When entrepreneurial fervor meets an insatiable urge to shake up the norm, you get the captivating story of Aaron Ward.
Our exchange with the Ask Nicely co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer is less of a conventional interview and more of a masterclass in turning the kernel of an idea into a global phenomenon. As we unfurl Aaron's narrative, you'll be privy to the raw, unvarnished truths of startup life — from weathering financial pressure to the thrill of winning the first big client catch by delivering on a promise before a product integration existed.
But it's not all business tactics and growth strategies; we also delve into how incorporating Maori cultural values into Ask Nicely's ethos has resonated with customers worldwide.
His conviction in embracing the 'madness' of entrepreneurship is encouraging for fellow founders to cherish the unpredictable journey that is building a business.
You can connect with Aaron on LinkedIn and be sure to check out AskNicely.
When entrepreneurial fervor meets an insatiable urge to shake up the norm, you get the captivating story of Aaron Ward.
Our exchange with the Ask Nicely co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer is less of a conventional interview and more of a masterclass in turning the kernel of an idea into a global phenomenon. As we unfurl Aaron's narrative, you'll be privy to the raw, unvarnished truths of startup life — from weathering financial pressure to the thrill of winning the first big client catch by delivering on a promise before a product integration existed.
But it's not all business tactics and growth strategies; we also delve into how incorporating Maori cultural values into Ask Nicely's ethos has resonated with customers worldwide.
His conviction in embracing the 'madness' of entrepreneurship is encouraging for fellow founders to cherish the unpredictable journey that is building a business.
You can connect with Aaron on LinkedIn and be sure to check out AskNicely.
I suffer, hopefully, from a healthy level of discontent for the status quo. I think there are things out there that there are plenty of things that can be and should be improved, and we need founders that are prepared to get out there and swing the bat and miss Aaron is the co-founder and chief strategy officer of Ask Nicely.
Speaker 2:There's a great quote from I think it was George Bernard Shaw, and he has a quote all progress relies on the unreasonable man, somebody who doesn't necessarily ascribe to the status quo. So by definition they're actually being unreasonable.
Speaker 1:Never tell me the odds. If you knew the odds of success on starting a startup, you wouldn't do it. There's a level of craziness required, but I'm attracted to it. I like those odds. I think that's how we discover the new, that's how we evolve as a species, when we're out there trying to prove a new formula, a new theory. So that's what I like.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan. Welcome to my podcast, where you will hear from a range of guests, including those from the startup world and those that have had incredibly interesting lives and some stories to tell. I would really appreciate it if you could hit the follow button and share this amongst your friends, but, as you know, time is limited, so let's get on with it and hear from our next guest. My guest today is Aaron Ward. Let's get on with it and hear from our next guest. My guest today is Aaron Ward. Aaron is the co-founder and chief strategy officer of Ask Nicely, and I'll get Aaron to talk a little bit about what Ask Nicely does shortly. I met Aaron when I was in the US at Sasta back in September of 2023 and was just super, super impressed with the guy, and I've had a few conversations with him. We've even done a brekkie at some random little airport in San Mateo in California. He is one very, very impressive individual. Aaron, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Greg, Good to be here with you. I think with that intro you're way too overhyped me, but I'll do my best to live up to at least some of what you said.
Speaker 2:I don't think anybody could overhype you, mate, and we were just sort of chatting offline and just riffing as you do. One thing I know about you, mate, is I know that you went to Long Bay College and I'm a Rangitoto College boy, which, for those listening outside of New Zealand Aotearoa as we like to call New Zealand here they are rival high schools. They're about, I don't know, maybe 10, 20. Fierce rivals they are. They are, they're like fierce rivals. And so as soon as I knew that Aaron was a Long Bay College boy, I kind of had to kind of up my game, actually a little bit. But, aaron, I'd love to kind of start with that and start before we get into the story of Ask Nicely and the journey around that, I'd love to know a little bit about your origin story. We can even go back before Long Bay College if you like. Were you one of those kids that was always destined to be an entrepreneur?
Speaker 1:Well, if I was, goodness knows, I didn't realize that and I think that my own career is a bit of a drunkard's walk. It's never a straight line, certainly wasn't for me. You know, I believe in sort of the roomba approach to strategy. You know the little robot vacuum cleaner that, uh, you know, it sort of keeps butting into walls until it finds the path that it needs to, it needs to take, you know, and I look back over my career in history and try to make sense of it in the rearview mirror and there's no sense to be. You know, there's nothing sort of necessarily logical. I've hit a bunch of brick walls through my time and, you know, found myself, you know, fortunately landing in startup land in a role in a company that I really enjoy and am energized by. But to make sense of the path I've got here, I think that's kind of tricky.
Speaker 2:You grew up in Auckland, though, and spent most of your time, I think, living in Auckland, and then we'll talk about the US shortly, where you are now as we record this, but tell us a little bit about that early origin story for us, nicely. I have heard this. I've heard you speak at Southern SAS, and you gave an amazing presentation, actually at Southern SAS in Auckland back whenever that was, you know, six months ago, but I would love to hear that early origin story, for there's so many people that are going to be listening to this haven't heard how Ars Nicely got started. I'd love to kind of dig into that a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, I guess we saw an opportunity when I say we myself and my co-founder, john Bellinger saw an opportunity to really change the way that service businesses in particular deliver an awesome experience to their customers on a daily basis. And it started with a fairly simple insight, which is in the service sector, you can, as a customer, go into a store and get an awesome experience one day and then the following day get an awful experience. It could be the same store, it's the same product, it's the same price. What changes is the humors, the frontline worker behind it that's serving you. And so we thought to ourselves well, goodness, how is it that you happen to go about motivating a frontline worker to deliver a great experience to customers every day? And we thought about frontline workers. Like, they don't get a lot of feedback right, and chances are, the feedback that they do get from customers is when things go wrong.
Speaker 1:And we applied a bit of behavioral psychology that I think we all lived as humans back when we were four years old in kindergarten, and there's that moment when, you know, the teacher puts a little gold star behind your name and says well done, you've done well there today. And we said, well, goodness, I remember how that felt as a four-year-old and then, 40 years later, I still feel that feeling when somebody comes to me and says, hey, aaron did a great job on that Well done. It's extremely motivating and energizing. And we said, well, goodness, if we could make that moment, make that feeling a part of a day-to-day for people in frontline roles. We think that can make a difference to the experiences that they're delivering to customers.
Speaker 1:So a much shorter way of describing what Ask Nicely is is about getting feedback from customers after they've had an experience with a brand and making sure that feedback gets directly to the person that delivered that experience, so that they know that what they do matters and is valued by the customer and appreciated by them, but also by the leaders in the organization who have an opportunity to sort of catch you in the act of doing things right. So I mean, that's really the job or the mission of us nicely. And the way we, you know, looked at that and said, well, we can actually build a global business. This is a massive global market opportunity that nobody is really tackling. But at the time we were two guys sitting in a garden shed in Ponsonby in Auckland. We had this sort of reasonably audacious vision to tackle. We said I'm going to crack into it as two guys with a big, bold idea and thankfully that's gone pretty well for us.
Speaker 2:And from memory you've told the story before I've heard you talk about this publicly where you and John I don't think you were in business together at this point when you first, you know, just before you started, and I think he made some comment to you around the long lines of and I'll screw this up, I'm sure, but it was something along the lines of and I'll screw this up, I'm sure, but it was something along the lines of if you do come up with a great idea, then you know I'd love to be in business with you. And then, when you did get the idea, he started work on it immediately and I think he had a almost like a V1 out within 24, 48 hours or something he started coding that day from memory.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yeah, well, I think I've known John for 10 years and he's a particularly special individual. He's got that sort of mixture of Steve Jobs and Wozniak. He's a mad inventor and when I met him and first did a couple of projects with him, we discovered very quickly that we had an uncommon chemistry together. Where each of us was weak, the other had a strength and we were able to, you know, together perform, you know, to sort of complete each other a bit.
Speaker 1:And I knew from that moment that I wanted to go into some form of business with the guy, just didn't know what. And over the you know, the course of the 10 years of knowing each other, I would walk up to his house and I would pitch various ideas to him and he would very quickly dismiss each and every one of them and dispatch me away and tell me don't come back unless you have a decent idea. And after literally 10 years of this back and forth, I rocked up and he told me later. He said look, I was going to tell you don't come back again.
Speaker 1:The two of us went and sat down in a bar on Ponson Road and I shared the basic idea that was to become artists nicely. And he said finally, you've come up with a decent idea, I like it, I'll build it. I'm over the moon excited at this. And I said awesome when he said tonight he said stop talking, you talk too much, I'm going home to start coding. And he literally picked up his MacBook and it was 11.30 on a Tuesday night and he walked home from that bar and literally started building the prototype on that night that's insane and I also heard you tell a story about.
Speaker 2:You had a potential customer quite a large customer I think on a phone call and you were both working in the garage at this point and he overheard the conversation and I think they said something like, have you got this particular feature? And you said, or he said, yes, we do, even though you didn't. And he started building the feature almost while you were on the phone call and it was, I guess it's that early responsiveness, that is that embedded into the DNA of Ask. Nicely that you know. Let's make this happen, let's satisfy what the customer wants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it absolutely is. So we have a set of values in the organization. One of those is love your feedback. Now, of course, our business is built around collecting feedback from customers and getting that to the front line, but love your feedback is more of a rallying cry for how we win as an organisation. Now, so if I'm open to receiving feedback from my teammates and from people in the organization, chances are I'll improve my game over time. So that's really really important. But the flip side of that coin is, if I'm sharing my feedback with the people around me, they get the opportunity to lift their game as well. And so it's that dynamic of being able to give and receive feedback with love and for us all to improve that helps us win as a business.
Speaker 1:And so that story that you shared and I remember that call because I was the one talking to the customer and he said to me this product was great, do you integrate with deskcom, which at the time I think we only had one or two integrations.
Speaker 1:I knew that we certainly didn't have deskcom, but I repeated the question out loud because John was sitting opposite me on the same desk and I knew that if I asked the question out loud do we integrate with deskcom? That John would jump onto the API docs for deskcom and find out whether or not we could integrate with it, which is exactly what he did, and he gave me a thumbs up within seconds, which was enough to me to promise to the customer that, yes, that integration did exist and if he wanted to sign up and give me the credit card number, that I'd take it and ship him the instructions that afternoon, which is exactly what we did. John built that integration in a couple of hours and we won the customer, and that story has occurred again and again and again in different forms throughout the life cycle of the business, which is just that idea of feedback in action and being able to be, like you say, responsive.
Speaker 2:And so you got started, and you were still in the garage and you started iterating with early customer feedback, et cetera, and starting to build the product out, did you?
Speaker 1:bootstrap. The garage is generous. Remember this is a garden shed, a garden shed. This is a garden shed, a garden shed.
Speaker 2:This is a garden shed. Did it still have implements garden implements in it, or had you cleaned it out it?
Speaker 1:had more than that. It wasn't clean at all, it did not smell great. It had an outhouse attached to it as well. This is not salubrious.
Speaker 2:We are selling the software to CMOs in the US with an orchestra of lawnmowers and barking dogs in the background. It's outstanding. And so did you. I mean, it sounds like you were bootstrapping. Did you bootstrap for long before you started taking outside capital?
Speaker 1:Not long. About two or three months was about as much as we could sustain ourselves. So we both had young children and Auckland mortgages and no money in the bank. So, more through circumstance, we had to go and raise some money to keep ourselves alive. But also because we recognized that this was a global market opportunity and if we were right on that, it wouldn't be long before the big well-resourced, well-funded competitors saw it also and chased after us, which was the case. So to swing the bat hard on it and really give it a good nudge, we definitely needed to raise outside venture money for us and that was definitely a good move for us.
Speaker 2:And where did you go for that? What was that process? Was that New Zealand investors? Was it angel groups, VCs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so at the time, this was 2014, and at that time there was no VC ecosystem in New Zealand as there is, you know. Of course, that's a vastly different story today and there are many, many more options. So for us at that time, we were out there almost literally just door knocking, you know, folks that we thought might have some spare cash, and we ended up going to the two main angel networks in New Zealand at that time, both in Auckland and Wellington, to raise an embarrassingly small first seed round. You know which got us going?
Speaker 2:And then did you sort of how long did that last year before you then needed further cash? Or did you hit profitability and keep growing out of profit from then on? No, no, no sort of. How long did that last year before you then needed further cash, or did you hit profitability and keep growing out of profit?
Speaker 1:from then on no, no, no. We realised within two or three months that we hadn't raised anywhere near enough. So I think about five or six months later we were out there raising more again and we went through five funding rounds to get to the point that we're at at the moment.
Speaker 2:And was it a? You know it's probably a silly question, but was it a relatively straightforward process for you to raise funding each time, or were you continually rejected? How did that go? Did it feel like that's something you mastered, or was it just continually an uphill battle?
Speaker 1:We definitely got better at it over time and I think the thing that made it feel easier is each time that we were raising we'd made a great deal of progress and we were selling a product that was reasonably unique and differentiated in the market, and it was quite clear that at each round that we raised money that this business was accelerating. So I think that made the fundraising process a lot easier. We were fortunate right from the start to find early believers in the investor community that became cheerleaders for not just the business and the product but also us as founders as well and I think you know gained a lot of early credibility because of you know the names and track records of those that we're attracted to to support the business in those very early funding rounds.
Speaker 2:And you've got through. You've grown, I guess, customer numbers and headcount throughout the process. At what point did you decide that you wanted to move beyond NZ as a market? Was that right at the outset that you were thinking global from day one, we're going to be off to the US, et cetera, as fast as we can, or was that something that happened a few years down the line?
Speaker 1:No, absolutely. I mean pre-launch. We knew that if we were going to be a chance of building a global business, that we had to win in the US market. That was critical, and so, from day one, we were buying Google ads in the US market. That was critical, and so, from day one, we were buying Google ads in the US and having conversations with American companies, and I think that was a huge part of our success making sure that we were global from day one.
Speaker 1:And how quickly did you jump on a plane and head to the US or consider being based in the US, I think we visited the US for at least the first 18 or 24 months, so we achieved a great deal from New Zealand, more than we'd expected to, to be honest, and I think that whilst it was critical for us to move over the US and create an American base and team, I think it's less important to do that nowadays and there is much that can be achieved from a New Zealand beachhead.
Speaker 2:So you made the decision, though, that you personally would be the one that would head up conquering the US by moving to the US. How long ago did you move yourself and your family up there?
Speaker 1:Just over six years. So at the start of 2018 we moved over and we established our marketing, sales, customer success, also finance and HR teams all here in the US, and then we kept our design, product and engineering teams in New Zealand, and so we essentially had a co-founder in each of those geographies leading those functions and sort of maintaining a consistent culture across both places and sort of maintaining a consistent culture across both places.
Speaker 2:How did that go with talking to your wife to say, okay, I think we should move to the US and we're going to have to move the family over there? Was that an easy conversation to? Have or was that one that was a little bit more challenging? Definitely challenging.
Speaker 1:Used the word insane earlier on, and I subscribe to the view that if you are going to start a new venture, co-found a startup like this, that there is a minimum level of insanity that's required. Thankfully, my wife is quite familiar with my particular level of insanity, and so when I shared that this is something that I wanted to do and that I believed in and I thought was going to be important for the business but also exciting for our family, you know, I don't think it was a huge shock, because this is part of my makeup and she did marry me, so a little bit of it goes with the territory.
Speaker 2:So essentially she was signing it off right from the beginning. Right From the time she married you, she was saying look, aaron, wherever you go, I'm going with you. It's all going to be good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's part of our commitment to each other. Definitely yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so you set up in the northwestern states, so up near Portland. There Culture shock. Or did you find it hard to settle in and build a life there? Or was that quite straightforward?
Speaker 1:It was quite straightforward. One of the criteria that we applied to choosing Portland as a location is, you know, you mentioned culture. We wanted to make sure that we were able to bring the culture that we'd created in New Zealand to Portland and have that feel natural and authentic. And in Portland for me this is probably the most New Zealand-like city of all those that I've visited in the US it bears a lot of similarities, both geographically You've got rivers and mountains and lakes and it's very, very green, just like New Zealand is. It's also a particularly nice place. Nobody beeps their horns on the roads. If you're standing on the side of the road and you look like you might want to cross sometime today, the cars will literally stop in the middle of the road and wait for you to walk across. So it's an extremely nice place to live, with nice people that are nice to each other, and, of course, we built a brand around being nice. So it was a very soft landing for us here and we've really enjoyed that.
Speaker 2:And we've really enjoyed that. And I guess one of the key things that I always admire about you is your connection to your ancestry and a year or two back won the Maori Business Leader of the Year at the High Tech Awards here in New Zealand, aotearoa, and I've always been really impressed by how you've embraced that culture, always been really impressed by how you've embraced that culture. How has that impacted the journey? For Ask Nicely, particularly given that you don't live in New Zealand, you know you're not connected as readily and as easily to that Māori ancestry which I know is just so important to you. Does it make it harder being in the US in that regard, or is that something that you're able to bring to the business in the US?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess on a personal level, yeah, it definitely has made it harder, being detached from where I'm from and from my heritage and my culture, which I think also it provides all the more reason just to really lean into it. You can see on the call that I've got a fairly hefty whanau stone hanging around my neck which is visible to everybody that I come into contact with here in the US and it's common for people to come up to me and say, hey, are you from New Zealand? And I get to be able to share that conversation and share that story around who I am. And it's one of the things that has been a little bit surprising to me actually is how highly revered and valued the New Zealand brand and Maori culture is here in the US. There's quite a high degree of awareness but also reverence for it, which I've really enjoyed.
Speaker 1:The other part is we're very proud to be a New Zealand business. It's one of our customers recognize that and value it also, which grants us permission to be very explicit around our Kiwi roots and embedding that into our rituals within the company. So we have weekly all-hands calls and monthly town halls which include folks based here in the US, in New Zealand and in Amsterdam. They're all open to our Māori. We have a patoki on our website and Māori values weaved into the rituals that we have in the organisation and I think for many of the non-Māori in the business they see that as being something quite special that they're proud of. So I think that's been valuable for us in building a true sense of unique identity as a business and as a team.
Speaker 2:Hey, just let me pause you there for a second and tell you about some help that's available for startup founders. One of the biggest reasons startups fail is that the founders give up. They just burn out through struggling with aligning all of their people to what it is they're trying to do. It doesn't have to be like that, though. Jess Dahlberg is an expert at startup performance and she works to align your team to the performance you need so that you, as founders, can get on and scale with confidence. Simply head to jessdahlbergcom backslash scaleup. That's jessdahlberg D-A-H-L-B-E-R-Gcom backslash scaleup. Use promo code scaleup2024 and start removing those headaches.
Speaker 2:Let's get back to the show. Well, well done to you, because I think for younger Maori people of Maori descent, there is a sense that you can't be it unless you can see it, and so they can look at you and they can see that you came from little old Long Bay College. You're a Māori boy who is now in the US and doing some really cool things, and so that will, without you necessarily even being aware of it, will provide massive inspiration to younger people, and particularly founders, who are looking at taking on the world and doing something and carving out their space. So I think it's a massive testament to you and the way that you lead in that regard and the way that you bring Māori tanga into the culture of what you are doing at Ask Nicely.
Speaker 2:So you've been at this now for a decade, right? So this is a long haul to do any kind of startup. What's been the hardest thing that you've had to endure building us nicely? What's something that maybe you just if you'd known 10 years ago, you'd be like, oh God, I don't necessarily want to have to deal with that.
Speaker 1:There's a ton of things. I could quite easily pick one.
Speaker 1:I think one of the interesting things that I've wrestled with and continue to wrestle with is one of the things that I think really helped us be successful in the early days, actually turned on us and became our kryptonite in the earlier days.
Speaker 1:As a co-founder especially when you think about two guys in a garden shed you need to be multidisciplined and able to lean into any number of areas of the business where they have problems that need attention. So in one day, I'm a sales guy, I'm a marketing guy, I'm a finance guy and you really need to care for all the details in an organization. I think there comes a point where, as the organization benefits from that and builds a level of scale and then requires experts in their fields to come and own those areas of the business, that code needs to flip. You need to turn from a micromanager into a macromanager and if you don't make that switch, you can become a bottleneck or a handbrake on the organization because you're so used to playing in all of the corners of the business. That's something that I've personally struggled with. It's hard to see that moment coming and prepare for it, but in the rear view mirror I can see that that's something that I wish I was a better macro manager earlier in the Ask Nicely story.
Speaker 2:And so now you are, in addition to being the co-founder with John, you're the chief strategy officer. Is that part of what you're talking about there? Is that part of why you've chosen that strategy role, so that you're not necessarily the CEO? You're in a different role? Is it because you're looking at your strengths, et cetera?
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is the point. Now, being over nine years into the journey, I can look back and say, okay, where are the moments where I was the most impactful and where I was the most energized and where I enjoyed it most? And those, for me, are the moments where you're out there designing and building the next thing, the next phase, and I think my wife would certainly prefer this wasn't the case, but I realized today that I do suffer from the startup gene. I'm most happiest when I'm designing and building something new and I think, in a strategy role, that's the nature of that role is being able to sort of look around corners and design for the next phase of the company, and that's what I enjoy.
Speaker 2:And I want to jump back into the US experience a little bit. There'll be a bunch of Kiwi and Aussie founders, maybe even some in the UK, but particularly those in New Zealand and Australia, who are thinking about the US. Have you got any advice for them about things they should consider about being based there? I know you were saying you can do a lot remotely, but once you do start to enter the market, what are some things they should be thinking about, things that are different? I mean, there's a lot that's different, right, but what would you be advising a founder to be considering if they are thinking of putting boots on the ground in the US?
Speaker 1:Well, I think the most practical advice that I can give is get really close to people that have done it. You know, as a business that's built on feedback, one of the things that we struggled with because of the time that we were launching was finding other significance in the US. Now, much of the success that we did have was in talking to folks that had been there. And you've got to be a little bit careful because I think sometimes the advice that others might give you is a little bit closer to nostalgia, because that answer was right for them at that time and that's why I'm a little loathe to, you know, make any broad statements around what will or won't work. But what you can do is share the experiences that you had and, going back to the snakes and ladders analogy in particular, point out these are snakes that we slid down, that slowed our progress, that held us back. You can avoid those snakes.
Speaker 2:And what would you say are some of the key things, using the snakes and ladders analogy the many that didn't hear you speak and present the snakes and letters overview, what are some of those things that you would say to founders more broadly, not just the US, but things that they should consider as part of their journey, or snakes and letters that you experienced?
Speaker 1:there's a series of choices or decisions that have a series of consequences that come beyond it.
Speaker 1:I think a very practical one that was true for us is our product had a number of aspects to it that were reasonably innovative and not obvious to customers, needed to be explained by salespeople.
Speaker 1:Now, if we're selling, and then the implementation of that product had to be supported by people in our customer success team, and so if we're selling into the US to folks that are based over here in a US time zone, they need to be talking to salespeople that are in their time zone and customer success people in their time zone, because that's required essentially to the design of the product. And it was because of those product design issues that required us to essentially build sales teams in the US, build success teams in the US, then, of course, build leadership in the US and, in turn, created a challenge for us in maintaining a culture both in New Zealand and the US. In New Zealand and the US. I think that we've had a bunch of success. I think that it could have been easier and simpler had we built a product that didn't require as much human support as ours did at that stage.
Speaker 2:That's super interesting. I want to turn the attention a little bit away from Ask Nicely and really sort of drill into you. So one of the things I know about you is that you value staying fit and in fact, when I spent time with you in the US, you seem to be always off to the gym, and that would inspire me to get my butt off sitting down and go to the gym as well. Has being fit? That's probably a dumb question, right. Has being fit? That's probably a dumb question, right, but how has being fit impacted how you do startups and dealing with the inevitable challenges that come along as a startup founder?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know if this is true for others, but there's a quite obvious therapeutic benefit and need for me and being able to go to the gym. One of the things that I do is I go to these boxing classes and we're sitting there hitting a heavy bag. When you're spending your day on phone calls and Zoom calls and emails and meetings, that's a cerebral activity. It's largely sedentary. There's not a lot of movement. Getting into the gym, whether it's throwing some weight around or getting in behind a bag or going for a run this is the antidote to that office face interaction, which to me is just incredibly important, and loosening up the mind and being able to switch out of that office face interaction.
Speaker 2:Do you find you get your best insights and your almost the best ideas when you are punching the bag or you're in the gym or you're working out, or do you just get out of your head in the gym or you're working out, or do you just get out of your head in those times and you're actually not thinking about what you do from a work point of view?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for me it's about being out of your head and also just recognising and reminding yourself. You know, often indirectly, that you're more than just a startup founder. I think there is a risk for us in these roles that we form our own personal identity so tightly around the business that we live, sleep, eat and breathe every day, and I think that there's an injustice that we do to the people around us our family, our friends and ourselves when you define yourself that narrowly, it's important to switch out of that context and shock the body into being something else, even if it is for half an hour, an hour on that day.
Speaker 2:I'm pleased you raised that, because actually, that sense of identity that we often establish, we connect it to the brand of the business we're building. And I actually spoke about that as I was a guest on a podcast and I spoke about that quite openly, about how I struggled with that in a previous startup and as the startup grew and became very large and successful, I attached my identity. But then the business had a huge challenge and nearly blew up, and that almost blew up my identity. So it was a great learning, but why not to do that? Yes, you are a startup founder. Yes, you are the co-founder of Ask, nicely, but you are also Aaron Ward, father, husband, boxer, brother. You've got all these other identities that you have. So I'm super stoked that you mentioned that.
Speaker 2:Now, one of the things about you is you're quite a humble guy, so I will imagine when I ask you this question, you're probably going to bat it away. But I like to ask this question of everybody and what do you think your superpower is? Is it that early product ideation piece that you talked about? You're happiest when you're building something new. You love that early stage of the startup or is it something else? Where is your zone of genius to use?
Speaker 1:that phrase. Well, I think genius is overstating it. I think I go back to that idea that there's a minimum level of insanity required. So I don't think you want to over-credit people too much there, and I think it's important also to recognise that if we do find some success, there's a lot of luck that happens along the way as well, a lot of serendipity, a lot of intersection, mentioning that the early supporters of us and I said it was so critical in getting us started. So, yeah, I think it's dangerous to over-credit an individual in any way here, but it's true that for me that I am most energized when I'm out there proving a point around something new that most people disagree with.
Speaker 1:One of my favorite quotes is the Han Solo one. You know, never tell me the odds. You know, if you knew the odds of success on starting a startup, you wouldn't do it. There's a level of craziness required, but I'm attracted to it. I like those odds. I think that's how we discover the new, that's how we evolve as a species. When we're out there, you know, trying to prove a new formula, a new theory.
Speaker 2:So that's what I like is there something that you strongly believe in that you know? Very few people do you know? You're saying you're inspired by that when there's an aspect of things you believe in quite strongly and that you're going to prove to others that this is true, this is right, whether it's a controversial belief or something you strongly hold.
Speaker 1:I'm just attracted to controversy in general. Again, there's a definition I quite like, which is controversy is the clash of conventional wisdom and common sense. I suffer, hopefully, from a healthy level of discontent for the status quo. I think there are things out there that there are plenty of things that can be and should be improved, and we need founders that are prepared to get out there and swing the bat and miss regularly if we're going to advance ourselves.
Speaker 2:That's so true. There's a great quote from I think it was George Bernard Shaw, and he has a quote that probably needs a little bit of updating to bring it into the 21st century, but it's something along the lines of all progress relies on the unreasonable man. Obviously we would say man or woman, human, the unreasonable human, somebody who doesn't necessarily ascribe to the status quo, so by definition they're actually being unreasonable. They can see something that maybe others can't see and the progress true progress, real progress it always comes from the outside. It always comes from the fringes. It's very rarely tied in being reasonable. I always think that's a cool quote. Finally, in terms of how you get inspired, is there something that you do that you listen to, whether it's a podcast or you read, listen to music to get inspiration for the journey of being a startup founder?
Speaker 1:to get inspiration for the journey of being a startup founder. Well, I do enjoy reading the stories of people that are out there doing building audacious businesses that challenge the status quo. Absolutely I agree with the point around unreasonableness. So the book that I've most recently read that I really enjoyed, by the way, is Unreasonable Hospitality. I recommend that to anyone. Put that on the list.
Speaker 2:You're the second person in about three or four days to recommend that, and I guess the general concept is about customer service and going above and beyond what people would expect, regardless of the type of business, just to completely literally be unreasonable in how you are serving people. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's raising the standard, breaking the previous record, proving to yourself and to others that we can do better than what we did before. That's what I took out of that book and, yeah, there's a lot to be inspired by there.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic, aaron. You are such an inspiring guy and, as I say, I think there are a lot to be inspired by there. That's fantastic, aaron. You are such an inspiring guy and, as I say, I think there are a lot of people that have followed your journey and continue to follow your journey, even though you're up in the US, and a lot of Kiwi founders, particularly, that are following you. I will ensure that there's ways for people to connect with you on LinkedIn and also through Ask. Nicely. I'll put those into the show notes. I on LinkedIn and also through Ask. Nicely. I'll put those into the show notes. I just want to say thank you for the time that you've given today. You are an inspiration, so keep being you and keep leading in the authentic way that you do. So thank you.
Speaker 1:I've enjoyed it. I agree with what you said earlier you can't be what you can't see, and if more people are going to see the opportunities that are on offer, we need to get better at telling the stories. So thank you for what you're doing and helping people like me tell the stories of what we've been involved in.
Speaker 2:Well said, it's been a genuine pleasure, so thank you.