50. What It's Like to Be An Author in Today's Market with Tracey Lange & Kerry Chaput

I'm pulling back the curtain in today's episode and talking about what it's really like to be an author in today's market. With me, are two of my author friends to help with a healthy and honest discussion around the business of being an author. Tracey Lange and Kerry Chaput join me to discuss:

• Balancing writing time and publishing responsibilities
• Working on a deadline
• The benefits of writing groups
• Feedback and revisions
• The journey of draft to publication
• The ever-changing market

You can find more on Tracey Lange here.

You can find more on Kerry Chaput here.

For more on Nicole: Website | Books | Substack

Transcript

STEPS TO STORY EP 50 - What it's like to be an author in today's market with Tracey Lange and Kerry Chaput

[00:00:00] Nicole Meier: Hey, Steps to Story listeners, today is a good one and it's not to be missed. That's because I'm pulling back the curtain and talking about what it's really like to be an author in today's market. And with me are two of my author friends to help with a healthy and honest discussion. Let's get into who they are right now.

[00:00:18] Nicole Meier: First, we have Kerry Chaput. She is a multi award winning historical fiction author who writes of daring women with loads of adventure and a splash of magic. Born in California, she now calls the Pacific Northwest home, where she spends her days hitting the trails, chasing historical rabbit holes, and feeding her addiction to espresso and doggy cuddles.

[00:00:39] Nicole Meier: I'm also joined by Tracey Lange. Tracy was born and raised in New York City before heading west to graduate from the University of New Mexico with a degree in psychology. After owning and operating a behavioral health care company with her husband for 15 years, she completed the Stanford University Novel Writing Program while working on her first novel.

[00:00:59] Nicole Meier: Tracey currently lives in Bend, Oregon with her husband, two sons, and beloved German Shepherd. All right, listeners, grab a favorite drink and settle on in because this is a discussion that's worth listening to.

[00:01:18] Nicole Meier: Welcome to Steps to Story. This season, I'm focusing on helping you grow as a writer and as an author. I'm Nicole Meyer, multi published author and certified book coach, here to guide you on strengthening your story and getting it out into the world. This season, we'll explore ways to overcome the challenges that hold writers back, from breaking through creative blocks to fine tuning your story structure and navigating the publishing world with confidence.

[00:01:46] Nicole Meier: Wherever you are in your journey, consider this your supportive space to find clarity, direction, and encouragement. Let's take the next step in your story together.

[00:02:01] Nicole Meier: Okay, welcome listeners. Today is especially fun for me because we are having a kind of behind the scenes discussion with two of my author friends who I adore because I love their work and I love them as human beings. So, welcome Tracy and welcome Carrie. Hi. Hi guys. Okay. So today we are going to talk about something I think that listeners would love to hear is what is it really like to be an author these days?

[00:02:27] Nicole Meier: And I want to cover kind of a broad range of questions, but we see a lot of the shiny on social media. We see a lot of the wins. We don't necessarily see a lot of the struggles and we don't really get to see the day to day of authors. Some authors are good at sharing that, but really, I think it's not something that's talked about as the business of being an author.

[00:02:48] Nicole Meier: So I would love to hear from each of you. But first of all, before we dive into our questions, I want to congratulate both of you because you have multiple titles out there, but you both have some celebrations. And Tracy's book, What Happened to the McCrays, just came out on January 14th. So congrats, Tracy.

[00:03:06] Nicole Meier: Thank you. And Carrie, your next title, Wild as the Stars, comes out June 26th, so congrats to you, Carrie. Thanks. Okay, so first, I think that you guys could just say a little hello and just remind the readers of the genre you write and how many books you have out there. So Tracy, I'm going to have you go first.

[00:03:27] Tracey Lange: Okay. I think what I write is usually categorized as contemporary fiction or family drama. Okay. Okay. And my third book is the one that came out last week. And I have two others out there over the last few years. And they all took kind of focus on family dynamics and relationships. Messy people. . 

[00:03:49] Nicole Meier: Yeah.

[00:03:50] Nicole Meier: Which I love. The beautiful, messy, right, . Yes, exactly. Yeah. Okay. I love all of your books as you know that. And Carrie, I love all of yours too. Can you talk about what genre you write and how many books you have out there? You have a lot out there too. 

[00:04:04] Kerry Chaput: While Does The Stars will be my seventh book that I will have published and I read historical fiction always about women's history.

[00:04:14] Kerry Chaput: I'm a total history nerd and I really like focusing on the stories of women who thrived in history instead of focusing on a lot of the persecution of women or the pain of women. I really like talking about those really brave stories we don't often hear about. 

[00:04:30] Nicole Meier: Yeah. Which I love. It's focusing on the forgotten and also focusing on the powerful forces behind a lot of big movements.

[00:04:38] Nicole Meier: Yeah. Okay. Very cool, you guys. so much. So let's jump right into it. Let's really talk about your life as an author, business of being an author. So I want both of you to kind of share what does a typical writing day look like for you as an author, and how do you balance writing with the business side of things?

[00:04:58] Nicole Meier: We've talked about this a lot. It's not just about being an artist these days, it's also about putting your entrepreneurial hat on and you're in the business of being an author. So I'm just going to go in order again, Tracy, do you have some thoughts around that? Yeah, Abby, 

[00:05:13] Tracey Lange: as far as kind of a typical writing day, normally when I'm in the middle of a project, I get up, it's the first thing I do for two, three hours or so.

[00:05:24] Tracey Lange: And then I take a break a step away of some kind just to sort of take care of the rest of life, whatever I need to do, workout is always helpful. I feel like that's where I get a lot of my, I feel like in the morning I pose a lot of questions for myself during that workout. Often I come up with some of the answers.

[00:05:43] Tracey Lange: And I do normally come back to it in the afternoon for another couple few hours and it adds and flows a little from the thick of it. I'll spend all day there sometimes and my husband will be like, where are you? But that's more typical is kind of first thing in the morning for a little bit and then come back to it in the afternoon.

[00:06:04] Nicole Meier: I love how you frame that. You said the morning is where you pose questions for yourself. And I've never thought of it that way. Normally I get up and journal and kind of say, what are my goals for the scene? Or what's my goal for the story? But I think that's a much more thoughtful approach is to think about what are the questions I want to pose?

[00:06:21] Tracey Lange: Yeah. It's not like I sort of designed that, but I come back to it in the morning, I'll pick up where I left off and get some done and then I sort of held a bit of a wall as far as okay, what's coming next, I gotta figure out how to get from A to B and when I step away, whether it's running errands or taking a walk or working out, often just stepping away can help the answers kind of, I come up with some possibilities at least.

[00:06:46] Nicole Meier: That sounds like a really good balance. I like that. Okay, Kari, let's talk about a typical writing day in your world. 

[00:06:53] Kerry Chaput: Well, I have a full time job, so I kind of have to be very structured. Same as Tracy, I start early and just, that's really my time. That's my writing time. I start between 4. in the morning, and I usually get two hours, a pretty solid time in, sometimes more if it's a weekend or my kids aren't at school.

[00:07:14] Kerry Chaput: And I really protect that time because it's the only creative time that I had. It's my only time during the day that is mine. It's not my employers, my family's, my kids. And so I protect that and I only use it for writing and editing, nothing else. If I'm working on a newsletter or planning social media or anything, that all goes in the afternoon.

[00:07:35] Kerry Chaput: That's when I'm done with my work day or on a lunch break. All the business side of things is really in the day when I don't have the mental space to really dive into the emotional side of what writing is for me. And I really love that. I love having that time in the morning when it's dark and quiet and it's just me and my manuscript.

[00:07:56] Nicole Meier: Okay. I relate to that. And I'm so happy you brought up that point, Carrie, because all three of us have worked with publishers and publicists and all the things, and there is a business side. So Tracy, are you kind of the same where you deal with the business side? Maybe if your publisher, your editor has sent you a note or you have to do something in terms of promoting your latest title, do you also kind of parse that out and do it a different time of the day or does it all come together?

[00:08:22] Nicole Meier: Yeah. Absolutely. 

[00:08:23] Tracey Lange: Usually I guess I do try to save that morning time to just focus on the writing. And then when I come back, I'll answer some emails or whatever it might be, Q and A's or and certainly I do some podcasts or interview phone calls or whatever it might be. And those, I just sort of schedule as I need to.

[00:08:44] Tracey Lange: So I try to save that morning time, which usually works because we're on the West Coast and often these things are happening on the East Coast. And so I take that time for myself and I go back to it later on and take care of some business stuff. 

[00:08:57] Nicole Meier: Yeah. What you guys are saying is very relatable and it makes sense because for me, if I have other voices, whether it's a text message, email, the news, anything that comes in, It dilutes my creative thought and it really pulls me off track.

[00:09:15] Nicole Meier: So I'm the same. I have to kind of unplug everything and not know what's happening outside of my little writing space. Otherwise, I feel those voices and those energies coming in affects my work. Now you guys are nodding. Yeah. Yep. I 

[00:09:31] Tracey Lange: thought it was good. It sounds like I'm not as good as both of you as sort of shutting the world off.

[00:09:37] Tracey Lange: I'll get them text messages. And I think I've talked with Carrie about this a little bit, that in some ways, when you have less time and you have to make the most of it, I think you're more efficient. Yeah. I know when I have a lot going on and a lot to get done, I find that I am more efficient. I may, I spend less time procrastinating.

[00:09:58] Tracey Lange: So It's not all bad to have that limited time. I think sometimes. 

[00:10:02] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I'd agree with that. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. And also working on a deadline. It just gives you that really hyper focused goal. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about deadlines because I think that's also something listeners want to know about.

[00:10:17] Nicole Meier: They've probably heard some authors say, I have this wonderful deadline of A whole year to make changes and then some people like me when I wrote for Amazon, I had two weeks over Christmas to make changes. So what are deadlines like for you guys now that you're working with publishers? 

[00:10:34] Tracey Lange: I have to say I don't have a lot of deadlines except for the ones I try to set for myself really.

[00:10:40] Tracey Lange: And it's so different. I've had the opportunity now to talk to lots of published authors. Some people have been doing it a lot longer than I have. And sometimes they have that kind of crazy deadline, which is really tough, you know, to pump out a first draft in a couple of months. And again, it forces you to be efficient, but I'm lucky that I don't really have tight deadlines like that.

[00:11:04] Tracey Lange: Certainly when it comes to copy edits, maybe later on in the process, but I feel like my publisher's fairly generous, so I appreciate that. So yeah, I have to say, I personally don't have a lot of deadlines, but I also know that I tend to be on it. And so I don't think they felt the need to set many deadlines for me.

[00:11:23] Tracey Lange: Everybody's journey is different and I've heard a lot of similar to yours as far as really short turnaround times. Yeah. 

[00:11:29] Nicole Meier: Okay. So Carrie, moving on to you, you've worked with different publishers, not just one. So can you kind of share the deadline world that you've come in? Yeah. 

[00:11:39] Kerry Chaput: My experience is a little different than Tracy's.

[00:11:42] Kerry Chaput: I was realizing as we're talking, I have three books coming out in the next 12 months. Yeah. Holy cow. From different publishers. And when I say that out loud, it sounds insane. Crazy. I'm like, what am I doing? Yeah. It's manageable. Like both of my publishers have set very realistic guidelines and it's edits back and forth.

[00:12:04] Kerry Chaput: It's different drafts. And so they require different times. So it's manageable. But when I pile them all on top of each other, I don't know, I really have to be, I have It's hard for me to do days and days and days and days of line edits. That's kind of a little soul sucking for me, if I'm being honest. It has to get done, and you love to start seeing things shaped.

[00:12:27] Kerry Chaput: In a nice way on the line level, it's important, but I really have to put on my focus of this is just something that has to get done. If you want the book to be what it needs to be, I have to put my head down and just do it. And then for the first time in seven months this week, I've been able to kind of dip back to my work in progress and get reacquainted with it.

[00:12:45] Kerry Chaput: It's a very different side of my brain that I have to work on. 

[00:12:48] Nicole Meier: Yeah, you really have to be focused and actually disciplined in that regard. 

[00:12:54] Kerry Chaput: Yeah, it's seven days a week for me. Every morning, seven days a week. I can't really take a day off right now. I normally can, but this is just a kind of crazy year the way it all worked out.

[00:13:03] Nicole Meier: Yeah, three books. Holy cow. While we're talking about this, it has me thinking about being in the revision process, but also being in the process of getting feedback. And I know all three of us have. We've had that process where we are seeking feedback, whether it's from a group, a critique group, a writing group, beta readers, and or agents and editors, but What also comes along with that is reading other people's pages because we want to be reciprocal and we want to be also supporting our fellow writers.

[00:13:38] Nicole Meier: So I would love for you guys to talk about what does that look like when you already have your draft, probably pushed to the best of your ability, then you're ready to get feedback from all those people I just mentioned. How does it look like in your day in your writing life when you are say, okay, I'm going to send my work out for feedback, but I'm also going to be giving feedback at the same time.

[00:13:56] Nicole Meier: Can you guys talk about that? Trace, I know you have a great group. 

[00:13:59] Tracey Lange: Yeah, I've had a pretty steady group that I've worked with now for six years or so. It's all Zoom because we're kind of spread across the country. But they actually read my stories as I build them. So they read first draft material, and then they read the later draft material.

[00:14:18] Tracey Lange: And we meet generally weekly. And then I do have a few readers, because it certainly helps to get fresh eyes. Once I've done a draft and another revision, and I want to, okay, someone who doesn't know anything to take a look. So I kind of have that next level reader as well. And yes, I absolutely reciprocate and I love to support other writers, but I feel like I learned so much by doing that as well.

[00:14:47] Tracey Lange: And the people I work with, we all write different genres. There's this guy writes thriller, someone writes young adult. It doesn't matter. We are able to help each other improve our work. I think that is helpful. It brings different strengths to the group. So yeah, I get so much out of reading other people's work and helping them try to get where they want to go as well as what they offer me.

[00:15:10] Tracey Lange: So that sort of feedback process is kind of ongoing for me, even while I'm building that draft. And then it gets to the point where I'm ready to send it to my agent who always has helpful thoughts and helps me make it better. So, yeah, I get lots of feedback along the way. 

[00:15:26] Nicole Meier: I'm glad you touched on how you're learning from other writers in your group.

[00:15:30] Nicole Meier: And these are trusted writers, right? So, you're not just willy nilly gathering new, new groups to read. You know, you guys have built this level of trust over six years, which is a You 

[00:15:39] Tracey Lange: do. You gotta find new people. Yeah. 

[00:15:41] Nicole Meier: Yeah. 

[00:15:42] Tracey Lange: For sure. 

[00:15:43] Nicole Meier: So, the reason I love the fact that you have this group and that you guys are constantly supporting each other, trading work, learning from each other, encouraging each other, suggesting things.

[00:15:54] Nicole Meier: is because we don't want to work in a silo. We don't want to work in isolation. And I'm constantly trying to remind writers, find that community. And community is not just about cheerleading. Community is about learning from each other. And I think that's one thing that's overlooked quite a bit because we get so buried in the work.

[00:16:11] Nicole Meier: And I got to get so many word count down today and get the pages out and sent out is we forget about the learning part from others. And that is a crucial part of writing community. 

[00:16:23] Tracey Lange: Yeah, I don't know how people do it. Otherwise, frankly, I need that. And also we just lose perspective on our, you know, one day we love it.

[00:16:32] Tracey Lange: Yeah. The next day we're like, no one's going to care about, you know, you just kind of need like a steadying force there. And that's what those guys are for me. 

[00:16:40] Nicole Meier: Steadying force. I love that phrase. That's great. Okay, and Carrie, you also have some really great writers who give you feedback and I know you've worked with other people too.

[00:16:50] Nicole Meier: Can you kind of talk about that? I do 

[00:16:53] Kerry Chaput: have just lovely, amazing critique partners. I have several long term critique partners that we're just constantly exchanging pages. I don't think I'm ever really without a project that I am reading for someone else. It's rare that I don't. have something like that going on.

[00:17:10] Kerry Chaput: I love doing it. Like Tracy said, you find your people and you find the people that respect the kind of story that you're trying to write and work with you within that. And it's, it's a chemistry thing. And sometimes it takes a little while to find those people. But when you do, it is just the best feeling to have people behind you helping push towards whatever that goal is of yours.

[00:17:31] Kerry Chaput: And they can really envision the kind of story you're trying to write. They show you a side that you can't see. They show you a perspective that there's just no way that I can find myself when I'm knee deep in these words. And I'm a little different than Tracy in that I have tried in the past to show my work as I go along.

[00:17:50] Kerry Chaput: It does not work for me because my rough drafts are really quite messy. I write really fast, like four months for my rough draft because I just have to get it out. And so it's all over the place and I have to go back and clean it up before it really makes any sense to me. Before I am ready to get feedback.

[00:18:06] Kerry Chaput: And so I tend to not exchange pages until I have a fairly clean rough draft. And that works well for me and my critique pointers kind of work the same way. Every now and then we'll exchange an opening chapter and go, What are you saying? Does this work? What are we missing? But for the most part, we are exchanging finished pages.

[00:18:26] Kerry Chaput: Which are not finished. They are finished for the time. Yeah. It's never 

[00:18:30] Nicole Meier: finished. Never finished. It's never finished. That's right. Carrie, do you give them, let's say you have a brand new draft of a book that they haven't seen yet, do you give them a summary first before they get into pages? Any kind of a summary?

[00:18:43] Nicole Meier: quick premise or synopsis so they know what they're getting into? It depends 

[00:18:48] Kerry Chaput: if I have that 

[00:18:48] Nicole Meier: or 

[00:18:48] Kerry Chaput: not. Okay. If it's still pretty messy in my head, I might not. But I feel like I have such a long standing relationship with them that I just sort of let them dive into it as a reader and give me their feedback as they go along.

[00:19:02] Kerry Chaput: Because that's kind of the experience that I want. I want to know, opening pages, just what do you think? What's your initial reaction? And then leaving those track changes. to really let that person in on what you're thinking and feeling as you're reading it. I really like that process. And yeah, it's worked really well for my critique partners and I to do that.

[00:19:22] Nicole Meier: Yeah, that's great. And I love that you brought up the idea of chemistry just as we would want an agent we have chemistry with. an editor or publisher we have chemistry with. So I know listeners out there going, this all sounds amazing, but I have no clue how to find a writing partner. Right. So can you guys share how you found your writing partners?

[00:19:41] Nicole Meier: I'll share mine first as I am part of the WFWA, Women's Fiction Writers Association, and that for me in my early days was a great way to jump on and say, hey, I've got 50 pages, I've got 100 pages, loved trade with somebody and then kind of find. Your people from there. I didn't find the right people right away, but after trial and error, you kind of land where, like Carrie said, you have chemistry.

[00:20:04] Nicole Meier: So Tracy, you're nodding. Can you kind of share how you found your people? 

[00:20:09] Tracey Lange: I found my people through the writing program I did. In 2017 to 2019, I did a two year novel writing program through Stanford University. It was all come out and that's where I found my core writers group. And like you, there were a couple people I sort of changed pages with and it just didn't quite gist.

[00:20:32] Tracey Lange: You were talking earlier, Carrie, about you need to offer feedback with the author's intention in mind. Yeah. And this guy worked with the rights thrillers, it's going to be a different kind of feedback than I'm looking for with a lot of my work. So I just think you have to always bear that in mind and yeah, you got to find the right people.

[00:20:50] Tracey Lange: So it took a little bit, but that's really where I found my group. And again, we're kind of spread out all over the country, but yeah. 

[00:20:58] Kerry Chaput: And Nicole, I was same as you, I, my first group was through WFWA, and we're still friends, we still Zoom and meet, we don't really exchange pages all that often because we all kind of went in different directions.

[00:21:08] Kerry Chaput: And the other thing is sometimes people's journey with writing changes. Sometimes people just can't emotionally handle it and they take time off or whatever the case may be. And so it has to be fluid. And I also have. a group that, again, we don't really write together anymore, but it was through the Shit No One Tells You About Writing podcast.

[00:21:32] Kerry Chaput: They actually connected people, and there was a group of us in Pacific Northwest that they put together. And again, it kind of fell apart, but one writer in particular, her and I hit it off really well, and she has amazing feedback. We still, we just emailed yesterday talking about exchanging pages, so that still goes on.

[00:21:48] Kerry Chaput: But ironically, The writers that I have become the closest to and have the best critique partner relationship with, found on Instagram. We just connected through that and created a friendship outside of that and that's been really amazing. 

[00:22:04] Nicole Meier: Yeah. Okay. So cool. And I'm so happy we talked about the variety.

[00:22:08] Nicole Meier: So for listeners out there, you can join a writer's association, you can follow a program that offers kind of like a great beta reader matchup sort of thing. You can join a real structured writing course and you can meet people that way. There are so many people and meet them on Instagram, meet them on social, meet them on Substack.

[00:22:27] Nicole Meier: There are ways to meet other writers. So I think the one thing I really want to emphasize before I move on to my next question is listeners, please don't force yourself to work in a silo. There are so many beautiful things that come out of trading pages and supporting one another when you have one writer friend or a writer group.

[00:22:45] Tracey Lange: If I can add really quickly, Nicole, I would just say don't be afraid to reach out when you find out there's a local author. That's how Carrie and I met. Yeah. Yeah. She just kind of, I think it was an email, possibly. Maybe. On Instagram, I can't remember, but she just said, Hey, you know, I see you live in Benton.

[00:23:02] Tracey Lange: Do you want to come to a book club? And that's where we met and became friends and it went from there. So, and we all know another local writer that reached out a while ago and now she's part of our kind of local group when we meet up. So, anyway, don't be afraid to reach out. I think most authors are really appreciated.

[00:23:20] Nicole Meier: And that reminds me, I think, Tracy, I'm not sure, but I met you because I went to your book launch or I went somewhere that you were doing a book thing. So go to author events. I'm trying to say. Yes. Yes. Definitely. But go to author events and stay after and talk to the author, especially if it's local.

[00:23:39] Nicole Meier: Absolutely. Yeah. They might say, Oh, hey, I'm super busy or whatever, but I, there's this great group I know about. I mean, really it's about asking questions. And I am to get to meet a writer that would say, no, I can't give you information or no, I can't encourage you to. Right. It's bad. Everybody's. 

[00:23:55] Tracey Lange: Yeah. 

[00:23:55] Nicole Meier: Word of.

[00:23:56] Tracey Lange: A big part of the reason we do this is to connect with people. So yeah, I think most of us are really open to that. 

[00:24:01] Nicole Meier: Yeah. 

[00:24:02] Tracey Lange: Such a good point. 

[00:24:03] Nicole Meier: Okay, we're going to switch gears. This is kind of a fun question I wanted to ask. Can you guys think of one thing you think aspiring authors, so someone's who's not published yet, misunderstand about the journey from getting that draft written to publication?

[00:24:18] Nicole Meier: Maybe you guys have had someone ask you a question or make a comment that sort of feels like a pattern at this point about a misconception. I'm going to switch it up and see. Carrie, do you have a thought for that? I think just 

[00:24:31] Kerry Chaput: how much you're going to have to read your manuscript. I mean, really, that's the real answer is that there is a bit of a misconception that you have this great idea and a publisher is going to pick you up.

[00:24:43] Kerry Chaput: And then you get to finish writing the project. And when you realize that that's not really how it works, you go, okay. I remember when I started out, I thought, okay, I write this manuscript. I work with an editor. Which I did, cleaned it up, and then I went, Okay, now I can submit it. And then you realize there's another layer, another layer, another layer.

[00:25:03] Kerry Chaput: I think it's just The time that it takes to get a project to where it needs to be to get to publication is a lot longer than I realized when I first started out. When I talk to new writers, there is that urgency of, I have to get this publication, I have to get that published book. And really, the longer you're in this, the more you write, you realize it does take so many layers and it takes a lot of patience and a lot of time.

[00:25:28] Kerry Chaput: It really is about getting that finished product. Not perfect. as quality as you can within your time constraints. 

[00:25:36] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I was really nodding and relating when you said urgency because I think for the first half of my author career, I had such a sense of urgency and borderline desperation to the next step.

[00:25:48] Nicole Meier: Same, same. Race, race, race, even though your mind knows, well, maybe rushing is not the best thing. And I think, well, I'll be different because I'm going to work really hard and I'm just going to bang this out and then go into the next phase. But. There really is that time that it takes that you have to value and pay attention to.

[00:26:05] Nicole Meier: I agree with that. Tracy, what's a misconception that's coming up for you? 

[00:26:10] Tracey Lange: Well, I landed on the first thing that Carrie said as well. Just that idea that it takes longer than you think. It takes a lot longer. And when you think it's done, it's not. And then when you think it's done again, it's still, yeah, a little idea.

[00:26:25] Tracey Lange: So I think that's one misconception and just understanding how patient you have to be. And be okay with that because the more time you spend on it, the better you get that one shot to make a first impression, whether you're trying to get an agent or get it out into the publishing world. And so you do want to be in the best shape possible.

[00:26:44] Tracey Lange: And all of us want it so badly, you know, there is a desperation working so hard and you want it so much. So, it's tempting to try and move a little too fast. I think a lot of us have done that, learned the hard way, like, okay, yeah, that wasn't ready to go. Yeah, we have all said that sentence at some point.

[00:27:02] Tracey Lange: Yeah, yeah. And the only other thing I'd mention is, And I don't mean to sound sort of pessimistic at all, but it is a reality. You think that, Oh, I finally got an agent. Oh my gosh, I got published. And then it's going to be kind of, not that you keep working hard, but I have to say the doubts and insecurities and all the things you worry about when you're working on that first one and just hoping it gets out in the world.

[00:27:30] Tracey Lange: They're still very much there. Every project, you have to face it down. It might change a little bit. You feel like you learn a lot and you might have a little bit more comfort with your story or level of confidence, but I think that that's another sort of misconception. People think, well, you get published and then boom, you know, you're set and it's like, no, it's not really.

[00:27:50] Tracey Lange: You know, there's so many ups and downs and unknowns always. You just have to kind of be prepared for it. Yeah, 

[00:27:57] Nicole Meier: 100 percent because it's about growing in your art and growing in your career. And then all of the nuances that come with both sides of that. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. We talked about how long it takes and you got to be really patient.

[00:28:13] Nicole Meier: And I think that One thing the listeners would love to hear is when you're taking the time it takes, when you're revising and revising and getting feedback, how do you stay motivated and creative when writing kind of feels like a slog? Carrie? 

[00:28:30] Kerry Chaput: I really try not to attach too much meaning to any one day.

[00:28:37] Kerry Chaput: It really, for me, is just about showing up, and there are days where I write One paragraph in that two hours and there are days when I write pages and pages and I just can't, I don't want to pull myself away. It's so different and I really just let it be what it is. I don't do word count goals because it really stifles the process for me.

[00:28:57] Kerry Chaput: I know a lot of people need them for motivation. I get that. For me, I let myself have the experience of writing every day, whatever that looks like. And sometimes I write three pages that I erase, and that's my experience for the day. Or sometimes for a week, I'll write a chapter or two chapters and go, that's not right, erase.

[00:29:14] Kerry Chaput: So I really try to let go of my attachment to the physicality of that manuscript and let it be the idea. I let my intuition guide the idea. and let it unfold as it wants to. That for me keeps the magic alive with writing. 

[00:29:32] Nicole Meier: That is a beautiful methodology. I know there's some listeners out there saying, I want that so badly for myself, but I will write three pages and erase it and feel like I failed for the day.

[00:29:44] Nicole Meier: So what's your advice to them? 

[00:29:47] Kerry Chaput: No, don't ever feel like that. Really, if you are following your instincts about the manuscript, that's what matters. There are times where you question And maybe you want to push through, maybe you want to write forward and see where it goes. Maybe you want to go, no, that's not right, let's take a detour.

[00:30:05] Kerry Chaput: Give yourself freedom to do that. Take the judgment out of it because this is not a linear process, no matter how you slice it. 

[00:30:12] Tracey Lange: Yeah, perfectly said. 

[00:30:15] Nicole Meier: Yeah, and add to that, Tracy, I want to hear what else you're thinking when she's saying that. 

[00:30:20] Tracey Lange: Oh, that's just so right on. And any pages that go by the wayside or any cuts you make, none of that in my mind is a waste of time.

[00:30:28] Tracey Lange: And I know there are days where it's hard to believe that,

[00:30:37] Tracey Lange: what I think of as the slug portion of this career, this writing thing right now. I finished one project and I'm getting ready to start the next one, which is exciting but also daunting. Yeah, in time because I have a better idea now of just how much work is really involved in getting from the beginning to finish product.

[00:30:59] Tracey Lange: And that can be tough for me to get motivated. And then part of it is just knowing the work that's coming. Part of it is, when you finish a project, you've spent a lot of time with those characters. And, mourning is probably too strong a word, but there is a little bit of like, having to say goodbye to them.

[00:31:16] Tracey Lange: Yes. In that world that you spent hours in every day, and at least when I'm the thick of it, it's kind of first thing I think about in mourning, and, right, drift off at night. And they all still live up here. So there's kind of saying goodbye as well to that project, which is probably part of it. But I find that when the well's running a little dry, sometimes you also just need a little bit of time.

[00:31:41] Tracey Lange: And that's when I try to find some really good books to read, even a good show, any good content, warping some content helps me kind of get through those periods, like in between projects. 

[00:31:53] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I think that's so great to share with listeners, especially if they haven't written or published multiple stories yet, is Don't be surprised if there's a grieving period when you're done.

[00:32:03] Nicole Meier: You've lived in these characters worlds for a year plus. Yeah. And then you have to sort of say goodbye to them, move on to the next. And you know so much. Sometimes you know too much because you know how much work is going to go into the next manuscript. Yeah. 

[00:32:19] Tracey Lange: Yeah. That's one downside. The other thing I would share real quick is I've got three books out and I've had this one That I've worked on and off on for many, many years and I sent it to my agent and we sent it to my editor and the feedback I got is really causing me to think that maybe it's time to put this one aside, maybe for good.

[00:32:43] Tracey Lange: And that's hard too because talk about feeling like a possible waste of time I put, when you add it up, it's kind of years of work into this book, but the timing's not right. Right. And so that's kind of where I am at the moment, but none of that feels like a waste of time. Even if that book never sees the light of day, I learned from it.

[00:33:04] Tracey Lange: I know I improved my skills through it. But yeah, it's kind of a setback of sorts, but it all helps you grow as a writer. Tracy, I'm so glad you said that because I 

[00:33:15] Kerry Chaput: think that's also something that I was not prepared for was the number of setbacks that I was going to get. The unexpected setbacks, something like that, where this project that you're like, I'm ready to go in, all in on this.

[00:33:28] Kerry Chaput: And then it turns out that maybe this isn't the right project. And you really do have to constantly re evaluate and pivot. And that is, every author will tell you at any stage of their career, you got to pivot sometimes. You have to be flexible. And it's hard. And I was not prepared for that. 

[00:33:46] Tracey Lange: And I would add to that, so much of it is your gut feeling.

[00:33:50] Tracey Lange: In this particular case, I have an agent and editor, they're saying, Hey, if you make some changes, we want to read it again. But I've had my own doubts and it's almost like that's sort of confirmed. And it's a head game. But at the end, my gut is kind of telling me right now that this is something that needs to be set aside.

[00:34:05] Tracey Lange: And even if you have a great team, agent, editors, publishers. at the end, you really have to make that decision for yourself. And yeah, it's not linear at all. This whole process. Yeah. 

[00:34:20] Nicole Meier: And I can still relate to that. And I wanted to add that I have had books myself that I've written and either my agent or an editor she's passed my book on to has some, you know, revise and resubmit notes.

[00:34:34] Nicole Meier: And I think that I have changed it enough And I send it back and they don't think that it's changed enough at all and I needed reflection to step away from that and say, Oh yeah, I was totally rushing. I just wanted to like answer their notes and get it back to them and that's why that book didn't sell or that's why that idea had to pivot like you're saying and go on to something else because I wasn't listening to my intuition.

[00:35:00] Nicole Meier: I wasn't getting quiet enough and reflecting on. What does this story really need as opposed to like, just, I understand the assignment. I'm going to do the homework and rush it right back. Yes. That's like my biggest downfall. Yeah. 

[00:35:12] Tracey Lange: Yeah. 

[00:35:13] Nicole Meier: Okay. Now I'm going to flip it around. Now that we've talked about some of the discouraging parts of the parts that we have to work through, I want to hear something fun.

[00:35:22] Nicole Meier: So let's talk about, Tracy, you can go first, something really rewarding that's come out of being an author so far. 

[00:35:29] Tracey Lange: I mentioned it earlier, but the connection. with people. I love, I'm so grateful when readers take a moment to either post or view a picture, or I get emails just to mention what the book meant to them.

[00:35:44] Tracey Lange: And I'm often surprised what people take away. I love hearing those different perspectives. So the connection with readers, but also other writers, that has been such a gift. I have my Zoom writing group and the people I did that program with years ago. And then, of course, we've found a local group. Yeah.

[00:36:04] Tracey Lange: Which is so nice to meet up in person and have coffee and just vent or cheer each other. Celebrate. Yeah. Celebrate. Exactly. And then just occasionally, I'd get writers that are reaching out and maybe they want to blurb or they just want to share their book with you. And so I just love that connection with people because it is such a solitary job.

[00:36:27] Tracey Lange: Which is fine. I'm usually in here in my office for hours with these people I made up. I love them, but it's nice to just make that connection with people and talk writing or reading or, you know, and again, just hear how you impacted a reader. That's such a gift. 

[00:36:44] Nicole Meier: Yeah, so cool. Carrie, some rewarding things for you.

[00:36:49] Kerry Chaput: Yeah, having a readership is truly magical. I mean, it makes this process absolutely worth it. For me, another layer of something that I, it took me a few years to realize this, but I finally took ownership of my life when I started writing. I expressed wanting to do this when I was 12 years old. I was sitting there scratching on a head, writing notes and thinking this was going to be my life.

[00:37:13] Kerry Chaput: And my parents said, no, it's not. You're not pursuing this. And so I said, okay. And I went about my life by someone else's rules. decades worth. I followed the path that my dad chose my major for me. The restrictions in my world did not allow me to pursue this thing that I loved. And I really put it out of my mind.

[00:37:35] Kerry Chaput: It's not like something that I always said, Oh, I wish you would have done that. I wish you would have done that. I have moments where I'd pick up a, an idea and play around with it. And instantly I could hear my parents say, no, you're not doing that. And I put it aside. And so when I finally picked up writing seriously, when I turned 40, for me, it was about, Gaining ownership and saying, nobody gets to dictate my life anymore.

[00:37:59] Kerry Chaput: I get to do this, I get to follow my passion no matter where it leads, however my stories get out in the world, I need to just really connect with this need I have to be a writer. And there's a lot of power in that for me. 

[00:38:13] Nicole Meier: Amen. I love that. 

[00:38:16] Kerry Chaput: Because, you know, you're 40, that's kind of what it's about is taking ownership back of your life.

[00:38:20] Kerry Chaput: And letting go of what everyone else has said and saying, no, this is my turn, doing this my way. And what an amazing way to do that is to write your own 

[00:38:28] Tracey Lange: stories. Yeah, and there are times when you're writing, I mean, I came out a little bit later like you, Carrie, and It wasn't because someone, the only person telling me I couldn't write books was myself.

[00:38:40] Tracey Lange: Right. So I can't blame my parents. But for a long time, I went another direction, which was great. I worked in the mental health field, and I think that all feeds what I'm doing now. But when I had the chance to step away, I was finally like, okay, this is it. This is your chance to do this. And you feel a bit selfish, or at least I did.

[00:38:59] Tracey Lange: I struggled with that at first because our kids were home then, they were in school, so I had time, but I didn't want anything else to suffer. So I was kind of like at it all day when they were gone, but I still want to make dinner and all of those things. So you definitely have to protect that time. Just what you were saying earlier.

[00:39:15] Tracey Lange: Yeah. So. But it is like taking ownership and now I'm like, how did you wait this long? I know! 

[00:39:23] Nicole Meier: How did you wait this long? There is that journey, you know, not to sound cliche, but that journey that you start out excited and inspired and then you kind of have that creative guilt because you're indulging in something and you're maybe neglecting or you feel like you're neglecting other parts of your life.

[00:39:38] Nicole Meier: And they kind of dive back in and for me, one of the benefits was, I didn't set out to do this, but what happened when I started writing books is I found my voice. And I think that that was a really cool sort of reward for me is, oh, this is who I am. This is my perspective. This is what I have to say. I love that so much.

[00:39:56] Nicole Meier: Yeah. 

[00:39:57] Tracey Lange: Yeah. Oh, I agree a hundred percent. Yeah. 

[00:39:59] Nicole Meier: Yeah. Okay. Yay. Okay. So I think that we should move on to talking about. something that is realistic and then something that's encouraging. So the realistic part is, could you each share what you think is going on in the market now compared to when you first started thinking about writing your first book?

[00:40:20] Nicole Meier: Because that is also something I want listeners to know is, look, the market's ever changing. What readers are wanting, what editors are wanting, the way you're putting yourself out there, whether it's through a book or through social media, is there something that comes to mind when I ask you guys that question Maybe how the markets evolved a little bit 

[00:40:39] Tracey Lange: for me.

[00:40:40] Tracey Lange: I don't feel like am I doing it that long, but I guess I've seen some changes I mean, first of all, the publishing world, as long as I've been in it, has been changing. There's so many more options now. Self publishing to the traditional route, to everything in between, which is great. There's so many more ways to get your work out there now.

[00:41:02] Tracey Lange: I will say one observation. When I first kind of jumped in and I was querying agents and trying to get that agent interested in my work. I would at least hear back, even if it was just to say, I gotta take a pass on this for whatever reason, like, people were pretty courteous and responsive, even if it was to say no.

[00:41:21] Tracey Lange: And then we seem to move into this period where people just didn't even hear anything. And it's kind of funny, but I think there's some truth to it. I do know agents that said, you know, I think when COVID hit, everybody decided to write a book. Yeah. So, uh, their inboxes were a little more overwhelmed than usual for a while there.

[00:41:40] Tracey Lange: So that probably had something to do with it. But I guess what seems sort of hopeful is, I do have people reach out to me, whether they've done the writing program I did, or just in general, they've read my books. And I'm hearing that there are getting responses and seems like people are a little more interested agents to have maybe a little more time to take or if they are sending a rejection, maybe they're including some helpful feedback.

[00:42:04] Tracey Lange: So that just seems to be some of the trend that I see going on out there. 

[00:42:09] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I agree. I have been a little bit shocked that over the past. I don't know, handful of months. Some of my writing clients, especially, are getting more R& Rs, revises, resubmits. And I'm like, holy cow, this didn't happen over COVID.

[00:42:24] Nicole Meier: You just get ghosted. Yeah. Okay. Carrie, what's an observation that 

[00:42:28] Kerry Chaput: you want to share? I would just second everything that Tracy said. I agree that I love that there is an emergence of more independent publishers. I think that's great. The landscape is going to continue to, I think Jane Friedman said this, where, you know, As cracks happen, it allows space for these new ideas to prosper and new businesses, and I think that's great because there's so many different options for authors now.

[00:42:55] Kerry Chaput: I will also second, my experience with querying was much the same when I first started seven years ago. I was getting fairly quick responses, and over the last couple of years, it just broke me down. I couldn't do it. I got a form rejection after 17 months on a query. And I went, I don't know how I can kind of continue doing this.

[00:43:16] Kerry Chaput: And it was probably that kickback from COVID. I've also, I'll be completely honest, I've been kind of vocal on social media about how I believe we need to have an overhaul of the query process. I think it's impossible for authors. It's impossible for agents. I think there's a better way to do this. I'm hoping that that will start to become a reality.

[00:43:35] Kerry Chaput: better. It's too much, too many agents, they can't keep up with their queue. I don't know how anyone can keep up with that number of submissions. And then authors are waiting on the end going, okay, but nothing's happening and there's no response. That's really hard for everyone. So I'm really happy to hear that that might be improving a little bit.

[00:43:54] Nicole Meier: Yeah. 

[00:43:54] Kerry Chaput: Yeah. 

[00:43:55] Nicole Meier: And another result of what you're talking about, Carrie, which I think is actually pretty cool, is more authors are empowering themselves and saying, you know what? I'm in self published. I'm going to be the CEO of my own little small business here, and I'm going to take my creative endeavor into my own hands.

[00:44:12] Nicole Meier: And I really love that too. There's a huge emergence of self published authors. Yeah. Yes. You're nodding. Yeah. 

[00:44:18] Tracey Lange: Carrie and I have talked a lot about this. We all have, since she and I have had different paths to publication. And I admit, I kind of envy, there's so much unknown in the publishing world, even once you're published.

[00:44:31] Tracey Lange: That's kind of one of the things I would mention to people, there's this like curtain and everything goes on behind it. And even once you're in there, there's so much you don't know. And I can never at any point, for instance, tell you how many books I've sold. The only information you get comes twice a year and those are your numbers, but they're usually at least six months behind.

[00:44:51] Tracey Lange: So it's things like that. And it's just the way the publishing world has been forever. And so it'll probably change, but it's taking a lot of time to get there. Whereas, you just have a lot more control, whether you're self published or even working with a smaller publisher, you often, things move faster, there's not so much waiting.

[00:45:09] Tracey Lange: And I know the waiting is important because publishers want to have time to create buzz about your book and do marketing and that's all important for sure. But yeah, I've seen some of the upsides of, Either self publishing or going with a smaller publisher as well. You just have more information and a little more control.

[00:45:28] Tracey Lange: And 

[00:45:28] Kerry Chaput: sometimes it's project specific. Nicole, you and I were talking about other friends who have, they've been in the traditional world and for whatever reason, one of their books doesn't get picked up and they're like, I love this book, I'm gonna self publish this one. And there is options for different projects, which is really great.

[00:45:45] Kerry Chaput: Yes. 

[00:45:46] Nicole Meier: Yeah, and I think I'm a poster child for that, is that I have done two books hybrid and two books traditional, and it really depended on the title. It depended on what I was doing, what my goals, and how I felt with certain publishers. You know, did I feel like I was a small fish in a big pond getting lost?

[00:46:03] Nicole Meier: Did I feel like I wanted more creative control? It's really something that authors should ask themselves, not for their whole body of work, but maybe sometimes title by title. Yeah. Okay, let's wrap it up with something encouraging. Let's talk about maybe a piece of advice you would have for emerging authors out there because My listeners are so many people who are getting ready to publish.

[00:46:27] Nicole Meier: So can you guys wrap this up with something 

[00:46:30] Tracey Lange: you want to share? My go to is always find your people, which we've talked a lot about, but I also just think it's so important to be patient and purposeful. Those are the two words I come back to a lot, because we've all been there. You're working so hard. You want it so badly.

[00:46:49] Tracey Lange: But it's just so important to find the right people. I remember being at that point where like, I'll take any agent, you know, and yeah, yeah, yeah. I realize that actually it's really important who you decide to team up with and which publisher you decide to go with. And I know people who have turned down deals, you know, they're dying to get published because it didn't feel right.

[00:47:13] Tracey Lange: And on the flip side, I know people that took deals that didn't quite feel right, but they were so eager. And then they sort of regretted So, I just encourage everyone to be really patient. Patient with your work and putting the necessary time in and then patient in making those decisions that will shape your career, your future career.

[00:47:32] Nicole Meier: Great advice. Really good. Okay, Carrie. 

[00:47:37] Kerry Chaput: I've really switched my mindset over the last year where I was so focused on the outcome. on the publisher, on training at the agent, on book sales, on things that are so completely out of my control. You should think about that. That's the really exciting, fun part of publishing.

[00:47:58] Kerry Chaput: But it was sort of hard to live in that space where you're constantly looking at things outside of your control. And I shifted and thought, every day, I'm going to connect back with this thing that I love, which is storytelling. Learning the craft, improving my skills, as Tracy said, just keeping that really good connection with your community.

[00:48:20] Kerry Chaput: And that's what drives me every day. And I let everything else just happen as it's going to happen. Because the only thing that I can control is the reason I got into this in the first place, which is I really love writing stories. I love exploring this craft, which never ends. It's a lifelong pursuit. So if you can connect to the joy of this, No one can take that from you no matter what happens in your publishing journey.

[00:48:43] Tracey Lange: And just to add to that, Keri, is that idea that you can't write to the market. Yeah. Try to figure out what's selling. And there's actually been, I think, some people out there giving some bad advice. At a writing conference, there was a panel that sort of talked about writing to the times right now. And I just think you have to write what you're passionate about, or it's not going to be authentic if you try to be sort of trendy.

[00:49:10] Tracey Lange: Just to sell a book. You got to stick with the story you're wanting to tell. And that's what's going to come across. So I guess that would be my other tip because I know sometimes people think, what's timely? What could I try to sell right now? And I think that it doesn't really serve you. 

[00:49:25] Kerry Chaput: Yeah. Be aware of the business, but don't let that drive what story you write.

[00:49:30] Kerry Chaput: Exactly. 

[00:49:31] Nicole Meier: Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's the why of why you got started. You didn't do this to fulfill your publisher's dream. You didn't do this to fulfill your agent or editor's dream. You did this to fulfill your dream. Yeah. Okay, you guys, this was an amazing conversation. You know that we could talk for hours and hours, which we do.

[00:49:50] Nicole Meier: Which we do. For coffee and wine. But I wanted to keep this tight for the podcast. Thank you so much for being on here and being honest and open. I know that listeners are really going to glean some good nuggets of inspiration from this. And listeners, If you want to find more on Tracey and Kerry, please look at the show notes.

[00:50:08] Nicole Meier: I've got all kinds of goodness in there. And thanks again, guys. And thank you, listeners. Happy writing, and we'll see you next time.

[00:50:20] Nicole Meier: If you want to check out my coaching programs for fiction writers, visit NicoleMeier. com. That's M E I E R. And if you liked this episode, I'd love you to take a minute to leave a rating and review for this podcast. This will help more writers like you to discover the show. and to get going on their writing journey.

[00:50:40] Nicole Meier: Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, happy writing, everyone.