Greg Sheehans Podcast
The crazy nature of early stage startups (the uncertainty, the doubters, the rejection) can be similar to the forces felt by those who at some point in their lives felt the need to make seismic shifts in their personal worlds.
My aim as your host is to bring the raw stories of startup failure and fuckup, alongside the inspirational messages of encouragement, tips and suggestions.
Alongside the business chats we will also hear stories from people living interesting and inspirational lives.
The podcast is recorded alongside the beautiful ocean beach of Mount Maunganui, New Zealand, but our guests and their experiences will be from around the world.
Thanks for your support of the show.
Greg Sheehan
Greg Sheehans Podcast
Ep 42: Andy Blair: From Small Town NZ to Running the Worlds Geothermal Industry
Andrea Blair (or Andy to her mates), a powerhouse in sustainable development and geothermal energy, joins us for a riveting discussion that promises to leave you inspired and informed. Recognised by Forbes as one of the five female founders championing a sustainable future, Andy's story is one of resilience, adaptability, and relentless drive. From her roots in Taupō in New Zealand to her transformative roles as past president of the International Geothermal Association and a board member of Global Woman, Andy opens up about the experiences and values that have shaped her remarkable career. Andy is now the CoFounder of Upflow.
Journey with us as Andy recounts her path from a curious science enthusiast to a prominent figure in the geothermal industry. Discover how her early career in forestry, followed by a pivot to tourism and a stint as the CEO of a skydiving operation, showcased her ability to thrive in male-dominated sectors. She candidly discusses challenges like imposter syndrome and the grit required to push through, exemplified by her training for the gruelling Coast to Coast race in New Zealand. Andy’s journey is a testament to the power of hard work and perseverance.
We also explore the immense potential of geothermal energy and its ethical appeal. Andy shares her insights on embracing indigenous knowledge, the hurdles of securing investment for climate tech, and the necessity of courageous leadership to promote gender equality and sustainable development. This episode is packed with visionary ideas and personal anecdotes that highlight the interconnectedness of global impact and personal values. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation that underscores the importance of authenticity and the moral responsibility to lead by example.
You can connect with Andy on LinkedIn and check out Upflow.
I'm not scared of being wrong and I love to be challenged, and so when I stand up and be me, I'm being me and I'm okay with that, and so I don't feel like an imposter at being me.
Speaker 2:My guest today is Andrea Blair, or known to everybody as Andy. Forbes magazine actually awarded you the title of one of the five female founders leading the charge for a sustainable future. You're a board member of Global Woman, and I'm not actually including all of them. There's more, but we'd be here all day.
Speaker 1:You know, my dad always said I don't care if you're the prime minister or if you're pumping gas at a petrol station, but you have to work hard and do the best you can and wherever you are.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan. Welcome to my podcast, where you will hear from a range of guests, including those from the startup world and those that have had incredibly interesting lives and some stories to tell. I would really appreciate it if you could hit the follow button and share this amongst your friends, but, as you know, time is limited, so let's get on with it and hear from our next guest. I want to tell you a little bit about desk work. Desk work is your offshoring option. If you want to save around 50% of your total headcount cost for equivalent talent across accounting, marketing, sales, your operations or your admin, then check out Deskwork. Honestly, if I was looking to start an accounting firm again, it would be a no-brainer for me to use Deskwork. I've used offshoring teams before in the past. I got past my skepticism on being able to do it and it was so phenomenally successful. Go have a look at desk-workco backslash, greg, and book yourself a free discovery call to learn more about it. Better still, mention my name and get yourself some discounts. Check it out.
Speaker 2:Now back to the show. My guest today is Andrea Blair, or known to everybody in. Well, actually I was going to say New Zealand, but in the broader global world as Andy. Andy, welcome. It's a real honour actually to be able to speak to you today.
Speaker 1:Kia ora Greg. Honour to be here too. I enjoy a microphone and a chat, so I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, listen, I almost don't know where to start. Today, I was looking at your accolades and I'm going to read through some of them, just as we kind of get into this and I'm not actually including all of them, there's more, but we'd be here all day because you have done so many things. So and these are not in necessarily any order as well so, forbes magazine actually awarded you the title of one of the five female founders leading the charge for a sustainable future. You are an immediate past president of the International Geothermal Association. So that's the International Geothermal Association. You're a board member of Global Woman.
Speaker 2:You are a winner of the we Empower UN Sustainable Development Goals Challenge and just recently and it's very, very cool to see you were awarded an Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit in this latest King's Birthday Honours list. Congrats on that, too. Unbelievable. How did you get to be here, though? Tell us a little bit about your early origin story and where you grew up. Did you always imagine that you would be in a place like you are now? What did growing up look like for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for the list. And it's always interesting when you hear the list because you're like that's really impressive, wonder who that person is. And I think the commonality between all of those things is that I'm an agitator and I am going on to the Global Woman Board. I asked them what could I bring, because they're super impressive woman at the table there you, teresa Getting and and other other leaders which I respect hugely and they said because we need an agitator. And I think that talks to some of those, that sort of recognition, which is also very strange to me.
Speaker 1:I think you just try and operate in the world and push at places where you feel strongly and these things come along the wayside. I think my backstory. Where did I come from? So, taupo, nui Atea. This is where I am today and where I grew up. I went to Tauhara College, proud Tauhara College, small school in Taupo.
Speaker 1:I think I was very much influenced by heavy engagement with Te Ao Māori during my experience in growing up, which has actually had a huge impression on the way that I look at the world and how I participate in the world.
Speaker 1:Our Māori teacher at Te Ao Hara College was Te Ururoa Flavell, who was the head of the Māori Party for a period of time to college was Te Ururoa Flavell, who was the head of the Māori Party for a period of time, and so that's had a real influence on me and how I operate. I've always been a nerd, so I'm a deep geek. I'm really curious about the world. I want to know stuff. I'm the annoying person who's why does that work, how does that work? Person and want to challenge things. So I started my career in my science foray doing a Bachelor of Science in Technology focused on forestry science big sort of sector around where I grew up and worked in that space and then, through working in such a strong, male-dominated industry like forestry, which I passionately love, I felt really different from what the structure and how things are supposed to be, and that's why I actually used the name Andy. Which is quite interesting is that at the time back then I'm really old, so it's some time ago.
Speaker 2:You're not that old.
Speaker 1:People, would You're not?
Speaker 2:that old.
Speaker 1:Just feels that way sometimes, Greg Tell me about it that I wasn't getting responses to my emails, and so I changed my name to Andy, which is with a Y on purpose, and that changed the sort of interaction I started having when people didn't see me, and so that's when I adopted Andy, and in that forestry science place I'm a deep geek, I love all that sort of stuff I then was made redundant in the forestry industry, a role that I was doing, and I thought you know, I'm just going to walk out of this room and I'm going to walk into the tea room and look in the paper back when you used to look in the paper for jobs, and I'm going to look in there and see what I think is cool. And I'm going to look in there and see what I think is cool and I'm just going to pick something. And there were two roles that I thought that I could do and I would love to do, which was the operations manager of a super yacht building company, because I was very good at operational stuff, and then the 2IC for Kiwi Experience, which is the tourism product here in New Zealand, and I managed to get the Kiwi Experience role, and so I was in Kiwi Experience for a number of years five years, I think it was and was the acting general manager at the end of that time for Kiwi Experience and I learned a lot about leadership. So everyone sort of thinks well, you're a geek and you went to tourism. How is that? You know, that must have been strange, and I would say I learnt big lessons about leadership in my role at Kiwi Experience.
Speaker 1:They had about 75 staff at the time and quite a variety of people. But also if you sit at the front of a bus and you've got 50 people sitting behind you from all different nations, driver guides, compelling people to walk through rivers to do something, that's leadership and how do you manage those situations. So I feel like that was a real formative leadership space for me. Then I became the CEO of a skydiving operation, which is a huge story. Became the CEO of a skydiving operation which is a huge story and as you can see, I'm not boundaried by different industries and did that role for a period of time. And then it didn't work out for me in that space and I took a year off and I trained full time to do the coast to coast.
Speaker 2:I saw that. It's just super impressive.
Speaker 1:I know and you know. The funny part, greg, is, when I told people I was doing that, not one of my friends said, wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 2:They were all oh, yeah, okay and give people some color for what the coast to coast is, because there are there are a number of people who might be listening to this, who are not in New Zealand and Aotearoa, who may not know what the coast-to-coast is. Give them a sense of what it looks like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's a massive physical challenge. At the time it was one of the pro enduro sport multi-sport events in the world. So all the professional athletes in multi-sport events would come and do this race. The coast-to-coast, which is the west coast of the South Island of New Zealand to the east coast of the South Island of New Zealand and that's about a 273 kilometre event which has like 60 kilometres of whitewater rafting, had a 50 kilometre mountain run over the Alps. You know it's like ridiculous, it was, it's ridiculous and so it's a massive physical challenge which, you know, I didn't say I'll do a half marathon, I said I'll do the coast to coast.
Speaker 2:I'll just run across the South Island mountains and nuts.
Speaker 1:And that sort of feeds into my. I could always do what I wanted to do and I just had to work hard. And so I did a year off and I did the, trained really hard, I lost lots of weight, worked really hard and did the event. I did not finish the event, which is a god damn. I have to go back and do it now again.
Speaker 2:How far away were you finishing?
Speaker 1:I was like I got severe cramp on the mountain run and got pulled off within a couple of kilometres of the finish. So hurt like I got severe cramp on the mountain run and got pulled off within a couple of kilometers of the finish. So hurtful, hurtful in a deep place. That failure of that to me was a really big mental thing I had to work through as well. But, more importantly, I'm so gutted because I have to go back and do it again now because that's the hurtful thing, right. So at the end of that year and after the event, I started my journey into the geothermal industry.
Speaker 1:So there was a role that came up at GNS science, which is a government owned research organization in New Zealand based on earth sciences, and a role came up in there to be the business development manager to look after geothermal hydrogeology and microbiology. And I thought, cool. I mean, I love science, I'm a deep geek, but I don't want to put a lab coat on and do the hard work. I just want to talk about the cool stuff, I want to enable it and see it in the world.
Speaker 1:So that was really my first step into geothermal and where I really found the people and the place I wanted to be in, and I was in GNS at GNS for about 10 years and met the most amazing people industrial gap in the world between these amazing scientists and brains that are solving really cool things and actually operating out in the world so commercial operators and businesses thinking there's some cool pieces here that need to join together and operate in the real world, and there was nothing in the middle that bridged between those two spaces. And that's where me and my business partner, co-founder Paul, found the gap for Upflow, and so I traveled around the world. I was setting up contracts in all different places around the world. I could see that this was a global issue in the geothermal sector and that was the premise we built Upflow on, which is the bridge between deep science and commercial reality we started that seven years ago.
Speaker 2:So that's my journey to. Yeah. I mean, there's just so many different threads I sort of am keen to pull on there. But if you look at your entry into GNS and then that broader geothermal world, was that just a massive kind of almost. I don't want to use the word awakening, but I'll use the word awakening like a sense of what possibilities existed out there globally for somebody like you and with your brain for me, being a part of that community was really transformative, because I got to see how this space and this proposition to the world actually really did transform communities.
Speaker 1:So going out into Central America and seeing how these projects could offer not just energy but solutions for some of the societal environmental issues that are going on as well, so as an offering and competitive against, you know, wind and fossil fuels and solar and other things, it just could offer so much and you could see transformation in ways that are more than just dollars out in the world. I also found a community of people that I really enjoy being around and being part of. Geothermal is a place where the same sort of skills you can work in oil and gas and you know that industry and get paid lots of money. So people are choosing geothermal because there's more than money. There's this ethical thing we all feel about doing good for the planet. So there's this connection we have globally.
Speaker 1:But there are some really complex factors to it that mean you have to be really smart and you have to be in a team of smart people to solve, and so it's a really smart open. Have to be in a team of smart people to solve, and so it's a really smart, open community that's doing good for the world, but also it's a really small community, so there's only a few hundred thousand people globally that really are directly employed by geothermal. So it's a place where you can have impact. So someone from Tohara College in Taupo in New Zealand could become the president of the world geothermal base in the Netherlands. Is you know, that's not an opportunity that's afforded to you in bigger spaces. So it's a place where you can have impact.
Speaker 2:It's actually a phenomenal area and so give us some sense of shape, of geothermal sort of globally Like have we got any idea what sort of percentage it makes up of total energy production?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a very small. It's very, very small. It's in the niche category. We are in the small, few percent sort of space. However, it's really a strong offering with respect to it's not influenced by atmospheric conditions, so you don't need wind, you don't need to blow, you don't need a lot of sun, you don't need those sorts of things. But it offers baseload energy, which means that it's always on, it doesn't turn off, and it's those additional things that are important, so it can offer you energy and electricity.
Speaker 1:But also a geothermal is basically rain falling down onto the ground, percolating into the ground and going across the hot sort of you know, the deeper you go, the hotter it gets right Going across that hot sort of space and then coming to the surface. And as those fluids come to the surface, they bring with it the minerals and the gases that are underground up to the top, and so what comes out the top is not water, it's like a brine, a brine sort of thing. Yeah, so inside of that brine there are gases which are useful to us, there are minerals, such as lithium and all the critical minerals that we need for our solar panels and our electric cars and all of those things, and so there's a lot of work going on on how to use geothermal in a broader sense. So mining that fluid for minerals means that maybe we don't need to have open cast mines for lithium and their lithium projects globally, and that is a by-product of electricity. So it's not a that or this, it's a electricity and minerals and other things. It's a cool prospect.
Speaker 2:It's a very cool prospect and you know, I'm imagining not all parts of the world are sort of naturally endowed with the ability to have geothermal. Is it places like new zealand, where we've got, you know, relatively sort of I don't know, no scientists, certainly no geothermal scientists We've got mud pools and sort of a lot of volcanic activity here, is it, you know, only in those areas where you can have geothermal or just about anywhere, as long as you've got rainfall and then water bubbling back up through the aquifers and things?
Speaker 1:Traditionally we've always been in those really hot spaces. So if we think about the Ring of fire and other tectonic plate boundaries like the African rift and other locations globally, we think of geothermal because we think of hot springs and geysers and all those sorts of things, the natural expressions of geothermal. However, everywhere in the world you go down, it'll get hotter and it's actually about the cost to access that heat. That is the barrier and how to access that heat. That is the barrier and how to utilize that heat energy. So there are a lot of technologies now focused on going deeper, not requiring so much fluid being in those other places.
Speaker 1:So geothermal everywhere is a play that's being worked on in the industry and what that means is lower temperature places, like in New Zealand, we think that topo volcanic zone, from like Ruapehu all the way out to White Island. There's a space where the geology allows for those really high temperature fields, which means it doesn't cost much to get to so we can produce electricity. But there are lower temperature areas now that we're investigating where we can produce electricity. But there are lower temperature areas now that we're investigating where we can utilize that energy directly for bathing and greenhouses and all sorts of other things. So the traditional high temperature locations on those tectonic settings, yes, that's what you see now, but it's broadening out into those other spaces with new technologies and utilization Also. Another factor to it is geothermal environments themselves, so warm ground creates. So we've got a project where we're using microbes that come from these geothermal environments and they're called extremophiles, like extreme like nowadays X-philes we call it.
Speaker 1:Why those are important those extreme environments where it's high temperature or high toxicity or weird chemistry. Acidity means that microorganisms that live there have to have really weird adaptions in their bodies to allow them to live in these non-livable spaces and those adaptions are really good for biotech applications. So one of the gold standard we call it the gold standard x files is a bug from the yellowstone national park called thermos aquaticus.
Speaker 2:I'm going to try and not get too sciencey sounds like something out of transformers, but it sounds super exciting thermos aquaticus I know it's a super cool one and you actually have heard of it, you've actually probably used it.
Speaker 1:So thermos aquaticus in I know it's a super cool one and you actually have heard of it, you've actually probably used it. So thermus aquaticus, like 60 years ago, was used. The enzyme from this little microorganism from this geothermal location was used to help with DNA replication. So remember back in the day when you watch crime scene movies and they're like we've got the DNA and let's do the map and you're the electrophoresis gel and you see the lines all match up and you're like he was the murderer. So the ability to make that technology work came from this enzyme in Yellowstone, because to pull DNA apart you have to have really high temperature, so 70 plus degrees, and no organism living in the normal living environment could have an enzyme that could survive it, but Thermus aquaticus could. So they pulled it out, put it in and they used it for PCR technology, which is in that one and that's also the testing recently for COVID used PCR technology.
Speaker 1:So it's from a geothermal microorganism that we used for that biotech. Our project that we've got just got some funding for is we're taking co2 and methane waste gases and we're feeding them to the. A couple of microorganisms we've found in a geothermal hot spring in new zealand that eat those gases and they make single cell protein. So we're making food from waste gases using these microbes. So super cool technology that's offering us solutions for some of those really big global problems, and we can find them in these geothermal environments.
Speaker 2:And you know this is because this is actually, as you said earlier, this is a relatively small percentage of global energy generation, but you've actually got this ability to essentially do mining without mining, without extraction. Well, you might be looking at extraction, but you don't have to sort of open up a giant you know hole in the ground to do it. You don't have to destroy the environment to do it and you can get access to these sorts of elements that it feels like you might be on the cusp, as an industry, of something really quite profound, because it's heavily sustainable and yet it's giving us access to these new forms of science that we're so desperately looking for and growing the energy base which we all need as a planet as well.
Speaker 1:that feels pretty exciting, and I don't know if there's, you know, many other areas of energy that would say they've got that confluence of those sorts of factors that's why I love it, because it feels like a place of solutions yeah, and and you're right, those critical minerals and if you think about geopolitical security, yeah, and of supply. So it doesn't mean that in new zealand we have to have the biggest export of lithium or whatever. But to know that in our country we can get our own lithium from not turning our soil over, that means that in any future trade discussions you know we're safe from that sort of risk associated with that. And so it's a really interesting supermarket to shop for solutions in geothermal.
Speaker 2:And it's also this really amazing confluence of, you know, science, the community, business and sustainability all in one place. It must give you opportunities, but it must also present some real challenges at times as well, some super challenges, and I guess that's what Upflow is all about, right, like helping people navigate a lot of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:It's absolutely that. And when I spoke earlier about having a Te Ao Māori lens across the world, you think about. These sort of solutions for the world have to be broader than economic. We need to seek out those environmental and social and cultural solutions. And when we think about indigenous world, how they operate in the world, this is the lens they use. And so when I go to COP and I hear leaders stand up and say we should be thinking about business models that consider the environment and I think it's already there and so when we think about geothermal and you know we can make electricity, which is really strong financially, then we can also heat all our homes and our village. We can also provide employment through these really significantly important places. It just offers a lot.
Speaker 1:And when you go to places I've been to many places where I've seen this in place, so geothermal often is in these rural locations near mountains or villages and there's tends to be high you know there are real benefits for communities that live amongst geothermal locations. I've seen it, a project I've seen in El Salvador, a place that you think why would I travel to. Like El Salvador sounds really dangerous and you know why would I go there. But when I went there to speak at an event, I went to visit one power station and they had set up a business that took the cooling water some water from the cooling tower of their geothermal electricity power station and they'd set up a business where they'd hired 500 local women only women. Because the leader there thought if you lift women up, they'll take everyone around them with them, so it's about prosperity of local village. They created a cacao and a coffee plantation, commercial plantation on site, using the leftover water from the cooling tower, and have this commercial business, which is sustainable. They then thought okay, so now, if there's a lot of women here and women are the primary caregivers, we should set up, you know, a creche so their kids are safe and they can feel good about coming.
Speaker 1:And then they said then they said well, okay, why don't we support the community by setting up a school? So they have on-site a school called, which is like the window to the world, and every day they have one school from the surrounding villages that come and learn first world robotics. They have a full-size kitchen where they learn about food and nutrition. You know they do recoding and it's about giving them aspirations outside of where they currently are because 90% of the homes are dirt floors. So the sort of enabling that geothermal can do in these sort of communities, you know it's not really well spoken about but it's hugely transformative and you see leadership in places where you don't hear loud leadership visibly, you know in the Western world, and so for me that's a real example. We can hold up and move around the world.
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Speaker 2:Let's get back to the show. Do you see, through your involvement you know, for example, with the International Geothermal Association and even just with you know with Global Woman the possibilities that exist for us to solve our big problems globally, like we've got some massive issues globally. Do you get encouraged by your involvement with groups like these and just the possibilities that you know that present that? We're always on the cusp of learning something new. Maybe that can help solve our problems. Do these groups give you that sense of you know this is possible.
Speaker 1:If you could meet all the amazing women and climate tech people I get to meet, you'd feel very good about where the world's going. So I just think the structures in which we're trying to operate are really hard and the biases that exist make things really difficult, but the source of solutions and the brains and the smarts and the lenses that are there are there. They are there. It's just how do we enable them so being able to look at problems differently, thinking about diversity across those big places and boardrooms. You know the problems that have the heads that have created the problem are not going to solve the problem. So how do we create the space for them to participate? I think that's the key rollover. But what I do know is there are some amazing people ready and trying and they just need some enablement to get them going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. What's been the hardest thing on this journey so far? In whatever roles that you're playing Because you've definitely got a full calendar all the time and you're involved in multiple things what's been the toughest part of this journey to date?
Speaker 1:A couple of things, personally and a professional. There are a couple of things that have been really difficult. First, talk about the in the professional space and trying to make climate tech and solutions real in a place where everyone's screaming for how do we solve this climate thing? We need it now. Hearing all the rhetoric, hearing all the people stand up and saying where is it, and then not having the support to make it real. That's really hard.
Speaker 1:And the problem is around oxygen, and by oxygen I mean money, and people say things like it's really difficult. And it's not difficult, it's leadership. People can make decisions and make change happen, and it's so hard to watch leaders not make those choices. And I don't just mean government, because in all honesty, I think government aren't leaders in change. I think they are sticks and carrots to help change. But leader sits outside of government Leadership and good ideas sit outside of government, and so how do we change outside of government leadership and good ideas outside of government? And so how do we change outside of government leadership to make change hard choices for the future?
Speaker 1:So when I think about money and I say that, it's because the solutions that we're offering with respect to climate and environment and diversity don't fit the norm, because the norm created the space of where we are now, so these solutions are never going to fit that. So when you go to try and find investment and you turn up and these groups say we want to invest, so when you go to try and find investment and you turn up and these groups say we want to invest in diversity, we want to invest in climate. However, what that really means to us who are trying to get that investment is you have to tick all the boxes of every other business you're competing with and you have to demonstrate the burden of achieving all of those climate goals or diversity goals as well. Yeah, so there's no actual change to the system the paradigms yeah and so it's such a massive burden.
Speaker 1:We fund managers and people who lead this we have to re-educate. Every time we talk to them we have to. Then I have to explain everything about geothermal technology and about why it takes so long and why it's capital intensive up front and what that means. Also, the base case is not zero. So people say you have to beat the base case.
Speaker 1:In our world in the energy sector, the base case is against fossil fuels. Yeah, and fossil fuel subsidies are massive, like $7 trillion a year subsidising fossil fuel operations to be profitable and operate. So if we are basing our base case in New Zealand at something like $450 million a year, go to fossil fuel industries to support them, to give us low prices for our fuel and all sorts of other things. Support them to give us low prices for our fuel and all sorts of other things. So when you're doing the base case for a geothermal project versus the norm price, people are paying for things. That's an inflated. It's not zero.
Speaker 1:New Zealand's giving money to that other side of the ledger. And so how do we ask people or show people when this investment that you're making is comparative and also that cost there? How do we allow for the cost of the environment and the true cost of resource use and to society and the burden future burden versus the base case. I think that's a really hard place to talk into because people go, yeah, yeah, yeah sounds good, but can't see it, and so therefore it's hard to get over the line.
Speaker 2:It's like trying to bring any hard change when you're up against the paradigms of the norm and whatever the norm is, whether that's even in medicine or medical research, and you've got peer review which keeps everything in sort of a lockstep. It means that nothing is truly that innovative because it's kind of all done in sync with everybody else, so there's nothing radical that comes in and tests it and challenges it, and I think that's true of any area of innovation. And in fact there's a quote I think I've used this on the podcast before and I think it was George Bernard Shaw and it an old quote but it's that. No, you know, all progress relies on the unreasonable man, and let's just impose woman on that as well. Like it's, all progress relies on you being unreasonable, because by default that's how you get progress, because of everything everybody thinks it's reasonable. It's not that innovative, it's not that. So it's very challenging in an industry like geothermal to break outside of the paradigms Like incredibly hard.
Speaker 1:It's really tough and it's also the same in the gender space, the equality space. It's really hard to push through because you can't ask people just to feel bad about a thing Like because we have society built on these rules and we're asking for your brain to push against those rules and the bias is so subtle, that's an institutionalized, we don't even test it. Yeah. So things like why do we work at 8 30 to 5 pm day? Who said that was okay? That doesn't work for mums or people who are looking after their extended family. Why do we just accept those biases that keep one part of society not participating fully?
Speaker 1:So I think challenging the structure in which you're operating and the biases that exist are all part of change and leadership. I think everybody thinks that you have to be popular to be a leader, but I think leadership means that you need to step through the scary spaces. And lots of people say to me solving gender equality or diversity in our business is really hard. Well, it's not. Actually, it's one single decision of leadership to say, okay, we're only going to hire women this year and people say, oh, that's a reverse diversity or something. And it's actually not. If you look at the Human Rights Act. It says that you have to look at the results, not the process. So if you are continuing to operate as you are and continuing to support the biases that are keeping people out, you are actually already against human rights. Unless you put something in to change the result for people and so you know it's a leadership call you just stand up and say it's hard and I'm doing it, and I'm changing it today, and then take the hits.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's right.
Speaker 1:Who's going to say it's unfair when it's fairness that you're fighting for and, as you say, you know that's right who's going to say it's unfair when it's fairness that you're fighting for?
Speaker 2:and, as you say, you know that's. That's what leadership is. It is about making some really tough calls. I've talked about this often leaders have followers. If you don't have people following, you, you're not, you're not leading. You were starting to touch also on some personal challenges that have been hard. You yeah, yeah, so it's really.
Speaker 1:It is very difficult and I thought this about when, you know, when I received my king's honors list and and to me it's really, it is very difficult and I thought this about when, you know, when I received my King's Honours list and to me it's really difficult because I, my team, is so smart, they are so smart and I couldn't do any of what I do without them and I get held up quite a lot. And I find it quite difficult because, you know, I'm part of a really strong team who I respect and I learn every day from. I'm not if I call myself a geothermal scientist. I get so mocked because that is absolutely not the case. However, I thought about that honor and about what does that mean for me? Because we do this and we don't look for honors and awards and what it means for me is that because I have always been instilled with the, there's nothing I can't do as long as I'm a good person and I respect people you know that's prerequisite there's nothing that I can't do.
Speaker 1:That means I have always pushed hard and tried to be. I know I can take the hits. I'm quite resilient. I know that I can speak for people who don't often have a voice and that I have a moral obligation to do that because I can and I've put myself in a position in my life where me and my business partner at Upflow we're very strong on standing up when we need to stand up and take positions that are important. So I've had lots of sticks and stones in my life. Doing these hard things doesn't come without hate or, you know, you're breaking things that people are very comfortable having as they are and you're threatening strong forts there. When you're asking to storm or storming castles, people don't like it very much.
Speaker 2:Well, it doesn't allow them to sit back and have a cup of tea when they're storming.
Speaker 1:That's right, and a perfect word for themselves. So when I go into those roles, like global high visibility roles, and I change things and act as myself, I have had quite a bit of hate and pushback and we see that lots of political, female political leaders around the world get a lot of heat and regardless of your political spectrum or where you sit, the kind of human insults and behaviors that happen are just intolerable anyway.
Speaker 2:So I've had that and and, by the way, I agree, I fully agree regardless of whatever side of the aisle you're on politically. It's never about the person. It should always be about the issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think if people knew that when I hear that I look at them, not the person they're trying to put down, anyway. So all of those sticks and stones that you've had and you get to hear it made me think, not that it was worth it because it's always been worth it, all the cool stuff that's happened, but just that maybe being seen is really nice, that it validates it a little bit that I should continue, and because it's really tiring too. You know it takes a lot of energy and you lot, you give up a lot. But that really made me think. Now I can be more bold, which is pretty scary for people who know me I can be. Oh god, I thought is pretty scary for people who know me.
Speaker 2:I can be more bold. Look out world.
Speaker 1:Oh God, I thought I was unstoppable before, but look at me now. But it means that I can now step forward stronger and feel validated a bit. Yeah, it's the right way.
Speaker 2:And what would you say your superpower is? We know we all know this that when we're working in our strengths or our zone of genius, you know we'll call it what you like that we just are much more effective. We were able to get further. What is that for you? I mean, I've got some, some thoughts, but love to hear that from you.
Speaker 1:I love to hear your thoughts. I think for me, my superpower is I lift things up. So people think let's solve this small problem, like so in New Zealand, let's have a women empowerment group. And I think no, let's do global, let's change the global thing. Why are we mucking around? Let's go big now. People can only say no, and who cares? It doesn't hurt. So I think I have a strength and think really big and bold and why should it not be us? And we can do it. I think I am really good at seeing strengths in people. So in the science space there's lots of introverts and I think God, there's golden leadership and introverts. That because the way that we operate they never get realised. But we need that in the. So I think I think I'm quite good at seeing individuals and what they could bring and trying to make places for them to operate. So I personally love my personal. Why is to help others achieve things that they never thought were possible?
Speaker 2:that's a pretty cool thing to be a you know to have as your, as your, why that's pretty powerful it really fills me up, like the people I work with every day.
Speaker 1:I think, god, the world needs to see the magic that you have, and how do I kick the barriers and walls down to make that happen? So that's really fulfilling for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is not a question I thought I would ask, but I kind of feel drawn to it. What about politics for you?
Speaker 1:oh, you are not the first person to ask me that?
Speaker 2:No, that doesn't surprise me. I feel like I'm probably the hundredth person to ask you that.
Speaker 1:I'd be the Sonny Bill of politics. I have off the bench, high impact, short-lived career because I don't think even a Blair for Mayor campaign. Some of my friends have tried to start up. I think I'm way too intolerant of so. If I was sitting down listening to people talking about the long-term plan and listening to Barry from whatever, I'd be like boo, I don't care, Barry, see you later. So I don't think that I could keep it down enough to be successful in politics I want to support. I think politics have a really strong place and I want to support people in those roles that do that. But I want change to happen faster and I can't do it inside that system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think you can impact change globally in a way that will impact your home country better anyway. Possibly and a stat that I learned literally a week ago and I can't believe it's taken me all this time in my life to know this is that 90% of the world live in the Northern Hemisphere. So if we are talking about our issues down here, and even if we include all of South America and all of Southern Africa and all of Australia and New Zealand, it's still only 10% of the world. So have an impact globally, because that's what has the impact right.
Speaker 1:And it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:You say that because when I received that we on United Nations Award last year and we went up and they flew us up to New York and we were part of, you know, a whole week of climate talks with the UN and on panels and the solutions that we're bringing to the table, I was there thinking, oh my god, this group is you know the people I'm going to meet you know, massive like the Gates's and all the the big names they're going to be like look at this country, bumpkin with some of this, the cool number eight wire stuff they're doing down there.
Speaker 1:No, what really resonated for me in that was people loved the work that we were doing. It is right at the front. Some of the smart work we're doing in New Zealand and in the geothermal space is leading thinking and it's right on the world's edge of forward thinking. We just don't have the market support and the funds to really oxygenate the things we're doing and lift it up in a big, visible way. So the thing that I learned from that was we aren't different to them, we are the same and we just don't have that access and we need to get it.
Speaker 2:Have you ever suffered imposter syndrome in these roles? Or did you early on and then you started to realise hang on a second we're actually world leading.
Speaker 1:I'm a world leader. I just need to own this.
Speaker 2:I don't mean that in a big headed way did you have a bit of almost like an awakening that? Hang on a second. Why am I feeling or did you just never feel imposter syndrome in this stuff?
Speaker 1:I think I have moments of, oh my God, I'm speaking at the UN. I'm from Tohara College, massive and, I think, bizarre the world difference where I am and the influence that I'm having. I don't think I've held that on to myself, as I'm less than I have always, and I think this is due to my upbringing and my family, and so when I've stood on stage and I've spoken to thousands of people, I'm the person with the mic in front of people. I have never felt in trouble or worried about what I'm going to say or do, because I don't pretend and I will never pretend I know something I don't. I will have opinions, but I will never try and be something else. So I can never be caught out, and that's what I've always been like and I can take the hit.
Speaker 1:I can be wrong. That's the other thing. I'm not scared of being wrong and I love to be challenged, and so when I stand up and be me, I'm being me and I'm okay with that, and so I don't feel like an imposter at being me, yeah, and so I don't feel like an imposter at being me, yeah, and that's how I sort of deal with it because it comes from a deep place of knowing you, of knowing yourself yeah, and having trust that, whatever happens, you know, my dad always said I don't care if you're you know the prime minister or if you're pumping gas at a petrol station, but you have to work hard and do the best you can and wherever you are.
Speaker 1:And I know that tomorrow, if this all falls over and I need to go and pump gas, I'll turn up tomorrow and pump gas without any care or concern and I'll do the best I can. So that's all part of it, I think.
Speaker 2:I'm actually getting slightly teary as I hear you say that, because my father said a very similar thing. I think the expression was Greg, if you want to be a drain layer, and I don't know where he got that from, because I'm not very practical but if you want to be a, drain layer, be a drain layer, be the best drain layer that there is, and it's just great.
Speaker 2:And more kids need to hear that from not even just their parents, but from people around them, absolutely, not even just their parents, but from people around them.
Speaker 1:You know, like it's yeah, absolutely, and I think that's a real fundamental core part of myself. I carry around, as you probably do, greg, and I do know also, in those moments where I'm standing up and I'm being me, that others don't have that luxury and privilege and that I'm standing there and I should take it because I have a moral responsibility. If I can, I should. And other women seeing me at the front, other people in different spaces seeing me at the front, it's really important.
Speaker 2:And so I should do it Totally, I totally, totally, totally agree, changing tacks slightly. How do you sort of fill your tanks, like do you take time out, do you exercise, do you read books, you listen to music, like how do you? Because you're busy, right. So how do you? How do you kind of recharge?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's. It's funny because everyone says what about balance? And balance is a misnomer, yeah, that people use to beat themselves up with. So either you're failing at home or you're failing at life.
Speaker 1:I think that the most important thing is that you build a life where you are able to focus on what you need to focus on at the time. So if my family needs me, I can be there, or if my work needs me, I can be there, and I think that's the thing that I try and work hard for. I don't have children, so that gives me a lot of time and space. I feel an to because I don't have children. I'm very looked after niece and nephew who I get to take to Disneyland and cool stuff like that because I don't have to buy shoes for them or feed them. I have a moral obligation to do something, because I have that time and space to do something good in the world for everybody's children, because you know I have that, and so I get filled up by stepping into those spaces and getting the privilege of doing that. I mean, I enjoy day drinking with my friends and I think I may have some superpowers in that space.
Speaker 2:Your problem-solving ability in those spaces?
Speaker 1:Yeah and I'm a really rubbish golfer, but I'm really starting to enjoy that playing golf because it takes me out into nature and I can do some physical things. So for me, I mean I love what I do. It fills me up. Every day, the team I work with fill me up so I don't feel empty. And do you read I love? Yeah, I love to read. Yeah, I'm like one of those people that I'll read a novel in two days and just consume. So I've got to be careful.
Speaker 2:And so it's novels, it's fiction, it's escape.
Speaker 1:I find it hard to do work-ish or personal journey stuff outside of work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One final question Is there something that you have quite a strong belief in that is maybe a little counterculture and very few people believe it? It's an interesting question Is there something that you have quite a strong belief in that is maybe a little counterculture and very few people believe it?
Speaker 1:It's an interesting question.
Speaker 1:I think my political statement about politicians are probably not the leaders that will lead us through the change is probably goes against the grain a little bit.
Speaker 1:I also think that men need to lead the charge for gender equality yeah, totally, and I work really hard on that in space, and that Ayo Mō is the person that brings that up in spaces and challenges people.
Speaker 1:I think also I have a strong view about Western science and mātauranga. That's indigenous knowledge from a that's a word, the Māori word for indigenous knowledge, for Māori, mā tōranga and thinking about how other knowledge systems have a place beside Western science and about how Western science isn't the only way to think about the world, and not just from a spiritual sort of view, but from an actual understanding and operating in the world space. In Western science we think we have to know individuals seek the edge of knowledge and push really hard on that edge, and we know that robust challenge to a hypothesis is what makes it real and stand over time. Is that challenge? Well, if we could get our scientists to be challenged from a matauranga even a whole knowledge system that's outside and if they open their brain to that challenge, maybe our solutions would in fact be more robust, yeah yeah, I, I completely agree.
Speaker 1:And so for me, I've been thinking about that space for a little while, and how does that happen? And challenging Western science to allow the space for something completely outside of the framework.
Speaker 2:Well, I am honestly just so impressed by you and I really do hope that you keep thinking along those lines and being an agitator in some of the rooms and the boardrooms and things that you're in globally. It's been a huge honour to be able to chat to you today. You're super busy and it's been quite hard to get our calendars to align. I think you may have even got COVID there at one point to get our calendars to align. I think you may have even got COVID there at one point, but I'm going to go away over the weekend and do a bit of research on Thermus aquaticus and actually look at finding out a little bit about that. So, honestly, thank you, andy. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you today and thank God, we've got people and women like you in our world kind of leading the charge on some stuff. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Kia ora Greg and kia ora Koso, and it's been a great chat and I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Hey, don't forget to check out Deskwork, the team behind you, being able to build high-performing offshore teams for your startups and SMEs. It's deskworkco. Backslash, greg, and go and save yourself some hard-earned money.