36. Level Up Your Thriller, Mystery & Suspense with Samantha Skal & Kerry Savage

Suspense, mysteries and thrillers, oh my! Welcome to spooky season! Inside this episode of Steps to Story I'm talking with book coaches Samantha Skal and Kerry Savage about:

• The ideation of twists
• Knowing your villain
• Character POV
• The power of creativity community
• Managing your WIP

And so much more!

You can Samantha Skal here.
You can find Kerry Savage here.
You can find Shadows & Secrets here.
To find more on Nicole -
Website | Instagram | Free Guide✨

Transcript

STEPS TO STORY EP 35 - Samantha Skal and Kerry Savage Interview 

[00:00:00] Kerry Savage: I love helping people see a road map from start to finish or wherever they come to me in their book writing process. Putting a plan in place for them to say like, here's where I am, stake in the ground, here's what I need to do, and here's where the finish line is. And then, of course, getting them across that finish line.

[00:00:16] Kerry Savage: It's such a good feeling. 

[00:00:17] Samantha Skal: Mystery Tellers and Suspense are really just the villain's journey as experienced by the protagonist. And that really, really helped me turn everything on its head and approach things in a more logical way. My brain is very logical. For me, being able to map things out and understand how to come at a story a different way so that all those clues, all those twists actually land was really, really fundamental to changing the way that I approached everything.

[00:00:48] Nicole Meier: Welcome to Steps to Story, the show that helps aspiring authors turn their ideas into action and transform their dream of writing a book into a reality. I'm your host, Nicole Meyer, multi published author and certified book coach. I spent the first part of my fiction writing career desperate for guidance that was unavailable to me.

[00:01:10] Nicole Meier: I wrote draft after draft, flying by the seat of my pants, with lots of passion but little guidance. Thankfully, there was a writing community that opened its arms and welcomed me. This community sustained me, but when it came to strengthening my novel writing process, I was determined to find a better way.

[00:01:31] Nicole Meier: One that didn't involve piecemeal strategies. and confusing courses. Now, more than a decade later, I'm serving my younger self who yearned for support while writing a book. If you're an emerging author seeking guidance, this podcast is for you. Are you on the list to get my novel writing guide? I designed this workbook to take you through five essential strategies that will level up your novel writing process.

[00:02:00] Nicole Meier: Grab your copy at nicolemeier. com forward slash crafting greatness. That's nicolemeier. com forward slash crafting greatness or at the link in the show notes.

[00:02:21] Nicole Meier: Hello, Steps to Story listeners. I am so happy you're here today and I'm so happy because I have two fabulous guests who I personally know but also have been watching their careers as writers and book coaches and it's been really fun for me to connect with them on a deeper level. So, before I welcome them, I'd love to share their bios with you.

[00:02:42] Nicole Meier: First up, we have a fan of the scary, mysterious, and suspenseful, Samantha Scull is the executive director of Thriller Fest, the co founder of Shadows and Secrets Writing Retreats. And an Author Accelerator Certified Book Coach who specializes in coaching mystery, thriller, and suspense authors from novel planning through the delightful hell that is revision.

[00:03:04] Nicole Meier: An enthusiast of homemade sourdough and cheese of all kinds, Sam writes stories that keep her up at night and lives in the beautiful Pacific Northwest. We also have a voracious reader of all kinds of fiction, Carrie Savage. She's an Author Accelerator certified book coach who works with novelists from the planning stages through revision, helping writers get their best book ready for the world.

[00:03:29] Nicole Meier: She is also a J School grad and a recovering project manager, as well as being hard at work on her second novel. She's the co founder of Shadows and Secrets Writing Retreats, and she serves as a volunteer mentor for the Women's Fiction Writers Association and Sisters in Crime. She loves a good wine, cheese, and trying to keep her succulents alive.

[00:03:51] Nicole Meier: Welcome, Sam and Keri. Hi, thank you so much for having us, 

[00:03:56] Samantha Skal: Nicole. It's such a pleasure to be here. 

[00:03:57] Nicole Meier: It is, thanks. You're welcome. This is so fun. Now, this will be airing in October, which I love because I think it's a great season to think about what you guys specialize in, which are thrillers, mysteries, and all kinds of great upmarket novels.

[00:04:13] Nicole Meier: So, I think what I would love to do is put you on the spot first and say, could you share your zone of genius? 

[00:04:21] Samantha Skal: Whoa, such a good question. So, I'm Sam. Hi, so nice to meet you all. I specialize in twist brainstorming. So, if somebody is really struggling with their plot problems and they know that they want to write a really spooky or really twisty thriller, I'm your person.

[00:04:36] Samantha Skal: I just love getting on the phone with people. Figuring out how to make what you have very, very twisty and very, very fun and very, very delightful for the reader. 

[00:04:46] Nicole Meier: I love it. And you really do specialize that and you're known for it. I mean, hello, Thriller Fest, which we'll get to in a minute. It's a whole world.

[00:04:54] Nicole Meier: I know it. Okay, we're going to get to that for sure, but Carrie, I'm going to put you on the spot too. What is your zone of genius? 

[00:05:01] Kerry Savage: I would say my zone of genius is seeing a big picture and that sort of takes two prongs. So first of all, as you mentioned, I'm a recovering project manager and that is exactly how I like to think of it because it does really feel like a recovery process sometimes.

[00:05:14] Kerry Savage: But I did take all of that work in the digital sphere, which is what I used to do and now apply that to my coaching practice. And so really love helping people see a roadmap from start to finish or wherever they come to me in their book writing process. putting a plan in place for them to say, like, here's where I am, stake in the ground, here's what I need to do, and here's where the finish line is.

[00:05:35] Kerry Savage: And then, of course, getting them across that finish line, it's such a good feeling. And the other piece of that that I would say is, I love reading people's manuscripts and seeing that big picture. And pulling all elements together, helping them really see like, here are the pieces that are missing, and how you can bring that all together to write the book that you want to write.

[00:05:53] Kerry Savage: So the big picture kind of stuff is just my jam. Love it. 

[00:05:57] Nicole Meier: Yeah, that's great, Carrie. And I've had the benefit of being in one of your workshops for project management. So that definitely is something where you shine, I can say that. And I really like how you incorporate. That sort of methodology into let's get your book as strong as it can be, but let's look at it from that lens of project management because it is overwhelming.

[00:06:20] Nicole Meier: The three of us work with writers and the idea of pulling way back and looking at a whole project feels overwhelming to so many people. So I really like your approach and I know that it would appeal to a lot of people. Okay, so let's move on to what you all have been focusing on lately, which is your shadows and secrets.

[00:06:40] Nicole Meier: Can you both talk a little bit about what that looks like? What it will look like going forward? Share with our audience because they may not have heard of it before. 

[00:06:49] Samantha Skal: Sure. So Shadows and Secrets Writing Retreats is the writing retreat that Carrie and I wanted to go to. So we made it happen. It is mystery, thriller, and suspense focused.

[00:06:58] Samantha Skal: It's 2024 is going to be in a haunted hotel. And at the end of this podcast will already have happened. So hopefully we did not get too haunted. And we're really leaning into the spooky. So this is going to be for people who want to write about the dark stuff, the stuff that scares them. We're calling ourselves wildly inclusive slash no jerks, and that seems to have worked with our messaging because the group of people we now had in October for 2024 were just incredible and adore every single one of them.

[00:07:27] Samantha Skal: So if you're a thriller writer, mystery writer, suspense, horror, paranormal, anything like that, please check out our website and come check us out. We'd love to hear from you. 

[00:07:36] Nicole Meier: That's great. And I know that you two complement each other so well with your balance of what you bring to the table. So, Carrie, can you talk a little bit about how that balance works when you work with writers in Shadows and Secrets?

[00:07:49] Kerry Savage: Yeah, so I think we're taking this two pronged approach. I'm big on two prongs today, apparently. Sam is, as she mentioned, just a genius at twist ideation. And I've learned so much from her actually, the second novel that I am working on is a paranormal sort of thriller, twisty mystery thing. It's still in its very early planning stages.

[00:08:09] Kerry Savage: But I have learned so much from seeing her coach other people on Twists and the webinars that we've been doing and everything, where we share all that information. And then again, I'm bringing that big picture roadmap piece of saying, all right, here's your idea. You've got now this outline, you've got these great twists that Sam has helped you ideate, and now let's see, like, let's do this.

[00:08:28] Kerry Savage: Get down to brass tacks and help you figure out exactly how you're going to get your butt in the chair and get it done. And we both are just huge fans of sitting down and ideating twists and all kinds of things with people. So I think with this approach, with the two of us, you get two brains. Helping you brainstorm these solutions and solve problems and just come up with the spookiest stuff that we can.

[00:08:51] Kerry Savage: In the spookiest place that we could figure, so. 

[00:08:55] Samantha Skal: Yeah, absolutely. Carrie's novel is amazing, by the way, so everyone keep an eye out for that when it eventually makes its way into the world. I will also say that this retreat is a little longer than some of the retreats we've seen. It's not quite a week, but we have three full days and the goal is to really, really dive deep on your project.

[00:09:11] Samantha Skal: So we're welcoming anybody who has a novel that they're sort of thinking about all the way through someone who has most of a novel and is kind of stuck. But the goal is for a huge transformation over the course of this three days. So we're looking for people to really dive in with us and really focus.

[00:09:26] Samantha Skal: It is a retreat. You will have downtime, but we also are really focused on building this community with the Trawler Riders and getting everybody to be really comfortable sharing what they have. No forced sharing, but we're really excited about the format that we've come up with. 

[00:09:41] Nicole Meier: I'm excited about the format that sounds really well rounded what you both bring to the table and I know that the doors have closed for your first retreat but you're planning the next one already, correct?

[00:09:53] Kerry Savage: We are planning 2025 for sure we're not exactly sure when and where yet but definitely go to shadowsandsecretsretreat. com and get on our email list for updates. We're also doing craft webinars regularly so you can get informed about those if you join our email list. And is this the time for the big reveal, Sam?

[00:10:13] Samantha Skal: I, I think it is. Yeah, 

[00:10:15] Kerry Savage: what is it? Big chair. At Hawkwhips, uh, on the podcast, that we are going to be launching a membership as well for Shadows and Secrets, and that will be launching in January of 2025. So. Wow. We're on that to come, for sure. 

[00:10:30] Nicole Meier: What kind of writers are you guys looking for for the membership?

[00:10:32] Nicole Meier: Could they be just coming to you with a seed of an idea or do you want them to already have started working on a draft? Uh, you know, kind of 

[00:10:40] Samantha Skal: all of those. We're very open and we're going to design the membership in such a way that wherever you are in the process, you'll be able to come in and learn something.

[00:10:48] Samantha Skal: The goal is to help people all the way from very, very beginning, you know, you sit down, you think one day I want to write a novel and you start to do it. We'd love to have you all the way through people who are voracious thriller and mystery absorbers and really want to write their first thriller all the way through people who have written several and are looking for some help with figuring out their next one.

[00:11:11] Samantha Skal: So it's going to be just an MTS focused group of people who are wildly inclusive, no jerks, no jerks. Very curious and we're really looking forward to having that out in the world. 

[00:11:23] Nicole Meier: That sounds really great. And I know you don't want to give away your secret sauce right now, but I do know you both bring something special and unique to your programs and that's the ideation of twists.

[00:11:33] Nicole Meier: So that's something that's really special to Shadows and Secrets, correct? 

[00:11:38] Samantha Skal: Yeah, it is. So in my work as a book coach and in my own writing in the MTS space, which I've been writing since I was a kiddo, like we all have, most of us, and reading the same, but I haven't really sat down and started to write a full blown thriller until right before the pandemic.

[00:11:53] Samantha Skal: And so it's been a wild ride for me over the last five years or so. And I have learned so much, mostly about how not to do it, but some of the things I've learned that are great takeaways are that mystery tellers and suspense are really just the villain's journey as experienced by the protagonist. And that really, really helped me turn everything on its head and approach things in a more logical way.

[00:12:16] Samantha Skal: My brain is very logical. I do have the wild muse that occasionally hits me, but it's not so consistent. So for me, being able to map things out and understand how to come at a story a different way so that all those clues, all those twists actually land was really, really fundamental to changing the way that I approached everything.

[00:12:33] Samantha Skal: And then the second thing I'll say about that is that twists are the reveal of the villain's truth. And so, when I first sat down to write a thriller, I didn't know who my villain was until I got to the climactic scene and was like, Oh, oh, it's you. Oh, interesting. And then I had to go back and change everything, which, that can work, and if it works for you, then fantastic.

[00:12:54] Samantha Skal: But for me, it meant a full blown rewrite, an overwrite of about 200, 000 words. It was awful. But I learned a lot about how not to do it. And one of those things is that when you know your villain from the out of the gate, before you even really start writing, you're going to have a much more successful, much more smooth path, which Carrie is where she jumps in is to guide people on the project management side of things.

[00:13:16] Samantha Skal: And I can personally attest, really get your butt in the chair and force you in a very kind, very kind way to finish your book. She has been a wonderful coach to me as well. So, personally attest. 

[00:13:29] Kerry Savage: Well, Sam is a gold star student because there's not anybody I know who can sit down and get their butt in the chair and do a revision in three months that she said to me she was going to do and with my project manager hat on said, are you sure that's a good idea?

[00:13:42] Kerry Savage: And lo and behold, she did. So I will never question her. Well, no, that's probably not true. But I know she can do it. So I know it can be done. But yes, in that same vein, I think I was listening to you talk, Sam, and thinking this is really how I came to apply project management to writing and coaching as well.

[00:14:00] Kerry Savage: I was so burned out on project management, I did not want to think about it when I quit to write a book. And two years and 145, 000 words of a terrible first draft later, I realized that all of that flailing and all of my denying that I knew that there was a better way to do it wasn't working for me.

[00:14:20] Kerry Savage: And actually it was, I think, one of our mentors amongst the three of us, Jenny Nash, who said, you have this project management background, you have these skills, why are you not leaning into them? And I think it was only at that point that I really could kind of say. Oh, no, I can come back to this and I can see how we can apply it to a book writing project.

[00:14:38] Kerry Savage: And so then I've sort of run with it since then and I think it can apply at any stage in the project. Like if you're at the very beginning stages. You're going to get the most out of it because you'll be the most efficient. But certainly if you're knee deep in the fifth revision, and you're not seeing a way to get out of that, project management can definitely still help you there.

[00:14:57] Kerry Savage: So that's my pitch for the least sexy thing about writing a book. 

[00:15:03] Samantha Skal: It's the part that matters. 

[00:15:05] Nicole Meier: Yeah. And two aha moments for me as a listener, and I know people tuning in right now are having aha moments too, is. What Sam was saying about how to approach writing a manuscript so it's strong from the get go and what you're saying, Carrie, about how to approach the process so it's strong and you don't have what I call all those hair pulling iterations on the back end, really for me listening to both of you, it's almost like, of course, why would I do it any other way?

[00:15:34] Nicole Meier: What you two bring to the table, and I can say this because I can gush about you guys, but What you two bring to the table really helps writers create a strong story and a strong writing process that I think is lacking from so many other, for lack of a better word, systems or approaches out there. So kudos to you guys for that.

[00:15:54] Nicole Meier: Oh, thanks. We love it. Come join us. So great. Speaking of working with mystery and thriller and suspense writers, and I know Carrie, you work with a lot of upmarket writers. I want to know from you, because I'm so curious on just a writer level and an editor level, what kinds of work is coming across your desk lately?

[00:16:16] Nicole Meier: Are you guys seeing a change or a shift anywhere? For me personally, I'm seeing smart stories. I'm seeing a lot more thoughtful work. So I'm curious what you guys would say to that question. 

[00:16:27] Samantha Skal: What I'm seeing is, this is kind of a dark thing to say, but a lot of people dealing with their personal trauma in a healthy way.

[00:16:36] Samantha Skal: Through writing thriller and mystery and suspense. So I'm getting across my desk a lot of people who are ready to face something that they haven't been ready to face in the past and they're using character development and plot and the aha moments, the emotional realizations throughout the story to kind of battle their own demons.

[00:16:56] Samantha Skal: And it's just been a trend like I don't know the last three or four months I've had like five or six of these come across my desk and they're beautiful, like heart wrenching deep stories about emotional growth and realization set in the confines of like a murder book. And it's amazing. It hits all the spots because that's what I love about thrillers.

[00:17:19] Samantha Skal: I love the action thrillers as much as the next person, but the ones that really get me are the ones where. Somebody is facing a horrible thing that hopefully none of us will ever have to face in real life. This is why we read Dillard's, is we're never gonna do that. Hopefully, God willing, whatever, but it just The emotional resonance that you can have from someone figuring out who they are when they get pushed into a very, very difficult spot I think is just an incredible opportunity for the genre.

[00:17:44] Samantha Skal: And I'm loving what I'm seeing in general about what's being published with these emotional like sub stories that are beneath the surface. And the aha moment is maybe like three lines of the book. You're not having somebody enable gaze, sorry to sort of, like, that's sort of how I think of literary. I'm so sorry.

[00:18:00] Samantha Skal: But like, you're not just sitting there being like, I'm angry and I'm gonna spend 15 pages talking about how sad I am about this thing that happened 25 years ago. It's like, oh, this thing happened and it broke me and here I am dealing with this now story present problem that's very scary. When everything comes to the very worst point, like there's a real life and death stake in the book, that's when I have the realization that I can do this.

[00:18:24] Samantha Skal: I am worthy. I am lovable. Whatever it is. And so as a coach, I'm just being uplifted a lot recently with these stories and it's amazing. And write more of those, please. People out there. 

[00:18:35] Nicole Meier: Yeah, that is such a good observation. And it's funny that you said that because I was just having a talk with an author last week and we were talking about a very popular rom com author who is known for her just very formulaic book fun, rom com books, but then she's starting to throw in personal trauma, that childhood trauma that someone has to get over, and then she goes right back to the fun rom commy.

[00:18:57] Nicole Meier: And I do think that that is a trend where people are opening up more, it's more discovery on the page, but it's more self discovery. And I think that that draws a reader in and connects them even further. 

[00:19:09] Samantha Skal: Totally. And it's like, the more specific you get, this is actually a direct quote from the show Nashville.

[00:19:13] Samantha Skal: So forgive me, I'm rewatching it right now. But one of the characters is talking about songwriting and she says, the more specific you get, the more resonant it is to a larger group of people. And so like broad statements like, Oh, I was hurt when I was 10 or whatever. And someone bullied me or not that that's nothing.

[00:19:30] Samantha Skal: It's horrible. We hope that never happens. But. The more specific you get with that kind of trauma on the page, the more readers you're going to suck in and make them feel like you are talking to them directly. And that's how you get that stickiness with books. And then of course, MTS is designed to manipulate the reader and pull them in and not let them go until the very, very end.

[00:19:49] Samantha Skal: But the combination of those two is just like chef's kiss for me. I adore it. 

[00:19:54] Nicole Meier: I love it too. And it just raises it to a whole new level. When writers are thinking about their work is like, okay, you used to know how to connect to readers. But now let's go even deeper and you can connect, like you said, on a more defined level, and who knew a nugget of truth would come outta Nashville.

[00:20:11] Samantha Skal: I love that show. . 

[00:20:14] Nicole Meier: Okay, Carrie, what's coming up for 

[00:20:15] Kerry Savage: you when I'm talking about these questions? That was such a wonderful answer, Sam. I don't know that I can talk. Oh, thanks. Do love that idea that you were saying, and I say this to my writers all the time. Don't be afraid to be so specific because I think there is a fear, especially with younger writers or newer writers, I should say, about trying to make things universal because they want to draw in these audiences.

[00:20:36] Kerry Savage: So that is definitely a question I know I ask, I know you guys ask as well about like, who exactly are you writing for? And that shouldn't be everyone because that's pretty much a guarantee. That you will write to no one really, like, you'll never grab the audience the way that you want to. But also don't be afraid to get specific in those emotional responses in what your character is going through because that is exactly what makes it more universal.

[00:20:58] Kerry Savage: That is what taps into things for people. So just wanted to put an emphasis on that because I love that answer so much. But honestly, mine is a little more tactical, which is probably no surprise since that's my brain. I think what I have been seeing is so interesting to me about the people that I've brought in in like the last six months or so is people are really interested in self publishing and they know that that's exactly the path that they want to take.

[00:21:23] Kerry Savage: They're not at all interested in going the traditional route, which I think is fascinating and I love. I think if that feels like the right path for you and you know that and you're ready for it, that's amazing. And I really am seeing that shift, especially on my writers who are literally a little bit younger than me, which is a lot more people now than it used to be.

[00:21:43] Kerry Savage: But I think that that's really encouraging. I think that taking that I don't want to see stigma, that's such a terrible word, but we've all read self published books that made me thought at least like, oh, we could have copy edited this a little bit more, maybe. So raising the bar on the level and these people are writing wonderful stories and they're amazing writers and they know what they're doing.

[00:22:03] Kerry Savage: And so I think that that's really exciting that they just have this vision for what they want their book to be and how they want it to be in the world. And I'm just here to help them execute on that and then get it out in the way that they want to without the agony can be trying to go the traditional route sometimes.

[00:22:19] Kerry Savage: So, 

[00:22:19] Nicole Meier: yeah, I'm so happy that you brought that up, Carrie, because this is something I've talked about on the podcast and obviously talked widely to writers and other editors and coaches out there. Is I strongly believe the trend is moving towards far more self published books, but books of quality. So you were talking about the stigma and you know, 10, 12 years ago when I was first writing my debut novel, the stigma was there because there weren't courses and coaches and classes and communities and webinars and all these great things to learn how to write a manuscript that works.

[00:22:52] Nicole Meier: But now there are so many resources, and that's why we're seeing a higher quality of work, a body of work come through self publishing, hybrid publishing, small press, all that good stuff. So I definitely second that. I was on a podcast with my publisher, and we were talking about the new generation is like take your own creative endeavor into your own hands.

[00:23:13] Nicole Meier: And I really see that coming as like a big wave. Do you feel that way too, Sam? 

[00:23:18] Samantha Skal: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm nodding. By the way, we're all nodding at each other. Absolutely agree. And it's so well observed to say that the coaching and the webinars and the free advice and the amazing plethora of craft books out there that we all kind of.

[00:23:33] Samantha Skal: have absorbed over the years. That didn't exist as much 10 years ago, 20 years ago. And you're so right that we are getting quality books that are self published. And one of my favorite clients, all of you are my favorites, but one of my favorite clients is self published and she controls her own vision and she's killing it.

[00:23:49] Samantha Skal: Her books are amazing. And I just think that self published does not mean what it used to. In fact, it to me indicates that someone has really taken. control and an understanding of what it looks like for them to go from start to finish and that's a lot of work. And so someone can pull that off and the book is great and it resonates with people and you find readers.

[00:24:12] Samantha Skal: It's, I mean, it's wonderful. Please do. 

[00:24:16] Nicole Meier: Good room for all of us. I love it. Okay, so speaking of writers, we know that it's overwhelming as a writer to think of all the things at once. So let's go back to just starting with a seed of an idea and maybe scratching out a few rough chapters in the beginning.

[00:24:33] Nicole Meier: I'd love to hear from both of you what your first steps would be for those writers, especially if they're going into mystery, thriller, and suspense. What would you say to them? 

[00:24:44] Samantha Skal: That's a good question. Carrie, do go first? I feel like project management is a great place to start with this. 

[00:24:48] Kerry Savage: How does that kind of leaned in a little bit?

[00:24:52] Kerry Savage: I think you'll find that we come from similar places in terms of how we are going to tell people to start because we're also trained by Jenny, as I mentioned, but I would say if you've started out and you've scratched down a couple of chapters, not everybody will want to hear this, but project manager carriers will tell you, stop scratching out those chapters for just a few moments, a few weeks, if you can manage it.

[00:25:14] Kerry Savage: And go back and answer a few key questions which are why do you want to write this novel because what you're going to do is you're going to turn that into a mission statement that you're going to put on your computer, you're going to stick it on the mirror in your bathroom, you're going to look at it every day, and when it gets really awful and hard, because it will, that's the thing that's going to help motivate you, So you're going to answer that question of why, you're going to answer the question what the point of your novel is, so that sort of universal one sentence sounds like a cliche.

[00:25:44] Kerry Savage: That is your point and that is the thing that you're going to want to use as your thread that gets carried through everything. And then also, as I previously mentioned, who are you writing it for? Who is your audience? Who's the person that you want to pick up and read this book? And answering those three questions is literally the first step in all my whole project management process.

[00:26:03] Kerry Savage: And I call that your novel strategy. It's an iteration of what I used to do when we would kick off these digital web redesigns and we would ask our clients, what's your strategy? Who are you speaking to? How are you going to make sure that all the work that we're just going to do over the course of the next year, and that's probably at least as long as you're going to be working on this novel, is going to be successful?

[00:26:23] Kerry Savage: Here's some ways that you can tell that you've done the work that you need to do is. By answering these questions, and then you can evaluate the work that you're going to do in your writing against how you've answered those questions. Doesn't have to be set in stone. It can change, and that's fine, so don't be afraid of it, but know that those three things are really important.

[00:26:43] Kerry Savage: So that would be my first step for someone as they're just kicking off. 

[00:26:47] Samantha Skal: Yeah, really good advice. I need to internalize this more often. 

[00:26:52] Nicole Meier: I was gonna say, Carrie, that just reminded me of one time years ago. I had a writer come to me, and I said, well, who are you writing this book for? And he said, anyone who's ever been interested in anything interesting.

[00:27:04] Nicole Meier: And I just thought, oh, buddy, you're gonna lose your way about page 150. Okay, Sam, what are you thinking right now? 

[00:27:13] Samantha Skal: So in MTS specifically, it depends on As you enter the story, I tend to think of a particular, it's almost like a still frame of a movie. And then I want to know, I start thinking about like, who's POV are we in?

[00:27:26] Samantha Skal: Are we the person who is hoping that this thing happens or hoping the police don't discover this thing? Are we the police? Are we the person who's on the ground like dying? Are we? A random passerby, and then I start to sort of formulate out from there, but the thing I would tell brand new writers to this genre is once you have your sort of core idea, think about who your villain is and why the person who has done the bad thing has done it.

[00:27:50] Samantha Skal: Because that motivation is so, so key for actually carrying a thriller all the way through to the end. And the thing that will be frustrating to you is that much of this thought work will not end up on the page until the climactic or final twist scene where the protagonist faces off against the villain and reveals the truth.

[00:28:08] Samantha Skal: You know, the villain reveals, well, this is why I did the thing. And the entire rest of the book is the protagonist making assumptions that are wrong about what's actually going on. They're thinking that people have done the thing that haven't done the thing. Maybe your villain has hired someone to do the thing.

[00:28:23] Samantha Skal: And so that's the person that the protagonist faces off against in the climactic scene. But if you don't have that initial villain thought, and it doesn't have to be like, we don't need a character Bible on this person. But, it's way easier if someone catches you doing a bad thing to just stop doing the bad thing or to run away or to turn yourself in or whatever.

[00:28:44] Samantha Skal: And so, knowing the answer to that is really, really key. And I'll also point out here that the villain doesn't actually have to be, you know, it can be the cops. I heard someone at a writing conference say that heists are actually just police procedurals in reverse. And I love that so much because it makes the villain is the cop and the people trying to do the thing are the protagonists, like the ones we're rooting for.

[00:29:06] Samantha Skal: So twist it around, think about who your protagonist is and what they want, and then your villain is going to be the opposite. But if you start with the villain, you're going to be in much better shape than you will be if you don't think about that at all. The caveat to that is that sometimes who your villain is can change, and that has happened to great success in a handful of client projects.

[00:29:25] Samantha Skal: It's happened to me, like I mentioned earlier, and that's okay, too. It just means that you have to go back and hopefully not change a whole lot, but because you've thought through, like, how someone could get away with this. Then, you're not starting from zero when you get to that stuck point, which usually happens right before the climactic scene because that's when everything gets explained.

[00:29:43] Samantha Skal: Just 

[00:29:44] Nicole Meier: FYI. I'm so glad you mentioned all of this because I see a lot of writers wanting to plot out their major plot points. But saying to me, but I don't know who the villain is and I don't want to know yet. I want to discover that when I get there. And for me, it makes me a little nervous because I think you may have to rewrite that whole first half of the book if you aren't sure about the villain.

[00:30:07] Samantha Skal: Yeah, really good point. Always have a villain in mind and know what someone is doing. That person may well end up being somebody that has been hired or has been tricked into or manipulated into or some other way where there's somebody else kind of behind the curtain pulling the strings. And so you can have a villain and you can get to like, you know, climactic scene is where you have the story question be answered in thrillers.

[00:30:31] Samantha Skal: So like, who did the bad thing? Who did the bad thing could actually be this fake villain, this person who's not actually the person that they need to go up against. 

[00:30:38] Nicole Meier: Yeah. 

[00:30:38] Samantha Skal: But maybe they don't even know it. Maybe you get to that climactic scene and you face off and it's like, oh, wait, this doesn't make any sense about this motivation.

[00:30:46] Samantha Skal: And then they both question like, well, wait, who could have done this thing over here? And that's what leads you into that final twist where the protagonist actually faces off against the person who's truly behind the scenes. But you as the writer can get to that point and not know who that true person is and then discover it that way.

[00:31:03] Samantha Skal: I don't recommend that because sometimes you may end up with Something that you end up having to rewrite everything, but that can happen, and sometimes it can work really well. Like, I had a client come to me with a thriller that was basically written, and it just, it didn't have, like, the oomph, the twistiness wasn't right there.

[00:31:20] Samantha Skal: Like, we all predicted who the villain was from the very beginning, and so we tried changing clues around, and we tried doing all this other stuff. And then we realized that this person was being controlled by this other person who was already on the page, already written, and all we had to do was change like three sentences and then rewrite like the last 10 percent of the book.

[00:31:40] Samantha Skal: And it's a fantastic story. So yeah, that's great. Yeah. It doesn't always have to be a full rewrite. Sometimes we can look at the characters on the page and think about the motivations that always come down to motivation. Like why would somebody be doing these bad things? Why wouldn't they just give up?

[00:31:56] Nicole Meier: Yeah. No, I love that you explain it that way. I was thinking of Harry Potter the whole time you were saying that because in the first book he's battling the troll in the school and we think that's the villain, but it's not. Totally. Kind of learn about Voldemort as time goes on. So yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:32:12] Nicole Meier: I think that's a great way of saying it. I'm willing to bet that the listeners who are thinking about really either writing forward or enhancing their. Mystery, thriller, suspense are taking notes because I would be if I was listening. But let's move on to what do you guys think about people writing alone and people writing in groups?

[00:32:35] Nicole Meier: I always talk about community is such a big thing and working with a coach is amazing or an editor is amazing. But what are your thoughts on writing in community? 

[00:32:43] Kerry Savage: For me, community is huge. Often how I get things done and I feel a little odd saying this as a project manager because I do have everything mapped out.

[00:32:52] Kerry Savage: I have project plans for everything as you might imagine. But I'm also one of those people that will show up for others before I show up for myself. And so knowing that I have a community of people, I do have someone who I tell them what my writing goals are going to be for the week. I will hop on to co writing sessions with people sometimes and say, here's what I want to get done today.

[00:33:13] Kerry Savage: That is how I'm motivated. And so I think having that community piece. If you are that kind of person, a lot of us writers are, I think. Having that is so, so valuable because it's just another piece of accountability, and accountability for writers is huge. Because this is a really, really hard thing that we do, and it's so much easier to check our email or to get lost in a rabbit hole of some research of this thing that we absolutely have to know before we can write forward.

[00:33:40] Kerry Savage: So, we'll keep you off the internet and in Scrivener or Word or wherever you're working. I think it's really helpful too because this is such a solitary activity. Nobody else can write your book for you to be able to have that support of somebody out there. It doesn't have to be in person. I think that was maybe the only good thing to come out of the pandemic is we all realized like how much we can be in community together virtually.

[00:34:04] Kerry Savage: That's really helpful. So I'm a huge fan and I think that is what we're going to be aiming to create with our Shadows membership is a community of like minded people who are all just nerding out about mystery, thriller, and suspense and can understand the unique challenges that come with writing in that genre.

[00:34:21] Kerry Savage: So, yeah, big, big, big fan of community, if you can't tell. 

[00:34:26] Samantha Skal: Yeah, and for me, I mean, exactly the same, that was very well said, Keri, with the extension being for me that I think conferences are a fantastic place to go and, Find your community. Obviously, I'm a little biased that Tolar Fest is the best because I've run it with an amazing team, but if you can swing it and it's a possibility for you going to conferences in person and getting that face to face time, as Carrie said, that's the one thing that came out of the pandemic that was great and I am so grateful for the friendships and the connections I made over Zoom during that time and I continue them to this day.

[00:35:00] Samantha Skal: Obviously, you two are two of those people. But getting that one on one time where just hanging out with people and finding your people that love the same things you do. Writers, particularly MTS writers, like we tend to be sort of siloed because we write about things that scare a lot of people. And so my friends adore me, my spouse adores me, everyone is super supportive, they all think I'm a little bit.

[00:35:24] Samantha Skal: You know, just a little bit not normal in the things that I write about and I choose to write about. And not all of them want to read what I am writing because they don't like to be scared. And so finding your people that do love the exact same thing that you do, I think is so, so important. And the people that I've met at Thriller Fest, particularly, there's a number of other writing conferences in that space.

[00:35:45] Samantha Skal: They're incredible people. We like to joke that crime writers have Sort of worked everything out on the page. And so we're very, very kind and friendly and real life. I love it It's just very welcoming community. Like very just hey, you're standing alone. Come join us Tell us about what's your favorite serial killer in the history of serial killers like conversations like that And also being able to text someone and just bounce ideas off of them I have a I don't know three critique groups at this point where we either read to each other or it's just sort of a support group for writing or whatever it is, but the more people in your life that you can find that resonate with you on the writing level, the better off you're going to be because these kinds of friendships get very deep very quickly because we're burying our souls on the page and it's a particular kind of vulnerability to share your writing with somebody.

[00:36:33] Samantha Skal: And I often end up sharing my writing with my critique group before anybody else has even seen or heard it, just because I feel so safe with them. And I know that they're not going to be like, this is terrible or whatever. They might be like, Oh, you know, like I'm taking a turn and maybe we should bring it back over here.

[00:36:50] Samantha Skal: But mostly it's just like, Wow, that was awesome. Keep going. And I need that. I'm a compliment person just as much as the next person. And I like hearing that I'm doing well. So, 

[00:37:01] Kerry Savage: yeah, I want to dip in and say real quick to as an attendee of Thriller Fest for the past two years, it is absolutely amazing.

[00:37:08] Kerry Savage: Everything that Sam said is true. And a little bit biased because she's my business partner. Yes. But I went to the first one on your invitation, not knowing what to expect and thinking as an introvert, oh boy, how is this going to go? And it's the most delightful group of people. Everybody's super friendly.

[00:37:24] Kerry Savage: And yes, we are talking about some really dark stuff, but who else to talk about dark stuff with? And like the kindest. friendliest group of people that you will find. So big, big thumbs up for Thriller Fest from this attendee. 

[00:37:38] Nicole Meier: Yeah, that's a great segue. First, I just love what you both had to say about community.

[00:37:42] Nicole Meier: I mean, it really is poignant and true. I can say that as a writer too. But this is a good segue. Let's talk about the conferences because a lot of people out there aren't familiar with all the conferences available to them, whether that's in person or virtual. So talk about what you're either volunteering for or working for and what kind of conferences those are.

[00:38:01] Nicole Meier: And can you just say what time of year they are? Oh, sure. 

[00:38:03] Samantha Skal: So Spiller Fest happens in June in New York every year. It does happen in New York, so it means it's expensive. It's definitely an investment in your time and what you're going for, but it's the one conference that I'll never miss. And that's not just because I am on staff for it.

[00:38:18] Samantha Skal: Even just as an attendee, I'll never, ever miss it. I just think that the connections and the access to We don't have a green room, so famous authors are just wandering around. They're in the bar. They're in sessions. They're in the hallway. And it is perfectly acceptable to just go up to somebody and tell them how much you love their books.

[00:38:35] Samantha Skal: I've met so many of my literary heroes, and I'm friends with them now. Like they know my name. And that's just incredible. Voucher Con is another one. That's a mystery focused conference that happens around Labor Day every year, and the city switched for that one. But mostly I would tell you to Google local conferences to like there's this Pacific Northwest focused one in Edmonds, which is just north of Seattle called Right on the Sound.

[00:39:00] Samantha Skal: One of my favorites, it's quite small, but it is so fun. And there's so many writers just, and I'm not saying that because I'm in the Pacific Northwest. It's just there's writers everywhere, and you will be shocked at how many people you find that are in your community. There's even smaller groups, there's little retreats, there's online retreats, there's webinars that you can attend, there's just all kinds of places, depending on the amount of money you want to put out and the amount of time you have, that you can participate in.

[00:39:28] Samantha Skal: Memberships, retreats like Shadows, they're all over the place. And so it's mostly about finding the people that resonate with your genre and what you're writing. And the more specific you get, the better off you're going to be in finding those people. 

[00:39:42] Nicole Meier: Love it. And by the way, I love how you say, Oh, I'm on staff for Thriller Fest.

[00:39:46] Nicole Meier: You're the executive director. I mean, let's just acknowledge that. 

[00:39:51] Samantha Skal: Thank you. We have a fantastic team, though. I could not do it by myself. 

[00:39:56] Nicole Meier: I love everything you said, and I want to hear your thoughts too, Carrie, but I always tell people, the moment I walked into my first conference, which was actually in San Francisco, and there was that lobby.

[00:40:08] Nicole Meier: Full of writers, editors, agents, publishers. I finally said to myself, I found my people. It was the best feeling in the world. Okay, Carrie, I want to hear about, because I know you volunteer for some amazing conferences as well. My sort of 

[00:40:22] Kerry Savage: number one outside of Thriller Fest is, I'm very lucky to live right outside Boston.

[00:40:27] Kerry Savage: We have a wonderful writing nonprofit called Grub Street. 25 years at this point, I think. It went online for a couple of years during COVID, but it is back in person now, it was this past year. And I had been an attendee since 2017, and had that exact same experience of walking into the lobby for the first time and just being like, Oh, I'm home.

[00:40:49] Kerry Savage: Like, this is Yes. Um, you know, and then you go to your first keynote and there's this amazing author and they make you laugh and cry and it's just, you come away exhausted, but in the best way of just feeling so inspired and full of ideas and just wonderful energy. But yes, last year I presented at Muse about project management.

[00:41:08] Kerry Savage: That was really exciting and I will certainly be. putting in something I don't know exactly what yet, but I'll definitely want to do it again, and I will be there one way or another for sure. And then WFWA, I believe they're going to do a conference, I hope every other year. Last year they had their first one, it was their 10th anniversary.

[00:41:27] Kerry Savage: And as a volunteer, I'm urging people with the power to make those decisions because that's certainly not me to do another one. I think they decided every other year, but they also have great retreats that they do every year as well. So 

[00:41:40] Nicole Meier: yeah, that's Women's Fiction Writers Association for anybody who isn't familiar.

[00:41:44] Nicole Meier: Yeah. 

[00:41:45] Samantha Skal: Yeah. What a great conference that was. That's where Shadows was born. Actually, that was where Carrie and I decided to make it happen. I remember. I was there at the bar at the end. Yes, you were. Can I plug another couple of mystery conferences I just thought of? Yes. Okay. So Hamptons Who Done It is a new one that's been in the last couple of years.

[00:42:02] Samantha Skal: I believe, I'm not even going to try to name what time of year it is, but you can Google that. Icelandic Noir happens in Reykjavik every year. Wow. Bloody Scotland is in Scotland. I've not been to Icelandic Noir or Hamptons. Or Bloody Scotland, yeah, but they're on my list. So the point is, you can blend it with some travel too if that's in the cards for you.

[00:42:21] Samantha Skal: It's just look up whatever genre you're looking for and then conference or retreat or whatever and see what pops up. 

[00:42:28] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I would tell listeners plan ahead. I do this for myself. I'm sure you guys do this. I'm already planning 25, 26, like, where am I going to go? Because it really takes precedent knowing, okay, this is my goal.

[00:42:41] Nicole Meier: These are my people that I want to connect with. These are the things I want to learn. These are the places I want to visit. It's really fun to do and yeah, it costs money but if you plan well ahead and you sort of save money or just prepare, it really makes it possible. So I really want to encourage listeners to think about also Shadows and Secrets because I know you guys are going to be offering more things for that.

[00:43:04] Nicole Meier: Can you share with everybody where they can find you because I think that would be really helpful. 

[00:43:09] Samantha Skal: Oh, sure. So I'll see if I can get the website right. You know, Carrie and I keep screwing this up. It's shadowsandsecretsretreats. com. My website is samanthaskal. com, S K A L. And SolarFest is solarfest. com.

[00:43:22] Kerry Savage: And I'm carysavage. com, as well as shadowsandsecretsretreats. com. 

[00:43:28] Nicole Meier: Great. So if somebody wanted to think about your membership, would they still go on shadowsandsecretsretreat. com? 

[00:43:33] Samantha Skal: Yeah, they would go to shadowsandsecretsfortreats. com. I think we actually own both URLs. So whether you go to one or the other, it'll point to it.

[00:43:39] Samantha Skal: But yes, you just get on our email list. We are in the nascent planning stages for this. There's a lot that we need to make happen before this launches, but the email list is going to be where we're going to be announcing everything and that's where you'll learn about our free craft webinars, which are going to continue through the end of 2024.

[00:43:55] Samantha Skal: You'll also get links to all the webinars that have happened in 2024 already. Carrie and I have a grand time doing these, so please join us. And we'd love to hear from you. The more people in this space that we can connect with, the happier we are. Not just from a, like, business planning perspective, but just because we love connecting with writers who write in this space.

[00:44:14] Samantha Skal: You're all our people. 

[00:44:16] Nicole Meier: Well said. Okay, so listeners, I really encourage you to take advantage of those free webinars. They are amazing and chock full of things. If I was a writer in this genre, I would definitely be attending every single one. I will share everything in the link in the show notes, but listeners, I really encourage you to check out everything they're offering because they Building community and knowing just all the basics and beyond of how to write that strong manuscript and have that strong writing process is just worth its weight in gold.

[00:44:44] Nicole Meier: So thank you both so much for being here. I loved our chat and I hope, well actually I know I'll see you both in person because we're going a little retreat together in 2025. 

[00:44:54] Samantha Skal: We sure are. Thank you so much for having us, Nicole. This was wonderful. 

[00:44:58] Nicole Meier: So fun. My pleasure, you guys. Thanks so much. And listeners, tune in next time.

[00:45:02] Nicole Meier: Thank you.

[00:45:08] Nicole Meier: If you want to check out my coaching programs for fiction writers, visit NicoleMeier. com. That's M E I E R. And if you like this episode, I'd love you to take a minute to leave a rating and review for this podcast. This will help more writers like you to discover the show. and to get going on their writing journey.

[00:45:28] Nicole Meier: Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, happy writing, everyone.