Welcome to the Virtual Antics podcast, where we help entrepreneurs streamline their business to six figures and beyond. These short, sweet and info packed episodes will inspire, educate and leave you feeling motivated to take one more step forward in your business. So put down your never-ending to-do list, because in this podcast, we are interviewing the best of the best in the entrepreneurial world as they spill their secrets to success. This podcast is sponsored by Nandora, the all-in-one software for entrepreneurs to grow their business, with unlimited landing pages, automations, emails and text campaigns, and so much more. I'm your host, natalie Guzman. Now let's get into it. Hey y'all, welcome back to the Virtual Antics podcast. I'm your host, natalie Guzman, so excited to have Jake Stahl with us today. He is a conversational maestro and a fractional chief learning officer who spent over 30 years across six countries crafting a transformative approach called the Adaptive Conversational Blueprint. Welcome, jake.
Speaker 2Good morning Natalie. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1I'm so excited you're here, so I love this idea and I love that you call yourself a conversational maestro, so can you tell us some more about what you do and how you got started with this?
Speaker 2Yeah, sure. So I was raised in the class of people, or the age of people, where kids were to be seen and not heard. So I was fortunate enough to sit in on a lot of meetings with my dad, who was a prominent businessman, and just listen. As you know, when we're young we don't appreciate it near as much as we do when we're older. So I think there were a lot of lessons that sunk in.
Speaker 2So I went into a career in sales. I sold for four different companies and at one point somebody asked me if I'd be interested in training someone and that kind of was like the. That was the moment. That was the moment where I thought, wow, this is it, this is what I'm supposed to do. So it started a long career where I was able to travel and learn from people. I think that was the biggest thing, natalie was I just I listened to people and learned from them to figure out what needed to be done with everybody at a baseline. Yeah, you know everybody's different, but there's a baseline, I think, where everybody needs to have certain conversational dynamics 100%.
Speaker 1We actually had a recent episode with a Darlene per day and she was talking about sales and how a lot most of it is actually listening to the person you're talking to. I think entrepreneurs get wrapped around so much about you know, like about the sales and about making money, and they don't really take the time to actually listen to the person they're talking to, because they could say that they're getting on a sales call for one reason, but really they need six other things. Exactly right, yeah, so what do you notice? Like, what are some things that you recommend to people that are either getting started in sales or maybe they're just trying to sell their own company or service?
Speaker 2Yeah, don't start with the words how are you? You know, natalie, we are so conditioned with certain responses that they almost become non-conversation. I'll give you a great example. My wife and I were Christmas shopping this last season and we walked by a gentleman in a shop and he and I locked eyes and I just said hey. And he said fine, thanks, how are you? And that conversation never took place, and yet in our brain it did so.
Speaker 2One of the first pieces of advice I would give is to start to establish trust with something that's not going to trigger certain conditioning, and a way to do that would be to research your customer and when you get on with them, say you know what, I couldn't wait to call you, I'm so glad you picked up. And here's why it trips that it steps over that trigger that that other person has to just respond in a certain way. And when we come in with a certain sales approach, we trigger a certain set of response defensive matrices that go off in the other person's head, and we want to try and avoid those if we can and start to build trust from word one.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I even notice a lot of times people get on a discovery call with me and they're like OK, I'm ready for your spiel, I'm ready for your speech. And I never have one. And my discovery calls are literally just a conversation to figure out who you are, what you do and how I can help. And they assume that I'm going to go all of a sudden and I call it hard sales where you go after them and you're like this is everything about my business, but it's just really, really interesting that everyone kind of thinks that.
Speaker 1So do you think there's a difference between I always hear the terms hard sales and soft sales, right? So what's the difference, and tell me a little bit more about that.
Speaker 2Sure. So let's take a step back first and just say that sales in itself has its own stigma. So when we say let's say we're starting a business or we get to be a salesperson, a lot of people say I have a hard time selling because I don't want to hard sell someone, and I think the word sell almost has hard attached to it right away. A hard sell is when you really push, despite what the customer needs, despite what they're looking for and despite whether I can actually help them or not. I jam the product down their throat. And this is a product often of who I work for or what I need. So if I'm desperate, if I really need a sale or my boss is saying you better make a sale, I probably will push more towards the hard sale.
Speaker 2A soft sell is when you're coming in and you're building trust and you're actually listening and there's a back and forth between you and the customer and the sale isn't an obvious part of the conversation. And a great example, natalie, is if you and I get on a conversation, we start to build trust and we get to the point where you actually say you know, jake, what is it you want to talk about? That's when you're building into a soft sale. Or it may be multiple attempts at the sale with none of them really having what we would call a hard close or definite call to action. I personally feel, as a person that's been training for a while, I personally feel every sale would be better off as a soft sale, but I know my opinion isn't always highly regarded by people with certain KPIs they have to make.
Speaker 1Yeah, I know, as a business owner, I always done soft sales and that's how I've always. You know that's how my business was able to hit six figures in three months was because I soft sailed and I built relationships. Because if you're coming in and you're not a business with a well established brand, I feel like hard sales aren't going to work because you don't have that trust already established. They're just learning about you, Unless it's a referral, of course, but even a referral you want to soft sales because you're trying to nurture the relationships.
Speaker 1So soft sales and my closing rates like 97%, which is insane.
Speaker 2Yeah, congratulations, that's amazing.
Speaker 1Thank you and that, of course, it took a while to get there.
Speaker 2Well, of course, yeah. Well, you have to find who you are and you have to get that voice that works. So good for you, congratulations.
Thank you. Yeah, and that's only because I do soft sales too, and how I get my leads so we talked about that with Darlene. Today was like a lot of things go into your closing right and one of those is how you're getting your leads. Are you getting them like just straight from ads or are they already working to you as a whole thing?
Speaker 2So what are?
Speaker 1the questions we should ask in our sales call.
Speaker 2Well, there's a couple of things we need to ask, and the funny thing is it's rarely about whether they need our product. We should ask things like how often do you do this? How often do you need this type of product? What pain spot does this fill for you? Have you looked at other products that are similar and what did you find?
Speaker 2I don't like to say discovery questions. I think they're more designed to elicit information. And the funny thing is, natalie, we don't even need to ask questions, we can just make statements along the way. An example is let's say, I'm selling health benefits. You know, when we get on the phone, it's like so how often do you do this? I do this once a year and I really hate doing it. So you're doing this once a year? That must be painful. Yeah, it really is painful. So you probably go through a lot of decision makers. You know it doesn't have to be questions, and that's part of what I consider an even softer sell, where you're repeating back key bits of information, getting them to give you more than you may have gotten had you actually asked the question, and, at the same time, you're building trust because they're doing most of the talking.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's a really, really good point. I think. Even like when I'm hiring the people that are repeating what I'm saying back to me to show that they understand, like I pay attention, I'm like, oh, that's good.
Speaker 2Cause.
Speaker 1That means attention, they're gonna remember Like it's kind of like that memory thing too, and it helps some people's memory and I'm like okay, so you're actually taking the time to make sure you remember what I'm saying and that you're caring and you're paying attention to as I'm talking, because you know it's really easy to space out during a conversation. I've done it during podcast calls. So it's really important that we are, you know, really focused and I think repeating the statements or the feelings, the motions, can be really powerful.
Speaker 2That was awesome.
Speaker 1Now, what are some mistakes that you see people in sales make a lot.
Speaker 2I think one of the biggest ones is selling your product too soon. You know, we tend to get into a conversation and we really really want to tell people what we know and that's great and you're a salesperson and you should have that desire. But we have to understand receptivity on the other side is gonna be directly proportional to how much time you allowed to build trust first. So here's a great example.
Speaker 2Natalie, if you and I just meet and I say to you, let's say something off key maybe it's. You know, I don't like your backdrop or whatever. I love your backdrop. I'm just using this as an example. You may not be as receptive to that. But if you and I built a relationship and let's say at the end of the call, I'm like Natalie, that backdrop is kind of wild. It's never considered changing that. You're gonna take it much differently. So how much you listen to me is going to be directly proportional to how much I listen to you already and how much trust we've built. When I do my reach outs, I don't talk about me for the first two or three reach outs and the wild thing is eventually somebody comes back and goes. You know I've done a ton of talking and giving you a bunch of information. I know nothing about you. Well, their ability to receive my information, that is probably at peak, and that's when I can start to talk about what I have to say.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I've noticed that a lot of times. I will get you know people on a discovery call with me and they say you know, I went with you because you actually asked me what my business was. You know, especially the world of resistance, like that's super popular that virtual system won't even ask you what your business is, who your target market is, like all things you need to know to make your job like successful, to actually provide.
Speaker 2Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1And it also shows you know you're actually trying to get to know them. They're not just a number, they're not just money. To you, Exactly, yeah. So that's crazy. I think that people don't even ask the simple questions.
Speaker 2Well and I think there's a part two to that, natalie is that when you ask the questions, one of the things I've espoused for years is you need to have a cadence in your conversation. So cadence, in my opinion, far outweighs the content, because until you and I have the back and forth and I've shown you I'm going to listen and you've shown me you're going to listen, what I have to say just isn't as important. You're going to establish that back and forth, Then content becomes important. But the salesperson who leads with content, you're just, you're starting an uphill battle and it's very difficult.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think too, you could actually be like almost like battling against yourself, because if you're selling right up front, you don't know what they actually need. You could be giving them the wrong service or products. I've even had people that have come to me where my services were not going to be a fit, but I was able to refer them and then I had refer affiliate payout, so it was another stream of income. But I wouldn't have known that they were not right fit unless I had a really deep and meaningful conversation with them about what they're really struggling with and what they're absolutely, and if I just sell them and they bought my thing.
Speaker 1It would have been disastrous. That's the quickest way to get one star review. I feel like yeah.
Speaker 2I agree, and you know you referring them to somebody is really that goes so far in establishing trust and it actually makes people want to call you back again. I think a lot of salespeople are under the illusion that if I steer you away from my product, I've lost you as a customer. And they've done psychological tests on this and found that it actually makes people want to come back to you more than if you had actually sold them. So it's amazing, but it's very counterintuitive.
Speaker 1Yeah, actually put them through a funnel so they don't leave if they are not a fit for my services or my products. I actually put them through my affiliate program because then they're able to then refer it to maybe someone that would be a good fit after establishing that trust. So I'm a funnel and automations girl, so that's definitely like. I love that stuff. That is awesome.
Speaker 1Yeah and so a lot of people are scared of sales. So what would you say to someone that is afraid to actually, you know, get on a call and sell their product or service?
Speaker 2Sure. So let's talk a little bit about the term sales, which we addressed a little bit earlier. I think sales is tied to the use car guy or gal, the people who do magazines on the phone or who are selling extended warranties. But the reality is we've been selling for a long time and my favorite example is think about the cave drawings that we've discovered over the years. Those are sales.
Speaker 2You're selling people on your adventure. You're telling a story that you hope someone's going to listen to or look at to understand your message. It goes through hieroglyphics. There's a million different examples of communicating to extend a message, to convince someone that you had a good time or you had a great adventure or something should be purchased. So when we frame sales like that, we do it all the time.
Speaker 2Another version of sales is. One of my favorite examples is a lion never has to tell you it's a lion. The gazelle knows, the zookeeper knows, everybody knows you're a lion. So, people who are afraid of sales, my two biggest piece of advice are don't think of it as sales, think of it as storytelling. And second is delve into your passion. Just talk about it and let your passion come out and you're going to generate the other person's interest. Sales is when you try to make that close at the end and we talked about the hard versus soft close. But I think people tend to lose perspective in the fact that by being passionate about a topic, you're already selling. So when you get the fact out of your head that you don't need to call it sales, all of a sudden it becomes a lot easier.
Speaker 1I love that. That's super powerful and it's definitely it's kind of like anything in life. Some things are really scary, maybe out of our comfort zone, but if we keep putting the work and the effort in, eventually it's going to become like second major to us. It's just something you have to work towards. Not everything's going to come easy Absolutely Amazing. Well, can you tell us more about where we can find you and your services?
Speaker 2Sure, you can find me on LinkedIn, obviously under Jake Stahl on LinkedIn. You can also find me at my website, jakestahlconsultingcom. I do corporate consulting. I have a lot of individual clients that I help them through their sales or entrepreneurial journey. So it's. I also do fractional chief learning officers, so I will step in and do the head of training and development for a company, get them started and then walk away so people can reach out to me any of those spots.
Speaker 1Awesome. Make sure I put that in the show notes as well.
Speaker 2Thank you.
Speaker 1Thank you so much, Jake, for coming on the show. We'll talk to you guys next time on the Virtual Index Podcast.