money than any player in the history of tennis at one event Male, female, major, non-major. This is a big chunk of change that went away. I think the WTA thought the market would reward its courage and its principle and whatever they lost getting out of China, somehow they would make it back. Sponsors would line up to support this brave outfit. You know Microsoft and Starbucks and Facebook and Nike they all dealt business with China and held their nose. The WTA said no, no, no, this violates our principles, and I think the WTA overplayed their hand, thinking the market would reward this courage. That didn't happen. Your leverage goes down when it's August and September and you're still negotiating for a place to hold your finals in October. So we had two, as you say, highly substandard events and they were horrible.
Speaker 1:They were horrible, they were horrible, they were terrible. Dallas was an embarrassment. Cancun was not much better. Exactly.
Speaker 2:And the prize money in Cancun was at least $9 million, but that was up 80% from Fort Worth and so Cancun had a $9 million prize. This is now going to be $15.25, is going to be the prize pool, and China was $14 million for the prize pool and that puts it on par with the men.
Speaker 1:Listen, we understand what this is about. We understand why it's there, it's not. It's it's money and it's financial security. This isn't a one year deal, this is a three year deal. Right, I'm curious to see who has the option, when the option and when they can opt in. I got it. I hope that the WT at least has an opt out at some point. I'm guessing that gets tricky. Producer Mike, I want to ask you you've done a lot of work background in. You know NFL and UFC With the UFC they've gone there. You've had to kind of do some work. Like what is that whole situation over there? I feel like it's a.
Speaker 2:You're kind of always uncomfortable With the UFC. We actually dealt with the UAE and then recently we started doing stuff with the PFL, which loved the PFL, and they just held their first event over there. Um, you know what? And? And they, they rolled out the red carpet for them, you know, I think it. They made an investment with them, um, prior to buying Bellator and I'm not speaking out of turn, this is all like news Um but they rolled out the red carpet and they put on a big event and they want to show off these beautiful cities you know that they're building and these wonderful culture that they have, and all the athletes from who we filmed we do, we do a show called Fight Week, so we film their entire week and they went out and they were riding camels and doing ATVs in the desert and it was all the same stuff you see people doing in Dubai. Was it marketing? I think?
Speaker 3:it is marketing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's Riyadh season. I mean it's Riyadh season is what they do to celebrate the city and celebrate, you know, the family, and they're doing it to bring new and innovative industry into Saudi Arabia, and I think that's important. And I think that's important and I think, if you're the WTA, your job is to A get your players paid more money. It's your job is to grow the sport, not only in America but internationally. And if you have a country that is saying like, please come here and show your sport, if you're talking about making change, how do you make change in a place that is so closed off for so long without showing people what's possible for women? And I think I think that's a big key factor.
Speaker 1:I said this when John has been on this beat with the. You know the, the, the. This was going to happen since we started this show, you know, almost three months ago, two and a half months ago. Here's my take. Here's what the part that's going to piss me off Like I can hope that Billie Jean King is right. I can hope that if you go there and it's you, you can affect change, hopefully. Uh, I don't know that. I don't know that I trust it. I don't know that I need to. Um, let's like we can say all we want and grow. We can use all these kind of platitudes and it's about cash and one place has cash and they're using it to affect the way the world views them. Right, and it's going to be a slow burn. A lot less pushback on this than there was for Liv, just so we're clear. Like way less. Like the slow roll process that John was was talking about, uh, during segment one is working like we can be against it, but I'm saying like you start to be when you, when you see it every week, it's less shocking in week 112 than it is in week two. Right, and that's where we are currently.
Speaker 1:What will piss me off is if the WTA takes this money and then continues their marketing about X, y and Z. You know equality, progress, or stand on the shoulders of legends who have made us, took a stand for us and the whole thing. That's on shaky ground. That's on shaky ground now Cause you took you took the highest bidder. That pretty much disagrees with everything that you've been marketing, uh, for the last 40 or 50 years.
Speaker 1:I understand why you did it. I understand that you kind of had to. You know what they're not going to come out and say which is what I like, maybe the financial viability of the tour and your investors who just invested a shitload of money into it. Like you got to pay it, you got to pay the man at some point, right. Like you got, you got to, like, pay it down. Um, I think they were backed into a corner. I don't know that there was another option. There certainly hasn't been another obvious option the last 30 months since they made the stand. Do you disagree? Is there an option that's close to this, john, do you know something that I don't?
Speaker 3:First of all, I think this is when you get creative right. I mean, there's a lot of money here. Billy Jean King has a sliver of Dodgers ownership. The Dodgers have billionaire owners. I mean this is also when you can get creative. But I also think there was a check bid on the table that came very close. I mean that's. I mean it's one of you know the old Churchill line about sort of we know what you are and now we're just negotiating. It's a great Churchill quote. It's sort of like once you you know, once you've been bought, it's just a question about what price.
Speaker 3:But one of the things that someone expressed disappointment to me is look, this is clearly hypocrisy. This is clearly, as you say, the WTA was back into a corner. They don't want to be doing this. This is really about economic survival. But the money is not that good. At some level it shouldn't matter, right. But what somebody very close to these negotiations said is look, if we were getting double, if we were getting way more than what China offered, maybe we could at least make the business case.
Speaker 3:But when a bid? In the Czech Republic, where we don't need splashy press announcements about great same-sex couples will be allowed to share a bedroom without consequence. When a Czech Republic bid comes very, very close, it says something that you would take this Saudi bid instead. So I don't know if there was a superior bid, but I know there were bids that came awfully close and maybe that 10% margin is worth giving up. So you don't have to deal with all the backlash and you know again like I think at some level it's happened, the contract signed. It's not fair to the you know actually. Oh, the players need to boycott. I don't think that's necessarily fair In the best case scenario.
Speaker 3:Look, this starts a conversation and this is another blast of progress here. And this is all I mean. We do need to at some point concede Saudi Arabia is still an autocracy. You don't have women in high government. I mean, there's still a ways to go, but at least things are going in the right direction. The flip side of that is like I just think we're five years removed from this government. This isn't me talking. This is a declassified CIA document. The highest levels of government in Saudi Arabia either knew about or ordered the assassination of a journalist from the Washington Post. We're five years removed from that. If heaven forbid there were an incident like that. I mean, if I'm Billie Jean King and Rafa and Christian, not limiting it to tennis, I mean this is a big bet and I do think there were other options for the WTA. I think, honestly, they're pretty desperate and this leaving.
Speaker 1:China put them in a bad position. Do you know? So the check bid the price per year doesn't tell the whole story. Do you know if the check bid was a three-year bid also, or is it a one-year bid?
Speaker 3:I think the WTA wanted a three-year bid for a variety of reasons, which I think is smart. Charlotte was tossed around and maybe it moves there. I think honestly. I think initially the three-year bid was a way also to say listen, we're not going to Saudi. I mean, we've got an out right. It's only three years. There'll be someone else and we're not saying that we're moving Wimbledon. This isn't forever. But I do think what I heard is that there was a very competitive check bid. It wasn't maybe quite as good, but it was close. And again, you look at the press release and you look at the dollar figures. It's not as though Cristiano Ronaldo got a contract to play in Saudi Arabia that paid him more than Steph Curry, pat Mahomes, lebron and Aaron Judge combined. I mean it's just goofy.
Speaker 1:I mean, at some point it would be nice. I mean.
Speaker 2:Messi is getting more money than the top women's tennis player.
Speaker 1:That has no bearing on this. The market has spoken to Cristiano Ronaldo consistently and expensively for the last three years before he went to Saudi Arabia. Right, this is this is. There is a difference. There's no way that WTA was dealing from, it just wasn't dealing from a position of strength. The thing where you're talking about Cristiano Ronaldo got this to me. That's a bullshit argument.
Speaker 3:My point is if the women were getting 5X and you couldn't even justify this? They were blowing out the money trucks. Is this a different conversation? I don't know, but I do think there was a competitive bid and, for whatever reason, the WTA and remember. I mean one thing we haven't talked about, which really is in the weeds and we don't need to dwell on this, but they sold 20% of the company to private equity right.
Speaker 3:They spin this as though it's a strategic partner. We all know what happens with private equity. We all know their game plan and they want to get paid and they probably want to get out in five to seven years. And when 20% of your business is owned by somebody with those interests, you take the best offer on the table.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get it. One last thing on this, and then we'll kind of wrap until the next lightning bolt of the PIF comes down at some point. Is there a first mover advantage Because there are talks with this group of slams, you know, kind of headed by Lucier, who we didn't hear from this week, and Gaudenzi putting his group together has a billion on the table. Is there a first mover advantage for the WTA to kind of get entrenched there, and is that part of the strategy as well?
Speaker 3:Bingo. I'm glad you brought that up because I think this has real bearings on this sort of. You know, the biggest rivalry in tennis right now isn't Alcaraz and Sinner, or, you know, Savalenka and Iga. It's this two competing bids for the future of tennis. The Godemzi bid includes Saudi Arabia, it includes financial backing to the tune of a billion plus dollars. And, yeah, if you're Lucier and you have this event, you have this tour set up predicated on equality, equal prize money, mixed events, and one of them is a joint final. And now the women not only have committed to three years in a different location from the men so there goes your joint final but also they're doing it in the country that's supporting the other guys. I think this was a pretty rough week for the premiere tour and it was well played.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Good for you for bringing that up there has to be a world where I do you necessarily think they're mutual exclusive, like if the wta finals goes there, can't they just? And especially if the premier tour happens and all of a sudden the schedule is wide open, like it's wide open spaces after the us open, like they could still combine those right yeah, I just think, if you know, saudi Arabia's backed one bid, they want to.
Speaker 3:You know, ghodemzi basically said listen, I've got the bag and it's coming from Saudi Arabia, they want to. I mean, I just I think it's hard to sort of. Maybe there is some sort of gentle merger here, maybe there's some meeting of the minds. But I think this was a good, you know, it was a good week for Andrea Gaudenzi. I'll tell you that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, listen, there is a first mover advantage to where you're guaranteeing three years of success. The check bid may. I don't know what the check bid was. I don't know if it's one, two or three years, uh. So even if they're a little less uh, on an annual basis, one year versus three years is not the same um at all. Even if it's a competitive bid on a year to year basis, um, there are parts of this and full support is.
Speaker 1:I hate it that Ronaldo takes it, mickelson takes it and then it is expected for the females of the WTA to not be able to take it. That sucks. Anyone making that argument? I don't know that. There's absolute either way, especially after having two years of not getting that payoff for qualifying and being one of the top eight players. I'm suspicious of it. I hope nothing more than I'm completely wrong and Billie Jean King and Rafa are completely right. I would love nothing more than for that to be the case. I hope the protections for the players are as strong as represented in the press release. I don't think it's in Saudi's best interest for anything to happen along those lines.
Speaker 1:It kind of runs in the face of their entire sports washing operation. It kind of runs in the face of their entire sports washing operation. Um, you know, I I get the reasons why they made, uh, this deal. It's just a little it feels a little ick and I think it also runs in the face of, frankly, a lot of the marketing that the WTA has been putting out, uh, for a long time. So they're going to have to kind of swallow that whistle a little bit. Um, you know, I've I've kind of blowing the equality and, you know, doing the whole thing like nonstop. They just, I think they're going to have to like I don't know that they can keep marketing the same way that they've been trying to for that long.
Speaker 1:So last week, john, we talk about the USTA player development and there was some feedback, um, and now this week the USTA basically releases and I'll get parts of this wrong Um, uh, a plan over the next 11 years, uh, to add X amount of players to the game, basically introduce them. They want 10% of the country playing tennis. So this is a pretty clear indication that it's like listen, we're not going to be the minor league system, we're not going to be the Birmingham Barons. What we are going to do is specialize in T-ball, right, we want to bring more people into the game and hopefully, by virtue of more people being in the game, it's a volume play, right. Maybe we get the athletes, we introduce them early and then that kind of take free markets, take care of itself as far as player development. It seems like a pretty clear signal. We were wondering if that was going to be the case. It'd be too self-important to suggest that this release was in response to uh hegaris's email or our controversial podcast last week.
Speaker 3:Uh, but good for our show, it came where we can do a quick uh update um, yeah, you're right, I mean 10, 10 percent of uh, you know it's a lot, but 30 plus millions, a big number, um, I, 35, yeah, that's um, that's ambitious. I, you know, I I don't know if it's an either, or I mean it would be nice if somebody said listen, why are these mutually exclusive? We can continue to fund player development at the levels we had and not slash budgets by 50 or 60 percent, and we can grow the sport Resources are finite but again, the US Open, which is the source of most of the revenues here, is a pretty big, thriving event with new reservoirs of revenue
Speaker 3:every year. But yeah, it is interesting how this played out in the timing and Jose's letter, I think, made certainly within tennis channels, I mean within tennis circles, it made a ripple and I think a lot of people didn't realize the depth of the cuts. And when you say we are tasked with growing and promoting tennis and now we want one out of 10 Americans at a time when you know tennis, if that's a growth chart of my 401k, I'm not sure I love what I've seen the last 10 years.
Speaker 3:There is this threat of uh I don't know where you'll notice um.
Speaker 1:The word pickleball did not appear in this, but I wonder fuck me, don't get me started on pickleball this, yeah, you're quite a week. Uh yeah, exactly, fucking moron meat feeding the base, um god.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it is interesting that the same week that you have this esteemed coach with this cry for help about budget slashing, you have an email with an ambitious target. I mean, I think your point is a good one. This is diversifying your portfolio right, and not trying to pick NVIDIA out of the group. I mean, this is a much different approach to growing tennis. When suddenly we want 30 million people plus, I don't know if I don't know where that I mean it's, it's a tidy number.
Speaker 3:We can all wrap our brains around. I'm not sure where that number came from. I'm not sure how that is done.
Speaker 2:Because it's a marketing guy. It's catchy 35 and 35.
Speaker 1:It's catchy, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the yeah. I don't know what did you think when you did you roll your eyes? I mean, we applaud ambition, right? I?
Speaker 1:mean no, I don't, I didn't roll my eyes. I like the clarity, like we very, very definitively said last week depth versus breadth, right, like, do you go deep and you try to pick stocks or are you going and I can't argue against it Like we don't know. And this is the thing. Had player development, had data where they could say, no, this works because of X, y and Z and not because of the Catalina wine mixer, then they'd have an argument we haven't tried this, we haven't been as committed to the introduction. More fans in the stadium, does that mean more players? I know my life was changed when I saw pro tennis in the flesh for the first time. It completely changed my life. It made me want to do it, so I can't really argue against it.
Speaker 1:One piece of this that we ignored and Mitchell Kruger called us out on it on Twitter, rightfully so it was basically like, okay, player development is one thing. The rumors are that there's going to be a pretty significant cuts uh to uh, pro circuit, events, challengers, futures, uh, et cetera, and that's under kind of a different umbrella. Also, um, which we largely ignored last week or completely ignored last week. I actually called uh, mitchell yesterday, um, and I said listen, pointing out problems are simple, on the pod. I go text me anytime we get something wrong, always and forever. I want to have an opinion, but I want to, yeah, but I want it to be based in logic, right.
Speaker 1:And his point was simply like okay, the player development piece is one where you can go extremely wide, but if we don't have the infrastructure for progress in place, that's going to affect champions, right, if it's more expensive, where you have to go to like Italy is the example that jumps off the page for everyone In 2020, they really committed, so there's a future, a challenger. Every like I'll get that wrong 35 weeks a year in Italy right now, and it manifests in top 100 players. So should we have talked about that more? And is that?
Speaker 3:the concern. Yeah, keep in mind too, this is an organization that right now is spearheading an effort to have 14 events, uh, for them in the us. So you, you think they're slashing this sort of subcutaneous level. Now, imagine if this Premier Tour goes through.
Speaker 3:Italy is a great point, because not only I mean, think about that when you have this investment, like Italy does right not only do you give young players more chances to earn points with boot your rankings, with sort of kick-starts, your career, you also are cutting down on travel costs. You're cutting down. It's easier to play tennis right, it's easier to play professionally. The coaches don't have to travel as far. There are a lot of virtues to that, and Italy does not have a major.
Speaker 3:So I do think, like top level, what is the goal here? And is it to find the next Andy Roddick and Serena Williams and Coco? Is it to have X players in the top 100? I would argue that's been pretty successful, certainly empirically, but I'm not sure that translates to growth, I don't know. Does ESPN, wouldn't they rather have Serena Williams than five guys in the top 20, but who aren't going to be around from the quarterfinals on? But yeah, I mean the cuts to the lower level tournaments, which is how you get going. This you, you know, and you you have. This is. This is not dissimilar to the music industry. I mean, it's this sort of this is a common business riddle.
Speaker 1:That was kind of like I, I, I, you know, both sides dimmed to death for about a half hour, uh, and he was great, he was totally patient, like came in, he's like a rational thinking human, kind of, has eyes wide open, um, but his take was basically like, okay, I, he thinks the cocos and I hope I'm not. I don't think I'm misrepresenting what he's saying. The cocos are going to be the cocos, right, regardless of what's in place. He goes, you know. But what's at risk is this volume where all of a sudden we have tommy paul, francis, uh, taylor, uh, opelka, court, like if they don't all come up together and push each other, do we have, did we sneak a couple of those guys? And Tommy Paul's, you know, kind of on the precipice, but three of those guys are in the top 10, right, and maybe without any of them being the guy that anyone pointed at at 16 years old and said this is going to be the person, right, we haven't. You know, coco's, probably the most recent of those candidates. His kind of take was those are going to be, you know, coco's are going to be Coco's regardless. But we have to keep feeding the machine.
Speaker 1:And then one thing I asked was and I was does it matter? Do you have to play in a different place every week? Like, if we have minor league events? And I don't know if there was some facility somewhere that was owned by the USTA that had a hundred courts facilities in place players could train their coaches on site why couldn't you hold 25 events there a year? Why couldn't you actually take away eight courts? And do we? And it saves expenses for players. They're not traveling, they actually have training facilities If you lose first round, like, why are we not doing 20 or 25 events at the Orlando super center, uh and? And not having to, like, bid local clubs in Michigan or, you know, tuscaloosa or wherever else?
Speaker 1:I'm sure there's a, and I think the reason for that is most of that expense would fall on the USTA for operations. Now, the idea that I would have is listen, you have this huge asset in the US Open where people fight for sponsorships, and you have blue chip sponsors Ralph Lauren, jp Morgan Chase I mean, these are monster companies, right? I don't know what it costs per year, but it's a thread of the budget they spend at the US Open. Tack on some minor league stuff, right, let's have a minor league tax for each thing that's done at the US Open, right? 1%. Add it on, commit it to Orlando.
Speaker 1:Let's cut down expenses across the board. Some on hard, some on clay. You're getting all your young players where you've wanted them for the entire thing. If they set up residency there, all of a sudden it's a tax-free state. Right, like, there is a creative solution to there. There is money there. Let's keep the budget the same, but let's maximize tournament exposure. Uh, opportunity for, for, for upward growth. Uh, maybe I'm wrong about this. And ideas are simple, right, and execution is harder. Um, but listen, there's that venue. This is what you built it for. There's a hundred courts, you know, let's, let's, let's get to it, let's, let's leverage our biggest asset to pay off the next generations of players that those sponsors are going to want to be in bed with when they become the stars of the US.
Speaker 2:That's a good point. And when you look at the press release, when you look at the Forbes article that they did, you know there's no real mention of money. There's no real mention of like, what is this expansion really? When you look at the press release, it's just like-.
Speaker 2:You're talking about the $35 million, 35 or 35 deal, 35 by 35, like it's just want 10% of the US population, just 10% and so. But when you really look at it, right, there's no real plan, right, it's just a press release. And they're talking about, like, making more opportunity on courts and creating more competitive opportunities for all age groups, right, and so you're talking about the challenger series. We're talking about what it means for people striving to be professional tennis players, but they're talking about all tennis. They're talking about making courts more available. They're talking about making coaches more available. They're talking about from a 12 year old up to a 65 year old having tennis be more available to them and especially the minority communities having tennis be more available to them.
Speaker 2:So my question is to your point about finances is what is the cost of this? What is the actual capital outlay, if they do have a beautiful facility in Orlando where they can do some of this stuff? What is the actual plan? Because right now it's just a press release. That seems like they were trying to push back the tide a little bit, but I don't know, john. I mean, are you hearing anything differently? Are you hearing anything that actually has a financial plan for what it is, or is this just you know? Hey guys, this is a great idea. Let's do this by 2035.
Speaker 1:There are some questions. Here's something and it's going to take 11 years for judgment.
Speaker 3:I mean, you know there's one of these every few years, right? And some of this just backing up is the governance problem with the USTA. You have these rotating presidents in two years and this conflict between we've got this big, splashy event with, you know, luxury suites and hedge funds and gin categories and tequila categories, and then how does that translate to my program in Topeka when I'm trying to find a new squeegee for my court? There's, there's one of these every few years and it's the tennis welcome centers one year and it's sort of fast start tennis the next year, and you're right.
Speaker 3:It makes for a press release, I'm not sure, sort of where the details are and how you go.
Speaker 3:At a time when you know tennis courts take up a lot of real estate that can be developed for a lot more profitable enterprises, pickleball is siphoning a lot of players, for better or worse. I'd like to know a little more detail. Again, ambition is good. The more people playing tennis, the better, and I think maybe there is some thought that, listen, if somehow, some way we could get 30 million plus, we don't have to worry about you know, we have to worry about player development, because if one out of a million ends up as LeBron James, we've got 30 good players.
Speaker 1:But I'd like a few more details before we start holding parades all for it, like if, if, if this is reality and there is a plan behind it and they don't have to announce how you know they're, they're planning to, to, to make the sausage here. Like you know, it's a press release. You're only going to keep a captive audience. The Lord knows if we haven't learned in the last, however long, that people pretty much only deal in headlines. Uh, we never will. Um, so, if, if this is, if this is doable, I think it's a great initiative. I mean, you're, you're, you're basically going volume. Uh, you know you said diversify your portfolio. Uh, the misses will be less, uh, consequential. Um, so I like it. I think it's. I think it's great. I think you know it's an. It's a simple data set to where. These are the metrics we want. I actually like the clarity that player development has never provided. Player development after the fact says well, actually, the last five years we've been shooting for players in the top 100. You never said that before. Really, I mean, it's always like we're moving the goalposts and we're firing off fireworks on a goal that no one knew was in play.
Speaker 1:There is a bit of a culture in tennis to treat press releases like victories. You haven't done shit when you're just releasing an idea in a press release. I texted a friend of mine who's on the PTPA board, which is attempting to be somewhat of a players release. I texted a friend of mine who's on the PTPA board, you know, which is attempting to be somewhat of a players association they can't call it a union, but it's a union and I tried to ask a good question, because they made a big splash and there was a photo shoot and they're good at pointing out problems, right. They're good at saying this doesn't work. I am less impressed with that than I am. This is what the measurables are and this is how we're going to affect progress and change. I asked the question what do you think has been the PTPA's biggest accomplishment so?
Speaker 3:far. What'd you get? I'm interested to hear this.
Speaker 1:Literally. I don't think there's been one. I don't like we haven't. I don't know. That's a good question is basically the answer that I got. I left it pretty vague. It could have been anything. We could have gone to the.
Speaker 1:You know the old buzzwords, awareness, and you know all of those things that basically mean you haven't really done anything, um, but there is a kind of a culture of people digesting press releases as victories. I like the idea by the USTA. I hope they can execute. If I can do anything to ever help this idea, I would love to. I think it's great. I agree with the volume play. I don't hate it as much as my friends in player development. I think it's worth a shot. But to John's point, I do also think there's a world where we can chew gum and talk right. I mean, I don't know, easier said than done, uh, I guess. Uh, john, what else? What else am I missing? Oh, we have to talk about all of this stuff and we haven't even gotten to the fact that the greatest clay court player of all time oh him, yeah, mike yeah gosh, big news week, mike.
Speaker 1:Did you think that they'd like? Did you like? You come into like a whirlwind from someone not with a tennis background. All of a sudden there's like moving parts and hitting stories every week.
Speaker 2:It's like I think it's you I, I mean, I, I think you know the script writers worked out for us, you know, um, we, we told them we were planning on launching this podcast and we needed some juice, but it's pretty amazing. I mean it's sad to see, you know, the tweet from Rafa, you know, and that the sentiment is that his body won't let him. I mean that's like the saddest thing to read from somebody so great that just it has to be just crushing him on the inside.
Speaker 1:I kind of always have thought also that, like I've had this hope in the back of my mind that like he's going to get healthy and he doesn't need to be healthy for 52 weeks, he needs to be healthy for two months, like, and just burn it, go all of it, take all the, the, the, the painkillers that you need to take, and let's just, let's go time, let's do one more. And I always kind of thought we were going to have some version of that, maybe not winning, but like imagine him winning a third round of Roland Garros like a top four setter. The place falls apart. Like I want that for him. And similar to Roger, roger retired at labor cup. He probably wouldn't say this out loud. Roger wanted to retire, like a Wimbledon or us open and he wanted to play those. He wanted to do that, you know, he wanted to say goodbye and it happened in three days as opposed to three months. Right, it feels like we're getting closer to that being reality.
Speaker 1:For Rafa, when he was in Vegas, corners were tough. The biggest thing that I noticed and it's a tougher thing to observe with Rafa, because it's never been the thing that he hung his hat on the serving was tough. The serving was bad. Action pace, second serve wasn't kicking up in a way. That's tough. The rumor is the back is the problem. We don't know that. We find out a lot of these things after the fact. How do you feel about this, john? It makes me like kind of sad um, yeah, I don't know how.
Speaker 3:This is one of the great tragedies of sports. Right, you don't get to author your own uh ending?
Speaker 2:and certainly, roger wasn't able to you think about the way serena went out right, I mean realistically.
Speaker 3:Yes, it'd be great if she'd pulled a pete samperson, won the tournament. Short of that, she's in new york, she announces it's her final event. So there's all of this buildup. She hijacks week one, she pulls out a couple of great matches and then that's about as good as you could hope for this is not. I'm curious how you would game plan this, right? So, rafa?
Speaker 2:goes to.
Speaker 3:Australia leaves Christmas Eve, he's feeling better, he's going to make this one final push and he looks good for, you know, a couple matches, not necessarily against the highest caliber player, but then he tweaks himself, has to pull out and bar, you know, the exhibition notwithstanding, we really haven't seen him since. If you're Rafa right now, do you A say it's been a great ride. My body ain't cooperating. Here's, here's my vote. Maybe he it's like Angel Reeks, maybe, uh, you know, does a vogue first person, like serena did, um, but do you say you know what ball game do you try and play?
Speaker 3:Rome in madrid? You get to play in your home country one more time. It's clay, but you risk what happened in australia, which is you tweak yourself and you can't play the major. Or do you go to the french open without any build-up, without any sort of uh rhythm, without any match, play on clay and just say this is my last? I mean, it's really it's. It's a brutal, pretty brutal battery of options. But if you're, if you're, rafa right now and you're game planning this, um, what's your schedule look like?
Speaker 1:I don't know, because I can't feel what he's feeling. Um, obviously you want that goodbye at Roland Garros. It would suck if he can't get that. I gotta think every single like, if he's practicing but not serving, well, I still gotta think he's gonna throw that out there. Uh, in Roland Garros, if, if I mean if he can walk out there and at least play, even if it's not great. Like, I get that Monte Carlo. If I can't play 100%, I'm not playing. I guess I get it in Madrid, I get it in Rome.
Speaker 1:I don't think that line of thought holds water. He wants to say goodbye at the place that he's won at 14 times. I want that for him. But frankly, john, I don't think there's a plan. I think you're reacting to the situation and that is frustrating as a player, because we plan out our schedules a year in advance. Right, and you can plan. I like this tournament. I don't like that tournament. This gives me the best chance of success and you're pretty confident at a certain point in your career with what the best decision is regarding schedule, this wait-and and see situation and Rafa's the kind of guy who needs matches right, he's the guy.
Speaker 1:Once he gets going, you know Novak can come up, you know, traditionally has been able to come off not playing for three or four months and lock back in pretty quickly. Roger won the 2017 Aussie Open after not playing for six months. Right, goes in and beats four top 10 players or something like that three or four top 10 players and runs and beats Rafa in the final. Rafa, I was the same way. I needed matches, I needed reps. I couldn't just go play somewhere and look, and he's obviously way better than I am. But his game needs that rhythm, his footwork needs that cadence, that back and forth, that you know those little half steps, those half circles to let the forehand fly. He doesn't get the free points on a serve. He needs to be sharp, he needs matches.
Speaker 1:I've been holding out the conversation for, like, okay, how is he going to be competitive at Roland Garros? And now I think I'm at the point where, like, how is he going to play at Roland Garros, right? Um and it? It's.
Speaker 1:In all of our sadness, we do need to realize I didn't think he was going to make it past 30 years old with the way that, with the way he plays. Like, I don't, I, I, I saw him at, you know 17 and 18 and 19. I'm like there's no way that this way this guy plays, with this physicality and the mental focus that he has in every point it's weird to feel sad about. It's like feeling sad about someone living to 107 and then passing away Like you got to give credit for a hell of a run. I still want him to have that, that storybook ending, um.
Speaker 1:But frankly, he's played longer than I ever thought he would. I didn't see him winning two slams in 2022, being undefeated through like I'm not using a grand slam match until wimbledon and then having to pull out like and that's kind of where it started, kind of spiraling a little bit. But hell man, if you would have told me 10 years ago that rafa's still trying to play rolling garris 37, that's a win, not in, not in a small sample size, but in a macro 30 000 foot view.
Speaker 3:That's a win if you had told rafa that at age 37, he would be trying to play rolling garris.
Speaker 3:I think he would have signed up for that as well. So no, I mean, at some level, it's heartbreaking and this is not the way the great ones are supposed to go out. And you just imagine if, in fact, this is his last event he comes in. He's won this thing 8,000 times and now not only is he playing with zero match play and this fragile, unpredictable, erratic physical condition, but also knowing the knowledge that this is it. It is, you know, child's going to be there and his wife and everybody's going to go wondering this is it.
Speaker 3:I mean, what a burden, but I like the big picture you've taken, which is he missed the Olympics in 2012 in London and the rumors were finally, time has caught up to him and you play that full bore style and Roger's a sports car and Rafa's an SUV, and this is the running back whose hips are giving out on him and all of that sort of three yards in a cloud of dust. Tennis is finally catching up with him. That was 12 years ago. So the fact that he is still in the conversation, closer to age 40 than he is to age 30, I think is a big win Says a lot about his durability, his commitment and bodies give out, but, boy, I mean assuming he is in the draw. Could you imagine? We talked about how Serena hijacked that first week of the US Open two years ago. Imagine the French Open with Rafa, everyone knowing it's his last event with his history there and this uncertainty. We always used to say Rafa could beat anyone at Roland Garros at 60%.
Speaker 2:He could serve underhand and still get to the semifinals.
Speaker 3:Well, we may get a vivid you know, we may get a sample of that this year but it's going to be a very interesting French Open in about six weeks.
Speaker 1:Listen, if I could give him my healthy back, uh, to use for a couple of weeks, I would. I would be great theater. Um, I hope, I used to hope he would make this magical run and like to have a look at the basket, cause I do believe I'm one of those people when healthy, I wouldn't bet against him there. Um, but it's a big if. Uh, but it's a big if at this point, and it's becoming a bigger if by the week, unfortunately. I hope we get that moment for him to have at Roland Garros, the place where not a lot of active athletes walk past their own statue to get into the venue. I can't really think of any, actually, and Rafa, good, because we shouldn't wait until we're all old and crappy before we have to walk by a statue. I think they did the right thing, but hopefully he takes that walk past himself onto uh Chateau again. Hope it happens. Uh, jw, lots of good stuff this week. Thank you for the uh the education. Uh, don't do anything I wouldn't do in Amsterdam.
Speaker 3:Biking Always wear a helmet, wear a helmet. Wear a helmet, boys. Um, you know, next week we're going to talk. So you know we've got some match results. Players shooting up the rankings give Daniel Collins a big big political week here.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell Bryan next week speaking of the greats of the all-time. And they've promised me because they're great, they've been like a double mint commercial forever, like always smiling, always nice, doing their thing for tennis Behind closed doors, like their stories of when they fight with each other. Oh, if they tell those stories they're going to be some knees buckled. I'll tell you that next week and I I've I've talked with bob and he said he promises to let it rip if. If they go full letter rip tater chip might be our best show that we've ever had just the, the safest san jose.
Speaker 1:Get them going on what happened when they played together once in san jose they almost had to the first ever, very near default on account of uh sibling punch-up no, no, they there's, there's a wimbledon one there's, and without I'm not going to bury the lead that, uh, they won a match. Bob came home and they, they play music, uh, put his foot right through the middle of mike's guitar, uh, and then, and then I guess apparently I didn't know this when they told this they were generous enough to come to Charlotte and do an event for a foundation, but apparently one of them knocked the other one out recently before they retired in Australia, but the camera didn't get it, so literally one got knocked out. I hope they tell all these stories. I'm going to put them up to it, I'm going to call them out. If they don't, I might just kick them off if they don't, because it is phenomenal. But teammates of mine all through my career, great guys. But I think we have Bob and Mike on next week, so that'll be fun, jw, thanks man.
Speaker 3:See you guys.
Speaker 1:All right. Thank you so much for listening to another week of the Serve podcast with me. Andy, your friend, I'm excited for next week's episode. Two of my friends that I've known since we were all single digits age, not handicapped.
Speaker 2:They have some work to do for that I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm fine, totally a low single. Don't worry about it, bob and Mike Bryan coming on, which I cannot wait for, and forever and a day they have handled themselves the public-facing side. It's like a double mint commercial Always happy. I feel like I see them on like a two-person bicycle riding through an orchard or something Obviously wildly successful. More Grand Slam titles than any doubles team in history.
Speaker 1:First ballot hall of famers uh, in my, in my opinion, um, but having been around them for so many years at davis cup and other events, uh, they fight, and when they fight it is hilarious, and when they storytell about uh one, they don't. They've never called signals like crosses, mike. Like when they're on the doubles court they don't like. Everything you do is just based on feelings, like this twin thing. So we'll dive into that. Hopefully I can get them to talk about when they would actually get in fist fights and like punch each other. Hopefully we'll get them to the point where they're just kind of going at each other, ripping on each other and it's just. I'm looking forward to, hopefully, an immature mess of a show. That's my goal for next week's show. That's all we got for you. I'm Andy Roddick. Thanks for listening. Subscribe Apple, spotify, all the places you get your podcasts, watch on T2 and check out our YouTube channel as well. We'll see you next week.