Welcome to the Virtual Antics podcast , where we help entrepreneurs streamline their business to six figures and beyond . These short , sweet and info packed episodes will inspire , educate and leave you feeling motivated to take one more step forward in your business . So put down your never-ending to-do list , because in this podcast , we are interviewing the best of the best in the entrepreneurial world as they spill their secrets to success . This podcast is sponsored by Nandora , the all-in-one software for entrepreneurs to grow their business , with unlimited landing pages , automations , emails and text campaigns , and so much more . I'm your host , natalie Guzman . Now let's get into it . Hey y'all , welcome back to the Virtual Antics podcast . I'm your host , natalie Guzman , so excited to have Jake Stahl with us today . He is a conversational maestro and a fractional chief learning officer who spent over 30 years across six countries crafting a transformative approach called the Adaptive Conversational Blueprint . Welcome , jake .
Speaker 2Good morning Natalie . Thank you so much for having me .
Speaker 1I'm so excited you're here , so I love this idea and I love that you call yourself a conversational maestro , so can you tell us some more about what you do and how you got started with this ?
Speaker 2Yeah , sure . So I was raised in the class of people , or the age of people , where kids were to be seen and not heard . So I was fortunate enough to sit in on a lot of meetings with my dad , who was a prominent businessman , and just listen . As you know , when we're young we don't appreciate it near as much as we do when we're older . So I think there were a lot of lessons that sunk in .
Speaker 2So I went into a career in sales . I sold for four different companies and at one point somebody asked me if I'd be interested in training someone and that kind of was like the . That was the moment . That was the moment where I thought , wow , this is it , this is what I'm supposed to do . So it started a long career where I was able to travel and learn from people . I think that was the biggest thing , natalie was I just I listened to people and learned from them to figure out what needed to be done with everybody at a baseline . Yeah , you know everybody's different , but there's a baseline , I think , where everybody needs to have certain conversational dynamics 100% .
Speaker 1We actually had a recent episode with a Darlene per day and she was talking about sales and how a lot most of it is actually listening to the person you're talking to . I think entrepreneurs get wrapped around so much about you know , like about the sales and about making money , and they don't really take the time to actually listen to the person they're talking to , because they could say that they're getting on a sales call for one reason , but really they need six other things . Exactly right , yeah , so what do you notice ? Like , what are some things that you recommend to people that are either getting started in sales or maybe they're just trying to sell their own company or service ?
Speaker 2Yeah , don't start with the words how are you ? You know , natalie , we are so conditioned with certain responses that they almost become non-conversation . I'll give you a great example . My wife and I were Christmas shopping this last season and we walked by a gentleman in a shop and he and I locked eyes and I just said hey . And he said fine , thanks , how are you ? And that conversation never took place , and yet in our brain it did so .
Speaker 2One of the first pieces of advice I would give is to start to establish trust with something that's not going to trigger certain conditioning , and a way to do that would be to research your customer and when you get on with them , say you know what , I couldn't wait to call you , I'm so glad you picked up . And here's why it trips that it steps over that trigger that that other person has to just respond in a certain way . And when we come in with a certain sales approach , we trigger a certain set of response defensive matrices that go off in the other person's head , and we want to try and avoid those if we can and start to build trust from word one .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I even notice a lot of times people get on a discovery call with me and they're like OK , I'm ready for your spiel , I'm ready for your speech . And I never have one . And my discovery calls are literally just a conversation to figure out who you are , what you do and how I can help . And they assume that I'm going to go all of a sudden and I call it hard sales where you go after them and you're like this is everything about my business , but it's just really , really interesting that everyone kind of thinks that .
Speaker 1So do you think there's a difference between I always hear the terms hard sales and soft sales , right ? So what's the difference , and tell me a little bit more about that .
Speaker 2Sure . So let's take a step back first and just say that sales in itself has its own stigma . So when we say let's say we're starting a business or we get to be a salesperson , a lot of people say I have a hard time selling because I don't want to hard sell someone , and I think the word sell almost has hard attached to it right away . A hard sell is when you really push , despite what the customer needs , despite what they're looking for and despite whether I can actually help them or not . I jam the product down their throat . And this is a product often of who I work for or what I need . So if I'm desperate , if I really need a sale or my boss is saying you better make a sale , I probably will push more towards the hard sale .
Speaker 2A soft sell is when you're coming in and you're building trust and you're actually listening and there's a back and forth between you and the customer and the sale isn't an obvious part of the conversation . And a great example , natalie , is if you and I get on a conversation , we start to build trust and we get to the point where you actually say you know , jake , what is it you want to talk about ? That's when you're building into a soft sale . Or it may be multiple attempts at the sale with none of them really having what we would call a hard close or definite call to action . I personally feel , as a person that's been training for a while , I personally feel every sale would be better off as a soft sale , but I know my opinion isn't always highly regarded by people with certain KPIs they have to make .
Speaker 1Yeah , I know , as a business owner , I always done soft sales and that's how I've always . You know that's how my business was able to hit six figures in three months was because I soft sailed and I built relationships . Because if you're coming in and you're not a business with a well established brand , I feel like hard sales aren't going to work because you don't have that trust already established . They're just learning about you , Unless it's a referral , of course , but even a referral you want to soft sales because you're trying to nurture the relationships .
Speaker 1So soft sales and my closing rates like 97% , which is insane .
Speaker 2Yeah , congratulations , that's amazing .
Speaker 1Thank you and that , of course , it took a while to get there .
Speaker 2Well , of course , yeah . Well , you have to find who you are and you have to get that voice that works . So good for you , congratulations .
Speaker 1Thank you . Yeah , and that's only because I do soft sales too , and how I get my leads so we talked about that with
Darlene . Today was like a lot of things go into your closing right and one of those is how you're getting your leads . Are you getting them like just straight from ads or are they already working to you as a whole thing ?
Speaker 2So what are ?
Speaker 1the questions we should ask in our sales call .
Speaker 2Well , there's a couple of things we need to ask , and the funny thing is it's rarely about whether they need our product . We should ask things like how often do you do this ? How often do you need this type of product ? What pain spot does this fill for you ? Have you looked at other products that are similar and what did you find ?
Speaker 2I don't like to say discovery questions . I think they're more designed to elicit information . And the funny thing is , natalie , we don't even need to ask questions , we can just make statements along the way . An example is let's say , I'm selling health benefits . You know , when we get on the phone , it's like so how often do you do this ? I do this once a year and I really hate doing it . So you're doing this once a year ? That must be painful . Yeah , it really is painful . So you probably go through a lot of decision makers . You know it doesn't have to be questions , and that's part of what I consider an even softer sell , where you're repeating back key bits of information , getting them to give you more than you may have gotten had you actually asked the question , and , at the same time , you're building trust because they're doing most of the talking .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's a really , really good point . I think . Even like when I'm hiring the people that are repeating what I'm saying back to me to show that they understand , like I pay attention , I'm like , oh , that's good .
Speaker 2Cause .
Speaker 1That means attention , they're gonna remember Like it's kind of like that memory thing too , and it helps some people's memory and I'm like okay , so you're actually taking the time to make sure you remember what I'm saying and that you're caring and you're paying attention to as I'm talking , because you know it's really easy to space out during a conversation . I've done it during podcast calls . So it's really important that we are , you know , really focused and I think repeating the statements or the feelings , the motions , can be really powerful .
Speaker 2That was awesome .
Speaker 1Now , what are some mistakes that you see people in sales make a lot .
Speaker 2I think one of the biggest ones is selling your product too soon . You know , we tend to get into a conversation and we really really want to tell people what we know and that's great and you're a salesperson and you should have that desire . But we have to understand receptivity on the other side is gonna be directly proportional to how much time you allowed to build trust first . So here's a great example .
Speaker 2Natalie , if you and I just meet and I say to you , let's say something off key maybe it's . You know , I don't like your backdrop or whatever . I love your backdrop . I'm just using this as an example . You may not be as receptive to that . But if you and I built a relationship and let's say at the end of the call , I'm like Natalie , that backdrop is kind of wild . It's never considered changing that . You're gonna take it much differently . So how much you listen to me is going to be directly proportional to how much I listen to you already and how much trust we've built . When I do my reach outs , I don't talk about me for the first two or three reach outs and the wild thing is eventually somebody comes back and goes . You know I've done a ton of talking and giving you a bunch of information . I know nothing about you . Well , their ability to receive my information , that is probably at peak , and that's when I can start to talk about what I have to say .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I've noticed that a lot of times . I will get you know people on a discovery call with me and they say you know , I went with you because you actually asked me what my business was . You know , especially the world of resistance , like that's super popular that virtual system won't even ask you what your business is , who your target market is , like all things you need to know to make your job like successful , to actually provide .
Speaker 2Absolutely yeah .
Speaker 1And it also shows you know you're actually trying to get to know them . They're not just a number , they're not just money . To you , Exactly , yeah . So that's crazy . I think that people don't even ask the simple questions .
Speaker 2Well and I think there's a part two to that , natalie is that when you ask the questions , one of the things I've espoused for years is you need to have a cadence in your conversation . So cadence , in my opinion , far outweighs the content , because until you and I have the back and forth and I've shown you I'm going to listen and you've shown me you're going to listen , what I have to say just isn't as important . You're going to establish that back and forth , Then content becomes important . But the salesperson who leads with content , you're just , you're starting an uphill battle and it's very difficult .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I think too , you could actually be like almost like battling against yourself , because if you're selling right up front , you don't know what they actually need . You could be giving them the wrong service or products . I've even had people that have come to me where my services were not going to be a fit , but I was able to refer them and then I had refer affiliate payout , so it was another stream of income . But I wouldn't have known that they were not right fit unless I had a really deep and meaningful conversation with them about what they're really struggling with and what they're absolutely , and if I just sell them and they bought my thing .
Speaker 1It would have been disastrous . That's the quickest way to get one star review . I feel like yeah .
Speaker 2I agree , and you know you referring them to somebody is really that goes so far in establishing trust and it actually makes people want to call you back again . I think a lot of salespeople are under the illusion that if I steer you away from my product , I've lost you as a customer . And they've done psychological tests on this and found that it actually makes people want to come back to you more than if you had actually sold them . So it's amazing , but it's very counterintuitive .
Speaker 1Yeah , actually put them through a funnel so they don't leave if they are not a fit for my services or my products . I actually put them through my affiliate program because then they're able to then refer it to maybe someone that would be a good fit after establishing that trust . So I'm a funnel and automations girl , so that's definitely like . I love that stuff . That is awesome .
Speaker 1Yeah and so a lot of people are scared of sales . So what would you say to someone that is afraid to actually , you know , get on a call and sell their product or service ?
Speaker 2Sure . So let's talk a little bit about the term sales , which we addressed a little bit earlier . I think sales is tied to the use car guy or gal , the people who do magazines on the phone or who are selling extended warranties . But the reality is we've been selling for a long time and my favorite example is think about the cave drawings that we've discovered over the years . Those are sales .
Speaker 2You're selling people on your adventure . You're telling a story that you hope someone's going to listen to or look at to understand your message . It goes through hieroglyphics . There's a million different examples of communicating to extend a message , to convince someone that you had a good time or you had a great adventure or something should be purchased . So when we frame sales like that , we do it all the time .
Speaker 2Another version of sales is . One of my favorite examples is a lion never has to tell you it's a lion . The gazelle knows , the zookeeper knows , everybody knows you're a lion . So , people who are afraid of sales , my two biggest piece of advice are don't think of it as sales , think of it as storytelling . And second is delve into your passion . Just talk about it and let your passion come out and you're going to generate the other person's interest . Sales is when you try to make that close at the end and we talked about the hard versus soft close . But I think people tend to lose perspective in the fact that by being passionate about a topic , you're already selling . So when you get the fact out of your head that you don't need to call it sales , all of a sudden it becomes a lot easier .
Speaker 1I love that . That's super powerful and it's definitely it's kind of like anything in life . Some things are really scary , maybe out of our comfort zone , but if we keep putting the work and the effort in , eventually it's going to become like second major to us . It's just something you have to work towards . Not everything's going to come easy Absolutely Amazing . Well , can you tell us more about where we can find you and your services ?
Speaker 2Sure , you can find me on LinkedIn , obviously under Jake Stahl on LinkedIn . You can also find me at my website , jakestahlconsultingcom . I do corporate consulting . I have a lot of individual clients that I help them through their sales or entrepreneurial journey . So it's . I also do fractional chief learning officers , so I will step in and do the head of training and development for a company , get them started and then walk away so people can reach out to me any of those spots .
Speaker 1Awesome . Make sure I put that in the show notes as well .
Speaker 2Thank you .
Speaker 1Thank you so much , Jake , for coming on the show . We'll talk to you guys next time on the Virtual Index Podcast .