52. A Chat With My Literary Agent: How to Land & Work with One, with Abby Saul

In this episode, I sit down with my literary agent Abby Saul for a deep dive into the querying process, the realities of an agent’s role, and what makes a submission stand out. 

If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by the thought of querying, you won’t want to miss her top advice for catching an agent’s eye in a crowded inbox.

We also debunk common myths about what agents actually do, break down what grabs their attention in a query letter, and explore current market trends—plus, how to balance industry awareness with staying true to your unique voice. And for writers facing rejection, Abby shares words of encouragement to help you keep going.

Whether you’re just starting to query or refining your pitch, this episode is packed with insights to help you navigate the path to representation with more confidence!

For more on Abby Saul, visit larkwords.com

For help with agent query strategy, visit bookworks.co

Transcript

STEPS TO STORY EP 52 - A Chat With My Literary Agent Abby Saul

[00:00:00] Nicole Meier: If you're tuning in today, you're in for a real treat. This episode is particularly special to me because I'm having a thoughtful conversation with my longtime literary agent, Abby Saul. She's here to share her valuable insight into all things agent queries. Whether you're just starting your writing journey or considering a traditional publishing path, I encourage you to pull out your pen and notebook because Abby's dishing out nuggets of wisdom you won't want to miss.

[00:00:30] Nicole Meier: But first, let's do a proper introduction. Abby Saul has over 15 years of publishing experience and is an editorial expert with a passion for fantastic reads. She founded the Lark Group after working on both the publishing and agenting sides of the business, and represents best selling, award winning, and engrossing adult commercial and literary fiction.

[00:00:54] Nicole Meier: Her wishlist and her personal library runs the gamut. From literary newbies and classics, to cozy mysteries, to sappy women's fiction, to dark and twisted thrillers. Welcome, Abby.

[00:01:13] Nicole Meier: Welcome to Steps to Story. This season, I'm focusing on helping you grow as a writer and as an author. I'm Nicole Meier, multi published author and certified book coach, here to guide you on strengthening your story and getting it out into the world. This season, we'll explore ways to overcome the challenges that hold writers back, from breaking through creative blocks to fine tuning your story's structure and navigating the publishing world with confidence.

[00:01:41] Nicole Meier: Wherever you are in your journey, consider this your supportive space to find clarity, direction, and encouragement. Let's take the next step in your story together.

[00:01:56] Nicole Meier: Okay, welcome, welcome. I am so happy to have you here, Abby. This is really exciting for me because even though we've worked together over the years, we don't get a lot of face to face time. So listeners, we're recording this on Zoom and Abby get to see each other, which is really exciting. But welcome, Abby.

[00:02:13] Abby Saul: Thank you so much for having me, Nicole. And it is, yes, it is so special to see your beautiful smiling face and to get to talk books with you, which is always my favorite thing to 

[00:02:22] Nicole Meier: do. It is. I wish we could do this all the time because it just feels fulfilling to talk about all things books. Absolutely. I agree.

[00:02:30] Nicole Meier: So, before we jump into all the questions, because I know listeners are eager to hear about literary agents and all the things kind of behind the scenes that we don't get to see day to day, I would love if you could share about your journey. At the top of this episode, I did share your bio with everybody.

[00:02:47] Nicole Meier: But I'd love to open things up to talk about how you even came into being a literary agent and starting your agency and a little bit about that. Do you mind sharing? 

[00:02:57] Abby Saul: No, of course. I'm glad to. So a lot of us who are writers and who work in publishing have always loved books. I was the person who had to take a wagon to the library to bring books home every time I went because I just tore through them.

[00:03:10] Abby Saul: I've always been a book lover. And so when I was in college and majoring in English and history, I sort of started to think about, well, so what does that mean? How can I work with books? And I interned at Publishing Houses and I also interned at a literary agency based in Chicago. And just something clicked in my brain that it was the perfect combination of getting to do editorial work.

[00:03:36] Abby Saul: but also business and sales. It was an incredible experience of going from just loving books to thinking about books as a business, which it is a big shift because publishing is a business. So to think about it beyond just, Oh, I like this book and therefore it is a good book. To start thinking about how can I sell a book and what does it look like and what decisions are made.

[00:03:57] Abby Saul: And so after I graduated college, I went on to the publishing side of things in New York. And then I moved back to Chicago with my family and the agency where I had interned during college heard I was back and offered me a job. And I said, yes, because that's absolutely what I want to do. And so I was there and really got to be an agent and learn from some of the best of the best.

[00:04:22] Abby Saul: And then I started my own agency almost nine years ago now. Which is amazing. And I get to do what I love every day. I am delighted to have started on the publishing side and to see how a big publishing house works and to see how big most of the big publishing houses are and have some of that internal knowledge.

[00:04:42] Abby Saul: But I love every day that I switched over to the agenting side, getting to work directly with authors, getting to wear those two hats, the business hat and the sort of editor hat. That's very loosely my journey to get here and I feel very lucky to have been exposed. to agenting when I was and to get to learn about it and see it as sort of a career possibility because I love what I do.

[00:05:03] Nicole Meier: Yeah. Okay. That is a great story. I forgotten that you had worked in the publishing side too. And I think that's unique because I tell people, look, not every agent helps you edit. They don't give editorial feedback and you do, which I think is rare and special. So, that just gives you kind of a better insight, in my opinion, into the work because you're not just looking at it through a marketing lens, you're actually looking at it through an editorial lens.

[00:05:32] Nicole Meier: Would you say that's true? 

[00:05:33] Abby Saul: Oh, absolutely. Yes. And so, I sort of look at it a project three ways when I take one on or when I'm working with a client who has a new project that's going out. And the first is just do I like it as a reader? Am I having a good time reading it? Does it resonate with me? Is it doing what it needs to on me as a reader?

[00:05:50] Abby Saul: And then I look at it as an editor, and you know, Nicole, I often have big changes that I ask for. I am a tough editor, but hopefully, you know, my dream as an editor is to To raise issues that maybe are very tough that the author says, Oh, yeah, I knew that I needed to fix that. And you found it. And here we go.

[00:06:08] Abby Saul: Let's figure out how to do it. And then the last way I look at it is as a marketer and as a salesperson, as an agent, I don't make any money until my clients make money. And so I do have to think about can I sell this? And there are absolutely books that I love as a reader. That I haven't been able to sell or that I know I can't sell.

[00:06:27] Abby Saul: And there's books out in the world that have sold that I don't respond to as a reader. It's a funny thing. But when I have a project that I love as a reader can see an editorial path or can see a sales path for, that's when I know it's a project that I need to work on. 

[00:06:42] Nicole Meier: Yeah, it sounds like hitting that sweet spot, really.

[00:06:45] Nicole Meier: You have to have a personal interest, but also know. Can I sell this? And I think this is what emerging authors are suddenly starting to realize more and more is that agents and publishers and small presses, they're not just taking things on because they love the writer and they love the story. They actually have to say, this is the tough love moment of, is this marketable today?

[00:07:06] Nicole Meier: Can I sell this today? And that is a hard thing to think about when you're just writing the story that's on your heart, but it's also a very true reality. I mean, you don't get paid until. The book sells. 

[00:07:19] Abby Saul: Exactly. And so that I have lots of projects that I've worked on for forever before I see a penny. I have projects that I've worked on that I've never seen a penny on.

[00:07:27] Abby Saul: It is that moment of me in college at my internship, going from just, I love books and books are fun to, Oh, this is a business. And really the best books, the books of my heart as an agent are the ones that marry those two sides. Absolutely. Nicole, that I respond to as a reader and that I just passionately love, but that also I can see a path towards sales and hopefully great success too.

[00:07:51] Nicole Meier: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm glad you're being transparent about that with the listeners because It's hard to move from that artist's brain to the entrepreneurial brain. And I always tell people, look, launching a book is like launching a small business. You have to think of it that way. 

[00:08:06] Abby Saul: One hundred percent.

[00:08:07] Abby Saul: Yes. But you're right to it. It is a big shift. And I think one of the hard things about being a writer, especially if you're doing it on your own, you know, people who indie publish, I think especially it is that shift from you have to write the book with your heart and with your artist self. And then you have to put on a different hat, you have to put on a different outfit, you have to whatever to switch to the business side of things and really think of it completely separate from your artist self because it does become fully just a business.

[00:08:39] Nicole Meier: Yeah. It's so true. A hundred percent. Okay. Now that we've kind of talked about a little behind the scenes and what you're looking for in terms of how can this fit into a few different slots. I would love to know about your slush pile. So for writers who are gearing up to query, what's one piece of advice you can give them to help them stand out in a sea of submissions?

[00:09:02] Nicole Meier: So 

[00:09:03] Abby Saul: this seems like a very small thing, but I will say it. It's probably obvious, but I'm going to say it. And it really is, it's to write a good query letter. And what I mean by that is to understand what a query letter is supposed to look like. And there's lots of great resources online about that have sample query letters that sort of say what's the goal of a query letter.

[00:09:26] Abby Saul: It does stand out in my inbox. When a letter is formatted and reads in a professional way. And I think that, again, that you have to write a query letter to find an agent most of the time. And so it seems sort of silly to be like, you got to write a good query letter is my biggest piece of advice. But I really do think a lot of people spend so much time working on their manuscript and then just sort of throw something together without realizing, I mean, Nicole, you know, my agency is just me.

[00:09:55] Abby Saul: Yeah. When I am open to queries. I get 100 to 300 queries a week. It's just and I'm not writer's house. I'm not one of the big ones. Just imagine what their inboxes look like. And so someone who understood the assignment and writes a one page sort of perfectly formatted reads professionally gray letter is already ahead of the game in a lot of ways.

[00:10:18] Abby Saul: There's lots of other pieces of that. Making sure that your word count of your manuscript matches the market value that you're not too low and not too high. There's also great resources online about the genre you're writing and sort of what typical word counts are. And then I think subjectively write a good query letter too and by that I mean, If your project is funny, hopefully your query letter is a little bit funny.

[00:10:41] Abby Saul: Show a little bit of your tone. Show a little bit of that hurt that you put into the book in your query letter. Something that I do like to advise people is to write that very perfectly formatted query letter that sort of fills the criteria that it needs to fill that you look up online and see you need to fulfill.

[00:10:58] Abby Saul: Write it and then give that query letter to someone who has never read your book and have them read it and then tell you what they think your book is about. Because that's what's happening. You're sending that courier letter to me. I don't know anything about your book. And so you're giving me a first impression.

[00:11:14] Abby Saul: And so I think it's a really good idea with a trusted someone, a friend or a neighbor or something. What first impression are you giving with your courier letter? And is it striking the right tone? And that is a really good test of, are you sort of subjectively crafting a note that conveys some of the pieces of your manuscript that you want it to?

[00:11:34] Abby Saul: Mm hmm. 

[00:11:35] Nicole Meier: That is excellent advice and actually I'm thinking of all the writers that I'm working with right now and they're having other writers and readers who know their work very well. Be the beta reader for their query letter, which actually, if I'm listening to you write, isn't the whole package. You should have someone who has nothing to do with your book, no idea what you're writing, give you feedback.

[00:11:56] Nicole Meier: That's really great. 

[00:11:59] Abby Saul: Because it can be so helpful, of course, someone who knows your book is going to have the best editing suggestions for your query letter. They're going to say, you know, you should mention this part or you should mention that part. But you have to remember, ultimately, the agents who are reading it are people who have no way.

[00:12:13] Abby Saul: They don't know you. Typically, they don't know your book. They've never read a word of it. And even if you are including a lot of agents ask for the first several pages or the first three chapters, even if you're including those. Most of the time the agent is reading the query first and is forming an impression about sort of genre and tone.

[00:12:32] Abby Saul: And so I do think yes, I think it is great advice to loop in someone who doesn't know your book to read your query and sort of give you a sense of the impression that it is making. 

[00:12:42] Nicole Meier: Yeah. So smart. Okay. I hope people are taking notes or listening because that's a great bit of information. So speaking of the query letter, I do know writers who, and I've done this too, myself included.

[00:12:56] Nicole Meier: really kind of get paralyzed about the formula? You know, oh, what if I don't have the right genre and word count in the first section and then the body is the hook and all that? Do you care as much about a formula or do you really just want to know what is the heart of this book? Or is it kind of equal?

[00:13:14] Abby Saul: I'd like to see something that is formatted in the right way that can take lots of different forms. There are great query letters. with sort of title word count genre, which I think is the good way to start. I think that's sort of the formula for a reason. But I absolutely have enjoyed query letters that end with that information.

[00:13:34] Abby Saul: There is not like a secret code 4 that you have to hit to unlock the agent door. I do think things that are consistently true about good query letters are that they do have that information in there. They do say genre, they do say title, they do say word count, they do have the back of book pitch, that short synopsis of the book, all of those things are included.

[00:13:59] Abby Saul: in a good query letter in whatever order you put them in. So I do care more about just getting the impression of the book and having my appetite whetted to read more. That matters more to me about a query. And then it does need to answer some questions about word count, certainly, sort of genre. Though a lot of times I get books and I'm like, you say it's X genre and I think maybe it actually is Y, but the hook sounds good.

[00:14:23] Abby Saul: So we can work on that together. So even that doesn't have to be perfect, but it does need to convey information. Is it your debut project or are you long established a little bit about you as an author? There is sort of a format. It should be one page. Those things are true. So short and sweet is always good.

[00:14:40] Abby Saul: But the actual order of things, you don't need to get hung up on that. There are several ways to approach it as long as you're conveying sort of information that needs to be conveyed. 

[00:14:49] Nicole Meier: I love that. And when they put their bio, how important is platform? Do they need to have written somewhere to reach any kind of audience or does it matter?

[00:14:58] Nicole Meier: So 

[00:14:59] Abby Saul: it doesn't really matter. In fiction, if we're talking about fiction, the book always matters more, though it is great to know and more and more acquisitions, meaning conversations are happening at publishing houses about. platform even for fiction writers. Are you active on social media? Do you have a community of writer friends who will support you in this journey?

[00:15:20] Abby Saul: That's all great stuff to know. But for fiction, a bio can be full of writing credits and awards and everything and that's great. And the bio can also be, I live in Oregon and this is my debut project. That's enough of an author bio for the right fiction project. For nonfiction, platform is as important as the book itself.

[00:15:41] Abby Saul: almost all of the time. Memoir is slightly different because that sort of veer into a more literary space. But for especially for prescriptive nonfiction or something like that, we need to know why you are the right author for this. And so for that kind of nonfiction, it's sort of 50 percent the topic of the book, 50 percent the author's platform.

[00:16:02] Abby Saul: But for fiction still, And you get bonus points if you have 2 million followers on TikTok, absolutely, but you don't have to have that to sell a fiction book. Great. Awesome. 

[00:16:14] Nicole Meier: Okay. Well, now that we've talked about your, what I call the slush pile, talked about query letters, let's talk about you. Let's talk about some things because I think that there's this curtain where people say, what does a literary agent do kind of behind the scenes?

[00:16:28] Nicole Meier: And so. Is there any kind of common misconception about what literary agents do and what does your day to day really look like? 

[00:16:36] Abby Saul: I'm sure there's a zillion misconceptions. I think probably the biggest misconception about literary agents is that we're, like, Sort of snooty and giggling as we pass on projects that people put their hearts into that's so not true It really is that piece of just I am looking for something that resonates with me as a reader And just as any reader goes into a bookstore and not every book in the bookstore is gonna be one that they want to buy And take home That's true for me too.

[00:17:04] Abby Saul: So I'm looking for something that fills those three criteria. I love it as a reader. I have an editorial vision for it and I can see my way to sell it. And that means I say no to some beautiful books that go on to sell to other people and go on to do really well and just I wouldn't have been the right partner for them.

[00:17:20] Abby Saul: So I do think a misconception is that we get really excited to say no to stuff. No, I hate it. I hate saying no to stuff. And I also need to protect my time, protect my clients, protect Make sure I'm working on the projects that I really can be the right advocate for. I think the other misconception is that we're just like sitting around drinking coffee and reading books all day.

[00:17:41] Abby Saul: Sometimes we get to do that and it's a great job. I love it. But a lot of the time Mimi and I spent this morning answering emails for a bunch of different clients who are contracted and we're looking at covers, we're looking at marketing plans, we're planning book tours. We're checking out numbers for a book that came out a week ago.

[00:18:00] Abby Saul: I then also was working with my accountant to file 1099 forms for all my clients because client money flows through me and so I have to handle tax stuff for them. Some days there's royalty statement season and we are just looking, combing through statements to make sure that my authors are getting paid correctly.

[00:18:16] Abby Saul: I'm prepping a pitch on a new project to go out and so I'm looking at my editor hit list and making sure that I have the right names on there and making sure the pitch looks good, doing follow ups. There's lots of business pieces of this. I have calls and to be on marketing calls to follow up on film, interest that's happening, talking with producers and showrunners.

[00:18:38] Abby Saul: So there's lots of different facets of my job. One of the things that's very cool about my job is that some days I'm reading and some days I'm talking with these important people in New York or LA and doing lots of really cool. sort of cool conversations. Sometimes I'm having really tough conversations with my authors and helping them get through either a creative hurdle or a professional hurdle as we figure out sort of the right next thing to do.

[00:19:01] Abby Saul: Sometimes I'm getting bombarded with rejections from editors across the board and having to deal with that. And sometimes I get to have really cool phone calls where I get an offer and get to make someone's dream come true. It's a little bit of everything, which makes it super exciting. And it's also hard to predict what the next day will bring.

[00:19:19] Nicole Meier: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I'm thinking about my own journey with you and all the different books and all the different kind of levers we're trying to pull. And one of the things for me personally, whoever I work with a publisher, an agent is I love transparency. And so even if I don't love what someone has to say, my publisher, my agent, whatever, I so appreciate the transparency.

[00:19:41] Nicole Meier: And one of the things that I know you do that I know not all agents do is. Every time you go out to pitch, you say, these are the people that I think we should pitch. What do you think? And then as soon as you get a rejection or a send more, you send me exactly what that editor at the publishing house said.

[00:19:59] Nicole Meier: So I know kind of like in real time, how the work is landing, where we're going, what's our strategy. And that to me, Is worth the weight of gold for an agent is because you want a partner. You don't just want someone like Wizard of Oz working behind the curtains and you have no idea what did they pitch my work yet.

[00:20:16] Nicole Meier: I have no idea because that does happen with some agents out there. So I am gushing about you for you. 

[00:20:23] Abby Saul: That's so nice, Nicole. Thank you. And I think that piece of it is communication is so key in any professional relationship. But I think especially in this kind of I am my author's representative in the marketplace.

[00:20:36] Abby Saul: Which means I'm taking out projects and I'm having conversations about their work, but it's their work and their names on it. Your name is on every manuscript that I submit for you. And so I do think that it's super important to be. very open and communicative about what's happening, who has it, what are they saying.

[00:20:55] Abby Saul: And different authors prefer that handled different ways too. Some people want the full real time, you got it a minute ago, you send it to me. Some people prefer like, could I just do a weekly wrap up so I'm not bombarded with the news about this? And we figure that out for sure. But at the end of the day, I mean, for all of my clients, it is their names on their projects.

[00:21:14] Abby Saul: And I think that that open communication. is vital for them to understand what I'm doing, the kind of partner that I am. And if we were to part ways, they'd have a very clear picture of what happened with their project and where they might want to take it next. 

[00:21:28] Nicole Meier: Yeah, that's really good. And I'm so happy we're talking about this because another thing that I encourage people to do when they are queering and thinking about or researching and thinking about trying to get a literary agent is don't say yes to the first person that just because.

[00:21:44] Nicole Meier: No, do I want someone who can help edit or not? Do I want that real time update or do I want like just a wrap up twice a month? Really know yourself as a writer and what you need and then see if that matches with the person who's interested in your work. Absolutely. I agree with that. Yeah. Okay. So one more thing I want to mention before I move on to my next question is something that writers don't realize is that agents can also help get audio deals, they can help get international rights, they can help get TV and film, and that's really exciting.

[00:22:17] Nicole Meier: And that's something that you've done for different clients, right? 

[00:22:20] Abby Saul: Absolutely. Yeah. has lots of different rights associated with it. And most agencies help you with all of those rights. And that's another thing to be aware of as you're talking to agents is how do they handle foreign and audio and film and TV.

[00:22:36] Abby Saul: For a lot of those things, I work with co agents, a variety of co agents, and it's because I'm not in LA and I don't speak film speak, but I work with co agents who do, who live and breathe sort of the, producer lifestyle of LA. And so one of my jobs after I sell a book to the publishing house is to look at all the sub rights, all those extra rights that are associated with a book.

[00:22:59] Abby Saul: Lots of publishers, especially nowadays, like to keep audio. The bigger places have in house audio teams. And so that's sort of a given for some of those bigger places. But for smaller publishers, It's often a point of negotiation about do they want to sell the audio rights? They do always. Yeah. And I said, we want to sell the audio rights.

[00:23:20] Abby Saul: And so that's part of a negotiation. Foreign and translation rights. So just having your book translated into another language and distributed in another country. Those are rights that sometimes I keep on behalf of my client and sometimes a publisher takes. Film and TV, almost 100 percent of the time the author keeps.

[00:23:37] Abby Saul: So then we can start to work on those rights separately. Absolutely. But there's all of these pieces that are part of, you've written a beautiful manuscript, we can sort of mine it in different ways, which is like the very crass commercial way of talking about it. But there's lots of different components to it, and yes.

[00:23:56] Abby Saul: Audio or in translation film TV, sometimes graphic novels or merchandising rights. There's lots of different pieces that come about it. And so it's important to know, which is why I think you should have an agent who's helping to negotiate contracts. It's important to know when you sign a deal with a publisher, which of those sub rights are they keeping?

[00:24:15] Abby Saul: Which are they not? How can my agent help me manage those rights and execute on those rights? Settle them for money. What does it mean? What are good terms for that? There's lots of different pieces to all of those, which is, yeah, another fun part of the job. And it can be very cool to see your book with its English cover next to its French cover.

[00:24:34] Abby Saul: It can be very cool to choose the narrator who's going to read your words out loud. There's lots of really fun moments on the publishing journey that make up for all the hard ones. And some of those pieces of the sub rights and the deals that can be associated with them are fun parts on that journey for sure.

[00:24:50] Nicole Meier: Yeah, I agree. And so many different ways to tackle it. But just knowing that you have an agent in your corner to help you with all of that. I mean, just reading the contract alone for me personally is overwhelming. And I feel like I'm doing the wrong thing. Am I not reading this right? So yeah, that's all really fun to think about in the whole journey.

[00:25:08] Abby Saul: Yeah. And I will say to you, you know, again, obviously I have a vested interest in thinking that writers should work with agents. And there's lots of reasons that I do think you should partner with an agent. It lets you protect that artist self and really be able to focus on the work and let someone else start thinking about and taking over the business side though, hopefully you aren't sort of full sailing, signing that over to someone then you're being aware of what's going on.

[00:25:32] Abby Saul: I think it's really nice to have a business partner. But I will say, without question, even if you're choosing not to work with an agent on your projects and you're having success without working with an agent, that's great. You should get someone who knows how to read a publishing contract to read your publishing contract and weigh in because they are very complicated.

[00:25:52] Abby Saul: It is not just this manuscript equals a book on the shelf and I'm signing a contract to get it there. There's lots of things about the variety of rights, how you get your rights back, how you're paid. There's just lots of components to think about that having an expert, even if they're just looking at the contract for you, is really important to have on your team.

[00:26:13] Abby Saul: I agree. 

[00:26:14] Nicole Meier: I agree. Okay, very cool. So, talking about getting the work out there and pitching and seeing where it's going to land, is it going to go with this publisher or this audio deal? Is there anything that you can share with listeners about the marketplace right now? I know we don't like to tell anyone to write to trends.

[00:26:32] Nicole Meier: But I would still love to know, I know my listeners would love to know, what are you seeing? Is there a trend or is there anything that you're seeing a pattern of in the marketplace right now in terms of what's selling or what people might be interested in down the road? 

[00:26:45] Abby Saul: Yeah. And it's good not to rate to trends and which is always my advice too, for my clients.

[00:26:51] Abby Saul: It's good not to rate to trends because By the time you write your book, the trends will have shifted. Publishing is such a wheel and whatever is on top, the second it's on top, it starts going down because there start to be too many of those in the marketplace and then editors are looking for the next thing.

[00:27:07] Abby Saul: So if I really could predict and pinpoint trends, I would have a bigger office, I'll say. But I think what I am seeing right now is that really hooky books. are really the thing. Something that you really can say in one sentence, you know, even shorter than an elevator pitch, but something you really can say in one sentence to sort of summarize the plot and get people excited.

[00:27:35] Abby Saul: When I'm writing a pitch for my clients right now, really figuring out what is that one liner that I say to an editor on a phone call that's going to make them prioritize my book over the hundreds of other ones that are on their desk. So I think that's sort of consistent across genre, just something that really is sort of catchy and new.

[00:27:55] Abby Saul: I mean, how vague is that? I recognize that completely, that's so annoying. I get very frustrated when I have editors who read and love books, but say that they couldn't articulate the hook in a way that gets it through acquisitions meetings. That has been consistent for a while now, is sort of really hooky books.

[00:28:13] Abby Saul: Of course, the big sellers right now are romance continues to be so strong. Romanticism is so strong. There's really nice sort of fantasy space. Of course, I don't work on fantasy books. I always see the trends happening on the books that just aren't for me as a reader. And that's great. There's so many readers for that out there.

[00:28:31] Abby Saul: Historical fiction is having sort of a slowdown moment right now, partially impacted by Costco deciding not to keep selling books in stores. That usually is what sort of impacts trends is who's carrying books? Where can books be on the shelf? And so if the sort of hot thing is romanticy, that's all that target's gonna carry.

[00:28:52] Abby Saul: And then there's sort of limited shelf space. That said, the thing that is always the next most successful thing is something that seemingly comes out of nowhere, that isn't following the trend, that is doing something brand new. I think about the Remarkably Bright Creatures book, has an octopus point of view, like who would have predicted that, and that of course is everywhere.

[00:29:15] Abby Saul: Things that are consistent always are just great. really great writing, great storytelling, something that just sort of whatever it is, Talking Octopus or not, that you can't put down. And I think that good books went out despite the trends. Which is just always true, but I think especially in the commercial fiction space, being able to distill your book, your gorgeous book that has so many pieces and so many elements of the plot and just is bigger than one line, being able to distill it down to one line to really say like, this is the hook of this book.

[00:29:49] Abby Saul: That's an evergreen success story. 

[00:29:53] Nicole Meier: Yeah, great advice, because that's something that writers really struggle with, is Oh, it's so hard. Yeah, not just the 250 words in the back jacket, is Can you make this two sentences and if you can, you're winning no matter what your book is about. Totally. So many writers, I'm sure I did this a lot in the beginning too, just go on and on and on about every plot point, but the book, it's like, no, that's not telling me what your book is.

[00:30:15] Nicole Meier: You know? 

[00:30:16] Abby Saul: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Yeah. 

[00:30:17] Nicole Meier: That's a really good exercise for everybody to practice for themselves. . 

[00:30:21] Abby Saul: Yes, and I promise you, I know how very hard it is. It's so hard. That's one of my harder parts of my day, is sitting down to figure out that part of the pitch. It's really hard because. The books are, yes, are huge and complex enough what makes them good books, but being able to, yeah, distill it down to its essence and why pick my book instead of other books?

[00:30:40] Abby Saul: Here's my one sentence why. 

[00:30:42] Nicole Meier: Yeah, great advice. Okay, so for people that are, have started querying and they're getting some rejections or they're getting some asks for full or partial management, but it's just still not moving for them. Do you have any words of encouragement for people that are actually in the query trenches right now?

[00:31:00] Nicole Meier: Oh my gosh. 

[00:31:00] Abby Saul: Yes. I would say It's such a numbers game and it just did. There are absolutely stories of people who query five agents and get a deal and move on within a week. What a nice querying experience for them. The more common story is tens or hundreds of agents, tens or hundreds of queries going out.

[00:31:23] Abby Saul: Maybe not even your first book, it's your second or your third book that you're querying that is the one that lands it. And so really just. I think the best advice I can give is to picture it being a long process and be pleasantly surprised if it isn't. And so that means sticking at it, trying a lot of people, don't let a few no's get you down.

[00:31:44] Abby Saul: Just know that rejection is going to be part of it and keep swinging and keep trying. That said, if you're getting consistent no's on either a query or on a full manuscript that's been requested, and you keep hearing no and you keep hearing no, it's time to stop and take a look at it. Do you need to pitch your book in a different way?

[00:32:03] Abby Saul: Does your query need to be different? Have you done the thing of asking someone who hasn't read your book what impression they get from your query? Because maybe you're not giving the right impression. Maybe your word count is too long. Maybe you haven't identified the right genre. Huh? Take a look at really just sort of the writing of your query and then also what am I saying about my book and is that accurate or do I need to tweak it a little bit to make sure I'm conveying its place in the marketplace in the right way.

[00:32:29] Abby Saul: If you're getting full requests and getting generic passes on them just like, Oh, I didn't like this very much. Really take a look at your first 50 to 100 pages. A lot of times, again, with all of the queries that I get and all the manuscripts I'm looking at, I know pretty quickly in a book if it's not for me, and it's maybe because of just not a super compelling start, not a very well written start, I might be missing out on some beautiful writing later because the first 20 pages are super clunky.

[00:33:01] Abby Saul: And so it's a really good thing to sort of stop and see, am I starting in the right place? Are these the best first chapters possible? If the exciting stuff doesn't come till later, can I start with the exciting stuff? Can I get into it a little bit faster? Sorry. So I think that really, if you're hearing a lot of no's, it's part of it, but it might be a good time to stop and look at your query, look at your first 50 pages and just see, are there tweaks I can make before this goes back out the door.

[00:33:28] Abby Saul: Great advice. And 

[00:33:29] Nicole Meier: I'm thinking about this past fall, I had, believe it or not, at least four or five clients that got R& R requests from agents. And they kind of panicked of how fast do I have to do this and turn it around? Is the agent, if I do it in two weeks, is the agent going to say it's too late? So do you have any words for them?

[00:33:46] Nicole Meier: Oh my goodness. 

[00:33:47] Abby Saul: Yes. I would defer to taking more time with an R& R than speeding through it. And that's because if I were to give someone pretty big revisions and they came back to me a week later, I would be worried that they didn't think about the implications of those revisions. Maybe they did them to the letter, but they didn't understand that changing the ending actually means the beginning needed to change too.

[00:34:10] Abby Saul: When I give notes, I love people who sort of digest them and see what that means for the book as a whole and really take their time with it. And so I think that when an R& R happens, that's a really good time to have that open communication with an agent. about, do you have a timeline in mind? Is there sort of an expiration date on your interest in this?

[00:34:31] Abby Saul: I bet most agents will say, no, take the time you need to make this revision. Or if they do have a timeline in mind, they'll say, yeah, like, I'm really, I'm hoping you can turn this around quickly because I think it's a project of the moment. I'd love to see what you do. I just wouldn't hesitate to ask that question.

[00:34:48] Abby Saul: R& R is pretty rare, actually. It takes a lot of effort to sort of give notes for revision. And I don't do that for people who aren't going to make me money, right? I mean, just because it's my job. And so when I do an R& R, it's really because there's something there that I connected with. I can't see the path towards selling it yet.

[00:35:08] Abby Saul: There's a disconnect still there. But I'm hoping that maybe with these revision notes, we can get over that disconnect. And so if I give them, there is sort of a genuine vested interest in the author and in the project. And so I'd be very open to having at least one discussion, you know, I'm not opening myself up for phone calls and phone calls, but at least a discussion about perhaps timing, a question about the revision.

[00:35:34] Abby Saul: I don't want to send them and have that throw the author into a panic. And so I would rather just sort of have a moment and talk about it over email or over a quick phone call or something. An agent who's not willing to do that will certainly share that they're not willing to do that. That you're not burning any bridges by asking for clarification.

[00:35:50] Abby Saul: But I would say that it's also a moment not to rush. Some people can turn around great revisions in two weeks, and that's perfect, and that's exciting. Some people might take six months to do a really good revision on a book, and I think that's okay, too. So if I've given an R& R, I'm more than willing to share sort of the timeline I'm thinking, and most of the time, I'm willing to read the book again whenever it's ready for me to read again, whether that's a couple weeks from now or a year from now.

[00:36:16] Nicole Meier: Yeah. Great. I love that. That's a good insight. I'm sorry for the listeners if I didn't say, if you're brand new to querying, R& R means revise and resubmit. And if you get one, yeah, if you get one from an agent, to me, that's really great because you're getting feedback and feedback is gold. Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:36:35] Nicole Meier: Okay. Awesome. Okay, this has been so helpful, Abby. I just could talk to you for like two hours because you have so much good stuff to say. Before we share where people can find you and all that good stuff, is there any kind of final bit of wisdom or advice you want to share with our listeners about just thinking about getting an agent?

[00:36:54] Abby Saul: The two things I would say are, one, really think about that visual that I've used a lot of times. So I obviously like it. But that visual of you're taking off your artist hat and you're putting on your business hat when you start researching agents, writing a query, talking to agents. It's a different skill set than just passion for your book.

[00:37:16] Abby Saul: And so really, I think the visual is helpful because you really have to sort of step to the side and start thinking of this as a business as opposed to the craft of your work. I think that that serves so many people well when they're able to make that shift from the writing to really queering as a business and as a different kind of job than writing.

[00:37:36] Abby Saul: And then the other thing that I would say is agents and publishers and editors are just people and most of us are in this job because we love books and we love writers and we are so impressed by what you all do. And so when you have an opportunity to communicate with us or whether it's pitching at a conference or over email or on a phone call, whatever it is, if you can remember that shared love of books.

[00:38:03] Abby Saul: And not be intimidated. Of course, any professional, a job interview is intimidating. Of course it is. And you have to handle yourself professionally. But just remembering that. If I'm talking to you about your book, it's because I liked your book or I'm interested in you as a writer or I just love books in general and I'm here to talk about it.

[00:38:21] Abby Saul: I'm here to demystify it. And so not letting nerves sort of get the best of you, I think as much as you can when you have the opportunity to talk to a professional, we know a lot of things and are so glad to talk about it. So those are my pieces of advice. What a great way to wrap 

[00:38:37] Nicole Meier: it up. I so appreciate that.

[00:38:38] Nicole Meier: Let's tell everyone where they can find you because I know a lot of people will really be interested in looking all the things. Abby. 

[00:38:44] Abby Saul: Absolutely. So the Lark group is my agency and our website is larkwords. com. We're also on Instagram at Lark Words, which is the social media we are most active on right now.

[00:38:57] Abby Saul: We're also Lark Words on X and on Facebook, but Instagram is really where we're active. And I'm very open if you hear this podcast and have questions or thoughts, find me on my website or on Instagram and let me know if I can be helpful to you. 

[00:39:13] Nicole Meier: Great. Thank you so much, Abby. I so loved having you here.

[00:39:17] Nicole Meier: And thanks everyone for tuning in. We'll see you next time.

[00:39:25] Nicole Meier: If you want to check out my coaching programs for fiction writers. Visit nicolemeier. com, that's M E I E R. And if you liked this episode, I'd love you to take a minute to leave a rating and review for this podcast. This will help more writers like you to discover the show and to get going on their writing journey.

[00:39:45] Nicole Meier: Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, happy writing, everyone.