Going Under: Anesthesia Answered with Dr. Brian Schmutzler
Going Under: Anesthesia Answered is a podcast with renowned physician and anesthesiologist Dr. Brian Schmutzler. Together with Award-Winning Co-Host and television journalist, Vahid Sadrzadeh, the podcast aims to answer not only your most pressing anesthesia questions but to provide the most up-to-date medical data available.
This weekly medical podcast will release a new episode every Thursday at 5 am. Thanks in advance for being a listener.
Don't forget to send your questions to Dr. Brian Schmutzler on social media and his website at www.drbrianschmutzler.com.
Going Under: Anesthesia Answered with Dr. Brian Schmutzler
Dark Day: The Freedom of Speech & Medicine in a Divided World
The shocking death of Charlie Kirk at a Utah college campus serves as the catalyst for one of our most timely and important conversations. What happens when we fail to engage in civil discourse? And how has this same polarization infected medicine?
This special episode with Dr. Brian Schmutzler and Host Vahid Sadrzadeh takes a look at the deterioration of free speech in America. The tragedy transcends political lines, revealing something fundamentally broken in our national conversation.
We also trace the politicization of medicine from the opioid crisis through COVID-19. Has medicine permanently crossed the point of no return where every new health issue automatically becomes political?
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This is Going Under Anesthesia. Answered with Dr Brian Schmutzler. I'm Vahid Sadarzadeh. We're brought to you by the Butterfly Network.
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Speaker 1:All right Again. Butterfly Network. Thank you for being our proud sponsor here for the second consecutive season of going under anesthesia. Answered a special episode here today, because we're actually recording this the afternoon that charlie kirk was shot and killed in utah at a rally that he was holding. Uh, was it in salt lake city?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to. It was Utah Valley State. I think it's Odin Utah, Okay, Ogden Utah, Ogden Utah.
Speaker 1:You know, and no matter what side you're on here, because this is not political. We're not going to make it political.
Speaker 2:There is a way, from political issues here. I don't really talk politics, but I think this issue we had to talk about today because, one, it just happened, and two, I think there are bigger, not just political, but just big issues in our country at this point.
Speaker 1:So go sorry, go ahead no, I was just gonna say. I mean, like, the first topic that we were gonna touch on is freedom of speech and again, we're not a political show. Um, do we have political viewpoints, absolutely? Um, are we going to stuff those political viewpoints down your throats? No, no, we're not and we never have. But no matter what side of the coin you're on, I think this has been a kind of a dark day, very, yeah, um, because his basis was freedom of speech.
Speaker 2:Yeah, talking things, going on college campuses and having a debate with people Mostly college students Yep, mostly college students and he would debate anybody. He'd go on anybody's show.
Speaker 1:He was just on Gavin Newsom's show right, I mean he would talk to anybody. He was supposed to come to Indiana, by the way, in October and was just at Purdue, I believe, a few months ago, Yep.
Speaker 2:I remember he did do Purdue, and I'll. I mean, I'll be honest, I don't know Charlie Kirk personally at all, but I do know people who know him personally who say he's an incredible guy. And again though, regardless of what you think you're, you're at a rally talking to college students, completely nonviolent, nonaggressive, just having conversations, and somebody shoots you. It's like it's just. I mean I'm angry, I'll be honest, I'm totally angry about it, you know, and I'd be angry if it was. I don't know who's somebody on the left, you know, I'd be angry if it was anybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Liberals, conservatives doesn't matter in the middle.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm angry if it's Putin, honestly. I mean, if Putin wants to come to the United States and debate with people Right, peacefully, and debate with people, fine, I mean I'm okay with that, we should have a conversation. So I'm angry about it. I'm sad because he's got a wife and two kids.
Speaker 1:And he's 31 years old, he's 31 years old.
Speaker 2:That could have been me right. So that makes me sad. But it also two kids and he's 31 years old. 31 years old that that could could have been me right. So, um, that makes me sad, but it also makes me angry and it it makes me a little bit scared that you know, and we talked about what if I say something that you disagree with right, what if I say something on in the medical realm that somebody disagrees with?
Speaker 1:they can come and shoot me for it yeah, it's, it's, you know, I mean, I think it's a a divisive world. Um, no doubt the the whole basis of and we even studied this in high school, in grade school, right, it's debate. Yep, can you hold a conversation with somebody and still hold your line, not be disrespectful about?
Speaker 1:it understand their point of view and know that no two human beings are the same. Oh yeah, Am I going to come at you for your religious beliefs? You know what I mean. Like this is again. It's why can't two human beings being the same room, have different views and have a conversation? Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, what is it that doesn't make me a conservative or liberal? And if you think, if you think for one second, that is the basis behind being a conservative or liberal, then I think people need to take a look at the problem where their actions lie or where their intentions lie.
Speaker 1:What is the?
Speaker 2:the phrase um I. I disagree with your point of view, but I vehemently defend your ability to express it. I'm butchering that line, but that's a line from the start of our country. I can completely disagree with everything that you think and say, but you should have every right to safely say that.
Speaker 1:Let me say something else. When somebody goes into the OR, do you look at their record and say oh look, you voted for so-and-so. You can't listen to Charlie Kirk. No.
Speaker 2:Do you look at that? No, I mean, we don't ever care about that, right, the patient is there for me to take care of. I don't look at that. No, I mean, we don't ever care about that, right, the patient is there for me to take care of. You know, I don't look at human beings that way, as conservative or liberal or Republican or Democrat. A baseball game together, or we're you know talking about. You know how hot it is outside, or how you know annoying taylor, taylor swiss voice is, or something like that. Right, like, I mean, we're just, we're having a conversation. I don't really care what your political views are, unless you put them in my face and then, if you do, we'll have a debate, but otherwise I and even then, even then but let's have a debate or have a discussion, let's talk about it civilly?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's where I think today was wrong. Yeah, 100%, and you know, again, it's way too early to figure out who this person was.
Speaker 2:Or why they did what they did.
Speaker 1:Why they did what they did was simply answering questions um in a debate style format. Um was gunned down in very graphic, plain sight um which was. You know, our kids are gonna see that, yeah for no reason I mean.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'll be honest, my kids were crying about it. We I mean we were all upset, but my kids were crying about it, not necessarily because of who he was, but it's it scared them right. That scared them, that somebody can walk onto a college campus to talk to people and get shot for no reason I mean the same day today, two kids were shot in a school in denver, colorado.
Speaker 1:I saw that I saw that come across.
Speaker 2:I haven't looked at that article yet, but I saw that come across too. You know what, and you know again, being apolitical here, I'm against. Come across too. You know what, and you know again, being apolitical here, I'm against school shootings too. We'll just put that on the record, right? I mean, anybody who goes and shoots up a school deserves the punishment that they get right, I mean that's it's.
Speaker 1:It's ridiculous too and look at what happened in minnesota, right equally right as bad and horrific and and you know when, when people think that you know their political beliefs are, come before humanity. Right, I'm just gonna say that, yeah, um, you know, I think I think we need to re-look at what we're doing, oh yeah, and, and the debates we're having and how we're having those conversations, well, and I think this is a big push, and not even on one side, but a big push on both sides.
Speaker 2:And the media, right. Everybody is your enemy right. So, on the right, the left's your enemy, on the left, the right's your enemy. It's like that you look back 40, 50 years ago. That's not how things were. We could have discussions, you could, you know. Look at the debates when Reagan and was it McGovern?
Speaker 1:No, mcgovern was earlier in 72. Reagan and Bush no, no no Bush was 80.
Speaker 2:Who did he run against?
Speaker 1:Dukakis.
Speaker 2:No, that was Bush that ran against Dukakis. Anyway, he Mondale.
Speaker 1:Walter Mondale. Mondale, yeah, from Minnesota.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and those guys vehemently disagreed, but they stood on stage, they laughed, they joked back and forth. You know that should be. You should be able to debate ideas, not people, and you shouldn't be hating people for their ideas.
Speaker 1:Well, and again I'm just reading here. I'm not expressing my viewpoints, I'm just saying as a breaking news source the Utah governor just said a person of interest is in custody and calls and calls the shooting of Charlie Kirk a quote political assassination and again reminded me very much of last July. Well, and it reminded me very much of you know, j J F K's assassination, you know in 1963.
Speaker 2:I wasn't alive to see that then, but there's been a lot of stuff about that, since I've watched a lot of documentaries and yeah, I mean that's awful too right, no matter what. No matter what you thought about his policies, no matter what you thought about him as a person. I actually listened to Bill O'Reilly's got a couple of books about him. I listened to those books Fascinating right. But yeah, nobody deserves to die just because you don't like their views.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We are a medical podcast and so let's talk medically about this. And in terms of viewpoints, right, there are a lot of viewpoints out there on social media and, um, you know, if you're a physician, because not you in particular, but the group of physicians or medical professionals that go online and express their viewpoints, you know, do you find this to be almost? You know? I mean, freedom of speech does include social media platforms, correct? You're on social media platforms. Does this give you hesitancy, pause? Does it give the medical community, you know? I mean like, just look at how I'm going to use that word again divisive? Oh yeah, it has been certain medical issues, for sure, since RFK came into his role. Look how the country is kind of divided On a health perspective, on a health perspective, yeah, and so I would say we're not a political show but we do have controversial medical opinions, sometimes right.
Speaker 2:Like you know, I just destroy the insurance companies because I think that they're evil. I think that's probably a controversial opinion. To some people probably not a whole lot, but to some people that's probably a controversial opinion. You know, if I came out and said I'm not getting the COVID vaccine, would that be a controversial opinion? You know, if I came out and said I'm not getting the COVID vaccine, would that be a controversial opinion? Would somebody come shoot me because I said I'm not getting the COVID vaccine? I mean, you know, I think I think I, in areas that I know a lot about in medicine and anesthesia, I have opinions and some of those opinions will be controversial that you're an expert in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and we talked about this last week that you're an expert in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and I mean like when it comes to the medical profession, I mean I think in recent years there's been more of a voice because of more individuals coming to you know, because of the social media, social media is part of it and I think just media in general.
Speaker 2:Right, I think there's more physicians on television, whether that's local television doing spots.
Speaker 1:And they're giving their opinions Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we give our opinions and I think you know, while it's maybe not touching quite the nerve that some you know more political opinions are, I still probably am touching nerves on people who disagree with my opinion. I mean, we've had quite some vitriol Even by mentioning the name RFK Jr. We had quite some vitriol when I simply was just quoting what he had said. So, yeah, I mean it's scary. Like I said, I think overall it's scary and it makes me mad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think again, no matter what side you're on, I've seen plenty of posts on social media today Friends that I know are Republican, friends that I know are Democrats, friends that I know didn't vote at all, yeah Right, who just have beliefs and want healthy debate and the freedom of speech, who have posted this and reposted this.
Speaker 2:I would say, overwhelmingly, people are condemning this and not the like condemning, not the same condemning, let's be honest, not the same condemning that we did of when the CEO of United healthcare right, there was a lot of qualifications in that that we talked about, you know. I think people are truly, or that people talked about. I think that people are truly condemning this act for the most part. There was some anchor and I can't even remember what channel it was on who said something about how, you know, his discussions brought this on, which is absolutely ridiculous. And and there's people already calling for that guy to get fired and I I agree. I mean, you can't, you can't ever say that what somebody said made them deserve to be shot. So where?
Speaker 1:where are we? I mean, not we're on the topic here, but where are we um in 2025? I feel like. I feel like medicine has become political, political 100. I mean, do you feel like it was like that when you're going through medical school? Did you feel like it was somewhat?
Speaker 2:so in what ways? So I think the biggest kind of political issue when I was coming up through medical school and it's actually near and dear to my heart so it really ticked me off at the time was opioids. So you had that whole time where Purdue Pharma was pushing out all this stuff about how pain is a fifth vital sign and really corrupting the entire medical industry into giving everybody a bunch of opioids, Right.
Speaker 1:So I think because of monetary reasons. Basically, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Purdue Pharma made billions of dollars off their drugs getting people hooked on on opioids, so I think that was somewhat political, but not to the same way that this is Right. So so you would get. I got grilled many times because I said well, opioids don't treat pain, they just dull your senses. The only things that treat pain are things that treat inflammatory pain or neuropathic pain, and opioids do neither. So I would you know.
Speaker 2:This is while getting your PhD. This is while medical school. Yeah, so they were. Oh well, you're just, you don't care, you're medical school. Yeah, so they. Oh well, you're just, you don't care, you're not. You know, you're not compassionate to the patients other other physicians said that to you. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, like no, I. I understand pharmacology and I understand that these drugs are addictive and giving them to people is not going to treat their pain. So, um, I think that was somewhat political, um, but not not to the way things are now. Right, right, I mean, and I think COVID pushed it that way.
Speaker 2:And then I think you know, even for the last, probably eight to 10 years, the nutrition industry you know, I think it was more fringe, maybe before the last, maybe four years, three to four years, but I think I mean our food is poisoned, right? I mean most of our food is just terrible, right? So you look at nutrition and people who are pushing like eating a keto diet, eating carnivore diet, eating, just, you know, non-processed foods. I mean processed foods, literally, and we talked about this at ASMBS right, processed foods make you fat, right? Not necessarily just the calories, calories, but the way that they make your body react and the hormones they activate. That sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:So but they're also telling okay, I mean, let's just be real here. You know, they say protein packed on every single item now right I mean, like 90 of you know it could be cereal with count chocula protein packed 100 real cheese right, I mean. So, like you're eating, like what are those? I don't want to call the company out, but like you're eating one of those, uh, not neutral grain bars, but you know what I'm talking about like a kind bar or whatever.
Speaker 2:Right bar, yeah, granola bar, right yeah, protein yeah right, it's mostly sugar, yeah, right so. So what? What a lot of people say now and and again? I'm I'm not pushing like eating all natural or whatever I mean.
Speaker 1:I but this has even become a political. It has become political.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm just. But I'm just saying, yeah, you, you should. If it doesn't come from the ground or from an animal, you know, and it gets processed, it's probably not good for you in general, right, um and. And it became political on both sides. Right, it became political on the side of the what we sometimes lovingly refer to as crunchy people who are like I only eat organic and blah, blah, blah. But it also became political when the AHA, the American Heart Association, comes out defending Coke, sugar Coke for school lunches. Right, I mean, how does the american heart association come out and say that? Because they're in the pocket of big sugar or whatever. So, um, you know, I think that became political too. But the big driving force, which is the elephant in the room, was covid. Right, covid is what, what made medicine political, right?
Speaker 1:do we ever take a step back from that now? Do we, do you ever recover? It's like. I mean, it's a weird comparison. I don't know why I thought of this. Um, and it's too late to backtrack now all right, let's do it let's do it. But like okay, our interest rates are really sky high. Yeah, are they ever going to fall back? I mean, do you ever walk back an issue that has become political becoming non-political? That's the question.
Speaker 2:So like yeah, that's hard. I mean, I think the opioid thing has become non-political now, but only because of exposure, right, because purdue pharma got exposed. As we knew this was just addicting people, not treating their pain, right. So I I don't think anybody's now going to argue like, oh yeah, opioids are the greatest thing in the world, but now every time a new disease is introduced into this country is the automatic thing.
Speaker 2:It's going to be political A hundred percent. To be political, yep, a hundred percent, because the pathway has been set. And so the answer is money. What's the question? I say this all the time right, there was money to be made, right, no matter what you think on both sides. Right, there was money to be made on both sides of the COVID debate. So if there's money to be made, there's always going to be divisiveness.
Speaker 1:Here's. Here's what I will say, and we'll kind of go back to the Charlie Kirk thing. Yeah, because human died today, very sad. Our freedom of speech was took a hit, for sure took a hit, um, and what I will say is this there's a lot of people in the comments of your social media page who like to go back and forth and banter yep, oh yeah, which I love.
Speaker 2:Please correct.
Speaker 1:Continue to have respectful civil yeah, debate yeah, and that's all I ask. Yeah, is respectful civil debate? Because, you know, everybody is from a different background, a different area, different country, different religious beliefs, different political beliefs, but when we can't even have healthy conversation, I think something has gone awry. Yeah, something's broken.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think you know. There's a couple of things I want to say here. So, number one you are unlikely to change somebody's mind on social media or even what Charlie Kirk was doing, which was going on on college campuses. You're unlikely to change somebody's mind. But you might plant a seed of something that they later on say, hey, there was some truth to what was said then. Right, but they're not gonna. They're not gonna go back. If you're disrespectful or mean or jam something down somebody's throat, they're not gonna go back to that nugget and say, oh yeah, I remember that I should. Maybe that does make sense. But if you're respectful and you say, hey, listen, I disagree with you, disagree with you. I think that you know. Make it up. The sky is actually green, not blue. I'm just making up.
Speaker 2:The sky is actually green, not blue, and this is why and you say it respectfully and they say, oh, you're wrong. Okay, but this is why I think it.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, we'll just we'll agree to disagree. It is kind of green, so I I think that's the important thing is, um, it's hard to change or improve or not even change. Just see the other viewpoint if you're so interested in hearing yourself talk echo chamber. Yeah, and I think you know you've changed over the years. You've had different viewpoints over the years. You've accepted different viewpoints over the years. You've had your different viewpoints over the years. You've accepted different viewpoints over the years. I have as well, and you're never going to learn, grow or change as a person if you're not willing to hear somebody who doesn't listen to somebody else well, a lot of.
Speaker 1:And I'm not just spouting this crap. Yeah, I'm. You know, I'm in my mid-40s. I have two children. I've been in the journalistic profession. I want to ask have two children? I've been in the journalistic profession.
Speaker 2:I want to ask about that.
Speaker 1:I've been in the journalism profession for over 20 years now 25 years and I have heard viewpoints, I have accepted viewpoints. My parents are not from this country, right, but it doesn't mean I can't accept and change and listen and grow myself and that's the reality. And if you're not willing to do that, you're, you know. I think like we need to change that. You're not going to again. You're not going to change everybody's mind. You're not. That's not the point. It's why don't you listen to my viewpoint? Yeah, if you listen to me, I can listen to you, right, and then we can empathize, right, I don't like the Colts, I like the Packers. I'm not going to you know, you're just wrong.
Speaker 2:But no, I'm just kidding, so so let me know.
Speaker 1:Seriously, I mean, it's a debate, right.
Speaker 2:What's the feel? What's the discussion in the newsroom, because that's a different. Didn't get to talk to anybody about at the hospital, but what? What's the what's the discussion? What's the sense in the newsroom and and of your colleagues in the news industry?
Speaker 1:so I'm lucky to work in a newsroom that is very bipartisan yeah, meaning I would say they're even keel yeah meaning I've worked with some of these people for years and years and years and, um, you know who I work with, um, have they have many different viewpoints, okay, uh, younger newsroom, many different viewpoints, and I would still say, journalistically speaking, that you're able to put aside your own, your own belief system, because that's what we do as journalists supposed to, you're supposed to, that's what you're supposed to do. Now again, the world isn't made of of what you're supposed to right right, and that bleeds through sometimes.
Speaker 1:However I am, I feel like I'm lucky to work in a newsroom where we don't view it that way and we have a news director who doesn't, yeah, view it that way. Now, all newsrooms aren't like that? Oh, I'm sure not. Yeah, and you know, even even listening or watching television after this event happened, you'll see the both sides of it, both, both. Yeah, you'll see both sides of it. You had one person saying this on this network and you had one person saying this on this network and it's. Why are you saying it that way and why are you saying it this way? But I feel like our responsibility is to present the present, the facts, and the facts of the matter is an unarmed person who is holding a peaceful rally was murdered in broad daylight, right.
Speaker 2:So that is what happened what is the, what's the general feel? And maybe you can't tell me, but what's the general feel, what's the general discussion in the newsroom about the charlie kirk murder?
Speaker 1:um, I don't think there's been enough time to marinate on it. I'm just, I'm being real. I I think we can come back to it next week. Okay, yeah, you know once there's been time. Yeah, um, I think the overall feel is that holy crap, yeah, this because it's going to be bigger than just this. It is and because, and why, and why do we cover the story? It goes back to the simple fact of a our freedom of speech. That's what.
Speaker 1:That's what journalism was right, founded on exactly yeah, is journal, is the first amendment is journalism speech and if we're not allowing people to have their viewpoints and speak freely, um then how are we different from other countries that experience?
Speaker 2:this all the time we're.
Speaker 1:North Korea. Right, we've become North Korea, yeah. Secondly, this is the second time. I mean, if you want to call this a political assassination this is the second time in the last month, aside from Minnesota, that we've had people with viewpoints specifically hunted down and shot because of their viewpoint on something. Yeah, and so again.
Speaker 2:You got the train in north carolina too, correct?
Speaker 1:yeah, the stabbing there, yeah, so again, this doesn't have anything to do with what side of what side of the political aisle you're on. If you're on either side of the aisle, you should be angry. This is dangerous. Yeah, that's why I think that's the pulse of the newsroom. Okay, the pulse of the newsroom is oh man, we're in trouble. This is a, this is a trend and not just a one-off. Oh look, this happened again. Situation, right, right. And so when that happens, I think I mean you know the very basis of what we do is threatened. Yeah, right. So, um, again, I, I don't think this has again, if you're going to look at it as a political view, okay, you look at it as my viewpoint is this has nothing to do with politics and this has everything to do with. Can we listen to each other? Is the freedom of speech, yeah, is that in danger in our country?
Speaker 2:Yep, and the other thing I was going to say when we were talking about debate. I think one of the big problems is we don't do debate in school anymore, not even college.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, we talked about that briefly earlier in the show. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we don't do debate. We don't have debate class, right, and the joy of debate class is that you had to take the opposite view.
Speaker 1:Correct Opp you had to take the opposite view.
Speaker 2:A good teacher made you take an opposite viewpoint right.
Speaker 1:Even though, if you didn't believe in it, right.
Speaker 2:Like again I go back to the sky is green, the sky is blue, right? Hey, the teacher knows you think the sky is green. You have to defend the sky is blue, right. It gives you the perspective of oh, I can see why they think I still disagree, but I can see why they think that and guess what, it doesn't really matter, right, Ultimately it doesn't matter. It matters Obviously.
Speaker 1:These political things matter, right, they matter to life, but it doesn't matter for our relationship, Right, we can disagree about almost everything and I can still, at the end of the day, go back and say hey, brian, you want to share this 30-year-old bottle of whiskey that we have, and bourbon, and we can debate over bourbon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Exactly, or talk about something we agree on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Talk about how bad our kids' football teams are. The Raiders yeah, god bless the Raiders. And the Eagles, and the Eagles yeah, how do you guys beat us this week? The varsity, the varsity, our.
Speaker 2:JV's struggling a little bit, I do. You know, whatever your political or religious persuasion, I do want to take a moment of silence at the end of our podcast today, right now, just to you know, because again, someone lost their life unnecessarily. He's got a wife, he's got two kids that are going to grow up without a dad, so I think it's worthwhile to just take a moment of silence before we close out. You're all right with that?
Speaker 1:yep, all right going under anesthesia answered with dr brianmutzler, brought to you by the Butterfly Network. Brian, thanks so much as always. We'll talk to you next time. We'll speak to you next week.
